Also crazy that you are celebrating your 200 sub special when you are on the road to 1000. Good for you! The Poe community is craving content while they are getting excited for poe2, perfect timing for growth! 👍
Haha glad you are enjoying. And yep my own hype for poe2 was definitely one of my own motivations since the timing felt good. More to come and glad to have ya along for the ride.
If you have free will that mean if you have 20 bike accident that left you half alive you can decide to continue doing this, if yes you are stupid if no you are wrong
20:58 to be fair, most religions boil down to "don't be an arse and this is why" [1000 pages of how to not be an arse] (and some people will read a passage that has been translated 50 times, interpret it in a way that is convenient and say "this is why I'm justified in being an arse.")
last comment/rambling part 1: on punishment, I think the native American punishment of exile/ostracization is the most interesting, basically you just stop getting any social thing since you can't be social (as in live in a society, joker reference not intended). it's basically cancelling, but once you've served your time (or died, because if you have to get your food and survive winter by yourself for 3 years, that's basically a death sentence in a tribe type scenario.), you are admitted back and absolved of everything and helped back on track. imo the best type of "punishment" is consequences and learning from your mistake/crime, and being helped through with it if help is wanted. for example the norwegian and dutch system treating crime as a thing to be reduced, and thus resorting the loss of freedom as punishment (i.e. prisoners are treated as humans) and having reintegration help, since most people who commit crimes don't do it in a vacuum out of pure evil, that's a very small minority. in the same vein, portugal treating drug use as a medical rather than a legal issue. (though note that due to extra budget cuts the program has issues, because just making it not illegal to own drugs for personal use isn't a great solution.) norway also has an interesting prison sentence system where the maximum possible for an initial sentence is 25 years, which can be increased by 5 years when it ends (multiple time, but after 25 years a review is held every 5 years to decide if they will be better off without freedom or can contribute to society.) another thing that helps is that they can have end of sentence towns where guards and prisoners can interact normally, so the prisoners with long sentences learn how to function in the real world, without being just thrown out and told to get a job (which often causes people to end on harsh times and resort to crime again, thus ending back in prison). that is helped by having islands or places that are so isolated that you're more likely to get mauled by a bear and escape (and after 10-20 years of prison, you don't want to risk getting an extra 10 years to shave off 3 years which are pretty good all things considered.) that's why there's often the joke about the norwegian prisons being better than new york appartements, those are basically meant for reintegration or for non violent crimes (e.g. hackers, the sentence is you don't get anything electronic.) the interesting thing is that the punishment harshness usually doesn't diminish most crimes by a significant amount, it often just makes criminals put more effort into not getting caught. focusing on reducing the reasons/capacity for crime/unwanted behavior (including reducing recidivism) however, helps. part 2: on free will. I personally like the quantum multiverse theory, where everything that happens is part of basically a tree (whether infinite or not depends on if time and space are finite/quantizable, if one of them is infinite or continuous (which is basically equivalent), then that tree is infinite, and thus not really a tree, it's basically a wave function, but that's easier to understand as a tree), from a start, every time something happens, (as in a quantum interaction) the universe can go different ways, as in tree branches (or that dramatic crossroads meme, but with more paths), and you are in whatever branch the insane amount of quantum observations resulted in. where free will comes in is that each observation has a probability, and which universe you end up in is basically where those observations landed. if we take shroedinger's cat experiment and simplify it to the cat being alive or dead because of the radiation of a radioactive material having radiation being detected and killing the cat, we have 2 sets of events/universes, one where a particle was observed and the cat is dead and the other one where he is alive. (note that in a real world scenario there's also a ton of universes where the cat dies of some other reason without a particle detected, or survives du to some reason be it malfunction or the cat surviving by a miracle, and dead is a spectrum.) anyway, those events have a probability, and if free will exists that means you can steer those probabilities (like a cargo boat coming into a harbor at 5mph is my opinion) but if you can steer them however slightly that's where the butterfly effect comes in, a somewhat inconsequential change in the starting conditions (as in "now") can change seemingly unrelated sets down the line. as a bonus, there's a more complex version where basically sub-universes are independent as long as information cannot be transferred between them (i.e. they are farther apart than what the speed of information can reach, which as far as we know is equal to the speed of light in a vacuum), and only when information is transferred do they merge. that means each event is independent at t=0. anyway, that's my interpretation of it, it's probably mostly wrong, but hey, if you claim to know quantum physics, you don't.
Ok heres my last reply/rambling ;P １Punishment: I started a book a few days ago called determined by robert sapolski which i highly recommend you check out since i think you would also really like it a lot. I havent gotten to the point where he discusses his views on punishment but given that it is all a no free will book and ive watched many of his interviews, i think his conclusion which i will adapt is going to be along the lines of exactly what you mentioned here. People are basically all playing out their hand that they got through luck and through no choice of their own, thus we can simply isolate/quarantine the 'bad guys' but dont need to really focus on the hatred and punishment part. just isolate em and move on based on some judgement of overall harm reduction or whatever you wanna choose to keep the wheel in the sky turning. 2 ima tldr my response to this one which is that your view of shifting the probabilities wouldve prolly been what i wouldve said most of my life but nowadays i just dont think the shifting actually exists (at this point i would have to be a single timeline playing out more or less deterministcally and yes i largely gloss over the quantum mechanical phenomena for now but i do need to address it and actually im looking forward to reading robert sapolski's treatment of quantum mechanical phenoma in relation to free will which he does cover in the book im reading now. and of course at end of day i prolly also will never truly understand it anyways so RIP lol). So im a one time line, fully determined when it comes to humans actions, no free will guy still for now. PS: Im 99% sure my next just chatting style vid will be me further elaborating these exact viewpoints so would be happy to have ya as a subscriber if you feel like sticking around for it ;) cheers
Free will doesn't matter. If you don't have free will you can't influence anything anyway, therefore you should assume you have free will. It also doesn't matter for punishing people. People are put into jail to protect the rest of the world from them and to put them on a better path. Whether they had a choice doesn't matter. In general, I consider thinking about what people deserve or are justified in doing harmful. We should strive to do what is best for everyone, even if it is unjustified and vice versa. Also, I'm not sure how you can be convinced that you do not have free will, as that would mean that you only believe so because it is predetermined that you do.
Ya i just finished a book called Determined which i highly recommend if you are interested in these topics which also goes largely into detail on pretty much everything you stated here. And yes i believe so because it is predetermined that i do ;) Happy Thanksgiving hope you have a nice day ;)
and on the point of "abuse" or any parental adoptation your parents' habits. there are kids that adopt them and also there are kids that are completely on the opposite side of the spectrum doing anything but same stuff their parents did, like some sort of protest. if you closely watch people around you, some of them want to copy their parents, some of them not, sometimes it is same parents... why is that?
Ya, its a good question. i also often wonder the same thing. but i think at the end of the day its probably just because its a large number of misc external factors and experiences coupled with things like genetics that each have some portion of the total influence. again things like genetics can have a massive factor, and they also have many other experiences outside of just the parental abuse
14:00 there's the even more wacky idea that nothing is real, hence the "I think therefore I am" which is kinda glossed over by most people, but that's the only certitude in the face of "what is reality?". you could be just living that exact instant with memories being purely cohesive of off randomness at infinity (see infinite monkeys and last thursdayism.) but the only certain thing is that I have a me, aka ego/soul that experiences, so regardless of that this is the thing you can be sure of, because otherwise you couldn't be. (from your point of view at least, rocks don't have their own ego as far as we know, but they still "are", or at least I experience them.) there's a range like "matter isn't real and I'm just a bunch of thing hallucinating thoughts" or "I am the only one with an ego, everybody else is just reacting according to their programming/how I think they would" (basically the concept of npc in newer terms.) those can lead to some pretty bad nihilistic views, as you view yourself as superior without proof, and you end up on the Valladolid debate, if others don't have souls/egos, or nothing matters, there is nothing wrong about harming others. I think pascal's wager is a good answer to what to do in the face of this uncertainty, basically you have little to gain by harming others if things aren't real, compared to what you have to lose if they are. (yeah the initial thing is about god, and the dilemma is about certain finite loss vs uncertain infinite gain, but it's similar enough.) well, Imma end that tangential rambling here, hope someone finds it interesting.
Ill try to look into a couple of the things you mentioned but long story short im an accepter on i think therefore i am, i think things are real, and while i believe everyone is robotically carrying out their predetermined actions, i dont think it makes me above them and im also just one of the robots. And then finally ill prolly still robotically carry out something akin to pascals wager (which i think was kind of one of the main points i was trying to make here actually、Essentially supporting/recommending traditional world religion suggestions on how to live)
the only sad thing ( i mean probably everyone was lieing 50% anyway i couldnt care less about what happened )BUT there is not any 2nd poe channel out there like his is or was , whatever with some information provided which is NOWHERE else to find f.example his tiers/rating list of synth modifiers ... probably i should donwnload all his videos lol
Ya its a shame, i thought his videos seemed interesting too after watching several of them. I have a feeling he will probably end up making videos again TBH but who knows. We'll see.
this idea, that humans are molded like clay, was actually took to the test in sovjet union by taking multiple siblings away from their parents and try to raise them in the same military facility with big batches of kids, and if this idea were correct, they should became similar ethics adults and at least not deviate far from each other, but this did not work, adults became differend frome some point on, even being surrounded with same ideas and stuff, their own way to undestand and apply those ideas to the world differ. On all levels any attemps to recreate similar human beeings failed, regardless what time of "similarity" you take as a floor. There is major differences between all types of siblings (same genetics) but also kids raised in groups like orphans that had same environment and same culutral background, did not develop any reliable behavior anchoring. If anything of your theory were true, some dictators would find a way to mold and create whole generations of people of their liking, but noone still managed to achive that? I think here is evidence given by not having it, the closed the world saw is nord korea, but those people are just silent in fear and we all understand they dont think or behave all the same.
Alright here are a handful of my initial thoughts since anything more than a handful would have me writing this response all day xD. In random order: 1. "Siblings": You said siblings so im assuming brothers and sisters. Unless folks are identical twins, while similar genetically, they will still be far from genetically identical. Also genetic twins have clearly been shown to end up very similar a lot of the time (again its both nature and genetics that mold them). 2. Same environment yields different people: While yes you can stick folks in the same general environment, its probably not possible to perfectly identically raise two individuals. First of all, i think we all do see clearly that for eg average folks raised in the US are generally very different from average folks raised in North Korea, and lots of other countries, because their cultural environment DOES have a massive impact, but of course there will still also always be some amount of individual variation because of all the other variables (genetics, small differences in experience, etc). 3 nearly same environment: along the same lines, i would say even in places like orphages and that experiment, again you just cant create truly identical upbringings. silly example but lets say some kid randomly had a huge birthmark covering half their face from birth or some other birth defect (for example my father had a small facial defect from the way they pulled him out at birth). now maybe all the kids start calling him poop face or stupid face or something. You take groups of kids in almost any setting and prolly some start bullying one and yada yada. it just isnt truly ever the same experience for everyone. 4 finally in the dictator example, i would say a lot of dictators prolly wanna mold folks into some kind of subservient unthinking clone populace, but also we cant simply mold people into whatever we want through enviroment since our human genetics naturally inclines us in certain directions. imagine if the dictator wanted people to lose their natural lusts and appetites. not gonna happen.
@@NoMoreMrNextYear ok ill give you that, that our desires and needs might depend on our upbringin, genetics yata yata yata, but then there is our will that can control if this "idea" will become an action or not. It can be as easy as "i want to eat this, but this is bad for me so i don't" or a far severe thought. Im sure there a millions of people with maniac ideas in them wanting to do horrifying things, but as long as they can press against that wish and dont end up doing any action, we all consider them sane, because nobody knows what is in other human head. and those who lost control we call mentally ill - insane. What is giving me the possibility to fight against my wishes and desires? Sure i might take some losses now and then, but as long as i can get on top and regain control, im sane. So are you still sane exile?)
Haha. Clearly, this exile is not still sane (referring to myself of course). But anywho ya i would just say the same thing robert sapolsky always says and that im always arguing with my close friends with which is that that process of idea->do i 'choose' to act on the idea or not, the so called choice/free will etc, is the result of a mental state that was the result of a long series of external forces as well as things like genetic, all of which the person never had any control over. then they end up in the position of supposed control, but that mental state now in control was crafted by just a huge number of no control influencers like genetics and environment etc etc. Anyways agree to disagree and im sure it wont be the last time this comes up xD Thanks for good discussion. Cheers. And i read your other comment about the legal system thing and ya ill think more on that. Maybe 'intention' is seperate from 'will'/'free will' etc but to me i feel like its similar because its basically like everyone accepts this idea of children as still being sort of in the 'ball of clay' phase of life where all their actions are simply a result of external stimulus thus no ethical responsibility (with exceptions of course) vs adults suddenly have their decisions spontaneously combust of their own 'free will' (which again, its true the legal system is constantly making exceptions there too, which to me is further admission that at the end of the day everyones actions are just resulting from various circumstances and folks different lots in life)...Ill end there for now xD Cheers
you are ignoring the fact that genetically everyone is different, event identical twins. Even something as small as a slight difference in sensibility to some hormones like Adrenaline or Dopamine can make 2 similar pearsons react differently given the same situation, but that is not free will, just a genetical dice throw. That experiment only proves that nurture is not the only factor in development, doesn't prove free will. The idea that humans are molded like clay is actually very accurate, if you take into account that not all clay balls are the same.
on the differences in the law, this is actually false, because this exemption you mention that applies to children might also apply to adults and it is based on knowledge and understanding of basic concepts, like if a kid does not understand what is death, or what is gravity, how can you punish him for pushing other kid to fall? Legal system just assumes that you must know and understand certain concepts by certain age, but even then, if you as adult just cut a rope without knowing that this rope holds an elevator, you will be judged far less harder, because of you simply beeing stupid, so it will be an acident and not a murder. But if a judge has some reason to belive you undestand what this rope is attached to, you will be judged on murder. There where cases that teens got much higher sentances because they fully understood what they where doing, so it is not about will, its about understanding of the world and results of your own actions.
Also crazy that you are celebrating your 200 sub special when you are on the road to 1000. Good for you! The Poe community is craving content while they are getting excited for poe2, perfect timing for growth! 👍
Haha glad you are enjoying. And yep my own hype for poe2 was definitely one of my own motivations since the timing felt good. More to come and glad to have ya along for the ride.
You do have free choice. Even philosophers get lost in their own nonsense. Most people just like to find ways to absolve themselves of responsibility.
Nuh huh
Great argument btw thats some profound shit
If you have free will that mean if you have 20 bike accident that left you half alive you can decide to continue doing this, if yes you are stupid if no you are wrong
20:58 to be fair, most religions boil down to "don't be an arse and this is why" [1000 pages of how to not be an arse]
(and some people will read a passage that has been translated 50 times, interpret it in a way that is convenient and say "this is why I'm justified in being an arse.")
I found myself doing something like this once and that's when I realized the add meds were messing up my life.
"I before e, except after c" - John Buddha.
Babe, wake up! New Nex video just dropped!
last comment/rambling
part 1: on punishment, I think the native American punishment of exile/ostracization is the most interesting, basically you just stop getting any social thing since you can't be social (as in live in a society, joker reference not intended).
it's basically cancelling, but once you've served your time (or died, because if you have to get your food and survive winter by yourself for 3 years, that's basically a death sentence in a tribe type scenario.), you are admitted back and absolved of everything and helped back on track.
imo the best type of "punishment" is consequences and learning from your mistake/crime, and being helped through with it if help is wanted. for example the norwegian and dutch system treating crime as a thing to be reduced, and thus resorting the loss of freedom as punishment (i.e. prisoners are treated as humans) and having reintegration help, since most people who commit crimes don't do it in a vacuum out of pure evil, that's a very small minority. in the same vein, portugal treating drug use as a medical rather than a legal issue. (though note that due to extra budget cuts the program has issues, because just making it not illegal to own drugs for personal use isn't a great solution.)
norway also has an interesting prison sentence system where the maximum possible for an initial sentence is 25 years, which can be increased by 5 years when it ends (multiple time, but after 25 years a review is held every 5 years to decide if they will be better off without freedom or can contribute to society.) another thing that helps is that they can have end of sentence towns where guards and prisoners can interact normally, so the prisoners with long sentences learn how to function in the real world, without being just thrown out and told to get a job (which often causes people to end on harsh times and resort to crime again, thus ending back in prison). that is helped by having islands or places that are so isolated that you're more likely to get mauled by a bear and escape (and after 10-20 years of prison, you don't want to risk getting an extra 10 years to shave off 3 years which are pretty good all things considered.)
that's why there's often the joke about the norwegian prisons being better than new york appartements, those are basically meant for reintegration or for non violent crimes (e.g. hackers, the sentence is you don't get anything electronic.)
the interesting thing is that the punishment harshness usually doesn't diminish most crimes by a significant amount, it often just makes criminals put more effort into not getting caught.
focusing on reducing the reasons/capacity for crime/unwanted behavior (including reducing recidivism) however, helps.
part 2: on free will.
I personally like the quantum multiverse theory, where everything that happens is part of basically a tree (whether infinite or not depends on if time and space are finite/quantizable, if one of them is infinite or continuous (which is basically equivalent), then that tree is infinite, and thus not really a tree, it's basically a wave function, but that's easier to understand as a tree), from a start, every time something happens, (as in a quantum interaction) the universe can go different ways, as in tree branches (or that dramatic crossroads meme, but with more paths), and you are in whatever branch the insane amount of quantum observations resulted in.
where free will comes in is that each observation has a probability, and which universe you end up in is basically where those observations landed.
if we take shroedinger's cat experiment and simplify it to the cat being alive or dead because of the radiation of a radioactive material having radiation being detected and killing the cat, we have 2 sets of events/universes, one where a particle was observed and the cat is dead and the other one where he is alive. (note that in a real world scenario there's also a ton of universes where the cat dies of some other reason without a particle detected, or survives du to some reason be it malfunction or the cat surviving by a miracle, and dead is a spectrum.)
anyway, those events have a probability, and if free will exists that means you can steer those probabilities (like a cargo boat coming into a harbor at 5mph is my opinion) but if you can steer them however slightly that's where the butterfly effect comes in, a somewhat inconsequential change in the starting conditions (as in "now") can change seemingly unrelated sets down the line.
as a bonus, there's a more complex version where basically sub-universes are independent as long as information cannot be transferred between them (i.e. they are farther apart than what the speed of information can reach, which as far as we know is equal to the speed of light in a vacuum), and only when information is transferred do they merge. that means each event is independent at t=0.
anyway, that's my interpretation of it, it's probably mostly wrong, but hey, if you claim to know quantum physics, you don't.
Ok heres my last reply/rambling ;P
１Punishment: I started a book a few days ago called determined by robert sapolski which i highly recommend you check out since i think you would also really like it a lot. I havent gotten to the point where he discusses his views on punishment but given that it is all a no free will book and ive watched many of his interviews, i think his conclusion which i will adapt is going to be along the lines of exactly what you mentioned here. People are basically all playing out their hand that they got through luck and through no choice of their own, thus we can simply isolate/quarantine the 'bad guys' but dont need to really focus on the hatred and punishment part. just isolate em and move on based on some judgement of overall harm reduction or whatever you wanna choose to keep the wheel in the sky turning.
2 ima tldr my response to this one which is that your view of shifting the probabilities wouldve prolly been what i wouldve said most of my life but nowadays i just dont think the shifting actually exists (at this point i would have to be a single timeline playing out more or less deterministcally and yes i largely gloss over the quantum mechanical phenomena for now but i do need to address it and actually im looking forward to reading robert sapolski's treatment of quantum mechanical phenoma in relation to free will which he does cover in the book im reading now. and of course at end of day i prolly also will never truly understand it anyways so RIP lol). So im a one time line, fully determined when it comes to humans actions, no free will guy still for now.
PS: Im 99% sure my next just chatting style vid will be me further elaborating these exact viewpoints so would be happy to have ya as a subscriber if you feel like sticking around for it ;) cheers
Free will doesn't matter. If you don't have free will you can't influence anything anyway, therefore you should assume you have free will.
It also doesn't matter for punishing people. People are put into jail to protect the rest of the world from them and to put them on a better path. Whether they had a choice doesn't matter. In general, I consider thinking about what people deserve or are justified in doing harmful. We should strive to do what is best for everyone, even if it is unjustified and vice versa.
Also, I'm not sure how you can be convinced that you do not have free will, as that would mean that you only believe so because it is predetermined that you do.
Ya i just finished a book called Determined which i highly recommend if you are interested in these topics which also goes largely into detail on pretty much everything you stated here. And yes i believe so because it is predetermined that i do ;) Happy Thanksgiving hope you have a nice day ;)
Crazy algorithm pull
and on the point of "abuse" or any parental adoptation your parents' habits. there are kids that adopt them and also there are kids that are completely on the opposite side of the spectrum doing anything but same stuff their parents did, like some sort of protest. if you closely watch people around you, some of them want to copy their parents, some of them not, sometimes it is same parents... why is that?
Ya, its a good question. i also often wonder the same thing. but i think at the end of the day its probably just because its a large number of misc external factors and experiences coupled with things like genetics that each have some portion of the total influence. again things like genetics can have a massive factor, and they also have many other experiences outside of just the parental abuse
14:00 there's the even more wacky idea that nothing is real, hence the "I think therefore I am" which is kinda glossed over by most people, but that's the only certitude in the face of "what is reality?".
you could be just living that exact instant with memories being purely cohesive of off randomness at infinity (see infinite monkeys and last thursdayism.)
but the only certain thing is that I have a me, aka ego/soul that experiences, so regardless of that this is the thing you can be sure of, because otherwise you couldn't be. (from your point of view at least, rocks don't have their own ego as far as we know, but they still "are", or at least I experience them.)
there's a range like "matter isn't real and I'm just a bunch of thing hallucinating thoughts" or "I am the only one with an ego, everybody else is just reacting according to their programming/how I think they would" (basically the concept of npc in newer terms.) those can lead to some pretty bad nihilistic views, as you view yourself as superior without proof, and you end up on the Valladolid debate, if others don't have souls/egos, or nothing matters, there is nothing wrong about harming others.
I think pascal's wager is a good answer to what to do in the face of this uncertainty, basically you have little to gain by harming others if things aren't real, compared to what you have to lose if they are. (yeah the initial thing is about god, and the dilemma is about certain finite loss vs uncertain infinite gain, but it's similar enough.)
well, Imma end that tangential rambling here, hope someone finds it interesting.
Ill try to look into a couple of the things you mentioned but long story short im an accepter on i think therefore i am, i think things are real, and while i believe everyone is robotically carrying out their predetermined actions, i dont think it makes me above them and im also just one of the robots. And then finally ill prolly still robotically carry out something akin to pascals wager (which i think was kind of one of the main points i was trying to make here actually、Essentially supporting/recommending traditional world religion suggestions on how to live)
the only sad thing ( i mean probably everyone was lieing 50% anyway i couldnt care less about what happened )BUT there is not any 2nd poe channel out there like his is or was , whatever with some information provided which is NOWHERE else to find f.example his tiers/rating list of synth modifiers ... probably i should donwnload all his videos lol
Ya its a shame, i thought his videos seemed interesting too after watching several of them. I have a feeling he will probably end up making videos again TBH but who knows. We'll see.
this idea, that humans are molded like clay, was actually took to the test in sovjet union by taking multiple siblings away from their parents and try to raise them in the same military facility with big batches of kids, and if this idea were correct, they should became similar ethics adults and at least not deviate far from each other, but this did not work, adults became differend frome some point on, even being surrounded with same ideas and stuff, their own way to undestand and apply those ideas to the world differ. On all levels any attemps to recreate similar human beeings failed, regardless what time of "similarity" you take as a floor. There is major differences between all types of siblings (same genetics) but also kids raised in groups like orphans that had same environment and same culutral background, did not develop any reliable behavior anchoring. If anything of your theory were true, some dictators would find a way to mold and create whole generations of people of their liking, but noone still managed to achive that? I think here is evidence given by not having it, the closed the world saw is nord korea, but those people are just silent in fear and we all understand they dont think or behave all the same.
Alright here are a handful of my initial thoughts since anything more than a handful would have me writing this response all day xD. In random order: 1. "Siblings": You said siblings so im assuming brothers and sisters. Unless folks are identical twins, while similar genetically, they will still be far from genetically identical. Also genetic twins have clearly been shown to end up very similar a lot of the time (again its both nature and genetics that mold them). 2. Same environment yields different people: While yes you can stick folks in the same general environment, its probably not possible to perfectly identically raise two individuals. First of all, i think we all do see clearly that for eg average folks raised in the US are generally very different from average folks raised in North Korea, and lots of other countries, because their cultural environment DOES have a massive impact, but of course there will still also always be some amount of individual variation because of all the other variables (genetics, small differences in experience, etc). 3 nearly same environment: along the same lines, i would say even in places like orphages and that experiment, again you just cant create truly identical upbringings. silly example but lets say some kid randomly had a huge birthmark covering half their face from birth or some other birth defect (for example my father had a small facial defect from the way they pulled him out at birth). now maybe all the kids start calling him poop face or stupid face or something. You take groups of kids in almost any setting and prolly some start bullying one and yada yada. it just isnt truly ever the same experience for everyone. 4 finally in the dictator example, i would say a lot of dictators prolly wanna mold folks into some kind of subservient unthinking clone populace, but also we cant simply mold people into whatever we want through enviroment since our human genetics naturally inclines us in certain directions. imagine if the dictator wanted people to lose their natural lusts and appetites. not gonna happen.
@@NoMoreMrNextYear ok ill give you that, that our desires and needs might depend on our upbringin, genetics yata yata yata, but then there is our will that can control if this "idea" will become an action or not. It can be as easy as "i want to eat this, but this is bad for me so i don't" or a far severe thought. Im sure there a millions of people with maniac ideas in them wanting to do horrifying things, but as long as they can press against that wish and dont end up doing any action, we all consider them sane, because nobody knows what is in other human head. and those who lost control we call mentally ill - insane. What is giving me the possibility to fight against my wishes and desires? Sure i might take some losses now and then, but as long as i can get on top and regain control, im sane. So are you still sane exile?)
Haha. Clearly, this exile is not still sane (referring to myself of course). But anywho ya i would just say the same thing robert sapolsky always says and that im always arguing with my close friends with which is that that process of idea->do i 'choose' to act on the idea or not, the so called choice/free will etc, is the result of a mental state that was the result of a long series of external forces as well as things like genetic, all of which the person never had any control over. then they end up in the position of supposed control, but that mental state now in control was crafted by just a huge number of no control influencers like genetics and environment etc etc. Anyways agree to disagree and im sure it wont be the last time this comes up xD Thanks for good discussion. Cheers. And i read your other comment about the legal system thing and ya ill think more on that. Maybe 'intention' is seperate from 'will'/'free will' etc but to me i feel like its similar because its basically like everyone accepts this idea of children as still being sort of in the 'ball of clay' phase of life where all their actions are simply a result of external stimulus thus no ethical responsibility (with exceptions of course) vs adults suddenly have their decisions spontaneously combust of their own 'free will' (which again, its true the legal system is constantly making exceptions there too, which to me is further admission that at the end of the day everyones actions are just resulting from various circumstances and folks different lots in life)...Ill end there for now xD Cheers
you are ignoring the fact that genetically everyone is different, event identical twins. Even something as small as a slight difference in sensibility to some hormones like Adrenaline or Dopamine can make 2 similar pearsons react differently given the same situation, but that is not free will, just a genetical dice throw. That experiment only proves that nurture is not the only factor in development, doesn't prove free will. The idea that humans are molded like clay is actually very accurate, if you take into account that not all clay balls are the same.
How can choose to be a piece of grass if I've already been choosing to not be a piece of grass? Check and mate.
on the differences in the law, this is actually false, because this exemption you mention that applies to children might also apply to adults and it is based on knowledge and understanding of basic concepts, like if a kid does not understand what is death, or what is gravity, how can you punish him for pushing other kid to fall? Legal system just assumes that you must know and understand certain concepts by certain age, but even then, if you as adult just cut a rope without knowing that this rope holds an elevator, you will be judged far less harder, because of you simply beeing stupid, so it will be an acident and not a murder. But if a judge has some reason to belive you undestand what this rope is attached to, you will be judged on murder. There where cases that teens got much higher sentances because they fully understood what they where doing, so it is not about will, its about understanding of the world and results of your own actions.