Those home games in LA u spoke of sound atrocious...reminds me of some road games Doyle Brunson wrote about in his book! He not only had to worry about the lw busting games but also crooked games and robbers. I've been a big part of home games, I've helped run games but mostly dealt in them. U learn quick who to trust and who not to trust. It often sucked that the weakest players with big rolls always played in the worse locales...making u wonder why they went there and didn't come to our games that were ran honest. Also, nothing messes up a home game more than having people on the books. If Mike owes 500 to our game he won't come next week because he'll have to pay that before he play (usually), so he ends up going across town to play because he don't owe them, making u lose players. Sucks. Best thing is to run it with no credit. Plus the house man that allows folks on the books has to cover the losses out of his pocket. Nice video on this one. Thanks for the great videos! Can't speak for the camera...I can't tell a difference between what's good and what's bad! 😂
What a stupid fold. If I was the villain, this is how this would’ve went down: you make the bet and before your chips are in I’ve already flicked in one chip and said call.
@@joshmullins4849 lol Also this isn’t an underbluffed line at all. When you down bet or check back flop after a 3 or 4 bet pre it is one of the most overbluffed lines
Some clarification on what the "rock" is. The rock is basically a randomized straddle. It's generally put into the first pot of the first shuffle. The winner of the first pot gets the "rock". The Rock is worth whatever amount the house/floor deems it to be - usually 10, 15, 20, 25 etc. The player that has the rock must put it out when they are either UTG, or on the BTN and it is treated as if a player was actually straddling to that amount. When the rock is in play, the winner of the hand will collect the pot and the rock as well and now must use it for their UTG or BTN straddle.
Good explanation. I have played in private/underground NYC games myself that utilized the rock. I’m actually surprised not many people in other areas of the country have never heard of the rock before.
So on a hand when the rock is in play, can a different player still straddle? What would happen if the player with the rock is UTG and button wants to straddle, and vice versa?
This game sounds wild. Caller's rationale sounds spot on all the way through. I started the hand thinking I would probably fold the weakest suited Aces to the cold 4bet, but after the reveal I see why the caller wouldn't do that in this game! Cracking call/discussion.
Good comments from chat. All in on river with this play. Villian would have thought about it less. Hero extra polarized with not going all in and threw Villan off. When I do this, 90% of the time I get looked up
Was there ever a doubt the caller is going to bluff someone off a hand? I love the callers that you know will win the hand, in dramatic fashion, within the first 60 seconds of the call.
I would surmise that it’s easier to call with J8because of the situation you mentioned about blocking sets and adjusting towards the end. If he has aces with Ace of hearts that would skew the hero towards having more of the sets and two pairs on the board.
How does villain not raise the turn on a two flush draw heavy board. KX never folding to raise there. Please bring fish to my local game please and thank you
right? in my opinion, if you got backdoor hearted then so be it. 2 pair is going to beat most things here .Wonder what villain thought hero had before he showed, had to think he had hearts I guess
I'm in NYC and I've played at some of these private games. I do it for fun, but since I have a car I'm much happier playing 2/5 at Parx or Wind Creek(he forgot this one, a little closer than Parx and only like $15 in tolls vs $30+ for Parx). I honestly just don't have the bankroll to handle the swings. As the caller said, these games play huge, there's no way to play with just 1k or less without massive variance and just shoving pre a lot of the time. Still, a surprisingly robust scene for games that rake $20+/hand.
There's a lot of them upstate now, but AC is probably still closer. I know they have one in Amsterdam which is about 3 hours from the city.Turning Stone is about 5 hours from the city, their poker room isn't terrible.
Apples and Watermelons, but I played in a game in east bay (SF) where there were 2-3 [uniformed] dealers playing at my table the whole time...they tended to be VERY splashy and pushing around the $1/$2 table, then they always tipped like $12/hand. I don't want to bad mouth the place because it may have only happened that night when they were struggling to keep 2 tables going, but it didn't feel "right" to me at the time.
2:15 The rock we're talking about is not part of what we're going to talk about. The rock is part of the game that we're not going to talk about! Long live the rock!!
Watching this has made me wonder if there isnt something to the idea of a game format where multiple pros collaborate and make joint decisions on hands. Put 3 groups of pros side by side by side, and watch as they play heads up against the same hand/runout. See which team makes the better decisions in the long term, and whether their frequency of correct calls makes them more profitable than the other teams of pros vs a pro that just plays individually
Shouldn't villain bet or check-raise the turn if he's worried about the flush or any other holding of the hero? He does have a strong hand there, even for a rock.
I noticed that Big Bets on the Turn and River are more likely to be perceived and be a Bluff compared to smaller Value Bets. I started Bluffing with smaller bets and was Shocked when they got threw at a high rate.
Has anyone done the math on how many bb/100 you need to be beating the game for to break even per 1$ of rake. It would be interesting to see an educated breakdown of it for 1/2, 2/5 and 5/10.
I’ll take a stab... assuming 25 hands per hour, each player’s share of the rake is $2.77 per hour per dollar of rake taken each hand ($1 times 25 hands divided by 9 players). From there you have to make some assumptions on the average pot size to get more detailed. Assuming it’s $5 max rake and the average pot is raked $3, each player’s share is $8.31 an hour (2.77x3). So you’d have to win roughly 1.5bb an hour at 2/5 or 4bb an hour at 1/2 JUST to break even from the rake.
The bluff was great, but it seems to me villain checked back the flop for pot control. I do not think leading the turn is going to get him off of anything ever, and this bluff is so played specific It's pretty high risk. I like it, just make sure you know your opponent can fold.
That was pretty much the dynamic of the hand : Villain was a (over-) thinking and exploitative ( against the general field) player, leveling himself by not expecting a significant amount of bluffs. - As Hero really "has to" understand the risk that Villain is supposed to call down quite lightly, after his flop check. 😉 .
I live in NYC & would love to play but the rake and security concerns have kept me out. I can't imagine walking out of some random apartment building in Brooklyn at 3 AM with $10K cash in my pocket....
@@stephpom5373 expect on the call with Bart when the villian claimed 2 pair, he was expecting the call to put him out of his misery. The bluff shouldn't have worked against 2P and he wasn't trying to get that to fold..
Was playing a 5/5 plo game yesterday and there was five $2 chips taped together, was that the rock? Winner of the last pot has it each time I have no idea how this works lmao.
I think Hero made a huge mistake by showing the bluff to the whole table. "Good fold....I turned a flush draw." Otherwise played great. I wonder if he would have called 70-75% pot bet OTR.
Imagine having an opponent who 4 bets J8 suited then checks a good flop texture where he actually has a piece of the board and then folds two pair he hit on the turn because a backdoor flush came in. Wowwwwww. And caller said this guy was a "pro" player. Lmao
That's my new ZV-E10 camera. Got it finally set up! Also make sure you stick around for the NYC private game discussion starting at 16:10.
Those home games in LA u spoke of sound atrocious...reminds me of some road games Doyle Brunson wrote about in his book! He not only had to worry about the lw busting games but also crooked games and robbers.
I've been a big part of home games, I've helped run games but mostly dealt in them. U learn quick who to trust and who not to trust. It often sucked that the weakest players with big rolls always played in the worse locales...making u wonder why they went there and didn't come to our games that were ran honest. Also, nothing messes up a home game more than having people on the books.
If Mike owes 500 to our game he won't come next week because he'll have to pay that before he play (usually), so he ends up going across town to play because he don't owe them, making u lose players. Sucks. Best thing is to run it with no credit. Plus the house man that allows folks on the books has to cover the losses out of his pocket.
Nice video on this one. Thanks for the great videos! Can't speak for the camera...I can't tell a difference between what's good and what's bad! 😂
Thanks for the spoilers ,
Fun hand - thanks for having me, Bart!
What a stupid fold. If I was the villain, this is how this would’ve went down: you make the bet and before your chips are in I’ve already flicked in one chip and said call.
I am going to be in Long Island city this weekend. I would love to play in the game like this.
@@TheTree1 bro you’re so cool.
The tree would get chopped down in this game.
@@joshmullins4849 lol
Also this isn’t an underbluffed line at all. When you down bet or check back flop after a 3 or 4 bet pre it is one of the most overbluffed lines
Some clarification on what the "rock" is.
The rock is basically a randomized straddle. It's generally put into the first pot of the first shuffle. The winner of the first pot gets the "rock". The Rock is worth whatever amount the house/floor deems it to be - usually 10, 15, 20, 25 etc. The player that has the rock must put it out when they are either UTG, or on the BTN and it is treated as if a player was actually straddling to that amount. When the rock is in play, the winner of the hand will collect the pot and the rock as well and now must use it for their UTG or BTN straddle.
Good explanation. I have played in private/underground NYC games myself that utilized the rock. I’m actually surprised not many people in other areas of the country have never heard of the rock before.
So on a hand when the rock is in play, can a different player still straddle? What would happen if the player with the rock is UTG and button wants to straddle, and vice versa?
@@Tomatolover120 the rock has first precedence(UTG or button) when it comes to straddles
Correct. Rock must be used first, players can restraddle/double straddle after the rock if they like, but the rock supersedes any optional straddle
Did he say the villain is a pro? Who 4bet j8, got everything he wanted then just folded? This sounds weird.
Too many holes in this story... Does not hold any water.
This game sounds wild. Caller's rationale sounds spot on all the way through. I started the hand thinking I would probably fold the weakest suited Aces to the cold 4bet, but after the reveal I see why the caller wouldn't do that in this game! Cracking call/discussion.
Good comments from chat. All in on river with this play. Villian would have thought about it less. Hero extra polarized with not going all in and threw Villan off. When I do this, 90% of the time I get looked up
Was there ever a doubt the caller is going to bluff someone off a hand? I love the callers that you know will win the hand, in dramatic fashion, within the first 60 seconds of the call.
Some people just need to flex. NY home gaym :)
oh FFS shut up
😂
I would surmise that it’s easier to call with J8because of the situation you mentioned about blocking sets and adjusting towards the end. If he has aces with Ace of hearts that would skew the hero towards having more of the sets and two pairs on the board.
nah better to have Ah,blocks a ton of flushes.88 may not always 3bet pre
@@Gos1234567 Having the Ah blocks the most obvious bluff tho,which is having the Ah high card.
What were the live tells? (When they fold you win)??
Bart dropping "sus" is great
How does villain not raise the turn on a two flush draw heavy board. KX never folding to raise there. Please bring fish to my local game please and thank you
How villain doesn't snap with his exact hand is an absolute mystery to me!
right? in my opinion, if you got backdoor hearted then so be it. 2 pair is going to beat most things here .Wonder what villain thought hero had before he showed, had to think he had hearts I guess
I wrote a very similar comment. I can't imagine folding AJ here, much less jacks up. The flop was checked. "Hero" can have any two.
how do you 4bet J8s then fold 2pair lmao this villain is truly balanced by randomness
for sure!
Something smells in this story. And V is a pro!?!? 😜🤣🐗🐔
Bart loved this guy! Haha
It's not consistent with theory to bet queens on this board. Solvers protect their checking range with pairs immediately below top pair.
I'm in NYC and I've played at some of these private games. I do it for fun, but since I have a car I'm much happier playing 2/5 at Parx or Wind Creek(he forgot this one, a little closer than Parx and only like $15 in tolls vs $30+ for Parx). I honestly just don't have the bankroll to handle the swings. As the caller said, these games play huge, there's no way to play with just 1k or less without massive variance and just shoving pre a lot of the time. Still, a surprisingly robust scene for games that rake $20+/hand.
I agree. Really liked Wind Creek, less than 2 hours from ny or the Bronx. More average players.
Harry is this the game in Manhattan that advertises on Google Maps? I played a few times and it was amazing even with the rake.
@@sQuaTsiFieD someone advertises on Google maps and it doesn't get busted by the police or robbed? That's wild
There's a lot of them upstate now, but AC is probably still closer. I know they have one in Amsterdam which is about 3 hours from the city.Turning Stone is about 5 hours from the city, their poker room isn't terrible.
Apples and Watermelons, but I played in a game in east bay (SF) where there were 2-3 [uniformed] dealers playing at my table the whole time...they tended to be VERY splashy and pushing around the $1/$2 table, then they always tipped like $12/hand.
I don't want to bad mouth the place because it may have only happened that night when they were struggling to keep 2 tables going, but it didn't feel "right" to me at the time.
Bartenders over tip bartenders, dealers over tip dealers. Probably nothing, but stay frosty.
2:15 The rock we're talking about is not part of what we're going to talk about. The rock is part of the game that we're not going to talk about! Long live the rock!!
Watching this has made me wonder if there isnt something to the idea of a game format where multiple pros collaborate and make joint decisions on hands. Put 3 groups of pros side by side by side, and watch as they play heads up against the same hand/runout. See which team makes the better decisions in the long term, and whether their frequency of correct calls makes them more profitable than the other teams of pros vs a pro that just plays individually
Have had that same thought. Would be awesome!
Shouldn't villain bet or check-raise the turn if he's worried about the flush or any other holding of the hero? He does have a strong hand there, even for a rock.
There's games all over the city and Long Island.Where thirty years behind NJ and CT with no real casinos
I think in some places the rock is also called a free straddle button or free straddle puck
Puck? This isnt Canada, bro
I noticed that Big Bets on the Turn and River are more likely to be perceived and be a Bluff compared to smaller Value Bets. I started Bluffing with smaller bets and was Shocked when they got threw at a high rate.
The same exact reason to balance value bets with large sizings/overbets that look bluffy. Pretty commonplace when deep.
How can you fold this in a home game where j8 is part of the general 4betting range. Would never fold
Has anyone done the math on how many bb/100 you need to be beating the game for to break even per 1$ of rake. It would be interesting to see an educated breakdown of it for 1/2, 2/5 and 5/10.
I’ll take a stab... assuming 25 hands per hour, each player’s share of the rake is $2.77 per hour per dollar of rake taken each hand ($1 times 25 hands divided by 9 players).
From there you have to make some assumptions on the average pot size to get more detailed. Assuming it’s $5 max rake and the average pot is raked $3, each player’s share is $8.31 an hour (2.77x3). So you’d have to win roughly 1.5bb an hour at 2/5 or 4bb an hour at 1/2 JUST to break even from the rake.
Also you can multiply the bb/hour by 4 to get the required bb/100 win rate (again assuming 25 hands an hour).
TY, I’ve tried to do this a few times in my head but I needed to see it written out to see the right formula for it. You the man.
He 4-bet with J8s? That is wild.
Thanks for all the vids Bart
The bluff was great, but it seems to me villain checked back the flop for pot control. I do not think leading the turn is going to get him off of anything ever, and this bluff is so played specific It's pretty high risk. I like it, just make sure you know your opponent can fold.
That was pretty much the dynamic of the hand : Villain was a (over-) thinking and exploitative ( against the general field) player, leveling himself by not expecting a significant amount of bluffs. - As Hero really "has to" understand the risk that Villain is supposed to call down quite lightly, after his flop check. 😉 .
I never cease to be amazed by the hands you can get to fold in live poker with a 3 barrel bluff when you barrel the river.
Only two barrels!
@@hoopaholik91 True! I stand corrected!
Hmmm… I’m always by what they call by when I 3 barrel off…
I did not understand how "the rock" worked.
I'd fold pre against a cold 4bet pre. But I liked how hero played it postflop.
I live in NYC & would love to play but the rake and security concerns have kept me out. I can't imagine walking out of some random apartment building in Brooklyn at 3 AM with $10K cash in my pocket....
Good one. Thanks 🤙🤙
The problem with NYC home games is its 10% rake ALL the way up
So, what are _two most important secrets_ ?
Is the rake in these home/private games higher or lower than card rooms?
Way higher, the big PLO games take 300 per hand.
@@jamiealexander7065 Is that because they are basically illegal?
@@stepbackandthink yeah, and they're all scumbags.
Is it a crazy question to ask why the villain is 4 betting with J8?
I got offered to play in NYC a home game 1\3 1000$ cap with a 10%rake UpTo 25$ does it make sense to play this game?
That's an insane amount.
No. My casino is 1/3 with a 10% up to 7. But bet sizes are increments of 5, so its basically a 2/5. Which makes rake pretty good for a 2/5.
There are nyc 5/5 games and above
I 100% agree that the pot-sized bet looks more like a possible bluff. Just bet $600 like it's pure value with the nuts.
Agreed. If the caller has a flush, he's never betting pot. You're supposed to try and get value from QQ/TT/AJ
By your logic, you should be betting pot with a flush.
@@shexteriors9510 come to think of it every time I call an overbet they have it 😂
But do you bet 600$ with a bluff then?If not then you are way unbalanced and easy to read
You can tell a fish when they act sooo cool about getting their bluff through
WTf??? so a pro would get all excited?
@@Gos1234567 any good player with two pair in that spot is calling. Caller got duper delight like he made some incredible bluff
@@stephpom5373 expect on the call with Bart when the villian claimed 2 pair, he was expecting the call to put him out of his misery. The bluff shouldn't have worked against 2P and he wasn't trying to get that to fold..
poker genius just learning about the rock just goes to show that you're nevr too old to learn :)
Was playing a 5/5 plo game yesterday and there was five $2 chips taped together, was that the rock? Winner of the last pot has it each time I have no idea how this works lmao.
It all goes back to my old saying, "If your gonna induce a bluff, you can't be too scared to you know like actually call the bluff."
Anything else would be all loosey goosey
Translate that into English, pls.
@@pot_kivach160 are you eating a sandwich?
@@sean3533 you seem someone stolen your sandwich. Wasn't me, I swear.
@@pot_kivach160 😅😂
You might wanna reevaluate that guy being a pro
I think Hero made a huge mistake by showing the bluff to the whole table. "Good fold....I turned a flush draw." Otherwise played great. I wonder if he would have called 70-75% pot bet OTR.
Actually played a hand with him later on where I flipped quads and overbet the river and got paid. #balance
What am I missing here? Why on god's green earth would BTN fold J8 in this game (based on how Hero described it)?? Snap call. Fist pump.
The villain 4bets guys
😂
I wonder how the villain reacts to a revealed 3 of clubs on the river when he asks
Villain in there with J8d surprised me given the 4! Pre-flop. Anyone else?
No its standard
It's standard.
Standard
How does he fold J8 omg
Bartholomue
lol GTOWizard has the flop as a 99.9% bet by villain!
With entire range right? Thats why I said it was off the rails immediately.
V used the other 0.01%. 🐗
I can't believe he folded kings preflop!
Either Bart tryna pullup or he a fed . . . .
bro 4bet j8 suited
Bro, A3 calling 4bet OOP!?!? 😭
@@pot_kivach160bro said fuck GTO
Who wants to play 1/2 in nyc? Lmk
Imagine having an opponent who 4 bets J8 suited then checks a good flop texture where he actually has a piece of the board and then folds two pair he hit on the turn because a backdoor flush came in. Wowwwwww.
And caller said this guy was a "pro" player. Lmao
Why even call this hand? It's a stupid bluff that got rewarded because other player is stupid too, to think it was a good move???
Not a chance he folds KJ there.