Naples Departure in the Cessna 414A | 414A vs 421C | Answering a Subscriber Question
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 เม.ย. 2017
- Join us as we depart APF in Naples bound for home in NY! We even answer a viewer question along the way! Like and subscribe to keep the videos coming!
Good CRM, guys. Very professional 414 two men ops and good infos about the plane. I started my flying career on C421 & C414 and I did my first 500 hours mostly on the Golden Eagle, single pilot ops in europe flying out of Switzerland. I had two engine failures on the 421 (one in cruise and one during the descent). Upgraded later to Piper Cheyenne and Jets. The 414 / 421 is quite a handful of aircraft for beginners. More demanding than any Citations or Lears and definitely more demanding than a 737 copilots job...
Thank's for the video, it brings back great memories from the late 1980s.
Regards from the 747-8 cockpit.
Renato.
Thanks for the upload.
From a former airline pilot...used to flying on other people's money :).....good choice for the 414A....cost per mission.
90%+ of the performance at a fraction of the 421's cost....that's good reasoning.
Great video! I only have one revision, the single engine service ceiling at ISA on the 421C is slightly over 20,000ft at 6,800lbs. At 6,200lbs and ISA it’s almost 23,000ft. Being a 787 Captain/Instructor/APD, I think about engine failures constantly, especially living out west. This was a huge part of my buying decision as was the quiet cabin. Both are great airplanes. I will admit, the negative torque thing sucks, but I’m enjoying my airplane. Thanks for the video.
The sound of those twins is music to my ears! Working my way toward multi, hope to capt. a 414 someday....beautifully done sir!
Hello from NZL! Just joined your channel and enjoying flying along in your 414A. A beautiful bird. I spotted your Citizen Blue Angels Aviator watch. I've got a slightly earlier model. Looking forward to watching all your videos. Cheers, David.
thank you very much !
For this video
Beautiful quality shooting cockpit.
Super this flight.
Very good speech during radio communications.
Thank You, Allane!
Great video brother, God bless you.
WE WANT TO SEE MORE 414 ACTION!!! :) Seriously though I love your videos and my father and I are about to transition into a 414A as soon as I finish off my PPL in our Bonanza. Would love to see more
Fantastic CRM, the CFI in me loves it!
Thanks Jordan! Glad to have you aboard!
Damn, very professional display of airmanship S4. Great video.
Thanks SMaze! I'm going to try and get the cameras going again soon!
Just stumbled across your channel in the search results. Great videos. As a fellow aviator it's nice to fly along in the cockpit. Keep the videos coming!
Thank You for your kind words! Comments like these motivate me to keep new content coming!
Very very nice. Thank you for sharing..!
Great video. Must be nice flying with your dad.
Hey! Thanks for reaching out. I wouldn't have it any other way!
Glad I found your channel, good stuff. Looking forward to more. Subbed.
Thanks for your kind words Scott. I'm always looking to my subscribers for content suggestions, so don't be afraid to make a request!
Thank you very much for answering my question.. As I recall, everyone is wearing headphones on all of the videos of 414A and 421C planes I've seen, so like you said, in almost all cases the 414A with your Ram upgrades makes the most sense.
By the way, nomoyoyo came about when I decided to stop yoyo dieting. No more yoyo dieting for me.
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my question.. Had I realized you were in Naples, I would have driven out to the airport to see your plane. I'm lucky enough to be a snowbird, and Winter in Naples..
No problem! Thanks for asking it! We're down in Naples very, very regularly. We have business interests there, as well as a winter residence ourselves. You're more than welcome to come see the airplane in person the next time we're down there!
enjoyed your video, i currently own and fly a vtail bonanza but would love to fly a 414 personally its one of the best looking planes in SKY .
Hey Chase! Thanks for the comment! Bonanza is such a SWEET flying airplane. And we agree with your opinion of the 414!
Great Vid S4 I have about 14 hours logged so I'm working on my GA licenses maybe one day I will be at you're level. Really nice 414 by the way and thanks for always being so informative.
Hey ckelley! Thanks for the kind words. Keep up the good work! We all started in your shoes!
Hey! Thanks so much for your kind words. I always try to be as informative as possible. Keep your eyes on the prize and you'll go far!
I have owned both aircraft, the 414A with the Ram conversation and the Cessna 421C. The 421C has much better performance, payload and higher ceiling. I could never get the Cessna 414AW (with the winglets), with the Robertson Flap conversation, get it fly faster the 195 kts...
However, routinely I get the 421C at 75% power to 207- 220 kts. It's smoother, quieter and more comfortable in flight. I get about 42 to 45 gals per hour, and better if at 55 to 65% power. The 421C feels more solid than the 414A in flight. The takeoff performance is poor in the 414A, on a high density altitude days, I would need to pitch the 414A down increase the airspeed to climb out at blue line. The 421C climbs out at blue line at 1800 to 2000 ft/min. If it's a cool day (60 to 68 degrees) and light, I can climb out at 2500 to 2600 ft/min easily. So really the Cessna 421C is much better overall aircraft between the two.
Hey Dale. Thanks for the comment. We're in our 23rd year of 414AW ownership, and as a result of our consulting business, have more hours than we can count in the RAM series Chancellors, and the 421C. A 414A that won't go any faster than 195 knots is a poorly rigged airplane. Can't say I've ever flown one that slow, and I've flown at least two dozen of them.
The RAM IV and RAM VII are within a few knots of each other at any given altitude and power setting, and at 70% power, each crosses the 200 knot mark right around 15,000ft. Which, for what it's worth, is exactly where the 421C crosses the same threshold at 70% power. In the low 20's, the RAM 414A's and 421C's are all 215-225 knot airplanes if they're set up properly. From my experience, whether it's cruise performance or takeoff performance, the two airplanes perform virtually identically. The only objective benefit to a 421C is the few extra hundred pounds of useful load. Everything else (smoother, quieter, etc.) is a subjective metric.
The practical high DA performance of each airplane is fairly comparable, but on high DA days, I'd rather be flying the 414A. What the 414A lacks in horsepower, it makes up for in lift. Regardless of the DA, each airplane is still going to make rated power. The old cautionary expression, "you can turbocharge the engine, but you can't turbocharge the wing" is on full display here. The 414A has considerably more wing on it than the 421C does, which is why the RAM 414A's published takeoff data, at any given pressure altitude, is *better* than the 421C's, and also why the single engine service ceiling is over 6,000ft higher than the 421C's. Have a look at the published data on RAM's website. Nobody has flight tested these airplanes more than they have, and a RAM 414A outperforms the 421C in a number of key areas. It's 300lbs lighter with a bigger wing, and only a marginal horsepower reduction.
Ultimately, the market speaks for itself. There's a reason why, for nearly two decades, the 414A fetches $80-$100K more in the market than an otherwise identical 421C does. Buyers have come to realize that for 95% of people and their mission profiles, the 414A does everything a 421C does, and it does it more efficiently. They're both fantastic airplanes. From my experience, having managed 414A/421C acquisitions for countless clients over the years, there is most definitely a type of buyer who's better suited with the 421C. But, compared to buyers who are better off with a Chancellor, they're the minority.
New subscriber.. I'll start by saying i enjoy your videos keep it up.. furthermore, most GA pilots only fly naturally aspirated engines, so in a future video can you tell what you do differently in terms of preflight actions and inflight adjustments and monitoring
Hey MrBnuu. Thanks so much for your kind words and positive feedback. I can absolutely talk about this a little bit. There aren't too many preflight actions in terms of turbocharged engines. The only real "preflight" check that occurs for the turbochargers is simply observing that they kick in and make boost on the takeoff roll. You can really feel them start making boost around 35 inches MP. If a wastegate isn't working properly, you'll get an underboost or overboost. I'd be happy to go a little further in depth in my next video!
YOU INSPIRE MY SENTIENT SELF TO PERFECT MY TAKEOFF BRIEFING, FELLOW HUMAN.
I am not a pilot just an aviation enthusiast find your explanation very interesting .
Thanks Michael!
Having a copilot is great aint it? Awesome video!
Especially when its your dad and he's as knowledgeable and experienced as he is! Thanks so much!
As you said, the 421 engines cost 30-40% more to overhaul. Upkeep is more too.
Thank you for the great video. We have a 421B and I can't agree more with what you say in this. The only thing you didn't mention is the 421 carries more payload than the 414 which has never been known a heavy hauler.
Thanks for the kind words Adam! Personally, I always thought the 421B was the sexiest Twin Cessna ever built!
Thanks for these vids. I always dreamed of operating a cabin class Cessna piston but it's not viable in Europe. It being in FS2020 now made me revisit your clips. Well done and informative. Are you guys still flying it? Don't see much activity on the trackers. How do you keep a plane like this in the air with so much competition from low cost and single turbines these days. All the best from Belgium!
Sweet, some more Twin Cessna flying! Was pleasantly surprised to see this show up today - nice job on the video, great production quality.
Edit to add: That pre-takeoff briefing is absolutely awesome and I want to incorporate it into my ops. Any chance you could write out the consideration items?
Absolutely! So the briefing has three main parts. Part one is the "standard departure briefing," part two is the engine out briefing, and part three is the conditions/non-standard items briefing. So the standard departure briefing is simple, and can be adapted for use in any piston powered airplane or turboprop. The airspeed referred to is the rotation speed, as these airplanes don't have a takeoff decision speed. (Rotation speed is essentially always one in the same with v1)
Standard Departure Briefing:
Anything below 90 knots, we abort.
Over 90 knots with sufficient runway remaining, land straight ahead or abort the takeoff.
Over 90 knots with INsufficient runway remaining, we will treat the problem as an inflight emergency, run the checklist, do the memory items, and return to the airport as soon as possible.
Finish up by stating the conditions for return. In this case, it was an IFR departure on a clearance, but if we had an issue and needed to come back, it would have been a VFR return. Had the airport actually been IFR, it would have been verbalized as "IFR departure IFR return, radar vectors RNAV runway 5 approach."
Engine Out Briefing:
Brief the memory items.
Gear up, flaps up, forward forward forward (Throttles, props, and mixtures)
Identify, dead foot, dead engine
Verify with the throttle
Feather
Maintain directional control
Pitch to the blue line or better
Its also very important as part of the engine out briefing to establish who's going to actually fly the airplane if it happens for real. This is especially true if you're flying with an instructor, or as the junior guy, as I am.
Finally, we have the conditions/non-standard items briefing, which addresses three primary points:
Runway condition
Terrain considerations
Changes to SOPs
So for example "Dry runway, no contaminants, no terrain considerations, no changes to operating procedures."
You can change any component of that sentence to reflect the actual conditions.
Lastly, and most importantly, always ask the other guy if he has anything to add or any questions about the briefing. So many pilots either deliver a briefing that leaves a few bases untouched, like how are we getting back to the airport if we need to come back? Or who's going to advise ATC if we have an emergency? Always ask the other guy if he has any questions, and never be afraid to pose a question to someone elses briefing. A solid takeoff briefing can mean the difference between an emergency being a non-event, or a total disaster.
Awesome, thanks so much man. I always enjoy seeing how you and your dad fly the 414A. I fly a 1977 414 (short nose) now and have plenty of experience in 310s, a 340A, and a 421C and we always had different briefings but yours is probably the best that I've seen, so I wanted to take some creative license and steal it! Always looking for a better way ya know? Appreciate the quick response and looking forward to more.
Any time brother. Thanks for following us!
Nice plane, I'd love to have one. I flew the 402's for Naples Airlines back in the 70's. It had the turboed engines but not pressurized. That 414 would be like a cadillac version of a 402. The executive interior makes more sense. That 402 with 9 passengers plus the pilot would be in trouble if it lost an engine after takeoff. We always worried about that.
Thanks Jason! The 402C is basically an unpressurized 414A. Both are excellent airplanes, and the 402C has served some operators extremely well. Cape Air is a fantastic example of that. They've been flying them since the 80's, and when it came time to start to look for a replacement a few years ago, they had to have Tecnam design an entirely new airplane specifically for them! That speaks volumes for the 402C, and the entire Twin Cessna lineup. Bulletproof, reliable airplanes that get the job done!
Funny you say that. I always thought the sexiest Twin Cessna ever built was the 421B. The high stance and the tip tanks really give it a look! It's also probably the most expensive Twin Cessna to own of all of them. The geared engines, plus the electric gear, older pressurization system, etc. I can't think of a more expensive Twin Cessna from a maintenance standpoint.
Great video, haven't flown for years, so I enjoy riding along with the two of you!
Thank You! We're happy to have you along!
Towards the end of your video, you mention the quieter cabin of the 421. I've never flown in a 414, but I do remember comparing the 421B with a 340, both of which I flew in within a few weeks of each other a few years ago. I was amazed at the difference in cabin noise in these two twin-engine, pressurized, cabin class Cessnas. The 421 was much, much quieter. Of course, I don't know if a quieter cabin is worth an extra $50k per overhaul... ;-)
By the way, I am a pilot living in Naples. I'd love to meet you guys sometime when you're in town. Lunch at Michelbob's is on me, if you'd be interested. Safe flying, and keep the greasy side down...
Heath Jarvis I’ll keep that in mind pal! Would be great to meet up and talk airplanes. The 414 is a bit quieter than the 340, as the props are a bit further away from the cabin and cockpit. But the 421 is really, really quiet. Still not worth the added cost of operation in my opinion, and there’s a reason why 414A’s hold their value much better than 421C’s.
S4 Aviator I saw your airplane sitting on the ramp today when I flew to lunch and back in the Seminole that I rented from Naples Air Center. We flew to Venice.
Look me up on Facebook either under my name or under the group I manage called SW Florida Flyers. Send me a friend request and maybe we can meet up for lunch soon.
Yeah, dad has had the airplane down there on business for a while. I'll actually be coming down there this week to fly it back to NY if you'd like to meet up and see the airplane.
I’ve owned and flown 2 421C’s with thousands of hours in each, and a 425 as well. Had total of 2 engine failures in 5000 hrs. 1 in 80’s where Cessna decided to use piston wrist pins from Mexico. Engine literally destroyed it self in flight. I simply continued on to a suitable airport w maintenance facility. Flys great on 1 engine. Next one was last year, engine was a few hours past it’s TBO. VALVE CAME APART and killed the next cylinder as well as Turbocharger. Was at FL230, whole family on board, defended a bit and continued on to Myrtle Beach, since I had my clubs w me. New engine and about 3 weeks. Mine has 4 blade MTs and it’s the quietest 421C there is!
Pilot (former CRJ and Challenger 850 pilot ~ 10,000 hrs) and current B8.5 S4 owner. Car has 40k miles, so I just did the APR Stage 1. Makes it a different car. Amazing upgrade for $1300. PM if you want to know more of my experience with it.
I'll definitely reach out soon! Same here, B8.5, 2014 to be specific, Moonlight Blue, black fine nappa, tech, the works. Only thing its missing is B&O. I bought mine with 3,000 miles CPO, now im at 46,000. So Im holding off on APR just because I have an amazing warranty to 100,000 miles.
Have a 2013, Ice Silver, Alcantara. It was a VW Corp car with 6,000 when I bought it. Kept it stock. I have a 2000 NSX that I modified for the track. When I was at Comair, I was at Mid Ohio or Putnam Park every other weekend. The Audi I swore I would keep stock. I am waiting for the S5 Sportback, so I took it in to an Audi Service shop for the oil and DSG service and they were APR dealers. They talked me into the Stage 1 and OMG it makes it a different car. On the way home, I kept thinking I should have done this day 1.
Greetings from MMSP
Great video, and comparison between 414 and 421. Do you have an idea how they compare with climb performance? Does the extra 50 horses give you a significantly better climb rate? Also, how are the geared engines when descending on cold days? Are they more susceptible to shock cooling, OR, do they run a little cooler to begin with due to the gearing?
Now to check out some of your other vids.
Alfred Wessex Hey Alfred. Thanks for your kind words! Any advantage in climb performance between the two airplanes would go to the 421, but the difference would be negligible. While the 421C does have the higher horsepower engines, it's also heavier. The geared engines aren't any more susceptible to shock cooling, as they run at basically the same EGTs and CHTs as the direct drive engines. The power settings, with the exception of RPM, are very similar in the two airplanes, so the engines are basically working just as hard in each airplane. The props just turn substantially slower in the 421 to make the same power. The only real advantage to this is an extremely quiet cabin. Which isn't too big a deal for most operators, as the cabin of the 414A isn't noisy to begin with. Power reductions in the descent in both airplanes must be made very slowly and deliberately if you want your engines and especially your turbochargers to last. Our rule of thumb for power reduction in the descent is no faster than one inch of manifold pressure per minute. The geared engines can, however, end up in a situation where the propeller is actually driving the engine, if you are going too fast with too low a power setting. This is called negative torque, and it puts tremendous strain on the reduction gear box by loading the gears in the wrong direction, and ultimately reduces its life. Just one more thing to think about with the geared engines that isn't an issue with direct drive engines. They're both great airplanes. We just feel, as many 414A owners do, that the benefits offered by the 421C aren't worth the significant increase in overhaul cost and slight increase in fuel consumption, and that the 414A will do everything a 421C will do for a lot less money, under just about every circumstance. If you really think that your typical mission requires a 421, and a 414 just won't cut it, you're probably not actually a 421 buyer. You're probably a Conquest buyer.
S4 - in a 421 descent you mention a recommended 1" MP per 1 minute (or more) - - I actually do 1" every 2 min (yes I'm conservative). But in avoiding negative torque, I've never heard a formula spelled out given (as you point out) you don't want to be diving too fast in too low a power setting. Do you have a recommended formula? Much appreciated video and discussion (PS I drive a 421B)
Always enjoy your videos and this is a repeat viewing. Question, why not C340 in the mix of C414A vs C421C?? Stay safe.
@billnga: Love your videos as well btw... S4 Aviator has some detailed analysis in comment threads in other videos... he basically said that the C340 is almost the same money to operate, but is much smaller and hence they didn't consider it. It sorta makes sense.. the engine overhaul cost the C340 is very similar to the C414... both models have similar pressurization and landing gear systems AFAIK... so you don't win much on the maintenance game stepping down to it.
Thank you and thanks for watching. Since the post above, I have viewed more of his videos and saw the one with his father where they discuss why the 414. Your analysis is good and I tend to agree. In selecting any airframe, it tends to be mission focused and for them, the 414 fits their intended missions. I always thought the 414 was a better option to the 421 because of the GTSIOs care and feeding. Thanks again!!
Enjoyed the video. I was an avionics technician many years ago. I am surprised to see the 400 autopilot still being used. Do you like the 400 system?
skeptical2649 Hey skeptical. Thanks for the comment. Plenty of 400 and 300 series Twin Cessna's are still flying with the 400 autopilot, but ours is actually an 800B. While it certainly doesn't compare to newer Garmin and Stec autopilots, it does a good job and we have few complaints about it!
very nice video, how long did it take to do your brief on this plane with confidence & speed? Seems like a lot to remember...
Hey Paul. It doesn't take too long, and the briefing can be adapted for just about any airplane. Ill break it down. So the briefing has three main parts. Part one is the "standard departure briefing," part two is the engine out briefing, and part three is the conditions/non-standard items briefing. So the standard departure briefing is simple, and can be adapted for use in any piston powered airplane or turboprop. The airspeed referred to is the rotation speed, as these airplanes don't have a takeoff decision speed. (Rotation speed is essentially always one in the same with v1)
Standard Departure Briefing:
Anything below 90 knots, we abort.
Over 90 knots with sufficient runway remaining, land straight ahead or abort the takeoff.
Over 90 knots with INsufficient runway remaining, we will treat the problem as an inflight emergency, run the checklist, do the memory items, and return to the airport as soon as possible.
Finish up by stating the conditions for return. In this case, it was an IFR departure on a clearance, but if we had an issue and needed to come back, it would have been a VFR return. Had the airport actually been IFR, it would have been verbalized as "IFR departure IFR return, radar vectors RNAV runway 5 approach."
Engine Out Briefing:
Brief the memory items.
Gear up, flaps up, forward forward forward (Throttles, props, and mixtures)
Identify, dead foot, dead engine
Verify with the throttle
Feather
Maintain directional control
Pitch to the blue line or better
Its also very important as part of the engine out briefing to establish who's going to actually fly the airplane if it happens for real. This is especially true if you're flying with an instructor, or as the junior guy, as I am.
Finally, we have the conditions/non-standard items briefing, which addresses three primary points:
Runway condition
Terrain considerations
Changes to SOPs
So for example "Dry runway, no contaminants, no terrain considerations, no changes to operating procedures."
You can change any component of that sentence to reflect the actual conditions.
Lastly, and most importantly, always ask the other guy if he has anything to add or any questions about the briefing. So many pilots either deliver a briefing that leaves a few bases untouched, like how are we getting back to the airport if we need to come back? Or who's going to advise ATC if we have an emergency? Always ask the other guy if he has any questions, and never be afraid to pose a question to someone elses briefing. A solid takeoff briefing can mean the difference between an emergency being a non-event, or a total disaster.
414 vs. 421 is almost a Ford vs. Chevrolet preference. In my case, due to the passenger load, which is my normal charter, the quietness of the cabin is golden. The viscous dampers make a world of difference in the sound levels. And I have to admit that I love the 375 hp. My normal flight is usually close to 1,000 miles, too. So for my purposes, the 421 made better sense, even with its higher fuel burn.
I agree with everything you said. One isn't any better than the other, they just suit two different people. We charter our airplane as well, and honestly the 414A is probably the more profitable airplane. The 421C doesn't retail in the charter market for any more money than the 414A, but costs more money to run. Passengers love how quiet the 414A is, but only if they haven't flown in a 421C!
Lots of the 414As seem to be a quarter of a million higher than the 421s. But the prices these days are over the moon. I'm still in the B models myself. I'm probably older than your dad, so maybe it's just old school stuff; I like the tip tanks and don't really care for the hydraulic gear and uncovered wells. As the old saying goes, so sue me. I also love the 411. Owned 2 of those over the years.
He'll be 70 in March. The 414A has held its value better than the 421C for sure. Same airplane with basically the same performance but with much lower operating costs. I always thought the 421B was one of the sexiest Twin Cessna's ever built. Everyone likes what they're used to. Honestly, the wet wing fuel system in the later airplanes is less maintenance intensive and simpler to operate than the earlier airplanes with the tip tanks. Same goes for the hydraulic gear. Its significantly beefier, cycles much faster, and costs significantly less to maintain. No recurring inspections or recurring rerigs. Not having the inboard gear doors allows the hydraulic gear to have an insanely high gear extension speed of 177KIAS. You may be the first person I've ever talked to who has any real experience with the 411. It was always a bit of an oddball and I've never actually met anyone who's flown one.
S4 Aviator Yeah, in January I'll turn 78. I take a younger co-pilot on charter flights. That's just selfishness on my part. Still love to fly. 177 is a nice gear speed, but I can live with the 165 for my B. My early years were spent as an Air Force fighter pilot, and hydraulic problems were fairly common. Guess that's where my aversion came from. The 411 is a great plane. The original 421 was a direct descendant of the 411, basically a pressurized 411 with 750 hp instead of 680. The 411 is a very maneuverable plane, a real pilot's airplane. My first one would give me an honest 2,000 fpm climb, even when at 90% of gross, gross being 6,500. Loved to fly, hated to slow down. I commonly used cowl flaps to help come down. Same fl 250 ceiling, just had to use oxygen masks. I commonly flew at 12,000 to avoid the masks. One thing to remember, she doesn't float on landing. Keep power on during the flare, because she will fall. Wings are only 39 feet and change, less than 40 ft. I'm looking at what would be my third, a beautiful example in New Mexico. Only thing stopping me is my age. We'll see.
Great video! I'm assuming you were 100 under gross because you had pax on board as well? How was the entire flight?
Yes! Four people and bags with the tanks topped off! The rest of the flight was fantastic and uneventful. One stop in NC on our way back up to NY, and Dad flew the second leg.
I'm new to your channel. As a 60 yo student, what is your mission with this aircraft?
Loving that 414A.
Hey, you're ADSB compliant!
Just wondering, is this comparison between 421 and 414 include the cost of converting to a RAM VI? If you took the stock -520NB's of the original 414A (with 310 HP) would the comparison be the same? Useful load? My opinion has always been that the comparison changes when you make the outlay for the RAM conversion. Now there's only a 80 horsepower differential between RAM VI 414A and 421...when it used to be 130 hp differential. Just trying to keep "apples to apples." Separately, I do think the 421 is a Cadillac...with the props turning at only 1700 or 1800 RPM there's a highly pronounced reduction in noise compared to the 414 turning at 2300 or 2400 RPM.
If you factor out the conversion cost, the 414A becomes even more economical in comparison to the 421C. This isn't a factor for most operators, as they (and we) bought the airplane with the conversion already done. Simply put, the 421C costs more money to run and basically does the same thing a 414A does. Minimal performance difference in the grand scheme. The super quiet cabin is a great plus to the 421C, but this is, again, a relative thing. The 421C is quieter than the 414A, no doubt, but that begs the question of how loud the 414A is. We do not have headset jacks or an intercom for the passenger cabin in the 414A, so none of our passengers ever wear headsets. Most are actually quite surprised with how comfortable the noise level is in the cabin. The noise level is quite a bit higher in the cockpit, since the cockpit is closer to the propellers.
S4 Aviator Understood! But the 414A was quite a different aircraft with the 310hp engines....barely a 1500 lb useful load. The RAM conversion makes it closer to the 421. See how many W&B revisions upward there are in gross weight since the RAM conversion, vortex generators, etc.
You're right, it is a fairly quiet cabin. Try this: turn the synchrophaser so that it's louder in the cockpit--it'll be far quieter in the cabin. When you turn the sync such that the cockpit is quieter, the cabin will be louder.
I don’t mean to be critical but is right seat/dad a multi-I giving dual? If not, there were multiple instances where the pilot monitoring seemed to act as the pilot flying. Unless you were receiving dual, I was not a huge fan of some of the aspects of CRM. I subscribed and noted this on another video also. On the plus side, I’ll adopt your very thorough pre-takeoff briefing in my C441 and your explanation of it to another commenter was excellent.
Rob Ryan Thanks for the comment and subscription Rob. In this instance in this older video (and probably at least one other video on my channel) I was in fact receiving instruction in the airplane. This was prior to my insurance authorization in the airplane, and I was really lucky to have an awesome dad with 5000 hours and 40 years of twin Cessna experience get me up to speed in the 414. Both of us are flight instructors, and we both hold ATP’s with multiple jet type ratings. To be completely honest, you’re the first person in the 6 year history of this channel that’s ever had anything negative to say about our CRM. Thanks again!
I was browsing through controller looking for an aircraft for a future purchase. Then I stumbled on your yearly cost video pertaining to the 414. After a few gulps and fainting spells I decided on the 414. Would you happen to know the costs of a fairchild Merlin 3??
Hey Michael. Congrats on your decision to purchase a 414. You’ll love the airplane. I can’t say exactly what the costs will be on a Merlin III, but it is a notoriously expensive airplane to maintain. If you’re looking for that kind of speed and range, a Cessna 441 or an MU-2 would be a much better buy. Keep in mind though, doing hot sections on an airplane like that will cost as much as an overhaul on a 414, and overhauling them will cost as much as buying a 414. Turbine engines add reliability and performance, but at a cost. If a starter goes bad in the 414, it’s a sub $1000 problem. If a starter-generator goes bad in a Conquest, it’s a $20,000 problem.
S4 Aviator- Yikes!! I'm a big turbine fan but, the reality of it is quite shocking. How is the 414 as a recreational aircraft vs putting it to work part time? Is the 414 a good candidate for single IFR? You guys look like you are pretty busy in the cockpit.
really like your vid ,twin engine airplanes are awesome
Thanks Dennis!
I liked the 421 until I looked up the operating cost compared to the 414.
starts at 13:50
how would you convince a person who dislikes turbochargers to convert and what would be the reasoning?
ken ryan Hey Ken! This sounds like a great topic for a future video! I'd start by dispelling all of the myths about turbochargers in general, like "they're temperamental and maintenance intensive" and then move on to talk about the different turbo configurations you find in aircraft (fixed wastegate, manual wastegate, VAPC, etc) Finally, I'd talk about all of the great benefits to turbocharging and why they provide a tremendous benefit to people who want to operate at higher altitudes
ken ryan - uh, cabin pressurization is nice.
does the 414 mandate two crew up front
Hey Dave! The Cessna 414A is FAA certified as a single pilot airplane by the FAA. I'm not sure about other countries, but as far as I know, it's a single pilot airplane everywhere.
Takeoff briefing..where you going? No dep brief
My father owns an Engineering firm and hopes to buy the Cessna 414 or 421 for regular travel from the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Ever since I got my license we have wanted to purchase an aircraft for personal/business travel.
I was wondering if you could reply in a comment or private message the details of ownership? I hate to ask, but are Annuals, insurance, hangar fee's, landing fee's (If Applicable), and any other associated costs of ownership cost you annually? We're interested in the 421 (A/B/C) series aircraft but unfortunately saw somewhere an annual can cost upwards of $15-$20,000 on a good year. Can you please verify any of that and let me know what Annuals as well as regular maintenance costs on the 414? Thank you very much and great videos! Enjoy watching them.
I'll tell you what. I can either try and break them down on an elemental level here, or I can make a video for you in the next day or so and detail them. Your choice!
If you'd like to do both feel free to. Instead of spoiling it in the comments for those who watch regularly, you may be able to Email, Private Message me, or any other method, contact me with the details you believe to be applicable. Otherwise I can wait for a video. I know there are many others curious about the costs of ownership, but unfortunately there are not any decent reading materials online that give accurate numbers and if so they always make it seem so un-affordable.
Additionally, I know these aircraft can handle 6-8 passengers depending on the configuring. My question is, does this accurately depict a mission with 8 full size adults averaging 150 LBS, or is this a plane for 3/4 adults and children at most?
I'll do a video to break down the operating costs for you. To easily answer your second question, the answer is absolutely not. Neither the 414A, or the 421C can take 8 full sized adults and enough gas to go anywhere meaningful. 8 adults at 150lbs a piece is unrealistically low. A more realistic figure would be 180lbs a piece. Either way, it really isnt doable in either airplane. The 414 and 421 are excellent airplanes for 3-6 people in a very roomy, pressurized, air conditioned cabin with a refreshment center. Thats where the value comes in. Not to mention more room for baggage that you will ever find a need for.
That sounds like a great plan for our mission. Mostly business, but unfortunately we have a 6 person family excluding my girlfriend, and others who may tag along. I will need to get my Instrument (Hopefully soon) and MEL so I can start flying these. Thanks for the help! Looking forward to a video.
Doesn't the 421 have trailing link landing gear whilst the 414 is straight struts?
Depends on the 421. Only the 421C was equipped with trailing link gear, and only after serial number 799. All 421C's 799 and below had the same gear as the 414A, and the 421, 421A, and 421B had the earlier electromechanical gear from the Cessna 310.
Thanks for the clarification. Back in 1988 I was shopping around for a 7 seater twin and compared 402C, 414 and 421. I guess I was reading only Trade A Plane and missed these subtle differences. Based on running cost, maintenance competence in South America and mission profile, I bought the 402C. But my emotional preference was for the 414 Ram.
@@leonardcorsbie3063 If you can live without pressurization, the 402C is a great airplane! Its basically an unpressurized 414A.
Yes. It was the pressurization complexity that guided my decision. It was like choosing a Toyota over Lexus. Same car under the metallic paint
Good points, I do like the 421 for the initial takeoff and lower noise level. If someone ever did a 400hp Jet-A Diesel conversion for the 414 would really be a sweet airplane.
Shemp Howard Hey Shemp. Thanks for reaching out! If the 414 was 50 knots faster, we'd probably never consider replacing it. We do so many trips between NY and south FL, it probably makes more sense for us to be in a Conquest or a jet...which you may end up seeing replace this airplane sometime in the future!
Genda Minoru Hey Genda. We've talked briefly about a Merlin, but it's probably not the right airplane for us. It's certainly plenty fast, but it isnt a great short field airplane (we occasionally use 3,000-3,500 foot runways) it can be tough to find parts for from what owners have told us, and it almost certainly wouldn't fit in our hangar. We're big fans of Garretts, excellent motors that offer great performance with excellent fuel efficiency. If we go with A turboprop, it will either be a Cessna 441 or an MU-2. If we don't go with either one, we'll end up with a jet.
Yeah some great MU-2 deals out there, and you will definitely want the recurrent training religiously. We operated our Merlin out of 5,000 foot field and never flew into tight spaces and it flew like a jet where the MU-2 does also but doesn't really feel like it due to the roll control. merlin = maintenance, MU-2 = training, 441 = $$$$ almost no great deals ever out there on nice 441s Cheers!
Genda Minoru I agree on the no deals for 441's! But it's definitely one of those airplanes where you get what you pay for. You lose some of the Merlin's cabin space, but 2,200 foot runways are no problem for a Conquest.
S4 Aviator Interesting discussion and personally fascinating to me given that I moved into a 441 with (of course) the dash 10 conversion in February of this year. I barely made it through Simcom before they shut down because of the virus! And, as a point of reference, I moved from a Saratoga which I’d owned for 19 years. It was a big step. I had looked a several Cheyenne 400LSs but ultimately was scared off by the low production and worries about parts availability. But MAN, what an airplane!
5:26 A flying shoebox appears
Adam Reznik it sure is a different looking airplane!
Shorts Skyvan
He’s forgetting one thing, the 421 is MUCH quieter and smoother!
Hey John. We talked about the noise difference between the two areas in a different video. I've flown the 421C, and while it is a quieter airplane, it isn't quiet enough in my opinion to justify the significantly higher cost of ownership and operation. Especially when it brings next to no increase in performance.
You are right about cost, when I flew 414A’s they were all 310 HP in the 80’s, and now I have a 421C w 4 blade props which is very quiet and smooth. I’m just spoiled
@@johnsalem7765 Does the 421 fit in a standard hanger and if yes is ti a fairly easy fit ?
gopher1471 , it’s in 2000 Hangar’s at Naples. Tail is 12 feet tall so probably not a standard T hangar, whatever Standard is.
@@johnsalem7765 I got 44' wide ,39' deep and 14 ' high, sorry for not stating that.
Watching this video I couldn't help but notice the setting on your cabin pressure. Looks like you never set it for the Alt you were going to. I would love to see a video explaining the Pressurization system in detail. I got my High Alt endorsement in an C414 RAM Conversion (You know, 6 fuel tanks, 10 fuel pumps). I want to know more about the pressurization system.
I can do that! We typically leave the cabin altitude selector set to 500 feet above the landing elevation. We don't set it to the cruising altitude as most people do. We prefer to have the cabin pressurize earlier, rather than later, and for the trips down low, it keeps the cabin lower and the passengers ears happier. Basically, the cabin reaches max differential at a much lower altitude. Have to wait for another trip that warrants taking the airplane up into the flight levels to really explain it at work. We'll be taking the airplane from NY back down to Naples, FL in the coming weeks, so maybe on the way back. Doesn't make sense to take it up high on the way down with the winds. As soon as I can get a video done on the topic, I will! And ah yes, the good old "Straight 414." I'm all too familiar with that fuel system. Before the 414AW we had a 310R, basically the same system. We didn't have nacelle or locker tanks though. Most operators don't have a need for that kind of range in a piston twin, and I personally wouldnt want to sit in the airplane that long. They've also had issues with moisture becoming trapped under the nacelle tanks, and causing corrosion. Never flown the straight 414, but if it flies anything like the 310, I'm glad we have the 414A :)
Ah yes! I saw that video on Josh's channel. Gave him grief for calling a straight 414 a Chancellor :) It's really stupid simple to operate that pressurization controller. There's two ways you can do it. Either set the knob to the cruising altitude, in which case the cabin will pressurize more slowly, and overall stay higher, or set it to 500 feet above the field elevation and leave it alone, in which case the cabin will pressurize sooner, and the cabin will stay lower. If most of your trips are at 11-13K, I would strongly reccomend you do it the way you saw us doing it in this video. If you set the pressurization controller to 1K feet, and then climb to say 12K feet, you'll be cruising along at 12,000 feet with a cabin altitude of only 1,000 or 1,500 feet. Much more comfortable for the passengers, because they basically notice no change at all. Their ears won't pop, and the cabin altitude is so close to what it is on the ground, that its basically impossible to tell the difference. At 12,000 feet, the cabin will probably be at max differential, but theres nothing wrong with that. If you had set the pressurization controller to 12,000 feet instead, you'd be flying along at 12,000 feet with a cabin thats only partially pressurized, and a cabin altitude of 4-6K feet. Not that theres anything wrong with that either, but everyones ears will pop, and the cabin will be well below max differential. So by flying it our way, the cabin virtually stays at sea level for the lower trips. Why fly around with only a partially pressurized cabin when you can fly at a higher differential and be more comfortable?
This must've been filmed when VP Pence was here at Sanibel.
Hmmm. Don't think so. What makes you say that?
S4 Aviator Atis stated TFR over Sanibel, so if this video was from earlier this year, Pence was at Sanibel briefly visiting with his family.
In the future, when narrating in flight, please cut out the ATC traffic. It’s really hard to hear you, when atc is barking.
Interesting idea. I've never seen anyone do that, and I'd have to figure out how since the audio patch cord that picks up the intercom audio is tied into my headset. I might be able to plug the patch cord into the copilots jack and turn off COM1 on his side. That could work. By the way, are you Ken from KD?
kenneth reese I bet 95% of the viewers would disagree.
Don’t tell us your mission.
What was all that crap that he was rattling off before they took off. Trust me, if you have engine failure on takeoff it is all filled. There are no procedures. If you can't do it by feel you should not be flying.
Clearly you don't have a jet background, or really any professional flying background. Briefing the departure and the contingencies at various stages of the takeoff is a normal practice in high performance and turbine aircraft. It is especially paramount when flying in a crewed environment. If an issue arises at any stage of the takeoff, each crewmember knows exactly what their responsibilities are. I guess everything I learned to get my Phenom 300 and Learjet type ratings just doesn't apply. We should handle every emergency simply by "feel." If you don't want to fly like a professional, that's your prerogative. But its simply not how we do things.
When I was still actively flying as a private pilot I briefed my passengers/crew in a similar manor. There is no substitution for professionalism and proficiency
Bad sound shame
Hey Paul. What is the issue with the sound?