Great stuff. After nearly losing my faith, I decided to finally try hard to get sober. Now, after 171 days of sobriety, I can say that I feel my faith coming back.
Excellent talk. The things of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. This is the foundation. Many great tips about how to defend the Church. Fairmormon.org is a great resource.
Great talk. I vigorously agree that using the Holy Ghost is absolutely required and the means to avoid religious contention. I learned this from a non-member’s advice that we should learn of another’s religion from those of that faith. He recommended establish the ground rules that both sides may only discuss their own religion. He stated that if not done so you will only receive a caricature of the faith they are challenging. Caricature defined: noun 1. a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect."a caricature of Jimmy Durante" verb 1. make or give a comically or grotesquely exaggerated representation of (someone or something). "he was caricatured on the cover of TV Guide" synonyms: parody, satirize, lampoon, make fun of, burlesque, mimic;
I'm not worried about criticism against the LDS church and truth. The devil will always try to stop and darken minds to the truth. He will do everything in his power to try and stop truth from going forth. But Christ has already won the war. Be not dismayed, have faith, no worries. The Church is true!
Honestly we probably have the least skeletons in our closet compared to most religions. Even if you take the worst thing we have it still pales in comparison to the people burned at the stake by the Catholic church or killed by militant Protestants. Heck even Hinduism resulted in a cast system in India that makes what we've done look like sun shine and rainbows. Jesus said that a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Are we really in that bad of a situation or are we just not used to seeing skeletons in our own closets for once?
We need to stop worrying about criticisms. So many other churches have their own problems. They cannot accept that Christ actually loves other peoples of the world and would dare talk to them. They make Christ an idol who is never allowed to mve, act, speak outside of 2000 years ago. We LDS proclaim that Christ is a living God who continues to speak to the world. Remember, most people rejected Christ in his time because he 'went beyond' the scriptures and the law. They will always reject him when they cannot control him to their way of thinking instead of listening to God's direction.
James Stockwell No, the rational. Practical approach. Jesus calls us to LIVE the gospel not contemplate our navals. No amount of temperature taking or scholarship produces faith or revelation, the avenues to communication and oneness with the divine. The great admonition to " Be still and know I am God" is no bury your head in the sand except to ostriches. This is my criticism of over intellectualization of the gospel, not that knowledge and intelligence do not produce bursts of inspiration and questions; however, they do not lead to holiness. Look at Judas who was the most scholarly of the twelve apostles called by Jesus yet he cracked and betrayed the Son of God while the fisherman though flawed and failures in some respects, were the ones whose holiness is revered today. Holy people do not care what naysayers think. Their feet are firmly planted in truth and they live out the gospel every moment of every day and thank is an amazing accomplishment otherwise any fool could spend a minute here and there and turn out holy. Holiness is harder than it looks. If LDS youth spent more time worrying about pleasing God than their perts, boy, the world and church would be a better place.
Sue M, I think I can understand why you believe we should 'stop worrying about criticisms' of the Church. Your argument has some validity. However, if we think outside the box, is there a good reason for us to engage in arguments with these criticizers? When someone criticizes my Church and/or my personal faith, I see that as they wanting to understand me. They say this or that is wrong, and then I explain why this or that is right. We exchange ideas and beliefs. And our argument ends up being a faith building experience--I'm speaking for both of us. I learn something from him and he learns something from me. Actually, the Holy Spirit teaches us both something through the argument. It is true that many anti-Mormons are only interested in insulting and grandstanding. The Spirit guides us to respond appropriately to them. We do not want to miss an opportunity to teach or to learn. Or, even to gain a new friend.
June Kroner Discussion seldom works. Those who are so critical are NOT open to persuasion or facts. It is a waste of time to engage with such individuals. You expect reasonable, curious, intelligent individuals. Those are not the critics. We cannot hope and pray and entreat such. Satan has closed their eyes, ears and mind. The wagon train must move on. Hold your head high and walk forward, not backward, in faith. Towards Christ who is the only one whose opinions we should care about.
Sue, I was baptized Jan. 1980. I was one of those criticizers we are speaking of for 2 or more years before I reluctantly gave in to allowing the Missionaries teach me. I was not an "anti-Mormon" per se, but I was anti-religion. To make a long story short, I hated religions and thought they all were out for money. Unfortunately, I had a bad experience with a church, etc.. years ago. If it was not for one particular friend who kept at me, and who listened to my insults and arguments for more than 2 years, I wonder if I would have ever agreed to listen to the Missionaries. I think you are correct that anti-Mormons are not reasonable with listening to the other guys arguments and that Satan has closed their eyes, ears and minds. And we should move on and not waste our time. But, there are times we encounter 'mild' anti-Mormons who will be earnest In my 36+ years as a Mormon, only a small percentage of all the people I have engaged in conversation with have been open to our doctrine, etc.. But, of those few who did listen 5 gained a testimony of the restored Gospel, 4 were baptized and the others , let us say 'mild criticizers,' went on their sad way. Only two of the anti-Mormons chose to break ties with me. Boy oh boy, they were so mad and expressive with anger, I was dumbfounded. The type of anti-Mormons who are as you have described are not reachable at the time we encounter them, but they may one day in the future chose to let their vain pride take a hike and listen, if but for a little bit. It is not a hopeless situation for all. However, since one does want to be realistic, one understands the odds are that most arguments (honest and true arguments) will not bear enough fruit for baptisms. Maybe, my way of handling anti-Mormons is not for everyone. Not everyone can easily engage people in conversation. Many are so shy or just weighed down with their responsibilities and difficulties that they just can't do it. Their talents are in other areas.
But Sue, what about the lost sheep our Savior told us to find? Yes, you are right that many do not want the truth, so we must learn to discern who they are. I live in an area that I think Utah Mormons call "the mission field." I am missionary-minded. I look for people who will agree to listen to our dear Missionaries. So, I must be engaged in discussions of critical thinking with an exchange of different or opposite views. Most do not want the Elders to teach them. But there are a few who do. That's my testimony. Thank you for your thoughts. Surely, there are many who share your ideas. And maybe there are some who share my ideas. Take care.
so what is the conclusion? how to deal with criticisms? ignore written historical records ,like diaries .etc, if there is anything negative about the prophets or the church in it. why? because maybe the writer was only in a bad mood. And what to do if you run out of answers? Just turn to Jesus and the holy spirit. Dont get me wrong. Lds people are great, there values are great, there communities are great. But why not get real? Just stand up and say, "Its true, we have some skeletons in the closet and we have bad things in our past. like everyone else. But the past is in the past. its over. we are great and we can become even greater." that would be a better way than wasting time and energy trying to white wash everything what is negative.
DerAlchemist01 I agree. We need to stop wringing our hands worried about the truthfulness of the church and just live the gospel. That should keep people busy and engaged enough unless they have mastered Christian discipleship.
I completely agree with that. I am LDS. I espouse those aforesaid points you have listed. I think with the younger, upcoming generation, we are going to see the LDS community seek for the truth more than the previous generations did. For instance, my friends and I (who are in our twenties), eagerly read "Rough Stone Rolling" in order to become updated with the skeletons in our closet. Boy do we have some skeletons too! But it's great to learn from. Some of the older individuals of the church I go to condemned my investigation of our history. So I say, remember our past, get a balanced perspective from various sources, and most importantly, trust in God.
DerAlchemist, I think you are right that some of us try to white wash the mistakes. Isn't that human nature? Don't we all want to look good, and aren't we all ashamed of something we've done in our life time? I am not suggesting that we should try and "explain things away" or deny facts, but, I like concentrating on the right things done, not blind myself to facts but just move-on to better things. Maybe, I gravitate toward the maxim that being civil and pleasant is better than being right--it has it's merits.
I think sometimes things in the past appear negative to people now but they really aren't negative as we will find out in the next life . People aren't in a position to understand now so things "appear " negative but to "come out and say they are negative , we made a mistake when we didn't would be a lie . So instead it's best to focus elsewhere . I have found the best answer is to read The Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ . If you do you'll know it is true . Nothing else matters .
My brothers read RSR .They don't recommend it . I don't recommend it . I have found the best answer is to read The Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ . If you do you'll know it is true . Nothing else matters . Too much energy is wasted chasing things of the past that we only have partial info on .
Great stuff. After nearly losing my faith, I decided to finally try hard to get sober. Now, after 171 days of sobriety, I can say that I feel my faith coming back.
Excellent talk. The things of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. This is the foundation. Many great tips about how to defend the Church. Fairmormon.org is a great resource.
Ed Pinegar was my stake President who released me from my mission after finishing. Hes such a great guy
Love Brother Pinegar!!
Great talk. I vigorously agree that using the Holy Ghost is absolutely required and the means to avoid religious contention. I learned this from a non-member’s advice that we should learn of another’s religion from those of that faith. He recommended establish the ground rules that both sides may only discuss their own religion. He stated that if not done so you will only receive a caricature of the faith they are challenging. Caricature defined:
noun 1. a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect."a caricature of Jimmy Durante"
verb 1. make or give a comically or grotesquely exaggerated representation of (someone or something). "he was caricatured on the cover of TV Guide"
synonyms: parody, satirize, lampoon, make fun of, burlesque, mimic;
I'm not worried about criticism against the LDS church and truth. The devil will always try to stop and darken minds to the truth. He will do everything in his power to try and stop truth from going forth. But Christ has already won the war. Be not dismayed, have faith, no worries. The Church is true!
Honestly we probably have the least skeletons in our closet compared to most religions. Even if you take the worst thing we have it still pales in comparison to the people burned at the stake by the Catholic church or killed by militant Protestants.
Heck even Hinduism resulted in a cast system in India that makes what we've done look like sun shine and rainbows. Jesus said that a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Are we really in that bad of a situation or are we just not used to seeing skeletons in our own closets for once?
I love this! Thank you 😊
The way he speaks sounds astonishingly like Pres. Monson did at several points in his presentation. Thanks for sharing this!
I love Brother Ed. He’s the real deal.
This guy got through to me
We need to stop worrying about criticisms. So many other churches have their own problems. They cannot accept that Christ actually loves other peoples of the world and would dare talk to them. They make Christ an idol who is never allowed to mve, act, speak outside of 2000 years ago. We LDS proclaim that Christ is a living God who continues to speak to the world. Remember, most people rejected Christ in his time because he 'went beyond' the scriptures and the law. They will always reject him when they cannot control him to their way of thinking instead of listening to God's direction.
James Stockwell No, the rational. Practical approach. Jesus calls us to LIVE the gospel not contemplate our navals. No amount of temperature taking or scholarship produces faith or revelation, the avenues to communication and oneness with the divine. The great admonition to " Be still and know I am God" is no bury your head in the sand except to ostriches. This is my criticism of over intellectualization of the gospel, not that knowledge and intelligence do not produce bursts of inspiration and questions; however, they do not lead to holiness. Look at Judas who was the most scholarly of the twelve apostles called by Jesus yet he cracked and betrayed the Son of God while the fisherman though flawed and failures in some respects, were the ones whose holiness is revered today. Holy people do not care what naysayers think. Their feet are firmly planted in truth and they live out the gospel every moment of every day and thank is an amazing accomplishment otherwise any fool could spend a minute here and there and turn out holy. Holiness is harder than it looks. If LDS youth spent more time worrying about pleasing God than their perts, boy, the world and church would be a better place.
Sue M, I think I can understand why you believe we should 'stop worrying about criticisms' of the Church. Your argument has some validity. However, if we think outside the box, is there a good reason for us to engage in arguments with these criticizers? When someone criticizes my Church and/or my personal faith, I see that as they wanting to understand me. They say this or that is wrong, and then I explain why this or that is right. We exchange ideas and beliefs. And our argument ends up being a faith building experience--I'm speaking for both of us. I learn something from him and he learns something from me. Actually, the Holy Spirit teaches us both something through the argument. It is true that many anti-Mormons are only interested in insulting and grandstanding. The Spirit guides us to respond appropriately to them. We do not want to miss an opportunity to teach or to learn. Or, even to gain a new friend.
June Kroner Discussion seldom works. Those who are so critical are NOT open to persuasion or facts. It is a waste of time to engage with such individuals. You expect reasonable, curious, intelligent individuals. Those are not the critics. We cannot hope and pray and entreat such. Satan has closed their eyes, ears and mind. The wagon train must move on. Hold your head high and walk forward, not backward, in faith. Towards Christ who is the only one whose opinions we should care about.
Sue, I was baptized Jan. 1980. I was one of those criticizers we are speaking of for 2 or more years before I reluctantly gave in to allowing the Missionaries teach me. I was not an "anti-Mormon" per se, but I was anti-religion. To make a long story short, I hated religions and thought they all were out for money. Unfortunately, I had a bad experience with a church, etc.. years ago. If it was not for one particular friend who kept at me, and who listened to my insults and arguments for more than 2 years, I wonder if I would have ever agreed to listen to the Missionaries. I think you are correct that anti-Mormons are not reasonable with listening to the other guys arguments and that Satan has closed their eyes, ears and minds. And we should move on and not waste our time. But, there are times we encounter 'mild' anti-Mormons who will be earnest In my 36+ years as a Mormon, only a small percentage of all the people I have engaged in conversation with have been open to our doctrine, etc.. But, of those few who did listen 5 gained a testimony of the restored Gospel, 4 were baptized and the others , let us say 'mild criticizers,' went on their sad way. Only two of the anti-Mormons chose to break ties with me. Boy oh boy, they were so mad and expressive with anger, I was dumbfounded. The type of anti-Mormons who are as you have described are not reachable at the time we encounter them, but they may one day in the future chose to let their vain pride take a hike and listen, if but for a little bit. It is not a hopeless situation for all. However, since one does want to be realistic, one understands the odds are that most arguments (honest and true arguments) will not bear enough fruit for baptisms. Maybe, my way
of handling anti-Mormons is not for everyone. Not everyone can easily engage people in conversation. Many are so shy or just weighed down with their responsibilities and difficulties that they just can't do it. Their talents are in other areas.
But Sue, what about the lost sheep our Savior told us to find? Yes, you are right that many do not want the truth, so we must learn to discern who they are. I live in an area that I think Utah Mormons call "the mission field." I am missionary-minded. I look for people who will agree to listen to our dear Missionaries. So, I must be engaged in discussions of critical thinking with an exchange of different or opposite views. Most do not want the Elders to teach them. But there are a few who do. That's my testimony. Thank you for your thoughts. Surely, there are many who share your ideas. And maybe there are some who share my ideas. Take care.
so what is the conclusion?
how to deal with criticisms?
ignore written historical records ,like diaries .etc, if there is anything negative about the prophets or the church in it. why? because maybe the writer was only in a bad mood.
And what to do if you run out of answers? Just turn to Jesus and the holy spirit.
Dont get me wrong.
Lds people are great, there values are great, there communities are great.
But why not get real?
Just stand up and say, "Its true, we have some skeletons in the closet and we have bad things in our past. like everyone else. But the past is in the past. its over. we are great and we can become even greater."
that would be a better way than wasting time and energy trying to white wash everything what is negative.
DerAlchemist01 I agree. We need to stop wringing our hands worried about the truthfulness of the church and just live the gospel. That should keep people busy and engaged enough unless they have mastered Christian discipleship.
I completely agree with that. I am LDS. I espouse those aforesaid points you have listed. I think with the younger, upcoming generation, we are going to see the LDS community seek for the truth more than the previous generations did. For instance, my friends and I (who are in our twenties), eagerly read "Rough Stone Rolling" in order to become updated with the skeletons in our closet. Boy do we have some skeletons too! But it's great to learn from. Some of the older individuals of the church I go to condemned my investigation of our history. So I say, remember our past, get a balanced perspective from various sources, and most importantly, trust in God.
DerAlchemist, I think you are right that some of us try to white wash the mistakes. Isn't that human nature? Don't we all want to look good, and aren't we all ashamed of something we've done in our life time? I am not suggesting that we should try and "explain things away" or deny facts, but, I like concentrating on the right things done, not blind myself to facts but just move-on to better things. Maybe, I gravitate toward the maxim that being civil and pleasant is better than being right--it has it's merits.
I think sometimes things in the past appear negative to people now but they really aren't negative as we will find out in the next life . People aren't in a position to understand now so things "appear " negative but to "come out and say they are negative , we made a mistake when we didn't would be a lie . So instead it's best to focus elsewhere . I have found the best answer is to read The Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ . If you do you'll know it is true . Nothing else matters .
My brothers read RSR .They don't recommend it . I don't recommend it . I have found the best answer is to read The Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ . If you do you'll know it is true . Nothing else matters . Too much energy is wasted chasing things of the past that we only have partial info on .