Team P Twin. They are just overall better. Smaller, cheaper, lighter, easier to work with and better looking. All that by keeping the sound and character of a V2. There is literally no reason other than nostalgia for the V2.
PTwins are simply superior engine designs. VTwins have their place in nostalgia land (see also: motoguzzi's engines) but the ptwin offers the same running characteristics but at lower weight, complexity, and cost. The key was the 270 degree crank.
I don't like the idea of everyone making the exact same thing, I like having the option of whether I want a single, a P twin, a V twin, a triple, an I4, a V4, etc
I agree but sometimes better is better especially from the manufacturer point of view. It's too bad, it's kind of like pushrod vs being phased out with the LS/Vortec being the last one left until being phased out now. I'm sure that's how old hot-rodders felt about the old flatheads which could be rebuilt in a garage, one piece heads, but by today's standards they look like a dinosaur.
@@someone9906the LSs are a great example, because while their power numbers don't stack up, try driving them. They don't feel at a loss for power, specifically because of its primitive pushrod design that makes all the torque accessible down low. My suburban is for sale now, but I couldn't imagine replacing it with something that really had to spin to push it forward. The entire experience of driving Suburbans/Tahoe's etc revolves around never having to rev it over 2500 rpm. Same is true of my V twins. I don't care that they're inefficient, they enhance the experience of riding the bikes they're installed on.
I actually like this conversation formats more than anything else you guys have done together. It's much more casual and relaxed, and it also allows for opinion to be interjected. I hope you guys do more like this.
the sheer lack of feel that a p twin offers is the reason i love a v twin despite all its flaws, and most importantly a v twin sounds so much better than a p twin
This format works! I hope you consider this in future videos more often. Lastly, the collaboration between you two feels natural, sincere, and authentic. Well done 👍.
1- I kinda like these conversational videos. Almost like MCN in a way 2- as much as I hate to say it, p-twins are going to be the future. Cheaper to manufacture, easier to package, and easier to maintain. My SV is about to hit 12k miles and I’m loathing the overdue spark plug swap because of how deep I have to dig into a naked bike. Triumph will see great success with their triples as the last bastion of true multiple-cylinder character (that isn’t a century old boxer twin)
Honestly, this format is welcome change of pace, compared to vLog format that you do usually. Hopefully, one day you will have an opportunity to create a stream of content in this fashion, something like you sitting with someone (guest or someone who you believe would provide a valuable insight) and discuss some subject, like this about parallel twins or similar.
I think it’s hard to beat the sound of a V-twin. Very characterful engines too. The only issue is that parallel twins appear to be easier to manufacture, better on fuel, more compact and I hazard to guess better for emissions. It’s a competitive and popular design. Even the hornet is now a twin. It’s hard to miss that P-twins are in a lot of great bikes now.
The sound of a 90° v-twin is the exact same sound of a parallel with a 270°crank, exacly the same firing order. Only, with a v, you get a perfect primary balance whereheas a parallell achieves perfect secondary balance, but still with a very good primary. V-twins of less that 90° are kind of "bad" , the aren't balanced, and if we are talking Harley, the fact that the rear piston gest so much hotter than the front one due to the airflow is a pretty proposterous engeneering oversight.
@@max-zv7sf Thank you for that Interesting answer , I do like the 270 degree crank bikes - they do sound really good. I ride a 52 degree Honda Shadow - I do appreciate Honda engineering for the smooth V-twin and water cooling. I'd say I am a fan of both camps for different reasons. The agony of motorbikes is just having only one!
@@StratfordWingRider im sorry if my answer was a bit of a rant. I certainly can't look down from any high horse, all my bikes have been single cylinder due to both money and interest (on and off road, and i just like small, light bikes). The Honda Shadow is a beatiful bike. Up to now i couldn't manage to find the money for more than a motorcycle at a time. That doesn't mean i wouldn't absolutely love to have a small collection. Maybe i should go to the dark side and look for a cruiser next.
@@max-zv7sf - you are ok, I appreciate decent conversation around topics and its hard to find! I actually still have a single cylinder '11 CBR250R in the fleet too - its such a wonderful contrast for its size and character. I will still be sad when the day comes that I need to move it on - I am attached to it - just because of how it feels to ride. The old riding a slow bike fast. The Shadow is quite the bike - very popular and for good reason. Somewhat understated compared to most cruisers, but extremely reliable and an enjoyable ride. (I got it for two up pillion riding with my wife)
Spite and Whitney are a great duo. Keep up the colabs and all the good work. To me parallel twins feel more modern an can feel more refined, your preference might depend on if you like that feeling. In my case I couldn't decide so I ride both a modern Bonneville and a Heritage classic, you simply can't compare them to each other. I think this may be paving the way for an electric future somehow?
Just about personal preference, but the reality is with rising prices of just about everything, having good quality motorcycles at affordable prices is something we need more of. A lot of manufacturers are guilty of making the same thing year after year without any major changes all while continuing to raise prices. Having a distinct character in an engine is cool, but ultimately most of us average folk want something fun, reliable, and at an obtainable price.
I have an SV650, and my first bike was a 91 Ex500. Granted, there was a 6 year gap between selling the one and buying the other, but I have no real preference either way for engine type. The Ninja's biggest weakness was lacking torque, but that's because it was a 180 degree parallel twin designed in 1987. Making 60 horsepower on a reliable 500cc twin was a marvel of engineering at the time.
Great video. I like the conversational style of video better than the vlog style when it's with a guest. Either way I like most of your videos so keep up the good work. V twin motors do have more character but p twins give more performance. It's a real toss up in my opinion which is better.
I LOVE the V2, great character, loads of torque down low and very pleasant to use (used to own a Ducati M600 and an Aprilia Dorsoduro 900), but once i tried my wife's Duke 790 i could not believe how smooth and pleasant to ride the I2 was. Light, nimble, lively and on top of all precise. I'm giving the inline2 a chance because why not ? There is a Tuono 660 coming into my garage later this month :D
I was a V-Twin guy for many years. Then I was in a Inline Four addiction because I like the power they make. Now I am on a P-Twin. One thing you didn't talk about was mileage. The P-Twin gets way more mileage than the V-Twin and more power, less vibration.
Ltwins/Vtwins also vibrate. All SV650 engines vibrated. All Ducati L-twins vibrated. Sure they are quite well balanced but not as perfect as some folks made them out to be. 270° parallels need at least one counterrotating balance shaft (MT-07 for example), but the new GSX-8S coming will run two of them, one beside the crank and one below it. The Super Tenere 1200 Yamaha is a 270° parallel twin which runs two counterbalance shafts, one on each side of the crank.
The 90 degree V-twin has a special place in this argument. All other angles of V-twin exist almost entirely for brand character and aesthetics. I'm team V-twin. Half the allure of a motorcycle is that they don't make sense. They're brash, inefficient, and dangerous. If you want an appliance, get a Toyota. In smaller displacements and mid-revving engines, the parallel twin makes a lot of sense. They give all the advantages that everyone already knows about. As engine speeds increase, the 90 degree has a major advantage in balance. Using a 90/270 degree crank on a parallel makes up for the sound, but it does not make up for the balance. As piston sizes grow large, the narrow angle twins like Harley and Indian use help package the engine between the legs better, but I'm not convinced it's a huge difference.
I like this style of video. I would like pictures of the bikes u talk about tho cuz while i do nerd out with bikes i dont know every bike so sometimes comparisons r completely lost on me
I loved the CP2 twin in my old 2018 XSR700 with a Yoshi R77 exhaust and a 2wdw tune really woke it up and made it a fun and great sounding motor. Easily my favorite motor for lower speed riding like under 80mph and in town with the smooth power delivery. It's a bulletproof low maintenance motor. They all have such unique characteristics, power delivery and sounds so it's a tough one. Looking forward to seeing how the new Honda and Suzuki Ptwins feel and deliver power, they're really the best motors for a casual rider/commuter whereas my inline 4 is too smooth and begs to be opened up past the speed limits just like my previous XSR900's CP3, they're for going fast and having fun in corners.
I loved the conversation format it reminded me of a podcast I used to listen to, two guys would talk about moto gp and bikes and the motorcycle news I loved it and I think more videos like this would hit that same nostalgia for me and many people
From an engineering point of view, guzzi is the best air-cooled v-twin. Engine balance, uniform cylinder cooling, top-end servicing ease, and cranshaft orientation which makes shaft final drive the only ligical choice.
P Twin for me. I do all the work on my bikes (exactly why i only own naked ones), and they are easier to work on. Also, a 180° P twin vs a 270° V twin are two different animals. The 180 lacks de low end grunt (below 3,5k rpms), the 270 pulls like a train from that low rpm but goes out of puff on high rpms. My gs500e loves to be over 7k rpm and hates bellow 4k, my mt07 lifts the front below 4k and struggles to hit its own rev limiter. Also you are both sitting on motorcycles from brands that have been saved and bought from bankrupcy several times, that tells us a bit about the niche of the v twins and why they don't change their strategy, they don't need to. Other brands on the other, might not have the government or VW to deploy millions to keep them afloat, so they take the safe road, the economic viable one. Disclaimer: I have nothing against v twins, but from a logic perspective I can see why P twins are favorable in today's market.
I believe that the US style V-Twins is still popular in the US because of the straight paved roads, long distances, speed limits and dislike of manual shifting. A P-twin usually needs a more active riding, shifting to get most of it. The V-twin is good at red light drag racing and constant speed cruising. As an European it's a simple choice.
I've mostly had inline 4s, although I did own an SV650 briefly (like 60 miles, then I wrecked it and broke my shoulder, which sucked). I've got an old V4 VF500 as a project, that bike sounds interesting, and my latest purchase was a 270 degree p-twin Husky 901. The 901 didn't sound like anything until I did an arrow midpipe and Akra can. Now it sounds amazing! I do agree on the maintenance issues with v-twins, that back cylinder can be somewhat of a pain to deal with, even for something as simple as a spark plug change.
I bought my first parallel twin motorcycle in April 2023, (2023 Yamaha T7) after 40 years of inline fours and V twins. I love it! Usable realistic everyday use power. Quick, not fast like my R1 but sensible useable, everyday, predictable power.
Twins can be phased 360,270,180 degrees (and Harley) so you can get a verity of sound from them. Most these days are 270, because its the compromise with engine vibration.
They're cheaper to manufacture, easier to package, and are better for mass centralization. They finally figured out how to make them interesting (270⁰ crank) so they're getting popular.
Looking at the brakes on the Duc and the brakes on the Harley blows me away. I put 15" rotors on my Harley Low Rider st and it helped the brakes by a large amount. I'm a v twin fan also.
I bought an MT07 right when it came out in 2014 and at the time it wasn't marketed as a beginner A2 compliant motorcycle. Back then it was presented as a cheaper alternative to the Ducati monster. And apart from strangely tuned suspensions it was actually good at what it set out to be. And the engine had its own identity, it vibrated way less than a V-twin or a standard 180 parallel twin and made fat torque right in the middle of the rev range. And so for a few months it was unique and fresh. Everyone else took note and tried to replicate the success meanwhile Yamaha shifted their marketing and increased the price. I personally prefer a 270 parallel twin to a 180 or a V-twin but over the last 10 years it went from being novel and exciting to a saturated market. And Ducatis have all sorts of quirks that make them Ducatis so you either like them or you don't. Same for Harley and Guzzi really. So are V-twin going extinct? I don't think so.
They're already well on the way to taking over... The 270deg crank solved the characterless nature of the p-twins of old and the packaging and servicing advantages are hard to ignore.
Ive been riding since i was 12, i am now 43, i have been on a variation of bikes (never a Ducati) but so far my favorite just because is the EBR 1190sx 72 degree V Twin, its a light beast that is fun and different. 400lbs wet, 195 hp and 115 ft lb (after exhaust and tune), I dont know, its just what speaks to me, not to mention I bought it for $5,000 with only 500 miles on it before i retired from the army lol
Im camp v. I have a 1000cc v twin and absolutely love it. The bike i want to try more than anything is a honda vfr v4 when they still had gear driven cams
The Yamaha TRX was a good example of the parallel twin and with aftermarket exhausts sounded nearly as good as a Ducati. I would love to see them re make one of these... Although with a bit more power. In saying that I'm on the v twin team 😉
SPITENEY RULES!!! I've been trying to find a way to explain to people what its like to ride my KTM Duke 390 (338lbs) on the highway. Whitney came up with the best way....its like riding on an air hockey table. That's it! Thats what its like and it sucks!!! AAAAAAAAnnnnnnnnddddddd thats why I am getting a new bike that I just put a deposit down and ordered yesterday and it's a (perfect segway) 2023 Triumph Speed Twin 1200 in Red Hopper color. Team parallel twin here. It's the exact one you pictured in this video. It's 476lbs and 138lbs more than my little Dukester. I am looking forward to riding around in "proper style" on my Missouri country highways at the Lake of the Ozarks
V-Twin for life! Definitely no better choice out there. I'm thinking I might need a little notice and I'll grab up whatever final year SV650 is produced.
I must say I’m on team V-twin, I own a SFV 650 (or Gladius 650) I adore the engine, the sound it’s just another accessory to compliment the bike. I was thinking, would love for you two to have a discussion about Guzzi, with being a V-twin but turned 90 degrees, could say best of both worlds? Would love to hear your thoughts about their new V100 liquid cooled motor Great video! Glad to see you two haven’t parted in anyway and only builds the content 👏👍
You covered a couple areas why the parallel twin is taking over the market where the V-Twins were. The compact design and the lesser weight. But the real reason is probably less expensice to manufacture. The parallel twin has one cylinder jug whereas the V-twin has two. The parallel twin has one cylinder head, the V-twin two. The parallel twin, if dohc has two camshafts, whereas if a V-twin has dohc it has four camshafts. The parallel twin has only one timing chain with all of its guides and tensioners, whereas the V-twin would have two timing chains and double the amount of guides and tensioners. As far as 360 degrees, 180 degree, and 270 degree they each have their own pluses and minuses. In today's world we are seeing plenty of 270 degree parallel twins. If you take the 270 degree away from 360 degree which is a full rotation it leaves you with 90 degree. So it will never sound like a Harley Davidson with its 45 degree V-twin. Maybe more like a Ducati, Yamaha Virago, or V-Star, or even a Moto Guzzi with their 90 degree engine layout. I think Harley Davidson and Indian will be the last to hold on to their V-Twins as their share of the market dwindles. I believe Ducati,, Moto Guzzi and others will in time have to build their own parallel twins. Bottom line, it's all about economics, the parallel twins are cheaper to manufacture. I will catch static from this because many will call these "in line" twins and believe that a parallel twin has to have both pistons rise and fall together to be a true parallel twin. Oh well. I've been chewed out before.
People have been calling for an end to the v-twin 10 minutes after Harley mounted a v-twin on a bicycle 120 years ago, I don’t see it happening anytime soon
It's so sad that Triumph stopped making those beautiful 1700cc Thunderbirds .what fab machines. Simple and reliable. The LT was great for style and comfort and the Thunderbird storm had a great twin headlight look.
I have always liked parallel twins. Had a couple of 305 Hondas then bought a Triumph 650 twin that I rode for a long time. Always wanted a Harley but never willing to pay the price. My riding buddy rides a Triumph triple that has 100,000 miles and the engine doesn't burn a drop of oil. I am seriously looking at the Royal Enfield Interstate 650 twin. I'm too old to care much about power so a midsize twin that is reliable works for me.
I haven't ridden a V-twin, but I've owned a P-twin for 20 years, so I'm (by default?) a P-twin guy. That being said, I don't think the V-twin's day are numbered, per se. Just like Porsche and Subaru will keep making boxer engines (although VW didn't...heavy sigh), I'm pretty sure Harley and Ducati will keep making V-twins, and that other marques may get back into the V-twin game, later on down the line. With motorcycles, NEVER say NEVER!!! Great video, Spite and Whitney!!!
I think you're right about Harley and Ducati keeping them around -- the interesting wild card will be KTM. They're obviously commited to p-twins in their smaller bikes, but the LC8 v-twin in the Super Duke/Super Adventure is just such a stupid fun engine, I'd be sad to see it go.
I look for a motorcycle that looks good, rides well and easy maintenance. My favorite bike owned was my Ducati 696 Monster. Most maintenance was easy except for valve adjustment and battery replacement. $1,000 for a valve adjustment and several hours to replace the battery. My in-line 4 bike (GSXF1000) took a mechanic over two hours to get the the spark plugs. My current bike (2022 Harley Davidson Nightster) is easy to maintain except moderate difficulty to get to the spark plugs. The Pan American bike takes over one hour just to get the tank off. Motorcycles are expensive and buyers want a bike that they can do a lot of the maintenance themselves to save money and the fun of working on their own bikes. The dealership would rather you pay them to do all the maintenance. If one is made of money that is fine, but most people are not. In conclusion, give me a water cooled bike that looks good and performs well that I can work on.
I like wacky engine configurations, so I quite like Vtwins. What I really want is for RE to put that V twin they made into production, maybe for more high end models that deliver more than A2 levels of power. Or Harley can get off their asses and try to make something that competes with the super meteor in terms of pricetag.
11:30 I can't agree that Triumph & Yamaha will eventually drop their triples. IMO I think Triumph's identity is too firmly tied to 3 cyl bikes & Yamaha will keep their CP3 for premium models. But yes, in line twins are pretty amazing, these days.
In my personal experience and opinion, I will take a 270 degree P-Twin over a V-Twin when push comes to shove. I've owned a few V-twin cruisers, a Yamaha Super Tenere (big bore P-twin) and KTM 1290 SAS (V-Twin, and current bike). P-Twin is less mechanically complex and the cost of ownership is likely to be cheaper. I love my KTM 1290 SAS...but only when it's fully functional. It's a great V-Twin because it's in a high state of tune. That also makes them less reliable, and they're not cheap when things break. KTM's quality control has been suffering in a big way over the last several years, and they're not owning up to it. The happiest KTM owners I've talked to are the ones with the ability, space and tools to wrench on their bike and don't rely on dealerships...and the truth is that not everyone wants to be that person. Some have circumstances where it would be very difficult to do so.
I'm in camp utilitarian. Whatever is cheaper to buy and maintain and can get me where I need to go and carry the gear I need when I get there is the bike I'm going with.
I own a Triumph at. Scrambler, the sound, power and torque it makes is great for me but I do like how a Harley sounds, just can’t deal with the feet forward feel
Thank God for that. Just picked up a ‘23 V-Strom 650 L-twin. I’m loving it. It is s-m-o-o-t-h, good top end power, revvy nature, and wonderful mid range torque. A keeper. I’d gladly pay more for the complexity and valve adjustment maintenance of an L-twin over a 270 degree P2 any day. ALL current P2’s, regardless of crank configuration require the complexity and power consumption of a balance shaft (or two!) to keep the inherent vibration of a P2 under reasonable control. The bottom line is, current market forces demand a cheaper to produce engine. Period, end of story.
Interesting vid. I personally prefer V-twins but there's not much in it with the 270 crank. Also as you say PT's are simpler, smaller & cheaper than V-twins so it makes sense as manufacturer's try to cut costs etc. I also think in Europe at least, the mass transition to PT engines is the beginning of the end for combustion engines, albeit 10-15 years away, unless much cleaner fuel alternatives can be developed I guess.
You guys really need to come east and ride deals gap, and the back of the dragon. If you are ever around the area I could be your tour guide. I'm riding a 2023 R1 this season. I'd bring a motorcycle that can handle the twisties. I quit watching yammies channel, it was wrong how he did you. Good job with the content. Keep it up.
I imagine Harley will be V-twin until the end not because of the layout in its own right but because that layout makes the most sense in the CCs they like to make. An 1800cc parallel twin would be stupid wide in the traditional orientation, they would have to go the Rocket 3 route and put the crank longitudinally in the bike but then you get into the whole Harley aesthetics discussion and how that will never happen so they're pretty much painted into the corner of V-twins. Ducati is going parallel twin, they just have two in one so it's a V4 :P
If manufacturers have to add too many more clean air mods, a vee will make it harder to find the room, unless it's a BIG bike. Ducati haven't got much of a frame left on many of their models - to reduce weight, gain some space, while remaining fairly small package......the extra cost of producing a vee engine isn't so much of an issue for a manufacturer whose bikes are expensive.
I just bought a parallel twin but have yet to really ride it to know if I like it, however from a sound standpoint, I love v-twins and own one specifically for that reason. Also, I love the SV650. Not a fan of the new 8S.
The 270 crank inline twin is just the combination of everything good about both engine layouts, and with the MT-07 and its sibings combined with RE's 650 platform out there being affordable and widespread no wonder other manufacturers are rolling their versions out. The only V layout I'd say is cool enough to remain its own thing is Guzzi's transverse V engines cause they allow for shaft drive.
I love v-twins but parallel twins can be tuned for torque or horsepower, are lighter, are cheaper to produce, still can sound awesome, and are just more logical and utilitarian all around.
I dig the 270* crank on my Tuareg 660, but getting back on my older Triumph 800XC sure can be fun (before they went hybrid cross-plane on their 900's). That triple with even spacing on each cylinder just SCREAMS like a mountain lion banshee with a chainsaw once I get it above about 6K on the tach. I agree that motorcycling will be a sadder world if and when the manufacturers all homogenize engines to a standard format (most likely 270* P-twins given the trend of the market). I kind of want a Kawasaki Z900RS for my next bike just to get to experience an inline 4. Never owned one before.
Are you in camp V Twin or camp P Twin, and why?
Team P Twin. They are just overall better. Smaller, cheaper, lighter, easier to work with and better looking. All that by keeping the sound and character of a V2. There is literally no reason other than nostalgia for the V2.
I ride a Moto Guzz... So defenetly team V-Twin. Juste the Sound and the Rumble. nothin is like that
After ridiing an XSR700, P-twin. Easier to work on and pretty damn close to the experience I got on many V-twins.
PTwins are simply superior engine designs. VTwins have their place in nostalgia land (see also: motoguzzi's engines) but the ptwin offers the same running characteristics but at lower weight, complexity, and cost. The key was the 270 degree crank.
I am inline 4 camp....
I don't like the idea of everyone making the exact same thing, I like having the option of whether I want a single, a P twin, a V twin, a triple, an I4, a V4, etc
I agree but sometimes better is better especially from the manufacturer point of view. It's too bad, it's kind of like pushrod vs being phased out with the LS/Vortec being the last one left until being phased out now. I'm sure that's how old hot-rodders felt about the old flatheads which could be rebuilt in a garage, one piece heads, but by today's standards they look like a dinosaur.
I'd rather the buying public knew what the difference was besides lumps of metal poking in various directions and a different noise.
Don't forget I6 (Honda) and Flat 6 (Honda). I-6 sounds incredible!
@@someone9906the LSs are a great example, because while their power numbers don't stack up, try driving them. They don't feel at a loss for power, specifically because of its primitive pushrod design that makes all the torque accessible down low. My suburban is for sale now, but I couldn't imagine replacing it with something that really had to spin to push it forward. The entire experience of driving Suburbans/Tahoe's etc revolves around never having to rev it over 2500 rpm. Same is true of my V twins. I don't care that they're inefficient, they enhance the experience of riding the bikes they're installed on.
I actually like this conversation formats more than anything else you guys have done together.
It's much more casual and relaxed, and it also allows for opinion to be interjected.
I hope you guys do more like this.
Agreed.... like what two bikers do on every ride, pull over and shoot the sh-t.
I like this format of sitting on the bikes like you're having a table-talk. Looks chill and like something me and my friends would do while out.
the sheer lack of feel that a p twin offers is the reason i love a v twin despite all its flaws, and most importantly a v twin sounds so much better than a p twin
This format works! I hope you consider this in future videos more often. Lastly, the collaboration between you two feels natural, sincere, and authentic.
Well done 👍.
1- I kinda like these conversational videos. Almost like MCN in a way
2- as much as I hate to say it, p-twins are going to be the future. Cheaper to manufacture, easier to package, and easier to maintain. My SV is about to hit 12k miles and I’m loathing the overdue spark plug swap because of how deep I have to dig into a naked bike. Triumph will see great success with their triples as the last bastion of true multiple-cylinder character (that isn’t a century old boxer twin)
I'm in camp V-Twin, I want to savor the trip not just commute. I strongly prefer the conversational format and exchange of ideas, more please.
Honestly, this format is welcome change of pace, compared to vLog format that you do usually.
Hopefully, one day you will have an opportunity to create a stream of content in this fashion, something like you sitting with someone (guest or someone who you believe would provide a valuable insight) and discuss some subject, like this about parallel twins or similar.
I think it’s hard to beat the sound of a V-twin. Very characterful engines too.
The only issue is that parallel twins appear to be easier to manufacture, better on fuel, more compact and I hazard to guess better for emissions. It’s a competitive and popular design. Even the hornet is now a twin.
It’s hard to miss that P-twins are in a lot of great bikes now.
The sound of a 90° v-twin is the exact same sound of a parallel with a 270°crank, exacly the same firing order. Only, with a v, you get a perfect primary balance whereheas a parallell achieves perfect secondary balance, but still with a very good primary.
V-twins of less that 90° are kind of "bad" , the aren't balanced, and if we are talking Harley, the fact that the rear piston gest so much hotter than the front one due to the airflow is a pretty proposterous engeneering oversight.
@@max-zv7sf Thank you for that Interesting answer , I do like the 270 degree crank bikes - they do sound really good. I ride a 52 degree Honda Shadow - I do appreciate Honda engineering for the smooth V-twin and water cooling. I'd say I am a fan of both camps for different reasons. The agony of motorbikes is just having only one!
@@StratfordWingRider im sorry if my answer was a bit of a rant.
I certainly can't look down from any high horse, all my bikes have been single cylinder due to both money and interest (on and off road, and i just like small, light bikes).
The Honda Shadow is a beatiful bike. Up to now i couldn't manage to find the money for more than a motorcycle at a time. That doesn't mean i wouldn't absolutely love to have a small collection. Maybe i should go to the dark side and look for a cruiser next.
@@max-zv7sf - you are ok, I appreciate decent conversation around topics and its hard to find! I actually still have a single cylinder '11 CBR250R in the fleet too - its such a wonderful contrast for its size and character. I will still be sad when the day comes that I need to move it on - I am attached to it - just because of how it feels to ride. The old riding a slow bike fast.
The Shadow is quite the bike - very popular and for good reason. Somewhat understated compared to most cruisers, but extremely reliable and an enjoyable ride. (I got it for two up pillion riding with my wife)
It's a shame the Hornet is now a parallel twin. The old four cylinder lump was a joy.
Spite and Whitney are a great duo. Keep up the colabs and all the good work. To me parallel twins feel more modern an can feel more refined, your preference might depend on if you like that feeling. In my case I couldn't decide so I ride both a modern Bonneville and a Heritage classic, you simply can't compare them to each other. I think this may be paving the way for an electric future somehow?
The CP2 actually sounds really good with a nice exhaust
I like the sound'n'feel of riding V-twins, but I also like the easy accessibility for service on (most) P-twins.
Get a Guzzi. Best of both worlds.
Just about personal preference, but the reality is with rising prices of just about everything, having good quality motorcycles at affordable prices is something we need more of. A lot of manufacturers are guilty of making the same thing year after year without any major changes all while continuing to raise prices. Having a distinct character in an engine is cool, but ultimately most of us average folk want something fun, reliable, and at an obtainable price.
I have an SV650, and my first bike was a 91 Ex500. Granted, there was a 6 year gap between selling the one and buying the other, but I have no real preference either way for engine type. The Ninja's biggest weakness was lacking torque, but that's because it was a 180 degree parallel twin designed in 1987. Making 60 horsepower on a reliable 500cc twin was a marvel of engineering at the time.
Great video. I like the conversational style of video better than the vlog style when it's with a guest. Either way I like most of your videos so keep up the good work. V twin motors do have more character but p twins give more performance. It's a real toss up in my opinion which is better.
I LOVE the V2, great character, loads of torque down low and very pleasant to use (used to own a Ducati M600 and an Aprilia Dorsoduro 900), but once i tried my wife's Duke 790 i could not believe how smooth and pleasant to ride the I2 was. Light, nimble, lively and on top of all precise.
I'm giving the inline2 a chance because why not ? There is a Tuono 660 coming into my garage later this month :D
I was a V-Twin guy for many years. Then I was in a Inline Four addiction because I like the power they make. Now I am on a P-Twin. One thing you didn't talk about was mileage. The P-Twin gets way more mileage than the V-Twin and more power, less vibration.
Ltwins/Vtwins also vibrate. All SV650 engines vibrated. All Ducati L-twins vibrated. Sure they are quite well balanced but not as perfect as some folks made them out to be. 270° parallels need at least one counterrotating balance shaft (MT-07 for example), but the new GSX-8S coming will run two of them, one beside the crank and one below it. The Super Tenere 1200 Yamaha is a 270° parallel twin which runs two counterbalance shafts, one on each side of the crank.
P-Twins seem like the best compromise to me. And you can have different sounds and character based on crankshaft angle.
Camp V for sure.
And yeah the conversation format was very enjoyable. I’d like to see more!
Man, those are some of the nicest sounding leaf blowers I've ever heard.
The 90 degree V-twin has a special place in this argument. All other angles of V-twin exist almost entirely for brand character and aesthetics.
I'm team V-twin. Half the allure of a motorcycle is that they don't make sense. They're brash, inefficient, and dangerous. If you want an appliance, get a Toyota.
In smaller displacements and mid-revving engines, the parallel twin makes a lot of sense. They give all the advantages that everyone already knows about. As engine speeds increase, the 90 degree has a major advantage in balance. Using a 90/270 degree crank on a parallel makes up for the sound, but it does not make up for the balance. As piston sizes grow large, the narrow angle twins like Harley and Indian use help package the engine between the legs better, but I'm not convinced it's a huge difference.
This is your best video since starting the channel love the format
Yes. I like the conversation format. You both are fun to listen to.
I like this style of video.
I would like pictures of the bikes u talk about tho cuz while i do nerd out with bikes i dont know every bike so sometimes comparisons r completely lost on me
You all are an awesome duo for this
I really enjoyed this format! very relaxing and easy to watch while i multitask (how i usually watch youtube)
Bummer to loose the vlog but go ahead and keep talking. Nothing wrong with that. Fun to hear yal recall the experience.
I loved the CP2 twin in my old 2018 XSR700 with a Yoshi R77 exhaust and a 2wdw tune really woke it up and made it a fun and great sounding motor. Easily my favorite motor for lower speed riding like under 80mph and in town with the smooth power delivery. It's a bulletproof low maintenance motor. They all have such unique characteristics, power delivery and sounds so it's a tough one. Looking forward to seeing how the new Honda and Suzuki Ptwins feel and deliver power, they're really the best motors for a casual rider/commuter whereas my inline 4 is too smooth and begs to be opened up past the speed limits just like my previous XSR900's CP3, they're for going fast and having fun in corners.
I loved the conversation format it reminded me of a podcast I used to listen to, two guys would talk about moto gp and bikes and the motorcycle news I loved it and I think more videos like this would hit that same nostalgia for me and many people
I’m over here on Honda vlx 600. Yeah sure it’s kind of anemic, but I still get all the joy out of writing a V-twin.
From an engineering point of view, guzzi is the best air-cooled v-twin. Engine balance, uniform cylinder cooling, top-end servicing ease, and cranshaft orientation which makes shaft final drive the only ligical choice.
You got to love this duo and there different ways to look at a bike!
270 p-twins sound about as good as any V-twin IMHO. Packaging is definitely better on the p-twin, making them easier to work on.
Great video guys!!! Thank you 😉
P Twin for me. I do all the work on my bikes (exactly why i only own naked ones), and they are easier to work on. Also, a 180° P twin vs a 270° V twin are two different animals. The 180 lacks de low end grunt (below 3,5k rpms), the 270 pulls like a train from that low rpm but goes out of puff on high rpms. My gs500e loves to be over 7k rpm and hates bellow 4k, my mt07 lifts the front below 4k and struggles to hit its own rev limiter. Also you are both sitting on motorcycles from brands that have been saved and bought from bankrupcy several times, that tells us a bit about the niche of the v twins and why they don't change their strategy, they don't need to. Other brands on the other, might not have the government or VW to deploy millions to keep them afloat, so they take the safe road, the economic viable one.
Disclaimer: I have nothing against v twins, but from a logic perspective I can see why P twins are favorable in today's market.
I believe that the US style V-Twins is still popular in the US because of the straight paved roads, long distances, speed limits and dislike of manual shifting. A P-twin usually needs a more active riding, shifting to get most of it. The V-twin is good at red light drag racing and constant speed cruising. As an European it's a simple choice.
Great vid - love the format. Very chill synergy between you two.
I've mostly had inline 4s, although I did own an SV650 briefly (like 60 miles, then I wrecked it and broke my shoulder, which sucked). I've got an old V4 VF500 as a project, that bike sounds interesting, and my latest purchase was a 270 degree p-twin Husky 901. The 901 didn't sound like anything until I did an arrow midpipe and Akra can. Now it sounds amazing!
I do agree on the maintenance issues with v-twins, that back cylinder can be somewhat of a pain to deal with, even for something as simple as a spark plug change.
I bought my first parallel twin motorcycle in April 2023, (2023 Yamaha T7) after 40 years of inline fours and V twins. I love it! Usable realistic everyday use power. Quick, not fast like my R1 but sensible useable, everyday, predictable power.
Twins can be phased 360,270,180 degrees (and Harley) so you can get a verity of sound from them. Most these days are 270, because its the compromise with engine vibration.
Always a delight to see and hear you both on the move on the topics you bring on are sport of riding and maintaining of are rides freaken cool
They're cheaper to manufacture, easier to package, and are better for mass centralization. They finally figured out how to make them interesting (270⁰ crank) so they're getting popular.
Looking at the brakes on the Duc and the brakes on the Harley blows me away. I put 15" rotors on my Harley Low Rider st and it helped the brakes by a large amount. I'm a v twin fan also.
I bought an MT07 right when it came out in 2014 and at the time it wasn't marketed as a beginner A2 compliant motorcycle. Back then it was presented as a cheaper alternative to the Ducati monster. And apart from strangely tuned suspensions it was actually good at what it set out to be. And the engine had its own identity, it vibrated way less than a V-twin or a standard 180 parallel twin and made fat torque right in the middle of the rev range. And so for a few months it was unique and fresh. Everyone else took note and tried to replicate the success meanwhile Yamaha shifted their marketing and increased the price.
I personally prefer a 270 parallel twin to a 180 or a V-twin but over the last 10 years it went from being novel and exciting to a saturated market. And Ducatis have all sorts of quirks that make them Ducatis so you either like them or you don't. Same for Harley and Guzzi really. So are V-twin going extinct? I don't think so.
I own a 890 R , my personal opinion is that it really doesn’t get blown around on the freeway
Triumph Bonneville range makes sense as they've historically always been parallel twins.
They're already well on the way to taking over... The 270deg crank solved the characterless nature of the p-twins of old and the packaging and servicing advantages are hard to ignore.
Dope video, just needed audio of VT vs PT.
I like this format. Keep it up, guys.
Ive been riding since i was 12, i am now 43, i have been on a variation of bikes (never a Ducati) but so far my favorite just because is the EBR 1190sx 72 degree V Twin, its a light beast that is fun and different. 400lbs wet, 195 hp and 115 ft lb (after exhaust and tune), I dont know, its just what speaks to me, not to mention I bought it for $5,000 with only 500 miles on it before i retired from the army lol
Really enjoy this format! Keep up the good (and interesting) work!
Having ridden and owned both engine configurations, I'll take the Vee every time.
Im camp v. I have a 1000cc v twin and absolutely love it. The bike i want to try more than anything is a honda vfr v4 when they still had gear driven cams
The Yamaha TRX was a good example of the parallel twin and with aftermarket exhausts sounded nearly as good as a Ducati.
I would love to see them re make one of these... Although with a bit more power.
In saying that I'm on the v twin team 😉
I like the P-Twin. great format y'all!
SPITENEY RULES!!! I've been trying to find a way to explain to people what its like to ride my KTM Duke 390 (338lbs) on the highway. Whitney came up with the best way....its like riding on an air hockey table. That's it! Thats what its like and it sucks!!! AAAAAAAAnnnnnnnnddddddd thats why I am getting a new bike that I just put a deposit down and ordered yesterday and it's a (perfect segway) 2023 Triumph Speed Twin 1200 in Red Hopper color. Team parallel twin here. It's the exact one you pictured in this video. It's 476lbs and 138lbs more than my little Dukester. I am looking forward to riding around in "proper style" on my Missouri country highways at the Lake of the Ozarks
V-Twin for life! Definitely no better choice out there.
I'm thinking I might need a little notice and I'll grab up whatever final year SV650 is produced.
Does it matter when they can be made to run and sound the same, and have the parallel engine benefits of weight and cost?
I must say I’m on team V-twin, I own a SFV 650 (or Gladius 650) I adore the engine, the sound it’s just another accessory to compliment the bike.
I was thinking, would love for you two to have a discussion about Guzzi, with being a V-twin but turned 90 degrees, could say best of both worlds? Would love to hear your thoughts about their new V100 liquid cooled motor
Great video! Glad to see you two haven’t parted in anyway and only builds the content 👏👍
You covered a couple areas why the parallel twin is taking over the market where the V-Twins were. The compact design and the lesser weight. But the real reason is probably less expensice to manufacture. The parallel twin has one cylinder jug whereas the V-twin has two. The parallel twin has one cylinder head, the V-twin two. The parallel twin, if dohc has two camshafts, whereas if a V-twin has dohc it has four camshafts. The parallel twin has only one timing chain with all of its guides and tensioners, whereas the V-twin would have two timing chains and double the amount of guides and tensioners.
As far as 360 degrees, 180 degree, and 270 degree they each have their own pluses and minuses. In today's world we are seeing plenty of 270 degree parallel twins. If you take the 270 degree away from 360 degree which is a full rotation it leaves you with 90 degree. So it will never sound like a Harley Davidson with its 45 degree V-twin. Maybe more like a Ducati, Yamaha Virago, or V-Star, or even a Moto Guzzi with their 90 degree engine layout.
I think Harley Davidson and Indian will be the last to hold on to their V-Twins as their share of the market dwindles. I believe Ducati,, Moto Guzzi and others will in time have to build their own parallel twins.
Bottom line, it's all about economics, the parallel twins are cheaper to manufacture. I will catch static from this because many will call these "in line" twins and believe that a parallel twin has to have both pistons rise and fall together to be a true parallel twin. Oh well. I've been chewed out before.
People have been calling for an end to the v-twin 10 minutes after Harley mounted a v-twin on a bicycle 120 years ago, I don’t see it happening anytime soon
There is a place for every engine configuration. They all have plusses & minuses. :)
It's so sad that Triumph stopped making those beautiful 1700cc Thunderbirds .what fab machines. Simple and reliable. The LT was great for style and comfort and the Thunderbird storm had a great twin headlight look.
I have always liked parallel twins. Had a couple of 305 Hondas then bought a Triumph 650 twin that I rode for a long time. Always wanted a Harley but never willing to pay the price. My riding buddy rides a Triumph triple that has 100,000 miles and the engine doesn't burn a drop of oil. I am seriously looking at the Royal Enfield Interstate 650 twin. I'm too old to care much about power so a midsize twin that is reliable works for me.
FZ07/MT07 with a yoshimura is one of the best sounding bikes in the universe
redlining an inline 4 is a close second
I haven't ridden a V-twin, but I've owned a P-twin for 20 years, so I'm (by default?) a P-twin guy.
That being said, I don't think the V-twin's day are numbered, per se. Just like Porsche and Subaru will keep making boxer engines (although VW didn't...heavy sigh), I'm pretty sure Harley and Ducati will keep making V-twins, and that other marques may get back into the V-twin game, later on down the line.
With motorcycles, NEVER say NEVER!!!
Great video, Spite and Whitney!!!
I think you're right about Harley and Ducati keeping them around -- the interesting wild card will be KTM. They're obviously commited to p-twins in their smaller bikes, but the LC8 v-twin in the Super Duke/Super Adventure is just such a stupid fun engine, I'd be sad to see it go.
I look for a motorcycle that looks good, rides well and easy maintenance. My favorite bike owned was my Ducati 696 Monster. Most maintenance was easy except for valve adjustment and battery replacement. $1,000 for a valve adjustment and several hours to replace the battery. My in-line 4 bike (GSXF1000) took a mechanic over two hours to get the the spark plugs. My current bike (2022 Harley Davidson Nightster) is easy to maintain except moderate difficulty to get to the spark plugs. The Pan American bike takes over one hour just to get the tank off. Motorcycles are expensive and buyers want a bike that they can do a lot of the maintenance themselves to save money and the fun of working on their own bikes. The dealership would rather you pay them to do all the maintenance. If one is made of money that is fine, but most people are not. In conclusion, give me a water cooled bike that looks good and performs well that I can work on.
I like the compromise, two P's in a V.
Can't wait for a KTM Super Duke V4R...
Parallel twins are purely about packaging and costs. Cheaper to build, the layout works better for the tight confines of a bike, they make sense.
First bike was a P-twin, current bike is a V-twin. Want to try some more engines.
I like the boxer on the GS. But that is more that I like the look of the bike.
I like wacky engine configurations, so I quite like Vtwins. What I really want is for RE to put that V twin they made into production, maybe for more high end models that deliver more than A2 levels of power. Or Harley can get off their asses and try to make something that competes with the super meteor in terms of pricetag.
11:30 I can't agree that Triumph & Yamaha will eventually drop their triples. IMO I think Triumph's identity is too firmly tied to 3 cyl bikes & Yamaha will keep their CP3 for premium models. But yes, in line twins are pretty amazing, these days.
In my personal experience and opinion, I will take a 270 degree P-Twin over a V-Twin when push comes to shove. I've owned a few V-twin cruisers, a Yamaha Super Tenere (big bore P-twin) and KTM 1290 SAS (V-Twin, and current bike). P-Twin is less mechanically complex and the cost of ownership is likely to be cheaper. I love my KTM 1290 SAS...but only when it's fully functional. It's a great V-Twin because it's in a high state of tune. That also makes them less reliable, and they're not cheap when things break. KTM's quality control has been suffering in a big way over the last several years, and they're not owning up to it. The happiest KTM owners I've talked to are the ones with the ability, space and tools to wrench on their bike and don't rely on dealerships...and the truth is that not everyone wants to be that person. Some have circumstances where it would be very difficult to do so.
I'm in camp utilitarian. Whatever is cheaper to buy and maintain and can get me where I need to go and carry the gear I need when I get there is the bike I'm going with.
Perfect again Spite !! Thnx !!
KTMs are still rocking the 1290 - 1490 V-Twin platforms through 2025!
I was always a fan of the sound of a Harley V Twin!
I own a Triumph at. Scrambler, the sound, power and torque it makes is great for me but I do like how a Harley sounds, just can’t deal with the feet forward feel
I had a 1968 bsa 650 p twin that sounded close to the harley v twin it was also a push rod engine.
I will never forgive Suzuki for axing the sv650 engine. That was the best motorcycle engine ever made.
Idt it's gone
Thank God for that. Just picked up a ‘23 V-Strom 650 L-twin. I’m loving it. It is s-m-o-o-t-h, good top end power, revvy nature, and wonderful mid range torque. A keeper. I’d gladly pay more for the complexity and valve adjustment maintenance of an L-twin over a 270 degree P2 any day. ALL current P2’s, regardless of crank configuration require the complexity and power consumption of a balance shaft (or two!) to keep the inherent vibration of a P2 under reasonable control. The bottom line is, current market forces demand a cheaper to produce engine. Period, end of story.
Whitney strikes me as the kind of girl... when you ask her what she wants to drink, she says, "IDC as long as it gets me drunk"
Triumph are never gonna make an inline 4? I must have imagined my old 1200 Trophy.
Interesting vid. I personally prefer V-twins but there's not much in it with the 270 crank. Also as you say PT's are simpler, smaller & cheaper than V-twins so it makes sense as manufacturer's try to cut costs etc. I also think in Europe at least, the mass transition to PT engines is the beginning of the end for combustion engines, albeit 10-15 years away, unless much cleaner fuel alternatives can be developed I guess.
You guys really need to come east and ride deals gap, and the back of the dragon. If you are ever around the area I could be your tour guide. I'm riding a 2023 R1 this season. I'd bring a motorcycle that can handle the twisties. I quit watching yammies channel, it was wrong how he did you. Good job with the content. Keep it up.
I just realized, the both bikes have the same style wheels lol. Cool
I imagine Harley will be V-twin until the end not because of the layout in its own right but because that layout makes the most sense in the CCs they like to make. An 1800cc parallel twin would be stupid wide in the traditional orientation, they would have to go the Rocket 3 route and put the crank longitudinally in the bike but then you get into the whole Harley aesthetics discussion and how that will never happen so they're pretty much painted into the corner of V-twins. Ducati is going parallel twin, they just have two in one so it's a V4 :P
If manufacturers have to add too many more clean air mods, a vee will make it harder to find the room, unless it's a BIG bike. Ducati haven't got much of a frame left on many of their models - to reduce weight, gain some space, while remaining fairly small package......the extra cost of producing a vee engine isn't so much of an issue for a manufacturer whose bikes are expensive.
I Like (and liked) the content and collaboration
I just bought a parallel twin but have yet to really ride it to know if I like it, however from a sound standpoint, I love v-twins and own one specifically for that reason. Also, I love the SV650. Not a fan of the new 8S.
Have a listen to an air/oil cooled 750 F1 Ducati Santa Monica L twin. Through a 2 into 1 race exhaust system. It sounds awesome 😎.
Im sitting here in camp triple looking over at camp v twin and p twin ready to take them both on.
combine the 2, better than either, V4!
I like old school muscle and hotrod sound so I'm gonna go with vtwin.Imo nothing is better than a twin cam with a thunderheader.
The 270 crank inline twin is just the combination of everything good about both engine layouts, and with the MT-07 and its sibings combined with RE's 650 platform out there being affordable and widespread no wonder other manufacturers are rolling their versions out. The only V layout I'd say is cool enough to remain its own thing is Guzzi's transverse V engines cause they allow for shaft drive.
Lots of metric cruisers had V-twins and shaft drive. Just not sure any of them are being made anymore
I love v-twins but parallel twins can be tuned for torque or horsepower, are lighter, are cheaper to produce, still can sound awesome, and are just more logical and utilitarian all around.
When I cross shopped a Pan America and an Africa Twin 1100, the HD sounded like a sewing machine and the Africa sounded more like a Harley. 😆
I dig the 270* crank on my Tuareg 660, but getting back on my older Triumph 800XC sure can be fun (before they went hybrid cross-plane on their 900's). That triple with even spacing on each cylinder just SCREAMS like a mountain lion banshee with a chainsaw once I get it above about 6K on the tach. I agree that motorcycling will be a sadder world if and when the manufacturers all homogenize engines to a standard format (most likely 270* P-twins given the trend of the market). I kind of want a Kawasaki Z900RS for my next bike just to get to experience an inline 4. Never owned one before.