I think the reason many young people feel pressured to be so successful now, apart from societal messaging and social media, is that late stage capitalism is so brutal. I'm currently a 22 year old honours student. I want to marry my girlfriend and live with her, buy a house, have a career. But these prospects seems so impossible, I can't save money if I want to spend it on rent, I can barely afford car insurance, there is so little job security, etc. So on top of the societal pressure to be successful, there's an intense material pressure as well. If I am not successful I literally have no material means to live what should be an ordinary life comfortably.
yup I’m stressing about getting into a good psychology graduate program so I can work a job that will at least let me have a car and a house like my dad. The problem really is not capitalism but who is in office and how they decide to spend our money flexing on russia in a war that is not our business. Until then you can expect things like this to become even more impossible
@@thomasgarcia8118 The problem is 100% capitalism. The only thing people winning at capitalism care about is making money, and the people who make the most money use that money to buy into our political systems to make sure our politicians support things that make uber rich people money, and they couldn't give a rats dick if we, the working class, are poor, desolate, struggling, starving, or dead as long as their money number goes up. Our system is built to idealize capitalism and tell us success is becoming like the uber rich, and caring for your fellow man is wholly incompatible with amassing the most material and monetary wealth by any cost, including but not limited to stepping on other people to climb the capitalist latter. To change things for the better we must inherently reject the system that worships material wealth, capitalism.
The message from F D at the end is so kind, the amount of learned insight that he brings to the table combined with his apparent want for guiding young people (or specifically men) through the dangerous pitfalls and pressures of capitalist society is very inspiring. Thanks so much for this episode!
If you have younger dudes in your life (brothers, cousins, kids) I think it's really useful to send them some vids by FD. The far right pipeline is so effective just from echochambers, and impressionable youth not knowing different ways of thinking.
I recently found FD through Sisyphus too. I really appreciate his insight and care towards people and men. It’s something that I think needs to be taught more too; that we all need a little care. That last bit too where FD talked about his friend really resonated with me too. I think it’s a common thing to look at others and be like “this isn’t what I thought life would be like.” I know I’ve thought that, but when you slow down and realize that nothing like that matters then you can move on and grow. Took me a while to figure that out and every now and then those feelings resurface. But mentally, I’m in a better position than I was back then. Either way, great podcast. Both of you have great insights and I really appreciate it!
I know it’s been said already but I can’t help echoing: FD’s message at the end is so comforting to me. I’m 29, male. I’m smart (honestly, really smart), physically capable, come from a wealthy family, have had great friends in my life, and I am utterly failing at life by most of the common metrics. People tell me, as often as I’m willing to open up about my problems, that I have nothing to worry about. But I do worry. I don’t feel like I have anything to be proud of. I don’t feel like I’ve ever succeeded at anything “adult”. I try to make other people’s lives better, but more often than not I’ve withdrawn from people recently to spare them my shame. I don’t even have anything to be pitied for because of my privilege. I believe deep down things will get better. For now, just to be told I’m normal is enough to get out of bed and keep following whatever path I’m on. Bless you both, thank you.
@@interro588 That doesn't even make sense. The odd username is because I think it's funny to appear as a mentally retarded child, and there's no point in the minute of work to change a profile picture
His last message at the end as an 18yo honestly dabbling and nearly getting sucked in by all this shit was some of the best advice I've gotten from anywhere on the internet, which I should rlly start to rely on less. Thanks boys!
Something else interesting about the brief topic of Greek status and idealized ancient society in terms of masculinity is that even though it has been used to validate white supremacist ideals since the rennaissance, most of those statues were white and seen as white because they were marble. But they actually used to have colour, and many just like the society they came from, were not white people.
@@incognito3990 its certainly an idea worth exploring but a little half baked i think. its not -entirely- about race this time although race has its part in discussion too. needs more nuance
I want to comment on how a large part of the manosphere can make men with dating issues worse. The redpill stuff can tend to further objectify and alienate women. Having female friends, being respectful and a good listener, being patient ect is not emphasized enough and sometimes discouraged
Idk. Some men have neurodivergent problems and it becomes much more difficult for them to improve their social skills and get a girl(eventually). It's Easier said than done
I also think that the manosphere exaggerates a lot of things about women and men in regards to dating as well. For example, they constantly say that women only love men because of money but from my own experiences and the sources that I’ve read I’m not so convinced that that’s the case. I think women value a partner’s income more than men, and men value a partner’s attractiveness more than women, but that’s not the only thing a lot of them value, or even really the main thing that a lot of them value.
@@hamishstewart5324 I think both manosphere and womanosphere have tendencies of doing that. They loathe the status quo and still want to reinforce it. It's an annoying paradox
@@hamishstewart5324 this is essentially my view of sex from different viewpoint.: Biological safety: either sex can be prone to STD and HIV Cultural: a lot of times religion tends to be used to justify how sex is viewed from each gender. Notice how the OT of the Bible had no problems with a man having sex with various women provided they are not close to his kin and are not married to another man. Sadly with women the onus was on them not to have sexual intercourse with any men. Marketing viewpoint: Sex is like a football game. The males are the scorers and the women are the defenders. Defenders must concede as little goals as possible whereas scorers must convert any chance they get. The goals in this regard represents how people view bodycounts. That's essentially the gender war in a nutshell
@@siphomnisi3842 I like how you put a lot of thought into that, but also you can think deeper. For example, in the religious example, don't stop at saying "yeah religion started that", start thinking about why it is that promiscuity is valued in men and not so much in women, why not accept the lifestyle of someone else? Why wouldn't promiscuity have unfavorable long term consequences in a man? Also if you think of the dating scene as some kind of competition, is it really that way or is that just the viewpoint of a lot of people? Why would a man be the winner when two people end up together? Do they not both have things to offer each other? Do they not both have reasons to be interested or not interested in someone? These are really important things to think about especially with the changing gender roles in today's society
Manosphere members claim to be logical with such ideas but all I hear and see are emotions and there is nothing wrong with that, that is normal and natural. It just seems like they are avoiding facing that fact. They are angry but before that, they are in pain.
23:39 That’s true, the left is more about betterment of everyone while the right is more about attacking the left. For example the left’s arguments revolve around actual issues such as climate change, women’s rights while the right is all about being on the defensive against such issues and topics. It’s weird.
I mean, some of them do cite sources for their claims, but the problem with a lot of these sources is that they’re either horribly inconclusive, contradict other sources, or only barely support their claims.
It's really odd that what you both are doing is something that hasn't been done... But it hasn't! It probably just wasn't the time yet. But now it is, and thank you so much for this!! :)
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As a gender non conforming trans "I don't care what you wear or how you present or your identity, are you going to come with me to get these berries: Is possibly the single best quote
Just a guess but leftists like to push the idea of people having their 'own truth' from peoples own experiences. This gives competing narratives and to be 'objective' would push the narrative of the most powerful group as the objective one (whites in this case) if you subscribe to the idea that everything comes down to group power dynamics. It kinda makes sense for very subjective issues but past that the white supremacy argument is just dumb and further waters down the meaning
Objectivity is part of the core ideology of white supremacy. The main thesis of white supremacy is being able to ‘objectively’ prove that one race is superior. Objectivity alone is not the issue it’s applying the principals of objectivity to things that will never have a universal understanding of the truth
It's not literal. There are many that preach "objectivity" but what they really mean is ignoring and casting aside the subjective experience of marginalised and oppressed peoples. They claim it's because of its subjectivity but they won't recognise that these issues arise from material oppressive structures in society.
As a moderate to liberal leaning 41 year old BM with 10 years Youth Development experience working in the "urban" community, and also been following manosphere content for probably 8 years now.... there are still a few holes in the brotha FD's understanding of the Black Manosphere male. These guys have no interest in embracing liberal political theory, economic theory, or social theory. They feel they were raised under generations of liberal/Democrat supporting families and they've not prospered from following that ideology. However, BW have thrived under these policies. I believe most economic indicators support their position. That is pretty much their main gripe. They feel black boys have been left behind. There are definitely some angry, bitter, "dusty" extremists over there, but once you get beyond all the groupthink, "mating struggles" and trauma bonding that's their main grievance. I just don't understand how you all (on both sides) with extreme Left or Right ideologies can continue to fight these battles in trenches... SMH ☮️⚖️☯️
They just intellectualized men, young men imparticular, be reactive in society, as opposed to being proactive in their own lives. Relative to the chaos of constructionism, gender essentialism is clearly the more politically passive of the two. And not so subtly blaming that 24 year old's unfortunate choice on the manosphere, ruined any value this discussion may have had.
I think the reason many young people feel pressured to be so successful now, apart from societal messaging and social media, is that late stage capitalism is so brutal. I'm currently a 22 year old honours student. I want to marry my girlfriend and live with her, buy a house, have a career. But these prospects seems so impossible, I can't save money if I want to spend it on rent, I can barely afford car insurance, there is so little job security, etc. So on top of the societal pressure to be successful, there's an intense material pressure as well. If I am not successful I literally have no material means to live what should be an ordinary life comfortably.
Man I fuckin feel you I’m in the exact same boat
yup I’m stressing about getting into a good psychology graduate program so I can work a job that will at least let me have a car and a house like my dad. The problem really is not capitalism but who is in office and how they decide to spend our money flexing on russia in a war that is not our business. Until then you can expect things like this to become even more impossible
@@thomasgarcia8118 The problem is 100% capitalism. The only thing people winning at capitalism care about is making money, and the people who make the most money use that money to buy into our political systems to make sure our politicians support things that make uber rich people money, and they couldn't give a rats dick if we, the working class, are poor, desolate, struggling, starving, or dead as long as their money number goes up. Our system is built to idealize capitalism and tell us success is becoming like the uber rich, and caring for your fellow man is wholly incompatible with amassing the most material and monetary wealth by any cost, including but not limited to stepping on other people to climb the capitalist latter. To change things for the better we must inherently reject the system that worships material wealth, capitalism.
The message from F D at the end is so kind, the amount of learned insight that he brings to the table combined with his apparent want for guiding young people (or specifically men) through the dangerous pitfalls and pressures of capitalist society is very inspiring. Thanks so much for this episode!
If you have younger dudes in your life (brothers, cousins, kids) I think it's really useful to send them some vids by FD. The far right pipeline is so effective just from echochambers, and impressionable youth not knowing different ways of thinking.
Love this comment
I recently found FD through Sisyphus too. I really appreciate his insight and care towards people and men. It’s something that I think needs to be taught more too; that we all need a little care.
That last bit too where FD talked about his friend really resonated with me too. I think it’s a common thing to look at others and be like “this isn’t what I thought life would be like.” I know I’ve thought that, but when you slow down and realize that nothing like that matters then you can move on and grow. Took me a while to figure that out and every now and then those feelings resurface. But mentally, I’m in a better position than I was back then.
Either way, great podcast. Both of you have great insights and I really appreciate it!
I know it’s been said already but I can’t help echoing: FD’s message at the end is so comforting to me. I’m 29, male. I’m smart (honestly, really smart), physically capable, come from a wealthy family, have had great friends in my life, and I am utterly failing at life by most of the common metrics. People tell me, as often as I’m willing to open up about my problems, that I have nothing to worry about. But I do worry. I don’t feel like I have anything to be proud of. I don’t feel like I’ve ever succeeded at anything “adult”. I try to make other people’s lives better, but more often than not I’ve withdrawn from people recently to spare them my shame. I don’t even have anything to be pitied for because of my privilege. I believe deep down things will get better. For now, just to be told I’m normal is enough to get out of bed and keep following whatever path I’m on. Bless you both, thank you.
Can I ask why you wouldn't want to swap paths if you are unhappy with the one you are on?
"I'm smart (honestly, really smart)." Bro you probably aren't that smart
@@xX-Frotnite-Player--Xx Your default profile picture and odd username also is giving the same feelings too.
@@interro588 That doesn't even make sense. The odd username is because I think it's funny to appear as a mentally retarded child, and there's no point in the minute of work to change a profile picture
@@interro588 so profile pictures and youtube names are the measure of intellect?
His last message at the end as an 18yo honestly dabbling and nearly getting sucked in by all this shit was some of the best advice I've gotten from anywhere on the internet, which I should rlly start to rely on less. Thanks boys!
Damn, two of my favorite creators in one vid. FD's channel is truly one of the best on this site
Something else interesting about the brief topic of Greek status and idealized ancient society in terms of masculinity is that even though it has been used to validate white supremacist ideals since the rennaissance, most of those statues were white and seen as white because they were marble. But they actually used to have colour, and many just like the society they came from, were not white people.
But what colors were used to represent the statues skin tones? White to olive. Not to create conflict, but it’s a self-defeating analysis.
@@incognito3990 its certainly an idea worth exploring but a little half baked i think. its not -entirely- about race this time although race has its part in discussion too. needs more nuance
I’d say finally, but I wouldn’t want to rush greatness!!
Omggggg I have been dying for this discourse between you two!
Thanks for taking the time to have this discussion!
The feeling of emptiness & lacking fulfillment & financial stability is very mentally crippling who relates?
U guys r two of my favorite creators on TH-cam! So glad this happened lol
This is the collab i didnt know i wanted
I want to comment on how a large part of the manosphere can make men with dating issues worse. The redpill stuff can tend to further objectify and alienate women. Having female friends, being respectful and a good listener, being patient ect is not emphasized enough and sometimes discouraged
Idk. Some men have neurodivergent problems and it becomes much more difficult for them to improve their social skills and get a girl(eventually).
It's Easier said than done
I also think that the manosphere exaggerates a lot of things about women and men in regards to dating as well. For example, they constantly say that women only love men because of money but from my own experiences and the sources that I’ve read I’m not so convinced that that’s the case. I think women value a partner’s income more than men, and men value a partner’s attractiveness more than women, but that’s not the only thing a lot of them value, or even really the main thing that a lot of them value.
@@hamishstewart5324 I think both manosphere and womanosphere have tendencies of doing that. They loathe the status quo and still want to reinforce it. It's an annoying paradox
@@hamishstewart5324 this is essentially my view of sex from different viewpoint.:
Biological safety: either sex can be prone to STD and HIV
Cultural: a lot of times religion tends to be used to justify how sex is viewed from each gender. Notice how the OT of the Bible had no problems with a man having sex with various women provided they are not close to his kin and are not married to another man. Sadly with women the onus was on them not to have sexual intercourse with any men.
Marketing viewpoint: Sex is like a football game. The males are the scorers and the women are the defenders. Defenders must concede as little goals as possible whereas scorers must convert any chance they get. The goals in this regard represents how people view bodycounts. That's essentially the gender war in a nutshell
@@siphomnisi3842 I like how you put a lot of thought into that, but also you can think deeper. For example, in the religious example, don't stop at saying "yeah religion started that", start thinking about why it is that promiscuity is valued in men and not so much in women, why not accept the lifestyle of someone else? Why wouldn't promiscuity have unfavorable long term consequences in a man? Also if you think of the dating scene as some kind of competition, is it really that way or is that just the viewpoint of a lot of people? Why would a man be the winner when two people end up together? Do they not both have things to offer each other? Do they not both have reasons to be interested or not interested in someone? These are really important things to think about especially with the changing gender roles in today's society
Manosphere members claim to be logical with such ideas but all I hear and see are emotions and there is nothing wrong with that, that is normal and natural. It just seems like they are avoiding facing that fact. They are angry but before that, they are in pain.
23:39 That’s true, the left is more about betterment of everyone while the right is more about attacking the left. For example the left’s arguments revolve around actual issues such as climate change, women’s rights while the right is all about being on the defensive against such issues and topics. It’s weird.
I mean, some of them do cite sources for their claims, but the problem with a lot of these sources is that they’re either horribly inconclusive, contradict other sources, or only barely support their claims.
two of the most soothing voices I have heard
It's really odd that what you both are doing is something that hasn't been done... But it hasn't! It probably just wasn't the time yet. But now it is, and thank you so much for this!! :)
My dream colab has FINALLY come true!!!!
Ya, this is a colab I wasn't expecting but am really happy happened.
Two of my favorite TH-camrs! Can’t wait to listen tomorrow.
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Goddamn that ending Monologue by FD got through my heart fr fr
Damn bruh, didn’t expect this even collab, though I should have looking at the recent content. Either way, I’m all for it.
God bless everyone and have a good day
Oh wow, I love both of you - today is a good fuckin' day
Great video, thank you both.
As a gender non conforming trans
"I don't care what you wear or how you present or your identity, are you going to come with me to get these berries:
Is possibly the single best quote
Thank you so much for sharing is conversation! You guys are incredibly smart and the topics covered are so important!! I'm so grateful you exist 🫶
What a great message! Loved this
what a collaboration 😍
im here for this colab.
This is a really great episode
damn didnt expect this
This was a long time coming.
very based talking points
excellent discussion!
F.D Goated 🦅
6:48 Nathalie/Contrapoints is 33, but let's just keep it at her wisdom and poise making her look older in a good way ;)
11:30 same dude. I kinda like our Canadian sad Kermit boi. But his politics and religion leaking into them. Yeesh no thanks
w ty for the content
I didn't know there were podcasts!!
Now this is a crossover.
fabulous vid!
Did FD say that objectivity was white supremacy? If so can someone explain to me why?
This stood out to me as well. I don't follow FD and would like to hear where this comes from.
Just a guess but leftists like to push the idea of people having their 'own truth' from peoples own experiences. This gives competing narratives and to be 'objective' would push the narrative of the most powerful group as the objective one (whites in this case) if you subscribe to the idea that everything comes down to group power dynamics. It kinda makes sense for very subjective issues but past that the white supremacy argument is just dumb and further waters down the meaning
Objectivity is part of the core ideology of white supremacy. The main thesis of white supremacy is being able to ‘objectively’ prove that one race is superior. Objectivity alone is not the issue it’s applying the principals of objectivity to things that will never have a universal understanding of the truth
@@mpqrstv4242 pretty sure it was a joke lmfao
It's not literal. There are many that preach "objectivity" but what they really mean is ignoring and casting aside the subjective experience of marginalised and oppressed peoples. They claim it's because of its subjectivity but they won't recognise that these issues arise from material oppressive structures in society.
dynamic duo
omgg!!! i’m so excited for this
As a moderate to liberal leaning 41 year old BM with 10 years Youth Development experience working in the "urban" community, and also been following manosphere content for probably 8 years now.... there are still a few holes in the brotha FD's understanding of the Black Manosphere male.
These guys have no interest in embracing liberal political theory, economic theory, or social theory. They feel they were raised under generations of liberal/Democrat supporting families and they've not prospered from following that ideology. However, BW have thrived under these policies. I believe most economic indicators support their position.
That is pretty much their main gripe. They feel black boys have been left behind. There are definitely some angry, bitter, "dusty" extremists over there, but once you get beyond all the groupthink, "mating struggles" and trauma bonding that's their main grievance.
I just don't understand how you all (on both sides) with extreme Left or Right ideologies can continue to fight these battles in trenches... SMH ☮️⚖️☯️
Nice fam. Definitely nice.
YUHHHH
Ayyy, Fiq.
Ambitous crossover
I AM A MAAAAAAN RAAAAAAHHHHHHH
I concur
great interviewing skills 👍
Can you do a video on Han Ryner!?
Woah...
*signifier
Interesting…
Would you consider talking to someone with differing opinions on this next. Maybe Uberboyo?
cope
mega cheeseburger
W
Sheesh
hi
you should talk with destiny sometime he has some cool ideas
Can you guys discuss feminism
They just intellectualized men, young men imparticular, be reactive in society, as opposed to being proactive in their own lives. Relative to the chaos of constructionism, gender essentialism is clearly the more politically passive of the two. And not so subtly blaming that 24 year old's unfortunate choice on the manosphere, ruined any value this discussion may have had.
Henlo
Oh no.
Meh the fd videos about debate are so trashy. Imagine not being able to defend your ideas in debate
🐔🐣🐓🐥🍳
Syphilis 69