With the villain checking river and tank calling seems like almost guaranteed if hero bets $800 he would have just called. He was obviously worried about being beat already and way too many hands that beat trips by the river. So I like the $4500 bet. He got the call which seemed like villain didn’t even want to make. All in could have made him fold especially if he didn’t have rebuy money on him.
It def could have been the best play in that situation. He may have folded to an all in and almost certainly would have just called a block bet. Hero may have got the max, but I have learned not going big enough is a mistake you don't want to make, it's very costly.
“Way too many hands beat trips by the river” what? Literally 3 hands beat trip 8 by the river on a early position raise, 9s full (which is hard given the betting and it comming on river). And 6s and 4s full which both are subject on where EP would actually raise these hands. The idea that “trip 8 with ace kicker is beaten by 84o because it’s a boat” is only a theoretical ranking. Hero never has 84.
Pretty sure the sizing is bad and we lost 2k for absolutely no reason. It's the kind of spot where people are extremely inelastic to the sizing nuances and usually the calling ranges vs b120 and b180 are going to be the exact same.
Can we be mindful of spoiling hole cards in the first line or two of our comments? I know people don't necessarily ask to get thumbed-up but it's really hard not to see the top comment on mobile before going fullscreen.
I agree so much. Maybe Bart can pin a message or something to keep it from happening but I just came here to comment the same thing bc I saw the A8 comment. Ruined the video kinda
Also to note that that there is only one suited combo 98 that the villain could have here. I think the play here depends on the opponent you are playing against. Vs a weak opponent, I like a large bet, against a quality opponent I think I like a small bet size to try and induce a raise. We’re basically only losing to combo on this runout. I think our hero played the hand fine, and Bart is being slightly results oriented with his analysis. Arriving at the river with an SPR of 2 this deep stacked is probably one the most intellectually difficult spots in Hold’em
I think jamming against either player type is fine. A quality opponent should recognize that we are never thinly value betting the river for a small sizing (assuming both players know the other is decent) and that we aren't arriving here with not nutted hearts that blast the river. And if they think we're bluffing they can click back to $3K and comfortably fold to a jam.
I think not 3 betting the flop is a significant error, so easy for them to have 8x as played (many are playing 98s, 87s, A8s, maybe T8s or J8s) and 8x almost never folding a clean runout. If we click it up to $1400 most aren't folding a flush draw unless they put us exactly on our exact hand. Sure, maybe they fold KQhh on the flop once in a while, but it's not easy to get stacks in against those hands in the first place.
Villain 3 bet him. Hero would have 4 bet him. How many people are going to call off 4 bet on paired board looking for straight or flush? Lets say they call off and now there is 3k in pot. What now? Call pot size bet with no hand and have 1/3 spr left going to river trying to hit a draw? A mega fish might do this but majority players won't, they'll fold turn after missing, even if they get to turn. If you got a boat and villain on a dead draw trying to push you out, have to let them hang themselves. He almost got another 6k of villains after flop with hardly anything behind. This is almost best case scenario. If you raise flop and scare away draws that are already dead its an absolute disaster. This is pretty much the only hand that calls him off that he beats and how many straight and flushes out there? There is nothing to complain about.
Against winning players you will get destroyed bet-3b’ing flop as the preflop raiser from UTG+1 because villain’s 8x/86/66 advantage is massive. I.e. as the hero, bet-3b’ing with AA/KK/QQ is so suicidal that when you do it, it’s always the nuts and any decent villain can easily fold off Axhh, 57hh, and maybe even weak 8x. That said, against someone VPIP’ing A8o from the SB in a 3-blind structure… it is the move.
I play a fair bit of deep stack at low stakes. ($1/$2 with $1000+ stacks, which is awesome here in Texas.) This is exactly why I don't every play A9off - A2off from out of position.
He flatted an UTG open from the SB. He shouldn't ever have off suit A8. The fact that he did just means he's terrible at poker and a lot of this analysis ends up being kind of pointless because getting max value from idiots is different than getting it from thinking players.
@@Jermo484 The reason why poker is still profitable is not only because of idiots playing A8 off in such a manner/position, it’s also because there are many people who identify with your comment. If you play/played enough poker, those cards are absolutely in not only amateurs ranges but even for regs who’re trying to figure out exploitative strategies. I’ve been saying this for years now, that the biggest obstacle for a solid player to overcome is projection.
@@datsumcrzysht um, that's not my point? My point is if he can have A8o there, he's terrible to the point that almost none of this analysis is relevant. Also, stop trying to put people on one specific hand.
@@Jermo484 I can agree that the analysis will become far less applicable when dealing with people who do not follow currently acceptable optimal strategies. But I didn’t feel that way with this call only bc the Hero stated that Villain was likely not a good player, and thus the range widened to include hands like A8. Additionally I reread my initial post and realized that it was maybe worded poorly. I wasn’t suggesting that the range only included 1 hand but only that if an inexperienced or fishy player had an A8, this is likely how he would play it. I see similar garbage all the time in 2/5 and 10/10 games. Sometimes it’s from LAG regs who’re apparently trying to take the idea of being balanced to the nth degree.
This is a very interesting river discussion. He made more money than I would have done (I'd have gone a lot smaller, worried that 8x - particularly 87 - could fold to larger sizing). I was expecting the river check to be 8x a lot of the time; a lot of people aren't going to think too much about Hero's range of overpairs, they're going to see a large and rapidly expanding pot with a strong but non-nut hand and try to pot control. Nicely played.
River thoughts (before reveal). I'm either betting something like 2-3K range to induce a raise (either as bluff or value from Villain perspective) OR I'm all in, if I thought he had an 8. If he has 8-9, he gets my money and I'm okay with that. Seeing the result, I think the V probably calls an All-In, and doesn't raise the river after any bet of any size. Casual players generally aren't nearly as value aggressive as some pros, and will try to protect their stack with calls instead of raising the 2-3K bet size on the river. All-in appears "bluffy" for missed draws, and may actually be an easier call than the hero's bet sizing on the river. I think it is important to review hands like this, because you can see the thought processes through better, and adjust playing style as needed.
you have too know who the opponent is. Against a strong winning player, don't bother betting anything. That's a no-win/lose situation. Against a weak, CS, or even average player, yes, go for it. He will pay you off with his triple 8 hand (which is high likely that he has). Know your road, know your load!
If you bet 2-3K on the river that’s way too much to “induce a raise”. No one is going to interpret that as weakness. If I bet 3K and got raised I’d assume I was up against 89 or 88.
That seems pretty standard. If the hero goes broke 425 BB effective in a single raised pot with an overpair against a SB range on this board, he needs to retire from poker, especially when another person saw the flop, too. Any competent player is tossing an overpair into the muck on the river if villain makes any reasonable bet and isn't an absolute lunatic. Granted the SB is still terrible, given the flat pre, but AA is just a bluff catcher in a pot this massive on the river.
Because betting river is more like a no-win/lose. So no betting here. Check is in order. I am surprised that he called that river bet?? I would not; unless I have very strong reading of him bluffing (which is far from being the case here). . Reason: when UTG1 called flop x/r and called turn C-bet, then he must not been afraid of paired board that is a middle of SB range. And, my friend, a good hand reader would easily come to a conclusion that: High pair (AA/KK/QQ/JJ) would NOT call any large river bet. Hoping this helps.
@@pot_kivach160 this is so flawed. If you somehow arrive at the river with trips/top kicker on a no flush/no straight board and see no value in betting, you clearly messed up on a previous street. Your default line with trips in that spot is c/fold, really?
The risk of A8 just calling a small bet outweighs the times a guy like that will bluff off draws. Since an all in works that’s probably the move on the river. Does raise flop get a guy to fold draws because the board is paired? Probably not a guy like that.
Stopped 19:45. I would just jam. If foe is on a missed draw, you won't get a call no matter what, an over bet may look like you have a missed draw, especially a missed combo draw. An 8 in foe's hands is not half as likely to call a pot sized bet as a twice pot sized bet, so overtime you make more money by betting larger.
Pre-reveal: coming from a PLO background I had the same thought on the river re: inducing with a $750 bet. Post-reveal: He would have just flatted that $750 and we would have lost a lot of value.
Against a typical Vegas regular, if he jams into you on a 9,7, A it’s a fold. Not check-jam but open jams into you. I don’t think they are even jamming 4s.
Caller screwed up multiple spots here. 1st he 100% should have 3 bet the flop. Villain has way to many draws that might call a flop raise but shut down if the turn bricks. Plus it keeps hero with the betting lead to make his hand look a lot more like over pairs. Then the river size was horrible. Either bet small to induce a raise from villain, or jam to target 8X hands. I'd prefer the smaller bet. I probably would have bet about 1k or a little under. So the caller ended up getting like 80% value when he could have gotten 100%.
Hero bet the flop and villain 3 bet him. Hero would have to 4 bet him. Does villain call 4 bet with paired board to hit a draw that might be dead or get counterfeit even if he hits? If hero has an overpair and stack offs on a paired board with an 8 on board vs two blinds its super fishy. 4 betting flop likely pushes out most draws or get a fold on turn anyway on hands that are already dead. There are way more flush draws and straight draws than than 8x, especially A8. It'd be a disaster getting draw hands to fold that are already dead and blasting away into you.
@KaliAndy2 the fishy play was not raising the villain on the flop. They were both super deep. So implied odds will get calls from a lot of draws. Simply because the flop 3 bet screams "I have an over pair and I'm afraid of the draws." So it's going to get a deep stacked player on a draw to call more often than not chasing the implied odds. And if villain is playing 8x they are never folding here. The 3 bet is the correct play.
@@wesch6354 you got small blind and big blind in the pot. 8 smacks their range. Being super deep and stacking off for nearly 1000 big blinds in this spot with over pair is ridiculous.
Not sure what villain has to be angry about - unless he's angry at himself for vpip'ing. He was never ahead. The only concern with the big bet is I think there's a good chance that T8 and 87 fold.
I think getting paid $4500 on the river was somewhere between a great result, and a lucky result. Villain may have folded to an all in, which by comparison, would have been a $4500 disaster. I'm not sure what I would have bet on the river myself, probably $2000, but I never get to that awkward a spot. I raise the turn somewhere from minraise to 2.5x. Not only does it avoid a nasty river SPR, it can really make villain go into a leveling death spiral trying to figure out whether such a small raise is super, super strong, vs a raise to "see where I'm at", a cheap way of trying to buy the pot with a raise/fold strategy. Once they go down that leveling rabbit hole, the pot odds convince them that they can't fold. And if they can't fold on turn, they can't fold on river either. When they realize that, they may shove turn. A small turn raise in this spot, also has other ways of messing with villain's head. There are many, many ways to make a min raise! Why use the plain vanilla one that is perfectly clear that you intended it like a computer-chosen amount? Some might call it angling, so I rarely do it, and usually only against a reg/pro I know, but it's a great time to "make a mistake" or "see his bet amount wrong" if it was just chips put out, rather than announced. Totally depends upon how the bet was made, but if the $1200 could plausibly be viewed as $700, you could announce "raise" and toss out $1750 (or $700 for that matter, "expecting" to still be able to choose the amount of the raise) then let the games begin. ;-) Everyone knows the raise will be to $2400, but you can say you saw $700 and were 2.5x'ing him or pondering the raise amount, so you want it to be $X amount (which will never happen). Because it's clearly actually a raise to $2400, the argument that it's angling, is weak, it is actually more talk play. Yet it introduces doubt in villain's mind about whether you intended $2400, whether you're incompetent/crazy/upset etc. The more things he thinks about, the more sure you are to get called or raised. Live poker is not just a computer screen showing you what the bet is. A key hand can become your choice of an engineering exam, vs a drama, vs a mystery, vs a psychology exam, vs a clown show. I am rarely the guy to turn it into a clown show, but anyone who NEVER does that, is getting free rolled by everyone else who (intentionally or unintentionally) does.
Hero should've 4bet the flop. Villain really is only afraid of what hero has. If i was villain, I'd have to call a 4bet. Hero might be overplaying overpair or A6, could have same hand A8, or worse 8 like 78s,89s, T8s, maybe even a junky K8s. Probably wouldn't fear a one gapper 86s with the heros preflop raise from MP. From heros perspective, villain has all of above range hands, minus the big overpairs. Couldve woken up with 86 or 88, but you just have to accept that happens. Hero risked getting counterfeited with an ace on t or r, or runner runner double paired board higher than 6. In short, if hero is scared of getting stacked when they flop a boat then they're playing in too big of a game for their bankroll and comfort/confidence level.
All in is very strong, maybe too strong. Few are jamming a worse 8 there. Wanting to look bluffy is the tipping point to call. $4,500 is a really nice bet. It's nonsensical looking in the action. Why wouldn't you just shove? Yea, exactly, which is why $4,500 was the right answer. I like maybe a lone 5k chip too. I think he might find a fold with all in. Some people have call reflexes, but nowadays it might trigger more thought about ranges and polarization. All the things you don't want them to think about.
I would have reraised him on the flop there. He is going to think you have an over pair more often than not and put it all in for you on the flop. I don't see weak players check raising you on a paired board too often with just a flush draw. Not 3 betting the flop will allow any heart to kill his action if the guy has an 8 as well.
I agree. Betting big and leaving 2-3 k behind looks bit bluffy. All in starts to look sketchy. Might have to call off if player bluffs a ton but otherwise probably have to lean fold. Honestly this looks like best case scenario. If push flop with 4 bet probably scare away all draws with paired board. Had villain on one hand that may stack off but not guaranteed and still got most of the money. I'd be happy with the 12k+ pot and not worry about the 2k or whatever left. If play different likely scare away all draw hands that are already dead and get no value at all.
We seem to be thinking about this hand from the viewpoint of; villain is a poor player. Now we do have some evidence for this in that he played A8 off from SB against a UTG open. On the other hand; he did check the river here & then obviously tanked a long time before calling. If this villain is an idiot, I'm down for whatever. 3 bet the flop, jam turn or river. Just go wild. But if this villain has some skills... I think hero played this pretty much perfectly. What hand is hero really 3 betting when SB check raises? Hero C-bet 60% pot 3 handed. Villain raised from 120 to 520, which is over 4X. Is hero honestly coming back over the top with AA? Isn't that the best hand hero can have outside of his actual hand? I suppose hero could have A8s here. I just think 3 betting the flop here narrows hero's range to 8X & 66 & how much 8X is hero opening from UTG? From villains perspective I'm just having a hard time putting hero on AA the way this played. Also; I'd point out that villain did wind up having the exact hand we want him to have in A8, giving him the best trips possible.
This all goes back to the small blind electing to call an early-position raiser - one who has his big stack covered - with A8o, and also with a big blind that's been raising like mad. Once he saw a flop he was going to be cooked.
It really should be suited, and there's only one combo of that. If villain is calling from the small blind with 98o and smacks the river like that, he's getting all my money.
With the villain checking river and tank calling seems like almost guaranteed if hero bets $800 he would have just called. He was obviously worried about being beat already and way too many hands that beat trips by the river. So I like the $4500 bet. He got the call which seemed like villain didn’t even want to make. All in could have made him fold especially if he didn’t have rebuy money on him.
It def could have been the best play in that situation. He may have folded to an all in and almost certainly would have just called a block bet. Hero may have got the max, but I have learned not going big enough is a mistake you don't want to make, it's very costly.
On the other hand, V could have seen an all-in as much more bluffy, leading to a snap call
I agree, V probably just calls small bet and tank folds to all in, caller got max value on river
“Way too many hands beat trips by the river” what? Literally 3 hands beat trip 8 by the river on a early position raise, 9s full (which is hard given the betting and it comming on river). And 6s and 4s full which both are subject on where EP would actually raise these hands.
The idea that “trip 8 with ace kicker is beaten by 84o because it’s a boat” is only a theoretical ranking. Hero never has 84.
Pretty sure the sizing is bad and we lost 2k for absolutely no reason. It's the kind of spot where people are extremely inelastic to the sizing nuances and usually the calling ranges vs b120 and b180 are going to be the exact same.
Can we be mindful of spoiling hole cards in the first line or two of our comments? I know people don't necessarily ask to get thumbed-up but it's really hard not to see the top comment on mobile before going fullscreen.
I agree so much. Maybe Bart can pin a message or something to keep it from happening but I just came here to comment the same thing bc I saw the A8 comment. Ruined the video kinda
Maybe it was a guess in the comments before revealing.
I just listen to the video. I don't use the visual until I'm ready to read the comments.
No
Yes… please 🙏 🙏🙏
This guy gives off: Yes, I cover the table vibes
Also to note that that there is only one suited combo 98 that the villain could have here. I think the play here depends on the opponent you are playing against. Vs a weak opponent, I like a large bet, against a quality opponent I think I like a small bet size to try and induce a raise. We’re basically only losing to combo on this runout. I think our hero played the hand fine, and Bart is being slightly results oriented with his analysis. Arriving at the river with an SPR of 2 this deep stacked is probably one the most intellectually difficult spots in Hold’em
I think jamming against either player type is fine. A quality opponent should recognize that we are never thinly value betting the river for a small sizing (assuming both players know the other is decent) and that we aren't arriving here with not nutted hearts that blast the river. And if they think we're bluffing they can click back to $3K and comfortably fold to a jam.
💯 agree
I think not 3 betting the flop is a significant error, so easy for them to have 8x as played (many are playing 98s, 87s, A8s, maybe T8s or J8s) and 8x almost never folding a clean runout. If we click it up to $1400 most aren't folding a flush draw unless they put us exactly on our exact hand. Sure, maybe they fold KQhh on the flop once in a while, but it's not easy to get stacks in against those hands in the first place.
Villain 3 bet him. Hero would have 4 bet him. How many people are going to call off 4 bet on paired board looking for straight or flush? Lets say they call off and now there is 3k in pot. What now? Call pot size bet with no hand and have 1/3 spr left going to river trying to hit a draw? A mega fish might do this but majority players won't, they'll fold turn after missing, even if they get to turn. If you got a boat and villain on a dead draw trying to push you out, have to let them hang themselves. He almost got another 6k of villains after flop with hardly anything behind. This is almost best case scenario. If you raise flop and scare away draws that are already dead its an absolute disaster. This is pretty much the only hand that calls him off that he beats and how many straight and flushes out there? There is nothing to complain about.
Against winning players you will get destroyed bet-3b’ing flop as the preflop raiser from UTG+1 because villain’s 8x/86/66 advantage is massive. I.e. as the hero, bet-3b’ing with AA/KK/QQ is so suicidal that when you do it, it’s always the nuts and any decent villain can easily fold off Axhh, 57hh, and maybe even weak 8x. That said, against someone VPIP’ing A8o from the SB in a 3-blind structure… it is the move.
This is very results oriented thinking. You always call here in position
@@scottyrabbit why do you always call? What hands do you expect a likely rec to x/r fold here?
the last words that will come out of barts mouth will be "I have the highest win rate at Hollywood Parks" 🤣🤣
I play a fair bit of deep stack at low stakes. ($1/$2 with $1000+ stacks, which is awesome here in Texas.) This is exactly why I don't every play A9off - A2off from out of position.
I might be a little bummed but overall I'm good with result...
V played it exactly like an A8, and one of the most likely ranged hands.
He flatted an UTG open from the SB. He shouldn't ever have off suit A8. The fact that he did just means he's terrible at poker and a lot of this analysis ends up being kind of pointless because getting max value from idiots is different than getting it from thinking players.
So maybe hero got the max from him.
@@Jermo484
The reason why poker is still profitable is not only because of idiots playing A8 off in such a manner/position, it’s also because there are many people who identify with your comment. If you play/played enough poker, those cards are absolutely in not only amateurs ranges but even for regs who’re trying to figure out exploitative strategies. I’ve been saying this for years now, that the biggest obstacle for a solid player to overcome is projection.
@@datsumcrzysht um, that's not my point? My point is if he can have A8o there, he's terrible to the point that almost none of this analysis is relevant. Also, stop trying to put people on one specific hand.
@@Jermo484
I can agree that the analysis will become far less applicable when dealing with people who do not follow currently acceptable optimal strategies. But I didn’t feel that way with this call only bc the Hero stated that Villain was likely not a good player, and thus the range widened to include hands like A8.
Additionally I reread my initial post and realized that it was maybe worded poorly. I wasn’t suggesting that the range only included 1 hand but only that if an inexperienced or fishy player had an A8, this is likely how he would play it. I see similar garbage all the time in 2/5 and 10/10 games. Sometimes it’s from LAG regs who’re apparently trying to take the idea of being balanced to the nth degree.
This is a very interesting river discussion. He made more money than I would have done (I'd have gone a lot smaller, worried that 8x - particularly 87 - could fold to larger sizing). I was expecting the river check to be 8x a lot of the time; a lot of people aren't going to think too much about Hero's range of overpairs, they're going to see a large and rapidly expanding pot with a strong but non-nut hand and try to pot control. Nicely played.
River thoughts (before reveal). I'm either betting something like 2-3K range to induce a raise (either as bluff or value from Villain perspective) OR I'm all in, if I thought he had an 8. If he has 8-9, he gets my money and I'm okay with that.
Seeing the result, I think the V probably calls an All-In, and doesn't raise the river after any bet of any size. Casual players generally aren't nearly as value aggressive as some pros, and will try to protect their stack with calls instead of raising the 2-3K bet size on the river. All-in appears "bluffy" for missed draws, and may actually be an easier call than the hero's bet sizing on the river.
I think it is important to review hands like this, because you can see the thought processes through better, and adjust playing style as needed.
you have too know who the opponent is. Against a strong winning player, don't bother betting anything. That's a no-win/lose situation. Against a weak, CS, or even average player, yes, go for it. He will pay you off with his triple 8 hand (which is high likely that he has). Know your road, know your load!
If you bet 2-3K on the river that’s way too much to “induce a raise”. No one is going to interpret that as weakness.
If I bet 3K and got raised I’d assume I was up against 89 or 88.
@@MichaelTilton absolutely wild to think you can bet 3K and “induce” someone to x/jam bluff in this spot.
@@natejohnson3638 LOL. Try it. Pros won't fall for it
Once he checks river you are never losing as played
Not sure why villain is checking a8 on the river, if hero had aces or kings he would snap check back and villain would be sick to his stomach
Because villain is a fish.
Fwiw, I agree with you, terrible check.
I think hero played it fine though, Bart is results oriented here imo
That seems pretty standard. If the hero goes broke 425 BB effective in a single raised pot with an overpair against a SB range on this board, he needs to retire from poker, especially when another person saw the flop, too. Any competent player is tossing an overpair into the muck on the river if villain makes any reasonable bet and isn't an absolute lunatic. Granted the SB is still terrible, given the flat pre, but AA is just a bluff catcher in a pot this massive on the river.
Because betting river is more like a no-win/lose. So no betting here. Check is in order. I am surprised that he called that river bet?? I would not; unless I have very strong reading of him bluffing (which is far from being the case here).
.
Reason: when UTG1 called flop x/r and called turn C-bet, then he must not been afraid of paired board that is a middle of SB range. And, my friend, a good hand reader would easily come to a conclusion that: High pair (AA/KK/QQ/JJ) would NOT call any large river bet. Hoping this helps.
@@Jermo484 👌
@@pot_kivach160 this is so flawed.
If you somehow arrive at the river with trips/top kicker on a no flush/no straight board and see no value in betting, you clearly messed up on a previous street.
Your default line with trips in that spot is c/fold, really?
The risk of A8 just calling a small bet outweighs the times a guy like that will bluff off draws. Since an all in works that’s probably the move on the river.
Does raise flop get a guy to fold draws because the board is paired? Probably not a guy like that.
not sure if it matters at all but can i say were always checking back river with overpairs?
Stopped 19:45. I would just jam. If foe is on a missed draw, you won't get a call no matter what, an over bet may look like you have a missed draw, especially a missed combo draw. An 8 in foe's hands is not half as likely to call a pot sized bet as a twice pot sized bet, so overtime you make more money by betting larger.
The villain has been invited to my home game.
Pre-reveal: coming from a PLO background I had the same thought on the river re: inducing with a $750 bet.
Post-reveal: He would have just flatted that $750 and we would have lost a lot of value.
what accounts for the difference in your guess as to what villain would do?
@@EthanL-gb9ng Knowing the villains hand 😂
My mind went to 98 or more importantly 99. I check back the river, it’s a great trap with 99. This must be my leak, I’m never getting out of 2/3 😢
Being bummed about this result is a little wild..
The live chat is saying “bet fold” river??? 😂
I thought hero did very good. Sure all in was more polar and perhaps the better play
Against a typical Vegas regular, if he jams into you on a 9,7, A it’s a fold. Not check-jam but open jams into you. I don’t think they are even jamming 4s.
Well (almost) no one is checkraising the flop with 44
Caller screwed up multiple spots here. 1st he 100% should have 3 bet the flop. Villain has way to many draws that might call a flop raise but shut down if the turn bricks. Plus it keeps hero with the betting lead to make his hand look a lot more like over pairs. Then the river size was horrible. Either bet small to induce a raise from villain, or jam to target 8X hands. I'd prefer the smaller bet. I probably would have bet about 1k or a little under. So the caller ended up getting like 80% value when he could have gotten 100%.
Hero bet the flop and villain 3 bet him. Hero would have to 4 bet him. Does villain call 4 bet with paired board to hit a draw that might be dead or get counterfeit even if he hits? If hero has an overpair and stack offs on a paired board with an 8 on board vs two blinds its super fishy. 4 betting flop likely pushes out most draws or get a fold on turn anyway on hands that are already dead. There are way more flush draws and straight draws than than 8x, especially A8. It'd be a disaster getting draw hands to fold that are already dead and blasting away into you.
@KaliAndy2 no. Heros flop bet is bet 1. Villains raise is bet 2. So if hero re-raises it's a 3 bet.
@KaliAndy2 the fishy play was not raising the villain on the flop. They were both super deep. So implied odds will get calls from a lot of draws. Simply because the flop 3 bet screams "I have an over pair and I'm afraid of the draws." So it's going to get a deep stacked player on a draw to call more often than not chasing the implied odds. And if villain is playing 8x they are never folding here. The 3 bet is the correct play.
@@wesch6354 you got small blind and big blind in the pot. 8 smacks their range. Being super deep and stacking off for nearly 1000 big blinds in this spot with over pair is ridiculous.
@@KaliAndy2 exactly why you should 3 bet. Because they have an 8 in their range. You need to get value from those hands.
Not sure what villain has to be angry about - unless he's angry at himself for vpip'ing. He was never ahead. The only concern with the big bet is I think there's a good chance that T8 and 87 fold.
I think getting paid $4500 on the river was somewhere between a great result, and a lucky result. Villain may have folded to an all in, which by comparison, would have been a $4500 disaster. I'm not sure what I would have bet on the river myself, probably $2000, but I never get to that awkward a spot.
I raise the turn somewhere from minraise to 2.5x. Not only does it avoid a nasty river SPR, it can really make villain go into a leveling death spiral trying to figure out whether such a small raise is super, super strong, vs a raise to "see where I'm at", a cheap way of trying to buy the pot with a raise/fold strategy. Once they go down that leveling rabbit hole, the pot odds convince them that they can't fold. And if they can't fold on turn, they can't fold on river either. When they realize that, they may shove turn.
A small turn raise in this spot, also has other ways of messing with villain's head. There are many, many ways to make a min raise! Why use the plain vanilla one that is perfectly clear that you intended it like a computer-chosen amount?
Some might call it angling, so I rarely do it, and usually only against a reg/pro I know, but it's a great time to "make a mistake" or "see his bet amount wrong" if it was just chips put out, rather than announced. Totally depends upon how the bet was made, but if the $1200 could plausibly be viewed as $700, you could announce "raise" and toss out $1750 (or $700 for that matter, "expecting" to still be able to choose the amount of the raise) then let the games begin. ;-) Everyone knows the raise will be to $2400, but you can say you saw $700 and were 2.5x'ing him or pondering the raise amount, so you want it to be $X amount (which will never happen). Because it's clearly actually a raise to $2400, the argument that it's angling, is weak, it is actually more talk play. Yet it introduces doubt in villain's mind about whether you intended $2400, whether you're incompetent/crazy/upset etc. The more things he thinks about, the more sure you are to get called or raised. Live poker is not just a computer screen showing you what the bet is. A key hand can become your choice of an engineering exam, vs a drama, vs a mystery, vs a psychology exam, vs a clown show.
I am rarely the guy to turn it into a clown show, but anyone who NEVER does that, is getting free rolled by everyone else who (intentionally or unintentionally) does.
Yeh that’s an angle mate 😂
I think this hand was played perfectly by the hero
Hero should've 4bet the flop. Villain really is only afraid of what hero has. If i was villain, I'd have to call a 4bet. Hero might be overplaying overpair or A6, could have same hand A8, or worse 8 like 78s,89s, T8s, maybe even a junky K8s. Probably wouldn't fear a one gapper 86s with the heros preflop raise from MP.
From heros perspective, villain has all of above range hands, minus the big overpairs. Couldve woken up with 86 or 88, but you just have to accept that happens.
Hero risked getting counterfeited with an ace on t or r, or runner runner double paired board higher than 6.
In short, if hero is scared of getting stacked when they flop a boat then they're playing in too big of a game for their bankroll and comfort/confidence level.
All in is very strong, maybe too strong. Few are jamming a worse 8 there. Wanting to look bluffy is the tipping point to call. $4,500 is a really nice bet. It's nonsensical looking in the action. Why wouldn't you just shove? Yea, exactly, which is why $4,500 was the right answer. I like maybe a lone 5k chip too.
I think he might find a fold with all in. Some people have call reflexes, but nowadays it might trigger more thought about ranges and polarization. All the things you don't want them to think about.
The turn should have been raised?
I would have reraised him on the flop there. He is going to think you have an over pair more often than not and put it all in for you on the flop. I don't see weak players check raising you on a paired board too often with just a flush draw. Not 3 betting the flop will allow any heart to kill his action if the guy has an 8 as well.
I think 4500 was a great size I honestly think the shove makes villain fold
I agree. Betting big and leaving 2-3 k behind looks bit bluffy. All in starts to look sketchy. Might have to call off if player bluffs a ton but otherwise probably have to lean fold. Honestly this looks like best case scenario. If push flop with 4 bet probably scare away all draws with paired board. Had villain on one hand that may stack off but not guaranteed and still got most of the money. I'd be happy with the 12k+ pot and not worry about the 2k or whatever left. If play different likely scare away all draw hands that are already dead and get no value at all.
We seem to be thinking about this hand from the viewpoint of; villain is a poor player. Now we do have some evidence for this in that he played A8 off from SB against a UTG open. On the other hand; he did check the river here & then obviously tanked a long time before calling.
If this villain is an idiot, I'm down for whatever. 3 bet the flop, jam turn or river. Just go wild.
But if this villain has some skills... I think hero played this pretty much perfectly. What hand is hero really 3 betting when SB check raises? Hero C-bet 60% pot 3 handed. Villain raised from 120 to 520, which is over 4X. Is hero honestly coming back over the top with AA? Isn't that the best hand hero can have outside of his actual hand? I suppose hero could have A8s here. I just think 3 betting the flop here narrows hero's range to 8X & 66 & how much 8X is hero opening from UTG? From villains perspective I'm just having a hard time putting hero on AA the way this played. Also; I'd point out that villain did wind up having the exact hand we want him to have in A8, giving him the best trips possible.
And u ask urself “why am I even playing” was the direction u shoulda kept going
3bet the flop. SB will play face up with very aggro BB that has nut advantage on the flop.
Maybe nobody would ever believe it but you could bet small making it look like you’re trying to get value from a 9 or 6 representing Jj or QQ
Bet 1.2 and induce the bluff
This all goes back to the small blind electing to call an early-position raiser - one who has his big stack covered - with A8o, and also with a big blind that's been raising like mad. Once he saw a flop he was going to be cooked.
Bart has been aging faster now that hes a dad. 😮😅
Min raise the turn. Than I have less than a pot sized bet on the river.
you always commenting some dumb shit
He’s def not checking 99 or 89 on the river so I’m eliminating that
Why do caps make the games better/deter the crushers? Wouldn’t a crusher prefer to play in a softer game with a cap than an uncapped game with sharks?
Why cant we have a 1-2 game with a million $buy in.... Then we could spend days and days figuring out how to get all the money in...!?
I think he folds to all in maybe with the tank
wow why wouldnt u jam river? left 2k on table...if they callin 4k they are callin 6k imo
This is not necessarily true
9/8 is exactly the hand I put him on...
It really should be suited, and there's only one combo of that. If villain is calling from the small blind with 98o and smacks the river like that, he's getting all my money.
Why would villain check river with 89?
9c8c
@@C-Gan1970 the 8c is on the board
@@kennethchia4194 Sorry, my diabetic eyes