The Story of Trackmania's Most Controversial Map
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 เม.ย. 2023
- Last year I built a Trackmania Map with an incredibly difficult author time and posted it as a challenge to the community. The first five people who beat my time would receive real-life author medals and cash prizes. But, things didn't go according to plan...
Read Nadeo's statement: www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1ss...
You should watch me live: / wirtual
Main Channel: / wirtual
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#Wirtual #Trackmania #midori - เกม
12:32 I love how he just casually get's a top 3 time with regular Action Keys basically saying to everyone else to git gud
How does this have no replies
@@cleloid damn I didn't even realize I got so many likes
exactly. the guy is an asshole. puts up a challenge where you have to spend money on a keyboard then in the end he gets action keys taken away from everyone.
@@juanmendez3290 lol np
@@cleloid Because there is nothing to add or debate. It is THE perfect comment.
The butterfly effect of Wooting sending Wirtual a keyboard up to ice getting completely ruined is insane.
There was so much whining, they whined themself into much more full shit whining.
wirtual knew before osu knew
he wooted all over he place
And that's not the start of the story. The person that had the idea to send it has another butterfly story
more like domino meme
"It's cheating if you have to buy an expensive keyboard to complete the track!"
*Completes the track without it, faster*
I think it's more p2w and still people play these games
@@veen6847did you even read the comment
@@PotatoDead evidently, dont think so
*can you feel my heart +slow +reverb starts playing*
@@veen6847hey, are you stupid?
I do find it so funny that the community got so caught up in how to do things on a keyboard (in a driving game no less) that people seemed to forget that controllers with both digital and analogue inputs on the same device have existed for over 20 years.
Keyboard Users don't want to acknowledge controllers existing in general.
not to mention gamepad controllers that have built in macros, and customization are more common than the keyboards.
Nadeo made the mistake of trying to make a game that can use both digital and analog input, should've picked one or the other. Make it analog only and have digital as an inferior backup mode, or make it digital only and have analog inputs snap from zero to max values instantly with nothing in between.
@@techstuff9198 Unless when we complain about the auto-aim feature which is exclusively enabled for gamepad users in online shooters. Which is always given "zero-skill auto-kills" to opposing gamepad users.
And which always fails to reap the same benefit for gamepad users *on your team.*
@@klausstock8020 That's just Murphy's law in action.
What's impressive is that even after "cheating", he went back and set a new time that was still better than everyone else
The amount of pro player cope, seethe, and malding is insane in this
while personally i don’t believe it should be counted as cheating it is impressive to me that he basically said “y’all arguing over dumb shit just use a controller” and showed that it was possible without spending $200
@@starsidescav9487 Trackmania community really showed they can be just as toxic as every other gaming community.
@@starsidescav9487 is that all the vocabulary you know?
@Jonontoast Yea except it isn't cheating
The funniest thing about this entire thing is that as much as people complained that you had to buy a $200 keyboard to compete, the fastest way was by using an input device that most players use
i have an example for you. picture the current summer 2023 campain, map 02. you play ranked and lets say this noslide at the first turn would be possible with a 34% steering. you are on a controller and have to carefully steer to hit this noslide while your opponent on the keyboard only press 1 button to noslide this turn. he will have the upper hand in this rank match becouse with his action key its way easyer to hit this noslide turn than on the controller where you manualy have to steer and feel the car if its about to slide or not. it is impossible with a controller to hit this turn over and over and over again becouse its not like with an action key where the mashine does all the work for you. now tell me again its not an unfair advantage.
@@colymoli4311 That would be a good example if the keyboard and perfect controller input was equally fast, but in this case the controller was faster meaning it had the advantage no matter how easy it is on keyboard
I will say that I agree that you should never be able to do what he could on the analog keyboard. Just funny how the superior input device was not the one people were mad about
thats a fair point until you remember the entire part where he mentioned DXTweak. Allowing the controller to also just hold 100% and get the same % steering as the KB player.@@colymoli4311
You can also use notched controllers so don't act like there aren't ways to get better control on controller @colymoli4311
@@colymoli4311 Except that's not a feature exclusive to keyboards, or even a specific keyboard. Anybody could use software to optimize a run. There's even a speedrun category for that: Tool Assisted Speedrun (TAS).
Just allow custom action keys to be set within trackmania itself. It solves the price barrier and lets everyone be happy with ice and bobsleigh
Fr
fr its the easiest and most obvious solution
it would be legal to use than yes, but is this what we want? to be able to press 1 button and you are automaticly fast and this 100% consistand? yes a controller or even better a steering wheel can adcheve this level but not at 100% conistancy. you still have the "human factor" in inperfection. and machine support will ruin a compettetive game. i tryed to use steering wheel by myself to see how its like, and no i can not hit 43 or 20 or whatever steering % every single time on point. its impossible for a human to be as consitand like a machine
@@colymoli4311 Then let the author set the custom key. Make action key 6 bound to the author custom key
@@colymoli4311 Okay so, either we allow it and people on KB get more consistency but still lower theoretical limit than controller (changing speed gradually mid turn is optimal), OR, KB is just outright worse in every conceivable way due to the fact it cannot be precise AND cannot change gradually during the turn. The only thing this does it level the playing field. I'd say it's like how controller players in shooters get a bit of aim assist to compensate for their undeniable disadvantage, but we know how controversial that one is.
Its insane to me that the answer was decided to be "remove things" instead of "make it so action keys are cofigurable in game"
Yeah, but custom action keys are kind bs tho, with a controller it at least takes skill to hit optimal percentages. And they ruled that they are now dissallowed anyways
You know it's an authentic Wirtual run when you can hear the key smashing in the background
I feel like it would be weird if we didn’t. Would raise red flags lol.
Every faked run has keyboard sounds tho.... So your reasoning isn't exactly solid
Honestly thats the best part :)
@@Daveeeeeeyhowyoudoing the comment has nothing to do with whether Wirtual cheated or not, we're just used to hearing his keyboard when he plays trackmania
@@ziwuri Yeah.
Spamiej must be getting a panic attack every time Midori is mentioned.
@@Spammiej 😡😱😤🤬😨😧😾🙀
@@Spammiej lmao
Explain pls?
@@guillermojperea6355 Spammiej is only missing a few medals and Midori is one of them. It's impossible for him to get that author medal now after the changes
Wirtual redoing his map with no analog keys and still getting a better run than the other people is the best thing ever 😂
It seems easier to let the player set the action key values. When you play a map, you have the option to use the author's settings, or you can select a replay and use their settings. There might be some trolling potential if a player is externally modifying their values, but it seems like the community is already built on trust.
Best part is how Wirt essentially shut everyone up and beat the author time with a controller lmaoo
People still harassed him for months with 34% jokes tho. I didn't even know he beat it with controller till now, explains why he was so tired of them on stream at the time.
It was never about the time he set being too hard. If thats what you heard from people complaining you were listening to the wrong players. It was more about the fact that it was incredibly consistent compared to attempting it with a controller. You needed either a third party program or a controller to even attempt it. It would have turned the game into a custom AK haven, which most competitive controller players do not want to have even basic AKs.
@@larion2336 I would say he beat the record by simply using the analogue input of the keyboard without any macros or action keys. When you see the recording the sound and input speed doesn't seem right for a controller. Or he used his keyboard and a controller together like the other guy.
@@Intimacy. That's on Nadeo, not Wirtual. He was using a mechanic that they explicitly put into the game for the sake of trying to level the playing field. Now wether that made it easier to play M&K or not isn't up to him. It's on Nadeo.
@@timlolxP He was only using the controller on the bobsleigh. His speedslides were still tapping.
It sucks that we have to release documentary-styled videos on WirtualTV now that Wirtual forgot the password to his main channel. Hopefully he finds it one day.
ok bucky
wait I know this guy, isn't this the warlander pro Pog
He did WHAAAT ??
Wait did he really forget or /s?
Did he try to turn the Caps Lock off?
Trackmania has to be one of the sweatiest racing games ever created, and I absolutely love it.
The highly competitive aspects of it is what makes it so fun.
trackmania is definitely sweaty, but trials evo/fusion/rising are all sweatier
Not racing. It's a speedrunning game, like Dustforce
@@alexc4924 no it's definitely a racing game brother
It’s a game full of racists
Wirtual: _"-What started out as fun and unique challange, has eventually turned into Trackmania's version of Chernobyl"_
Also Wirtual: I'll F*cking Do It Again
First he makes Trackmania history documentaries of other people. But last year, he wrote his own history in the world of Trackmania.
Edit: wait, this video style reminds me of a certain Wirtual TH-cam channel
hmmm yeah, seems very familiar. almost as if it's the same person.
but it can't be right? it's different channels. silly me!
Record made after some LSD even make it better if it helps 😂
hmmmmmmm i wonder what you are talking about?
It's turtles all the way down.
If I had a nickel for everytime a Wooting keyboard caused massive drama in a game's community I'd have 2 nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice
What is the other game it caused a controversy in?
@@austinobambino1360 I think I read in other comments that it was OSU!
@@ak26k ah thx
@@austinobambino1360 it's osu. It sort of allows you to click faster than you otherwise could with a "normal" keyboard
Gaming companies are going to have to figure this out because analog keyboards are the future of gaming keyboards. They can't just ignore them or outright ban them.
Maybe it's because I've never played this version of Trackmania but changing the physics seems like such a weird way of solving the problem when they could have simply tried to improve the keyboard input to give more control by default.
It was a petty move. But that how people with little pp think so 🤷🏻♂️
It's absolutely iconic that you went back to default action keys and STILL smoked everyone else.
Wirtual was so proud of that “joysticks are the real action keys” line
I wanted to like this reply but i saw it was at 420 likes and I just couldn't do it
What I find funny about this is that if the perfect value had happened to align with 40% or 20% instead there would have been no issue.
I thought the solution was to be able to customize the % of the action keys instead of needing a special keyboard to do it. Like, instead of 40%, just go to the keybinds and change it to 35, or 32, or 48, whatever is needed for the bobsled sections.
No then keyboard would just be better right
Lmao
@@harpot678 Apparently it wouldn't have been. IF you watched the video you'd know that steering a specific amount and slowly steering less is actually faster than simply using an action key.
The only drawback there of course is that it's much more difficult to pull off.
@@harpot678 Not quite. As you gain speed through the turn, the optimal turning angle would change. If the optimal angle is say 36.4% going in, and 33.2% going out, through the turn the optimal turning angle will pass through all values on its way from one to another in a continuous fashion. In effect taken over the course of a full turn, the optimal turning angle, is really more of an optimal turning angle delta. A controller could match this theoretically perfectly, a keyboard only has access to a fixed number of keys, and as such only a discrete number of turning angles, In our custom example say 36.4%, 35%, 34%, and 33.2%. So one would need to switch keys at the correct timings, and yet there would always be some amount of error, however small. Controllers, as they are continuous, don't have this limitation.
As a person who only plays Trackmania on occasion Wirtual always makes it so interesting even if you aren’t a trackmania player.
How is this not a main channel video? The topic, and quality of the video is one of the best Wirtual has ever made.
Damn, editing is so nice. I wonder why this didnt go on your main channel. seems suitable.
yeah ikr
because he wants to do something really big for the main video because he didnt upload for a long time
@@komet011 but this is *very* similar to his previous cheating scandal videos, and they all went to his main channel. Personally i believe that Wirtual is the documentary channel, and WirtualTV is the gaming channel.
@@komet011 but that means it'll take even longer which means the video will have to be even bigger, which means it'll take longer, which...
the longer it is before he uploads there the longer he can stall the maid costume
I love how this is a 20-minute humblebrag about personally breaking Trackmania ice physics
imagine being so good and so influential that the devs have to make updates around you
Imagine if he won first place on a steering wheel controller
The amount of "pro" player salt if he won on a direct drive wheel would have been palpable.
"Wirtual can't win without his $1000 wheel base and carbon fibre steering wheel."
Kudos to Maji for decorating Midori! It's an absolutely beautiful track!
Maji did an amazing job!
I don't know where Maji got these decorating skills, but she outdid herself.
Simps
On the topic of physic changes making old records unbeatable, Super Mario Maker 2 has a simple but elegant solution.
When playing a level made in an older version of the game, it basically downpatches your game to match that version. Trackmania could similarly revert its physics to the version the the track was made with.
Honestly they should do this. It broke so many maps.
Yeah it’s funny cause you can kinda guess when a level is made based on the physics
That makes sense
Downpatches your game lmao
That is a viable option, but it takes a LOT of time to get working
The turning speed update for keyboards reminds me of Splinter Cell on PC. Usually like any regular console game with sticks, you just slightly tilt to move slowly, but the PC versions (under default controls) makes your mouse wheel a speed toggle between a few set states. Wheel it up to speed up till you max, down to slow down until you're the slowest possible tip-toeing. As someone used to console games all my life, it blew my mind having a consistent speed state without worrying about accidental reflexes making me fling myself too fast leading to me being noticed. It felt SO much more comfortable playing like that.
That's pretty genius to apply something like that to a racing game with Action Keys. Kudos to the devs there.
I have never nor do i plan to play Trackmania, but this video kept my attention the whole way trough, magnificent job documenting the story behind Midori, very good videoand an interesting watch :D
WRONG CHANNEL!!!
He dont want to brake 69 videos
Lmao
main channel has 69 vids, and with this vid this channel also has 269 vids so double whammy
Yes
Man lost his password
As an osu player, it’s interesting to see how how wooting keyboards have caused cheating accusations in multiple games, with osu’s case being rapid trigger to allow top players to exceed 300+ bpm, and trackmania’s case having analog keys to fundamentally change keyboard steering.
Well, in osu it's clearly cheating.
@@tryewa i dont think peppy is gonna ban it so its probably not
@@tryewa It's literally not cheating though. The equipment you use in OSU is a HUGE part of your skill level. Unless you make everyone play on the device someone will always have an unfair advantage. It's a game where ms matter, so the build of your computer technically changes it. So no, it's not cheating.
@@tryewa Tell me you don't play rhythm games without telling me you don't play rhythm games. The equipment you use literally determines your skill ceiling in rhythm games.
@@tryewaIt's not cheating bozo, try using it and let see if you reach 3 digit easily, you know that the people that using wooting are already at the game it's literally 99% skill and 1% wooting
Its crazy how long its taken to just have multiple keys for different turn angles in a keyboard car game. Ive been thinking of this for years.
Holy shit I actually saw that one coming. Have a Wooting myself (initial backer, so mine is a One, inferior to yours, but still nice, and actually fairly well supported), and with many games the dual nature of its input is made obvious by constantly changing button prompts between keyboard and controller.
The switching made me think of that and I thought "Yeah a Wooting would really crush that".
If at the end of the day, playing with a controller and steering correctly was faster than Wirtual's analog keyboard, that means people who accused Wirtual of cheating were just really bad at the game.
Other cheated records got beaten in the fair way too, should we just unban those cheated records then ?
This is the most retarded argument i have ever read.
"if a cheat gets beaten, its not a cheat" is basically what youre saying, but i bet every money on earth that you never came across this thought in the Video about Riolu, did you ?
They got skill issued, lmao
It's always the shit players that claim cheats, regardless of game.
blud pro players accused him what you waffling about
thats such a funy argument. its cheating in any game if you use extern software to gain and advantage. and what you say is basicly the other way arround. wirtual has to cheat the game to be a division 1 winner in cup of the day but other players are so far better and beat him even when he is cheating. he is symple faster than anyone else by just pressing one button while a controller player need actual skill to hold his stick in the exact position to gain speed. the controller is a human factor while the custom action key is mashine supportet and requiers 0 skill at all.
Oh man, I always thought it was unfair for people to give wirt so much flak for cheating because I was sure he didn't do it in bad faith and I had seen the post about how it wasn't outlined in any rule and they cleared their stance going forward. Now knowing that he set a new author time that was only about a tenth slower on keyboard and a time even faster on controller, people were coping so hard.
This sounds so insane and precise to beat haha I don't think I would have the patience for this. Though I do think it's cool how dedicated people were with it
How are custom controllers seen in the TM community ?
Because I'm guessing with a lot of ingenuity it could be possible to add "indents", bumps that you could feel in the x axis, right ?
Accidentally uploading a main channel vid to WirtualTV
Why is this banger not on the Main Channel?
The hell happened to the main channel in general?
@@joecerone WirtualTV is the main channel. Always has been.
Because it’s in a different style compared to his regular videos and I guess he’s trying to see how his audience reacts
He just doesnt wanna break the 69th video standpoint
69 on main 269 on TV so 2 69s lol
I think one of the main issues is that not a lot of people in the greater TM community watch Wirtual's stream, and it's a much more closed off sub community when Wirtual would think. I personally just play the game and watch his videos, so at the time Midori had come out I personally had no idea Wirtual was even using an analog keyboard or how they even worked and I think a lot of people were the same way since this was the first time analog keyboard news broke out beyond that twitch community and into the more general TM community.
"Midori is like Chernobyl."
30s later:
"So, I'm gonna build Midori 2."
If only they'd made old maps keep old physics so only new maps would be effected by physics changes (kinda like mario maker)
players: "CUSTOM INPUT KEYBOARDS ARE CHEATING, THE AUTHOR TIME IS UNFAIR AND SHOULDN'T COUNT"
wirt: "ok" **makes a no custom input record**
players: "aw sweet time to beat it with my custom input keyboard"
what?
@@robotm99 Think he meant people using DXTweak for controller steering values.
They might be different people.
Ah the classic "grouping different people together so I can call them all a hypocrite"
@@frazfrazfrazfraz Seems kinda relevant in this context though
I dont even play video games let alone a technical game like trackmania but i can't get enough of your videos. I'd take trackmania drama over tv shows any day
Wirtual/lolzeroedits I just want to let you know that I appreciate you using the Sly 3 Hazard Room music at 16:52. Idk if you have played the games or know the OST, but it is my favorite PS2 era series and you brought back so much nostalgia. Thank you.
The idea that using analogue input is on the same level as modifying the physics of a game engine is like saying "yeah this woman accidentally stepped on the heel of my shoe, so I stabbed her in the chest 47 times. Eye for an eye, ya know?" Glad that guy got banned lmao
It wasn't game modification, but a long-known bug which lets you carry reactor from a different part of the game. It's best not to specify further though.
@@sunderkeenin And you can still actually do this quite easily on accident.
Yeah ikr? We've had ways to bind keys to pretty much anything we want forever now. You don't need some special keyboard.. just one of many programs.
it’s crazy that you could accidentally cheat a WR lvl run on pretty much any map, but nadeo doesn’t care lol
To be faire to those players I heard that the reason they did it was to highlight the bug/cheat in the hopes that Nadeo would do something to fix it. It has been known about for a long time. I don't believe Nadeo has done anything.
I really like the approach with their Mario Maker Levels… Each Level has all the Physics and Bugs from the time when it was published / built. I think this should have been the way to implement it in trackmania too.
Considering how many surfaces and the complexity of physics in this game versus one like Mario, maintaining a large number of versions of all the code that runs the physics calculations would be a heafty task. Mario Maker was designed with this is mind, meaning the level physics was from the start seperated from the rest of the code so that the physics could be swapped out with relative ease. trackmania wasn't designed with that in mind, it's physics is programmed throughout many parts of the game, isolating it all so that a different abstraction could be swapped out would require a major overhaul of the entire codebase. Considering the different in complexity as well, storing a version of the physics would take up more space depending how it was done. While in principle the idea sounds simple enough, as a programmer If I was part of Nadeo and heard the suggestion we start doing that I'd be terrified because I understand the sheer scope of the work that'd be required to get that working, and when working on such a massive refactor on a system that is supposed to be deterministic, even a single small mistake in reorganizing the code could completely break replays and be a major pain to track down. If Nadeo makes another game in the Trackmania series, it'd be great if they designed it with this in mind from the ground up, but to retrofit it in would be a major headache.
@@swift8821 The storage space argument does seem empty to me, but the complexity argument is very real. Having versioned physics wouldn't be that hard if you implemented in the engine early on, but I would not be surprised if it was a very significant undertaking to try to implement into the game now.
That was Mario Maker 1 to be clear. in MM2 there's a bunch of broken levels from the last patch. I mean, the entire game is massively broken now thanks to the broken track glitch and the black hole glitch, but I meant unintentionally broken.
@@swift8821 video game size has genuinely nothing to do with complexity. It only really reflects the quality (and quantity) of the assets (textures, models, audio etc). The code that comprises any game will almost always be the smallest portion of the total size now that high poly and resolution assets are the norm.
Not true. Mario maker is flooded with literally impossible levels because they patch things out of the game. Levels keeping the physics of the time they were built doesn't help for anything that has been removed like phantom jumps, etc. It's also really annoying not knowing what state of the game you are playing for every level, things like p-switch timing is different depending on how old the level is and there is no way to know until you die which sucks in limited lives mode. Nintendo is one of the worst examples you could give. Mario maker 1 and 2 both have this problem.
I’ve never even played Trackmania and yet I found this absolutely fascinating
I would trust you with writing any esports documentary to come out. You are a fantastic content creator!
As someone who works at a real race track irl, the Dev teams approach to this was phenomenal. You can't make everyone happy at the end of the day, but you sure can level the playing field as the "sanctioning body" of the "sport"
they broke thousands of maps, and didn't fix bobsleigh or flat ice wiggles... the thought was there but their execution was tragic
@@robotm99 And given that, you can't ask for perfection unfortunately lol Like I said in my comment, you can't make everyone happy, but you sure can level the playing field :p ;)
@@robotm99 There's no way to completely preserve everything when making changes. Sometimes sacrifices must be made
@@-TheBugLord Mario Maker 2 disagrees. You literally CAN preserve the old.
@@combatwombat594 Nah, the status quo would have been better. As Wirtual pointed out, regular controllers are actually ideal for ice physics (although it requires far more practice). They totally broke the skill-ceiling. Nadeo's solution leveled the playing field by grabbing the ball everyone was playing with and taking it home.
This whole video made me look at my controller and think about that "look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power" line. Really though why are people nerfing themselves in a racing game by sticking to keys.
It isn't a nerf in a huge amount of cases, the consistency of a keyboard is extremely useful. Then consider that TM pros have thousands and thousands of hours on their keyboard, swapping to a controller isn't so simple
I still think the community could have handled this better though
@@chameleonedm So basically Sunk-cost fallacy is why these nerds all spazzed out about another piece of legitimate hardware was use to create a time that's was hard to replicate with their regular setup. Because you know what? A pro SHOULD just be locked to one piece of equipment for the entirety of their career; I was just thinking how unfair it is for golfer to use their driver at the beginning of a hole, instead of just using the far more accurate putter for the entire thing.
@@ownedmaxer607 you sure just ignored the first sentence of that comment, eh?
@@chameleonedm Can't you bind the binary inputs (dpad, buttons) on the controller in order to get both digital and analog inputs? in that case controllers'd give you the best of both worlds
@@imatreebelieveme6094you can, i play like this and it is awesome! brings a huge advantage for me.
It was amazing to see the dev team address themselves and the state of their own game rather than blame the community. Developers like that will surely last a long time in the industry, especially in a time where a lot of game companies refuse to communicate with any community member outside of top players/youtubers.
sadly they only really seem to communicate when it is absolutely necessary (like when there is a massive drama). after the ice update, the ice community wrote a ldetailed feedback document explaining what needs to be changed and all they received was silence from nadeo
I appreciate that this isn't clickbait, and it actually IS extremely controversial. Thanks for having integrity.
I honestly believe that, unless Nadeo starts to limit and prohibit specific input methods, things like this will always be a grey-zone. What's stopping someone from playing with a steering wheel and only turning to a specific point where they put a stopper on the wheel. Or someone using a Joystick with a book or something blocking him from steering further than 34%.
Until the day that Keyboard is the only allowed input method, there will always be pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages.
There already was a joke Cup of the Day where someone figured out a consistent strat that involved a controller and books. It just required a single constant steering input from start to finish. It was even after the Nadeo ruling, but because of that particular map and the jankiness of the setup, it was more on the allowed side of the spectrum.
People will always try to find workarounds. For example, when Path of Exile banned keyboard macros, players started using popsicle sticks to press 12345 simultaneously.
Limiting to keyboard is a terrible idea, and I’m a keyboard player.
I speedrun hollow knight occasionally, and that’s a game where controllers rule supreme. It’s not an exact 1:1 I’ll admit, but I can still imagine how it would feel for me if they banned keyboard players.
Doing something like separate leaderboards would be more understandable, but I think the devs really don’t want to do that. Hopefully they can figure out a compromise.
@@Magicannon_ That was a meme map that was basically just RNG, and the dude simply put a book on his joystick so he would get a consistent random seed for the map. It only really applies to that meme map, not normal maps
I feel like i should clarify further that i absolutely think limiting to only Keyboard would be a bad idea. But at the same time, in a competetive environment, there have to be ground rules and regulations laid out in such a way that everyone plays on an even playing field. Look at the fighting game community, where the so called "Hit Box" riled up controversey because it allowed for inputs usually not possible on the more clasically used input devices.
At some point Nadeo will have to take a stance what is more important to them. If it's the competetive aspect, then Input devices absolutely need to be heavily regulated and limited to prevent 'unfair' advantages.
The biggest L is not having two separate ice's and going forth only allowing the new ice on new maps, leaving the old ice maps intact thus not ruining thousands of tracks forever.
not exactly, bc the old tracks would still be breakable with the Action keys, therefore they leave people at a disadvantage
I wouldn't know how to come up with a solution though
@@doggo7078 I don't feel achieving even competition on a map style that's basically being abandoned really matters too much, could've just remained as it was.
It's not the ice that changed. It's the physics of the game.
@@Avalonians_ You don't know how programming and games work internally.
They could have easily added 2 seperate ice material types:
- Legacy
- New
And they could both coexist.
@@Walter_nadeo changes physics so much that having different physics for every patch would be incredibly wasteful. it works on games like mario maker because there's really only like 3 different physics there, but nadeo is constantly changing physics just a little bit all the time so i dont think it would work
damn. nadeo might be the only game company that actually understands its game and fanbase and knows both how to deal with issues within the game and how to communicate all of this with the fanbase. havent seen that from a developer studio in a while
Another amazing video wirt, and shoutout to everyone who recognized the sly cooper music in the background.
there ought to be a setting called "legacy ice physics" that can be toggled in the settings somewhere, only for maps published before the changes, or maps that explicitly change a setting in their metadata.
Make it hard, so that it encourages these old physics to go extinct, without leaving the old maps in an unplayable state.
Underrated comment. Similar thing happened in Diablo 2 in the early days, when a certain update to the game's balance would essentially destroy certain characters. More games should feature a modular physics system, where you could have multiple settings depending on a map or season or whatnot. Maintain legacy achievements and fix future problems at the same time.
I mean, Nintendo managed to do it. And they're Nintendo, famously awful at things like that!
The Action Key drama feels like when the NBA bans specific pair of shoes for giving the players some added bounce. The player didn’t technically do anything wrong, but they still got an unfair advantage.
Its one of those situations where using the rules to your advantage even if you disagree with them is hugely beneficial. It isn't cheating but exploiting something that has been overlooked. Completely different topic but I compete in armwrestling and there is a rule in the organisation I compete with where if you lift your elbow off the pad its an instant foul which means restarting the round. However people used this rule to their advantage because if they were losing they'd just foul to get another chance. Its not against the rules but is in bad taste.
I'm only 2 minutes in, but I gotta say - amazing work from Maji, this map looks amazing!
Reminds me of the "Hob" game, similar looking aesthetics.
I’m not a Trackmania player or game developer, but what’s stopping them from adding a key to enable power of turn to be on a scale for how long you hold a button… like you hold control and then left, and when you get to the power you want you could hold right
maybe the real author medal was the friends we made along the way
Poetic
Shurely
Congrats, Wirtual, you managed to change the rules of the game! that's a big and rare achievement.
Nadeo: "We want to remove situations that would incentivize the use of action keys, and possibly remove them entirely."
Also Nadeo: *Adds snow car and wood*
I know it's been a year since the update was made, but I think what made most sense was to round every input to the closest action key output
This way, regular KB players would have the same access to action keys as always, with each option in steps of 20%, and analog KB/controller players would have their 34% inputs rounded to 40% and so on
It's a good thing nobody was banned for custom AKs, and it's a good thing the issue was forced.
Part of the problem was definitely that the community didn't really think about it, but people putting off thinking about controversial issues and topics even with game-winning exploits is a common issue, so someone eventually had to become the face of that.
The saddest part of the whole situation is how thoroughly ice was butchered and how Nadeo failed so badly that wiggles are still the fastest way to go forward on ice. If they were going to butcher the surface they could've at least succeeded at what they wanted to do.
I remember playing this map on Track of the Day, and cursing the author. I was getting really salty, it's a hard map. Props to the players who took it on, and sorry to Wirtual for inadvertently cursing him. :^)
Nadeo seems to be one of the best gaming companies in terms of how they address community issues, and frankly, that's amazing to see
Well…this aged.
@@jonathanharsh7434 Context?
I love the way you use those awesome known soundtracks from different games in your videos
Instead of adding custom action key in game for everyone to customize whenever they want, Nadeo chose to ruin the whole ice physics lol
Yeah this is the clearly obvious best solution lol.
If they added that then controller would still be superior to keyboards.
So I guess their goal was to make keyboard and controller as similar as possible.
@@Jehty21 you just have controller set as either 0 or 100% (as soon as 1% is reached) and introduce customizable action keys for everyone.
@@DaftFader if they wanted to lose half of their player base they could do that.
in nadeo's own words "consistency is a skill" using ak to get consistency is not skill but just an extra complication to the games controls. they created the problem though when their physics engine reward controller inputs over keyboards. this is the ice we should have had from the beginning.
The best part is, Wooting keyboards are used in osu! for the top players (due to how the keys register) and there wasn't nearly as much of a backlash as in your case.
In osu it isn't an objective advantage though right? I don't think Wooting keyboards allow you to do anything you can't theoretically do on a normal keyboard.
@@unbeatable617 completely agree, you are at a huge disadvantage playing comptetive FPS games like Valorant or CS with a 60hz monitor or a bad mouse and keyboard, but no one is calling you a cheater for using a +$700 360hz monitor and the best mice or even the wooting keyboard, which also gives a bit of an advantage. Better gear is essential if you want to squeeze out all your potential
@@Bob13454 Due to how keyboards work (regular mechanical keyboards have a certain amount of pressure you need) it's a considerable amount easier to Stream (Tap 2 buttons rapidly) with Wooting, cause they are registering the key being pressed down regardless of how much. Thus you put less effort into streaming and get higher speeds.
@@Shirae so let's say you have a perfect mouse for 100€ , but the average player has a worse mouse, mouse input delay etc should be fixed?
With OSU , some people can't afford a drawing tablet so only mouse should be allowed?
But osu! never tried to make the game competitive for low-tech gamers. It were always the players with the best pad and keyboard that were winning the game.
Trackmania always wanted to make the game simple and playable for everyone.
i know nothing about this game but damn wirtual makes me want to delve into this. Spectacular content.
They really should implement that dashboard as an option! Best with percentage indicators!
I have to give major props to Wirtual for presenting this whole situation as objectively as he did here. Given that the vast majority of this mess revolved around his actions and the consequences thereof, his ability to document the events with as little subjectivity as he did must have taken a ton of work and restraint throughout the entire writing and recording processes. Just goes to show how truly gifted a caster Wirtual is that he can even birds-eye view this ridiculous kerfuffle.
It should be the base standard for society, especially given how it was part accident and using a technique that multiple community members had been talking and tinkering with for over a year. The disappointment (and in some sense talent to deal with) was the mob mentality reactions
Wirtual has built a great community for a lot of reasons, integrity is one of them.
scandinavians are build differently
I'm glad that he was able to shrug off all the hate. I remember some of the reddit threads from back then, there were a lot of people absolutely raging about this, demanding an apology, calling for a ban, saying he was a hypocrite for cheating after calling out Riolu, as though it was in any way comparable. I remember getting called a 'Wirtual stan' just for pointing out it wasn't intentional cheating
Ya what blew my mind was wirtual was open about this for a year apparently and still people are complaining because of only this event.
All of the controversy could have been avoided by allowing custom steering values in action keys.
But that’s clearly not intended by the game which has set action keys
@@default0467 no OC is saying that Nadeo should've allowed players to edit the values of the 5 action keys in the menus.
@@Schmaglow I guess that is also not intended
@@Schmaglow OC 2 is saying that it probably shouldn't be allowed since that clearly was not intended by the game which has set action keys.
I mean, true, the game has 4 buttons you could put action keys on a controller aswell if you messed around with key mapping. But nadeo is against rewarding the player for a complicated setup because the game is about driving at the end of the day
The efficiency with which he paired the socks in the drawer was quite admirable.
The record is impossible without custom action keys!
Wirtual: *beats it without custom action keys*
Instead of banning "custom action keys" , they should have added them to the game. Instead of 100%, 80%, 60%, 40%, 20%, settings, just allow the player to set each action key to whatever number they want in their settings. So easy.
But that breaks the mindset behind the game even more, as they stated, having to get the right steering is a skill, not a 'predefined button'.
@@karremania Did they keep the 20/40/60/80 keys in the game?
You're right though. I think my favourite version of the game would be one where no action keys exist, and you can switch between keyboard and controller, it's pretty cool. However it's very hard to enforce a ban of programmed inputs, so it's fairer to just allow these kinds of settings to be made in-game.
Another solution could be to just disable controller-style analog inputs altogether. Just have all steering be 0 or 100 like it is on keyboard (so on a controller, touching it a tiny bit in one direction would move it to 100 in that direction, and remain at 100 no matter how far you move it further in that direction)
You essentially made trackmania exactly like real life racing and it made everyone mad. xD
Seems like the sanctioning body for TM didn't shoot their own foot though!
That's why I'm so torn on the eventual outcome (besides ruining the physics, they should have left that alone). Banning custom Action Keys keeps things more fair, but I appreciate the ingenuity. Allowing custom Action Keys and/or adding a built-in setting for them starts to veer into a "car setup" territory that I don't think TM players want. TM is supposed to be chill and accessible to 90% of players, I play it as my chill game to take a break from sim racing. I enjoy knowing that the times I'm chasing were set with the exact same car and it can't be changed; unlike iRacing where in some cars the setup almost matters more than the driver skill.
@@hydrochloricity they ruined ice.
That's the definition of shooting their own foot :)
@@Legend13CNS and also they didnt fix it. after like a week people discovered that ice wiggles are still a thing so is x% steering in bobsleigh. nadeo didnt achive crap.
@@hydrochloricity no they handled it how the maFIA should handle their issues xD
The alternative is simple, make action keys configurable for the player to assign desired percentage. Maybe keep the 5 fixed ones and add a few for custom values.
Underrated !
Love falling asleep for my mid-day nap with trackmania story’s
The real solution to the ice problem would have been to release some kind of preview or test version, even if only for a limited audience, so Nadeo could get feedback from the community and iterate instead of blindly making an irreversible change to core gameplay. I don't even know what they were smoking, this is literally standard practice in the software industry, not so much in games maybe but I feel it could have been done here.
I feel like if they did go back then many people would also be upset to be honest
Love Wirtual. Made a dope map, incidentally didn't realize a mistake he was making, recognizes and accepts the mistake, realizes the whole time everyone was actually getting lost in the sauce, comes out of the sauce and has a nutty run. Just too awesome
I come from FPV racing sims where it's well understood that $100 analog devices are the meta. So it's super interesting seeing a game where that meta has not been established.
meta in tm is basically a controller with tall sticks and dpad mapped to the full steer keys.
I feel like the better solution to bobsled and ice physics would be to make it consistently faster instead of consistently slower, as to make older maps still possible
Honestly should've made this a main channel video! This was so well done and very interesting
this channel is now considered the main channel, he said it in a stream for a cup of the day
On a side note, I absolutely love the use of the Sly Cooper soundtrack in this video! Getting big urges to play through them again
16:45 Agreed! Haven't played these games in a while, but hearing Hazard Room got me instantly hooked in to hear the results.
Speaking of Sly Cooper, if you like achievements, the original PS2 version has some that a community made. You have to use an emulator and all that, which you can look up if interested, it's pretty easy to find, but it's pretty cool. The PS3 collection I think had some, but the more the merrier I always say. Don't think Sly 2 or 3 has cheevos made yet, though. But not everyone cares for that kind of thing, which is fair enough.
i might be a lil weird but these kind of videos are some of the most entertaining on yt
You could use the left and right triggers for steering. May be easier than joysticks. And Other Buttons for acceleration.
I didn't know any of that existed but it feels like I've been waiting for this video for a long time. It didn't disappoint.
I feel like allowing custom action key % in game would have been the better fix for this than overhauling the physics engine
cant wait to set up 2 hours per map to even be competitive. this fix is good for the game's longevity, you dont need a math degree to play, keeping it simple
@@foreverTM So make it an author set thing. Each map could have 3 custom action keys that the maps author gets to determine and set. Then its on the author if they want to use the feature or not. Anyone who plays the map gets to see what those action keys are and gets to use them if they want to, but can't otherwise customize their action keys for any given map.
@@nolanhartwick7184 just get rid of the need for AK altogether
@Stormy Games like in most racing games ? :D
@@_Juke_ But then you get to the same problem people had with wirtuals keyboard. In order to be competitive you need to use different hardware. Trackmania was designed to be good with both controllers and keyboard so they are changing game physics to accomodate that. Otherwise Wirtuals keyboard should be fully legal.
In most racing games steering wheel is the best option. But there is a huge difference between entry level thrustmaster that costs 300$ and a full sim setup that can cost couple of thousand.
Maybe the real action keys were the joysticks we made along the way
you are really good at making videos they're so fun to watch
This is the most Meta video ever. The Trackmania history channel makes a history video about the history of his own track and controversies
- Creates map as a fun challenge offering both cash and real life prizes, just for the sake of the Trackmania community
- Trackmania community says Wirtual must be banned because he used a controversial, yet not prohibited, way of making the author time hard as possible FOR THIS FRIENDLY CHALLENGE WHERE HE IS OFFERING MONEY JUST BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE IT
- ???
Idk if I need to play this game or be a part of the community to understand how in the fuck that reaction makes any sense lmao
It seems the community has grown more and more neurotic over the years.
yeah, people see him as a hipocryte after realesed video about his best friend cheating in TM and use it with his crying face as a clickbait to generate thousands of dollars :] and also by his own definition of what cheating means he basically knew that he done wrong.
Difference is that even before that DXTweak was a controversial and on the edge idea. And what he did is to the point similar but one could claim it is even worse, as setting your own custom action keys (prolly not only for this map) gives you even more control than DXTweak would, also due to his setup he does not get the drawback of this tool.
Also TM TOS clearly states that usage of external tools to gain advantage over player not using these tools is prohibited. All and all he is lucky not to be banned, and no matter if this would happen on Midori or someday along the path, if people would be forced to take notice it would spark controversy. Only reason it didn't earlier is due to fact that while being very good player Wirtual is still out of group of proplayers so in the way there was no harm done as none cared.
Also as comment above says, he made huge video about Riolu (before that his friend) cheating, and that video was unnecessarily spiteful towards Riolu, but Wirt justified that by "I absolutely despise any form of cheating", what would be a justification but than year later same guy who was extremely harsh on someone else cheating does go and push the line between what is fair and what is cheating.
@@zetsu12344 yeah, I dont care much about track mania, but I was checking the video and just thinking, how in the world do you think having a keyboard that can let you fully customize the % of how much you turn, is totally fair and legit?
Idc if he is a great person or what he does to do the community and so on, for me its clearly cheating, since you're having an advantage over most players that don't have that equipment. Reading the comments it seems most people are ok with it lol but I bet when they get melted by a strikepack in an fps game, they cry and complain. This is cheating and since he complains about cheaters so much, there's no reason for him to consider this ok. And I find the "excuse" of being able to still make a good time not using it, or that someone in a controller also did a good time, doesn't prove thats not cheating... he was still having a massive advantage.
@@zetsu12344 Bro stfu, Riolu deserved what he got, and the trackmania devs LITERALLY SAID that analogue keyboards was not cheating until they said so. Wirtual literally did not cheat at all. Riolu cheated in a way that everyone knew was cheating and the trackmania devs had said was cheating before Riolu got caught. Don't even pretend what Riolu did and Wirtual did are similar. Wirtual did something completely legal, Riolu knowingly broke the rules, rules that absolutely and clearly existed. Riolu knowingly broke the rules. Riolu admitted he knew it was cheating. Wirtual broke no rules, the devs even said so. That's like banning someone for using a shortcut on a track. Stfu
one thing that might help with the start wiggle on a controller is the arrow keys... when using the arrow keys on the left side of a controller they can be just as precise as a keyboard...
I kinda want to finally get this game and play this map it looks great man.