Bunch of people that know nothing about top level TM, (myself included), crying witch hunt despite the top 10 all agreeing that the inputs and lines seems sus.. almost as if the real witch hunt is from commenters like you huh@@ScrapyDo0
As someone who has no idea about any of this or who anyone is, i was trying to predict which of the players was a cheater, and then the third guy came onto the scene with the classic just-showed-up wr.
see this is my biggest issue within TM community, it's pretty much just a tight knit bros club it seems a lot of the time. like if somebody who hasn't chatted with the community or posted hundreds of records ever gets a record or gets into Div1 COTD they are automatically questioned by everybody and assumed a cheater. Like to them it's so unlikely that somebody has grinded away hundreds of hours just by themselves to get one singular record@@Joemamahahahaha821
@@BarackLesnar So the answer is no… it doesnt make it faked/cheated. If sometimes this does mean it’s cheating, and something it doesn’t, then it s a no. This one fact is not convincing in the slightest towards him cheating. Nothing in this video is convincing that he deserved to have his time removed.
I'd like to see proof that it is cheated rather than "prove you are innocent", what a fun justice system that would be... I mean the only thing we have is 1 instance of "questionable" input which while possible he cheated isn't definitive proof.
@@HXSKlmfaothey broke someone's gameplay down frame by frame, look at his inputs to the hundredth of a second, then removed their time because they didn't like it. But you'll say it "isn't the supreme court" to defend that? You sound intelligent.
This. I play the OG Trackmania games all the time, and although they're different from modern Trackmania, I can definitely set good times without having any activity for the past 10 years in modern Trackmania. I can definitely see myself grind the hell out of a race and post the record only when I've got a 1st place run. It's not even a very hard race. People like Wirtual think they're gods driving the stadium cars perfectly. Bitch please, try doing a perfect run with the desert car which bumps everywhere all the time in unpredictable way. Trackmania 2020 is far easier than the original games.
Gotta be honest, stuff like this makes me not want to improve at Trackmania. Random guy shows up and puts up an improbable time (that very likely might have been cheated, but not blatantly or verifiably) and because he's not a part of the clique it gets scrutinized until it gets removed based on one frame of input and a bunch of people who have skin in the game's hunches on having a different lucky line. Guilty until proven innocent by a council of people who have financial incentives to have you not be there seems like a bad system.
@@MudakTheMultiplier This is definitely not true. . . It is FAR harder to race on a keyboard where you only have an on/off switch and not way to be precise. It's like saying a controller is competitive with a wheel when it's just not.
It's not guilty until proven innocent, though. The input is considered not humanly possible, so that's enough to be proven guilty on it's own. It's more of a: "According to what we think is possible based on tons of data, you're out of line. Prove us we're wrong and you're welcome to have the record" Otherwise you can say that about every cheated record and make an argument that since a person didn't get caught red handed they automatically are innocent. It doesn't work like that.
@@rikoliaIt's not at all ridiculous if you take into consideration the fact that a minute change in controls can avoid a bug or set yourself up for a smooth line that is otherwise very difficult to achieve. In fact take a look at any bug exploits in this game and I bet you can't tell me 0.25 sec doesn't make a difference in any of those. I'm not saying the guy is guilty of cheating for sure. I'm saying the decision makes sense given past circumstances and the 'weirdness' of the lines and inputs.
@@abeoist I'm not saying 0.25 can't make a difference in a bug, I'm saying out of 37.94 seconds, there is 0.25 seconds you find suspect and it's not even the part he made a big deal out of. 0.66 percent. 2 years ago, guy sees a wildly flickering UI on a WELL KNOWN player for years and that needs months of investigation, careful consideration of every possible reason as to why that may be and several players coming out for having cheated the exact same way before they're absolutely sure that it was cheating. Now, you find ONE(1) flick on some unknown player, "ah that's good enough get him out of here!" I disagree with such measures and find it bull.
I dunno. To me, it looks like a player who's not quite as good at the game as the best of the best, but got lucky with bugs and such. Like the odd lines make sense if he's just worse. The odd input could be a controller glitch. In my mind, there's no way a slowed game speed or a tas makes that kind of input(It's too fast even for a slowed game speed, and there's nonway a tasser leaves that in. The run also didn't look tassed.) In my mind, the thing that makes more sense is that a player who's really good at the game, but not quite that good, started grinding the shortcut before he had the lines down completely, and just happened to get a run where everything lined up.
If he was trying to contest the take down I would understand that point, but he didn't even try to give an explanation after getting a world record... I think it was the right call
@@tigertech8865 Nah, I definitely think the mods were overeager on this one. Why should he be treated with this much higher of a standard of evidence just because he played a bit differently? Remember, the evidence is, "the lines weren't top player level", and "These two or three frames look suspicious". It wasn't even like the suspect frames were for a particularly important bit. It also cleared the competitive patch, and it's not like they have a reason to believe the patch may have been malfunctioning. Finally, they don't even have any idea of how he might have cheated, or even what was cheated. They really have nothing to go on, outside of suboptimal play, a hardware bug, and vibes.
@@DrDrao The conclusion is then that every single WR run that's been submitted that has a "full steer to one side, followed by instant steer to another side" have to be removed for cheating. That sounds really fun and I can't wait to see wirt crying about it.
i think that weird grass line is probably just like, their own strategy. if someone was faking a wr they'd probably try to make it look more legitimate / blend in more by following strategies used by other top players, but having their own method to get through an area also just makes sense. that weird controller snap is definitely suspicious but unless it's what actually lets the shortcut be possible it could just be a lag spike or similar, i've had tmnf get pretty stuttery for me in the past
Indeed. This stinks of them throwing a tantrum because somebody not in their little clic came along and beat them...and it never once crossed their minds that maybe its because he isnt doing the same thing as them is why he got the wr...😂😂😂
TBH making a controller press isn't like inhumane or something humans cannot do in like 1 hundredth of a second. Chess players play 50 moves long games in 1 second, in a mode called hyperbullet, and Magnus Carlsen makes moves with mouse in like 3 or 4 thousandth of a second. I personally make such moves in like Twelfth-thousandths of a second. If he was seeing my games or that of any chess player, he would also call them cheater, thinking making moves across a board in 3 thousandths of second isn't possible.
Lest we forget controllers are garbage, especially the bargain bin brands and they experience all kinds of weird outputs. This video was an exceptionally shit take from him.
@@KaavjeSahe "Magnus Carlsen makes moves with mouse in like 3 or 4 thousandth of a second." Absolutely not. Stop making shit up. The reason super GMs can play that fast is because they pre-move. The fastest recorded reaction time ever is .1 seconds. 10 times slower than the 1hundreth you claim, and 100 times slower than supposedly magnus lmao.
Consumer electronics also suck ass. Probably a bigger chance it was an electronic issue more than it was him cheating inputs during the easiest part of the run lol
It feels to me like a bunch of top players just didnt like a new guy coming and getting a WR with an unconventional racing line. There absolutely needs to be more concrete evidence.
Every game is now ruined by cheaters. Cheating tools are too easy to get now. It made me stop gaming at all, since its now impossible to know and im always suspicious of everything...
I'd run a TAS with the EXACT movements without that .01 snap right steer and see if it results in the same, or similar run. Would make a hell of a difference in determining how much that steering input actually affected the game. For all we know its a shitty controller (that, yes, can send false data to the computer, game, etc) and the dude has no way of proving how they did it and just, didnt respond because he knew he would get ass blasted because "oh surely because they can't provide definitive proof means they cheated". Just food for thought. ESPECIALLY if the only basis is "it felt weird" and they didnt use the same ending line, you literally said yourself that its entirely possible it was a "fight or flight" response after taking a bad entry line, could have absolutely been adrenaline from hitting a clean wall bang into a clean shortcut. Honestly, knowing whether or not every other input EXCEPT that minor right steer results in a WR run (assume they let go, and the "snap back" from the stick caused the controller to bug) is a HUGE determining factor and I'm honestly confused no one tried it.... Or they did, it DID result in a WR run and you just decided to not mention that particular fact. I'm not trying to defend the guy, keep in mind I do not care, but "it feels weird" doesnt exactly work in this case when you all are mentioning that it in fact passes the in game test AND your entire grounds for removing the run is 1 minor input that may or may not have actually affected the run. And your clickbaiting a quarter million people into thinking this person is a cheater off of a "feeling". If its cheated and it broke the in-game comp validation, fix the in-game validation, if its a minor, feasible controller glitch (phantom input) yall should AT LEAST do your due diligence in determining whether or not those inputs without the minor right steer give the same output. IIRC the TAS tools are locked down so would that person even have any way of saying "hey it was a controller phantom input, here is proof the run without that input results in a WR"
I did, it made no difference, it instead made the run even faster without that input. That input of that steering made it such that car lost connection to ground for 0.003 seconds and lost acceleration, if the same inputs were taken to account without that sudden shift, the run was completed 0.02 seconds even faster.
THANK YOU. There is no words for how much I agree with everything you said. I was getting upset watching this, Wirtual clearly doesn’t really get how an analog stick plays. The smooth movements he describes are when you tilt the stick to the top of its housing and use it to guide the stick for smooth steering, the sudden ones can be anything from very slight stick drift which the dead zone isn’t compensating for, or it could be a snap back. It’s not even impossible that it was truly just a precise nudge. There’s absolutely not enough evidence here to remove the record, it’s honestly disgusting. I really can’t add much to what you said, you perfectly captured my same objections while watching this. So refreshing to read after watching this.
I fully agree with you in normal world if I accuse someone from cheating I HAVE TO PROVIDE evidence to prove I'm right. What Wirtual is saying (and totally disgusting me) is that I can say that someone is cheating and HE HAS TO PROVE HIS INNOCENCE. How the hell is that guy supposed to prove his innocence? Shame on you Wirtual and all of those proplayers which (it seems) cannot loose againts someone or better said noone.
@@marekvojta9648 tbh wirtual is your typical eboy, lots of egotistic shit that you don't notice until you start noticing it and then you can't go back. he has good videos sure, and he's basically the only dd2 streamer on youtube, but damn i wish he were a more decent person
3 tenths is a lot in normal racing too. On a track where 1 lap is usually around 2 minutes for example, being 3 tenths slower per lap means you'll be almost a full second further behind every 6 minutes, and that builds up to a gargantuan gap very quickly. On some racing series, like Brazillian Stock Car (spec series with tube frame chassis and NA V8s on normal road circuits) qualifying times are sometimes so tight that the entire grid is less than 3 tenths apart
In other examples of being dodgy with inputs, which is what is being accused in this video, it’s not just one small blip but a pattern of behaviour over a number of runs and patterns throughout singular runs that leads to the conclusion that it’s more likely than not that the record was cheated. Using the information you provide on the accused history, let’s paint a picture. An old TMNF player, played it on release, submitted a few scores, but kinda fell away from the game for a long while, only to pick it up again within the last couple of years. They discover a potential shortcut that hasn’t been utilised in a WR record run on this map from other people posting about it, and decides to just sink some time into it to give it a try. They haven’t been religiously hunting the map and, while possibly aware of the optimal lines, hasn’t quite gotten them nailed down. Then one day, they hit a perfect shortcut and desperately try to cling on to the run, small mistake results in a sub optimal line going into that grass corner. We don’t know if that’s their normal line considering the lack of other replays uploaded, or maybe their trying to practice that part more to get it further in line with the optimal run, but whatever, the advantage gained in the shortcut is enough for them to cling on to the lead despite the mistake, and at the end they clutch and get WR. Realising they got WR, they upload it to the leaderboard via the official channels, and it gets verified by the official anticheat. From context clues you give, this individual is not active in the tmnf speedrunning community, not a discord member, not a member of your little clique. And because their not part of an unofficial community, their run gets scrutinised much harsher than anyone else’s simply because of “bad vibes” and “not being a known player”. Let me pause here, does this mean that for someone’s run to be accepted by the community, they must participate in stuff outside of the game itself? And why does the speedrunning community consider itself above the official anticheat? Doesn’t this situation by default mean every single run validated by this anticheat should be considered suspect as well since the community believes that the anticheat is not effective at catching out cheaters? Anyway. How was the runner contacted for comment? What means were employed to get in contact with this runner? You said the run came out of nowhere, so it’s safe to assume this person doesn’t have any known means of contact. Plus, this isn’t even delving into the material accusation itself. If I’m correct, the accusation is that the runner featured used illegal means to go from full left steering to partial right steering within .01 of a second, at that 1 specific wall bang. First question, do you know without any doubt he that the person was using or presenting themselves as solely using a stick controller, where such an input would be impossible? Is it possible action keys were being utilised in some way? Second, as others here have pointed out, can you be certain that there is no possibility that hardware issues such as stick drift cannot in any way be responsible for a momentary blip of weirdness in the logged inputs? Third, in the individuals previously uploaded runs, is there any evidence of similar discrepancies that may establish a history of potential behaviour that could reinforce the accusation being made here? And finally, do you think it is fair to require players to actively participate in a random online community in order for their runs to be accepted even after already being accepted by the official anticheat? Do you not think that this is a form of gatekeeping, where just because someone is unknown means that any records are automatically suspect? How can we trust that you and others in such a community aren’t using your influential positions to secure your own positions and keep away “outsiders”. This reeks of elitism and gatekeeping, and I cannot in good conscience support a TH-camr or a community that participates in such behaviour, to the point of believing themselves to be above the official systems developed by the developers of the game to ensure fair play. I can believe that if any other “more noteable” player had gotten the exact same run, people would see that it had been authenticated and just write off the blip and sub optimal line as being an unlucky bug and a small error that didn’t ultimately matter, and then go and continue hunting the map incorporating the new strategy and combining it with a more optimal start and ending. But no they would rather spend time and effort nitpicking and demanding that someone engage in a community they may have 0 interest in or knowledge off just to justify themselves when they were already vindicated by the anticheat. It’s very possible that they got that run, decided they were done and just moved on, completely unknowing of the shitstorm that would ensue. And finally, what’s the motive here? They uploaded a run, didn’t make a stink on TH-cam, Reddit etc on beating the record, just uploaded the run and move on, no attention seeking, no attempting to gain personal glory or praise, just beat the record, probably thought “oh cool, may as well upload that” and then moved on. Motive, means, opportunity. The opportunity is a free space considering it’s the bloody internet, but no motive has been established and no concrete means have been proven by the accusers, just vauge postulations about maybes or what ifs, nothing that could be considered beyond all reasonable doubt.
Not thoughtful and well said - stupid and ignorant is more like it. People cheat for all sorts of reason that seems ridiculous. And coming out of nowhere is not "elitism" it is sound logic. Theese guys have 1000 of hours, on single maps alone, and yet the anticheat is not reliable, it is made by a community member for christ sake, on a old af game. I dont know how they tried to contact him, but considering the massive cheating scandals as of recent this is very sus, and i think they made the right call.
So one input anomaly and a racing line in the final sector that you don't like constitute solid evidence of cheating? The former doesn't seem robust enough to be considered cheating and the latter seems like a preference issue.
@@cebulak941 It really is not enough, or at least it shouldn't be. There's any number of reasons it could've happened, and the guy probably just doesn't care enough to dispute any of it. A lot of people just play the game they like, without giving too much of a crap about what people online think or say. The likeliest reason for the anomalous input is probably a combination of keyboard and controller, both can be connected at the same time. Even a brush of the hand on the keyboard could explain the anomaly, as the inputs get confused.
@@krukblood-axe3649the steer wasn’t -65536 to 65535, it was -65536 to “analog input between 0 and 65535”. If his keyboard produced that, then his keyboard is not allowed to play on
Here is my theory that would explain the run. If Jules is using TAS tools capable of a save state it seems that the point where the inputs go crazy is where the save state is loaded. They probably were lightly steering upon loading the save state to try to get a better line without realizing it would show on the replay. It comes right after the wall bang which I assume is a point of high variance that probably takes a number of tries to get right, and based on other details it seems this is a somewhat inexperienced player that probably doesn't want to retry the run just to get a good wall bang when the shortcut is that difficult. So by loading after the wall bang the player only has to get a good landing for the shortcut and finish with enough space in front of the record. I can't really explain the weird line on the grass to dirt transition, but it is likely due to the players inexperience and some preference to the alternate line. I find this HIGHLY LIKELY to be cheated. The only explanation outside of a save state would be some alternate steering input. It seems Jules is using an analog input for most of the run but at the anomaly, they would have to switch from the normal analog input, to another input. For example going from using a controller joystick to pressing a keyboard key or controller button which would do a soft right input as seen. There are many other ways this could be done, but it seems odd to need a specific amount of right steering at that point in the run. I assume sticking to a normal analog input would not lose time compared to the inputs seen in the run so why would anyone need a specific soft right steering input like that. Seems really fishy and more complicated than the save state explanation. I don't know anything about Trackmania TAS tools but if anyone could let me know if they have save states that could be used in a run and pass validation, please let me know so I know that my theory might be possible. DISCLAIMER: I am not accusing Jules of cheating and acknowledge the possibility that the run is legitimate. This is merely discussion on how the run could have been performed and considers cheating methods as well as non-cheating methods that the run could be achieved. i am not a Trackmania run validation expert. These are only my opinions.
I dont think they have savestates in TAS tools but they can replay inputs in super speed to get back to the point of the track. That could be used. Safestates was my first thought to. Play until the wall bang and find the correct inputs get a good exit without much speed loss. Then savestates to avoid the landing bug in the shortcut and another savestate for the difficult transition to dirt. Other top players dont use his weird line because it tilts the car and you get a slow down. If you can safestate you can retry that section until you dont get a slow down.
@@jasonb6570 It does. I've had stick drift in the past in other games where the input change was instantaneous, for example I'm moving it to the left, but the input jumps to the right in a split second with no analogue curve. Really only happens with controllers that are old and used a lot tho, since the more common stick drift has a curve and only drifts to where you're moving the stick or drifts when the stick is idle. Anyways, I did really use to have a controller that had teleport like stick drift and it was very bizarre and annoying to me. No idea why it happens, but I assume if the stick wears enough, sometimes when you move it, it can touch the sensor on the other side and cause an instant teleport kinda like if you touch your phone screen with one finger and then from another place. I don't know why it happens like I said, but I know it can happen, so as long as there is no additional proof of this record being cheated, I am a firm believer it is fully legit
@@Unkn4wN_TMIt still seems really fishy, because why would you grind a record and then just ignore everyone, when your record is at stake. Its just weird
You don't beat a wr without playing everyday and if you're playing everyday you are probably getting top 10 finishes & posting them, talking to people in discords and having fun with the community. Of which none were being done
@@sebseb9890 you even said it yourself. "are probably". meaning you just acknowledged that not everyone does that. Being active in a community surrounding a game does not hinder your ability to play them well...
The non participation in the community and the weird grass line aren't proof, but they are suspicious enough to warrant a closer scrutiny of the replay. To me, if that's all there was, I'd call the record legitimate. However, the teleporting controller input is definitely closer to being proof. Enough, at least, to justify requiring additional proof of the record's legitimacy before allowing it on a leaderboard.
My old controller did something very similar to this because of a stick drift issue. Not saying that’s what it is, I’m very curious as to why they never talked to anyone about the record tho
@@brunch. It's like setting a world record in 400m sprint on a sprained ankle. Perfectly possible if your legs move fast enough. So who knows, maybe he did win a sniper competition with a crooked barrel. I just see it as an additional suspicious circumstance though
@@WadaMalone some stick drift can not exist at all except momentarily after releasing the stick as it rebounds to center. Some can only happen when the thumb stick rests a certain way and you can adjust it to where it'll stop completely. Some only happens when the thumb stick is stuck pressed down a little after using the button part and you have to pull it out to get it to stop. And as it has been pointed out stick drift does nothing (unless it is really really bad) as long as you're actively engaging the stick or holding it centered.
Anyone else remember the good old days when you needed actual evidence to get a run taken down due to alleged cheating? Now it seems any newcomer setting a record is automatically guilty until proven innocent. This dude got his run taken down over a different line and ONE suspicious input. One. His controller could have bugged and sent a weird input, among countless other rational explanations for that, but with the current paranoia and mob mentality running rampant in the community Jules was doomed from the start. This is just sad.
I am not convinced that any cheating has taken place. If your tool to spot cheats missed this and you cannot give any explanation of how he cheated then it doesn't seem fair.
Playing devils advocate for moment, that suspicious inputs seem like just letting go of the stick entirely and letting it bounce past the deadzone of the controller. I don't know if the reply would pick it up like that but its the only idea I could think of. I don't know if the run was legit or not but thats not for me to decide.
@@arkadyshersky8704 I think he said the interval for the recording was 0.1s, which to me sounds possible if its timed well. I didn't test it obviously, but even if I did it would vary controller to controller anyway.
A bounce would show differently. Thats basic physics. If it would bounce that fast from 100% to -25% or similar values, it would also need to bounce away from that -25% just as fast, as a controller stick works like a pendulum. However, we can see that input being held for a small timeframe with apparently perfect accuracy, if I understood wirtual correctly.
I think the important thing is to keep an open mind. This has not been proven to be a cheated run, it merely has unanswered questions. As such, the potentially reversible disqualification on the balance of probabilities seems right. If stronger sanctions were enacted, like banning him from uploading future runs at all I would want evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Personally, on a human level, I think it feels legit. But the question marks are reasonable too, and leaving the run as effectively "pending detailed authentication" is the right call by the community I think.
Modern analogue keyboards can instantly shift inputs I think, so that first point with the weird wall bang could just be a result of having a new keyboard.
Its possible,hard to say,if he wanted fame for a world record though,i don't think he'd silently post it without any explanation,i'm not saying whether or not the person is cheating but it is weird how that guy just randomly posted it and refused to elaborate further
Imagine that Wirtual must already be banned 1,000 times from Trackmania, but as the biggest content creator, nothing is done. On the other hand, he takes the liberty of suspecting others of cheating.
It's not foolproof that's for sure but just by that one input we can infer A LOT, how can you explain the controller like gradual steering inputs and then in contrast a pin perfect, non gradual steering input? It's physically impossible on a controller, well i at least I couldn't explain if i was the player trying to prove it as clean but I definitely have an explanation or two: first, he macroed that specific input at that exact time or most likely he recorded the run in slow motion AND macroed in the input
@@musicaddicted777 people deleted that weird input and the result are even faster than the uploaded one, and please google the impossible speed run of mario 64, some skip is impossible until a electron from space crashed your chips in the timing exactly u needed, thats just lucky
@@ladian5475maybe he didn't want to get that start bounce perfectly every run(that bouce is hard) and the first part of the run he feeds the game these inputs, and he edited the script in that part to get the perfectly bounce, and after that he plays normally
Threatening players that their record will be deleted if they remain anonymous is morally awful. Being anonymous on the web is a right, and you should not get punished for that.
I don't think they are wanting Jules to reveal their identity. From how I understand it, they want Jules to explain how they got inputs like that legitimately. Though I do agree with you, anonymity on the web is a right.
You can keep your anonimality and still validate your World Record. This is the same thing as if an olympic athlete is suspected of using illegal substances to gain an advantage, this athlete must validate their innocence before competing. I would rather trust veterans of this game than anyone else on doing decisions about this game. What are the chances that, on the run of your life, your controller decides to randomly "have a malfunction" and change direction in 1 frame, and somehow this malfunction only happens in this run, along the fact that many other known people of the community that grinded this record and never got any similar result.
Nobody asked for identity. Also, we're talking about a guy who regularily uploaded to the records 10 years ago. He's certainly no stranger to the internet. Wirtual, the leaderboards, and the community have been asking for an explanation as to how this run was achieved, and proof that it's legitimate.
@@sorrowandsufferin924 random guys asking to "explain inputs" is much more awful and unacceptable than asking for identity. who tf is wirtual or those (tm-exchange?) mods to debate with?? this continuous witch hunt is pure madness.
I disagree with the gun ho mentality within tm. If, given the replay and input data is publicly available AND the only thing you have is a gut feel after 1 year of breaking down the inputs then time to look closer at your values as a community.
I think it would help if you explained how he cheated cause saying the input is weird for this 0.01s window is hard to understand how they would change things for the course of the entire run if thats all still played manually. Are you saying its a TAS?
They dont know what caused it, which is the problem. Its a weird input theyve never seen before at a suspicious point in the run, and jules didnt even try to explain it. Someone said they could be using a program that drove the wallbang portion for them, which would explain the weird input. I dont know if its possible, but thats why jules needs to give an explanation
Specifically talking about the weird inputs, I had my steer left and steer right binded to my bumpers for a time. I would switch off of joystick for slalom turns. I think if you were using both at the same time you could get that input
The input would be left bumper (steer left) into the turn, with your finger hovering the joystick, and then once the wall bang happens you stop holding left bumper and start with small joystick wiggle simultaneously. I’m almost certain I could get my controller to do that input. Edit: input, not shortcut
@@christopherjohnson3464 You physically cannot press one key to the next on keyboard in .01 seconds. You don't realize how immensely fast that is. The only thing that can input that fast is a computer.
@@mp7311A month late to the discussion but yeah you can. Tekken, the fighting game, has a move that only comes out when you do a sequence with a frame perfect three button press at the end (down, forward, right punch.) That's three buttons pressed together within 0.016 seconds. The optimal follow-up that Kazuya pros consistently do for one move is to do a perfect electric. Doing a perfect electric is to do the full sequence (forward, down, down-forward+right punch) with one frame intervals (0.016) between each button press. So people can not only do two different button presses in 0.01 seconds, but differentiate between 0.01 seconds (pressed "together") and 0.02 seconss (pressed one frame after another).
Just going to preface that I don't know who Jules is, nor have I played TMNF in about 5 years since I can't get it to run on my rig. Of course, cheating is not to be taken lightly when it comes to competitive gaming or speedrunning, I wholeheartedly agree. However, the title is kind of slanderous. Cheating wasn't proven, only suspected. It was deleted because the legitimacy was "questioned", but not substantiated with proof. Sure, the inputs looks shady, but there could be an explanation to it, especially if it happens once in the entire run. I feel the word "suspected" should be added in the title. Just my opinion though.
Thing is, this is a year old stream as written in the description. Whether this means that new stuff came about it and Jules really cheated with proof, I don't know, and I honestly just watch Wirtual to fall asleep so I personally don't care, but I have to agree that the title seems very extreme.
Other games catch cheaters for even smaller cues, all for splicing. Be it everything looks normal but 1 input, or timer, or object is slightly off it’s invalidated. That weird input can only be explained by using a keyboard for a single split second to tap, and in tmnf keyboard is only 100% steering. So either that’s all controller/wheel (which makes that input impossible to achieve), or it was used with an edited steering value on keyboard for that 1 specific tap. Which is an odd place to remove your hand from controller, to tap a key, and then go back to controller. And even if that is what he did the edited keyboard value makes this run illegitimate
@@Slimmeyy to be fair Jules shouldn't really have to do that, as mods and other players should prove beyond a questionable doubt that the run was cheated, not the other way around.
@@Gwp_Gamin He did have to do that as an uncertainty is clearly shown in the video. That input is impossible to achieve on controller and wheel within such a timeframe, and the other inputs are all partial steering which you cannot do on keyboard.
This input is probably possible by trying to go to 0% steering by mashing the controller stick to the bottom or to the top, overshooting the value again : you can see he was still panicking with the steering after the wallbang, going from 90% steering to one direction to 10% in the other, and there is smooth steering in between the 2 snaps. (check at 9:57) The run should be considered valid
The video is really high quality and I agree with the final verdict of removjng it from the leaderboards, but i feel cheated with this title. 1. You didn't expose him. It was a community effort. 2.We dont know if he actually cheated. His case is a bit like having a trial and losing by default, because you didn't go to it. But that doesn't mean you actually broke the law, it just means that you lost the case.
2.We dont know if he actually cheated. His case is a bit like having a trial and losing by default, because you didn't go to it. But that doesn't mean you actually broke the law, it just means that you lost the case. Its more like losing because all the evidence points to you cheating, and you failed to offer any defence. Not quite the same as you're suggesting which is a loss by default in a trial which could go either way.
Yeah, I can see removing it from the leaderboards. That's the way they are supposed to work. You don't show records unless you are sure and whatnot. But saying it is definitely cheated? One weird input in an unhelpful place could be explained by other things.
I do feel annoyed that the title says HE exposes the cheater, because it wasnt just him (as you said) but i think the evidence is clear. Hes definitely a cheater.
@@xarin42 The problem is there literally isn't any 'other thing' which can explain it though. And its not just a 'wierd' input, its an impossible input. I feel like this is a problem of people not really knowing what is what and thinking that if you are ignorant, so is everyone else.
"he beat us good players so we got him taken off the leaderboard and he has not come back" yeah I also would not entertain a community that acts like that.
Just gonna throw this in there..... I'm pretty sure you drove multiple insane runs w/ your custom input controller so lets take down those off the LB. Then every other WR on the LB that is anon because you can't believe it's true. If it passes the competitive patch and nadeo doesn't ban the person. Leave it up and have some crazy person hunt the skip.
If the first left hold in the wallbang was made on a controller then if somebody taps right at the keyboard, the steering is cancelled and you are no longer steering thus it is not possible to flick into the right if the steering was started on a controller as we can see in the input display
Action keys don't exist in TMNF. I'm not sure how they performed their input, but going from full steer to 25% or so in the opposite direction in .01 seconds, for .04 seconds after that, is suspicious. I'm undecided on which camp I side with, however. If it's just one or two instances that seem a little bit suspicious then it's hard to say "cheated".
@@CalculatedRiskAK I thought it was legal in TMNF to use third party controller adjustment tools to limit steering etc. Wirtual has mentioned that several times already. Especially when talking about rally and snow car, he said more than once that it is the way how the respective communities drive. So "action keys" are only illegal in the stadium environment?
@@CalculatedRiskAK Dont forget the radio silence from jules. The tackmania community didnt want to delete the record, but they didnt really have a choice.
Interesting thing, you technically can achieve this same input behavior if you bind both sticks of a controller to steering and then holding one to the perfect angle, keep it there, then use the second stick to drive. This could be done with like a piece of paper or smth to hold the stick at just the right angle. IDK if this works in older track mania however I was able to get basically the exact same input on Trackmania 2020. TL;DR The game only registers a stick input when the input changes, if you bind both to steer and hold one at a specific angle, then move it slightly, you can teleport from one side to the other instantly. (clarification, I'm not saying the run wasn't cheated. I am just saying the actual movement is technically/theoretically possible to do without cheating)
Sure, but he also holds the exact steering value for a few frames when it switches - even if he is able to instantly switch steering, how could he hold it for a few frames exactly still
@meraldlag4336 like I said before, something to physically stop the stick from moving further. Outside of that, i don't find it particularly hard to hold a controller thumb stick at one angle for a few moments. Again, not saying the run wasn't cheated, I am just pointing out that the movement alone is possible without cheating.
@@PlayrTBH if theres something to stop it moving further, then how did he move the controller in the first place to achieve that spike? Maybe it's possible but I'm not sure if I would consider that cheating, using two input devices simultneously
It seems so whack that the moderators can just remove any replay and have the burden of proof of the inputs of a multiple year old record be on the player. Seems like they should rework their competitive patch instead of hunting players down like that.
No cheater was exposed here. Just allegations and your feeling that something isnt right. I liked it more when you had solid evidence. Youre right its sus, but no indication to outriught cheating. He could still use a key with a specific steering angle to get a nice wallbang (which is more grey area than actual cheats).
it’s not even like that to me it just seems weird and kind of suspect to not play for 10 years and then come back just to beat one of the most dedicated track mania players using a shortcut that nobody has ever done before not to mention the bizarre inputs on the wall bang part. not responding to anyone also is a big red flag imo
Just to weigh in my opinion here as someone definitely not knowledgeable in the minutiae of TMNF inputs and records etc - I don't think the majority of resistance to this video is based on the legitimacy specifically of this run, but the manner and spirit in which it seems Wirtual and the others dealt with it. I believe if there is a competitive patch that is meant to 'validate' runs, no run that passes that patch should ever be removed manually without some change to the competitive patch following immediately after. If Wirtual and the admins believe beyond a reasonable doubt that this run was cheated, no record posting should be allowed *full stop* until the competitive patch - the tool specifically created to ensure validation of runs - is reviewed and modified. If no flaw or weakness is found in the patch, then there are much bigger problems to worry about than the C02 record. Even if no positive change can be made to the patch, if they would require this player to provide 'evidence' to prove the legitimacy of the run, that evidence should be standardised and required of all players - no matter their tenure in the scene. Without that crucial step in the investigation, the moderation of the leaderboards is no better than it was prior the introduction of the competitive patch - a bunch of old school players, albeit incredibly skilled and knowledgable ones, deciding for themselves which records they like and which they don't. I wouldn't think that any of them, let alone Wirtual, would use that privilege to knowingly reject a completely legitimate run, but I believe that it would be just as negative an outcome as unknowingly allowing a cheated record on the leaderboard. To draw a parallel to athletics for example, imagine a brand new athlete runs a WR 100m time that noone thought possible - passing all drugs tests along the way. Would it be fair to expect them to provide additional evidence, eg their food and drink intake for the last month, without asking the same of all other athletes until the drug tests can be reviewed and updated if necessary? Whilst it's definitely an exaggeration of the situation, the concept of innocence until proven guilty is one fundamental to judicial systems around the world. Cases in TMNF records are of course more of a science than subjective and contextual legal cases, but I believe everyone would feel much more comfortable if at least the spirit is captured - of treating everyone exactly the same until they are proven to have cheated beyond a reasonable doubt.
The truth is the inputs appear to be inhuman; hes guilty. They gave a chance to prove otherwise. The anticheat is a bit lenient intentionally to not catch random people, but the inputs are obvious. Dude cheated.
@@brunch. If I tell you I can make a man fly with my mind and then show a sketchy video of a man flying are you going to take it at face value? No, I did something no one has seen before outside of instances where there was fraud. You'd ask for more evidence. Ask how I achieved it. Request that I explain what was involved in my ability to make someone fly. Here we have someone who used inputs that have never been seen outside of instances of fraud. Is it possible the inputs are legit? Maybe, but nobody has seen it. If the runner could show how those inputs may've occurred then it'd go up as a record. They asked for an explanation, details, anything, but got radio silence. In the past when people have come out with new input devices or legitimate skill they have shown it. Its why hand cams and audio with runs are required by other speed running groups. Here they have a set of seemingly fraudulent inputs and the runner went silent.
@@brunch. No, inputs similar to those have been seen before as was noted in the video. They come up when people play the game at slow speed and pass it off as normal. That's why the mods pulled the run; it looks exactly like cheating.
I really appreciate this thoughtful upload. In the last year I have married my wife, had children with her, and seen those same children graduate college. I was worried that my experiences were going unnoticed by my favorite TrackMania streamer. Thank you for the visibility, Wirtual.
If you lean your joystick completely to the left and then let go, how long would it take for the stick to revert back to the center position? Is there a chance that he let go and the momentum of the joystick caused the right input to be present? Does he have a custom or even modified controller with stiffer springs causing these inputs to occur? Just thinking out loud here
It was most certainly Riolu's 34th secondary account he had made just to spy on Wirtual, like the obsessed stalker he is, staying all day in his room, thinking only about Wirtual 24/7. Right?
Hm, I don't think it's exactly that, because there's a few weird things, and since it was not enough proof it was neither guilty nor innocent. It just was that more evidence was required, and it was never provided.
@@619tmFALCON there was no evidence in the first place, its all just profiling to have an excuse to look deeper, and still finding nothing, so he makes a video publicly calling him a cheater to instead drag his reputation through the dirt and ruin any come up he might've had.
Thats simple, if someone with a weird-ass history in the game has a suspected record, they should prove they arent guilty. If an olympic athlete is suspected of using illegal substances to gain an advantage, they must prove they are innocent, otherwise they cannot compete. Same logic here
@@mricci07 they don’t have weird history though. Why do they have to post records and participate in the community when you have clowns like virtual claiming everyone’s a cheater because he caught one 7 years ago
Bro what is wrong with the Trackmania community. See a new random WR and they go hunting for "strange things". Like.. chill out rofl. Controllers can malfunction from time to time as well, which would explain a "teleport" like this here and there.
I avoided watching this video because i'm starting to dislike the cheating scandals on this channel. But after I decide to watch it, I dislike it. I don't think there's enough proof the guy cheated and it's not a hardware issue (if you are really sure it is not, should have said it). And above everything, why uploading this now after a whole year if there's nothing new? After Riolu, TM community changed too much.
The only possible explanation i have of the weird stick movement is something called snapback, where you literally let go of the stick and the spring sprongs, causing the stick to go the other direction for a significant enough amount of time. Significant enough for it to be a problem in smash bros
I'd say this, while taking a different line, he also lost time compared to the standard line... I don't know, just feels interesting to cheat in a specific part of the map without gaining time, and then losing time later as well. Could he have been using macros to set up a button to a specific steering value? Is that allowed?
these situations are exactly what the riolu story creates. Maybe it was a hardware fault that no one knows how it happened, including the submitter. Maybe it was TAS. you might not know but one thing is for sure. were it not for riolu no one would feel compelled to, not only ask, but to press.
Keep in mind the input happened within the timeframe of 0.01sec. For reference it takes 0.15sec for the average human to blink. Normal human reaction time is 0.3 to 0.2sec, with some of the fastest recorded reaction times being around the 0.15 to 0.1sec range. This input in question is 10x faster than that. Without correspondence from the player, the tmx mods can't prove this input can be re-created. Jules wouldn't need to drive another WR, just show that kind of (buggy?) input is a normal or doable thing. Until they can be 100% sure I don't blame them for being overly cautious and holding the record in limbo off the leaderboards until they can be certain. If it turns out to be legit, then it'll be re-instated with no harm done in the end. If it is cheated then that likely means the competitive patch for uploading records will need to be updated to catch this kind of thing in the future.
@@konsth191 If we're playing devil's advocate to say there was no cheating, a lot actually. It would mean the input is either (1) a legitimate countersteer done at insane speeds or (2) joystick drift. In either case the player should be able to replicate the action/glitch in the inputs with minimal effort. The malicious alternative of course being something along the lines of an undetected slow-mo cheat, allowing a shift in inputs from 100% left to ~40% right in such a short timeframe.
People can absolutely move that quickly, although not consistently. Dashback in melee (without a mod that changes it) is a 1 frame input, moving the joystick pretty much from one side to the other within that time window. This could also very easily be a hardware error. The dude could have released the joystick, and for whatever reason during that time something went wrong, an anologue signal did a fucky wucky and some data was lost, or one of any other possible hardware issues. There is just too many reasons for as to why this happened. If it was more instances, the argument would be stronger. But it's just one.
@@Bourikii2992not quite. Moving a joystick that much in 1 frame is really, really hard. Much harder than a frame perfect input. But still feasible for a human to do.
Wirtual has and uses an analog keyboard and he's even been accused of cheating because of it. That combined with Wirtual being a guy that doesn't take cheating accusations lightly makes me assume Wirtual will have thought of it.
YOU are accusing HIM YOU have the burden of proof. YOU provide the proof. If him being silent is enough to make your claim wobble, then silence is his RIGHT, and YOU need to better reinforce your claim.
I think they were using either a macro or a save state to get to that point, because after the abnormal inputs he doesn't do anything for like .25 of a second (approximately) and then goes back to holding slightly right, which is about the reaction time of an average person, so I think he either used a macro or a save state and then had to react to the preformulated inputs / save state loading, which is why you see that slight pause on the inputs.
Oh. So there is a possible way to do the cheat. That is useful info. Would be nice if Wirtual had educated us on at least one possible way to do the cheat. Thank you for helping me better understand.
@@NicholasproclaimerofMessiah ?? There are a boatload of ways you can do that, but for very precise things like that you can do spoof mouse/joystick movements. Professional Valorant cheats work by having a "fake mouse" that you connect your real mouse into, so it can pretend to be your mouse instead.
At best, the run would have been tool-assisted, which would still make it an illegitimate run, but that in combination with a random WR with no PR progression that is the only run to utilize a shortcut with racing lines nobody else uses makes this run less believable. It's like using a chess bot, it looks legitimate to the untrained eye, but any experienced player can tell that something is off.
Yeah I'm thinking savestate right after the wallbang might be it. Anything else wouldn't make sense. Still odd though. One day I want a guy to come outta nowhere like this and be legit. Just like one record kinda thing.
Or just not uploading inputs to TMX. Hell I've never uploaded a single replay (or ever saved one) in the decade I played TMNF, since I just played online for ladder points or grinded to beat my own PBs. It's getting giga cringe that everyone playing well who's not engaging in the community is deemed a cheater.
Seems a bit salty to me tbh. They got beat by someone that isn’t in their “clique” of known players so just assumed he cheated because he did something different to them. He passed the patch so either find out how he cheated or leave his record, not really fair just to out someone as a cheater with 0 proof
it's not about it being inconsequential, it's just straight up impossible to go from steering full left to about 50% right in one millisecond AND hold this exact steering value without a slight deviation for some time on a controller, unless it was modded in some way. Both modding a controller or making a program to feed the game these steering values would invalidate the run hence the cheating accusation. When even a slight and unimportant part of the run is cheated you HAVE to at least ask yourself a question "if this one part is faked, what would stop a person from faking other parts or even the whole run?"
Huuuuuuge stretch to call this guy a cheater as it stands. Honestly the top TM players are so elitist these days, accusing anyone who beats them of being a cheater just because they use different lines etc. It validates. One buggy input is not proof of cheating. I understand being suspicious but calling them a cheater atm is unfair and you know it. But anything for clicks ig
how do we stop people offline creating a segmented run with key press recording on, linking them together, running with comp patch and then just pressing the macro and due to 1:1 probability in the game input (no rng) it works.
idk about this one man. seems like you got someones records wiped with no proof because they beat your friends time... >_> kinda scummy using your platform like this, especially having no proof at all.
Not defending him, but I'll play devil's advocate. I like playing games with an Xbox 360 controller on my PC. Since mine is old, the stick potentiometers are worn out and messed up. Occasionally it registers as dead-zoned, or even opposite direction for a split second while moving in games, so there's a slim possibility. My issue certainly makes playing TM with this controller a pain. In RPG games, my characters occasionally stop moving, or move the opposite way for a frame or two.
As someone who used to cheat, I also think he was cheating. Not proud of it now, but I used to write my own custom scripts for various games and I hit #1 on a lot of hiscores over the years. I had two ways, I would "hack" just by iterating over the screen searching for clumps of pixels to indicate something had happened in game, or in javascript browser games I would intercept the javascript before it reached the browser, edit values in my favor, and then pass the code through to the browser. Most games have server side checks to prevent this but there are still a lot of things you can change client side. A lot of things made sense to me with this guy. First off, I would only hack games I liked, and I would always have two different accounts, one of which was clean. My guess is this guy has been playing for the whole time but mostly plays on his "clean" account. The funny inputs are also something I would try to work around but sometimes get wrong. For example, games might check your mouse movement for things that look unnatural. So what I did is I read in my own human mouse movements, looked at how the input looked, for example the delay between events, and then I would "smooth out" my bots mouse movement by sending a bunch of similar events at the same interval. Just speculating here, but a bug that happened to me would've exactly matched his funny input. For example... say my starting mouse location was x:0, y:0 and I needed to move to x:100, y:100 in 200ms. I'd run an equation that would give me a smooth sequence of mouse movements for each time interval, with a lot of randomness and other tricks (too much to say here). One bug though is if say I needed to get to the same x:100, y:100 in 1ms, just one timestamp? Well, that's what my program would do, and it wouldn't look very human. My guess is that's what happened to this guy - he was at 100% left and his program said "i need to instantly be at 19% right" or something like that, and so his code that would make the inputs look human essentially did nothing. Alternatively, another thing that might've happened, and this is probably how I would hack this game... let's say I'm pretty good at the game but not a pro. I would run the map up to the shortcut on my own, recording all of my game inputs. I'd store those inputs in a txt file where I where I can easily edit the values. Then I'd play those inputs back into the game but tweak specific values to try to get my desired outcome. Most important here, I would tweak it until I had a consistent landing bug (or not bugged? i don't actually play this game. a good landing is my point). Then, assuming the game is fully deterministic, which I think it is? I could get the landing 100% of the time and just try to play from that point on. Probably I would mess up and go wide like he did lol, but if I didn't hit the bumps, then again I could always just replay the run back to that point, knowing that if I didn't hit the bumps once then I'd never hit the bumps. His funny input might show up because he edited his human inputs in a way that looked really funny. Probably he was just kind of trying random inputs, and that quick 100L to 20R edit for some reason happened to work, so he kept it. The more I'm thinking about this by the way... Man, if I had a friend who was good at trackmania I think I could beat this pretty easily lol. Anyways, finally, he didn't respond to the accusations. Again I actually don't play trackmania but I imagine this world record is quite the prestigious thing? Almost any response from the guy could have validated his record. But he didn't respond. I also never responded or appealed when I would sometimes get banned. Actually, I even told a lot of people in game that I was hacking. I think the nerd in me loved the technical challenge of hacking games, but I also at some level wanted to get caught, because deep down I guess I knew what I was doing wasn't good and I was hoping the developers would catch me and set justice to the world.
I can easily explain how this is possible. It happened to me in different game. My RAM was fully and when I moved my steering wheel game did not recognised. When memory was working again my steering wheel was already in different position and this can result in this weird behaviour.
That steering input looks like if you're driving on a controller and your finger slipped off of the knob and wiggled the other way a little I think this is a little bit of a witch hunt, a guy got lucky, nothing looks wrong about that run, and you're turning Trackmania into a bunch of Elitists where nobody else is allowed to shine
I play on controller and I don't think that his joystick would go from full steering lock to 20-30% in the opposite direction in 0.01 seconds a more reasonable explanation would be switching from dpad steering to joystick but even then the timing is really questionable
Correct title: I'm trying to start another witch hunt.* Run the inputs, see if removing the "weird" / "fishy" input makes the run worse. Besides that, it's "innocent until proven guilty", not "guilty because mr. streamer says so, unless you prove your innocence". This doesn't seem like a genuine attempt at preserving the games integrity in any way. It's just a streamer on a power trip...
Buddy, its not like they believe that one input got them the world record, its that they know that input isnt physically possible for a human to do. Its possible that it was just a joystick glitch, but is also just as possible that the jules had a program drive him to the wallbang the exact same way everytime and then gave him control. Its why small, one frame inconsistintent inputs are important.
It feels unfair to proclaim the run as cheated without any real concrete proof. I feel like calling it unvalidated is fair but i dont thing its right to say cheated without sufficent evidence.
People and Trackmania asked for proof it wasn't cheated and they had no answer. It should be easy to show other runs you made while training, things like that.
@@delphzouzou4520 i dont disagree that its suspicious. However there's not enough proof to say they cheated. Just because they didn't prove their legitimacy doesn't mean they are cheating. I think labeling the person a cheater is unfair, even if they are highly suspicious. I dont even disagree with removing the time, they had ample time to help the investigation.
@@Piman1607But there _is_ enough proof. As stated in the video, that series of inputs is not humanly possible if all you're using is a controller. *Not humanly possible* . That's all the proof needed. Of course, there might be other technical explanations for why this happened, but in that case it is on them to prove it. And as mentioned, Jules did not offer any explanation for how these inputs happened even a year after being questioned.
I'm quitting this game. It was when they used his lack of response as evidence that did it. If I got a WR on this game, I would not have time to stand trial to a bunch of dorks who have time to go frame by frame through my record.
he actually had me until 4:55 ;-;
I thought bro was gonna call racehans or jan a cheater 💀
Yeah I was worried for a sec but no way that’d be second channel content
@@IzzyIsntReal And would probably not be called "I Exposed Another Trackmania Cheater", more like "I Exposed The Second Biggest Trackmania Cheater"
Racehans is my goat I was so scared that wirtual was gonna say it was him
That would have been a huge plot twist.
Bro I was thinking the same thing, like, you aren't gonna somehow drop the nuke that racehans or Jan is a cheater right?
Nope, just some random person
Why do Riolu jokes never get old?
They age in slow motion
cringe
@@vitorrodriguez4278 So is cheating for a decade for profit.
Ok that joke wasn’t half bad. Ngl it would have made me chuckle if I had been in a better mood.
L+ratio@@vitorrodriguez4278
don’t listen to the haters i actually laughed at this
PSA: It's not about 92BOB, guys.
thanks
mmm its just another witch hunt
same Witch hunt though.
Dammit alright thanks
Bunch of people that know nothing about top level TM, (myself included), crying witch hunt despite the top 10 all agreeing that the inputs and lines seems sus.. almost as if the real witch hunt is from commenters like you huh@@ScrapyDo0
ngl i was SUPER freaking scared that RaceHans was the "cheater" in question the first few minutes of this upload... 😭😭
Same
Same. I was like "Brooooo please no!"
He is Cheat wait 3 month
@@HerrmannAusHH first of all, get some bitc- i mean grammar lessons
second of all, any proof that he's cheating?
That would have for SURE been a main channel vid, if at all
After 3 years I still can not belive it that tortugo is Adam Kajumi
yeah he got worse and worse over time
ong
it really is tragic
Brother I had no idea. Because of your comment I learned he lived not far from where I grew up too. Crazy.
Yeah same, i also can't believe he left to become a casual influencer
As someone who has no idea about any of this or who anyone is, i was trying to predict which of the players was a cheater, and then the third guy came onto the scene with the classic just-showed-up wr.
Does that make it fake/cheated?
see this is my biggest issue within TM community, it's pretty much just a tight knit bros club it seems a lot of the time. like if somebody who hasn't chatted with the community or posted hundreds of records ever gets a record or gets into Div1 COTD they are automatically questioned by everybody and assumed a cheater. Like to them it's so unlikely that somebody has grinded away hundreds of hours just by themselves to get one singular record@@Joemamahahahaha821
@@Joemamahahahaha821sometimes. rarely will a cheater take the effort to fake practice and grinding. but when they do it's extra funny
@@BarackLesnar So the answer is no… it doesnt make it faked/cheated. If sometimes this does mean it’s cheating, and something it doesn’t, then it s a no. This one fact is not convincing in the slightest towards him cheating. Nothing in this video is convincing that he deserved to have his time removed.
@@Joemamahahahaha821 no, they can't say for sure its cheated, but it is suspicious to say the least.
When you started out only talking about Racehans and Jan, I went into despair mode wondering which one was a cheater.
same
wow he moved back to Norway, that's crazy.
He still lives in Norway. Definitely not Malta, who would want to live somewhere so temperate and sunny?
@@ethanharr4795 someone who cannot stand heat, like me for example
@@coaiemandushman1079this. Plus the air temperature is not the only thing countries could provide
@@Blackwing2345635 tru
Watch the end
I'd like to see proof that it is cheated rather than "prove you are innocent", what a fun justice system that would be... I mean the only thing we have is 1 instance of "questionable" input which while possible he cheated isn't definitive proof.
oh my god bro it’s trackmania not the Supreme Court, grow tf up
@@HXSKlmfaothey broke someone's gameplay down frame by frame, look at his inputs to the hundredth of a second, then removed their time because they didn't like it.
But you'll say it "isn't the supreme court" to defend that? You sound intelligent.
@ you think frame by frame is an extreme form of verification?? that’s one of the easier things to do lmfao
Why do we automatucally assume that that guys was not playing for 10 years? He might have been playing other Trackmania games rather then TMNF
This. I play the OG Trackmania games all the time, and although they're different from modern Trackmania, I can definitely set good times without having any activity for the past 10 years in modern Trackmania. I can definitely see myself grind the hell out of a race and post the record only when I've got a 1st place run.
It's not even a very hard race. People like Wirtual think they're gods driving the stadium cars perfectly. Bitch please, try doing a perfect run with the desert car which bumps everywhere all the time in unpredictable way. Trackmania 2020 is far easier than the original games.
This is not as important as the crazy inputs but I'm pretty tm exchange tracks all submitted records so he probably just had not played
@@ERNINTENDO”crazy inputs”? you mean the ONE flick?
Gotta be honest, stuff like this makes me not want to improve at Trackmania.
Random guy shows up and puts up an improbable time (that very likely might have been cheated, but not blatantly or verifiably) and because he's not a part of the clique it gets scrutinized until it gets removed based on one frame of input and a bunch of people who have skin in the game's hunches on having a different lucky line.
Guilty until proven innocent by a council of people who have financial incentives to have you not be there seems like a bad system.
What…?
Very based, imagin the clique rage at this rando to scrutinize so intensely. Seems desperate.
13:08 “If you want to try this never-before-done shortcut”
Me looking at my membrane keyboard that cost me $14: That's my chance to shine 😂😂😂😂😂
That's the great thing about trackmania nations forever, there really isn't an advantage with any input type.
14 Dollars on a keyboard? That's expensive! I got my... *searches for the brand* ISY keyboard for about 6.99 like five years ago.
@@MudakTheMultiplier why ? lol wont a keyboard that take 10 ms less to send input to your car be better ? and is there no steering ?
@@MudakTheMultiplier
This is definitely not true. . . It is FAR harder to race on a keyboard where you only have an on/off switch and not way to be precise. It's like saying a controller is competitive with a wheel when it's just not.
@@Delimon007 I know only of one game where the keyboard is MUCH faster than a controller or wheel and its in my name :D
The guilty until innocent approach, very bold
It does seem very cliquey. Unless you've been here since 2008 you can't possibly be better than me 😮
It's not guilty until proven innocent, though. The input is considered not humanly possible, so that's enough to be proven guilty on it's own.
It's more of a: "According to what we think is possible based on tons of data, you're out of line. Prove us we're wrong and you're welcome to have the record"
Otherwise you can say that about every cheated record and make an argument that since a person didn't get caught red handed they automatically are innocent. It doesn't work like that.
@@abeoist You have 0.25 seconds of "odd looking controls" and a weird angle being taken at a turn, that's ridiculous for an accusation.
@@rikoliaIt's not at all ridiculous if you take into consideration the fact that a minute change in controls can avoid a bug or set yourself up for a smooth line that is otherwise very difficult to achieve.
In fact take a look at any bug exploits in this game and I bet you can't tell me 0.25 sec doesn't make a difference in any of those.
I'm not saying the guy is guilty of cheating for sure. I'm saying the decision makes sense given past circumstances and the 'weirdness' of the lines and inputs.
@@abeoist I'm not saying 0.25 can't make a difference in a bug, I'm saying out of 37.94 seconds, there is 0.25 seconds you find suspect and it's not even the part he made a big deal out of. 0.66 percent.
2 years ago, guy sees a wildly flickering UI on a WELL KNOWN player for years and that needs months of investigation, careful consideration of every possible reason as to why that may be and several players coming out for having cheated the exact same way before they're absolutely sure that it was cheating.
Now, you find ONE(1) flick on some unknown player, "ah that's good enough get him out of here!" I disagree with such measures and find it bull.
I dunno. To me, it looks like a player who's not quite as good at the game as the best of the best, but got lucky with bugs and such. Like the odd lines make sense if he's just worse.
The odd input could be a controller glitch. In my mind, there's no way a slowed game speed or a tas makes that kind of input(It's too fast even for a slowed game speed, and there's nonway a tasser leaves that in. The run also didn't look tassed.)
In my mind, the thing that makes more sense is that a player who's really good at the game, but not quite that good, started grinding the shortcut before he had the lines down completely, and just happened to get a run where everything lined up.
If he was trying to contest the take down I would understand that point, but he didn't even try to give an explanation after getting a world record... I think it was the right call
@@tigertech8865 Nah, I definitely think the mods were overeager on this one. Why should he be treated with this much higher of a standard of evidence just because he played a bit differently?
Remember, the evidence is, "the lines weren't top player level", and "These two or three frames look suspicious". It wasn't even like the suspect frames were for a particularly important bit. It also cleared the competitive patch, and it's not like they have a reason to believe the patch may have been malfunctioning.
Finally, they don't even have any idea of how he might have cheated, or even what was cheated. They really have nothing to go on, outside of suboptimal play, a hardware bug, and vibes.
or maybe he just stopped playing and aren't looking at his TMX dms.
@@DrDrao The conclusion is then that every single WR run that's been submitted that has a "full steer to one side, followed by instant steer to another side" have to be removed for cheating. That sounds really fun and I can't wait to see wirt crying about it.
A run where everything lines up, from my casual trackmania experience, actually happens sometimes.
i think that weird grass line is probably just like, their own strategy. if someone was faking a wr they'd probably try to make it look more legitimate / blend in more by following strategies used by other top players, but having their own method to get through an area also just makes sense.
that weird controller snap is definitely suspicious but unless it's what actually lets the shortcut be possible it could just be a lag spike or similar, i've had tmnf get pretty stuttery for me in the past
Indeed. This stinks of them throwing a tantrum because somebody not in their little clic came along and beat them...and it never once crossed their minds that maybe its because he isnt doing the same thing as them is why he got the wr...😂😂😂
TBH making a controller press isn't like inhumane or something humans cannot do in like 1 hundredth of a second. Chess players play 50 moves long games in 1 second, in a mode called hyperbullet, and Magnus Carlsen makes moves with mouse in like 3 or 4 thousandth of a second. I personally make such moves in like Twelfth-thousandths of a second. If he was seeing my games or that of any chess player, he would also call them cheater, thinking making moves across a board in 3 thousandths of second isn't possible.
Lest we forget controllers are garbage, especially the bargain bin brands and they experience all kinds of weird outputs. This video was an exceptionally shit take from him.
are you sure, that it is without premives? @@KaavjeSahe
@@KaavjeSahe "Magnus Carlsen makes moves with mouse in like 3 or 4 thousandth of a second." Absolutely not. Stop making shit up. The reason super GMs can play that fast is because they pre-move. The fastest recorded reaction time ever is .1 seconds. 10 times slower than the 1hundreth you claim, and 100 times slower than supposedly magnus lmao.
After the infamous 0/10 yasuo power spike, we have the 10 years pause Jules power spike
💀
He is not a League of Legend Streamer, please go back to the shadow realm
@@raulmenraki what, people referring a different game on a youtube channel about a game? How could they?!
@@raulmenraki you must not be fun at parties
I feel like the only reasonable piece of evidence is the inputs. The rest are literally just happenstance
Consumer electronics also suck ass. Probably a bigger chance it was an electronic issue more than it was him cheating inputs during the easiest part of the run lol
It feels to me like a bunch of top players just didnt like a new guy coming and getting a WR with an unconventional racing line. There absolutely needs to be more concrete evidence.
It's kind of sad to see that the trust in the community has been destroyed.
Every game is now ruined by cheaters. Cheating tools are too easy to get now. It made me stop gaming at all, since its now impossible to know and im always suspicious of everything...
@@dotonthehorizon9620that’s an overreaction I think.
I'd run a TAS with the EXACT movements without that .01 snap right steer and see if it results in the same, or similar run. Would make a hell of a difference in determining how much that steering input actually affected the game. For all we know its a shitty controller (that, yes, can send false data to the computer, game, etc) and the dude has no way of proving how they did it and just, didnt respond because he knew he would get ass blasted because "oh surely because they can't provide definitive proof means they cheated".
Just food for thought. ESPECIALLY if the only basis is "it felt weird" and they didnt use the same ending line, you literally said yourself that its entirely possible it was a "fight or flight" response after taking a bad entry line, could have absolutely been adrenaline from hitting a clean wall bang into a clean shortcut.
Honestly, knowing whether or not every other input EXCEPT that minor right steer results in a WR run (assume they let go, and the "snap back" from the stick caused the controller to bug) is a HUGE determining factor and I'm honestly confused no one tried it.... Or they did, it DID result in a WR run and you just decided to not mention that particular fact.
I'm not trying to defend the guy, keep in mind I do not care, but "it feels weird" doesnt exactly work in this case when you all are mentioning that it in fact passes the in game test AND your entire grounds for removing the run is 1 minor input that may or may not have actually affected the run. And your clickbaiting a quarter million people into thinking this person is a cheater off of a "feeling".
If its cheated and it broke the in-game comp validation, fix the in-game validation, if its a minor, feasible controller glitch (phantom input) yall should AT LEAST do your due diligence in determining whether or not those inputs without the minor right steer give the same output. IIRC the TAS tools are locked down so would that person even have any way of saying "hey it was a controller phantom input, here is proof the run without that input results in a WR"
I did, it made no difference, it instead made the run even faster without that input. That input of that steering made it such that car lost connection to ground for 0.003 seconds and lost acceleration, if the same inputs were taken to account without that sudden shift, the run was completed 0.02 seconds even faster.
THANK YOU. There is no words for how much I agree with everything you said. I was getting upset watching this, Wirtual clearly doesn’t really get how an analog stick plays. The smooth movements he describes are when you tilt the stick to the top of its housing and use it to guide the stick for smooth steering, the sudden ones can be anything from very slight stick drift which the dead zone isn’t compensating for, or it could be a snap back. It’s not even impossible that it was truly just a precise nudge. There’s absolutely not enough evidence here to remove the record, it’s honestly disgusting. I really can’t add much to what you said, you perfectly captured my same objections while watching this. So refreshing to read after watching this.
@@giusepperesponte8077 unfortunately that's how it is. If you're not part of their best buddies discord club, you don't get to have a record. :/
I fully agree with you in normal world if I accuse someone from cheating I HAVE TO PROVIDE evidence to prove I'm right. What Wirtual is saying (and totally disgusting me) is that I can say that someone is cheating and HE HAS TO PROVE HIS INNOCENCE. How the hell is that guy supposed to prove his innocence?
Shame on you Wirtual and all of those proplayers which (it seems) cannot loose againts someone or better said noone.
@@marekvojta9648 tbh wirtual is your typical eboy, lots of egotistic shit that you don't notice until you start noticing it and then you can't go back. he has good videos sure, and he's basically the only dd2 streamer on youtube, but damn i wish he were a more decent person
1:50 „This is a full three thenth of a second fater than that“ might be the most Trackmania sentence i‘ve ever heard 😂💀
That’s a massive amount of time in trackmania
3 tenths is a lot in normal racing too. On a track where 1 lap is usually around 2 minutes for example, being 3 tenths slower per lap means you'll be almost a full second further behind every 6 minutes, and that builds up to a gargantuan gap very quickly.
On some racing series, like Brazillian Stock Car (spec series with tube frame chassis and NA V8s on normal road circuits) qualifying times are sometimes so tight that the entire grid is less than 3 tenths apart
I was gonna say, 3 tenths of a second are rookie numbers in f1 and motoGP 😂 (unless you’re verstappen😭)
TMNF is one of the most competitive games ever to not use milliseconds.
Atleast tm2020 changed that
In other examples of being dodgy with inputs, which is what is being accused in this video, it’s not just one small blip but a pattern of behaviour over a number of runs and patterns throughout singular runs that leads to the conclusion that it’s more likely than not that the record was cheated.
Using the information you provide on the accused history, let’s paint a picture. An old TMNF player, played it on release, submitted a few scores, but kinda fell away from the game for a long while, only to pick it up again within the last couple of years. They discover a potential shortcut that hasn’t been utilised in a WR record run on this map from other people posting about it, and decides to just sink some time into it to give it a try. They haven’t been religiously hunting the map and, while possibly aware of the optimal lines, hasn’t quite gotten them nailed down.
Then one day, they hit a perfect shortcut and desperately try to cling on to the run, small mistake results in a sub optimal line going into that grass corner. We don’t know if that’s their normal line considering the lack of other replays uploaded, or maybe their trying to practice that part more to get it further in line with the optimal run, but whatever, the advantage gained in the shortcut is enough for them to cling on to the lead despite the mistake, and at the end they clutch and get WR. Realising they got WR, they upload it to the leaderboard via the official channels, and it gets verified by the official anticheat.
From context clues you give, this individual is not active in the tmnf speedrunning community, not a discord member, not a member of your little clique. And because their not part of an unofficial community, their run gets scrutinised much harsher than anyone else’s simply because of “bad vibes” and “not being a known player”. Let me pause here, does this mean that for someone’s run to be accepted by the community, they must participate in stuff outside of the game itself? And why does the speedrunning community consider itself above the official anticheat? Doesn’t this situation by default mean every single run validated by this anticheat should be considered suspect as well since the community believes that the anticheat is not effective at catching out cheaters?
Anyway. How was the runner contacted for comment? What means were employed to get in contact with this runner? You said the run came out of nowhere, so it’s safe to assume this person doesn’t have any known means of contact. Plus, this isn’t even delving into the material accusation itself.
If I’m correct, the accusation is that the runner featured used illegal means to go from full left steering to partial right steering within .01 of a second, at that 1 specific wall bang. First question, do you know without any doubt he that the person was using or presenting themselves as solely using a stick controller, where such an input would be impossible? Is it possible action keys were being utilised in some way? Second, as others here have pointed out, can you be certain that there is no possibility that hardware issues such as stick drift cannot in any way be responsible for a momentary blip of weirdness in the logged inputs? Third, in the individuals previously uploaded runs, is there any evidence of similar discrepancies that may establish a history of potential behaviour that could reinforce the accusation being made here? And finally, do you think it is fair to require players to actively participate in a random online community in order for their runs to be accepted even after already being accepted by the official anticheat? Do you not think that this is a form of gatekeeping, where just because someone is unknown means that any records are automatically suspect? How can we trust that you and others in such a community aren’t using your influential positions to secure your own positions and keep away “outsiders”.
This reeks of elitism and gatekeeping, and I cannot in good conscience support a TH-camr or a community that participates in such behaviour, to the point of believing themselves to be above the official systems developed by the developers of the game to ensure fair play. I can believe that if any other “more noteable” player had gotten the exact same run, people would see that it had been authenticated and just write off the blip and sub optimal line as being an unlucky bug and a small error that didn’t ultimately matter, and then go and continue hunting the map incorporating the new strategy and combining it with a more optimal start and ending. But no they would rather spend time and effort nitpicking and demanding that someone engage in a community they may have 0 interest in or knowledge off just to justify themselves when they were already vindicated by the anticheat. It’s very possible that they got that run, decided they were done and just moved on, completely unknowing of the shitstorm that would ensue.
And finally, what’s the motive here? They uploaded a run, didn’t make a stink on TH-cam, Reddit etc on beating the record, just uploaded the run and move on, no attention seeking, no attempting to gain personal glory or praise, just beat the record, probably thought “oh cool, may as well upload that” and then moved on. Motive, means, opportunity. The opportunity is a free space considering it’s the bloody internet, but no motive has been established and no concrete means have been proven by the accusers, just vauge postulations about maybes or what ifs, nothing that could be considered beyond all reasonable doubt.
Thoughtful and well said.
Not thoughtful and well said - stupid and ignorant is more like it. People cheat for all sorts of reason that seems ridiculous. And coming out of nowhere is not "elitism" it is sound logic. Theese guys have 1000 of hours, on single maps alone, and yet the anticheat is not reliable, it is made by a community member for christ sake, on a old af game. I dont know how they tried to contact him, but considering the massive cheating scandals as of recent this is very sus, and i think they made the right call.
@@kwaizy1349 so what in this video convinced you he was cheating?
I agree with you 100%
Well said
So one input anomaly and a racing line in the final sector that you don't like constitute solid evidence of cheating? The former doesn't seem robust enough to be considered cheating and the latter seems like a preference issue.
I would even say the latter seems like some confirmation bias
yes its enough. he definitely cheated at the wallbang, probably a macro
@@cebulak941 It really is not enough, or at least it shouldn't be. There's any number of reasons it could've happened, and the guy probably just doesn't care enough to dispute any of it. A lot of people just play the game they like, without giving too much of a crap about what people online think or say. The likeliest reason for the anomalous input is probably a combination of keyboard and controller, both can be connected at the same time. Even a brush of the hand on the keyboard could explain the anomaly, as the inputs get confused.
@@RoachDoggJr435wall bang is one of the worst parts of c02
@@krukblood-axe3649the steer wasn’t -65536 to 65535, it was -65536 to “analog input between 0 and 65535”. If his keyboard produced that, then his keyboard is not allowed to play on
Thanks for the closure at the end of the video!
Here is my theory that would explain the run. If Jules is using TAS tools capable of a save state it seems that the point where the inputs go crazy is where the save state is loaded. They probably were lightly steering upon loading the save state to try to get a better line without realizing it would show on the replay. It comes right after the wall bang which I assume is a point of high variance that probably takes a number of tries to get right, and based on other details it seems this is a somewhat inexperienced player that probably doesn't want to retry the run just to get a good wall bang when the shortcut is that difficult. So by loading after the wall bang the player only has to get a good landing for the shortcut and finish with enough space in front of the record. I can't really explain the weird line on the grass to dirt transition, but it is likely due to the players inexperience and some preference to the alternate line. I find this HIGHLY LIKELY to be cheated.
The only explanation outside of a save state would be some alternate steering input. It seems Jules is using an analog input for most of the run but at the anomaly, they would have to switch from the normal analog input, to another input. For example going from using a controller joystick to pressing a keyboard key or controller button which would do a soft right input as seen. There are many other ways this could be done, but it seems odd to need a specific amount of right steering at that point in the run. I assume sticking to a normal analog input would not lose time compared to the inputs seen in the run so why would anyone need a specific soft right steering input like that. Seems really fishy and more complicated than the save state explanation.
I don't know anything about Trackmania TAS tools but if anyone could let me know if they have save states that could be used in a run and pass validation, please let me know so I know that my theory might be possible.
DISCLAIMER: I am not accusing Jules of cheating and acknowledge the possibility that the run is legitimate. This is merely discussion on how the run could have been performed and considers cheating methods as well as non-cheating methods that the run could be achieved. i am not a Trackmania run validation expert. These are only my opinions.
I dont think they have savestates in TAS tools but they can replay inputs in super speed to get back to the point of the track. That could be used. Safestates was my first thought to.
Play until the wall bang and find the correct inputs get a good exit without much speed loss. Then savestates to avoid the landing bug in the shortcut and another savestate for the difficult transition to dirt. Other top players dont use his weird line because it tilts the car and you get a slow down. If you can safestate you can retry that section until you dont get a slow down.
joystick drift its more realistic, and if he dont play for like 10 years...
@@ElQuintoVvJoystick drift doesn't account for the binary inputs we saw in that slow-mo.
@@jasonb6570 It does. I've had stick drift in the past in other games where the input change was instantaneous, for example I'm moving it to the left, but the input jumps to the right in a split second with no analogue curve. Really only happens with controllers that are old and used a lot tho, since the more common stick drift has a curve and only drifts to where you're moving the stick or drifts when the stick is idle.
Anyways, I did really use to have a controller that had teleport like stick drift and it was very bizarre and annoying to me. No idea why it happens, but I assume if the stick wears enough, sometimes when you move it, it can touch the sensor on the other side and cause an instant teleport kinda like if you touch your phone screen with one finger and then from another place.
I don't know why it happens like I said, but I know it can happen, so as long as there is no additional proof of this record being cheated, I am a firm believer it is fully legit
@@Unkn4wN_TMIt still seems really fishy, because why would you grind a record and then just ignore everyone, when your record is at stake. Its just weird
7:05 why does him not posting replays for 10 years mean he quit for 10 years? maybe he just wasn't posting replays... >_>
because this man just has a vendetta with all who dont play the game like the majority of players
You don't beat a wr without playing everyday and if you're playing everyday you are probably getting top 10 finishes & posting them, talking to people in discords and having fun with the community. Of which none were being done
@@sebseb9890 you even said it yourself. "are probably". meaning you just acknowledged that not everyone does that. Being active in a community surrounding a game does not hinder your ability to play them well...
The non participation in the community and the weird grass line aren't proof, but they are suspicious enough to warrant a closer scrutiny of the replay. To me, if that's all there was, I'd call the record legitimate. However, the teleporting controller input is definitely closer to being proof. Enough, at least, to justify requiring additional proof of the record's legitimacy before allowing it on a leaderboard.
Pretty sure he means quit as in quit being active and grinding the game. He probably still played it casually
My old controller did something very similar to this because of a stick drift issue. Not saying that’s what it is, I’m very curious as to why they never talked to anyone about the record tho
you can't set a record with a drift issue controller controller though
@@brunch. It's like setting a world record in 400m sprint on a sprained ankle. Perfectly possible if your legs move fast enough. So who knows, maybe he did win a sniper competition with a crooked barrel. I just see it as an additional suspicious circumstance though
@@WadaMalonestick drift has almost no effect as long as you hold the stick centred which most people I know that play on controller do
@@WadaMalone some stick drift can not exist at all except momentarily after releasing the stick as it rebounds to center. Some can only happen when the thumb stick rests a certain way and you can adjust it to where it'll stop completely. Some only happens when the thumb stick is stuck pressed down a little after using the button part and you have to pull it out to get it to stop. And as it has been pointed out stick drift does nothing (unless it is really really bad) as long as you're actively engaging the stick or holding it centered.
Anyone else remember the good old days when you needed actual evidence to get a run taken down due to alleged cheating? Now it seems any newcomer setting a record is automatically guilty until proven innocent. This dude got his run taken down over a different line and ONE suspicious input. One. His controller could have bugged and sent a weird input, among countless other rational explanations for that, but with the current paranoia and mob mentality running rampant in the community Jules was doomed from the start. This is just sad.
I am not convinced that any cheating has taken place. If your tool to spot cheats missed this and you cannot give any explanation of how he cheated then it doesn't seem fair.
Playing devils advocate for moment, that suspicious inputs seem like just letting go of the stick entirely and letting it bounce past the deadzone of the controller. I don't know if the reply would pick it up like that but its the only idea I could think of. I don't know if the run was legit or not but thats not for me to decide.
You'd still have a frame or two of the stick springing back from full left.
@@arkadyshersky8704 I think he said the interval for the recording was 0.1s, which to me sounds possible if its timed well. I didn't test it obviously, but even if I did it would vary controller to controller anyway.
@@zami001001 Fair point.
@@zami001001not tenth, hundredth. Replays are recorded at 100 inputs per second.
A bounce would show differently. Thats basic physics.
If it would bounce that fast from 100% to -25% or similar values, it would also need to bounce away from that -25% just as fast, as a controller stick works like a pendulum. However, we can see that input being held for a small timeframe with apparently perfect accuracy, if I understood wirtual correctly.
I think the important thing is to keep an open mind. This has not been proven to be a cheated run, it merely has unanswered questions. As such, the potentially reversible disqualification on the balance of probabilities seems right. If stronger sanctions were enacted, like banning him from uploading future runs at all I would want evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
Personally, on a human level, I think it feels legit. But the question marks are reasonable too, and leaving the run as effectively "pending detailed authentication" is the right call by the community I think.
Modern analogue keyboards can instantly shift inputs I think, so that first point with the weird wall bang could just be a result of having a new keyboard.
Releasing a key instantly shifts input, then instantly sending input that you have ready-pressed. I think you need to set it up in software though.
Its possible,hard to say,if he wanted fame for a world record though,i don't think he'd silently post it without any explanation,i'm not saying whether or not the person is cheating but it is weird how that guy just randomly posted it and refused to elaborate further
they are using a controller
All of the people saying nice vid after 30 seconds 😂😂
Nice comment
Nice reply @@cosmicwonderer6269
@@cosmicwonderer6269 nice reply
nice vid
They know🤷♂️
Imagine that Wirtual must already be banned 1,000 times from Trackmania, but as the biggest content creator, nothing is done. On the other hand, he takes the liberty of suspecting others of cheating.
Wirtual uses Macros in his run, and he accepted that also, shouldn't his runs be deleted as well
This video is entirely unconvincing.
It's not foolproof that's for sure but just by that one input we can infer A LOT, how can you explain the controller like gradual steering inputs and then in contrast a pin perfect, non gradual steering input? It's physically impossible on a controller, well i at least I couldn't explain if i was the player trying to prove it as clean but I definitely have an explanation or two: first, he macroed that specific input at that exact time or most likely he recorded the run in slow motion AND macroed in the input
@@musicaddicted777 Yeah but why would he cheat that singular, seemingly insignificant input? Genuine question I don't know this game very well
@@musicaddicted777 people deleted that weird input and the result are even faster than the uploaded one, and please google the impossible speed run of mario 64, some skip is impossible until a electron from space crashed your chips in the timing exactly u needed, thats just lucky
@@ladian5475maybe he didn't want to get that start bounce perfectly every run(that bouce is hard) and the first part of the run he feeds the game these inputs, and he edited the script in that part to get the perfectly bounce, and after that he plays normally
I was hesitant until the steering inputs
Man that is a weak arse evidence
and somehow, some way, your grammar ended up being worse. Imagine that.
Why would u cheat on this game when there's people who will study a frame for 3 hours out of pure curiosity. It will always end badly.
I don’t really get the point about his set up at the end. It’s literally slower than the normal set up so why would that be evidence he’s cheating?
def a bit sus that he didn't provide proof of this inputs, but there's no proof of cheating either, presumption of innocence prevails
not uploading for 10 years means that he didnt play TM at all for 10 years? interesting.
Threatening players that their record will be deleted if they remain anonymous is morally awful.
Being anonymous on the web is a right, and you should not get punished for that.
I don't think they are wanting Jules to reveal their identity.
From how I understand it, they want Jules to explain how they got inputs like that legitimately.
Though I do agree with you, anonymity on the web is a right.
You can keep your anonimality and still validate your World Record.
This is the same thing as if an olympic athlete is suspected of using illegal substances to gain an advantage, this athlete must validate their innocence before competing.
I would rather trust veterans of this game than anyone else on doing decisions about this game. What are the chances that, on the run of your life, your controller decides to randomly "have a malfunction" and change direction in 1 frame, and somehow this malfunction only happens in this run, along the fact that many other known people of the community that grinded this record and never got any similar result.
Nobody asked for identity. Also, we're talking about a guy who regularily uploaded to the records 10 years ago. He's certainly no stranger to the internet.
Wirtual, the leaderboards, and the community have been asking for an explanation as to how this run was achieved, and proof that it's legitimate.
@@sorrowandsufferin924 random guys asking to "explain inputs" is much more awful and unacceptable than asking for identity. who tf is wirtual or those (tm-exchange?) mods to debate with?? this continuous witch hunt is pure madness.
@@sorrowandsufferin924they don’t need proof that it’s legit. They need to prove that it’s fake. The fact that the run got removed is insane
"I really hope perhaps your wife is pregnant" -Wirtual
Removing the punctuation to change the context is a bit naughty ;p
I disagree with the gun ho mentality within tm. If, given the replay and input data is publicly available AND the only thing you have is a gut feel after 1 year of breaking down the inputs then time to look closer at your values as a community.
I think it would help if you explained how he cheated cause saying the input is weird for this 0.01s window is hard to understand how they would change things for the course of the entire run if thats all still played manually. Are you saying its a TAS?
They dont know what caused it, which is the problem. Its a weird input theyve never seen before at a suspicious point in the run, and jules didnt even try to explain it. Someone said they could be using a program that drove the wallbang portion for them, which would explain the weird input. I dont know if its possible, but thats why jules needs to give an explanation
They prob think it’s slow motion, like riolu
Specifically talking about the weird inputs, I had my steer left and steer right binded to my bumpers for a time. I would switch off of joystick for slalom turns. I think if you were using both at the same time you could get that input
The input would be left bumper (steer left) into the turn, with your finger hovering the joystick, and then once the wall bang happens you stop holding left bumper and start with small joystick wiggle simultaneously. I’m almost certain I could get my controller to do that input.
Edit: input, not shortcut
Yeah that’s what I thought- it’s a mix between pad and kb that causes it
@@christopherjohnson3464 You physically cannot press one key to the next on keyboard in .01 seconds. You don't realize how immensely fast that is. The only thing that can input that fast is a computer.
@@mp7311 If you were steering on the joystick already and then pressed a button on kb, the inputs from pad would be cancelled out
@@mp7311A month late to the discussion but yeah you can. Tekken, the fighting game, has a move that only comes out when you do a sequence with a frame perfect three button press at the end (down, forward, right punch.) That's three buttons pressed together within 0.016 seconds.
The optimal follow-up that Kazuya pros consistently do for one move is to do a perfect electric. Doing a perfect electric is to do the full sequence (forward, down, down-forward+right punch) with one frame intervals (0.016) between each button press. So people can not only do two different button presses in 0.01 seconds, but differentiate between 0.01 seconds (pressed "together") and 0.02 seconss (pressed one frame after another).
Just going to preface that I don't know who Jules is, nor have I played TMNF in about 5 years since I can't get it to run on my rig.
Of course, cheating is not to be taken lightly when it comes to competitive gaming or speedrunning, I wholeheartedly agree.
However, the title is kind of slanderous. Cheating wasn't proven, only suspected. It was deleted because the legitimacy was "questioned", but not substantiated with proof. Sure, the inputs looks shady, but there could be an explanation to it, especially if it happens once in the entire run. I feel the word "suspected" should be added in the title. Just my opinion though.
Thing is, this is a year old stream as written in the description. Whether this means that new stuff came about it and Jules really cheated with proof, I don't know, and I honestly just watch Wirtual to fall asleep so I personally don't care, but I have to agree that the title seems very extreme.
To be fair, Jules had an entire year to respond to any messages. He did not.
Other games catch cheaters for even smaller cues, all for splicing. Be it everything looks normal but 1 input, or timer, or object is slightly off it’s invalidated. That weird input can only be explained by using a keyboard for a single split second to tap, and in tmnf keyboard is only 100% steering. So either that’s all controller/wheel (which makes that input impossible to achieve), or it was used with an edited steering value on keyboard for that 1 specific tap. Which is an odd place to remove your hand from controller, to tap a key, and then go back to controller. And even if that is what he did the edited keyboard value makes this run illegitimate
@@Slimmeyy to be fair Jules shouldn't really have to do that, as mods and other players should prove beyond a questionable doubt that the run was cheated, not the other way around.
@@Gwp_Gamin He did have to do that as an uncertainty is clearly shown in the video. That input is impossible to achieve on controller and wheel within such a timeframe, and the other inputs are all partial steering which you cannot do on keyboard.
This input is probably possible by trying to go to 0% steering by mashing the controller stick to the bottom or to the top, overshooting the value again : you can see he was still panicking with the steering after the wallbang, going from 90% steering to one direction to 10% in the other, and there is smooth steering in between the 2 snaps. (check at 9:57)
The run should be considered valid
The video is really high quality and I agree with the final verdict of removjng it from the leaderboards, but i feel cheated with this title.
1. You didn't expose him. It was a community effort.
2.We dont know if he actually cheated. His case is a bit like having a trial and losing by default, because you didn't go to it. But that doesn't mean you actually broke the law, it just means that you lost the case.
2.We dont know if he actually cheated. His case is a bit like having a trial and losing by default, because you didn't go to it. But that doesn't mean you actually broke the law, it just means that you lost the case.
Its more like losing because all the evidence points to you cheating, and you failed to offer any defence. Not quite the same as you're suggesting which is a loss by default in a trial which could go either way.
Yeah, I can see removing it from the leaderboards. That's the way they are supposed to work. You don't show records unless you are sure and whatnot. But saying it is definitely cheated? One weird input in an unhelpful place could be explained by other things.
I do feel annoyed that the title says HE exposes the cheater, because it wasnt just him (as you said) but i think the evidence is clear. Hes definitely a cheater.
I don't know what part of "Literally biologically physically impossible inputs" sounds like "we don't know" to you, but please get off the Internet.
@@xarin42 The problem is there literally isn't any 'other thing' which can explain it though. And its not just a 'wierd' input, its an impossible input. I feel like this is a problem of people not really knowing what is what and thinking that if you are ignorant, so is everyone else.
"he beat us good players so we got him taken off the leaderboard and he has not come back" yeah I also would not entertain a community that acts like that.
Just gonna throw this in there..... I'm pretty sure you drove multiple insane runs w/ your custom input controller so lets take down those off the LB. Then every other WR on the LB that is anon because you can't believe it's true. If it passes the competitive patch and nadeo doesn't ban the person. Leave it up and have some crazy person hunt the skip.
If the first left hold in the wallbang was made on a controller then if somebody taps right at the keyboard, the steering is cancelled and you are no longer steering thus it is not possible to flick into the right if the steering was started on a controller as we can see in the input display
So actionkeys are not allowed? I don’t get it
Action keys don't exist in TMNF. I'm not sure how they performed their input, but going from full steer to 25% or so in the opposite direction in .01 seconds, for .04 seconds after that, is suspicious. I'm undecided on which camp I side with, however. If it's just one or two instances that seem a little bit suspicious then it's hard to say "cheated".
@@CalculatedRiskAK I thought it was legal in TMNF to use third party controller adjustment tools to limit steering etc.
Wirtual has mentioned that several times already. Especially when talking about rally and snow car, he said more than once that it is the way how the respective communities drive.
So "action keys" are only illegal in the stadium environment?
@@CalculatedRiskAK Dont forget the radio silence from jules. The tackmania community didnt want to delete the record, but they didnt really have a choice.
Interesting thing, you technically can achieve this same input behavior if you bind both sticks of a controller to steering and then holding one to the perfect angle, keep it there, then use the second stick to drive. This could be done with like a piece of paper or smth to hold the stick at just the right angle. IDK if this works in older track mania however I was able to get basically the exact same input on Trackmania 2020.
TL;DR The game only registers a stick input when the input changes, if you bind both to steer and hold one at a specific angle, then move it slightly, you can teleport from one side to the other instantly.
(clarification, I'm not saying the run wasn't cheated. I am just saying the actual movement is technically/theoretically possible to do without cheating)
Sure, but he also holds the exact steering value for a few frames when it switches - even if he is able to instantly switch steering, how could he hold it for a few frames exactly still
@meraldlag4336 like I said before, something to physically stop the stick from moving further. Outside of that, i don't find it particularly hard to hold a controller thumb stick at one angle for a few moments. Again, not saying the run wasn't cheated, I am just pointing out that the movement alone is possible without cheating.
@@PlayrTBH if theres something to stop it moving further, then how did he move the controller in the first place to achieve that spike? Maybe it's possible but I'm not sure if I would consider that cheating, using two input devices simultneously
@@meraldlag4336 It wouldn't be two input devices, its just one controller with both sticks mapped to steering.
It seems so whack that the moderators can just remove any replay and have the burden of proof of the inputs of a multiple year old record be on the player. Seems like they should rework their competitive patch instead of hunting players down like that.
If they can't explain it how can they add a metric to the patch?
No cheater was exposed here. Just allegations and your feeling that something isnt right. I liked it more when you had solid evidence.
Youre right its sus, but no indication to outriught cheating. He could still use a key with a specific steering angle to get a nice wallbang (which is more grey area than actual cheats).
If you see the control inputs, you see that there are some more anomaly’s so it could be his controller is bugged
wirtual cyberbullying everyone who is not active in the community is getting kinda cringe
This guy isn't active therefore cheater 🤪
it’s not even like that to me it just seems weird and kind of suspect to not play for 10 years and then come back just to beat one of the most dedicated track mania players using a shortcut that nobody has ever done before not to mention the bizarre inputs on the wall bang part. not responding to anyone also is a big red flag imo
@@masonfoster7954 real, you can't build up that amount of skill in just a few months
Just to weigh in my opinion here as someone definitely not knowledgeable in the minutiae of TMNF inputs and records etc - I don't think the majority of resistance to this video is based on the legitimacy specifically of this run, but the manner and spirit in which it seems Wirtual and the others dealt with it.
I believe if there is a competitive patch that is meant to 'validate' runs, no run that passes that patch should ever be removed manually without some change to the competitive patch following immediately after. If Wirtual and the admins believe beyond a reasonable doubt that this run was cheated, no record posting should be allowed *full stop* until the competitive patch - the tool specifically created to ensure validation of runs - is reviewed and modified. If no flaw or weakness is found in the patch, then there are much bigger problems to worry about than the C02 record. Even if no positive change can be made to the patch, if they would require this player to provide 'evidence' to prove the legitimacy of the run, that evidence should be standardised and required of all players - no matter their tenure in the scene.
Without that crucial step in the investigation, the moderation of the leaderboards is no better than it was prior the introduction of the competitive patch - a bunch of old school players, albeit incredibly skilled and knowledgable ones, deciding for themselves which records they like and which they don't. I wouldn't think that any of them, let alone Wirtual, would use that privilege to knowingly reject a completely legitimate run, but I believe that it would be just as negative an outcome as unknowingly allowing a cheated record on the leaderboard. To draw a parallel to athletics for example, imagine a brand new athlete runs a WR 100m time that noone thought possible - passing all drugs tests along the way. Would it be fair to expect them to provide additional evidence, eg their food and drink intake for the last month, without asking the same of all other athletes until the drug tests can be reviewed and updated if necessary?
Whilst it's definitely an exaggeration of the situation, the concept of innocence until proven guilty is one fundamental to judicial systems around the world. Cases in TMNF records are of course more of a science than subjective and contextual legal cases, but I believe everyone would feel much more comfortable if at least the spirit is captured - of treating everyone exactly the same until they are proven to have cheated beyond a reasonable doubt.
Good, smart comment.
The truth is the inputs appear to be inhuman; hes guilty. They gave a chance to prove otherwise. The anticheat is a bit lenient intentionally to not catch random people, but the inputs are obvious. Dude cheated.
@@brunch. If I tell you I can make a man fly with my mind and then show a sketchy video of a man flying are you going to take it at face value? No, I did something no one has seen before outside of instances where there was fraud. You'd ask for more evidence. Ask how I achieved it. Request that I explain what was involved in my ability to make someone fly.
Here we have someone who used inputs that have never been seen outside of instances of fraud. Is it possible the inputs are legit? Maybe, but nobody has seen it. If the runner could show how those inputs may've occurred then it'd go up as a record. They asked for an explanation, details, anything, but got radio silence. In the past when people have come out with new input devices or legitimate skill they have shown it. Its why hand cams and audio with runs are required by other speed running groups. Here they have a set of seemingly fraudulent inputs and the runner went silent.
@@brunch. No, inputs similar to those have been seen before as was noted in the video. They come up when people play the game at slow speed and pass it off as normal. That's why the mods pulled the run; it looks exactly like cheating.
I really appreciate this thoughtful upload. In the last year I have married my wife, had children with her, and seen those same children graduate college. I was worried that my experiences were going unnoticed by my favorite TrackMania streamer. Thank you for the visibility, Wirtual.
Thank god i thought it was racehans
me too. IO like racehans
If you lean your joystick completely to the left and then let go, how long would it take for the stick to revert back to the center position? Is there a chance that he let go and the momentum of the joystick caused the right input to be present? Does he have a custom or even modified controller with stiffer springs causing these inputs to occur? Just thinking out loud here
Well, now I have to get out of retirement and get this wild wr, just to get in Wirtuals videos
It was most certainly Riolu's 34th secondary account he had made just to spy on Wirtual, like the obsessed stalker he is, staying all day in his room, thinking only about Wirtual 24/7. Right?
Guilty until proven innocent... I guess a new approach...
Yeah this dude got cheated
Hm, I don't think it's exactly that, because there's a few weird things, and since it was not enough proof it was neither guilty nor innocent. It just was that more evidence was required, and it was never provided.
@@619tmFALCON there was no evidence in the first place, its all just profiling to have an excuse to look deeper, and still finding nothing, so he makes a video publicly calling him a cheater to instead drag his reputation through the dirt and ruin any come up he might've had.
Thats simple, if someone with a weird-ass history in the game has a suspected record, they should prove they arent guilty.
If an olympic athlete is suspected of using illegal substances to gain an advantage, they must prove they are innocent, otherwise they cannot compete. Same logic here
@@mricci07 they don’t have weird history though. Why do they have to post records and participate in the community when you have clowns like virtual claiming everyone’s a cheater because he caught one 7 years ago
Bro what is wrong with the Trackmania community. See a new random WR and they go hunting for "strange things". Like.. chill out rofl. Controllers can malfunction from time to time as well, which would explain a "teleport" like this here and there.
In summary: "His run didn't look like mine, so he must be cheating."
the 10 year or-so break actually counts in his favor, imo. childhood account turned into smurf account, that's plausible.
I avoided watching this video because i'm starting to dislike the cheating scandals on this channel. But after I decide to watch it, I dislike it.
I don't think there's enough proof the guy cheated and it's not a hardware issue (if you are really sure it is not, should have said it).
And above everything, why uploading this now after a whole year if there's nothing new?
After Riolu, TM community changed too much.
The only possible explanation i have of the weird stick movement is something called snapback, where you literally let go of the stick and the spring sprongs, causing the stick to go the other direction for a significant enough amount of time. Significant enough for it to be a problem in smash bros
"You found a slightly better way of doing this than us the 'pros'. Therefore you cheated."
Didn't it recently get proven that this was a genuine cheater and his runs were stripped because of it???
@@DiffYT Why do you keep commenting this was recently proven and never provide any evidence of where it was proven?
I'd say this, while taking a different line, he also lost time compared to the standard line... I don't know, just feels interesting to cheat in a specific part of the map without gaining time, and then losing time later as well.
Could he have been using macros to set up a button to a specific steering value? Is that allowed?
these situations are exactly what the riolu story creates. Maybe it was a hardware fault that no one knows how it happened, including the submitter. Maybe it was TAS. you might not know but one thing is for sure. were it not for riolu no one would feel compelled to, not only ask, but to press.
"2 years ago" 0:07
Maths doesnt math...
Desc:
"Yes, this was streamed a year ago..."
MATHS DOESNT MATH !!!!
bruh when he showed racehans my heart kinda dropped notgonna lie
He wouldn't make a video on his second Channel if it was hans
Keep in mind the input happened within the timeframe of 0.01sec. For reference it takes 0.15sec for the average human to blink. Normal human reaction time is 0.3 to 0.2sec, with some of the fastest recorded reaction times being around the 0.15 to 0.1sec range. This input in question is 10x faster than that.
Without correspondence from the player, the tmx mods can't prove this input can be re-created. Jules wouldn't need to drive another WR, just show that kind of (buggy?) input is a normal or doable thing. Until they can be 100% sure I don't blame them for being overly cautious and holding the record in limbo off the leaderboards until they can be certain. If it turns out to be legit, then it'll be re-instated with no harm done in the end. If it is cheated then that likely means the competitive patch for uploading records will need to be updated to catch this kind of thing in the future.
Frame perfect inputs at 60 fps are 0.016, this is literally done every single day by gamers.
@@konsth191counter steering is a reaction, unless you’re suggesting he randomly is steering the opposite direction for no reason?
@@konsth191 If we're playing devil's advocate to say there was no cheating, a lot actually. It would mean the input is either (1) a legitimate countersteer done at insane speeds or (2) joystick drift. In either case the player should be able to replicate the action/glitch in the inputs with minimal effort. The malicious alternative of course being something along the lines of an undetected slow-mo cheat, allowing a shift in inputs from 100% left to ~40% right in such a short timeframe.
People can absolutely move that quickly, although not consistently. Dashback in melee (without a mod that changes it) is a 1 frame input, moving the joystick pretty much from one side to the other within that time window.
This could also very easily be a hardware error. The dude could have released the joystick, and for whatever reason during that time something went wrong, an anologue signal did a fucky wucky and some data was lost, or one of any other possible hardware issues. There is just too many reasons for as to why this happened. If it was more instances, the argument would be stronger. But it's just one.
@@Bourikii2992not quite. Moving a joystick that much in 1 frame is really, really hard. Much harder than a frame perfect input. But still feasible for a human to do.
Ever thought about analog keyboards where you can steer like a joystick....sounds familiar? :)
Wirtual has and uses an analog keyboard and he's even been accused of cheating because of it. That combined with Wirtual being a guy that doesn't take cheating accusations lightly makes me assume Wirtual will have thought of it.
@@Drezaem55Buddy, why do you think I wrote "sounds familiar?" with a smilie at the end? I know that. But thanks for explaining my joke.... ;)
Nah, is record should be reinstated. Innocent until proven guilty.
Justice for Pelicans Jules who schooled the arrogant noobs with techniques they did not discover in decades of playing. "He must be cheating!"
YOU are accusing HIM
YOU have the burden of proof.
YOU provide the proof.
If him being silent is enough to make your claim wobble, then silence is his RIGHT, and YOU need to better reinforce your claim.
I think they were using either a macro or a save state to get to that point, because after the abnormal inputs he doesn't do anything for like .25 of a second (approximately) and then goes back to holding slightly right, which is about the reaction time of an average person, so I think he either used a macro or a save state and then had to react to the preformulated inputs / save state loading, which is why you see that slight pause on the inputs.
Oh. So there is a possible way to do the cheat. That is useful info. Would be nice if Wirtual had educated us on at least one possible way to do the cheat. Thank you for helping me better understand.
@@NicholasproclaimerofMessiah ??
There are a boatload of ways you can do that, but for very precise things like that you can do spoof mouse/joystick movements.
Professional Valorant cheats work by having a "fake mouse" that you connect your real mouse into, so it can pretend to be your mouse instead.
At best, the run would have been tool-assisted, which would still make it an illegitimate run, but that in combination with a random WR with no PR progression that is the only run to utilize a shortcut with racing lines nobody else uses makes this run less believable. It's like using a chess bot, it looks legitimate to the untrained eye, but any experienced player can tell that something is off.
@@NemuruYama Interesting. Thanks.
Yeah I'm thinking savestate right after the wallbang might be it. Anything else wouldn't make sense. Still odd though. One day I want a guy to come outta nowhere like this and be legit. Just like one record kinda thing.
You make me care about things I don't care about.
Wait a second...
Wirtual is Trackmania advertisement that works?
Same I way too invested in this discussion that Im not even affected by
He is literally the reason why I downloaded trackmania. No kidding.
@@lampoilropebombs0640 same
Someone beats a WR and the community bullies him back into retirement.
yeah at this point records should be uploaded with hand cam. like in speed typing or guitar hero
not playing for 10 years could easily be him playing on an alt account
Or just not uploading inputs to TMX. Hell I've never uploaded a single replay (or ever saved one) in the decade I played TMNF, since I just played online for ladder points or grinded to beat my own PBs. It's getting giga cringe that everyone playing well who's not engaging in the community is deemed a cheater.
Seems a bit salty to me tbh. They got beat by someone that isn’t in their “clique” of known players so just assumed he cheated because he did something different to them. He passed the patch so either find out how he cheated or leave his record, not really fair just to out someone as a cheater with 0 proof
They had enough proof, those inputs aren’t humanly possible, and as such, are highly unusual. Give an explanation or the best option is to remove it.
@@ecafireball2766 can’t accuse someone of cheating without knowing how they did it
They had no proof just things that they couldn’t explain
@@ecafireball2766" The inputs aren't humanly possible" When referring to a few frames long input completely inconsequential to the record.
it's not about it being inconsequential, it's just straight up impossible to go from steering full left to about 50% right in one millisecond AND hold this exact steering value without a slight deviation for some time on a controller, unless it was modded in some way. Both modding a controller or making a program to feed the game these steering values would invalidate the run hence the cheating accusation. When even a slight and unimportant part of the run is cheated you HAVE to at least ask yourself a question "if this one part is faked, what would stop a person from faking other parts or even the whole run?"
Fell off
I am not convinced, I think they deleted a leglt record.
Huuuuuuge stretch to call this guy a cheater as it stands. Honestly the top TM players are so elitist these days, accusing anyone who beats them of being a cheater just because they use different lines etc.
It validates. One buggy input is not proof of cheating. I understand being suspicious but calling them a cheater atm is unfair and you know it. But anything for clicks ig
Wirtual's unethical behavior on TH-cam makes his position as an anti-cheating warrior quite dubious...
how do we stop people offline creating a segmented run with key press recording on, linking them together, running with comp patch and then just pressing the macro and due to 1:1 probability in the game input (no rng) it works.
idk about this one man. seems like you got someones records wiped with no proof because they beat your friends time... >_>
kinda scummy using your platform like this, especially having no proof at all.
Did Racehans show proof of how he did his inputs? If not, we should consider his record as invalid.
stfu racehans is the goat
Not defending him, but I'll play devil's advocate. I like playing games with an Xbox 360 controller on my PC. Since mine is old, the stick potentiometers are worn out and messed up. Occasionally it registers as dead-zoned, or even opposite direction for a split second while moving in games, so there's a slim possibility. My issue certainly makes playing TM with this controller a pain. In RPG games, my characters occasionally stop moving, or move the opposite way for a frame or two.
As someone who used to cheat, I also think he was cheating.
Not proud of it now, but I used to write my own custom scripts for various games and I hit #1 on a lot of hiscores over the years. I had two ways, I would "hack" just by iterating over the screen searching for clumps of pixels to indicate something had happened in game, or in javascript browser games I would intercept the javascript before it reached the browser, edit values in my favor, and then pass the code through to the browser. Most games have server side checks to prevent this but there are still a lot of things you can change client side.
A lot of things made sense to me with this guy. First off, I would only hack games I liked, and I would always have two different accounts, one of which was clean. My guess is this guy has been playing for the whole time but mostly plays on his "clean" account.
The funny inputs are also something I would try to work around but sometimes get wrong. For example, games might check your mouse movement for things that look unnatural. So what I did is I read in my own human mouse movements, looked at how the input looked, for example the delay between events, and then I would "smooth out" my bots mouse movement by sending a bunch of similar events at the same interval. Just speculating here, but a bug that happened to me would've exactly matched his funny input. For example... say my starting mouse location was x:0, y:0 and I needed to move to x:100, y:100 in 200ms. I'd run an equation that would give me a smooth sequence of mouse movements for each time interval, with a lot of randomness and other tricks (too much to say here). One bug though is if say I needed to get to the same x:100, y:100 in 1ms, just one timestamp? Well, that's what my program would do, and it wouldn't look very human. My guess is that's what happened to this guy - he was at 100% left and his program said "i need to instantly be at 19% right" or something like that, and so his code that would make the inputs look human essentially did nothing.
Alternatively, another thing that might've happened, and this is probably how I would hack this game... let's say I'm pretty good at the game but not a pro. I would run the map up to the shortcut on my own, recording all of my game inputs. I'd store those inputs in a txt file where I where I can easily edit the values. Then I'd play those inputs back into the game but tweak specific values to try to get my desired outcome. Most important here, I would tweak it until I had a consistent landing bug (or not bugged? i don't actually play this game. a good landing is my point). Then, assuming the game is fully deterministic, which I think it is? I could get the landing 100% of the time and just try to play from that point on. Probably I would mess up and go wide like he did lol, but if I didn't hit the bumps, then again I could always just replay the run back to that point, knowing that if I didn't hit the bumps once then I'd never hit the bumps. His funny input might show up because he edited his human inputs in a way that looked really funny. Probably he was just kind of trying random inputs, and that quick 100L to 20R edit for some reason happened to work, so he kept it. The more I'm thinking about this by the way... Man, if I had a friend who was good at trackmania I think I could beat this pretty easily lol.
Anyways, finally, he didn't respond to the accusations. Again I actually don't play trackmania but I imagine this world record is quite the prestigious thing? Almost any response from the guy could have validated his record. But he didn't respond. I also never responded or appealed when I would sometimes get banned. Actually, I even told a lot of people in game that I was hacking. I think the nerd in me loved the technical challenge of hacking games, but I also at some level wanted to get caught, because deep down I guess I knew what I was doing wasn't good and I was hoping the developers would catch me and set justice to the world.
This video is gross. All acusations with no actual proof. Shame Wirtual
I can easily explain how this is possible. It happened to me in different game. My RAM was fully and when I moved my steering wheel game did not recognised. When memory was working again my steering wheel was already in different position and this can result in this weird behaviour.
Yeah no
That steering input looks like if you're driving on a controller and your finger slipped off of the knob and wiggled the other way a little
I think this is a little bit of a witch hunt, a guy got lucky, nothing looks wrong about that run, and you're turning Trackmania into a bunch of Elitists where nobody else is allowed to shine
I play on controller and I don't think that his joystick would go from full steering lock to 20-30% in the opposite direction in 0.01 seconds a more reasonable explanation would be switching from dpad steering to joystick but even then the timing is really questionable
Correct title: I'm trying to start another witch hunt.*
Run the inputs, see if removing the "weird" / "fishy" input makes the run worse. Besides that, it's "innocent until proven guilty", not "guilty because mr. streamer says so, unless you prove your innocence". This doesn't seem like a genuine attempt at preserving the games integrity in any way. It's just a streamer on a power trip...
Buddy, its not like they believe that one input got them the world record, its that they know that input isnt physically possible for a human to do. Its possible that it was just a joystick glitch, but is also just as possible that the jules had a program drive him to the wallbang the exact same way everytime and then gave him control. Its why small, one frame inconsistintent inputs are important.
It feels unfair to proclaim the run as cheated without any real concrete proof. I feel like calling it unvalidated is fair but i dont thing its right to say cheated without sufficent evidence.
People and Trackmania asked for proof it wasn't cheated and they had no answer. It should be easy to show other runs you made while training, things like that.
@@delphzouzou4520 i dont disagree that its suspicious. However there's not enough proof to say they cheated. Just because they didn't prove their legitimacy doesn't mean they are cheating. I think labeling the person a cheater is unfair, even if they are highly suspicious. I dont even disagree with removing the time, they had ample time to help the investigation.
@@Piman1607 Yeah, in front of a jury it's not enough to convict, but according to the elements we have in our possession, you and me know what it is.
@@Piman1607But there _is_ enough proof. As stated in the video, that series of inputs is not humanly possible if all you're using is a controller. *Not humanly possible* . That's all the proof needed. Of course, there might be other technical explanations for why this happened, but in that case it is on them to prove it. And as mentioned, Jules did not offer any explanation for how these inputs happened even a year after being questioned.
@tmaz9474is there any evidence , that jules received the questions?
I'm quitting this game. It was when they used his lack of response as evidence that did it. If I got a WR on this game, I would not have time to stand trial to a bunch of dorks who have time to go frame by frame through my record.
The Saltiest Gamer Exposes a Better Player