As far as I know, it depends on how you answer. If you ignore it or call the judge you're ok. If you say yes, or make a counter-proposal, you are obviously guilty and they make meatballs out of you. If you say no, but don't call the judge (and they still catch you)... I am not sure, but I think you may still risk a penalty because you were basically bargaining a deal, you just didn't like the one offered enough. I think a big deciding factor is the competitive level of the event. If you are competing at REL professional, like in this case where bit value/money is at stake, you are expected to know the rules, so there isn't much room for discussion with the judge. At lower levels of competition you may get more of a pass. A friend of mine was caught discussing with an opponent of determining the winner with a coinflip (because they tied the actual game and both would have been out of day 2 contention at the tournament) at a REL competitive event and he only got a game loss because he was able to convince the judge he didn't know about the rule, but if you know the rules it's game loss + disqualification.
remind me to bring 7 friends to every tournament, so that if I top 8, they can each deliberately ask my opponents for an illegal split, and I instantly win top 8 :)
@@luthix3314 based on what is written, the guy was trying to BUY equity. He was offering cash for prize equity? So it wouldn't matter if he was actually in the tournament.
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus you mean casually implying judges aren't wrong but actively deceptive and corrupt is ok, mocking that stupid take is mean 🤣 Oh i meant "hostile" 🤣 Tell me how you managed to come to that conclusion? Go to the playground if you want to play hall monitor 😉
Round 3 or 4 of a 5 round event My buddy got given a match loss (essentially) for saying good game and presenting a handshake when he was winning the match (opponent at 0 cards in hand or library) and judge agreed when his opponent raised his hand in victory and said "you conceded." Buddy now has a vendetta vs the opponent and was the closest he's ever been to Flipping a table Different judge 3 man trios event Judge gave a teammate a very wrong ruling but as only judge he had last word. Torpor or shutting down meddling mage which lost us our 1-1 match that winner went to the cut. 2 of the other teams players were going through judge training and agreed with me that it didn't sound right or wasn't correct at all 2nd judge different event He likely lost me a game by having an opponent shuffle their emrakul into their deck in the middle of an archive trap (like card 7 of 13). I had another trap in hand to mill more on top and a crypt incursion to remove as many shufflers as I could while gaining life and possibly more mill with a pair of visions and some Islands up. told me my spell is in the middle of resolving I can't put anything on the stack. I've learned to absolutely be a dick to this judge when he plays and told the stores I play at if that judge is there I'm not competing with incompetence.
In fighting game tournaments I've seen people walk on stage and talk to a player and get them a match loss for coaching even if that person isn't a coach or was asked for advice
They dq’ed players for proxies that were real cards and kicked a player out of top 8 earlier this year and others out of the tournament… the judges do need cleaned up.
I know Julian, he, his brother, & dad basically grew up playing at one of my old LGS's. He's always been a great Magic player & a chill kid. This is a fucking atrocity, what in the actual fuck was up with these judges at this event? He should have had a chance to appeal, bare minimum, but nah, these judges just decided to ruin his day with incomplete information.
I was in the secret lair showdown but not present for the DQ (died round 1 lol). At the start it was announced to all players that there would be no talks of splitting whatsoever, PT rules, comp REL, etc. The head judge said something about adhering to the strict rules in order to keep doing the secret lair showdowns in the future. The exact prizing was the secret lair showdown murktide promo card for all qualifier participants then 1 secret lair pack that we could choose between or the dark ritual and the bigger dark ritual for 1st place. I can confirm that there were 100% players present who were negotiating equity splits prior to the player meeting- why wouldn't there be the prizing gap is astronomical. I can understand that they would be trigger happy with DQs if splitting was mentioned but it sounds unjustified here.
Man, this is a really shitty situation. Judge was definitely power tripping at this point. It does sound to me that the involved judge might be doing the split and had a preferred winner/s.
Got it so imma pay my friends from this day forward to go up to my opponents and ask if they are still going to split with them when they win it all. Auto 1st place every time makes sense.
Justice got to be done, and seen to be done. The judges need to give a written report of exactly what happened, what rule the player breached, and why their actions were an appropriate response. This report needs to say how a player can safely respond to a random request from the outside. This is fair to the player involved, prevents similar issues in the future and can undo the PR damage which the clumsy judging has created.
I stopped playing competitive because I kept getting the same German judge in my area anytime I got rule sharked in major events. Which is another problem that needs to be addressed regarding player integrity. I know my skillset and understanding of the game and I rarely make mistakes that will illicit a warning during competitive play but this particular juddge would constantly make bad calls that would benefit my opponent. Was goddamn annoying
Just fucked and honestly they should be doing something about the judging program. I keep hearing nothing but down fall all the time with the judging program... It should be taken care of by WOtC. All together he should be complicated for the issue at hand and given the time to explain the situation. The judges actually should be replaced due to the fact that it was unfair and quite rude ruling.
AJAB, 11012. But seriously. This leaves a horrible taste in people's mouth. Honestly, the secondary market is clearly influencing these tournament rewards, even when they keep pretending they don't perceive it. The judges being so stedfast in their decision when nothing happened is horrible. This ruling feels incredibly poorly handled.
The judge program is sadly lacking in quality control, and no good guidelines or review of how they should judge leads to inconsistent calls and awful moments like this at larger events
as someone who began looking at what was required to even become a judge recently (out of interest for helping out locally)... can attest this is something i quickly noticed when going through what I'd need to cover for this. The required tests from my understanding being created by the individuals who take on the mentor and teaching role... leads to a case where the individuals effectively marking you for the status - also seem to be the ones who are teaching. Which leads to an inherent likelihood of perpetuating any issues that inherently exist in that last generation of judges. And its always from that smaller circle of the higher up judges as you try to move up the ladder to the different levels of judges.
When the judge is bad it makes wanting to play competitive in paper. Had a local judge I had beef with because of personal issues we have. Its great when the judge does something to power trip in 4 rcq in the row that caused you to miss the top 8 3 times directory do to odd rulings
The whole no splitting allowed is bullshit. I watched a year ago in Barcelona, the top 4 of the Brainstorm event discussed the possible splitting for 15 minutes in front of judges, and nothing happened. The only reason they didn't was that it was a logistical nightmare, as 2 of them were American, one local and one Scottish.
It honestly isn't. It's too easy for finalists/semi-finalists to collude together where one throws a match at the end and a split happens. It's 100% against the competitive nature of the tournament. Banning splits is a way to remove that inscentive. It's not a bad thing. This can be done behind closed doors without the judges noticing, but then again, if you're found out, it becomes a scandal. Banning splits helps to preserve competitiveness within the tournament.
I have literally seen two olympic high jump competitors going back and forth with each other, agreeing to tie and both got gold. Not allowing a split in magic is an outdated rule that makes no sense anymore.
You’re a content creator. They’re one of the very few pros who’s honest. They aren’t buddy buddy with any of the judges and other players probably tried to report it cause he didn’t take a split with them. WOTC doesn’t care about their players, just the optics.
I've had my fill of awful judges over the years so none of this really surprises me. It's so painfully obvious that they have favorites that they'll give far too many "warnings" to while throwing the book at people not in the loop. It's nothing new. 9/10 judges are there for a power trip and/or kickbacks as otherwise it's an incredibly difficult job with no pay. You think WOTC just dissolved the Judge Program for giggles? They tried to fix years of rot like this to no avail.
@@zeusjukem9484 A power trip and/or kickbacks! MTG judges have done some really gross stuff over the years that make this controversy look like nothing.
One of the first player championships the judges dq’ed a player for playing his lands in a frustrating manner…so to think that judges are causing issues has pretty much been in tournament magic since its inception…
this system doesnt seem to have a lot of oversight, judge jimbob accused someone of "Improperly deciding the game" and then the head judge dq'd them. If he was crushing it are we sure that one of his opponents wasnt like "hey Jim Bob, im pretty likely to win except that one guy who has been crushing it, fucking make something up and get him dq'd and I will give you $25000" jim bob overhears something thinks "well this is an easy 25k" and then gets him dq'd. There is no opportunity to speak in his defence jimbob doesnt need to give any evidence other than his own eye witness testimony. The whole story plays out basically the same if Jimbob makes up the accusation. Honestly there needs to be some standards of evidence put into place when you are dqing someone in a game with prize support.
I think Grand archive is doing it great, not only to top 8 get cash prizing, they also get from exclusive top 8 cards to whole booster boxes. And the difference between 1st and 2nd isn't as crazy as that
Playing for power(AKA, power 9 Alpha/Beta cards in the price pool) has been a part of eternal tournament magic. But they tend ot hand out more than just a lotus to the winner.
@@PALIGames RCQ's are 10-22 people. I remember back when I'd go to a PTQ, PPTQ, or States and think 45-60 was awful during a bad format. I'd kill to see 60 again.
I'm coming in late. Julian admits he know people were doing equity splits and selling equity. Failing to turn them in is a violation of the sportsmanship rules, and the DQ is warranted. Unfortunately for him, a lot of other people should have been DQ'ed as well, but he's the one who chose to remain silent, and then admitting it. This is on him. Also, to say he doesn't know the rules on splits? I call bullshit. Me? I don't know the rules on splits. I've also played in like 3 competitive REL tournaments in my life. A guy like him? He's participated in dozens of them. He knows the rules, and if he does not, that's just him being a dumbass. However, the refusal of the head judge to allow him to have any further say is extremely problematic. Had this been me, it would be an immediate lawsuit, due to my unique circumstances. WotC needs to tread extremely carefully in situations like this, because any lawsuit is going to name the head judge, the tournament organizer, various sponsors, and WotC. Perhaps this will be the flashpoint needed to enact change. I don't like splits. You don't see Tiger Woods doing splits with Scottie Scheffler, or Rafael Nadal splitting with Roger Federer. Has no place in MtG.
According to another comment the tourney's no-split talk policy was clearly announced at start of the tournament, so yeah, I call bullshit on his excuse.
I understand no splitting for the players as 4 players could just chop tourney for 40k a lot easier than 1/32. but having someone outside the game back you for a % of the tourney to cover all your costs seems ok. The only weird thing is him n fried have this convo at tourney out loud not via text or before tourney
AND LETS GET RIIIIIIIGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTT INTO THE NEWS Real talk. I don't get how he can say "I was getting asked to split all day" and then in the next paragraph say he didn't understand what his friend meant. But either way sounds like a lot of miscommunication and sketchy judging
With the kind and quality of person wotc tries to court, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some whackos overwatering the event. That said, it could've been cheating or an action seen as cheating and they wanted something to peg him with.
The way this story is told by the OP doesn't add up. From what we know, they were creating odds. Therefore, they were gambling the prize between all the participants. Being that the case, they were incurring in bribery.
I can't really feel too bad for anyone in these situations. For far too many years this kind of thing has been going on and it's pathetic. Splitting should be a perma ban just like cheating should be. But this game has a bad joke of a competitive environment.
Judges can be great but the program has been infested with too many "that guy" rules lawyer types and very few player advocates and this gets worse when you realise that the "Pros" and "Judges" are two very insular groups with very close relationships and the fact that the only people who can afford to be a judge are the people who are going to be heavily invested in the space and even just saying this out loud, its not a surprise that the average player's interactions with the judges are so damn hostile when compared to pro players it's like you're talking about 2 different people.
This is an interesting one.. flip it. If you are a judge at a tournament with $50k on the line. You get word that one of the final 4 is cheating. What’s the play? Let it go and wait til after and screwing 4 ppl? Stop the tournament and investigate? There is no question this is a terrible look but I honestly don’t know how else this plays out…
If you're a judge at such an event you should know who the 4 remaining players are and that the person who asked about buying equity isn't one of them.
In the post affect, he should have been DQ'd from the second paragraph alone. Entertaining swaps, and not turning the players in, is DQ material, as per sportsmanship rules
he should get a dq cause other people talked to him??? and how would one even prove that if he wanted to report? just say “x player was trying to collude,” that sounds like a recipe for exploitation and abuse through baseless accusations.
@@iota7037 for not reporting that someone talked to him about conducting an unsportsmanlike venture? Yes, you should be DQd Entertaining or allowing others to entertain such conduct is DQ behaviour, in and of itself
just @ wizards on this and make sure they are very much in public eye and aware if it the backlash alone if you can get 2 million eyes on a tweet with them mentioned in it would fix the situation from having a chance of ever happening again
Tournament equity as it is, is consider wagering in the rules. MTR 5.3 say "Tournament participants, tournament officials, and spectators may not wager, ante, or bet on any portion (including the outcome) of a tournament, match, or game." and IPG 4.4 says this on wagering "Wagering occurs when a player or spectator at a tournament places or offers to place a bet on the outcome of a tournament, match or any portion of a tournament or match. The wager does not need to be monetary, nor is it relevant if a player is not betting on their own match." From reading this it is the same and a match loss is what is called for. The DQ is just because a match loss in a single elimination tournament it happens. From what I can tell the judges their job based on the information given to them.
but he didn’t place or offer a wager at all, his friend did. From what hes saying he was kinda just letting his friend yap while he thought about his next match. This type of judging sets a bad precedent because honest players now have to wear earplugs and blindfolds lest some random comes up to them saying “you wanna bet on the next match” and a judge happens to be nearby.
I would have fought tooth and nail there and then until they at least listened to what i said. Call the t/o get on stage get the other players involved. Idk its so messed up to steal this mans chance like that.
I like to think that we heard just one side of the story and there is probably more to it than the player tells. At this high stakes event, they wouldn't just basically dq someone on a wimp. They know what shitstorm a wrong decision would bring. And dqs are rarely decided by just one person. Maybe he said a little more to the judges than he is confessing in this statement. Not saying i have a strong opinion one or the other, but in live rarely nothing is only black and white.
I really wish they would just come out and explain it. It sounds like maybe something else was heard or misunderstood, so it needs to get out in the open what the judges saw or understood.
As a judge, and a somebody who knows meg, I think reading her tournament report regarding this would be good for people to hear too. This was a sticky situation all in all but I think there are things not being said by all parties
It is inherently anti competitive. It creates an incentive for people to throw a match or tie a game to receive monetary benefit while ignoring the spirit of competition. Even if there are only 2 players left, there can be collusion to fix the match, which isn't playing the game. Disallowing splitting is good practice for tournament environments, and more competitions should ban it as well. If you don't get caught, then whatever, but if you do, it should be considered going against the spirit of play and result in a ban. Whatever happened here isn't an issue with the rule. It's an issue with the ruling, which is unfair but understandable. Especially if there is a 0 tolerance policy. I do think there needs to be safeguards for people doing it out of the blue like this.
@jorjor500 but didn't relay that to the judge. Which if you're told at the start of the event there will be no talk of splitting etc means he wasn't paying attention not the judges fault or didn't care also not the judges fault. Ignorance isn't an excuse that this level either it's an ultra high stakes with 50k on the line and you know the rules or it's a causal event with a piece cardboard online where it doesn't matter can't have it both ways.
@@gcleeman most judges don’t even know all of the rules by heart. The judge should have clarified the situation at hand instead of what happened. If you’re going to effectively DQ someone it should be on you as the person with that authority to investigate at least a little bit before handing down that type of punishment in a single elimination tournament. Not some weird hearsay, second hand over hearing of a discussion.
Also how dumb is his friend? Like why would he come up then and ask him about it, if he wanted to do that should have done it before, you’d think if they were friends they would ya know talk about a tournament and he would already know he didn’t want to split
I have a good friend who is a judge and he will say look this is how the ruling is supposed to go, now if it really doesn't change anything about the game and makes the game more fun then your interaction will be okay this time. Just remember next time it won't go this way.
Judges have always been some of the SCUMMIEST people in mtg history. This really doesn't surprise me. Sucks for Julian. But this has been a thing for nearly a decade
Bad/Biased judges are so endemic in competitive MtG, it’s not unreasonable to assume malice in a vacuum. When I played Type I competitively in the late nineties/early 2000’s, it was an open secret that a solid 33% of the judges essentially backed a small handful of players each. Back then, at least, it was *really* common for a judge to “need to leave due to sudden illness” during an event. (Read, the HJ caught them at something shady, but didn’t want all of them tarred with the same brush.)
Dude, no hate, but please stop repeating yourself over and over about the basic into. I'm a couple minutes in, and it's making it hard to listen to. Thanks man
To accuse the judges of "power tripping" when only hearing one side of the story is why this is a drama channel. This seems to be a developing situation and is potentially under investigation. Trashing the judges before actually knowing the facts is irresponsible and dumb. Plus, if the rules were that no discussions of splitting were allowed and dude's friend started up the conversation within earshot of a judge, then, perhaps, dude should be pissed at his friend? Don't trash the judges for doing their job without actual evidence to back a seemingly basely accusation of them simply wanting to abuse their power.
You can't control what other people do. It's completely unreasonable to ban someone for what a spectator says. People like you are the reason the bad judges have gotten away with so much for so long. If judges at a majority weren't an issue, the judge program and the academy would still be around.
Why would anyone even entertain this type of conversation on the convention floor within earshot of any judge? Also anyone calling judges “cops” or wanting to drag them on social media is weak.
That would be irresponsible. We dont know if what he is saying is 100% of the truth or the truth at all. We have only his side. Him not knowing what splits is a bit suspicious
This whole thing STINKS of a Judge misconduct. They need a MASSIVE revamp of the Judge program, certification, and accountability for bad judges. They're as terrible as MLB Umpires in the past few years and one of these bad judges needs to be sued in Civil Court.
So you can get anyone DQed for asking them about splitting in front of a judge? I see no way someone could get their opponents DQed in such a fashion.
As far as I know, it depends on how you answer. If you ignore it or call the judge you're ok. If you say yes, or make a counter-proposal, you are obviously guilty and they make meatballs out of you.
If you say no, but don't call the judge (and they still catch you)... I am not sure, but I think you may still risk a penalty because you were basically bargaining a deal, you just didn't like the one offered enough.
I think a big deciding factor is the competitive level of the event. If you are competing at REL professional, like in this case where bit value/money is at stake, you are expected to know the rules, so there isn't much room for discussion with the judge. At lower levels of competition you may get more of a pass.
A friend of mine was caught discussing with an opponent of determining the winner with a coinflip (because they tied the actual game and both would have been out of day 2 contention at the tournament) at a REL competitive event and he only got a game loss because he was able to convince the judge he didn't know about the rule, but if you know the rules it's game loss + disqualification.
I think the issue is that in this case the other person wasn’t in the tournament, if it would’ve been an opponent they likely both would’ve been DQed
That guy must have been acting as an intermediary between two players because it makes no sense for him to trade equity when he has none.
remind me to bring 7 friends to every tournament, so that if I top 8, they can each deliberately ask my opponents for an illegal split, and I instantly win top 8 :)
@@luthix3314 based on what is written, the guy was trying to BUY equity. He was offering cash for prize equity? So it wouldn't matter if he was actually in the tournament.
Mtg judges overreacting and taking a power trip? Say it ain't so
I mean it is so, those high level Js be trifling, favoritism is strong and it's part of why the program got divorced from wotc.
Absolutely wild speculation: did any of the judges involved have equity from any players?
Wow, have you thought about that yourself or did you have help?
@@TheGahtayour mom helped him 😊
@@TheGahta. No reason to be hostile
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus you mean casually implying judges aren't wrong but actively deceptive and corrupt is ok, mocking that stupid take is mean 🤣
Oh i meant "hostile" 🤣
Tell me how you managed to come to that conclusion?
Go to the playground if you want to play hall monitor 😉
@@TheGahta yeah that’s what I meant, clearly. (Insert cope emojis)
If someone ends up with all of those Dark Rituals, they've *gotta* play them in a pauper deck, it's just too perfect.
No wonder people just play commander now
I will never play commander Lmao
@@tylerberg4832based
Round 3 or 4 of a 5 round event My buddy got given a match loss (essentially) for saying good game and presenting a handshake when he was winning the match (opponent at 0 cards in hand or library) and judge agreed when his opponent raised his hand in victory and said "you conceded." Buddy now has a vendetta vs the opponent and was the closest he's ever been to Flipping a table
Different judge 3 man trios event
Judge gave a teammate a very wrong ruling but as only judge he had last word. Torpor or shutting down meddling mage which lost us our 1-1 match that winner went to the cut. 2 of the other teams players were going through judge training and agreed with me that it didn't sound right or wasn't correct at all
2nd judge different event
He likely lost me a game by having an opponent shuffle their emrakul into their deck in the middle of an archive trap (like card 7 of 13). I had another trap in hand to mill more on top and a crypt incursion to remove as many shufflers as I could while gaining life and possibly more mill with a pair of visions and some Islands up. told me my spell is in the middle of resolving I can't put anything on the stack. I've learned to absolutely be a dick to this judge when he plays and told the stores I play at if that judge is there I'm not competing with incompetence.
@TripleGProductions because Meddling Mage is an as it enters ability and not when it enters, torpor orb doesnt stop it.
@@Bentothethird I know he ruled it did
In fighting game tournaments I've seen people walk on stage and talk to a player and get them a match loss for coaching even if that person isn't a coach or was asked for advice
They dq’ed players for proxies that were real cards and kicked a player out of top 8 earlier this year and others out of the tournament… the judges do need cleaned up.
I know Julian, he, his brother, & dad basically grew up playing at one of my old LGS's. He's always been a great Magic player & a chill kid. This is a fucking atrocity, what in the actual fuck was up with these judges at this event? He should have had a chance to appeal, bare minimum, but nah, these judges just decided to ruin his day with incomplete information.
I was in the secret lair showdown but not present for the DQ (died round 1 lol). At the start it was announced to all players that there would be no talks of splitting whatsoever, PT rules, comp REL, etc. The head judge said something about adhering to the strict rules in order to keep doing the secret lair showdowns in the future. The exact prizing was the secret lair showdown murktide promo card for all qualifier participants then 1 secret lair pack that we could choose between or the dark ritual and the bigger dark ritual for 1st place. I can confirm that there were 100% players present who were negotiating equity splits prior to the player meeting- why wouldn't there be the prizing gap is astronomical. I can understand that they would be trigger happy with DQs if splitting was mentioned but it sounds unjustified here.
"Financially irresponsible"
Yeah we play a game where we buy pieces of cardboard. It exists because we're financially irresponsible.
Man, this is a really shitty situation. Judge was definitely power tripping at this point. It does sound to me that the involved judge might be doing the split and had a preferred winner/s.
Got it so imma pay my friends from this day forward to go up to my opponents and ask if they are still going to split with them when they win it all. Auto 1st place every time makes sense.
Its a real shame that stuff like this keeps happening and making magic look even less like a worthwhile competitive game than it already did.
Justice got to be done, and seen to be done. The judges need to give a written report of exactly what happened, what rule the player breached, and why their actions were an appropriate response. This report needs to say how a player can safely respond to a random request from the outside. This is fair to the player involved, prevents similar issues in the future and can undo the PR damage which the clumsy judging has created.
I stopped playing competitive because I kept getting the same German judge in my area anytime I got rule sharked in major events. Which is another problem that needs to be addressed regarding player integrity. I know my skillset and understanding of the game and I rarely make mistakes that will illicit a warning during competitive play but this particular juddge would constantly make bad calls that would benefit my opponent. Was goddamn annoying
Strap on for a crazy ride may have been the wildest phrasing I’ve ever heard. I respect it.
This is what happens when wizards drop judging support. Really is a shame.
Just fucked and honestly they should be doing something about the judging program.
I keep hearing nothing but down fall all the time with the judging program... It should be taken care of by WOtC.
All together he should be complicated for the issue at hand and given the time to explain the situation.
The judges actually should be replaced due to the fact that it was unfair and quite rude ruling.
Sounds like i need to go to tournaments and ask litterally everyone about splits so they have to DQ litteraly everyone
AJAB, 11012.
But seriously. This leaves a horrible taste in people's mouth. Honestly, the secondary market is clearly influencing these tournament rewards, even when they keep pretending they don't perceive it. The judges being so stedfast in their decision when nothing happened is horrible. This ruling feels incredibly poorly handled.
people may become cops for good reasons, but as soon as good people become cops, they start acting like cops :(
Just sounds like the judges had preferred winners. Probably was a situation where the judges had a secret equity agreement with specific players, lmao
The judge program is sadly lacking in quality control, and no good guidelines or review of how they should judge leads to inconsistent calls and awful moments like this at larger events
as someone who began looking at what was required to even become a judge recently (out of interest for helping out locally)... can attest this is something i quickly noticed when going through what I'd need to cover for this. The required tests from my understanding being created by the individuals who take on the mentor and teaching role...
leads to a case where the individuals effectively marking you for the status - also seem to be the ones who are teaching. Which leads to an inherent likelihood of perpetuating any issues that inherently exist in that last generation of judges. And its always from that smaller circle of the higher up judges as you try to move up the ladder to the different levels of judges.
When the judge is bad it makes wanting to play competitive in paper. Had a local judge I had beef with because of personal issues we have. Its great when the judge does something to power trip in 4 rcq in the row that caused you to miss the top 8 3 times directory do to odd rulings
Yeah i saw this on my X feed yesterday and was blown away at the many levels of bad in this story.
RIP to aspiring Pro Player dreams 😉
Half the tournaments I've been in have been affected by bad rulings, but that's just my experience.
The whole no splitting allowed is bullshit. I watched a year ago in Barcelona, the top 4 of the Brainstorm event discussed the possible splitting for 15 minutes in front of judges, and nothing happened. The only reason they didn't was that it was a logistical nightmare, as 2 of them were American, one local and one Scottish.
It honestly isn't. It's too easy for finalists/semi-finalists to collude together where one throws a match at the end and a split happens. It's 100% against the competitive nature of the tournament. Banning splits is a way to remove that inscentive. It's not a bad thing. This can be done behind closed doors without the judges noticing, but then again, if you're found out, it becomes a scandal. Banning splits helps to preserve competitiveness within the tournament.
I have literally seen two olympic high jump competitors going back and forth with each other, agreeing to tie and both got gold. Not allowing a split in magic is an outdated rule that makes no sense anymore.
Just because someone else does it means it makes it right.
A lot of judges are nerds with power and they will use it
You’re a content creator. They’re one of the very few pros who’s honest. They aren’t buddy buddy with any of the judges and other players probably tried to report it cause he didn’t take a split with them. WOTC doesn’t care about their players, just the optics.
I've had my fill of awful judges over the years so none of this really surprises me. It's so painfully obvious that they have favorites that they'll give far too many "warnings" to while throwing the book at people not in the loop. It's nothing new. 9/10 judges are there for a power trip and/or kickbacks as otherwise it's an incredibly difficult job with no pay.
You think WOTC just dissolved the Judge Program for giggles? They tried to fix years of rot like this to no avail.
no pay?! what is the point of being a judge then?
@@zeusjukem9484 A power trip and/or kickbacks! MTG judges have done some really gross stuff over the years that make this controversy look like nothing.
Definitely sue the judges for damages
IIRC the first Dark Ritual got sold for $30k cash at Chicago Magiccon earlier this year
I blame that friend more then anything, I have had this happen
One of the first player championships the judges dq’ed a player for playing his lands in a frustrating manner…so to think that judges are causing issues has pretty much been in tournament magic since its inception…
No good deed goes unpunished
this system doesnt seem to have a lot of oversight, judge jimbob accused someone of "Improperly deciding the game" and then the head judge dq'd them. If he was crushing it are we sure that one of his opponents wasnt like "hey Jim Bob, im pretty likely to win except that one guy who has been crushing it, fucking make something up and get him dq'd and I will give you $25000" jim bob overhears something thinks "well this is an easy 25k" and then gets him dq'd. There is no opportunity to speak in his defence jimbob doesnt need to give any evidence other than his own eye witness testimony.
The whole story plays out basically the same if Jimbob makes up the accusation. Honestly there needs to be some standards of evidence put into place when you are dqing someone in a game with prize support.
He should sue them for $48k
I think Grand archive is doing it great, not only to top 8 get cash prizing, they also get from exclusive top 8 cards to whole booster boxes. And the difference between 1st and 2nd isn't as crazy as that
Playing for power(AKA, power 9 Alpha/Beta cards in the price pool) has been a part of eternal tournament magic. But they tend ot hand out more than just a lotus to the winner.
Competitive Magic is slowly dying.
Slowly? Dying? It's been dead.
@@PALIGames Try Flesh and Blood! It's got an amazing competitive scene!
@@PALIGames RCQ's are 10-22 people. I remember back when I'd go to a PTQ, PPTQ, or States and think 45-60 was awful during a bad format. I'd kill to see 60 again.
I'm coming in late. Julian admits he know people were doing equity splits and selling equity. Failing to turn them in is a violation of the sportsmanship rules, and the DQ is warranted. Unfortunately for him, a lot of other people should have been DQ'ed as well, but he's the one who chose to remain silent, and then admitting it. This is on him.
Also, to say he doesn't know the rules on splits? I call bullshit. Me? I don't know the rules on splits. I've also played in like 3 competitive REL tournaments in my life. A guy like him? He's participated in dozens of them. He knows the rules, and if he does not, that's just him being a dumbass.
However, the refusal of the head judge to allow him to have any further say is extremely problematic.
Had this been me, it would be an immediate lawsuit, due to my unique circumstances.
WotC needs to tread extremely carefully in situations like this, because any lawsuit is going to name the head judge, the tournament organizer, various sponsors, and WotC.
Perhaps this will be the flashpoint needed to enact change. I don't like splits. You don't see Tiger Woods doing splits with Scottie Scheffler, or Rafael Nadal splitting with Roger Federer.
Has no place in MtG.
According to another comment the tourney's no-split talk policy was clearly announced at start of the tournament, so yeah, I call bullshit on his excuse.
Match loss seems correct here? He was getting a wagering offer and did not immediately decline it, by his own admission.
I understand no splitting for the players as 4 players could just chop tourney for 40k a lot easier than 1/32. but having someone outside the game back you for a % of the tourney to cover all your costs seems ok. The only weird thing is him n fried have this convo at tourney out loud not via text or before tourney
Just noticed them fight sticks! What you playing?
AND LETS GET RIIIIIIIGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTT INTO THE NEWS
Real talk. I don't get how he can say "I was getting asked to split all day" and then in the next paragraph say he didn't understand what his friend meant. But either way sounds like a lot of miscommunication and sketchy judging
Poor Julian...he really got screwed over on this one 😢
I think I'm going to compete competitively, I just need to hire a guy that will ask everyone but me for splits of winnings.
With the kind and quality of person wotc tries to court, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some whackos overwatering the event. That said, it could've been cheating or an action seen as cheating and they wanted something to peg him with.
propably a bribe. no judge would act like this without other evidence
The way this story is told by the OP doesn't add up. From what we know, they were creating odds. Therefore, they were gambling the prize between all the participants. Being that the case, they were incurring in bribery.
I can't really feel too bad for anyone in these situations. For far too many years this kind of thing has been going on and it's pathetic. Splitting should be a perma ban just like cheating should be. But this game has a bad joke of a competitive environment.
I have the exact opposite opinion. splitting should be allowed since it is a privilege for the winners.
@@naiustheyetti you didn't win though. You and your teammate both cheated as to take less risk.
@@bladethebeast2 Mate you cant even talk of splitting unless you are in the winner bracket lol.
It's just like that nicole tipple controversy
Judges can be great but the program has been infested with too many "that guy" rules lawyer types and very few player advocates and this gets worse when you realise that the "Pros" and "Judges" are two very insular groups with very close relationships and the fact that the only people who can afford to be a judge are the people who are going to be heavily invested in the space and even just saying this out loud, its not a surprise that the average player's interactions with the judges are so damn hostile when compared to pro players it's like you're talking about 2 different people.
They split the high jump double gold in last summer Olympics
Why can you split in the top 8 of an RCQ but not here? What’s the difference?
This is an interesting one.. flip it. If you are a judge at a tournament with $50k on the line. You get word that one of the final 4 is cheating. What’s the play? Let it go and wait til after and screwing 4 ppl? Stop the tournament and investigate? There is no question this is a terrible look but I honestly don’t know how else this plays out…
If you're a judge at such an event you should know who the 4 remaining players are and that the person who asked about buying equity isn't one of them.
In the post affect, he should have been DQ'd from the second paragraph alone.
Entertaining swaps, and not turning the players in, is DQ material, as per sportsmanship rules
he should get a dq cause other people talked to him??? and how would one even prove that if he wanted to report? just say “x player was trying to collude,” that sounds like a recipe for exploitation and abuse through baseless accusations.
@@iota7037 for not reporting that someone talked to him about conducting an unsportsmanlike venture?
Yes, you should be DQd
Entertaining or allowing others to entertain such conduct is DQ behaviour, in and of itself
just @ wizards on this and make sure they are very much in public eye and aware if it the backlash alone if you can get 2 million eyes on a tweet with them mentioned in it would fix the situation from having a chance of ever happening again
Tournament equity as it is, is consider wagering in the rules. MTR 5.3 say "Tournament participants, tournament officials, and spectators may not wager, ante, or bet on any portion (including the outcome) of a tournament, match, or game." and IPG 4.4 says this on wagering "Wagering occurs when a player or spectator at a tournament places or offers to place a bet on the outcome of a tournament, match or any portion of a tournament or match. The wager does not need to be monetary, nor is it relevant if a player is not betting on their own match."
From reading this it is the same and a match loss is what is called for. The DQ is just because a match loss in a single elimination tournament it happens.
From what I can tell the judges their job based on the information given to them.
but he didn’t place or offer a wager at all, his friend did. From what hes saying he was kinda just letting his friend yap while he thought about his next match. This type of judging sets a bad precedent because honest players now have to wear earplugs and blindfolds lest some random comes up to them saying “you wanna bet on the next match” and a judge happens to be nearby.
I would have fought tooth and nail there and then until they at least listened to what i said. Call the t/o get on stage get the other players involved. Idk its so messed up to steal this mans chance like that.
Jullian isnt just down 48k hes down 1 friend as well.
I like to think that we heard just one side of the story and there is probably more to it than the player tells. At this high stakes event, they wouldn't just basically dq someone on a wimp. They know what shitstorm a wrong decision would bring. And dqs are rarely decided by just one person. Maybe he said a little more to the judges than he is confessing in this statement. Not saying i have a strong opinion one or the other, but in live rarely nothing is only black and white.
100% there is more to it than they tell.
I really wish they would just come out and explain it. It sounds like maybe something else was heard or misunderstood, so it needs to get out in the open what the judges saw or understood.
As a judge, and a somebody who knows meg, I think reading her tournament report regarding this would be good for people to hear too. This was a sticky situation all in all but I think there are things not being said by all parties
What's wrong with splitting? It's normalized in the fighting game community as an option for top placements
It is inherently anti competitive. It creates an incentive for people to throw a match or tie a game to receive monetary benefit while ignoring the spirit of competition. Even if there are only 2 players left, there can be collusion to fix the match, which isn't playing the game. Disallowing splitting is good practice for tournament environments, and more competitions should ban it as well. If you don't get caught, then whatever, but if you do, it should be considered going against the spirit of play and result in a ban. Whatever happened here isn't an issue with the rule. It's an issue with the ruling, which is unfair but understandable. Especially if there is a 0 tolerance policy. I do think there needs to be safeguards for people doing it out of the blue like this.
That guys story seemed sketchy AF
As someone else posted any talk of splitting was a dq, his excuse if not knowing 100% bs. He knew he needed to just say no. Zero % bad on the judges.
He said no though?
@jorjor500 but didn't relay that to the judge. Which if you're told at the start of the event there will be no talk of splitting etc means he wasn't paying attention not the judges fault or didn't care also not the judges fault. Ignorance isn't an excuse that this level either it's an ultra high stakes with 50k on the line and you know the rules or it's a causal event with a piece cardboard online where it doesn't matter can't have it both ways.
@@gcleeman most judges don’t even know all of the rules by heart. The judge should have clarified the situation at hand instead of what happened. If you’re going to effectively DQ someone it should be on you as the person with that authority to investigate at least a little bit before handing down that type of punishment in a single elimination tournament. Not some weird hearsay, second hand over hearing of a discussion.
@jorjor500 it's not rocket science that splitting is unsportsmanlike conduct at best and cheating normally
Would you tell a judge about cheating?
@jorjor500 judge did clarify he asked what was being discussed player said prize splitting. Not sure how more clear cut it gets then that.
Yo my dude, This has been a problem with judges for forever.. The judges have always been the worst part of competitive MTG.
Also how dumb is his friend? Like why would he come up then and ask him about it, if he wanted to do that should have done it before, you’d think if they were friends they would ya know talk about a tournament and he would already know he didn’t want to split
I have a good friend who is a judge and he will say look this is how the ruling is supposed to go, now if it really doesn't change anything about the game and makes the game more fun then your interaction will be okay this time. Just remember next time it won't go this way.
Judges have always been some of the SCUMMIEST people in mtg history. This really doesn't surprise me. Sucks for Julian. But this has been a thing for nearly a decade
Sue for damages.
I need more evidence. It's possible, yes.
But it's also possible that he's not conveying all the facts.
Bad/Biased judges are so endemic in competitive MtG, it’s not unreasonable to assume malice in a vacuum.
When I played Type I competitively in the late nineties/early 2000’s, it was an open secret that a solid 33% of the judges essentially backed a small handful of players each.
Back then, at least, it was *really* common for a judge to “need to leave due to sudden illness” during an event.
(Read, the HJ caught them at something shady, but didn’t want all of them tarred with the same brush.)
Dude, no hate, but please stop repeating yourself over and over about the basic into. I'm a couple minutes in, and it's making it hard to listen to. Thanks man
To accuse the judges of "power tripping" when only hearing one side of the story is why this is a drama channel. This seems to be a developing situation and is potentially under investigation. Trashing the judges before actually knowing the facts is irresponsible and dumb. Plus, if the rules were that no discussions of splitting were allowed and dude's friend started up the conversation within earshot of a judge, then, perhaps, dude should be pissed at his friend? Don't trash the judges for doing their job without actual evidence to back a seemingly basely accusation of them simply wanting to abuse their power.
You can't control what other people do. It's completely unreasonable to ban someone for what a spectator says. People like you are the reason the bad judges have gotten away with so much for so long. If judges at a majority weren't an issue, the judge program and the academy would still be around.
Goddamn.
Why would anyone even entertain this type of conversation on the convention floor within earshot of any judge?
Also anyone calling judges “cops” or wanting to drag them on social media is weak.
Post the judges names now. They need dragged over social media.
That would be irresponsible. We dont know if what he is saying is 100% of the truth or the truth at all. We have only his side. Him not knowing what splits is a bit suspicious
Too late, they already posted names
lol judgegate
This whole thing STINKS of a Judge misconduct. They need a MASSIVE revamp of the Judge program, certification, and accountability for bad judges. They're as terrible as MLB Umpires in the past few years and one of these bad judges needs to be sued in Civil Court.
are the judges paid staff?
Idk about this event specifically, but judges usually get paid in judge promos.
@@robertmonroe7930 not since the absolution of the judge program they don't