truth be told, marvel is playing their strengh in mcu. marvel characters had always the human element in them, whereas dc they are god like beings,so over there its hard to relate. thats why JLU cartoon was awesome but marvel cartoons tend to be so so,for cartoons you want the splash thing more then dynamics and that works better with DC then marvel. in movies its the oposite you want to care about the characters otherwise the story doesnt matter.
Calling marvel fans corporate fanboys is a really dumb insult. WB is a corporation. That corporation has their hands all over this property. The only difference is the Disney corrosion is good at what they do and the WB corporation isn't.
Heres how DC executives think christopher nolans dark knight trilogy becomes a huge hit, WB- "Ok, lets start a movie universe based on a dark and realistic tone". man of steel and BvS divides audience WB- "oh, people didnt like it?Ok, lets cut justice league within 2 hrs and make batman tell jokes". audience- fuck u!. THIS EXACT THING HAPPENED WITH BATMAN MOVIES YEARS AGO.remember batman and robin?Yeah. these fools still havent learned their lesson.its not about the tone or length or comedy. Its about making a good movie.
I would have been fine with a pure Batman detective movie just dealing with him trying to catch Victor Zsasz... Has to use his brains instead of muscles... WB has zero clue what fans really want...
Beavernator - No more Batman, no more Superman. That's the problem with WB, they don't use their other characters. Also, movie studios are so far removed and out of touch with society they don't know what people want.
You hit the nail right on the head man. If anything they should just have soldiered on with justice league in Snyders vision then had other directors do the solo movies and tried to work on the writing and plot. When you make a good movie people will come to watch it regardless of the characters in it or even the marketing. The movie will do well just on word of mouth alone.
Agreed. Warner Bros pissed all over Batman in the 90s and they're doing the same with the DCEU now. The other problem is Zack Snyder and his choppy film making. The guy does a good Batman I'll give him that, but that's only due to the character already fitting in with the world he wants. The trouble is, that tone doesn't fit with anyone else, especially Superman, and the films being poorly tacked together is the final nail in the coffin. He should just give everything to Patty Jenkins and Joss Whedon and stay on as a producer only.
sabari nath Word dude. Logan and Nolan's Batman trilogy are not light-hearted like the MCU, but they are incredible films. It is not whether it is dark or not that will generate positive reviews - just make a good movie dammit!
This was inevitable. When you jam at least 3 separate storylines into a two hour film how good can it possibly be. Introducing the Flash. He should’ve had his own film. Green Lantern should’ve been rebooted by now. Give me John Stewart or Guy Gardner. Martian Manhunter. Nowhere to be seen but somehow Cyborg is on the JL? Superman should’ve had at least two films to properly establish his character. Batman should’ve had a film to properly establish his character especially since the general audience is probably still used to Christian Bale. You can’t build a house without constructing the foundation and WBs house fell a while ago.
Peter Parker You are so right. It should have been a Batfleck Solo film. Tease up some things from his universe, e.g.. Nightwing, Jason Todd mystery, some batgirl reserves maybe and given us a good Batman movie. Then let Batman and superman beat each other up. Then you give up Aqua man , wonderwoman solo movies. Then justice league. They could have just peeked over the yard and seen all the success marvel is having but no. They got all impatient. We need the team. We need more $$$$. Greed I think is they elusive villain of the Justice League.
I can tell you why it flopped from a none DCEU fan perspective: Terrible Trailers. I almost always can tell when a movie is gunna flop by the trailers alone. And those trailers were awful in my opinion. They didn’t excit me at all and think that was the case for a lot of causal movie goers.
Danny Rand u know infinity war trailer doesn't strike on first watch ,u have to watch again again to embrace it I guess ,but yeah I definitely loved it on watching it like 2-3 times 😂
This will have no affect on Avengers Infinity War. It simply will not. I want DC to do well. Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman are three of the best characters in comics, period. I want DC to do well. But this failure will have zero impact on what Marvel has coming out. That notion is false.
I'm a massive DC fan. I've grown up on these characters. I've been reading Batman comics for close to 30 years. The current state of DC films will have no effect on what Marvel are doing or how well they are received by audiences. I went to a screening of JL last night, its first weekend of release. At the theatre I went to, the screen next to the one I was seeing JL in, Thor Ragnarok was showing. Thor has been out 2 weeks here in Australia. The cue to get into that was just as big, if not bigger, than the cue to get into Justice League. Think about that. A third film about a Marvel character no one cared about before the MCU started, who's first two films weren't loved by everyone, drew as big a crowd in its 2nd week than the flagship film from DC, which featured the trinity of not just DC, but all comic characters. This makes me very sad, not just because the films about the tent pole characters aren't working, but it also kills off any chance of seeing some of my favourite DC characters in movies, like Swamp Thing, Constantine and Martian Manhunter. Marvel are making coin with fucking Ant-Man! The Guardians of the Galaxy, who the hell knew them apart from comic fans! The logo on the film makes a huge difference to the average movie goer. They know they'll get an enjoyable, well made movie, even if it's about people they don't know, from Marvel. DC can't get 2 of their top 3 right.
Hang on John, with all due respect; WB and DCEU performance at the box office has No Effect whatsoever of the MCU which is owned by Marvel Studios and Disney. Kevin Feige isn't going to drop a SINGLE movie in Phase 3 OR change plans for Phase 4 simply because a Justice League film under-performs. Feige has NEVER once said that DC's films have ANY baring on the MCU. What he DID say is that :"They do their own thing and we will continue to put out good movies for our fans" It's people like Zack Snyder and David Ayer making comparisons between the 2 studios that makes it SEEM like the DCEU is a competitor to the MCU, but the reality is Far from it. The ONLY thing that affects the MCU is how Their movies perform, and Feige's read on their box office and audience feedback. He couldn't care LESS how the DCEU does, and how do we know this? Because the MCU was made LONG BEFORE the DCEU was thought up, and will continue to be done even if the DCEU should up and die tomorrow. It makes no difference to Marvel Studios's plans. Their goal is to see Phase 3 come to its Epic Conclusion and create a Legacy for all others to follow. DC's problem was that it thought it could skirt the formula and short cut their stories and Magically be on par with the MCU. That is just plain Arrogance and they paid for it. Now they need to Re-Evaluate their plan and consider just doing their own thing, even if it means tailing behind Marvel Studios. Marvel Built up TRUST in their fans before making superhero team ups. DC needs to do the same, and build up trust. If they still refuse to do that, then they have NO BUSINESS being in the Cinematic Universe Genre of films. Leave that stuff to the experts.
Darewin, you don't speak for the general audience. Nor do I. As a film goer, I judge each movie on its own merits. I don't care how well any film does. I care if it interests me enough to go invest my time and money, on a case by case basis. It's very simple and one movie never impacts my desire to see or enjoy another. Having said that, when we're talking franchises, I make an exception.
I definitely think that this is true. The MCU has only ever been impacted by what the DCEU does once IMO. It was when the Avenger stopped all civilian casualties in Age Of Ultron. That could have been bcoz of the hate in Man Of Steel. Other than that the MCU is completely different and not at all affected by anything the DCEU does
Back in my teens, there were two TV series that I watched religiously: Deep Space Nine, and Babylon 5. B5 had a significantly lower budget than DS9, but the need to compete pushed them to squeeze every penny of quality they could out of their budget, and made the series better. DS9 was a ripoff of B5 in the first place, but the need to compete pushed the writers to create deeper characters and more dramatic storylines, and made the series better. If the DCEU is making great films, Marvel has to make better films to compete. And with Marvel making great films, DC (should) have to do the same.
You're being hyperbolic. What's going on with the DCEU is entirely of their own making. Why should anyone cheer those movies doing well when they're deliberately making movies that most of the public aren't receptive to? That's no one's fault but Warner Bros, and likely will hurt no one else but them.
Im not a huge dc fan or marvel fan for that matter. I love the mcu very casually as in i really enjoy the films but dont go crazy over them as I do for star wars & i really loved WW but honestly just judging by the JL trailers it just didn’t look that good. I might be in the minority with this but i think its as simple as i dont think the general audience was ever all that interested in it since for me personally it didn’t look good
Affleck has been on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon 3 times since the news broke, and he was asked about it each time. Comic Book fans aren't the only people watching Fallon.
SuperShanko I just can't stand the thought of not getting more movies of this genre. DCEU, for the better or the worse, *made conversations happen.* I hold these things close to my heart and this genuinely broke me. I have my hopes on a small second week drop and logically speaking, I might be right.
Honestly, given Thor Ragnarok's numbers and the view count on The Infinity War trailer recently, whatever failures in the DCEU aren't impacting Marvel.
Look. It seems like no other company than Marvel Studios itself knows how to create a proper cinematic universe. They tried and they failed. Dark Universe, DCEU, X-Verse and many more. But how come WW, Logan, and Deadpool succeed? Because it has nothing to do with other movies, continuity, or whatsoever. So, I say, for those major studios including WB, just focus on creating a good movie, a good one. Forget about crossover. As for Marvel, they better keep Feige until he dead, the guy is a national treasure of Hollywood, if they let him on the loose I bet lots of hungry studios ready to eat him and Marvel Studios will be on suicide watch
Its extremely surreal, I know DC dropping the ball had hurt the film's chances but its still hard to believe justice league, the team-up featuring the biggest comics team and starring superman, batman, wonderwoman, and flash.....will open to way under the films of once way less popular characters.
I don't see how WB/DC failing would affect Marvel. There's no link between the two. Marvel spent 10 years building their brand and developing their characters. This created a fan base. DC is creating movies as if there is already a fan base for these versions of the characters (which are different from what viewers have seen before). Also, not only is DC is trying to cram multiple storylines into single movies. They're using storylines that should be saved for later. Batman vs Superman. Death of Superman. Superman almost dies twice before he's finally killed, and this is the second movie in the franchise. They also need better writers. Wonder Woman had a flawed plot, but it was focused, roughly followed a logical path, and was entertaining. That paid off.
Even if some people decide not to watch anymore “comic book” films, it won’t affect things. 2017 was a pretty good year for comic book movies surpassing $800k. That includes WW, which is basically a spinoff of the horrible BvS. Ragnarok followed the dismal Dark Word in the Thor trilogy, but it also broke $800k. Why did these films do well even though the previous year had garbage like BvS, SS, and Apocalypse? Because people enjoyed them. People are smart enough to know that just because one movie is crap, doesn’t mean all movies of the same type are crap. Movie news reporters say the failure of DC’s movies will affect Marvel’s to create drama and build tension for the storyline. They say JL did poorly because of BvS. But WW did better than expected in spite of BvS. So being a comic book movie doesn’t matter. Audiences can still grow after garbage. What matters whether or not the movie is entertaining to the general audience.
It doesn't actually. Look no further than "Thor: Ragnarok". Even if Marvel released that movie a month after Justice League, it would still make over $800 mil. If it's a good quality movie from a well known brand, it will sell itself.
It's this simple: the foundation was faulty from the beginning. Warner bros/D.C. rushed the universe from the start. All these amazing character's needed their own time to grow and connect with the fan's. Look at Marvel -- an organic, efficient development of narrative from the first Iron man on.
The film is heading in the right direction?! And just how long are we supposed to wait? We've had 5 films already!!!! They should've had this nailed down by (at least) the third film!
Fire the exec who didn’t listen and kept Snyder as the guiding director of this universe. Why couldn’t they just stick with the character we knew from the comics and animated series. They started off trying to make a dark knight Superman. No one wants to see emo Superman. That isn’t the Superman anyone knows. He’s suppose to be positive. They tried to fix him in JL, but no one can unsee the two previous movie with him. Thank goodness, Captain America has stepped into that positive role in the comic book genre.
when you say no one wanted to see a dark superman you should rethink about the way your word you sentence, because there are some people that do like a dark superman via Injustice: Gods among us, don't knock a studio for trying something different, yes it failed but at least they tried
Alex Santiago - That ONLY works as an Injustice storyline, not as Superman all day every day. I would like to see that too, but this cherry picked Justice League is not how you do it.
I understand i wasn't knocking him for not having a more joyful superman, was just saying there are some people that do like a darker superman, I am honestly for both but yes like you said it IS an injustice storyline, but with good writing and character development either way could work
havok6280 but you don't consider the international box office when talking about the opening weekend... no point trying to put a positive spin on this, it's a shocking catastrophe and one I think we all want to forget as comic book fans.
Tom Grocutt the titanic (the boat not the movie) was a catastrophe. This is a disappointment for WB. Let's see how it does over a holiday weekend with no competition before everyone decides the sky is falling... International money matters more for the record. Looks at the tranformers and fast and furious franchises.
Diego MV I totally understand the people not agreeing with me, I wouldn't have been surprised at all if I was wrong. I just took into account the popularity of the MCU, thor's superior trailers/ marketing campaign and the amount of views it got, the previous DCEU movie performance and the fact that the general audience didn't know the justice league brand name as much as the avengers or xmen. Not to mention some of the bad press before hand about ben affleck and other things surrounding this movie.
The CW has just made a superhero 'movie' the right way. Crises on Earth X... INCREDIBLE!!! Without commercials, the 2 hour and 44 minute length was just perfect and kicks Justice League's ass!
It is simple. Movies are expensive these days and people don't want to pay to see a bad movie.They are being more selective with what they choose to see.
Wabbajam Whooy not true I️ see people all the time spending money to see the lowest crappiest movies. People just have bad taste. I️ know this cause I️ worked in a theater in LA for 2 years. LA is a massive Hollywood market so I️ can generalize the whole country’s movie taste based on my experience alone
andrew naranjo Maybe I'm wrong but isn't LA one of the most visited place in America? and don't most people want to see a movie in LA since it's the capital of cinema?, so I guess that's why you see people watching crappy movies there since it's part of the experience cause in other places there aren't many people watching crappy movie i think
Wabbajam Whooy also there's tons of new apps and add ons like kodi, you can wait maybe just a week to get a perfect quality film for free. Any film that is. Also the critics. People are seeing the rotten tomatoes score and saying it's bad when they don't even see it. All movies should set lower standards in the box office. Any movie.
totally agree especially if there are two superhero movies that are in theaters like damn which one i'm i going to support a franchise that has taken there time and has wanted to make good movies or a movie that in the long run doesnt mean anything
Tone and darkness IS/WAS a problem. That has ALWAYS been amongst the biggest complaints. No one wants a dreary, depressed, sullen, Superman, and comic book world. People want fun, hopeful, exciting, and entertaining. Most people are not entertained with gloomy sky`s, darkness, and rain.
Chris Scorpio its about it being a good movie, wonderwoman was a good film, so no one cared if the tone was too light or too dark. Bvs was trash thats why ppl moaned, so is justice league
It wasn't the tone much as the fund bring terrible. If argue the dark Knight was just as dark in tone but it was a good film. The Winter Soldier was dark in tone..... But a well crafted film. MOS was just ok the Bvs and suicide squad were just examples of lazy filmmaking.
kilr gecko The general audience didn't tell WB to turn into a comedy,just to turn down the depressing parts. There is a huge middle ground between depressing and comedic
Roy Latham bruh, just make a cohere film with good story, good dialogue, fewer plot holes and character development. The tone means shit. Justice league har none of that. It wasn't the tone it was everything else. We have seen good movies with light tones and good movies with dark tones. Do u know what made them good not the tone but everything else in the movie. It doesnt matter if JL was light or dark, everything else was poor, down to the cgi and the exposition dump.
WB/DC should now just get rid of the shared universe thing, Let Mat Reeves make his trilogy independent of anything, make man of steel 2, this would provide a fresh contrast to Marvel, thia whole shit has happened because because they rushed to get this shared universe going.
They didn't build a foundation at all. They tried to reverse engineer a universe, held their customers in contempt, and of course it finally bit them. When people (real people, not loud internet-comment-only nerds) think DCEU, we think of Snyder's neck-snapping Super-insecure man. That was never my Superman. I left those movies feeling like he snapped my neck. Dark and gritty 300-esque slaughterers wearing DC cosplay is not why I pay big money to go to the theater. Seems like WB execs saw Marvel's success, started licking their chops, wanted easy money, and ended up paying the price. Marvel earned their audience slowly. WB did not. I hope they don't give up tho. Please give me MY iconic Superman. (I also still want an awesome Batfleck, just not as PsychoBat.) [edit: spelling/clarity)
Oh, yeah. And randomly and pointlessly killing Jimmy Olson...because, ya know, jokes...and fun. Seriously? To quote a famous green guy, "This is why you failed."
They gave Snyder too much control over the universe. Its obvious they never had a concrete plan at all. They just winged it and let the directors create the "universe".
They should give Man of Steel 2 to Joss Whedon. The scenes he added to Justice League gave Superman some actual character. Superman actually smiled for once in a Joss Whedon scene.
The "DC and Marvel are tied together" argument doesn't work when Thor just came out 2 weeks ago and overperformed. The problem is Zack Snyder and his vision is terrible. Marvel is fine just like Wonder Woman is fine, you make a quality film people will watch it, you make terrible movies people dont. It's that simple.
Amien Fadhillah I have high hopes for Aquaman considering James Wan is directing. But at this point I don't know if Aquaman being good is enough to save them.
Nah, Aquaman didn't even tease enough interest. If anything, it'd be a Flashpoint movie, which Snyder has already left blueprints for in that Nighmare scene from BvS. But even Ezra's Flash has come out a little underwhelming.... I don't care at this point, i just like epic movies...
justice league was 5 years too late. You can’t make a standard comic book movie anymore. You have studios like fox, sony and disney mixing their movies into sub genres while DC is recycling the same plot we’ve seen countless times.
Big Z Antman was more comedy than heist movie.And Civil War psychological thriller? XD it was action.What was psychological? The fight of two friends and Zemo plan? Then BvS is psychological as well because CW had similiar plot.
WB just need to do what Fox is doing, low budget films with a totally new spin, tired of these end of the world superhero movies, cancel Suicide Squad 2, and hurry up with batman and Death stroke films
Deric James There's nothing to me to think the film can be good, if they make it a low budget more grounded ops team film yes but now they're adding Black Adam, another God vs a low powered villains it's stupid
I do wanna see a cool superman movie. Doesn't have to be a world end scenario, but I want to see him at full strength. Zack Snyder didn't get the character and story right, but some of his actions scenes involving Superman were really great
I love what Fox did with Deadpool and Logan. I loved Wonder Woman and liked Suicide Squad and Justice League but primarily for the characters (not the stories). DC/WB may do well to try what Fox did because the amount of money that they are spending on these movies ($300 million? R U Effing kidding me?) is ridiculous.
I can't agree with one thing. That the average movie goer does not care if that's MCU, DCEU or FOX... I thought so until this month. Just look at how's Thor Ragnarok doing, it has great numbers, 2 weeks later JL comes out and it's a flop. Why? People are getting more and more aware of what they are getting, few years ago sure, I was talking with my friends and none of them had clue why exatly can't Iron Man be in the Batman movie etc... But now they do. They know that the same people that are behind for example Suicide Squad now have sth to do with JL. Same thing for the Thor - they know it's a guy from Avengers and that they enjoyed this one. Sure - big part of audience is still clueless, but awareness is getting bigger and bigger every year, at least from what I see around me, just my opinion.
How does Warner Bros./DC rebound from this? Simple. Make the solo films, and make them contained and great! Wonder Woman 2, Aquaman, Flash, Shazam, Man of Steel 2, The Batman, Green Lantern. AND THEN, make a PROPER Justice League film with the original seven members: Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern AND Martian Manhunter. That's how you increase anticipation and build hype: make solo films and build up to the team.
i could go along with most of his performance, but the jolly rancher thing didn't work in the slightest. Maybe the ding ding ding part too, but he had pathos, i liked his take better than Kevin Spacey's (and it has nothign to do with recent events.)
1) Hire more people who actually like comic books, or are at least willing to do their research to understand them 2) Stop relying on fans. Fans alone will not carry a movie to mainstream success. I think you are over estimating how many 'fans' there are. Not all fans are equal and not all rush out the first day or weekend. Just because Batman, Superman, or 'hero of choice' is in a movie isn't enough for a general audience, especially when they have seen these characters in movies/tv/games for decades now, and probably done better. Clever marketing, and then delivering on expectations = success. 3) Focus on characters, they are what will carry these movies - the main positive take away from JL is that people liked the characters, and so were willing to forgive a really uninspired plot and villain, at least for the most part. To keep good will and forward momentum, you need the audience (not just the fans) to want to see more of these characters, regardless of villain or story. You want to create NEW fans, at least for the movie versions of these characters. If nothing else, Marvel understood that much and got it right. 4) Plot and villain - yeah they are important too. BvS was overly complicated, JL was too generic, SS made no sense... WW is proof that a good focused serviceable script is all you really need. 5) Take risk. It is fine to play around with the characters, these characters have been around a while, so changes are needed... just maintain a reasonable expectation and budget accordingly. If you want to hire someone like Snyder who has an idea for these characters that might not be 'mainstream' friendly... fine, great - just don't give him a huge budget and assume universal mainstream attendance and approval... It might work, it might not - but don't assume it will work, especially with well established characters. The blame for these 'failures' isn't on the director for make a 'bad' movie, or the audience for 'not' getting it. With a smaller budget, these movies would have been considered a success, they made lots of money, just not enough money. The true blame is on the studio who took a foolish risk by throwing huge $ assuming huge returns because, it's Batman/Superman, it can't fail! 6) Again, cut the budget for all these movies - there is no need to spend so much that $96 million is considered a failure! Ridiculous. You only spend that kinda of $ if necessary, and only when you have earned the right (gained audience loyalty) to take that risk. Star Wars is a perfect example, they could spend less, but right now they have that audience loyalty so they can afford to spend more and it not be as big a risk. Once it is, those budgets will start to drop.
MAN! You explained it so well. I agree to everything u wrote. And I just wanted to tell you that I think you analysed the situation way better than John did in the entire video. 👏👏👏
Give me a break. A year ago you were gushing over WB management. Even after the debacle with Flash, The Batman and Suicide Squad 2 you still chearleading WB. Now you jumped on the bandwagon. At least admit you were wrong. As for Marvel, they are such a strong brand they no longer have to worry how other superhero movies do. It's like saying bad Sci Fi hurts Star Wars which is nonsense.
Dimitris Bright bull he said the same thing about bvs that it would hurt civil war it made over a billion with a 90 score marvel will be OK no matter what happens with DC good or bad
What needs to happen is for Black Panther to be good. It’s next up. In three months. Also if Star Wars is a massive success it can take heat of sci fi/genre films and audiences not in the 1% of geekdom will have something else to think about.
it may be true years ago. not anymore. people know the marvel brand now. that logo is red and loud af and their movies may not be 'deep' for some people but always entertaining for most people. Only movie that can f marvel studios is a marvel studios movie.
This is not bad for all comic book movie fans, its actually good. It means that just because you have a good character in the movie doesn't mean the movie is good. You've got to earn it. Look at what Avengers did. Look at Logan. They didn't just have good characters, they were masterpieces. DC hasn't earned that what so ever. This is equated to Transformers movie opening low. Thats only a good thing. Time for Hollywood to learn to stop making trash.
My family and I are more excited to see Coco than justice league and we’re all adults now, no kids. I’m not a big comic book fan but loved the Nolan movies and I actually like the Batman world way more than anything from marvel, aside from X-men. But I was not looking forward to this movie after seeing BVS and suicide squad, god that was awful (with a few funny scenes). So as a casual comic book movie fan, they didn’t win me over and obviously a lot of people have the same point of view or opinion. Maybe I’ll catch it next week.
I agree that the DCEU needs a Kevin Feige type figure, who not only has great business and creative nouse, but they must also have the passion AND knowledge of a DC Comics and DC Cartoons fan. There is scope for cheaper AND better DC films. We need more alter ego time; Clark Kent being a great reporter, Bruce Wayne being the world's greatest detective etc.
300 million budget and 150 million in marketing !? That means what, It needs to break-even is around 850-900 million? 11:00 I'm not sure if it's bad for all comicbook movies....Thor is crushing it, WW crushed it, Logan & Homecoming crushed it. Deadpool 2 & Black Panther will do great. People just didn't care about JL.
Weapon X The break even point of movies is traditionally said to be 2- 2.5 times the "negative cost" (an obsolete term; they should probably call it the "data- rendering cost" now. ) That's where he's getting that figure.
I disagree with your statement, Mr. Campea, regarding the possible impact of a bad DCEU film on Marvel. Marvel has spent nearly a decade building up their brand. The consuming public has been well-trained by Disney to expect quality when they see that red card come up boldly identifying it as a MARVEL movie. The value in Marvel's trademark is secure thanks to consistent quality of the product. What the WB has managed to do is tarnish the DC brand with underwhelming movies. Numbers on the early movies were high because of the work DC had done over the prior decades with its properties. WB has undone that and it has started to show in the numbers. WB's failures will not impact Disney/Marvel one iota.
I agree. I believe Feige's statement was a simple PR maneuver, not something to be taken as gospel. Clearly the failures of WB and FOX have done nothing to impact Marvel.
John, I have to disagree with you about the symbiotic relationship you think DC and Marvel movies have with one another. My wife has not wanted to see a single Comic book movie since Batman vs Superman. I had to drag her to see Thor 3, which she loved. As a movie guy, I'm happy to see DC fail now, because I don't want them making any more crappy movies. Man of Steel was great, buy BvS and Suicide Squad were vomit inducing. I still havn't even seen Justice League or Wonder Woman because we lost all faith in WB.
Moonawrathic my brother went to watch BvS with me and my friend and he hated it so much he didnt go see civil war and dr strange with us after :( lol bvs ruined alot of ppls movie going experience when it comes to comic book films
Moonawrathic i also HATED BVS and SS, but loved Wonder Woman. It is so different than the other DCEU movies, the movie is filled with the hope and goodness of Wonder Woman! Her supporting cast are all really likeable and fun! The acting is really good especially Chris Pine as Steve Trevor! See the movie, you will be surprised that you liked it!
Moonawrathic doesn't that prove his point? Your wife hated BvS, and that made her not even want to see Thor despite her later finding out she loved it.
Because she's your wife and not a comic-book reader? The general public would always prefer a lighter toned movie. That is why Marvel is able to attract people.
Oh c'mon, people aren't idiots, John. They know the difference between Marvel and DC. If they didn't and only looked at the genre, do you really think JL would only make 96 mil? Your statement of divisive after divisive films causing JL's downfall supports what I'm saying here (of people not only looking at the genre but at the studios)
Another person talking condescendingly to the "general audience". They aren't stupid, when I was 5 I knew the difference between Marvel and DC, keep in mind all the knowledge I had acquired were from some dumb videos on YT
Honestly, have you heard any "general audience" say 'Where's batman? I thought this was an avengers film"? NO, because they know the difference. What about people saying "Where's Hulk? I thought this was Justice League"
Don't get complacent, I'm a massive MUC fan, but bad comic-book movies do have an effect on other comic-book movies coming out, people don't really care that much about the two different companies, they see them as two sides of the some coin. One day Marvel will make a bad movie, and we need to be prepared.
I disagree that it doing bad is bad for comic book movies . If anything it is good as it shows the people want more from or better movies . Sony failing at Spider-Man lead to Spider-Man homecoming. Fox failing at X-men and stand alone wolverine movies lead to first class, days of future past and Logan . If anything if it kept doing well they would of kept making these mediocre to bad movies
Antonius Robertus did you see x3 ? Which lead to no new X-men movies for years and took first class to reboot the franchise. Or you going to ignore that ?
Antonius Robertus are you seriously saying it wasn’t horrible and set back the franchise? Are you also saying they weren’t going to make anymore? They would let the rights go back to marvel? Tell me you know better
I don’t think the Marvel/DC relationship is that symbiotic. Yes there definitely is some correlation but I don’t thinks it as much as you think. Thor just opened 2 weeks prior and made over $120 million opening weekend and it was received very positively. So based off that then JL should have opened very strongly as well because Thor was a positive experience for CBM and benefited the genre. I know a lot of general moviegoers don’t know/care about Marvel vs DC but they can at least recognize the franchises and characters that they belong to. JL was advertised as basically a direct sequel to BvS which most people didn’t enjoy therefore didn’t bother to see this movie. Just because people didn’t like this movie doesn’t change their opinions about ALL CBMs. People still liked Civil War and Homecoming and all those characters, therefore they will still come to see the next installment (aka IW)
I agree. John is too obsessed with this 'symbiotic' shtick. Sure, there might be some truth to it - in the very long run if the general audience consistently see the same characters handled in the same way they might grow tired of it. However, it's the responsibility of Marvel is to make sure that they keep their movies as fresh as possible in the eyes of critics and the general audience. So far they've accomplished that. They've not had an identical tone in their movies regardless what radical DC fanboys might say. You have much more serious movies like Winter Soldier and Civil War to an extent. On the other hand, you have fun and self-aware movies like Ant-Man, Ragnarok and Guardians. They've also consistently changed up the sub-genres of all of their movies. If the relationship was as symbiotic as John suggest then the divisiveness of BvS or Suicide Squad would have had a strong negative impact on Homecoming and Ragnarok. They didn't though. Homecoming - based on a character we've seen three different iterations of in less than ten years - was able to out-gross the best movie in the DCEU. Indicating that the general audience is not tired of Marvel films yet - not by a long-shot.
Release Green Lantern, Catwoman, Wolverine Origins, Xmen 3, TASM2 and Suicide Squad in one year and see if the movies released next year would do well.
SteelCurtain MCOC you are part of the problem. Because you don’t have an opinion of your own. WTH DOES MARVEL HAVE TO WITH DC? Is an apple a banana? Learn to appreciate it! Go see marvel movies then jackass!
With DC movies not being made then the Saturation of Comicbook films will fall. But Marvel did well before DC got this irrational boner for the money and success. Marvel will be fine. Look at the games console market. If one console starts lagging behind the other zips forward, they don’t all fail.
Why would this affect anything of Marvel? Remember BvS? It didn't break a billion too, yet Civil war after bvs did. It's not superhero movies having a problem. It's dc and dc alone.
Maybe they should have asked Marvel if they could lend them Iron Man or Spider Man lol. Then they wouldn't be having such trouble getting China to watch this movie.
I saw Justice League earlier this tonight. It was fucking terrible. Glaring errors, obviously poor writing, poor editing. There was “tutting” in the audience in the theatre. Superman was played by Hugo Weaving all of a sudden. Marvel knew what they were doing, DC chased the success and money blindly. Foolish, a shame. But I found JL just terrible.
You know, it seems like a no brainer that if you put superman and batman together it's going to be a home run but we've seen so many incarnations of these characters, we've seen them done over and over. Marvel started it's cinematic universe with The Hulk (it's most popular character it had rights to at the time) and that movie bombed so bad it's hardly considered MCU cannon. Then they bought in a less known fringe character in Iron Man and things took off. Maybe the key in building a new universe is to focus on new characters that audiences can meet and fall in love with for the first time and then bring in the crowd favorites for support like how Marvel uses the Hulk now. DCEU's most successful movie so far was Wonder Woman and we'd never seen a proper movie version of her. Maybe that's why.
Dirk Walker Pretty much agree with you, but Iron Man actually came out before The Incredible Hulk. Also the reason most people don't consider TIH to be canon is due to the recasting of Bruce Banner, because Marvel took the role from Edward Norton and gave it to Mark Ruffalo.
I still think wonder woman was kind of overrated cause people were sympathizing with dceu and desperately wanted them to do good, plus wb set the bar low with their previous films. Classic superhero movie on 3 acts with an obvious love interest, doesnt bring anything new to the table
I agree that it’s overrated but I don’t think it had anything to do with any kind of sympathy for WB. Wonder Woman got all support it did because it had a female lead.
I don't see how having a female lead generating ticket sales is a bad thing. So did Thor Ragnarok do so well because it had a male lead? Or put another way, Ghost in the Shell had a female lead--didn't help it. What was the difference? Oh maybe general audiences don't care about The Major but do think Wonder Woman is great. Did you want the Wonder Woman movie should have a male lead?
WW was solidly "good," no film can be "great" without a solid 3rd act and a villain actually worth a spit. JL looked like a video game. And now, I hear that there are 3 Macguffins (Motherboxes) that need to be collected/protected, against a horned [diablo] stand-in who looks like 2nd-Gen XBox 360 games from 2nd-Tier developers. Who cares? Wonder Woman is not "hot enough." Batman is not "tough enough," and Superman is beyond saving in my mind. You can't even think for ten minutes about WW's plot without unraveling just how tenuous it is... Here, food for thought: WW read an entire dozen-book volume of Scientific sexuality by Blah, blah...but she doesn't know that people hold hands? She's made of clay...seriously? The Greek Gods are REAL, but the second-rate Howling Commandos aren't SHITTING THEMSELVES? Don't even get me started on Doctor Poison giving Baron von Stand-in a drug to purposely mislead the audience about a "reveal" that was so predictable and so POORLY executed...ugh. So then what does WB do? They take ARES from WW and make him the Big Bad in JL! Oh, I'm sorry, his name is "Steppenwolf" now...and he's probably EQUALLY as effective as ARES (what was Ares' actual GOAL even?).
Yes, going from a “Flaming Dumpster” to a “Dumpster that’s NOT on Fire” is considered “heading in the right direction”, but it doesn’t give me any hope for the future.
11:00 I'm so confused why this impacts the comicbook genre. Thor just opened to way more than what was predicted. Using your logic Thor huge opening and great reviews should have helped JL. People do know the difference. Fantastic Four flopping didn't hurt other comicbook movies. X-Men Apocalypse didn't hurt Logan. You are wrong.
The problem is simple. WB have alienated the non-comic-book-fans, of whom make up 99% of the audience for these types of movies. I don't read comic books, but I do like superhero movies. However, I just feel like these DC movies were made purely for the comic-book fans, and NOT the general movie going fans.
I think pulling the plug is an appealing idea but at the same time look at what they have coming up: Aquaman (a near finished film that will almost definitely be released), Shazam (a new character that can be distanced from the rest of the stink of the DCEU), Suicide Squad 2 (a sequel to a financially very successful film with already established/popular characters) and Wonder Woman 2 (a sequel to what is probably the franchise's biggest success). As much of a disappointment as Justice League is I think DC/WB should just take the hit and keep moving forward. The film was made under horrible, unfortunate circumstances and yet many people are saying it's a step in the right direction. I say keep going for now.
Adam Moore like I said use flash point as a soft reboot changing direction while maintaining the actors and wiping away the previous movies going forward
Sorry, but WB and DC can't keep pushing forward if this is all they have. They need to throw the script literally out the window and look for some introspection. After awful movie after awful movie making WB lose tons of money, and the overall downward trend of the DC film universe, i can't understand why anyone would believe they should keep soldiering on just because "they have too much invested in this." The DCEU is a radioactive crater to anyone outside the circle of rabid fanboy apologists that refuse to see anything wrong with their fandom and prefer to blame everyone else except the people making these crap movies. Something HAS to change, because people do NOT like what's coming out of the WB/DCEU.
Am I the only one who thinks they actually saw it coming? Between the recent comments by Henry Cavill, Whedon agreeing that the villain is worthless and Affleck openly admitting that he wants out, it feels like there was 0 enthusiasm for this movie from the people who made it, and they put it out just to be done with it.
Black Panther is up next so we will see if there's any negative effects or data to glean from its performance. Personally, that cast and that director makes me wet so I'm pretty confident. JL failed because those trailers looked like BvS and no amount of fake excitement from fanboys could fool general audiences otherwise.
Anna shafer Avengers IW trailer at least proves there's still pants tightening excitement and widespread interest in the "genre", so Campea's conjecture of JL's stink Pigpening mist on future films is wrong for now.
I would disagree with John. Marvel is like Apple now while all the other comic book movies are like Android. If Android does bad it doesn't hurt Apple. Marvel's Brand stands on its own.
TTx04xCOBRA and how exactly does your rebuttal refute my statement on brand independence? Apple is also beating Samsung on profits bgr.com/2017/10/12/apple-vs-samsung-sales-2017-iphone-7/
Even though Apple makes more on profits. Android owns more than 80% of the global mobile market share. Android is doing better than iOS if you don’t know.
"Justice League bombing will hurt the comic book movie industry. That's a fact. This hurts Marvel!" "Black Panther one of the biggest openings of all time. On the way to a billion dollars."
Justice league didn't do as good as BvS because so many people already decided JL was going to suck before it even came out. So many people were calling it a failure before they seen it and it would appear they didn't even go to see it.
Ken Schell that’s funny, so many people used to ridicule Marvel for making Guardians or Ant Man or Doctor Stranger or even when they started with Iron Man, they were told all of those properties were failures nobody would care to see....yet Marvel proved them all wrong So why can’t DC do the same?
The Terminator, a dominatrix, and Daredevil team up with Prince Namor and Speedball to fight...I don't know, Loki maybe? They have to stop him from assembling the triforce. Things look bleak until a zombie meets his old girlfriend then comes to help. Then the monster bugs fly away and the Russian family is okay. 10/10.
Justice League might have looked better if it didn’t cost 300 MILLION DOLLARS! Just to compare: Avengers- $207m on a $220m Budget Justice League- $96m on a $300m Budget Personally, I feel that since WB lost Harry Potter; They’ve been desperate for a big budget franchise (DCEU, Pan, King Arthur, Jupiter Ascending, Legend of Tarzan, Etc.)
Gigantic box office numbers and audience approval just months after this, with Marvel's Black Panther and Avengers: Infinity War. So no, there isn't comic book movie fatigue. It's just that Justice League was a Frankenstein patchwork of a mediocre movie, and people may have stopped believing in the DCEU.
John I’m sorry but Avengers wouldn’t have opened to 200 million had their been only Iron Man 1 and no solo movies from Captain America Thor or Hulk. They build up an audience and worked out kinks and mistakes before their big epic movie. Justice League should have come out after stand-alone movies
Roland P. He Incredible Hulk was a part of the MCU. Edward Norton’s behind the scenes drama got him replaced by Mark Ruffalo for the Avengers movie. I am talking about solo movies to get to know Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg in their own movies before throwing them into Justice League. Even this version of Batman didn’t get a solo movie first. It would have made a difference. Avengers opening success proves that
Black Widow and Scarlet Witch did have more than a 15-second cameo in theh movies they were introduced, though. And Hawkeye's cameo in Thor was enough background for his role in The Avengers where he got further character development. Making solo films is not a "Marvel formula." It's all about testing what works for your market. The solo movie approach is to the benefit of the studio. To make an event film (like JL and Avengers) work, they must first learn what general audience respond to from each of the franchise films. Marvel saw the Phase 1 movies and picked out the most interesting parts of each heroes. They saw which heroes needed more screen time and which one's to retool. Without a more significant role (at least 5 mins of screen time) in previous movies, DC has no idea how the audience is going to respond to Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman especially since these incarnations are very different from what the audience has seen before. One more benefit of doing solo movies first is escalation. You can do away with world-ending conflicts on solo movies and make them more personal and character-centric. The event movies can be more story-centric with apocalyptic events.
When you get right down to it the Justice League movie was just ok. Was not great or terrible just seriously ok. HUGE disappointment and I am surprised it made 96 million.
I'm stopping at 10:48 to write this and then I'll continue. While my estimate was 115-125 range, even to find out that was too high is a shock. That said...here's the questions I *should* ask: How many films in the last ten years have opened the weekend before Turkey day to a take of over 100 million? What happens in the next two weeks/ does the film have legs and/or what will the dropoff be like? Was the marketing botched to the point where general moviegoers might "skip" the film for now? The "S" was in all the ads and posters but no Superman, many MANY scenes in the trailers never made it to the final cut - the teaser shots that had everyone buzzing. AWOL. (There are videos on this even if you did not see the film, and since not part of the said film are no longer spoilers) Was withholding the Rotten Tomatoes meter a great move, a good move or a COMPLETELY DUMB ONE? (Guess what I think) Okay. Now I want to get back to my "high" estimate. The question that should be asked of me is "why would I think that" if most other fans are hoping for higher numbers? Here's my answers: I thought the marketing was odd. (no Superman but you knew Superman would be back) Sorry, folks. I think Cyborg is a lame character for live action. Another Alien Invasion. With Superheroes. With Joss Whedon. I'm not a fan of Ezra Miller, but I like The Flash. I watch The Flash for free on TV. Steppenwolf isn't impressive. I don't pay too much attention to critics. Unless the studio WANTS me to. When early buzz is dead. when the RT results are held back and I got to tune in to a streaming show to find out what it is , it gives me pause. I feel like not I not only want to skip the show, but maybe...I should skip the movie and wait. ....which is exactly what I did.
John. I heard you comment what WB executives are saying in their meetings. How do you know this? Did they putting the meeting notes online? Send link please.
exactly, even marvel studios film is getting stale for me, phrase one was good (black panther LOOK awesome too), right now i am more interested in getting the martin scorsese joker movie..... i don't need a cohesive universe for me to enjoy my comic book movies............ I just wan a good unique take on my superheroes, make it interesting.
I don't think you should link them all up like that. I say that Marvel and DC are less in a symbiotic relationship (what kills one will kill the other). But more like being part of the same genus but a different species. Mainstream audiences DO know the difference between DC and Marvel for the most part. It's been ingrained in American pop culture for decades. They know the differences in their movies too. If they were truly in a symbiotic relationship, Marvel's fantastic reviews and box office haul would be giving DC a near immediate boost. But instead, while one continues to succeed, the other one is stumbling. Marvel was honestly doing completely fine even BEFORE the DCEU even started. I'd say actually that both groups are simply part of one genus, one genre known as comic book movies. Similarly as there is the romance genre or the swashbuckler genre, if one movie or even set of movies in that genre fails, it doesn't effect the success of a different franchise set within the same genre. I think people can tell the difference between a Marvel and a DC movie, and while main audiences continue to what to see the next chapter in the Marvel cinematic tv show, they have been burned by DC while it was in its infancy and so are less inclined to give it another chance.
With the exception of Man of Steel and Wonder Woman, I think the other movies in the DCEU are pretty fucking bad. They should make Flashpoint and use it to reboot the universe. If it continues to fail, then they should abandon the cinematic universe and just do stand-alones.
Just because DC movies aren't good doesn't mean people are going to stop seeing comic book movies. People can actually tell the difference between Marvel and DC movies you know. I like both DC and Marvel (I know, what a shock), but DC movies are just shit. I feel like their animated and comic books are are better, but Marvel know what they're doing on the big screen. The only BAD movie I can remember from Marvel was Thor: 2. Some were average but for the most part they're good. So people have faith in Marvel and Kevin Feige. So just because DC is doing bad, doesn't mean Marvel are going to be bad. I personally didn't mind JL. It wasn't good but wasn't bad. I would give it a 6.5/10 and to me, that's average. I thought Thor: Ragnarok was 8 or 8.5/10. I don't know why people are mad at Thor. SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER! I thought they could have made the destruction of Asgard and the death of Odin a bit more dramatic and emotional, but they did say Asgard isn't a place but the people. I thought that was a good enough explanation. I genuinly thought it was hilarious not like when the Flash falls down and lands on top of Wonder Woman. That was cringe worthy. Everybody has their opinion but to me, the movie should have been well over 2 hours. For a Batman movie, we don't need it to be, because everybody knows the origin of Batman. You can literally watch Batman Begins if you don't. So all they have to do is focus on the villain, and then show the conflict between the 2. There were 3 new heroes and a villain JL had to focus on. They DCU was poorly planned and executed. I think they should reboot with Flashpoint.
John, with all due respect, I disagree with your assertion that Marvel and DC have a symbiotic relationship. DC has been making divisive films with their best known characters for years while contemporaneously Marvel has been cranking out hits with lesser known characters like Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man and Deadpool. I have yet to see ANY proof that the bombing of one superhero film was the proximate cause of the underperformance of another. If you have, please provide us with an example. I love your podcast, John, but I disagree with this premise.
Marvel took characters I did not care about and made me care. DC took characters I care about and made me not care.
Alexander Dixokov true story
Damn that's poetry right there.
you’re absolutely right sir
truth be told, marvel is playing their strengh in mcu. marvel characters had always the human element in them, whereas dc they are god like beings,so over there its hard to relate. thats why JLU cartoon was awesome but marvel cartoons tend to be so so,for cartoons you want the splash thing more then dynamics and that works better with DC then marvel.
in movies its the oposite you want to care about the characters otherwise the story doesnt matter.
This
Calling marvel fans corporate fanboys is a really dumb insult. WB is a corporation. That corporation has their hands all over this property. The only difference is the Disney corrosion is good at what they do and the WB corporation isn't.
Heres how DC executives think
christopher nolans dark knight trilogy becomes a huge hit,
WB- "Ok, lets start a movie universe based on a dark and realistic tone".
man of steel and BvS divides audience
WB- "oh, people didnt like it?Ok, lets cut justice league within 2 hrs and make batman tell jokes".
audience- fuck u!.
THIS EXACT THING HAPPENED WITH BATMAN MOVIES YEARS AGO.remember batman and robin?Yeah. these fools still havent learned their lesson.its not about the tone or length or comedy. Its about making a good movie.
I would have been fine with a pure Batman detective movie just dealing with him trying to catch Victor Zsasz... Has to use his brains instead of muscles... WB has zero clue what fans really want...
Beavernator - No more Batman, no more Superman. That's the problem with WB, they don't use their other characters. Also, movie studios are so far removed and out of touch with society they don't know what people want.
You hit the nail right on the head man. If anything they should just have soldiered on with justice league in Snyders vision then had other directors do the solo movies and tried to work on the writing and plot. When you make a good movie people will come to watch it regardless of the characters in it or even the marketing. The movie will do well just on word of mouth alone.
Agreed. Warner Bros pissed all over Batman in the 90s and they're doing the same with the DCEU now. The other problem is Zack Snyder and his choppy film making. The guy does a good Batman I'll give him that, but that's only due to the character already fitting in with the world he wants. The trouble is, that tone doesn't fit with anyone else, especially Superman, and the films being poorly tacked together is the final nail in the coffin. He should just give everything to Patty Jenkins and Joss Whedon and stay on as a producer only.
sabari nath Word dude. Logan and Nolan's Batman trilogy are not light-hearted like the MCU, but they are incredible films. It is not whether it is dark or not that will generate positive reviews - just make a good movie dammit!
This was inevitable. When you jam at least 3 separate storylines into a two hour film how good can it possibly be. Introducing the Flash. He should’ve had his own film. Green Lantern should’ve been rebooted by now. Give me John Stewart or Guy Gardner. Martian Manhunter. Nowhere to be seen but somehow Cyborg is on the JL? Superman should’ve had at least two films to properly establish his character. Batman should’ve had a film to properly establish his character especially since the general audience is probably still used to Christian Bale. You can’t build a house without constructing the foundation and WBs house fell a while ago.
Peter Parker could not agree more. Spot on
This was based on the New 52 with Geoff Johns even involved what you think was gonna happen?
Peter Parker You are so right. It should have been a Batfleck Solo film. Tease up some things from his universe, e.g.. Nightwing, Jason Todd mystery, some batgirl reserves maybe and given us a good Batman movie. Then let Batman and superman beat each other up. Then you give up Aqua man , wonderwoman solo movies. Then justice league. They could have just peeked over the yard and seen all the success marvel is having but no. They got all impatient. We need the team. We need more $$$$. Greed I think is they elusive villain of the Justice League.
thelastcashew Truth
DC right now....*everything falling apart*...”this is fine😌😁😅everything is just fine”
I can tell you why it flopped from a none DCEU fan perspective: Terrible Trailers. I almost always can tell when a movie is gunna flop by the trailers alone. And those trailers were awful in my opinion. They didn’t excit me at all and think that was the case for a lot of causal movie goers.
Carsten Helvie yeah trailers weren’t great, i went to see it once and thought it was more solid than bvs
Carsten Helvie totally agree dude
I had that vibe with infinity war trailer too .but hope it will live up to expectations and I want to believe in Russo brothers
Palash Chandrakar Man you're really in the minority lol.
Danny Rand u know infinity war trailer doesn't strike on first watch ,u have to watch again again to embrace it I guess ,but yeah I definitely loved it on watching it like 2-3 times 😂
This will have no affect on Avengers Infinity War. It simply will not. I want DC to do well. Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman are three of the best characters in comics, period. I want DC to do well. But this failure will have zero impact on what Marvel has coming out. That notion is false.
I'm a massive DC fan. I've grown up on these characters. I've been reading Batman comics for close to 30 years. The current state of DC films will have no effect on what Marvel are doing or how well they are received by audiences. I went to a screening of JL last night, its first weekend of release. At the theatre I went to, the screen next to the one I was seeing JL in, Thor Ragnarok was showing. Thor has been out 2 weeks here in Australia. The cue to get into that was just as big, if not bigger, than the cue to get into Justice League. Think about that. A third film about a Marvel character no one cared about before the MCU started, who's first two films weren't loved by everyone, drew as big a crowd in its 2nd week than the flagship film from DC, which featured the trinity of not just DC, but all comic characters. This makes me very sad, not just because the films about the tent pole characters aren't working, but it also kills off any chance of seeing some of my favourite DC characters in movies, like Swamp Thing, Constantine and Martian Manhunter. Marvel are making coin with fucking Ant-Man! The Guardians of the Galaxy, who the hell knew them apart from comic fans! The logo on the film makes a huge difference to the average movie goer. They know they'll get an enjoyable, well made movie, even if it's about people they don't know, from Marvel. DC can't get 2 of their top 3 right.
Hang on John, with all due respect; WB and DCEU performance at the box office has No Effect whatsoever of the MCU which is owned by Marvel Studios and Disney.
Kevin Feige isn't going to drop a SINGLE movie in Phase 3 OR change plans for Phase 4 simply because a Justice League film under-performs.
Feige has NEVER once said that DC's films have ANY baring on the MCU. What he DID say is that :"They do their own thing and we will continue to put out good movies for our fans"
It's people like Zack Snyder and David Ayer making comparisons between the 2 studios that makes it SEEM like the DCEU is a competitor to the MCU, but the reality is Far from it.
The ONLY thing that affects the MCU is how Their movies perform, and Feige's read on their box office and audience feedback.
He couldn't care LESS how the DCEU does, and how do we know this?
Because the MCU was made LONG BEFORE the DCEU was thought up, and will continue to be done even if the DCEU should up and die tomorrow. It makes no difference to Marvel Studios's plans.
Their goal is to see Phase 3 come to its Epic Conclusion and create a Legacy for all others to follow.
DC's problem was that it thought it could skirt the formula and short cut their stories and Magically be on par with the MCU. That is just plain Arrogance and they paid for it.
Now they need to Re-Evaluate their plan and consider just doing their own thing, even if it means tailing behind Marvel Studios.
Marvel Built up TRUST in their fans before making superhero team ups.
DC needs to do the same, and build up trust.
If they still refuse to do that, then they have NO BUSINESS being in the Cinematic Universe Genre of films.
Leave that stuff to the experts.
Darewin, you don't speak for the general audience. Nor do I. As a film goer, I judge each movie on its own merits. I don't care how well any film does. I care if it interests me enough to go invest my time and money, on a case by case basis. It's very simple and one movie never impacts my desire to see or enjoy another. Having said that, when we're talking franchises, I make an exception.
I definitely think that this is true.
The MCU has only ever been impacted by what the DCEU does once IMO. It was when the Avenger stopped all civilian casualties in Age Of Ultron. That could have been bcoz of the hate in Man Of Steel. Other than that the MCU is completely different and not at all affected by anything the DCEU does
Back in my teens, there were two TV series that I watched religiously: Deep Space Nine, and Babylon 5. B5 had a significantly lower budget than DS9, but the need to compete pushed them to squeeze every penny of quality they could out of their budget, and made the series better. DS9 was a ripoff of B5 in the first place, but the need to compete pushed the writers to create deeper characters and more dramatic storylines, and made the series better.
If the DCEU is making great films, Marvel has to make better films to compete. And with Marvel making great films, DC (should) have to do the same.
You're being hyperbolic. What's going on with the DCEU is entirely of their own making. Why should anyone cheer those movies doing well when they're deliberately making movies that most of the public aren't receptive to? That's no one's fault but Warner Bros, and likely will hurt no one else but them.
I agree!
If DC made the MCU:
-Iron Man
-Avengers 6
Frederick Core lmao
Full list of If DC made the MCU:
-Iron Man
- Captain America: Civil War
-Guardians Galaxy: Vol 1
- Thor
- Avengers
HAHAHAHA so true...
Frederick Core lmao
Frederick Core yeah, i can imagine that lineup:
-Iron man
-civil war ( with a Thor cameo)
-guardians of the Galaxy (on earth)
-thor
-avengers
The Affleck controversy killed the momentum this movie ever could have had.
Non-avid movie followers even heard/knew about this muck happening.
JTH it is sad and personally i will 'OK' if jake gyllenhaal being the next cape crusader
Im not a huge dc fan or marvel fan for that matter. I love the mcu very casually as in i really enjoy the films but dont go crazy over them as I do for star wars & i really loved WW but honestly just judging by the JL trailers it just didn’t look that good. I might be in the minority with this but i think its as simple as i dont think the general audience was ever all that interested in it since for me personally it didn’t look good
the general audience doesnt know that
Thats my main reason why I didn't see the film. This whole Affleck leaving turned me off. If Jake gets the role, ill be excited.
Affleck has been on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon 3 times since the news broke, and he was asked about it each time. Comic Book fans aren't the only people watching Fallon.
I remember saying this will top the Avengers movies.
....I'll go ahead and think over my life decisions
SuperShanko I just can't stand the thought of not getting more movies of this genre. DCEU, for the better or the worse, *made conversations happen.* I hold these things close to my heart and this genuinely broke me.
I have my hopes on a small second week drop and logically speaking, I might be right.
Honestly, given Thor Ragnarok's numbers and the view count on The Infinity War trailer recently, whatever failures in the DCEU aren't impacting Marvel.
Look. It seems like no other company than Marvel Studios itself knows how to create a proper cinematic universe. They tried and they failed. Dark Universe, DCEU, X-Verse and many more. But how come WW, Logan, and Deadpool succeed? Because it has nothing to do with other movies, continuity, or whatsoever. So, I say, for those major studios including WB, just focus on creating a good movie, a good one. Forget about crossover. As for Marvel, they better keep Feige until he dead, the guy is a national treasure of Hollywood, if they let him on the loose I bet lots of hungry studios ready to eat him and Marvel Studios will be on suicide watch
Its extremely surreal, I know DC dropping the ball had hurt the film's chances but its still hard to believe justice league, the team-up featuring the biggest comics team and starring superman, batman, wonderwoman, and flash.....will open to way under the films of once way less popular characters.
Apparently the high tides that Marvel created didn’t help DCs ship so why would Dcs poor reviews hurt Marvel
I don't see how WB/DC failing would affect Marvel. There's no link between the two. Marvel spent 10 years building their brand and developing their characters. This created a fan base.
DC is creating movies as if there is already a fan base for these versions of the characters (which are different from what viewers have seen before).
Also, not only is DC is trying to cram multiple storylines into single movies. They're using storylines that should be saved for later. Batman vs Superman. Death of Superman. Superman almost dies twice before he's finally killed, and this is the second movie in the franchise.
They also need better writers. Wonder Woman had a flawed plot, but it was focused, roughly followed a logical path, and was entertaining. That paid off.
Even if some people decide not to watch anymore “comic book” films, it won’t affect things.
2017 was a pretty good year for comic book movies surpassing $800k. That includes WW, which is basically a spinoff of the horrible BvS. Ragnarok followed the dismal Dark Word in the Thor trilogy, but it also broke $800k.
Why did these films do well even though the previous year had garbage like BvS, SS, and Apocalypse? Because people enjoyed them. People are smart enough to know that just because one movie is crap, doesn’t mean all movies of the same type are crap.
Movie news reporters say the failure of DC’s movies will affect Marvel’s to create drama and build tension for the storyline. They say JL did poorly because of BvS. But WW did better than expected in spite of BvS. So being a comic book movie doesn’t matter. Audiences can still grow after garbage. What matters whether or not the movie is entertaining to the general audience.
Should read $800 m not k.
It doesn't actually. Look no further than "Thor: Ragnarok". Even if Marvel released that movie a month after Justice League, it would still make over $800 mil. If it's a good quality movie from a well known brand, it will sell itself.
I feel like Kevin Feige should ask for a raise next quarter. The man just makes it look easy - cinematic universes are hard.
It's this simple: the foundation was faulty from the beginning. Warner bros/D.C. rushed the universe from the start. All these amazing character's needed their own time to grow and connect with the fan's. Look at Marvel -- an organic, efficient development of narrative from the first Iron man on.
The film is heading in the right direction?! And just how long are we supposed to wait? We've had 5 films already!!!! They should've had this nailed down by (at least) the third film!
You hit it on the head.
They need to have at least one gem like an iron man
LAZEDOUT yeah so far they have a captain America the first avenger but not an iron man
the very first DCEU got it right. i just finished MOS and it and MAYBE WW are the only DCEU movies that are decent.
What do you think Wonder Woman was?
Fire the exec who didn’t listen and kept Snyder as the guiding director of this universe. Why couldn’t they just stick with the character we knew from the comics and animated series. They started off trying to make a dark knight Superman. No one wants to see emo Superman. That isn’t the Superman anyone knows. He’s suppose to be positive. They tried to fix him in JL, but no one can unsee the two previous movie with him. Thank goodness, Captain America has stepped into that positive role in the comic book genre.
when you say no one wanted to see a dark superman you should rethink about the way your word you sentence, because there are some people that do like a dark superman via Injustice: Gods among us, don't knock a studio for trying something different, yes it failed but at least they tried
Alex Santiago - That ONLY works as an Injustice storyline, not as Superman all day every day. I would like to see that too, but this cherry picked Justice League is not how you do it.
Alex Santiago Because DC did the right thing and made that an else world story. Our main Superman was still a hero.
I understand i wasn't knocking him for not having a more joyful superman, was just saying there are some people that do like a darker superman, I am honestly for both but yes like you said it IS an injustice storyline, but with good writing and character development either way could work
People called me all sorts for predicting Thor Ragnarok grossing more opening weekend than Justice League. I had my legit reasons for believing it.
Tom Grocutt except it didnt when you consider the international box office...
havok6280 but you don't consider the international box office when talking about the opening weekend... no point trying to put a positive spin on this, it's a shocking catastrophe and one I think we all want to forget as comic book fans.
Tom Grocutt the titanic (the boat not the movie) was a catastrophe. This is a disappointment for WB. Let's see how it does over a holiday weekend with no competition before everyone decides the sky is falling...
International money matters more for the record. Looks at the tranformers and fast and furious franchises.
Diego MV I totally understand the people not agreeing with me, I wouldn't have been surprised at all if I was wrong. I just took into account the popularity of the MCU, thor's superior trailers/ marketing campaign and the amount of views it got, the previous DCEU movie performance and the fact that the general audience didn't know the justice league brand name as much as the avengers or xmen. Not to mention some of the bad press before hand about ben affleck and other things surrounding this movie.
I was called crazy , because of fan boy goggles
The CW has just made a superhero 'movie' the right way. Crises on Earth X... INCREDIBLE!!! Without commercials, the 2 hour and 44 minute length was just perfect and kicks Justice League's ass!
Zack Snyder and Warner Bros ruined the DCEU.
It is simple. Movies are expensive these days and people don't want to pay to see a bad movie.They are being more selective with what they choose to see.
Wabbajam Whooy not true I️ see people all the time spending money to see the lowest crappiest movies. People just have bad taste. I️ know this cause I️ worked in a theater in LA for 2 years. LA is a massive Hollywood market so I️ can generalize the whole country’s movie taste based on my experience alone
andrew naranjo Maybe I'm wrong but isn't LA one of the most visited place in America? and don't most people want to see a movie in LA since it's the capital of cinema?, so I guess that's why you see people watching crappy movies there since it's part of the experience cause in other places there aren't many people watching crappy movie i think
Wabbajam Whooy also there's tons of new apps and add ons like kodi, you can wait maybe just a week to get a perfect quality film for free. Any film that is. Also the critics. People are seeing the rotten tomatoes score and saying it's bad when they don't even see it. All movies should set lower standards in the box office. Any movie.
totally agree especially if there are two superhero movies that are in theaters
like damn which one i'm i going to support a franchise that has taken there time and has wanted to make good movies or a movie that in the long run doesnt mean anything
Doubtful plus justice league wasn’t bad which is why anti dc people are liking it
Tone and darkness IS/WAS a problem. That has ALWAYS been amongst the biggest complaints. No one wants a dreary, depressed, sullen, Superman, and comic book world. People want fun, hopeful, exciting, and entertaining. Most people are not entertained with gloomy sky`s, darkness, and rain.
Chris Scorpio its about it being a good movie, wonderwoman was a good film, so no one cared if the tone was too light or too dark. Bvs was trash thats why ppl moaned, so is justice league
It wasn't the tone much as the fund bring terrible. If argue the dark Knight was just as dark in tone but it was a good film. The Winter Soldier was dark in tone..... But a well crafted film. MOS was just ok the Bvs and suicide squad were just examples of lazy filmmaking.
kilr gecko The general audience didn't tell WB to turn into a comedy,just to turn down the depressing parts. There is a huge middle ground between depressing and comedic
Roy Latham bruh, just make a cohere film with good story, good dialogue, fewer plot holes and character development. The tone means shit. Justice league har none of that. It wasn't the tone it was everything else. We have seen good movies with light tones and good movies with dark tones. Do u know what made them good not the tone but everything else in the movie.
It doesnt matter if JL was light or dark, everything else was poor, down to the cgi and the exposition dump.
WB/DC should now just get rid of the shared universe thing, Let Mat Reeves make his trilogy independent of anything, make man of steel 2, this would provide a fresh contrast to Marvel, thia whole shit has happened because because they rushed to get this shared universe going.
They didn't build a foundation at all. They tried to reverse engineer a universe, held their customers in contempt, and of course it finally bit them.
When people (real people, not loud internet-comment-only nerds) think DCEU, we think of Snyder's neck-snapping Super-insecure man. That was never my Superman. I left those movies feeling like he snapped my neck.
Dark and gritty 300-esque slaughterers wearing DC cosplay is not why I pay big money to go to the theater. Seems like WB execs saw Marvel's success, started licking their chops, wanted easy money, and ended up paying the price. Marvel earned their audience slowly. WB did not. I hope they don't give up tho. Please give me MY iconic Superman. (I also still want an awesome Batfleck, just not as PsychoBat.)
[edit: spelling/clarity)
Oh, yeah. And randomly and pointlessly killing Jimmy Olson...because, ya know, jokes...and fun. Seriously?
To quote a famous green guy, "This is why you failed."
Otter Guy, well said 👏
They gave Snyder too much control over the universe. Its obvious they never had a concrete plan at all. They just winged it and let the directors create the "universe".
J. Power
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😯🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 whew! Nice one. Thanks for that.
They should give Man of Steel 2 to Joss Whedon. The scenes he added to Justice League gave Superman some actual character. Superman actually smiled for once in a Joss Whedon scene.
The "DC and Marvel are tied together" argument doesn't work when Thor just came out 2 weeks ago and overperformed. The problem is Zack Snyder and his vision is terrible. Marvel is fine just like Wonder Woman is fine, you make a quality film people will watch it, you make terrible movies people dont. It's that simple.
So the future of DCU is in the hands of Aquaman.
Djordje Petrovic if Aquaman great...they should start over at that point.
That's actually weird to think about. Isn't Aquaman more of a B character?
Amien Fadhillah I have high hopes for Aquaman considering James Wan is directing. But at this point I don't know if Aquaman being good is enough to save them.
Nah, Aquaman didn't even tease enough interest. If anything, it'd be a Flashpoint movie, which Snyder has already left blueprints for in that Nighmare scene from BvS. But even Ezra's Flash has come out a little underwhelming....
I don't care at this point, i just like epic movies...
Kevin Portillo That whole Lois is the key thing ended up being wasted for bringing Superman back. I don't think it has anything to do with Flashpoint.
Their biggest mistake Was letting Zack Snyder direct it after making 2 films that were not well received by critics.
justice league was 5 years too late. You can’t make a standard comic book movie anymore. You have studios like fox, sony and disney mixing their movies into sub genres while DC is recycling the same plot we’ve seen countless times.
Felix Nolasco Exactly, good point!
Felix Nolasco, spot on mate 👏
Big Z - Very good poont sir.
Big Z Antman was more comedy than heist movie.And Civil War psychological thriller? XD it was action.What was psychological? The fight of two friends and Zemo plan? Then BvS is psychological as well because CW had similiar plot.
Sony?
Feels bad for DC :( , at least we still got marvel.
Destroyer of worlds and dceu is failing
Destroyer of worlds How?!
Destroyer of worlds How are BVS Suicide Squad Man of Steel even wonder woman better than marvel movies.
Batman Panther the shittest marvel movie Thor the dark world would be one of the best in the DCEU
I have come from the future and DCEU no longer exists and in 2023 WB is still a hot mess
WB just need to do what Fox is doing, low budget films with a totally new spin, tired of these end of the world superhero movies, cancel Suicide Squad 2, and hurry up with batman and Death stroke films
Deric James There's nothing to me to think the film can be good, if they make it a low budget more grounded ops team film yes but now they're adding Black Adam, another God vs a low powered villains it's stupid
I do wanna see a cool superman movie. Doesn't have to be a world end scenario, but I want to see him at full strength. Zack Snyder didn't get the character and story right, but some of his actions scenes involving Superman were really great
I love what Fox did with Deadpool and Logan. I loved Wonder Woman and liked Suicide Squad and Justice League but primarily for the characters (not the stories). DC/WB may do well to try what Fox did because the amount of money that they are spending on these movies ($300 million? R U Effing kidding me?) is ridiculous.
I can't agree with one thing. That the average movie goer does not care if that's MCU, DCEU or FOX... I thought so until this month. Just look at how's Thor Ragnarok doing, it has great numbers, 2 weeks later JL comes out and it's a flop. Why? People are getting more and more aware of what they are getting, few years ago sure, I was talking with my friends and none of them had clue why exatly can't Iron Man be in the Batman movie etc... But now they do. They know that the same people that are behind for example Suicide Squad now have sth to do with JL. Same thing for the Thor - they know it's a guy from Avengers and that they enjoyed this one. Sure - big part of audience is still clueless, but awareness is getting bigger and bigger every year, at least from what I see around me, just my opinion.
How does Warner Bros./DC rebound from this? Simple. Make the solo films, and make them contained and great! Wonder Woman 2, Aquaman, Flash, Shazam, Man of Steel 2, The Batman, Green Lantern. AND THEN, make a PROPER Justice League film with the original seven members: Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern AND Martian Manhunter. That's how you increase anticipation and build hype: make solo films and build up to the team.
I was satisfied with the film, but it wasn't that great. I'm sure most people who saw it didn't feel the need to tell anyone "you have to see it."
Casting Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luther was the dagger to all this shit
i could go along with most of his performance, but the jolly rancher thing didn't work in the slightest. Maybe the ding ding ding part too, but he had pathos, i liked his take better than Kevin Spacey's (and it has nothign to do with recent events.)
A B I wasn’t a fan of any of it ... I thought it was awful
1) Hire more people who actually like comic books, or are at least willing to do their research to understand them
2) Stop relying on fans. Fans alone will not carry a movie to mainstream success. I think you are over estimating how many 'fans' there are. Not all fans are equal and not all rush out the first day or weekend. Just because Batman, Superman, or 'hero of choice' is in a movie isn't enough for a general audience, especially when they have seen these characters in movies/tv/games for decades now, and probably done better. Clever marketing, and then delivering on expectations = success.
3) Focus on characters, they are what will carry these movies - the main positive take away from JL is that people liked the characters, and so were willing to forgive a really uninspired plot and villain, at least for the most part. To keep good will and forward momentum, you need the audience (not just the fans) to want to see more of these characters, regardless of villain or story. You want to create NEW fans, at least for the movie versions of these characters. If nothing else, Marvel understood that much and got it right.
4) Plot and villain - yeah they are important too. BvS was overly complicated, JL was too generic, SS made no sense... WW is proof that a good focused serviceable script is all you really need.
5) Take risk. It is fine to play around with the characters, these characters have been around a while, so changes are needed... just maintain a reasonable expectation and budget accordingly. If you want to hire someone like Snyder who has an idea for these characters that might not be 'mainstream' friendly... fine, great - just don't give him a huge budget and assume universal mainstream attendance and approval... It might work, it might not - but don't assume it will work, especially with well established characters. The blame for these 'failures' isn't on the director for make a 'bad' movie, or the audience for 'not' getting it. With a smaller budget, these movies would have been considered a success, they made lots of money, just not enough money. The true blame is on the studio who took a foolish risk by throwing huge $ assuming huge returns because, it's Batman/Superman, it can't fail!
6) Again, cut the budget for all these movies - there is no need to spend so much that $96 million is considered a failure! Ridiculous. You only spend that kinda of $ if necessary, and only when you have earned the right (gained audience loyalty) to take that risk. Star Wars is a perfect example, they could spend less, but right now they have that audience loyalty so they can afford to spend more and it not be as big a risk. Once it is, those budgets will start to drop.
MAN! You explained it so well. I agree to everything u wrote. And I just wanted to tell you that I think you analysed the situation way better than John did in the entire video. 👏👏👏
Great observations!
Give me a break. A year ago you were gushing over WB management. Even after the debacle with Flash, The Batman and Suicide Squad 2 you still chearleading WB. Now you jumped on the bandwagon. At least admit you were wrong. As for Marvel, they are such a strong brand they no longer have to worry how other superhero movies do. It's like saying bad Sci Fi hurts Star Wars which is nonsense.
Yongho Minale so true
He also said JL would make a billion dollars, which anybody with eyes to see could tell that was not going to happen.
Yongho Minale . I agree. This guy is a big hypocrite.
Yongho Minale Very true. Infinity War is actually shooting towards Avatar numbers. 2.5 billion.
I don't get why he keeps saying its bad for marvel ?? Marvel is find hell Thor made more money then it was suppose to lol
Sebastian N. S. V. Then people would have seen JL because they liked Thor.
Dimitris Bright bull he said the same thing about bvs that it would hurt civil war it made over a billion with a 90 score marvel will be OK no matter what happens with DC good or bad
What needs to happen is for Black Panther to be good. It’s next up. In three months. Also if Star Wars is a massive success it can take heat of sci fi/genre films and audiences not in the 1% of geekdom will have something else to think about.
it may be true years ago. not anymore. people know the marvel brand now. that logo is red and loud af and their movies may not be 'deep' for some people but always entertaining for most people. Only movie that can f marvel studios is a marvel studios movie.
well normal audience have to be blind if they are not seeing that big red marvel logo or dc logo at the beginning of their every movies
This is not bad for all comic book movie fans, its actually good. It means that just because you have a good character in the movie doesn't mean the movie is good. You've got to earn it. Look at what Avengers did. Look at Logan. They didn't just have good characters, they were masterpieces. DC hasn't earned that what so ever. This is equated to Transformers movie opening low. Thats only a good thing. Time for Hollywood to learn to stop making trash.
My family and I are more excited to see Coco than justice league and we’re all adults now, no kids. I’m not a big comic book fan but loved the Nolan movies and I actually like the Batman world way more than anything from marvel, aside from X-men. But I was not looking forward to this movie after seeing BVS and suicide squad, god that was awful (with a few funny scenes). So as a casual comic book movie fan, they didn’t win me over and obviously a lot of people have the same point of view or opinion. Maybe I’ll catch it next week.
I agree that the DCEU needs a Kevin Feige type figure, who not only has great business and creative nouse, but they must also have the passion AND knowledge of a DC Comics and DC Cartoons fan.
There is scope for cheaper AND better DC films. We need more alter ego time; Clark Kent being a great reporter, Bruce Wayne being the world's greatest detective etc.
Blue Werewolf you mean world's greatest detective for Bruce?
Not a new concept, homey. They been saying that on ColliderVideos for about 4 years now.
taggsmcgee
Sorry detective.
Yes! More grounded, less team ups, and work up from there. Sort of like Phase 1 of Marvel, BUT with their own tone and color.
If people bring up Johns then he has been crap at his job if he’s the mastermind.
300 million budget and 150 million in marketing !? That means what, It needs to break-even is around 850-900 million? 11:00 I'm not sure if it's bad for all comicbook movies....Thor is crushing it, WW crushed it, Logan & Homecoming crushed it. Deadpool 2 & Black Panther will do great. People just didn't care about JL.
Ryan Justin your math is trash😂 like comicbookcast2 bad math... 300 plus 150 equals 450 million. No where near 800 million 😂
Weapon X studios dont keep 100% of the profits. do you think theaters show movies for free?
Jeffrey De Guzman exactly that jackass don’t know shit
Weapon X
The break even point of movies is traditionally said to be 2- 2.5 times the "negative cost" (an obsolete term; they should probably call it the "data- rendering cost" now. ) That's where he's getting that figure.
Ryan Justin um it's 300 including marketing
11:15 and then Black Panther made a billion dollars
Justice League will not affect anything BUT DC/WB.
I disagree with your statement, Mr. Campea, regarding the possible impact of a bad DCEU film on Marvel. Marvel has spent nearly a decade building up their brand. The consuming public has been well-trained by Disney to expect quality when they see that red card come up boldly identifying it as a MARVEL movie. The value in Marvel's trademark is secure thanks to consistent quality of the product. What the WB has managed to do is tarnish the DC brand with underwhelming movies. Numbers on the early movies were high because of the work DC had done over the prior decades with its properties. WB has undone that and it has started to show in the numbers. WB's failures will not impact Disney/Marvel one iota.
I agree. I believe Feige's statement was a simple PR maneuver, not something to be taken as gospel. Clearly the failures of WB and FOX have done nothing to impact Marvel.
Kevin Feige was just being kind. Way more than WB deserves for destroying our favorite heroes and their name.
John, I have to disagree with you about the symbiotic relationship you think DC and Marvel movies have with one another. My wife has not wanted to see a single Comic book movie since Batman vs Superman. I had to drag her to see Thor 3, which she loved. As a movie guy, I'm happy to see DC fail now, because I don't want them making any more crappy movies. Man of Steel was great, buy BvS and Suicide Squad were vomit inducing. I still havn't even seen Justice League or Wonder Woman because we lost all faith in WB.
Moonawrathic lol same with my wife. She thought BvS was so boring I couldn't get her to see another comic book movie until Wonder woman
Moonawrathic my brother went to watch BvS with me and my friend and he hated it so much he didnt go see civil war and dr strange with us after :( lol bvs ruined alot of ppls movie going experience when it comes to comic book films
Moonawrathic i also HATED BVS and SS, but loved Wonder Woman. It is so different than the other DCEU movies, the movie is filled with the hope and goodness of Wonder Woman! Her supporting cast are all really likeable and fun! The acting is really good especially Chris Pine as Steve Trevor! See the movie, you will be surprised that you liked it!
Moonawrathic doesn't that prove his point? Your wife hated BvS, and that made her not even want to see Thor despite her later finding out she loved it.
Because she's your wife and not a comic-book reader? The general public would always prefer a lighter toned movie. That is why Marvel is able to attract people.
Oh c'mon, people aren't idiots, John. They know the difference between Marvel and DC. If they didn't and only looked at the genre, do you really think JL would only make 96 mil? Your statement of divisive after divisive films causing JL's downfall supports what I'm saying here (of people not only looking at the genre but at the studios)
BenLuu TheTimeWaster yes yes that's want I'm saying I don't think he listens to things he say and how he contradicts himself
Actually people don’t really know the difference. If you are not into comic book lore, you wouldn’t know what Marvel and DC
Another person talking condescendingly to the "general audience". They aren't stupid, when I was 5 I knew the difference between Marvel and DC, keep in mind all the knowledge I had acquired were from some dumb videos on YT
Honestly, have you heard any "general audience" say
'Where's batman? I thought this was an avengers film"?
NO, because they know the difference. What about people saying
"Where's Hulk? I thought this was Justice League"
BenLuu TheTimeWaster Again you have info on comic book lore. Alot of the GA have zero
I disagree with you John on MCU and DC having a symbiotic relationship...yes it’s not helpful but I don’t think it hurts Marvel either
Don't get complacent, I'm a massive MUC fan, but bad comic-book movies do have an effect on other comic-book movies coming out, people don't really care that much about the two different companies, they see them as two sides of the some coin. One day Marvel will make a bad movie, and we need to be prepared.
Angel Feliciano john carter was just bad marketing...and Tron made money just not the money they wanted
@JRanger - BvS released shortly before Civil War. Civil War makes over a billion. Yeaaah, I'm with The G.O.A.T on this one.
Give the universe to Patty Jenkins. She has the only decent movie in the universe
I disagree that it doing bad is bad for comic book movies . If anything it is good as it shows the people want more from or better movies . Sony failing at Spider-Man lead to Spider-Man homecoming. Fox failing at X-men and stand alone wolverine movies lead to first class, days of future past and Logan . If anything if it kept doing well they would of kept making these mediocre to bad movies
Matthew Heywood so true
Fox failing at X-Men? They were all hits at the Box Office before First Class which underperformed.
Antonius Robertus did you see x3 ? Which lead to no new X-men movies for years and took first class to reboot the franchise. Or you going to ignore that ?
That’s because X3 was suppose the be the final film. Hence why it was called The *Last* Stand.
Antonius Robertus are you seriously saying it wasn’t horrible and set back the franchise? Are you also saying they weren’t going to make anymore? They would let the rights go back to marvel? Tell me you know better
The only movie I’d want to see from WB/DC is a documentary of what went wrong behind the scenes.
I don’t think the Marvel/DC relationship is that symbiotic. Yes there definitely is some correlation but I don’t thinks it as much as you think. Thor just opened 2 weeks prior and made over $120 million opening weekend and it was received very positively. So based off that then JL should have opened very strongly as well because Thor was a positive experience for CBM and benefited the genre. I know a lot of general moviegoers don’t know/care about Marvel vs DC but they can at least recognize the franchises and characters that they belong to. JL was advertised as basically a direct sequel to BvS which most people didn’t enjoy therefore didn’t bother to see this movie. Just because people didn’t like this movie doesn’t change their opinions about ALL CBMs. People still liked Civil War and Homecoming and all those characters, therefore they will still come to see the next installment (aka IW)
and that's exactly why you start off with solo movies and band the crew togheter in an eventual JL movie, not the other way around.
I agree. John is too obsessed with this 'symbiotic' shtick. Sure, there might be some truth to it - in the very long run if the general audience consistently see the same characters handled in the same way they might grow tired of it. However, it's the responsibility of Marvel is to make sure that they keep their movies as fresh as possible in the eyes of critics and the general audience. So far they've accomplished that. They've not had an identical tone in their movies regardless what radical DC fanboys might say. You have much more serious movies like Winter Soldier and Civil War to an extent. On the other hand, you have fun and self-aware movies like Ant-Man, Ragnarok and Guardians. They've also consistently changed up the sub-genres of all of their movies. If the relationship was as symbiotic as John suggest then the divisiveness of BvS or Suicide Squad would have had a strong negative impact on Homecoming and Ragnarok. They didn't though. Homecoming - based on a character we've seen three different iterations of in less than ten years - was able to out-gross the best movie in the DCEU. Indicating that the general audience is not tired of Marvel films yet - not by a long-shot.
You guys don't know WTF you are talking about!
Cullenprime You are who is in denial, there's no symbiotic between these franchises.
Release Green Lantern, Catwoman, Wolverine Origins, Xmen 3, TASM2 and Suicide Squad in one year and see if the movies released next year would do well.
As a DC fan their movies are terrible! They have nothing on Marvel
SteelCurtain MCOC movie wise marvel shits on DC but as a whole, DC shits on marvel
SteelCurtain MCOC you are part of the problem. Because you don’t have an opinion of your own. WTH DOES MARVEL HAVE TO WITH DC?
Is an apple a banana? Learn to appreciate it!
Go see marvel movies then jackass!
With DC movies not being made then the Saturation of Comicbook films will fall. But Marvel did well before DC got this irrational boner for the money and success.
Marvel will be fine.
Look at the games console market. If one console starts lagging behind the other zips forward, they don’t all fail.
Why would this affect anything of Marvel? Remember BvS? It didn't break a billion too, yet Civil war after bvs did. It's not superhero movies having a problem. It's dc and dc alone.
The Black Panther trailer 2 played before JL and my friend said that the trailer was better than Justice League 😂
THE MOVIE NOOB proving ur friend had a bias going in so his or her opinion is invalid 😂
that makes no sense, you have no idea whether his friend likes dc or marvel better...
THE MOVIE NOOB black panther looked like a cheap story to me :))
Babür Başlangıç Even that "cheap story" looks better than Justice League. ;)
Shellyman Vol.2 my dick looks better than marvel
Shame that a movie starting some of the well most famous superheroes didn’t made 100 million opening weekend
Jovany Marquez uhh avengers set the bar way too high
NoTalent VLOGS
Still JL didn’t even made 100 million , even Spider-Man 1 made more
Maybe they should have asked Marvel if they could lend them Iron Man or Spider Man lol. Then they wouldn't be having such trouble getting China to watch this movie.
xLttPx
BATMAN , SUPERMAN , WONDER WOMAN WHICH EARLIER THIS YEAR DID 821 million and Flash
xLttPx
The first MCU movie made 580
The first DCEU movie made 668 million
Yep it’s sad
I saw Justice League earlier this tonight. It was fucking terrible. Glaring errors, obviously poor writing, poor editing. There was “tutting” in the audience in the theatre. Superman was played by Hugo Weaving all of a sudden.
Marvel knew what they were doing, DC chased the success and money blindly. Foolish, a shame.
But I found JL just terrible.
I've come from the future and I have to say John that you were wrong about this effecting the mcu.
Everytime John says "Inconceivable ",I see and hear Wallace Shawn in my head,haha!!
You know, it seems like a no brainer that if you put superman and batman together it's going to be a home run but we've seen so many incarnations of these characters, we've seen them done over and over. Marvel started it's cinematic universe with The Hulk (it's most popular character it had rights to at the time) and that movie bombed so bad it's hardly considered MCU cannon. Then they bought in a less known fringe character in Iron Man and things took off. Maybe the key in building a new universe is to focus on new characters that audiences can meet and fall in love with for the first time and then bring in the crowd favorites for support like how Marvel uses the Hulk now. DCEU's most successful movie so far was Wonder Woman and we'd never seen a proper movie version of her. Maybe that's why.
Dirk Walker
Pretty much agree with you, but Iron Man actually came out before The Incredible Hulk. Also the reason most people don't consider TIH to be canon is due to the recasting of Bruce Banner, because Marvel took the role from Edward Norton and gave it to Mark Ruffalo.
MisterDoctor he said Hulk. Not Incredible Hulk. Your time line is wrong
the ang lee hulk isn't MCU even though Incredible hulk followed some of that film's general story (ie. brazil)
You guys are right. I had my facts regarding the hulk movies mixed up lol.
DC can’t save its universe alone
The G.O.A.T LOL😂
" UNITE THE STUDIOS"
*WB
I still think wonder woman was kind of overrated cause people were sympathizing with dceu and desperately wanted them to do good, plus wb set the bar low with their previous films. Classic superhero movie on 3 acts with an obvious love interest, doesnt bring anything new to the table
ML KoaLa if wonder woman is overrated so is 11/15 Marvel movies, let’s be consistent then
I agree that it’s overrated but I don’t think it had anything to do with any kind of sympathy for WB. Wonder Woman got all support it did because it had a female lead.
ML KoaLa no Wonder Woman was great.😃🤗
I don't see how having a female lead generating ticket sales is a bad thing. So did Thor Ragnarok do so well because it had a male lead? Or put another way, Ghost in the Shell had a female lead--didn't help it. What was the difference? Oh maybe general audiences don't care about The Major but do think Wonder Woman is great. Did you want the Wonder Woman movie should have a male lead?
WW was solidly "good," no film can be "great" without a solid 3rd act and a villain actually worth a spit. JL looked like a video game. And now, I hear that there are 3 Macguffins (Motherboxes) that need to be collected/protected, against a horned [diablo] stand-in who looks like 2nd-Gen XBox 360 games from 2nd-Tier developers. Who cares? Wonder Woman is not "hot enough." Batman is not "tough enough," and Superman is beyond saving in my mind.
You can't even think for ten minutes about WW's plot without unraveling just how tenuous it is...
Here, food for thought: WW read an entire dozen-book volume of Scientific sexuality by Blah, blah...but she doesn't know that people hold hands? She's made of clay...seriously? The Greek Gods are REAL, but the second-rate Howling Commandos aren't SHITTING THEMSELVES?
Don't even get me started on Doctor Poison giving Baron von Stand-in a drug to purposely mislead the audience about a "reveal" that was so predictable and so POORLY executed...ugh.
So then what does WB do? They take ARES from WW and make him the Big Bad in JL! Oh, I'm sorry, his name is "Steppenwolf" now...and he's probably EQUALLY as effective as ARES (what was Ares' actual GOAL even?).
People need to realize that because the comic book movies make big bucks it let’s the movie studios to take risks and make original movies.
Don't announce a movie universe before you've got a solid footing.
"They are heading in the right direction" has been said after every DC movie.
Yes, going from a “Flaming Dumpster” to a “Dumpster that’s NOT on Fire” is considered “heading in the right direction”, but it doesn’t give me any hope for the future.
Expect Major Layoff at Warner Bros studio, head start rolling
11:00 I'm so confused why this impacts the comicbook genre. Thor just opened to way more than what was predicted. Using your logic Thor huge opening and great reviews should have helped JL. People do know the difference. Fantastic Four flopping didn't hurt other comicbook movies. X-Men Apocalypse didn't hurt Logan. You are wrong.
I'm not rooting for a company to fail. I'm rooting for bad movies to fail so big companies stop making bad movies.
I won't cheer for bad movies to do well. Why would I want them to continue making bad movies?!
The problem is simple. WB have alienated the non-comic-book-fans, of whom make up 99% of the audience for these types of movies. I don't read comic books, but I do like superhero movies. However, I just feel like these DC movies were made purely for the comic-book fans, and NOT the general movie going fans.
Snyders Dark Universe: over and out
I think pulling the plug is an appealing idea but at the same time look at what they have coming up: Aquaman (a near finished film that will almost definitely be released), Shazam (a new character that can be distanced from the rest of the stink of the DCEU), Suicide Squad 2 (a sequel to a financially very successful film with already established/popular characters) and Wonder Woman 2 (a sequel to what is probably the franchise's biggest success). As much of a disappointment as Justice League is I think DC/WB should just take the hit and keep moving forward. The film was made under horrible, unfortunate circumstances and yet many people are saying it's a step in the right direction. I say keep going for now.
Adam Moore like I said use flash point as a soft reboot changing direction while maintaining the actors and wiping away the previous movies going forward
Adam Moore 100%agree WB step in to much and they need to take the hit. Which won't be too bad considering IT and WW overperformed at the box office.
Lmao Aqua man is coming out In December of next year. This is crazy why we're even discussing the future of the DCEU. they fucked themselves
Sorry, but WB and DC can't keep pushing forward if this is all they have. They need to throw the script literally out the window and look for some introspection. After awful movie after awful movie making WB lose tons of money, and the overall downward trend of the DC film universe, i can't understand why anyone would believe they should keep soldiering on just because "they have too much invested in this." The DCEU is a radioactive crater to anyone outside the circle of rabid fanboy apologists that refuse to see anything wrong with their fandom and prefer to blame everyone else except the people making these crap movies. Something HAS to change, because people do NOT like what's coming out of the WB/DCEU.
So no Wonder Woman sequel?
BLACK PANTHER 170 MILION DOLLAR AND NOW THE TRACKER TIRED COUNTING IT BECAUSE IT ALWAYS EARN 1 MILLION PERHOUR WHICH IS NOT COUNTABLE
punisher hurt the movie. Netflix is a theater killer
Am I the only one who thinks they actually saw it coming? Between the recent comments by Henry Cavill, Whedon agreeing that the villain is worthless and Affleck openly admitting that he wants out, it feels like there was 0 enthusiasm for this movie from the people who made it, and they put it out just to be done with it.
Black Panther is up next so we will see if there's any negative effects or data to glean from its performance. Personally, that cast and that director makes me wet so I'm pretty confident. JL failed because those trailers looked like BvS and no amount of fake excitement from fanboys could fool general audiences otherwise.
2sxy4myshrt Sosxyithrts I think you could compare black panther to Luke cage
Anna shafer Avengers IW trailer at least proves there's still pants tightening excitement and widespread interest in the "genre", so Campea's conjecture of JL's stink Pigpening mist on future films is wrong for now.
I would disagree with John. Marvel is like Apple now while all the other comic book movies are like Android. If Android does bad it doesn't hurt Apple. Marvel's Brand stands on its own.
Brandon Reed except the Galaxy brand is doing better than Apple lol wrong example
TTx04xCOBRA and how exactly does your rebuttal refute my statement on brand independence? Apple is also beating Samsung on profits bgr.com/2017/10/12/apple-vs-samsung-sales-2017-iphone-7/
Even though Apple makes more on profits. Android owns more than 80% of the global mobile market share. Android is doing better than iOS if you don’t know.
I get the point you're trying to make any that is so correct
Brandon Reed I get the point you are trying to make but terrible example.
I was so sure this movie would hit a billion dollars worldwide but now I don’t even think it will hit 800 million
"Justice League bombing will hurt the comic book movie industry. That's a fact. This hurts Marvel!"
"Black Panther one of the biggest openings of all time. On the way to a billion dollars."
Justice league didn't do as good as BvS because so many people already decided JL was going to suck before it even came out. So many people were calling it a failure before they seen it and it would appear they didn't even go to see it.
you know the moral of this shit show? DON"T MAKE BAD MOVIE and sequel base on it.
Ken Schell if the people didn't like BvS then why should they see a sequel made by the same guy who disappointed them?
Ken Schell that’s funny, so many people used to ridicule Marvel for making Guardians or Ant Man or Doctor Stranger or even when they started with Iron Man, they were told all of those properties were failures nobody would care to see....yet Marvel proved them all wrong
So why can’t DC do the same?
Well the trailers were godawful. I knew I didn't want to see it once I saw them.
The Terminator, a dominatrix, and Daredevil team up with Prince Namor and Speedball to fight...I don't know, Loki maybe? They have to stop him from assembling the triforce. Things look bleak until a zombie meets his old girlfriend then comes to help. Then the monster bugs fly away and the Russian family is okay. 10/10.
The Endless Sidewinders 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Hint: Stop filming all the scenes in the dark. It's tedious.
Frizzl33trizzl33 .... Word.
OneEnigma I think he means...the muddy dark...when u can't make out the action.
action scenes at night time, and raining to boot. i guess it's to hide the flaws.
The 3D glasses make it even worse
Justice League might have looked better if it didn’t cost 300 MILLION DOLLARS!
Just to compare:
Avengers- $207m on a $220m Budget
Justice League- $96m on a $300m Budget
Personally, I feel that since WB lost Harry Potter; They’ve been desperate for a big budget franchise (DCEU, Pan, King Arthur, Jupiter Ascending, Legend of Tarzan, Etc.)
Gigantic box office numbers and audience approval just months after this, with Marvel's Black Panther and Avengers: Infinity War. So no, there isn't comic book movie fatigue. It's just that Justice League was a Frankenstein patchwork of a mediocre movie, and people may have stopped believing in the DCEU.
John I’m sorry but Avengers wouldn’t have opened to 200 million had their been only Iron Man 1 and no solo movies from Captain America Thor or Hulk. They build up an audience and worked out kinks and mistakes before their big epic movie. Justice League should have come out after stand-alone movies
Roland P. He Incredible Hulk was a part of the MCU. Edward Norton’s behind the scenes drama got him replaced by Mark Ruffalo for the Avengers movie. I am talking about solo movies to get to know Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg in their own movies before throwing them into Justice League. Even this version of Batman didn’t get a solo movie first. It would have made a difference. Avengers opening success proves that
Black Widow and Scarlet Witch did have more than a 15-second cameo in theh movies they were introduced, though. And Hawkeye's cameo in Thor was enough background for his role in The Avengers where he got further character development. Making solo films is not a "Marvel formula." It's all about testing what works for your market. The solo movie approach is to the benefit of the studio. To make an event film (like JL and Avengers) work, they must first learn what general audience respond to from each of the franchise films. Marvel saw the Phase 1 movies and picked out the most interesting parts of each heroes. They saw which heroes needed more screen time and which one's to retool. Without a more significant role (at least 5 mins of screen time) in previous movies, DC has no idea how the audience is going to respond to Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman especially since these incarnations are very different from what the audience has seen before. One more benefit of doing solo movies first is escalation. You can do away with world-ending conflicts on solo movies and make them more personal and character-centric. The event movies can be more story-centric with apocalyptic events.
When you get right down to it the Justice League movie was just ok. Was not great or terrible just seriously ok. HUGE disappointment and I am surprised it made 96 million.
BVS just left a bad taste in everyones mouth. Such a shame tho JL is so much better.
You mean BvS and SS, because both movies were over hype by fans like mad, that might of cause WW (best DCE movie) to not do so good, and now JL wrost.
I'm stopping at 10:48 to write this and then I'll continue. While my estimate was 115-125 range, even to find out that was too high is a shock. That said...here's the questions I *should* ask:
How many films in the last ten years have opened the weekend before Turkey day to a take of over 100 million?
What happens in the next two weeks/ does the film have legs and/or what will the dropoff be like?
Was the marketing botched to the point where general moviegoers might "skip" the film for now? The "S" was in all the ads and posters but no Superman, many MANY scenes in the trailers never made it to the final cut - the teaser shots that had everyone buzzing. AWOL. (There are videos on this even if you did not see the film, and since not part of the said film are no longer spoilers)
Was withholding the Rotten Tomatoes meter a great move, a good move or a COMPLETELY DUMB ONE? (Guess what I think)
Okay. Now I want to get back to my "high" estimate. The question that should be asked of me is "why would I think that" if most other fans are hoping for higher numbers? Here's my answers:
I thought the marketing was odd. (no Superman but you knew Superman would be back)
Sorry, folks. I think Cyborg is a lame character for live action.
Another Alien Invasion. With Superheroes. With Joss Whedon.
I'm not a fan of Ezra Miller, but I like The Flash. I watch The Flash for free on TV.
Steppenwolf isn't impressive.
I don't pay too much attention to critics. Unless the studio WANTS me to. When early buzz is dead. when the RT results are held back and I got to tune in to a streaming show to find out what it is , it gives me pause. I feel like not I not only want to skip the show, but maybe...I should skip the movie and wait.
....which is exactly what I did.
John. I heard you comment what WB executives are saying in their meetings. How do you know this? Did they putting the meeting notes online? Send link please.
i don't need the DCEU anymore i need a good take on a superhero movie as they see it to be
exactly, even marvel studios film is getting stale for me, phrase one was good (black panther LOOK awesome too), right now i am more interested in getting the martin scorsese joker movie..... i don't need a cohesive universe for me to enjoy my comic book movies............ I just wan a good unique take on my superheroes, make it interesting.
I don't think you should link them all up like that. I say that Marvel and DC are less in a symbiotic relationship (what kills one will kill the other). But more like being part of the same genus but a different species. Mainstream audiences DO know the difference between DC and Marvel for the most part. It's been ingrained in American pop culture for decades. They know the differences in their movies too. If they were truly in a symbiotic relationship, Marvel's fantastic reviews and box office haul would be giving DC a near immediate boost. But instead, while one continues to succeed, the other one is stumbling. Marvel was honestly doing completely fine even BEFORE the DCEU even started. I'd say actually that both groups are simply part of one genus, one genre known as comic book movies. Similarly as there is the romance genre or the swashbuckler genre, if one movie or even set of movies in that genre fails, it doesn't effect the success of a different franchise set within the same genre. I think people can tell the difference between a Marvel and a DC movie, and while main audiences continue to what to see the next chapter in the Marvel cinematic tv show, they have been burned by DC while it was in its infancy and so are less inclined to give it another chance.
With the exception of Man of Steel and Wonder Woman, I think the other movies in the DCEU are pretty fucking bad. They should make Flashpoint and use it to reboot the universe. If it continues to fail, then they should abandon the cinematic universe and just do stand-alones.
Just because DC movies aren't good doesn't mean people are going to stop seeing comic book movies. People can actually tell the difference between Marvel and DC movies you know. I like both DC and Marvel (I know, what a shock), but DC movies are just shit. I feel like their animated and comic books are are better, but Marvel know what they're doing on the big screen. The only BAD movie I can remember from Marvel was Thor: 2. Some were average but for the most part they're good. So people have faith in Marvel and Kevin Feige. So just because DC is doing bad, doesn't mean Marvel are going to be bad.
I personally didn't mind JL. It wasn't good but wasn't bad. I would give it a 6.5/10 and to me, that's average. I thought Thor: Ragnarok was 8 or 8.5/10. I don't know why people are mad at Thor. SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER! I thought they could have made the destruction of Asgard and the death of Odin a bit more dramatic and emotional, but they did say Asgard isn't a place but the people. I thought that was a good enough explanation. I genuinly thought it was hilarious not like when the Flash falls down and lands on top of Wonder Woman. That was cringe worthy. Everybody has their opinion but to me, the movie should have been well over 2 hours. For a Batman movie, we don't need it to be, because everybody knows the origin of Batman. You can literally watch Batman Begins if you don't. So all they have to do is focus on the villain, and then show the conflict between the 2. There were 3 new heroes and a villain JL had to focus on. They DCU was poorly planned and executed. I think they should reboot with Flashpoint.
John, with all due respect, I disagree with your assertion that Marvel and DC have a symbiotic relationship. DC has been making divisive films with their best known characters for years while contemporaneously Marvel has been cranking out hits with lesser known characters like Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man and Deadpool. I have yet to see ANY proof that the bombing of one superhero film was the proximate cause of the underperformance of another. If you have, please provide us with an example. I love your podcast, John, but I disagree with this premise.