Taking Bad Theology to Task
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Watch the full interview with Bishop Barron • Eternal Truth and the ...
Ep.431
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Unbelievable that this wisdom is free. Lord please watch over JBP, he has been my earthly lamp out of hell and I am beyond grateful for you and him.
,, give them hell" because that's what a Christian 's attitude should be like... Right? It's in the words.
For someone claiming to be so careful with his words, this is just horrendous.
@@veronicab15 It's a discussion, you take from it what you want. If you need further information, the Bible is available, the Word of God Himself is available. We all have the free choice to engage and learn or remain in ignorance.
Hang in there, sist@🙏💪
He was the start for me delving back into the Christian ideas and taking them seriously for once. Still learning.
God don’t like people who wants to make money on his word, Jesus told we should give it for nothing
Just came to the enlightenment of my own suffering - I have been Cain. I did not even see my OWN bitterness manifesting itself in my life... Thank you Father for leading me to this simple yet effective counselling tool. May I learn how to turn my suffering into joy for others!!!
Same here, listening to JP's Biblical stories and his breakdown made me realize I was possessed by the spirit of Cain...
Thank God for sharing his Word with all of us wretched creatures.
The spirit of cane is the spirit of satan. Let us work to renounce our will and to become able in Jesus's name ☦️🕊❤️🔥🛐
MrSpock, that is so beautiful 🌹
"...because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in" - Proverbs 3 : 12 - Side note, you might like the work of Fr Anthony Demello when you're ready for it.
Me too!
I wish you two would come on every day and talk about these things. It just fills me up!✝️🙏🏼
Amen!! 🙏🏽
Job says that.
And Jordan also says, "However deep our own suffering is, however arbitrary, however much of it is caused by the malevolence of others, as well as the tragedy of existence, we all know none of it justifies turning away from the good."
- Jordan B. Peterson
everyday He blows my mind a little bit more with His awesome plan.
Its beautiful to hear people speak on how love will always outpace sin. It makes me want to do more good for people by being more generous and caring 😊
Start the 🔥 baby!💨
A person worships what he lacks in him, if he worships love, this indicates that you are fundamentally infected with bloodshed (attributed to the son of Japheth, Noah's son and his descendants, the people of Europe) Ham worships the judgment, and Shem the unity
I homeschool my children and we live in a small village outside of springfield, illinois. They come with me everywhere. We love to go spread silliness and happiness everywhere we go. I have the most complimentary children I have ever met, lol. I told them that when we go out and spread happiness and be nice to people, it may be the only nice thing they've had done for that day or who knows how long. We know how bad it feels to be sad and we know how wonderful it feels to be happy so we want everyone to feel that way.
Adam was not "condemned" to work. He tended (worked) the garden pre-Fall. Rather, work became painstaking after the Fall. That's the kicker!
There you go! You have nailed it.
I heard recently that the charge given to Adam was a punishment (I may say in the way you're describing) but also that more importantly it was a remedy to the Fall. In a word, the Lord commanded us to work the Field to give us peace in our soul while in the fallen world.
Exactly
“Now Adam was created righteous and upright and without sin by God so that he had no need of being justified and made upright through his tilling and keeping the garden; but, that he might not be idle, the Lord gave him a task to do, to cultivate and protect the garden. This task would truly have been the freest of works, done only to please God and not to obtain righteousness, which Adam already had in full measure and which would have been the birthright of us all.” - Martin Luther, On Christian Liberty
The fall introduced fear of the Lord as the motivation for work, which is the root of pride, which in turn is the gateway sin to all the other sins. Initially tending the garden was done out of love of self and others to express gratitude for life.
Bishop Barron is a walking, talking Saint. God bless him! This exchange makes me think of a man and his spiritual director discussing aspects of belief and theology.....and we get to sit in and listen. Awesome! 😊✝️🙏🏼
I say the same! The Big B is gonna change the game !
Yes. Except for the Catholic part………………..kidding. He’s great.
Bishop Barron is a coward and accepts all the rubbish currently pouring out of the Vatican
The Catholic part is the best part. That's where Bishop Barron gets the Truth he preaches so well. 😊❤️🕊️
coward
"Evil is always parasitic upon the Good."
Ooo that’s a great definition.
I think that comes from C.S. Lewis. Or at least, that is where I first read it. It has had an impact on my life.
Homer Simpson said it best when he said, "Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
I think we're supposed to work. Sin simply made us not enjoy it. When we return to our perfect state I think we will enjoy work again. Even God said himself that he works.
There are times when I enjoy work. Sin pulls me away from it. The sin of pride, especially. But when I can push those things aside, I really enjoy hard work.
Some people like to work. I would say our punishment is labor, No one likes to labor lol
As per the Catholic Church, work gives humans dignity....
Genesis 1 and 2 clearly state that God created man to work. Gen. 1:28, God tells Adam to multiple, be fruitful, fill the earth, subdue it and have dominion. You can’t do all that without putting in hard work. Plus, Gen. 2:15, tells us directly that God put Adam in the garden to work it and keep it.
It’s a good thing to work but because God cursed the ground due to Adam’s transgression, it became painful to work the ground.
Edits: spelling and grammar
@ivansvintsitsky8985 correct. He made work difficult. That is not to say that difficult work can't make you feel good. It's the same with suffering. Suffering premafacia doesn't feel good, but good can come out of it.
1) Work is not a result of the fall. Futility in work is a result of the fall.
2) Everything that happened to Job also happened to Job's wife. But she didn't handle it as well.
1) In the garden, fruit just grew and they ate it. they did not have to labor for it... so yes, the necessity to work came with the fall. I like the King James version: cursed for thy sake. Work is to Man's benefit. People are better when we learn to work. Take away meaningful work and men whither.
I have no idea where you get the idea that work is inherently futile or that Adam's work to feed and protect his family after the fall was futile.
@@xanuui
If "astounding ability to misread" was a person, it'd be you.
Work is not futile. "By the sweat of your face you will eat bread." It's the opposite of futile.
@@leviwarren6222
See my above comment. Why can't others get what this person is trying to say?
@@leviwarren6222 Might I recommend the book of Ecclesiastes. I think it explains what is meant here.
Been listening to Bp. Barron for years. Love that he's talking with Jordan.
I love what I do for a job. I get frustrated/angry with people who make it harder than it needs to be. The work is simple if you think but so many are not mindful of their actions myself as well at times.
Please invite Fr. Chad Ripperger to your show. He will be a delight to you and your audiences.
Yes!!!
Amazing conversation. Thank you for allowing us to listen.
There was work in the Garden, there might even be work in Heaven. I think what Dr. Peterson is referring to is TOIL, work that is difficult and unenjoyable.
Looking forward to the full interview!
I love both of you and glad you are talking.
I want more of these two men talking together. Awesome.
This was tremendous! So interesting and helpful. Thank you both.
What a beautiful discussion !
15:45 "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me" is not said in despair. Jesus is quoting Psalm 22 there, which explains to the witnesses of the crucifixion what is happening.
Hold on, you missed something at the start. God gave Adam work from the very beginning. He was told to name the animals, to tend the garden, to subdue the earth and have dominion over it. That was all before the fall.
You are confusing two different things. Toil in the garden would be akin to a hobby. The work after the fall is a hard labor and a more unenjoyable effort. Man’s work after the fall is a punishment. It looks like you are ignoring the fact that man was punished after the fall with having to work for survival. Genesis 3:17-18.
@@paulmualdeave5063 how deranged you got to be ,to believe this shit?
@@paulmualdeave5063 I'm not confusing them. I'm well aware of the curse. I'm just pointing out that work is a good thing, and not a result of the curse.
We can say that HARD work is because of the curse.
The hardest problem I’ve had is being able to work with my brother and dad. The natural bitterness of Cain & Able is very obvious yet I am female. It doesn’t ever work itself out as my brother is miserable at his job and feels trapped. When I come along to help he gets even more miserable and treats me subservient but doesn’t know he’s doing it until I am outside my skin ready to fight. It’s a real problem
Thank you, I needed this today!
Tks. Dr. J !!
Thanks for this this is just what I needed to hear very good
Thank you
Very good perspectives here, thank you.
God placed Adam in the garden to work it before the fall of man. Work was always in the plan for God.
Yeah. And He cursed the ground. So you’ll kind of work yourself to death
@@HL19860410 No. More like work would also suck instead of just fulfilling.
I love Bishop Barron. He speaks the Truth.
I always thought on message of the apple is that once you know something, you have an understanding, grasp and awareness of a piece of information …you can’t unknow it, you gain power via knowledge but that power gives you the burden of the responsibility to act and address knowledge/issue…and we aren’t God, we are human, we won’t bring about the perfect right outcome, it will be uncomfortable and hard, but we have to act because we aren’t in the garden, we are in the harsh world and not acting is us trying to return to the garden but the angels will drive us…none action and trying to be ignorant causes pain
Work was given before the fall. Work has never been a curse but a blessing
Humanity and the earth itself were cursed.
As facing the serpent on the crosses, understanding the stitching of the first a second coming would also benefit, as its not a momentary historical glance, but a across earth-heavenly-past-future stitch.
Awesome!!!
Always enjoy hearing Bishop Baron. Here, His Excellency speaks about work as feeing good as we exercise our power. It reminds me of Paul's teaching us in Colossians that, whatever we do, do it heartlily, as to the Lord. Wouldn't that give our work an entirely new and refreshing meanjng!
Exactly 💯
The Israelites left Egypt with all the silver and gold of Egypt and they left wearing all the fine atire of the Egyptians and there was not one feeble man or woman among them and they left singing and dancing and in great joy - healthy and wealthy and full of hope for the future. In most films and illustrations the Israelites are depicted leaving Egypt wearing rags and being tired and hungry poor, old and some crippled - false narrative.
"sin can never outpace the grace." Great stuff.
Good stuff
Jordan, you probably won't see this, but Adam had work to do before the 'fall'. He was to name all the animals. He was also put there to tend the garden (2:15). He may not have seen it as work, but after the 'fall' the work became more tedious because of the thorns and such.
He was sent to subdue the earth that was Adam job. The garden was is launch pad to start that job.
Moment where JP shuts up and lets his guest transcend him: 8:12
Thank you!! He was simply embarrassing himself as long as he was talking.
Being on a journey with God and discovering His Word is the greatest adventure of all time. Dr. Peterson's takes on the Bible look like series of MRI scans of some magnificent brain to me: always discovering something new, always looking deeper.
the only true work is the Great Work.
the fruition of which is, " I do what I see my Father doing."
This is what is going on when Christ says “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” He is quoting Psalm 22, which describes what is happening to Him during the crucifixion. It is not an expression of despair.
What a great guest you had there
I think work certainly is a type of sacrifice associated with Eros. But there is a sacrifice that is from Agape which is a total self emptying. Kenosis which is depicted in the crucifixion.
The mentioned (13:20) Hebrew term common to tilling the soil and care of the Temple is 'Avoda'. While this root (AVD) is also used for slavery, it does not have to contradict the idea of voluntary devotion. It may be seen as meaning 'service to the future or to infinite beyond'. In the context of slavery it does not have to be a bitter and resentful slave but can be an enthusiastic servant!
Wow! I get it! I get to both ask the questions and answer them! I am so smart!😜
Despite being totally cut off from the Father while on the cross, Christ never ceased looking to and reaching for the Father. wow
The crux of Job, for me, is in Job 42:5 ... “I had heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. In verse 4 he says "I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." and in verse 6 he says, "Therefore I abhor myself, and I repent In dust and ashes..." Job had lived a righteous life based on his limited understanding of what he had heard regarding God, but when God finally revealed Himself to Job, Job realized that his own righteousness was abhorrent. He realized he hadn't ever really known God. The suffering was a great mercy to Job and enabled him to let go of his self righteousness. God desires a deep and meaningful relationship with us and to reveal many things of Himself to us, but often times we are already so full of our own things. Even good things. We often try so hard to be good, but God is not interested in our natural goodness. He wants to be our righteousness; to receive Him as our righteousness. "There is none that is good, not even one". Lord, grant us a humble and seeking heart to know You in this way.
They already had work: to tend and keep the garden. It was presumably meaningful and pleasant. It became to also hold an element of suffering and sacrifice as did everything else in life after the sentencing of those who took part in 'the fall'.
Amen!
adam was given work before the fall. scientific work. taxology. it's important we don't conflate work with the fall. work was assigned from the beginning and will endure into eternity.
😂 ... "There's Mrs. Job..." 😂🤣
Amen
I enjoyed Peterson using the word concatenation to describe the onslaught of suffering Jesus went through on the cross. I've only ever heard that word used in computer language terms, but it's a perfect description.
"Work alone is your proper business, never the fruits it may produce"... Bhagavad-Gita
exactly!!
Jordan, you should check out the typologies of the Eucharist and of Mary, respectively. I bet you would get a big kick out of that.
Dr. Jordan Peterson and Bishop R. Barron speaking about this teaching that is so important for humanity, it would be very interesting if they also invited Dr. John MacArthur from the other line and with great wisdom, his studies of the Old Testament would give us much more certainty to the topic.
Ive got a bit of a different take on Cane and Able ive been mulling since your original biblical series. If god is real or rather if real is god then God for all intents and purposes is Reality itself. Cane becomes bitter because he misundertands the nature if sacrifice he make sacrifices expecting certain things to happen and when those things dont happen as he expects he is burned twice, he sacrificed something of value and didnt get what he wanted in return.
He was a farmer, lets say he wants to improve thebyeildnofnhis crops and he thinks "if put something valueable into the ground i will get something of value out". He thinks to himself salt is valuable and if i put it into the soil i will be returned a greater harvest, value for value. So he spends his money and puts some salt in the soil and his crops do poorly, he's been burned twice once by giving up the salt and he didnt get the harvest he expected. I dont think he makes the bad choices because he's willing to do evil or wickedness he becomes bitter because he feels that god is betraying him when in reality he is not. You cant simply exchange value for value, if you want rich crops you have to find good fertilizer and nothing else will make give you the rich harvest (im over simplifing im sure there are numberous things can be done to enhance a harvest, not the point) pooring salt on the ground will not yeild the harvest you seek.
In that way i feel like this story we in the west are living out, people making wrong sacrifices to try to shape the world as they see fit and the people who understand the world and work within its rules and do well. People are becoming bitter because they made bad sacrifices and are nownwithout whatbtheu gave up and without what they hoped to achieve.
God not god.
Cain was a tit for tat sacrificer. That never works because it treats blessings as commodities to be bought and sold. God is not for sale.
If real is God... I like that. That works too, because as Aquinas said, God is non-contingent being itself, which his transcendent qualities of Truth, Beauty, and Goodness just being how we approach this deepest reality using our mind, our emotions, and our will (the three parts of our soul). The danger with thinking this way, even though it's true, is that we can also forget that God is those things but PERSONIFIED. If we forget that, we can get more transactional, thinking that if we figure out how reality works, we can just treat it as a thing rather than an interactive person (or 3 persons).
@@DavidLarson100 I borrowed that from Dr. Peterson in an older video. It's a fascinating view and it makes the Bible extremely clear, take Moses' interact with God where God hides him in a crevasse and allows him to look at God's "Hind Parts". If you take God as reality itself that would mean that we can't truly look apon the creation of reality itself but we can see it's results, no man could ever truly fathom but we can comprehend the results. You are correct that people could take that and become transactional with God and reality but it is important to remember that reality isn't just an object but something/someone which which you have a relationship. They are coequally important and without one you can't have the other, much the same way Love and truth are coequal truth without love is just facts without value and love without truth is foolishness. You can't treat God as merely transactional object but neither can you treat him as only a person, both incomplete views lead people astray.
@@ryanscanlon2151 Actually, these might be better.
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They had to work before the fall. Work is not part of the curse. A sore back and bad knees come from the curse.
I think the biggest issue with Christianity, as with most ideologies, is that it tends to be poorly represented by the people who profess to believe in its tenants. The ideology itself gets lost in the backlash against the hypocrites, the abusers, and those who use it solely as a political tool of control. TV Evangelists have probably done more to turn people off of religion than anyone else besides the Catholic church and its insistence on protecting child abusers.
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
it is difficult to work within your struggle, when the banal narcissistic world denies the idea of work, struggle and self control and demands you achieve nothing with your life.
Work has always been a Godly activity and a gift rather than a curse. God worked and so should we. Adam and Eve were instructed to work before the fall. After the fall it became a difficult thing in certain ways but work has always been a good thing in God's eyes. It's a blessed thing to be able to work.
Everyone seems to have laps in memory about the FLOOD!
I just love Jorden. He looks at every crack and crevice of things. Yet, I find that he and others complicate the walk with Jesus. The good book tells us that we will miss out unless we come as children to God. I never saw a child who had to investigate every minutia of something before accepting it. The children came to Jesus because they could see and feel his love. Christ's love emanated from him. I don't have to know how God managed to do all the wonders that he has. I wonder at his love for a sinner like me. An unconditional love that surpasses all understanding. Acknowledging that I want to do what is good, righteous, and true to make Him proud. The rest is interesting but we will never know for sure until we get to stand before Jesus and the saints and ask these questions.
How should we respond/react to our bad 'friends'? How about in the way Job handled 'friends' that blamed. Job 42:10 "And the LORD restored Job s losses when he prayed for his friends. Indeed the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before."
I'm gonna have to go look again, but my memory is that only AFTER the curse did man begin to till the soil and work very hard for little return by the sweat of his brow. Before the curse I don't think it says that the soil was being worked.
I love you Jordan and your suit looks amazing. But that pen?
I wish commentators would comment on the young man who when the old friends of Job fell silent rebuked them before the Lord spoke.
Wow.
I wonder if Jordan’s biblical series could be re-recorded with better quality audio? The early stuff is challenging to listen to.
Bad theology is thinking Hell is empty.
Here is what is necessary about the sacrifice before the end. It must be the humble bowing to "what God said".
The Tower of Babel wasn't a lack of God. But demanding to call God down on one's own terms.
Cain brought something, but not what God said.
They Israelites in the desert, made a cow and called it YHWH.
None of this was okay with God.
It was not trite it was a conversation that exposes the foundations of all Pharisees including ourselves. God was a warning his people through Job that they were not going to receive his suffering servant.
You will find this wisdom in all stories, people felt necessary to preserve over generations. The individual struggle with truth is necessary. You mustn't institutionalize and codify it. Religion is the death of faith.
This was also Spinoza’s insight, in thinking of evil as degrees of privation of or from God, the good, in his Ethics.
Wait, wait. There's an issue of imprecise phrasing, at 0:10. The post-Edenic reality isn't that Adam is "condemned to work," as if work were intrinsically a bad thing. He had a work-assignment in the garden, also: To "tend and keep" it, using exactly the same pairing of Hebrew verbs used to describe the duties of the Aaronic priests in the Tabernacle/Temple. The pre/post-Fall difference, then, isn't _work_ as such. The difference is whether you're working because you're "on mission" (living out a holy calling for which you were created, deputized, and empowered by God), or, because you're just scraping by paycheck-to-paycheck, hand-to-mouth, in a fashion that's just sufficient to "keep body and soul together."
This _seems_ to be a contrast between _meaningful_ work (the holy calling) and "meaningless work." However, that's a surface-level reading. Even the difficult "sweat of your brow" work _can_ be meaningful, but the meaning is less-obvious. You find meaning in the drudgey _through_ the suffering. And that's where it can become a self-sacrifice or self-abnegation which transforms it right back into another holy calling! ...but, it's also where one can become embittered, rejecting the difficult idea of meaningful suffering. So, once again, we encounter the hinge between the sacrifice of Abel and the sacrifice of Cain: Drudgery undertaken as a penance and self-donation is infused with grace. But drudgery endured without that purpose of humble sacrifice remains meaningless.
I wish JP had a theologian who had the time to disciple him.
Have you ever considered that the "Garden of Eden" story is not about a garden or apple at all, but is an allegorical or archetype story about a "State of Being". The difference between what might be called the "original authentic state", (of Being) and a "false and phoney, and inauthentic state" (of Being) It was all about "Lies and Deceit", and the concept that if you are INAUTHENTIC YOU SUFFER. Then what would AUTHENTIC BE??? Well Mankind was "created in the image of God" and if you are not in that image, then you are INAUTHENTIC from the BEING THAT YOU WERE CREATED TO BE.
The paradox is, "if we are created in the image of God", then "lies and deceit" are both "Self Deceit" and "Deceit of God", or MISALIGNMENT WITH SOURCE, or TOTALLY INAUTHENTIC. So then it has to be questioned "what is it about US that is in the image of God?", and I would argue that it is: "Consciousness", "Mind", "Self Awareness", "Thought", "Knowingness", "Reasoning" etc. etc.
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become.” - Buddha. Now God described Himself to Moses as I AM, THAT I AM, which can be interpreted as I AM whatever I say and believe that I am. And Mankind is in the very same image as THAT. Buddha came at this concept from a different direction, but the conclusion is NO DIFFERENT. """IT IS THOUGHT THAT CREATES SUFFERING""" Like all original concepts, that concept got polluted with "No Thought" concepts, as well as "Right Thought" concepts.
I would argue that it is Wrong Thought" that "Creates Suffering" and "Right Thought" that creates satisfaction, happiness, joy etc. (THE AUTHENTIC, AND NOT FALSE, "STATE OF BEING") You could equate the concept of "Right Thought" with the word LOVE. Then the statement in the Bible "God is Love" would make more sense. The term EGO would be the INAUTHENTIC SELF.
As long as we make the biblical argument a matter of good over evil, we stay mired in frustration. Paul made the Gospel an argument of law (the reckoning of good over evil) vs grace for a reason. Grace, the antithesis of judgment, does not come through law. It comes through faith-the handing over of the gavel to "the one who judges justly" (1 Peter 2:23).
After thirty chapters of futilely arguing good and evil with his three friends (playing judge), Job realized what Paul did. "My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you." No longer was God a mere religion or set of standards to litigate, but the Creator of this world to see and deal with eye-to-eye. Wasn't this also the example of a certain son to his father-one which the disciple is encouraged to follow?
I may be misjudging but I get a sense that JPs discussion of Christ as the ultimate example whose actions transform and transcend... and in a practical sense we must do similarly, almost over emphasizes a lifetime of Christ Like works to achieve what Christ did.
By contrast BB points to the 2nd member of the trinity uniting himself to human nature brings humanity with him on line. I think BB's statements properly point to what Paul is saying in
Colossians 1:21-22 This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions. 22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.
Once you stand on this reality that Christ's actions are the only necessary provision for reconciliation with God you accept that your sonship/citizenship is secured by grace with no added benefit from our efforts. Once that Identity is accepted and set you can then partner with the Spirit and begin living out a life that is focused on and empowered to embody the same pattern as Christ. This where JP'S statements would come into practical play. The order of these two things cannot be mixed up.
That hit me hard. Evile is parasitic and it cannot exist without good to feed upon.
Why is elihu not rebuked by god in the story of job .....and why in chapter 32 elihu speak of what sounded to me of Jesus .....33:23 and I might have that wrong on chapter and section .....but it has always made me wonder what's going on their
13:23 the term for the tilling of the soil is עָבַד ābad
Usage examples:
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden **to dress** it and to keep it.
GEN2:15
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, **to till** the ground from whence he was taken.
GEN3:23
And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will **serve** thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
GEN29:18
And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may **serve** me.
EXO8:1
Six days shalt thou **labour,** and do all thy work: but the seventh is a sabbath rest unto the Lord.
EXO20:9
And they shall keep his charge, and the charge of the whole congregation before the tabernacle of the congregation, **to do** the service of the tabernacle.
NUM3:7
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and **bring to pass** his act, his strange act.
ISA28:21
To worship means to work for
I will take "bad theology" to task by saying, do not base your theology on the works of Jordan Peterson!
He is a deep and interesting thinker, but his conclusions are often weird, if not just wrong.
For example, The theme of the Bible is not us working out work out "the highest form of sacrifice". A proper definition must start and end with God. Something like: "The revealing of who God is (e.g. His mercy, justice, power and love) and the fulfilment of His purposes, despite man's sin and disobedience."
I would also mention that the curse placed on Adam was painful toil, not work. Adam in the garden worked. Even God works! Work is a blessing, not a curse.
Yes
In your opinion what is the difference between painful toil and work?
Yes, I like JP, but he's the last person that should be complaining about bad theology
He gets alot of it wrong, he told Shawn Ryan last week that Christians will go through exactly what Jesus went through in every way, Shawn (a new Christian was confused) and asked "literally" and JP told him yes. Checkout Larry Alex Taunton's podcast from 2 weeks ago on this, it's really good.
@@xanuui If you do not mind, I will slightly modify the question. It is not so much work verses toil but work in Eden verses work “East of Eden” after the fall.
How is work in Eden different from outside Eden?
We do not know exactly what work was like in Eden. However,
• the word Eden means something like delight, or a place of pleasure and
• it was a place where God walked and talked to man.
So whatever work was like, it must have not been too bad.
As a side note, the picture of heaven in Revelation mentions a similar vision of work and life.
Revelation 22:1-5 NIV
22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
What is work like after the fall?
Firstly,
• we live “East of Eden, (that is outside God’s pleasure).
• Here sin and decay live. Here we bear the results of our fractured relationships with God, the environment and with each other.
Secondly, we live under curses.
Genesis 3:16-19 NIV
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
Why is work now “painful toil”?
From the explanation that God gives, I would say.
• Our pleasures will now be mixed with pain. v16
• The ground will not be as productive so it will take much work to get anything out of it. v17 v19
• The ground will work against us so we will be frustrated by problems that were not meant to have happened. v18
• And our work will eventually be in vain for we will die. V19
As a side note, I would say that a part of being a child of God and being obedient to Him is that the effects of sin and curses are reduced.
• For example, the land promised to the people of Israel was one “flowed with milk and honey”. A part of the story in the OT is that how they benefited from this promise depended on how faithful they were to God.
Christians also have our experience of "painful toil" altered. For example:
Colossians 3:22-25 NIV
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
Thus
• We must work for God, not man. v23
• When we do, He will reward us accordingly. v24
Hope that helps
In Hosea, God says I require mercy not sacrifice. The highest form of sacrifice is mercy? Christ makes those concepts isomorphic in his life, death and resurrection.
Good on you Jordan.
Yes, it seems like Job’s story is a foreshadowing (although to a lessor degree, and Job is a human) of what happens to Jesus. I loved this observation by Peterson. ❤✝️
Uh oh. JBP just used "begs the question wrong" 🤭
I now fear the day when another Ms. Joab comes around that has access to nuclear missiles...
0:29
I want to call out TH-cam for superimposing an ad without pausing the video. And to use an ad for Hallow is adding insult to injury. Shame on you TH-cam. Stop doing this.
Eve though 🤦
Didnt dive into Leviathan and Behemoth enough 😢sad
Yo Momma Behemoth
I am alone but I am not alone..