Excellent video. I'm glad you've decided to drop some little things to get us through till the next stone kings vid. Honestly can not get enough so thank you!
Stuff like this makes me think a GoT prequel similar to Bloodmoon (with a new script) would be really cool. A character like Brandon the Builder has so many lore connections. Would be the Stark HotD
Heres an idea about how to connect ancient Weirwood worship with stone people. Maybe, the ancient human druids - the weirwood worshippers- who merge with the tree, used to be able to undergo a conversion. Rather than merely being run through with roots, maybe they became so saturated with Weirsap that their bodies turned woody. Literally merging and becoming a tree-person. Then, the weirwood turns to stone, meaning the men turn to stone too. Weirwoods becoming petrified into stone is a form of plant dormacy. As the telepathy pervading weirwoods can be used to 'turn trees to warriors', the sap-saturated wood-to-stone men could also be pervaded with telepathy. I think this is a streamlined way of integrating these ideas, as it doesn't involve the Grey-scale disease, which I find hard to imagine how its related. Nor does it require directly killing someone and resurecting them. Yet, human sacrifice and resurection do seem to be involved in some way, so here's how it might be. The true stone-men are the ones who have undergone a long sap-trasformation to become wood, and then become stone. They are the Commanders of the hive. During the Long Night, humans realised they needed more of these stonemen fast, and they needed to be more mobile and young. So, they resorted to a quick version of this process, which involves killing someone, perhaps repaling their blood with sap, and then an immediate resurection, which mimmicks the stone-man form. These would be the footsoliders, and may more-or-less lose their own mind, to become a blank slate for the hive-mind. My remaining question is: is this restriction process one of ice, fire, or tree? Could be any or all. Maybe it'll use sword-forging symbolism; a sword must first be fired, then dunked into water to harden it. Taking humans and putting then through a forge of fire and ice to make them into steel-men, sword-men, hard mineral men, seems very Martin.
Yeah I’ve had a similar thought around this as well, as maybe the greyscale is symbolic for the idea of green men (tree people) turning to stone so they never die just like the Weirwoods (people trees), we hear of the green men possibly having branches on their head which makes them a tree so maybe they just undergo a natural stone transformation? But the thing that suggests to me it’s greyscale is the idea of the ironborn ressurection ritual containing a line of being “blessed with stone” which suggests the ability of being turned to stone as given to them, just like we hear the shrouded lord, who had greyscale, “bestows his grey kiss to people” so they can ornament his stoney court, with both suggesting this grey/stone transformation as a gift or a blessing in a ritual We also have several references to a stark having greyscale through Sansa when she says people avoided her like the grey plague. Maybe greyscale itself is a tree based disease as your suggesting?
@@eldric.stoneskin Yes, I agree that the final puzzle piece would be making greyscale a property of Weirmagic, that was intentionally used in this transformation. The thing that doesn't scan there though, is you'd think that greyscale would be found like anywhere in westeros especially the North. But it doesn't seem to be there. Its found on Essos, I believe there was some on Dragonstone with some targaryen ancestors (and shireen), and one of the Greyjoy brothers (who could've contracted it due to contact with eastern travelers).
Where has this channel been hiding!? Finally someone goes ball deep on asoiaf. I'm tired of seeing channels talking about conspiracies that don't even skim the surface.
Adding to this, I believe the sigil of house Umber is a giant attempting to break its handcuffs. Showing that they do, indeed lose their freedom in someway.
Ah the measters: the first men couldn't build round towers but they could build circular Hill fortresses like the Fist of the first men. Also the measters: there is no magic in the world except for glass candles and all the other magical items they're hiding in the Citadel
Yeah this is mentioned by the Maesters, but I think this is just the Maesters trying to explain away how the "first" keep is round, most people believe it to have been built by the first men and if this keep was the First structure as implied by the name it would have to have been built by Bran the Builder
@@eldric.stoneskin I think the maesters bits in the WOIAF book are meant to confuse anything having to do with the history of the first men cuz the maesters/andals are crooked af and trying to erase all traces of ancient westeros.
Great video I've always thought that the others had to have something to do with building the wall and maybe bran and the COTF kinda sneak the magic in that means they can't pass
Thanks! My thoughts are that Bran the builders mother might have been an Other, the nights queen, and that perhaps Bran the builder was using ice magic in the process as well, maybe fusing the blocks of ice together or something? Meaning that a “good” other built the wall or something like that?
I'd be surprised if he wasn't a skin changer. I can't remember if what I'm remembering is correct, but I think GRRM once said it was more common for born Starks to be skin changers when the direwolves were alive south of the Wall, before they were hunted to extinction. I think the current Stark children are the first skin changers in about 3-400 years, because of the direwolf coming south of the Wall.
There was a theory video i saw several months ago that postulated that Bran the Builder was the son of two of the famous children of Garth Greenhand. So a grandchild of Garth using magic, skin changing, and such would make sense to me. The father being Brandon of the Bloody Blade while the mother was the one of the Red Lake (formerly Blue Lake, sorry for my memory blank here). Edit: So yeah, this all seems to add up to me. So yeah, I can see this being (hopefully) eventually proven true
Yeah that’s what I think as well, her name was Rose of Red Lake and we hear the lake used to be named Blue lake as you’ve said giving her blue rose symbolism, a nice suggestion that this might be the female stark progenitor
@@eldric.stoneskin I'm happy to hear we are thinking along the same lines. Thank you I couldn't remember Rose. I hate when I go blank like that. And it is interesting to consider that Brandon of the Bloody Blades may be why the Blue Lake became Red.
It seems like the daughters of garth are the ones with the warging powers. Urrigon of the Hightower (who is not mentioned with any kind of magical powers) and Maris the Maid (who reminds me of Mallora the Mad Maid so she was probably a warg or witch of some sort) had Peremore The Twisted and he was obsessed with knowledge (said to have created the Citadel) and was probably even a greenseer himself. Reminds me of Bran, a broken and twisted boy with godlike mental abilities. And as you mentioned, Brandon of the Bloody Blade (whos claim to fame was as a brutal warrior, not magic) and Rose of Red Lake (whos said to turn into a crane at will, i.e. warging) likely had Brandon the Builder.
A question that has occurred to me while watching through your videos is: if the first men were larger, let's say 'giant', what was the difference between them and the giants who found themselves on the wrong side of the wall and, perhaps according to your theory, skinchanged by Bran the Builder? I find the theory compelling but this one question keeps niggling in my brain. 🤔
I think the giants we find in the current story line who eat vegetables are the proper full size giants, and anytime we hear stories of giants who eat the flesh of men, these were likely just very tall first men partaking in cannibalism perhaps because they were Greenseers
Interesting that the giants were said to be larger than they are now. Like how the Starks/ humans were once larger. Makes me think that all things used to be larger, and they all shrunk for some reason. Maybe George is referencing how in the era of dinosaurs, animals and trees were much larger due to atmospheric conditions. So, giants used to be super-giants, humans used to be giant, and Children ... I don't know?
The premise of Brandon controlling giants, totally agree. The nature of Brandon, I'm still on the fence. For that matter, I'm not entirely convinced we understand the exactly what giant means. Giant strikes me as a relative term, and I still think it's weird that giants speak the language of the FM rather than one of their own. Taking into account the dismay when Jon didn't understand why they'd have a song about the last of the giants in his current company, I don't entirely believe what they call giants are in fact giants. Another thing that sticks out to me is the complete lack of CotF history. There's no tale we can readily identify as a CotF clan hero/leader fighting against the FM. The key issue here is the Andals were the ones recording it. They'd have classified the story based on the context of the teller. I think it's worth considering that Brandon was in fact a CotF. Not close to, but entirely. With FM having babies with CotF and CotF perhaps doing the same, I think these mixed babies over time led to both sides evolving to be indistinguishable. And why skinchanging shows up jn FM. I think that's why the Starks may be special. They were originally a clan of CotF rather than FM. Similarly the Wildlings are perhaps the descendants of CotF hybrids. That's why there's no CotF history, when the Andals wrote it down the groups were similar enough they called them all FM.
Yeah I think your right, the giants of the ancient past are confusing, it seems as though the first men were Giant in size and that giants in the past may have been even bigger again It’s also interesting that the title of the song is “the last of the giants” even though there’s still giants beyond the wall? Perhaps this is referring to a race of even bigger giants that was wiped out? We do hear that the giants Bran the Builder used to raise the wall were “made out to be far larger than they truly were” And I agree that Bran the Builder may have had CotF blood in him as we hear his father Brandon of the Bloody blade possibly being associated with a Rose of Red Lake, who is a skinchanger and with a natured based name like Rose, could suggest her as a CotF?
@eldric.stoneskin a real world parallel is the use of the word giant when translating the Norse Sagas for the Norse word "jotun". The word giant in modern English means a really big human but that is not what jotun means so it really skews the perception of the audience reading sagas to mistakenly over lay the modern meaning. The true translation of jotun is not a settled argument. Jackson Crawford argues the most analogous word would be consumer, in a sense of gluttony or destruction.
I guess it’s too obvious… all these brans are the same bran, it’s the bran from our story. He can basically time travel, he had to learn the language of the children. He is the builder and the burner and the broker…
I certainly could be wrong about it, I’ve heard a lot of theories but ignored many too… I guess I ignored that one cuz I’ve never heard anyone talk about it… I’m not the best at gleaning the pertinent information to help prove of disprove these theories that aren’t obvious and left intentionally vague
Does a greenseer skinchange ONE body at a time, or multiple? One giant can't build The Wall - he'd need to control an army of them. Is there any textual precedent for that?
I believe the only hint of control of multiple bodies is vaguely Varamyr, who seems to have influence on all his animals, while only directly controlling one. More speculatively, the Others lead armies of wights, and resurected animals - so presumably that's telepathic control of multiple bodies.
We also hear that the CotF would send armies of different animals against the first men to fight on their behalf, which possibly suggests they were skin changing or directly influencing multiple bodies as well, it’s speculative but suggested I think
I posted in hate, a moment before Varamyr was brought up. Whether The Others controlling undead wights comes within the same ambit is a separate area for discussion! @@umwha
Not sure if he’s just implying that straight walls are a more crude and simpler design, so would therefore have come earlier in the technological tree and using that to throw the suspected timeline into question for his world building
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“What the king dreams, the hand builds” that’s so good bro, nailed it
Cheers 🍻
Excellent video. I'm glad you've decided to drop some little things to get us through till the next stone kings vid. Honestly can not get enough so thank you!
Your welcome!
Stuff like this makes me think a GoT prequel similar to Bloodmoon (with a new script) would be really cool. A character like Brandon the Builder has so many lore connections. Would be the Stark HotD
I would love that! Any thing Starkcentric would be amazing
nice video dude!
Cheers 🍻
Amazing video! I'm so glad i found this channel!
Another Eldric Stoneskin banger
Thanks mate 🍻
Heres an idea about how to connect ancient Weirwood worship with stone people. Maybe, the ancient human druids - the weirwood worshippers- who merge with the tree, used to be able to undergo a conversion. Rather than merely being run through with roots, maybe they became so saturated with Weirsap that their bodies turned woody. Literally merging and becoming a tree-person. Then, the weirwood turns to stone, meaning the men turn to stone too. Weirwoods becoming petrified into stone is a form of plant dormacy. As the telepathy pervading weirwoods can be used to 'turn trees to warriors', the sap-saturated wood-to-stone men could also be pervaded with telepathy. I think this is a streamlined way of integrating these ideas, as it doesn't involve the Grey-scale disease, which I find hard to imagine how its related. Nor does it require directly killing someone and resurecting them. Yet, human sacrifice and resurection do seem to be involved in some way, so here's how it might be. The true stone-men are the ones who have undergone a long sap-trasformation to become wood, and then become stone. They are the Commanders of the hive. During the Long Night, humans realised they needed more of these stonemen fast, and they needed to be more mobile and young. So, they resorted to a quick version of this process, which involves killing someone, perhaps repaling their blood with sap, and then an immediate resurection, which mimmicks the stone-man form. These would be the footsoliders, and may more-or-less lose their own mind, to become a blank slate for the hive-mind. My remaining question is: is this restriction process one of ice, fire, or tree? Could be any or all. Maybe it'll use sword-forging symbolism; a sword must first be fired, then dunked into water to harden it. Taking humans and putting then through a forge of fire and ice to make them into steel-men, sword-men, hard mineral men, seems very Martin.
Yeah I’ve had a similar thought around this as well, as maybe the greyscale is symbolic for the idea of green men (tree people) turning to stone so they never die just like the Weirwoods (people trees), we hear of the green men possibly having branches on their head which makes them a tree so maybe they just undergo a natural stone transformation?
But the thing that suggests to me it’s greyscale is the idea of the ironborn ressurection ritual containing a line of being “blessed with stone” which suggests the ability of being turned to stone as given to them, just like we hear the shrouded lord, who had greyscale, “bestows his grey kiss to people” so they can ornament his stoney court, with both suggesting this grey/stone transformation as a gift or a blessing in a ritual
We also have several references to a stark having greyscale through Sansa when she says people avoided her like the grey plague.
Maybe greyscale itself is a tree based disease as your suggesting?
@@eldric.stoneskin Yes, I agree that the final puzzle piece would be making greyscale a property of Weirmagic, that was intentionally used in this transformation. The thing that doesn't scan there though, is you'd think that greyscale would be found like anywhere in westeros especially the North. But it doesn't seem to be there. Its found on Essos, I believe there was some on Dragonstone with some targaryen ancestors (and shireen), and one of the Greyjoy brothers (who could've contracted it due to contact with eastern travelers).
First time I’ve stopped by your channel I’ve already sub and listened to your videos for like an hour. Thanks 🙏🏽
Thanks for subbing!
Where has this channel been hiding!? Finally someone goes ball deep on asoiaf. I'm tired of seeing channels talking about conspiracies that don't even skim the surface.
Glad you you found us!💀🍻
Adding to this, I believe the sigil of house Umber is a giant attempting to break its handcuffs. Showing that they do, indeed lose their freedom in someway.
Great point!
Wonderful job!Great video!Always happy to see them😊
Thank you very much!
Ah the measters: the first men couldn't build round towers but they could build circular Hill fortresses like the Fist of the first men. Also the measters: there is no magic in the world except for glass candles and all the other magical items they're hiding in the Citadel
Yeah they’re quite bad at lying 😂
1:08 I think the wiki said the first keep was rebuilt multiple times, so the current First keep isn't the original built by brandon himself
Yeah this is mentioned by the Maesters, but I think this is just the Maesters trying to explain away how the "first" keep is round, most people believe it to have been built by the first men and if this keep was the First structure as implied by the name it would have to have been built by Bran the Builder
@@eldric.stoneskin I think the maesters bits in the WOIAF book are meant to confuse anything having to do with the history of the first men cuz the maesters/andals are crooked af and trying to erase all traces of ancient westeros.
Great video I've always thought that the others had to have something to do with building the wall and maybe bran and the COTF kinda sneak the magic in that means they can't pass
Thanks! My thoughts are that Bran the builders mother might have been an Other, the nights queen, and that perhaps Bran the builder was using ice magic in the process as well, maybe fusing the blocks of ice together or something? Meaning that a “good” other built the wall or something like that?
I don't love Storm's End in HotD, it doesn't have that 80' thick curtain wall facing the sea.
Brilliant, congrats!
The controversy was obvious but not enough. Nice job.
Thanks
I'd be surprised if he wasn't a skin changer. I can't remember if what I'm remembering is correct, but I think GRRM once said it was more common for born Starks to be skin changers when the direwolves were alive south of the Wall, before they were hunted to extinction. I think the current Stark children are the first skin changers in about 3-400 years, because of the direwolf coming south of the Wall.
There was a theory video i saw several months ago that postulated that Bran the Builder was the son of two of the famous children of Garth Greenhand. So a grandchild of Garth using magic, skin changing, and such would make sense to me. The father being Brandon of the Bloody Blade while the mother was the one of the Red Lake (formerly Blue Lake, sorry for my memory blank here).
Edit: So yeah, this all seems to add up to me. So yeah, I can see this being (hopefully) eventually proven true
Yeah that’s what I think as well, her name was Rose of Red Lake and we hear the lake used to be named Blue lake as you’ve said giving her blue rose symbolism, a nice suggestion that this might be the female stark progenitor
@@eldric.stoneskin I'm happy to hear we are thinking along the same lines. Thank you I couldn't remember Rose. I hate when I go blank like that.
And it is interesting to consider that Brandon of the Bloody Blades may be why the Blue Lake became Red.
It seems like the daughters of garth are the ones with the warging powers. Urrigon of the Hightower (who is not mentioned with any kind of magical powers) and Maris the Maid (who reminds me of Mallora the Mad Maid so she was probably a warg or witch of some sort) had Peremore The Twisted and he was obsessed with knowledge (said to have created the Citadel) and was probably even a greenseer himself. Reminds me of Bran, a broken and twisted boy with godlike mental abilities. And as you mentioned, Brandon of the Bloody Blade (whos claim to fame was as a brutal warrior, not magic) and Rose of Red Lake (whos said to turn into a crane at will, i.e. warging) likely had Brandon the Builder.
You know this all sound like a conspiracy theory like "did aliens build the pyramide"
That’s what I was going for haha
A question that has occurred to me while watching through your videos is: if the first men were larger, let's say 'giant', what was the difference between them and the giants who found themselves on the wrong side of the wall and, perhaps according to your theory, skinchanged by Bran the Builder? I find the theory compelling but this one question keeps niggling in my brain. 🤔
I think the giants we find in the current story line who eat vegetables are the proper full size giants, and anytime we hear stories of giants who eat the flesh of men, these were likely just very tall first men partaking in cannibalism perhaps because they were Greenseers
Or Brandon the Builder was himself a child of the forest ;)
Interesting that the giants were said to be larger than they are now. Like how the Starks/ humans were once larger. Makes me think that all things used to be larger, and they all shrunk for some reason. Maybe George is referencing how in the era of dinosaurs, animals and trees were much larger due to atmospheric conditions. So, giants used to be super-giants, humans used to be giant, and Children ... I don't know?
Yeah its an interesting line and I haven’t been too sure what to make of it but the idea you’re suggesting makes a lot of sense to me
What do you use to edit? I love the ink drop transition
Filmora, yeah I quite like it as well
@@eldric.stoneskin thank you!
The premise of Brandon controlling giants, totally agree. The nature of Brandon, I'm still on the fence. For that matter, I'm not entirely convinced we understand the exactly what giant means.
Giant strikes me as a relative term, and I still think it's weird that giants speak the language of the FM rather than one of their own. Taking into account the dismay when Jon didn't understand why they'd have a song about the last of the giants in his current company, I don't entirely believe what they call giants are in fact giants.
Another thing that sticks out to me is the complete lack of CotF history. There's no tale we can readily identify as a CotF clan hero/leader fighting against the FM. The key issue here is the Andals were the ones recording it. They'd have classified the story based on the context of the teller. I think it's worth considering that Brandon was in fact a CotF. Not close to, but entirely. With FM having babies with CotF and CotF perhaps doing the same, I think these mixed babies over time led to both sides evolving to be indistinguishable. And why skinchanging shows up jn FM. I think that's why the Starks may be special. They were originally a clan of CotF rather than FM. Similarly the Wildlings are perhaps the descendants of CotF hybrids. That's why there's no CotF history, when the Andals wrote it down the groups were similar enough they called them all FM.
Yeah I think your right, the giants of the ancient past are confusing, it seems as though the first men were Giant in size and that giants in the past may have been even bigger again
It’s also interesting that the title of the song is “the last of the giants” even though there’s still giants beyond the wall? Perhaps this is referring to a race of even bigger giants that was wiped out? We do hear that the giants Bran the Builder used to raise the wall were “made out to be far larger than they truly were”
And I agree that Bran the Builder may have had CotF blood in him as we hear his father Brandon of the Bloody blade possibly being associated with a Rose of Red Lake, who is a skinchanger and with a natured based name like Rose, could suggest her as a CotF?
@eldric.stoneskin a real world parallel is the use of the word giant when translating the Norse Sagas for the Norse word "jotun". The word giant in modern English means a really big human but that is not what jotun means so it really skews the perception of the audience reading sagas to mistakenly over lay the modern meaning.
The true translation of jotun is not a settled argument. Jackson Crawford argues the most analogous word would be consumer, in a sense of gluttony or destruction.
❤
I guess it’s too obvious… all these brans are the same bran, it’s the bran from our story. He can basically time travel, he had to learn the language of the children. He is the builder and the burner and the broker…
Yeah I think this is very possible as much as people don’t like the theory there is plenty of evidence for it
I certainly could be wrong about it, I’ve heard a lot of theories but ignored many too… I guess I ignored that one cuz I’ve never heard anyone talk about it… I’m not the best at gleaning the pertinent information to help prove of disprove these theories that aren’t obvious and left intentionally vague
Does a greenseer skinchange ONE body at a time, or multiple? One giant can't build The Wall - he'd need to control an army of them. Is there any textual precedent for that?
I believe the only hint of control of multiple bodies is vaguely Varamyr, who seems to have influence on all his animals, while only directly controlling one. More speculatively, the Others lead armies of wights, and resurected animals - so presumably that's telepathic control of multiple bodies.
We also hear that the CotF would send armies of different animals against the first men to fight on their behalf, which possibly suggests they were skin changing or directly influencing multiple bodies as well, it’s speculative but suggested I think
I posted in hate, a moment before Varamyr was brought up. Whether The Others controlling undead wights comes within the same ambit is a separate area for discussion! @@umwha
Yes, that's a very good additional piece of evidence @@eldric.stoneskin
I wonder who told George that it is harder to build a round tower than a square one and why he believed it?
Not sure if he’s just implying that straight walls are a more crude and simpler design, so would therefore have come earlier in the technological tree and using that to throw the suspected timeline into question for his world building