This is great stuff, this is the first video I've seen talking about bullet drop and hold overs for pistol calibers, but the pcc market is every expanding, your ahead of the game Mick! Great stuff man, great stuff!
Great info. Now I understand why people have said that a 10 yard, 15 yard or 25 yard zero makes hardly any difference. At the normal pistol ranges the difference in POI is less than an inch.
This is great information! I've not seen this put out there for pistols before. I would submit that if you combine this information with the group size a shooter is capable of at a given distance, it will provide better data to make a decision. Example with rifle: - Let's assume a shooter can confidently put their first bullet in a 4 inch group at 100 yards, and a 6 inch group at 150 yards, given a certain situation (position/skill/rifle/adrenaline/cold vs 20 rounds in... etc.) - If a 50 yard zero places the bullets trajectory at 1.5 inches high at 100 yards, then a bullet will land somewhere in a 4 inch circle between 3.5 inches high and .5 inches low. If the bullet trajectory hits 2 inches high at 150, your bullet will land between 5 inches high and 2 inches high. - Compare that with the same shooter who has a zero that hits 1 inch high at 100, they would have a group between 3 inches high and 1 inch low. At 150 the trajectory hits 1.2 inches high, so the group would land between 4.2 inches high and 1.7 inches low. Once you overlay the MOA of the shooter, it adds more value to a flatter trajectory. The smaller the target, the more important this becomes. Not necessarily enough to come to a different conclusion... but maybe.
For good marksmanship, knowing trajactory path is essential. Just zeroing at one distance is not enough. We have to shoot and compare the height, shooting many different distances. I think 15 yard is perfect to zeroing for a pistol. Thanks for the great effort and study.
Very cool analysis. A lot of competition shooters will zero red dots at 15-18 yards. It seems to work well considering target presentations (mostly 5-15 yards, and usually nothing past 30 yards). For irons, I actually use the '5 yard zero' for a couple reasons: 1) If you screw up the trigger press, you're likely to place the shot low. So, this can slightly mitigate bad shots, especially if it is difficult target presentation. 2) Target tracking/transitions onto small targets (think head box at 15-25 yards, or 8" plate) is easier because you'll be able to see most of the target. Unfortunately, I think most people won't be able to utilize this information because their shooting skills aren't up to par.
I have had to learn the trajectory of my p10c suppressor ready. It has always shot low. So learning to compensate and hold over. My cz75 sp01 with suppressor sights. Shoots dead on at 25yds. All about rounds down range and learning your gear.
Im guessing this has come up already but just in case: Dawson Precision has a great sight height calculator on their site as well. Also, big plug for 10-8 performance. I have them on three of my Glocks. Love’m and Hilton is a quality dude that served us all during his time with the FBI.
Problem with that is they are fiber optic, and honestly tritium is a smart move unless you are doing competition. A lot of people more knowledgeable than me seem to still lean towards tritium for a backup. But of course your money means your choice, I can’t deny how nice it was to shoot a pistol with fiber sights.
My takeaways is this: if you properly zero your pistol at 15-25yds your point of impact will be so close to your point of aim that you will not have to worry about any sort of hold over in any practical application.
Good info. I'd say on a pistol with a red dot the 15 yard zero is pretty good zero. Going by that most people shooting pistol won't go beyond 25 yards and in.
CarryTrainer my point is that most don’t have the ability to make a shot with a handgun that far. I know you can, just like I can but a lot of people forget it.
@@CarryTrainer Nice research. I can see why zeroing at 15 yds seems to be recommended. However, at 5 yds, you can almost rule out all human error and still have a tight zero though to 75 yards.
Is there much difference in point of impact with a 147 gr bullet if youre zeroed at 10 yds with a 115 gr bullet? I noticed a .5 inch rise at 10yds with a 125gr bullet. Im asking because i have different weight carry ammo. I know its not ideal to have different weights but i was just curious. I dont switch between weights. I primarily run my 115gr solid copper rounds since im zeroed with those. Thanks!
This is interesting and all but im so used to my pistol that I just have a "feel". I cant explain it but if my sights are pretty close I just adjust and shoot the damn thing. At 3 to 10 yards an "A" zone is plenty big enough not to miss. I have a self defense gun not a "marksman" gun. I think this subject (with pistol) is a little overboard. Cool video though.
Lol yeah you are the one who misses and clips an innocent wife or kid. You have a feel??. What an idiot. Your sights won’t be much different from 3-10 yards. It’s not a feel. It’s that that distance doesn’t change trajectory that much. You are the type who misses those 15 yard, 20 yard shots because you just “aim...” I don’t use the sights boi harharhar hell yeah boi pew pew
"I was having craft day over here..." If only you'd had some red yarn and a hot glue gun- now, that may be a gun we need to discuss point of aim/point of impact. Bahahaha.Thank you for the informative videos- well done, as always.
This is just self flagellation for those of us who are shooting at 15/20 yards at the range. The equations for fluid dynamics, gravity, coefficient of friction, and terminal velocity are complex but doable. But who needs it when you have trigger jerk sending your rounds off to the left. I watched a woman shoot with a red dot at the range a few days ago: red dot dancing around the bullseye and when she shot the hits were all low right. 10 low right even though the red dot was dancing around the middle. What the point?
Mick, what are we doing here buddy? The amount of bullet drop with a 9mm is too negligible to matter. You cannot aim that precisely with a handgun. They dont need to worry about this stuff.
@@jessegpresley Disagree, this is overkill for handgun shooting. Find your ammo, train with it, make sure your bullet hits where your sights / dot is pointed, end of story. Unless you are a competitive bullseye shooter, all this is irrelevant. My point is that this is not an 'essential skill'. This is getting into the weeds of minutia that offers little payoff for real world shooting.
It probably won't make a difference. I probably won't be in a grocery store when a shooting problem arises. The center of my group at 30 yards is 4 inches different with my two carry guns. If my group size under stres at 30 yards is 12 inches. That means half my shots are going to miss with the exact same shooter/gun/situation combo.
Joe, I am suggesting that it matters greatly in low probability situations. By me selecting on sight height instead of another I can literally guarntee I miss half my shots. This is absolutely a thing that matters with pistols.
@@whatsupdate Yah, I've got mine zeroed at 25 right now, makes for holdovers at short range, no fun on USPSA head boxes. 7 sounds promising, thank you.
So you basically just explained Kentucky Windage methodology. Why all the attempted science? Dinging 8” steel under pressure while moving at 10 meters is good enough with a pistol ... pie plate accurate roughly. Anything else with a PD Concealed Carry pistol, is anal. I mean I get wanting to shoot happy faces on silhouettes at 50 meters ... but it’s a waste of time and ammo IMHO. Now, pardon me while I get back to my grip squeezing and strengthening exercise machines.
No we actually explained how to legitimately zero and understand the ballistics of the gun. To frivolously state "such and such is good enough" completely goes against any spirit or concept of excellence. Not what I do or how I live, but you do you.
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This is great stuff, this is the first video I've seen talking about bullet drop and hold overs for pistol calibers, but the pcc market is every expanding, your ahead of the game Mick! Great stuff man, great stuff!
Great info. Now I understand why people have said that a 10 yard, 15 yard or 25 yard zero makes hardly any difference. At the normal pistol ranges the difference in POI is less than an inch.
This is great information! I've not seen this put out there for pistols before.
I would submit that if you combine this information with the group size a shooter is capable of at a given distance, it will provide better data to make a decision.
Example with rifle:
- Let's assume a shooter can confidently put their first bullet in a 4 inch group at 100 yards, and a 6 inch group at 150 yards, given a certain situation (position/skill/rifle/adrenaline/cold vs 20 rounds in... etc.)
- If a 50 yard zero places the bullets trajectory at 1.5 inches high at 100 yards, then a bullet will land somewhere in a 4 inch circle between 3.5 inches high and .5 inches low. If the bullet trajectory hits 2 inches high at 150, your bullet will land between 5 inches high and 2 inches high.
- Compare that with the same shooter who has a zero that hits 1 inch high at 100, they would have a group between 3 inches high and 1 inch low. At 150 the trajectory hits 1.2 inches high, so the group would land between 4.2 inches high and 1.7 inches low.
Once you overlay the MOA of the shooter, it adds more value to a flatter trajectory. The smaller the target, the more important this becomes. Not necessarily enough to come to a different conclusion... but maybe.
Possibly the best explanation and visual I have seen. Thank you.
I was wondering why my shots goes high or low, thank you for your information , very helpful 👍
I find the pearl target hilarious! I bet that was a bunch of fun to create.
Great video, and terrific explanation. Really appreciate the content and the way with which you deliver it. Well thought-out and factual.😁😁
Fantastic video! No one talks about this. Most folks are out there guessing through their range trip.
The target at the end. 🤣🤣🤣
Excellent info and video!
Thank you so much for this video! Among with your other videos it allows me to become more educated! Best videos on TH-cam no doubt.
Nice work on providing facts.
Good stuff. Found my range work for tomorrow. It'll be interesting to see how it compares to my normal training ammo as well.
For good marksmanship, knowing trajactory path is essential.
Just zeroing at one distance is not enough.
We have to shoot and compare the height, shooting many different distances.
I think 15 yard is perfect to zeroing for a pistol.
Thanks for the great effort and study.
Very cool analysis. A lot of competition shooters will zero red dots at 15-18 yards. It seems to work well considering target presentations (mostly 5-15 yards, and usually nothing past 30 yards).
For irons, I actually use the '5 yard zero' for a couple reasons: 1) If you screw up the trigger press, you're likely to place the shot low. So, this can slightly mitigate bad shots, especially if it is difficult target presentation. 2) Target tracking/transitions onto small targets (think head box at 15-25 yards, or 8" plate) is easier because you'll be able to see most of the target.
Unfortunately, I think most people won't be able to utilize this information because their shooting skills aren't up to par.
That’s competition. This is carry.
Mick, you're the Bob Ross of ballistics!
Hahahhaha. I miss him
Great info as always, but COME ON.....That target at the end. How can you not notice what it looks like. Zee was probably laughing when they made it.
Absolutely beautiful video, thanks
Excellent info
Great information Mick, thank you for sharing.
Where can I find the stats on where Trijicon HD XR sights will zero?
I have had to learn the trajectory of my p10c suppressor ready. It has always shot low. So learning to compensate and hold over. My cz75 sp01 with suppressor sights. Shoots dead on at 25yds. All about rounds down range and learning your gear.
Im guessing this has come up already but just in case:
Dawson Precision has a great sight height calculator on their site as well.
Also, big plug for 10-8 performance. I have them on three of my Glocks. Love’m and Hilton is a quality dude that served us all during his time with the FBI.
Problem with that is they are fiber optic, and honestly tritium is a smart move unless you are doing competition. A lot of people more knowledgeable than me seem to still lean towards tritium for a backup. But of course your money means your choice, I can’t deny how nice it was to shoot a pistol with fiber sights.
Lol, that pearl target looks a little sus. Nice info to know though 👍thanks for your time and knowledge.
As we use to say in the Marine Corps, "It's not always the dope on the weapon, sometimes it's the dope behind it"!
Do you have a printable version of your chart? This is great info! Thank you!
With iron sights is this aiming with the actual dot or the top part of the front sight?
Great depictions. It would also would help to show the arc and straight line of sight and then show the various yards along that arc.
This is the only math I understand. Great video!!
This guy needs his own channel
Maybe your best video ever!!!
My takeaways is this: if you properly zero your pistol at 15-25yds your point of impact will be so close to your point of aim that you will not have to worry about any sort of hold over in any practical application.
Anyway you can do a review of S&W SD9
GREAT INFO!!!! AS ALWAYS!!!
This is good stuff. Thanks
I'm all about calculations. Which ballistic calculator do you recommend? Thx brother. Great explanation.
Good info. I'd say on a pistol with a red dot the 15 yard zero is pretty good zero. Going by that most people shooting pistol won't go beyond 25 yards and in.
Most people means nothing to me.
CarryTrainer my point is that most don’t have the ability to make a shot with a handgun that far. I know you can, just like I can but a lot of people forget it.
@@brandonfisher4436 saying it only matters what the individual wants
CarryTrainer ok I misunderstood. But exactly my point as well. 👍
Mickey, you use this system for carbines, don't you...??? I've seen this formula used with a 5.56 carbine. It works...
Of course
Which zero causes it to hit low at 12-15
What was the "control" for these ballistics? 4.25" barrel i'm assuming? Or are you going off of pure FPS from the round?
Meaningless. Velocity is the factor
@@CarryTrainer Nice research. I can see why zeroing at 15 yds seems to be recommended. However, at 5 yds, you can almost rule out all human error and still have a tight zero though to 75 yards.
Is there much difference in point of impact with a 147 gr bullet if youre zeroed at 10 yds with a 115 gr bullet? I noticed a .5 inch rise at 10yds with a 125gr bullet. Im asking because i have different weight carry ammo. I know its not ideal to have different weights but i was just curious. I dont switch between weights. I primarily run my 115gr solid copper rounds since im zeroed with those. Thanks!
Great info, but dang, Mick, couldn’t you have done the red dot with the red colors at the end instead of blue?!? 😜😜😜
Excellent presentation. 🇱🇷👍😎☕
Great stuff!
Love the Pearl Target - reminds me of the rocket from Austin Powers for some reason… 🤔🤣
This is interesting and all but im so used to my pistol that I just have a "feel". I cant explain it but if my sights are pretty close I just adjust and shoot the damn thing. At 3 to 10 yards an "A" zone is plenty big enough not to miss. I have a self defense gun not a "marksman" gun. I think this subject (with pistol) is a little overboard. Cool video though.
Lol yeah you are the one who misses and clips an innocent wife or kid. You have a feel??. What an idiot. Your sights won’t be much different from 3-10 yards. It’s not a feel. It’s that that distance doesn’t change trajectory that much. You are the type who misses those 15 yard, 20 yard shots because you just “aim...” I don’t use the sights boi harharhar hell yeah boi pew pew
Good video, thank's...
"I was having craft day over here..." If only you'd had some red yarn and a hot glue gun- now, that may be a gun we need to discuss point of aim/point of impact. Bahahaha.Thank you for the informative videos- well done, as always.
Playing with fixed irons the original dope chart.
This is just self flagellation for those of us who are shooting at 15/20 yards at the range. The equations for fluid dynamics, gravity, coefficient of friction, and terminal velocity are complex but doable. But who needs it when you have trigger jerk sending your rounds off to the left. I watched a woman shoot with a red dot at the range a few days ago: red dot dancing around the bullseye and when she shot the hits were all low right. 10 low right even though the red dot was dancing around the middle. What the point?
The point? Its demanding excellence from oneself. That's the point.
Lee Iacocca, "Where have all the leaders gone?"
Does anyone know where u can get a good deal on bulk practice ammo, how about super vel?
ammoseek.com
Target Sports USA has the best prices in my experience
Sgammo.com
Ammunitionstore.com
Targetsportsusa.com
I do know that im dope. But thank you
I know my dope. He's that guy in the mirror. 😉
So 25 yards then on a red dot... thanks
YO! Good information, thank you. But what the hell is up with the penis target at the end? LOL
That’s why you buy TTI fiber optics I don’t care if he’s creepy!
Man I feel dumb.
Mick, what are we doing here buddy?
The amount of bullet drop with a 9mm is too negligible to matter. You cannot aim that precisely with a handgun. They dont need to worry about this stuff.
Lol wut? 25 yards difference between 115 and 147 can be 5 inches.
@@jessegpresley Disagree, this is overkill for handgun shooting. Find your ammo, train with it, make sure your bullet hits where your sights / dot is pointed, end of story.
Unless you are a competitive bullseye shooter, all this is irrelevant. My point is that this is not an 'essential skill'. This is getting into the weeds of minutia that offers little payoff for real world shooting.
It probably won't make a difference. I probably won't be in a grocery store when a shooting problem arises. The center of my group at 30 yards is 4 inches different with my two carry guns. If my group size under stres at 30 yards is 12 inches. That means half my shots are going to miss with the exact same shooter/gun/situation combo.
@@joeld008 My point exactly.
Joe, I am suggesting that it matters greatly in low probability situations. By me selecting on sight height instead of another I can literally guarntee I miss half my shots. This is absolutely a thing that matters with pistols.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
So then by assumption 18 yards is the best hands down.
Thank you for the video, going to rezero my dot for 10 yards and see what happens.
Strewth Herps I zeroed mine at 7 yards and it was still on the spot for 25 yards
@@whatsupdate Yah, I've got mine zeroed at 25 right now, makes for holdovers at short range, no fun on USPSA head boxes. 7 sounds promising, thank you.
😳
So you basically just explained Kentucky Windage methodology. Why all the attempted science? Dinging 8” steel under pressure while moving at 10 meters is good enough with a pistol ... pie plate accurate roughly. Anything else with a PD Concealed Carry pistol, is anal. I mean I get wanting to shoot happy faces on silhouettes at 50 meters ... but it’s a waste of time and ammo IMHO. Now, pardon me while I get back to my grip squeezing and strengthening exercise machines.
No we actually explained how to legitimately zero and understand the ballistics of the gun. To frivolously state "such and such is good enough" completely goes against any spirit or concept of excellence. Not what I do or how I live, but you do you.
#covermodels
First comment!!
#17......Q? WWG1WGA 🇺🇸 🙏🏼
Huh