Magic's Most Hated Archetype Has A Psychological Impact?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ส.ค. 2024
- I wanted to take an aside to talk about Mill in Magic The Gathering and the future of the archetype in the Modern format!
#mtg #magicthegathering #banned #crazy #wow
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Other Links:
Milling About (WOTC Article - Mark Rosewater): magic.wizards.com/en/news/mak...
Mark Rosewater's Blogatog (Tumblr): markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...
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What deck do you don't want to play against at any circunstances?
A. Hogaak at its peak
B. Nadu solitaire game
C. The weak mill deck with 33% win rate
Most answers: C
I couldn't care less about win rate. I care about having an actual experience to become a better player. I'd choose the broken decks 100 times out of 100 over mill for the simple fact that mill is just boring and uninteractive.
It's for this same reason that I don't enjoy focused discard decks. When I've been depleted of cards, and the game turns into a top deck war for me, I couldn't care less if I draw the out every single time. It's taken the actual agency out of me being able to play the game. You get what you get and you don't pitch a fit. It's just fucking boring.
I'm all for the many different archetypes that the game offers. But at the same time, if it's just a one-sided experience, then it's only fun for that player. Even at a competitive level, for me personally at least, if I'm not having some type of fun, then I'm just not interested. That's what jobs are for. 😂
Okay, let's just look at this question in actual more depth. For Hogaak did you open your leyline of the Void? Congrats if you did, if you didn't you lose the game....I like playing mini games with my opening hand, that's very clearly fun and interactive. Up next, Nadu? Oh right if I just remove it they get to try again later, hope I can win faster than them.
If you think mill is more toxic or less fun than combo, burn or kill spell tribal then you are part the reason WotC gets away with turning a once awesome game into yugioh.
@@solcloudchaser4988 combo is fun, as is burn. I've never heard of kill spell tribal.
Combo is only a problem when it does shit like Twin or Pod. There isn't any real way to stop it, even though you can technically interact. Storm can be an issue here as well, but you can just ban the cards that would allow it to be oppressive.
As for burn, it isn't as braindead as people make it out to be. Yeah, it's pretty much just hit face and pass, but you also run out of gas pretty quickly. More importantly, you can interact with it, depending on the exact deck.
Mill just so happens to be in a color that gives card draw and counterspells as needed. Then it plays wonderfully designed "free" cards to strip your deck of an entire playset once a key card of yours ends up in the yard. Yeah it's all pretty much luck based, except for the fact that it isn't entirely, since the best cards are being run as 4 ofs. So you're very likely to hit something good. On the flip side, you can just as easily ramp your opponent into a Murktide.
I'm personally just a fan of as much luck and variance being taken out of the game as possible. I get that the variance makes the game so much fun, within reason, but when the cards start to play the game themselves, it just makes me not care.
@@Xoulrath_ I love how the combos from moderns golden age are the toxic ones to you XD. As someone who fought both of those decks frequently, I can tell you that there was nothing degenerate about either. They just had very few bad match ups and were nerfed because of that.
As an ex burn player, I will tell you that 80% of the games I played were win by turn 4 or just scoop cause theres no winning from there. It is absolutely a brain dead archetype with the exception of maybe legacy.
Mono black or Rackdos kill spell tribal is just a deck that plays something like 4 sheoldred with one rings 26 lands and the rest of the cards are kill spells. It's all boring, cancerous and takes no skill.
Decks that take actual brain power to use are control decks, and midrange decks like jund that is a healthy balance of creatures, removal, land, and hate pieces.
Back to the original topic at hand, the people that hate mill are one trick pony decks that take very little brain power to work and do whatever they can to protect their win con. But mill is just bad enough for people to not prepare for it and just good enough to sneak in wins against people that don't sideboard for it. It's not skill intensive but having to have the right balance in protection, mill and counter hate pieces makes it more challenging to win with than burn or sheoldred
Milling flavor is giving the opponent demented insanity
My girlfriend knows nothing about magic so when I explained to her the flavor of milling her response was "so you're just bimbofying your opponents then?"
meh the only people who hate getting milled are people who have never learned how to play mill and have no idea how to leverage their graveyard as a resource
w/e helps you sleep at night
😂 I'm "that mill guy" in my circle
I had to get sneaky about it, and the last mill deck I built was solid green, using Alter of Dementia.
The first time I dropped it and proceeded to trample one guy down, and then mill the other 2 was glorious.
At my LGS, I'm called "that mill guy". It's a brotherhood.
Especially in commander - outside of Bruvac, mill is objectively bad. It is the hardest wincon to pull off. A combat deck, alt wincon, or even burn deck are so much easier to win off of. And there's so much counter tech.
And seriously, if you think you can't fit any counter-mill tech in a 100-card deck? Most of my decks aren't mill and I always have a way to either counter mill or weaponize it against my opponents.
facts
Same
I had a General Tazri deck that could pretty consistently mill someone out by turn 5-6 by ramping to make a ton of Halimar excavatiors and blink the non-tokens but it's actively a worse line then the Ally that damages people and it made me public enemy number 1 for the rest of the game because I chose not to just kill the table.
@@Oxygen1004 Yep, Tazri is up to cEDH-level good... unless you play mill in which case it's worse Bruvac.
Mill in commander is just rough.
If you go fast with mill you're super fragile, and also not actually fast. If you go slow, you're nowhere near as durable as STAX, Control, or Aristocrats so you're probably not living long enough to pull it off.
It's fun, but it's just not that good. And I say this as someone who adores it.
@@matthewblackwood9653 Totally agree, the best mill Commander I think is by far the Mothman and it's good because it uses milling as a resource and not as the end goal of the deck. I've managed to mill out someone a couple of times, but most of the times the wins come from damage from milling or straight up by beating someone with a huge moth. I feel that if Phenax's text would make each opponent mill instead of a target he would be THE Mill Commander for sure, hopefully on the next Theros we get that.
The salt must flow.
But this is 100% accurate. If you play modern and you're upset about mill, then you either have no interaction in your deck or you refuse to play a different deck that can better counter mill. And both reasons are pathetic considering how much money you can sink into those decks.
First of all, I think it is good to have a linear combo like amulet titan be vulnerable to that kind of disruption and that mill is still mostly a psychological thing in most matchups.
That being said. in the case of modern, you could be playing something like amulet titan, where hitting random cards in huge batches can heavily break your synergies lol. In heavy tutor decks you don't care if the card you're looking for is the last one of the deck, as long as it's still in the deck. Then you have your wincon milled and surgical-extracted and it's basically a 2-card combo against you lol. So Milling is actually valid disruption there and not just a psychological thing.
You Have to be upset can't just be uninterested.
As a burn player, I love mill. Sure I hit 3 lands. Keep hitting my mana, excuse me while I queue up Gas Gas Gas from Initial D.
We have a guy at our lgs who loves mill. His modern mill deck is over $2000 and it's his baby. Also everyone loves the guy. He really brought magic back to life at our small town LGS after COVID hit
Mindcrank for life.
I was the mill guy in my playgroup when I first started too. I started during the RtR/Theros standard and I bought the Dimir starter deck. Consuming Aberration has been my favorite card ever since.
Lantern Control is not a mill deck.
Love, all 7 of us who play Lantern Control.
The difference for a lot of players is that if they never drew a card that is bad luck, but if you mill a card they know they would have drawn that card had you not intervened.
So when they see you out their good cards in the bin they get upset about it
mill players always make up dumb reasons why people aren't interested in playing vs mill. oh its PsycHoloGicAl, oh i milled ur combo peace. winning vs mill is boring. what made up reason do you have for people who WIN vs mill but don't enjoy it the experience even when they win.
@@MegaTunamelt that's simple mill is playing on a different axis to standard decks and often winning vs mill is about having the right types of hate or just being faster than then. So people end up feeling like they don't have a lot of agency In the matchup.
Either you surgical my endurance or I kick your ass how engaging and fun! Wooo
@@joshuaturner4602 or i' just an empty win because your not interested in the match up so you just going thru motions so your opponent can "play their cards" haha. one of my main decks is putting instants and sorcery cards in my GY. the perfect deck vs mill. I almost never lose vs mill w that deck. I don't enjoy playing vs mill w that deck. easy my ass
if ponza was socially acceptable, i'd be playing it every day. you mill guys have it easier than we do...
Getting milled is card advantage. You can’t change my mind.
I love playing against mill I don’t remember ever losing to it. Mind you I like playing rally the ancestors and zoo variations. So I either synergies or go under them. I have won at least 5 matches with mill. Decks I hate to play against: Control, Shadow, Tron.
I sentence thatmillguy to 5 leagues of Land destruction
I built a token spam deck and recently put Altar of the Brood in it. It is very funny forcing my opponents to deck out when the Prossh combo goes off. Meanwhile, if my opponent starts milling me, I'll be fine as long as I have Palace Siege on the field.
It’s been extremely rough for Spirits TBH. I’m really hoping in Duskmourn we get some pushed ghosts to bring the deck back to viability again. Flare of Denial has been nice at least - but as it stands, Merfolk is just better.
Mill is Life.
Right now it is gas- bring back Lurrus!
Haven't watched the video but the first time I played mill versus my lil brother he literally cried great time lol
You can actually just not enjoy playing against mill or discard and still be a decent, or even good, player. Just like with "two ships pasing in the night" combo decks, mill doesn't leave much in the way of itneracting with your opponent. Same deal with discard decks and being forced to top deck all game. One person is playing a game, and that game is to keep the other person from playing the game.
thats called magic the gathering
@@yuvalsela4482 it's called bad game design and it's a large reason why new card games have gone in and mostly fixed shit like this.
Mill is a very interactive deck, and so are discard decks. UK what isn't interactive? Elves...they just present a board and say can you handle this.
Mill is just burn but with your library and not your life total so you can't gain life to get outta the issue. Milling 10 is kinda like dealing 4-5 damage.
@@ToadboyMTG whoosh buddy. No shit mill and discard are interactive decks...for the players using them. All an opponent can do is race mill and top deck against discard. Brilliant game design.
@@Xoulrath_ theres a lot of interaction in mtg that isnt removal spells. but when you say "mill is hard to interact with" you just mean hard to effectively use creature removal against.
Just shits on two big modern players. Spike is a sick brewer and player.
in college i was 'the late guy' because i was late to every class
I have a Zellix mill deck in Edh which is towards the more powerful side.. an 8 and people with equally powerful decks get so mad when I play it.
battle passes are fine in f2p games cod being $70 and having battle passes is nice
nah skimmed over a couple of min mid vid, this is what they all say. the archetype just isn't interesting to some people. let me explain. I can WIN vs mill and the whole thing is a negative experience . it's just uninteresting. I don't enjoy winning vs mill.
No wonder milling has a psychological effect. You're literary tearing their minds apart 🦀
So a skill issue or luck issue. Just add 4 copies of emrakul and go to sleep.
I'm surprised your channel is about mtg with all the leverless controllers behind you.
Look. I play mill. Ive always played mill. Ive done NOTHING more important for my local competitive team than twaching them to never let their anger get the better of them. Mull deals real world psychic damage since you 'see' what you COULD have had.
Mill sure is about the emotional damage 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Mill is my second favorite archetype, second only to control. And even as a control player I love having mill has a wincon
Mill players don’t really play magic if you think about it. You don’t have much interaction with the other players deck.
I almost never leave a comment but I just felt sorry for people who play mill.
/hug
I hope you find joy in life.
Mill is about making the opponent go insane and/or damage their cognitive functions. Look at the name of some of the mill cards Traumatize, Maddening Cacophany, Altar of Dementia.
Mill for me isn’t as fun playing it or for my opponents. You side it for it like you would for any control or oops all spells type of play. Swaping removal for disruption like counterspells or discard effects. Also out of all archetypes it helps a lot more decks than other decks. Mill an Aggro deck, they just continue their game plan unchanged, it actively helps the graveyard decks like goryo’s and living end, unless the mill player gets lucky and mills specific cards . Or you deal with shit like the bird who’s already trying to loop endurance. Like it’s a control deck with extra steps. And cool if you do mill your opponent out but, you’d get the same reaction chalicing on one or blood moon locking someone. Or just play azorious/jeskai control
Its not about winning, its about taking away their toys.
Calls everyone else cope
Copes the entire video
you must enjoy every possible way to play mtg or you suck
For me, mill as a play style sits up there with pure combo as a strategy I dread playing against - not because of losing my own cards, but because of the lack of impact any game action I take seems to matter against said strategy.
Swing for tons of damage? Doesn't matter.
Discard their whole hand? Doesn't matter.
Exile their graveyard? Doesn't matter.
Board wipes & targeted removal? Does not matter.
In my view, mill decks - like combo decks - are the decks least interested in what's going on in the game itself because they only need to resolve one or two cards to win & otherwise could care less about any other game actions.
This leads me to feel like my actions don't matter - & by extension that I as the opponent don't matter.
I know that is a bit extreme, but between the sense of inevitably that mill decks can produce & the lack of any meaningful way to tell if I impacted the game at all against the mill player, I just never really find the experience all that enjoyable.
I kinda disagree with you big time. If you're talking about the conventional dimir mill deck, there are no 1-2 cards and you win. Mill is extremely weak against burn or aggro decks, can favor reanimator, murktide or dredge decks, so the player must be careful with what he does. He also needs to know a great deal of information to be able to use Extirpate or surgical extraction with are key pieces of the deck and make decisions about what to get out and when. He also needs to know when to play a more control type of game with cards like subtlety, spell pierce, drown in the loch, fatal push... There is a LOT of interaction and a lot of choices to be made depending on what the other player do. From my perspective, it is totally a two player game where one races to get down the life total of the other while the mill player is trying to empty the library.
Storm on the other hand, IMO, is more the kind of decks you're talking about: "just tell me when you'll be done with you storm counters...!"
@@ConflictPeace I apologize for not clarifying; I don't get to play a lot of 60-card 1vs1. My post was in the context of EDH.
In my experience, despite it's reputation as weak or difficult to pull off, mill has been historically one of the strongest strategies in my local area. Tasha, Muldrotha, Syr Konrad, Phenax - you name a commander known for milling the table out, I've lost to them, repeatedly, and quickly.
@@notgonnasay09 I'm a Konrad player. Here's some tips on taking the deck down.
The deck is extremely weak to any form of aggro strategy or exile/reshuffle spot removal. It doesn't have good board presence if going for a mill win. Too much tutors and mill cards to do it. He's also hit really hard by artifact/enchantment removal because he's extremely reliant on those for his combos/grind accelerators.
Do not board wipe while he's active, or exile grave while he's on the field. Perform those actions while he's not out and it sets him back a ton. Also do not go wide or wheel while he's out.
If you know his play patterns Konrad is actually pretty fragile and can be set into the stone age fairly easily, but if you screw up he punishes players very hard.
@@notgonnasay09 Oh allright! Didn't know mill was a winning strategy in EDH!
But then, cards like emrakul the aeon's thorn, Gaea's blessing and Endurance could be of help (but you need green for the last two...)
but you probably know that...
Imagine being mad at yoyr Opponent for removing cards from your deck, and not from your hand.
Like your opponent isnt effecting your immediate Choices, just your future ones, and youre mad about that.
Lmao, people need to grow a pair, the Mill player isnt even effecting your board state, your hand, or your Life total, and yet youre just seething at the fact that your deck got smaller. 😅😅😅😅
Winning vs mill sucks, nah ur a hater, can't fathom some one not liking the game the same way you do. people always say "there's so many ways to play magic" no one ever says " you have to like them all or you suck" hilarious.
We get it, you don't like mill. You're allowed to have that opinion too. You realize Shaf is just making a controversial video to get more interaction on his channel, right?
Tbh, it doesn't matter what happens at the top 1% of competitive play.
If there is too much "unfun" things are happening at the base (local FNM), that's bad for the game.
And this "get good" attitude is toxic and one reason parts of the competitive community stink.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure of this psychological explanation is that legit.
Fun is to play their cards. Not beeing able to play the cards through mill is not so fun. But playing against control and beeing countered is even way more unfun. But they didn't stop the support for control.
Also I think that the average magic player is today more informed than 10 years ago and I don't think, that the negative reaction to mill is the same today.
Personally I would like a bit more variation with a viable real mill deck in pauper and pioneer
i said this to a modo opponent recently, they got butthurt but i mean its just true man emotionalism totally aside not intended to be a combative statement, just objectively true
playing against mill is non-practice
sorry not sorry. i just want valid, pertinent, quality practice, and mill fails to provide that to me every time regardless of the outcome
anyone is completely free to interpret this however they want, but its just a fact of the nature of goal oriented competitive practice
I was that mill guy in my area. I played with glimpses, mind funeral, breaking//entering, thoughtseize, manic scribe, etc.
Heck, I tried to make it it work in legacy. th-cam.com/video/D3p1xg2p8-E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=pJajmSQk13ERbd1_
In my experience, People do not like mill for the reason they do not like not have a choice in the matter and do not want to think about trying to change their mindset about how to go about winning from the circumstance based on what is in the graveyard, as well as if or if not anything has exiled from surgical//extirpate.
I could see braids getting a mill card since she is running rampant somewhere, being a menace.
then what is the point in having 20 life then is we can just mill
none, you can also just poison
i have been playing mill before glimpse was ever printed
I had so many matches against Estandar Mill than I used a 200+ cards when I started on Magic Arena...
I am not Griefed because I just play formats where is not legal.
Love me some mill. Love it even more when players get salty lmao
I don't think therer is even one magic archetype which is plainly bad. Just broken card from time to time. (Yes i love land destruction and storm xD)
I dont see how a player is bad for having a normal reaction to a bad play experiance. Randomly rolling into your worse match up sucks and id imagine most players have some card or arkitype they rather not have to see a ton. If you are a pro/compeative player you fo kinda consent to dealing with a lot of bs.
There's also a difference between having a hatred for a rival/unfavored deck versus just hating a matchup because you dislike the playstyle of a deck. Both are valid, but the latter types of players tend to be just as combative as Shaf was in the video
absolutely spot on with this. if you hate mill youre just bad. its a valid strategy in this game. crying about it wont do anything
and if you win vs mill and still dislike it, what's your made up reason for that? you have to like every way to play magic or you suck according to the tool?
Mill decks are inherently unfun to play against and are the height of uninteractive magic
Just boring gameplay loop that's all.
speak for yourself. as a graveyard and dregde player I love playing against mill
@@konata8657 nah fam, graveyard decks are Mills best matchup, if the Mill player isn't ready that's on them LOL
@@ThatMillGuyShaf what do you do against it in main deck?
@@codyhanson1344 every mill deck runs like 5 copies of extirpate in the mainboard
@@codyhanson1344 generally speaking Mill, especially in Modern, is packed to the brim with Graveyard hate with a combination of Surgical Extraction and Hard Wipes like Sould-Guide Lanterns