With how much Amazon is bastardizing the canon, they could've saved hundreds of millions of dollars and simply made their own fantasy universe instead of dragging Tolkien's work through the mud. All of this was simply for "brand recognition" amongst the audience.
Wasn't it reported Amazon paid $1 *billion* for the rights alone? 👀
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They know they don't have the talent to write anything of their own near on the level of Tolkien, so they need to wear things written by their betters as a skin suit. Plus the whole idea is to capture the IP for themselves by pretending that they now had some part in ADVANCING the story.
Brand recognition 👏 well said. Isn't that how people buy their cars 🤔 just saying 😊
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@@dquarks I guess for some people. I mean I would do research, figure out which car had the features I wanted at the price I could afford with the history of quality I need and get that car, but I am not really all that interested in Brands per se. Many people do however buy cars or TV's or whatever based on a brand name.
No such thing as Canon.....such utter rubbish. Tolkien scholar my ass. The showrunners and other involved with this.... performance....story.....thing...are a joke.
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how can one be a scholar studying something that has no canon. That's being a historian who does not believe in history. These Year zero communist vandals are horrid people but even worse than them in a way are the traitors like this so-called scholar who sell their soul for money and internet clout.
The quote, I believe, is taken out of context. From what I recall Corey Olsen was saying there's no definitive canon due to the frequent contradictions in Tolkien's writing as he was evolving his mythology. For example, you could argue that "Arda" was either the planet, or the solar system (with "Ambar" being the planet); or who the father of Gil-galad was; and so on. His comparison point was Greek mythology, where many different authors over time added their own stories to the collective whole, many of which were not coherent with the others. It's a similar point that's being made here, where canon can be "soft" (plausible) or "hard" (definitive).
Because they believe classic works are flawed and need fixing, including Disney classic story and Tolkien's works. By adding new ideas to these stories, they think the audience will realize that the newer ideas are better and more relevant. They believe we need help, when in fact, they’re the ones who need a psychiatrist.
That's pure nonsense. Most all inventions and advancements were the modification of something. Not that i dont like fantasy but you cannot really invent anything original because the basis for all these stories is that there's some chief evil character who fux things up. All the stories really are the same fundamentally there's absolutely nothing new under the sun. I find the naysayers absolutely pathetic and indoctrinated. But i have the luck to only have read the lotr so i'm no brainwashed to such degree but i'm 100% sure that even if i was tolkien nerd i could TOTALLY handle the series as a standalone thing and only care about whether i enjoy the show or not not whether it's canon true or not. To me all this yepping about the thr series is absolute proof that people are just stupid all these fanbois of tolkien are like literal religous zealots.
Peter Jackson in one small joke about a wizard being late, showed so much more warmth and personality. But these people wasted so much time and made a Gandalf with no personality. Just for cheap mystery box writing.
I feel like the entire series is devoid of personality, or heart, if you will. Peter Jackson at his worst would have been a hundred times better than this.
But Saruman was so close though. Instead of using a tube to fire a projectile he used an orc to deliver the explosion. If he'd just waited and thought about it for another few years he might have invented them. 🤣
@@rdreamspeakerisi3266 He is also a self-proclaimed professor, being a "professor" of his own online "university". Tom Shippey is an actual Tolkien Scholar, as he attended one of Tolkien's Lectures in person.
@@fredegar_hornblowerCorey Olsen is an actual professor, not self-proclaimed. His take on this was extremely bad, but he lectured on medieval literature and Tolkien's work specifically at Washington College for years before moving into the online university space. His first podcast is literally recordings of his class lectures at WC, and they are very good. It's what makes his defense of the show so obviously contractual obligation.
I'm still sitting here wondering why Gandalf's name and staff are a plot line at all. Sauron's out there f'ing shit up, and we're supposed to care about how "Gandalf" aKChuAlLY means "Grand Elf"?
100% about the missed opportunity on the blue wizards. the writers of RoP can seemingly not imagine anything, they have to see it in a movie or other TV show
The series finale was as good as expected. And yes, I do mean Series Finale and not Season Finale. I can't imagine they'd even attempt a season 3 after this debacle.
I think you're right. The ratings aren't there. But I think they will have a finale about 3 hours long. Been thinking about it and while not perfect all things are set. The southerners will turn on numenor with saurons aid. Theo will turn into one of the nine. AR pharazon will see he lost and accidentally sail to valinor triggering a cataclysm. Sauron winning big will March on Rivendell. Elendil however unites the scattered numenorians and unites with Gil galad and repulse the attack. Durin and his"bro" unites to fight goblins but lose and flee. Gandalf comes west to participate and gsther the humans together around hat would be bree and they take on some Wildman. The dark wizard helps but barely. Meanwhile nori finds the shire but is infested with a few goblins and they fight them and win. Alliance of men and elves led by galadrial head south. And thsts thr end. They win.
About the soft canon I do think it should be valued in how much it is consistent with the hard canon. It's not uncommon for writers to test out ideas by writing them and come back to it later to see how they feel about it. If it was never published by the writer it might be things never intended to be published at all. ROP used one such soft canon about Sauron which was described by Tolkien to be mocked by the orcs when he tried to pick up the mantle of the dark lord after Morgoth's defeat. That does not fit well with how Sauron is presented in The Silmarillion and LOTR as a master manipulator and powerful shape shifter. That version of Sauron would never put himself in a situation where he would be mocked by orcs. Tolkien was probably aware of how it would change Sauron from the published works so it might just have been a way to test new ideas. Since it conflicts with the published version of Sauron it should never be taken as canon and adapted like ROP did.
How come the bar keeps getting lower with the Rangs of Power? Lol (Shout out to Meme Copium for the 'rangs'. Too funny! I always recommend Nerd Cookies, Random Film Talk and Meme Copium. They've made this show bearable. 😂)
I think it’s disingenuous for them to argue it wasn’t canon when the show was pitched as being created by huge Tolkien nerds…it implied that these were people who loved Tolkien, who knew Tolkien well. Yeah so, when it was a very non-Tolkien feeling show, it was a huge let down.
I wouldn't be surprised if would not be Gandalf. He only says "that's what they're going to call me". And the showruiners could twist it into "we never actually named him Gandalf, you assumed that all on your own". More and more do I feel like this show is like an abusive relationship. "Love-bombing" with pretty pictures, shallow lines that sound good and marketing to an insecure group of people. Then if people see through these vapid lies and call the show out on it, instead of listening an growing, they attack and call them trolls, gatekeepers, haters, purists, etc. Just like an abusive personality would do.
Amazon "creatives" yet again showing themselves to be talentless grifters who neither understand Tolkien's work, nor love it. The Hobbit (a light-hearted book for children) is the height of their intellectual ceiling. RoP is just really unimaginative fanfic, where the writers have self-inserted themselves into someone else's story. I'm embarrassed for them.
I stopped shopping at Amazon in protest when Rings of Poop first came out. Last week my mom asked me to order something for her (she doesn’t use a computer). Amazon lost the package. They can’t even conduct their core business competently.
I gave up taking this show seriously in the moment they decided to bring in the character via asteroid, and turning a Maya into a bumbling amnesiac fool. I watched the first season just to see the extent of the heresy and sheer imbecility. Didn't even bother to start the second.
I think in the history of TV and movies there has never ever been something so monumentally stupid as Grand Elf being supposedly the origin of his name. It's not fan fiction level it's writers using crayons to put stuff down on paper because pencils and pens might poke their eyes out. It's unbelievable that well paid people committed this to a script and even worse that no-one just said 'Nah we can't put that in, it's just too shite for broadcast'.
I agree with everything you said here. And what's worse is how juvenile the writing is, how obvious and without nuance it is. I could "accept" a departure from canon in the sense of saying, "Well, I just have to accept that this is not really TLOTR, but it's still a good show that I can enjoy watching." But when it's so poorly written, and the characterizations and pacing are so badly done, it's not acceptable or good television. I feel bad for the actors. I think there are some really good actors in the show who are doing their best with the very shoddy material they are being given.
They kinda ruined their own setup... why call the staffs a GAND if they don't call him GAND-ELF then? Grand-elf? ... why call staffs Gands if you don't even use it as the punchline ? Do they know nothing about writing? ... stupid question actually.
Of course there is canon in Tolkien's works: if there weren't, nothing he wrote would matter. You could have Sam pull out an AK-47 and mow down orcs in Cirith Ungol and say "that's fine, there's no canon". Of course, Tolkien did revisit and change his mind about some things (like Galadriel & Celeborn's backstory: were they both from Aman or Celeborn from Doriath? Was Amroth their son?), but that does not mean it's a free for all on what is and isn't established. "no such thing as canon"... it goes to show that anyone can call themselves a scholar of Tolkien.
Amazon and the idiots running this show went for nothing but memberberries by using Gandalf and Galadriel instead of the more interesting choices of crafting adventures based on the Blue Wizards and maybe Celebrian. What a colossal missed opportunity.
I asked a question to some die hard RoP fans: Arondir stabbed twice by Adar and left on the battlefield wounded. Following episode he's running about as if he was fine - how Arondir was healed? Not one could give me an answer.
and good for Arondir that whoever healed him offscreen either was a capeable armor crafter, too or knew one at hand to repair Discount Legolas' armor between the two scenes as well.
In the end he was just called Gandalf because he had no door to hold. As for everything else in RoP the main source of inspiration is not Tolkien but their model show, GOT.
The actual linguistic origin of that name that people gave him, as you point out, is GAND elf, not grand elf. As in Gand (WAND, old Norse). He is a WAND elf, not a BIG elf. My theory is that they didn’t use it, even though in a previous episode one of the hobbits says “he is looking for a gand” so they know this, was because they wanted it to be a big reveal at the end of the episode and “gand” would have been too on the nose and spoil the reveal - proving the writers are stupider than their audience. Of course by that time the surprise was DOA - I mean it was a stiff, weeks old, reeking with flies corpse by then. They can be shown to have do a ton of really stupid things first to have a Sauron “reveal” and then to have a Gandalf reveal but both were a joke. Moral of the story - don’t do surprises that don’t work, and don’t do mystery boxes. Jackson already told you how to do the adaptation - fill in the blank spaces if needed (and there are plenty of good ones) but don’t put any of YOUR STUFF (his words) in there - ever! Of COURSE the use of “grand” by itself is not the problem. But it does point out the problems with the writing - they are trying to turn this into stupid, mystery box TV - and failing even at that.
They messed with the linguistics. How do you justify messing with the linguistics in a story written by the most famous linguist and philologist to date? 🤬
in some other review one commentator wrote, that the show runners allegedly said, that the Dark Wizard is not Saruman. Imho that is either a diversion and he still will be reveiled as such, OR the show runners finally got the memo, that their so called "mystery boxes" Stranger and Halbrand where empty cardboard boxes and changed their original plan for Saruman because of the fan backlash... but no-one can convince me, that the show runners did NOT plan for the Dark Wizard to be Saruman... The Looks and the repetive line "Old Friend" are more than enough evidence...
Wonder what's up with Hollywood and canon right now? Maybe they are finding that they don't like buying these big, decades-old franchises and being constrained by canon? Star Wars is doing the same thing by calling everything "tall tales."
It's because the writers are being controlled by marketing, mid level managers. Im not saying these showrunners are great but they are clearly being managed. You can see different scripts being played out
A billion dollars spent on one of the worst things I have ever watched. I even watched the episodes twice, to make sure I wasn't overreacting about how bad they were, and my God, they were even worse on second watching.
So Tolkien, a linguistics professor whose place and character names had meanings tied within the language of his world, would take no issue with squishing two words together that sound vaguely similar- assuming you drop a consonant- to come up with the name of one of his titular characters?
Tate brothers: "How much do we have to pay to make this all go away?" (Referring to the multiple serious criminal investigations) Amazon: "How much do we have to pay to make you state publicity there's no such thing as canon in Tolkien?"
He’s not even an elf😒 effing wizard. They already said that too… first season …not even wise elf… omg what about mithrandi… and all that other non effing canon😒
I don't think he would be younger. They were angelic/other worldly beings. And from what I recall, I swear they originally came to middle earth and instead of appearing in their angelic form, they decided to appear as old wise men. They felt the leaders would have an easier time listening to them if they appeared in an old wise man form, instead of looking like an angel.
On the one hand we have an Oxford linguistics professor who studied and invented languages. On the other the Amazon writers whose linguistic contribution includes… Grand+elf = Gandalf …Jesus Christ
Is there any truth to the rumor I just made up that Amazon is planning on releasing a 12-season spin-off series featuring only the Harfoots entitled *Meandering Aimlessly into Destiny* ?
100% you really nailed it!! Tolkien literally spent 50 years creating this universe. If any body of fiction has canon it is his. This isn't like Marvel or DC comics where hundreds of writers and artists have contributed over the years. This is first and foremost Tolkiens imagination and creation. Just because he was tweaking, adjusting and rewriting parts of it does not mean there is no canon. In addition, the original author is free to alter his work as he deems fit. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT any old rando like Pain & Decay have the right to create their own baloney and call it canon. There is only one other addition, JRR Tolkien explicitly named his son Christopher as his literary heir. Christopher was heavily involved with his father's work for years and years before JRRT passed. Christopher spent decades collating and organizing his fathers notes and drafts. He did not subvert his father's work. Therefore he was in a position to add to the canon (but not subvert it). Anything written or edited by JRRT and Christopher is by definition canon and everything else is NOT!!
i agree almost completely... but would amend that only the published work should be considered hard canon and from the letters only those portions covering not already published themes as soft canon
@@belegur8108 I don’t know about distinctions between hard and soft canon. Personally I don’t like the idea of soft canon because it invites the idea of “Well JRRT was only thinking about X and had not fully formed his perspective on it. So I can insert my own baloney interpretation here.” I think that permits the kind of nonsense Pain & Decay came up with. From my perspective, if Tolkien wrote or Christopher edited and collated it it’s canon. Even if the concept is not fully formed.
▶️ Soon in 'Rings of Cringe': Gandalf's fight 🧙♂️ 💥 Dark Wizard: "Join me, Gandalf, and I will complete your training. We can overthrow Sauron and rule Middle-earth together." Gandalf [exhausted and in pain]: "I'll never join you!" Tom Bombadil [materializes out of nowhere]: "Hello there!" [Duel of Fates starts playing + we see 3 wizards fighting with their wands & sticks, epic Matrix-like $h!t is happening]
Don't be so grumpy and.....sour man! - Grandelf to the mysterious dark wizard he just vanquished Saruman?!? I guess I don't have a name yet and you have beaten me...--Saruman
I just love watching Amazon burn money. They can never argue that they can't pay their workers more because they were more than willing to blow a billion dollars on a TV show that lost them money and raised almost no revenue. At least the workers with more money would spend it and it would help the economy and most likely spend it on Amazon.
Yep. Just think - Jeff Bezos could spend that money helping to alleviate poverty, or building museums, schools, parks, concert halls, putting money into cancer research, supporting anti-homelessness measures. But no, that asshole sends himself into space and gives money to people who want to wreck classic literature and make Sauron horny for Galadriel. Cringe.
I watched season one because I wanted to be part of the in-crowd and understand why people were so upset. This is my first time commenting on anything for season 2. I actually avoid engaging with anything RoP so that my algorithm doesn’t show me anything RoP related. The best way to kill this is by ignoring it 100%.
It's pretty short sided to sell out to some temporary show or movie. Once it's done, you have nothing. No more money from Amazon, and most of your audience knows you were lying and probably leave. Pretty stupid. I'd atleast want a house or something to help me with the normal job I'll need to have when everyone leaves
I bet that in the 5th season they'll tell that it was an alternate Middle-earth universe. Like the one where Eru loves orcs. Because they are his children still. And Melko was misunderstood by the ainur because Varda chose Manve, not Melko. So the music went bad. Melko's crushing things. But in the alternate universe Erlond kisses Galadriel. Why not Sauron? Maybe Sauron went bad because Galadriel did not kiss him in the very beginning. Her brother died fighting Morgoth. Mheeah, whatever. Annatar is a rather sexy guy. Why not kissing this demigod, Gladriel? What sayst thee? Nah-nah-nah, fuck cannon, of course.
I think "canon" should be "what is generally accepted as the story up until now by the fans of the story". If there is a popularly accepted framework for how things are then that's what the show writers should have had the insight into before create their show. But they didn't, they had no idea of what was popular among the fans because they were not fans before attempting to create it.
I suppose this version of Gandalf won't be allowed to smoke his pipe, sigh. And no doubt they will have him using his powers the whole time, like a superhero.
We all knew The Stranger was Gandalf from the first promo photos and teasers, and they practically confirm it at the end of season 1, yet the showrunners claim they didn't decide on his identity until they were writing season 2. I don't like insulting people as much as I hate their work, but they're such idiots.
"Grandelf" was an obvious revel 🥱 What I'm curious about is the dark wizard. Is he intact one of the lost blue wizards who famously went east and who late would set up their own twisted cults? 🤔
Such a missed opportunity and just a completely misunderstanding of the fan base. I have genuinely tried to give the show a go, but to not make the him a Blue Wizard was just sad.
WOW I am impressed, 8 year old me mispronounced Gandalf and Grandelf and I quickly realised how freaking stupid that was it's a shame that has stuck with me for 42 years. You know what else is a shame that probably will stick with me for years to come is sitting through 3 episodes of this trash show, I can't imagine how much brain damage Tolkien fans would get from watching all of this show.
The character with amnesia plot is weak soap opera fodder. I thought the way Gandalf was delivered to Middle Earth was hillarious, like the SNL alien abduction skit where the aliens dropped Kate McKinnon naked in a field, all so ROP could run a weak amnesia sub plot. Who did Gandalf piss off that he got delivered by being shot out of a cannon (except there is no cannon)
Gandalf was there in the second age but not as Gandalf he is a being who takes on many forms, Tolkien himself said in any medium cannon must be followed or you destroy the story.
OMG, you mean he's Gandalf, how could I not have seen that, totes didn't see that coming. Damn fine script writing, worth every penny. if it's written down, its CANON, otherwise we just have to call it "some words".
please don't call it Fanfiction... nothing fan about that... call it Corporate Fiction... just name grabbing for an initial audience, that would never have touched that show, without the title...
When the he first appeared in season 1 everyone was upset at how lore breaking it was 4 him to show up so early, and on a comet? Wtf? People complained so much the show runners insisted that he’s not Gandalf and is actually a different character, so it’s totally fine. But since he is in fact grand oaf, that excuse 4 why it wasn’t lore breaking is complete bs and they were in fact totally shting on the lore.
This show is so bad it boggles the mind. If 5 yo proposed something like this, they'd be laughed out of the room. It's absurdly bad, it's so bad that I'm almost considering it's some form of performance art instead of genuine attempt to make a TV series.
"The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not preceiving where the core of the original lies." J.R.R. Tolkien, Letters #210
It's a lot to ask for the show to follow the canon, when the show does not follow its own continuity between seasons, episodes and even within the same episode. After they had the equivalent of several nuclear bombs going off on top of most of the main characters and the next episode they are all completely unharmed, I certainly gave up all hope on the writers caring about anything.
Tolkien created arguably the most solid, detailed canon of any fantasy author. His writings are the epitome of canonical. Corey Olsen clearly understands nothing about Tolkien's works.
Lord of the Rings isn’t like Star Wars, where there were several different writers that had different stories and explanations. This is Lord of the Rings, created and written by the one and only J.R.R. Tolkien. This show wouldn’t exist without the “canon” of Tolkien’s work.
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Nerdrotic said it perfectly when he said that he was expecting the same hobbit to call the evil wizard "A sour man."
😂
Some sort of sour man!!!
I literally laughed out loud with that one 😂
They should call him The Grand Wizard 😂
I think that "Grand Elf" thing made my face cringe in to a singularity.
I laughed out loud.
If there's no such thing as canon, then there is no such thing as a 'Tolkien scholar' or 'Tolkien professor.'
oh,that’s a good point,SNAP!!!
With how much Amazon is bastardizing the canon, they could've saved hundreds of millions of dollars and simply made their own fantasy universe instead of dragging Tolkien's work through the mud. All of this was simply for "brand recognition" amongst the audience.
Wasn't it reported Amazon paid $1 *billion* for the rights alone? 👀
They know they don't have the talent to write anything of their own near on the level of Tolkien, so they need to wear things written by their betters as a skin suit. Plus the whole idea is to capture the IP for themselves by pretending that they now had some part in ADVANCING the story.
Brand recognition 👏 well said. Isn't that how people buy their cars 🤔 just saying 😊
@@dquarks I guess for some people. I mean I would do research, figure out which car had the features I wanted at the price I could afford with the history of quality I need and get that car, but I am not really all that interested in Brands per se. Many people do however buy cars or TV's or whatever based on a brand name.
Which backfired because Tolkien fans are having none of this pile of moldy vomit.
As so often happens, and has happened since ancient times irl, a patron buys an "expert," whose job is not to sanity-check, but to rubber-stamp.
This is what they wanted Tom Shippey to do, but he had too much integrity.
No such thing as Canon.....such utter rubbish. Tolkien scholar my ass. The showrunners and other involved with this.... performance....story.....thing...are a joke.
how can one be a scholar studying something that has no canon. That's being a historian who does not believe in history. These Year zero communist vandals are horrid people but even worse than them in a way are the traitors like this so-called scholar who sell their soul for money and internet clout.
The quote, I believe, is taken out of context. From what I recall Corey Olsen was saying there's no definitive canon due to the frequent contradictions in Tolkien's writing as he was evolving his mythology. For example, you could argue that "Arda" was either the planet, or the solar system (with "Ambar" being the planet); or who the father of Gil-galad was; and so on.
His comparison point was Greek mythology, where many different authors over time added their own stories to the collective whole, many of which were not coherent with the others.
It's a similar point that's being made here, where canon can be "soft" (plausible) or "hard" (definitive).
If they didn’t want to deal with established canon, they should have written their own original story instead of corrupting someone else’s work!
Because they believe classic works are flawed and need fixing, including Disney classic story and Tolkien's works. By adding new ideas to these stories, they think the audience will realize that the newer ideas are better and more relevant.
They believe we need help, when in fact, they’re the ones who need a psychiatrist.
@@jiyuchan17wait, Disney was a big “fixer” of classic works. Is that what you mean?
That's pure nonsense. Most all inventions and advancements were the modification of something.
Not that i dont like fantasy but you cannot really invent anything original because the basis for all these stories is that there's some chief evil character who fux things up. All the stories really are the same fundamentally there's absolutely nothing new under the sun.
I find the naysayers absolutely pathetic and indoctrinated. But i have the luck to only have read the lotr so i'm no brainwashed to such degree but i'm 100% sure that even if i was tolkien nerd i could TOTALLY handle the series as a standalone thing and only care about whether i enjoy the show or not not whether it's canon true or not. To me all this yepping about the thr series is absolute proof that people are just stupid all these fanbois of tolkien are like literal religous zealots.
Peter Jackson in one small joke about a wizard being late, showed so much more warmth and personality.
But these people wasted so much time and made a Gandalf with no personality. Just for cheap mystery box writing.
he probably forgot his personality... or hit his head so hard on impact when arriving, that the changed from warmhearted to bland
I feel like the entire series is devoid of personality, or heart, if you will. Peter Jackson at his worst would have been a hundred times better than this.
What the Tolkien professor actually said: "There's no such thing as cannons in Tolkien's work, but there are trebuchets!"
But Saruman was so close though. Instead of using a tube to fire a projectile he used an orc to deliver the explosion. If he'd just waited and thought about it for another few years he might have invented them. 🤣
someone pointed out that as he is claming to be Tolkien professer than there has to be cannon.
@@rdreamspeakerisi3266 He is also a self-proclaimed professor, being a "professor" of his own online "university". Tom Shippey is an actual Tolkien Scholar, as he attended one of Tolkien's Lectures in person.
@@fredegar_hornblowerCorey Olsen is an actual professor, not self-proclaimed. His take on this was extremely bad, but he lectured on medieval literature and Tolkien's work specifically at Washington College for years before moving into the online university space. His first podcast is literally recordings of his class lectures at WC, and they are very good. It's what makes his defense of the show so obviously contractual obligation.
I like Elaine’s metaphor of children playing with someone else’s toys and doing whatever they want with them 😅
They straight out copied Game of Thrones. Remember “hold the door… Holdor!"?
As protégé's of JJ (25% different) Abrams, *yes.*
The Ford Fordor had four doors and the Tudor had two.
Same with the Durin brothers… the Greyjoy storyline was completely lifted
I see indeed a lot of similarities between the writers and Hodor.
HODOR?!
I'm still sitting here wondering why Gandalf's name and staff are a plot line at all. Sauron's out there f'ing shit up, and we're supposed to care about how "Gandalf" aKChuAlLY means "Grand Elf"?
‘Memberberries, and recognizable characters.
100% about the missed opportunity on the blue wizards. the writers of RoP can seemingly not imagine anything, they have to see it in a movie or other TV show
They stole Grandelf from French & Saunders LOTR parody skit they did years ago!
No. There's no way they did. That suggests they're more cultured than they are
@@animelytical8354😂
This series needs more ants
Grandelf, hold the door!
When their defense is "There's no such thing as truth", then you know they've got nothing.
The series finale was as good as expected. And yes, I do mean Series Finale and not Season Finale. I can't imagine they'd even attempt a season 3 after this debacle.
I think you're right. The ratings aren't there. But I think they will have a finale about 3 hours long.
Been thinking about it and while not perfect all things are set.
The southerners will turn on numenor with saurons aid. Theo will turn into one of the nine. AR pharazon will see he lost and accidentally sail to valinor triggering a cataclysm.
Sauron winning big will March on Rivendell. Elendil however unites the scattered numenorians and unites with Gil galad and repulse the attack.
Durin and his"bro" unites to fight goblins but lose and flee.
Gandalf comes west to participate and gsther the humans together around hat would be bree and they take on some Wildman. The dark wizard helps but barely.
Meanwhile nori finds the shire but is infested with a few goblins and they fight them and win.
Alliance of men and elves led by galadrial head south. And thsts thr end. They win.
About the soft canon I do think it should be valued in how much it is consistent with the hard canon. It's not uncommon for writers to test out ideas by writing them and come back to it later to see how they feel about it. If it was never published by the writer it might be things never intended to be published at all. ROP used one such soft canon about Sauron which was described by Tolkien to be mocked by the orcs when he tried to pick up the mantle of the dark lord after Morgoth's defeat. That does not fit well with how Sauron is presented in The Silmarillion and LOTR as a master manipulator and powerful shape shifter. That version of Sauron would never put himself in a situation where he would be mocked by orcs. Tolkien was probably aware of how it would change Sauron from the published works so it might just have been a way to test new ideas. Since it conflicts with the published version of Sauron it should never be taken as canon and adapted like ROP did.
DID THEY REALLY HODOR GANDALF???!!!
How come the bar keeps getting lower with the Rangs of Power? Lol (Shout out to Meme Copium for the 'rangs'. Too funny! I always recommend Nerd Cookies, Random Film Talk and Meme Copium. They've made this show bearable. 😂)
As protégé's of JJ (25% different) Abrams, *yes.*
I think it’s disingenuous for them to argue it wasn’t canon when the show was pitched as being created by huge Tolkien nerds…it implied that these were people who loved Tolkien, who knew Tolkien well. Yeah so, when it was a very non-Tolkien feeling show, it was a huge let down.
I wouldn't be surprised if would not be Gandalf. He only says "that's what they're going to call me". And the showruiners could twist it into "we never actually named him Gandalf, you assumed that all on your own".
More and more do I feel like this show is like an abusive relationship. "Love-bombing" with pretty pictures, shallow lines that sound good and marketing to an insecure group of people. Then if people see through these vapid lies and call the show out on it, instead of listening an growing, they attack and call them trolls, gatekeepers, haters, purists, etc. Just like an abusive personality would do.
Amazon "creatives" yet again showing themselves to be talentless grifters who neither understand Tolkien's work, nor love it. The Hobbit (a light-hearted book for children) is the height of their intellectual ceiling. RoP is just really unimaginative fanfic, where the writers have self-inserted themselves into someone else's story. I'm embarrassed for them.
I stopped shopping at Amazon in protest when Rings of Poop first came out. Last week my mom asked me to order something for her (she doesn’t use a computer). Amazon lost the package. They can’t even conduct their core business competently.
Finally someone else calling this shit show that way. Thank you man.
"there's no cannon" = "we don't have rights to the cannon but don't mind, look over here! hobbits!"
I gave up taking this show seriously in the moment they decided to bring in the character via asteroid, and turning a Maya into a bumbling amnesiac fool.
I watched the first season just to see the extent of the heresy and sheer imbecility. Didn't even bother to start the second.
You're far better off no watching, really.
I think in the history of TV and movies there has never ever been something so monumentally stupid as Grand Elf being supposedly the origin of his name. It's not fan fiction level it's writers using crayons to put stuff down on paper because pencils and pens might poke their eyes out. It's unbelievable that well paid people committed this to a script and even worse that no-one just said 'Nah we can't put that in, it's just too shite for broadcast'.
We are very proud of what we accomplished with the show so far, also we fired the whole writing staff
I agree with everything you said here. And what's worse is how juvenile the writing is, how obvious and without nuance it is. I could "accept" a departure from canon in the sense of saying, "Well, I just have to accept that this is not really TLOTR, but it's still a good show that I can enjoy watching." But when it's so poorly written, and the characterizations and pacing are so badly done, it's not acceptable or good television. I feel bad for the actors. I think there are some really good actors in the show who are doing their best with the very shoddy material they are being given.
That "scholar" would walk up to a conclave of cardinals and inform them there's no canon.
They missed a real merchandising opportunity in introducing a baby Gandalf character
They kinda ruined their own setup... why call the staffs a GAND if they don't call him GAND-ELF then? Grand-elf? ... why call staffs Gands if you don't even use it as the punchline ? Do they know nothing about writing? ... stupid question actually.
Was so wanting them to call him grand wizard lol
Wait, the stranger is Gandalf? Really?!?! Wow! I didn't see That coming!
Said Nobody.
Of course there is canon in Tolkien's works: if there weren't, nothing he wrote would matter. You could have Sam pull out an AK-47 and mow down orcs in Cirith Ungol and say "that's fine, there's no canon". Of course, Tolkien did revisit and change his mind about some things (like Galadriel & Celeborn's backstory: were they both from Aman or Celeborn from Doriath? Was Amroth their son?), but that does not mean it's a free for all on what is and isn't established. "no such thing as canon"... it goes to show that anyone can call themselves a scholar of Tolkien.
Amazon and the idiots running this show went for nothing but memberberries by using Gandalf and Galadriel instead of the more interesting choices of crafting adventures based on the Blue Wizards and maybe Celebrian. What a colossal missed opportunity.
what happened to the slim shady evil moth people? They returned in this season for like a minute and we never saw them again
That is such a stupid thing to do. Did the KI predict that it would be a Hodor-Moment?
I asked a question to some die hard RoP fans: Arondir stabbed twice by Adar and left on the battlefield wounded. Following episode he's running about as if he was fine - how Arondir was healed? Not one could give me an answer.
Another question for them: Since we’ve seen Bronwyn’s complete story for all 5 seasons…. what exactly was it?
Oh he was healed off screen. Easy. Great show.
Hey dud you know durin has a brother named durin. Dwarfsgiving can be complex.
and good for Arondir that whoever healed him offscreen either was a capeable armor crafter, too or knew one at hand to repair Discount Legolas' armor between the two scenes as well.
Casting Jack Black as Al Pharaoh's son was genius.
Little hibbit should have said: "You are a Gay Elf". And the name Gandalf was born.
So, the big reveal is WHAT his name is! /mind meltingly dumb.
But WHY is he there??
/struggles to find causal connection to storylines.
In the end he was just called Gandalf because he had no door to hold. As for everything else in RoP the main source of inspiration is not Tolkien but their model show, GOT.
The actual linguistic origin of that name that people gave him, as you point out, is GAND elf, not grand elf. As in Gand (WAND, old Norse). He is a WAND elf, not a BIG elf. My theory is that they didn’t use it, even though in a previous episode one of the hobbits says “he is looking for a gand” so they know this, was because they wanted it to be a big reveal at the end of the episode and “gand” would have been too on the nose and spoil the reveal - proving the writers are stupider than their audience. Of course by that time the surprise was DOA - I mean it was a stiff, weeks old, reeking with flies corpse by then. They can be shown to have do a ton of really stupid things first to have a Sauron “reveal” and then to have a Gandalf reveal but both were a joke. Moral of the story - don’t do surprises that don’t work, and don’t do mystery boxes. Jackson already told you how to do the adaptation - fill in the blank spaces if needed (and there are plenty of good ones) but don’t put any of YOUR STUFF (his words) in there - ever!
Of COURSE the use of “grand” by itself is not the problem. But it does point out the problems with the writing - they are trying to turn this into stupid, mystery box TV - and failing even at that.
They messed with the linguistics. How do you justify messing with the linguistics in a story written by the most famous linguist and philologist to date? 🤬
If there is no canon, then how is “Will they/won’t they break canon?” the only source of narrative tension?
So they called him Grand Elf and he goes oh ok ..my name is Gandalf.... Not Grandelf but Gandalf.
in some other review one commentator wrote, that the show runners allegedly said, that the Dark Wizard is not Saruman.
Imho that is either a diversion and he still will be reveiled as such, OR the show runners finally got the memo, that their so called "mystery boxes" Stranger and Halbrand where empty cardboard boxes and changed their original plan for Saruman because of the fan backlash... but no-one can convince me, that the show runners did NOT plan for the Dark Wizard to be Saruman...
The Looks and the repetive line "Old Friend" are more than enough evidence...
Wonder what's up with Hollywood and canon right now? Maybe they are finding that they don't like buying these big, decades-old franchises and being constrained by canon? Star Wars is doing the same thing by calling everything "tall tales."
It's because the writers are being controlled by marketing, mid level managers. Im not saying these showrunners are great but they are clearly being managed. You can see different scripts being played out
Funny enough in actual Canon 'Grand Elf' does not even work properly because elves would be actually taller than Gandalf.
A billion dollars spent on one of the worst things I have ever watched. I even watched the episodes twice, to make sure I wasn't overreacting about how bad they were, and my God, they were even worse on second watching.
Only a tourist would claim that there is "no such thing as canon". Regardless of fandom.
So Tolkien, a linguistics professor whose place and character names had meanings tied within the language of his world, would take no issue with squishing two words together that sound vaguely similar- assuming you drop a consonant- to come up with the name of one of his titular characters?
Tate brothers: "How much do we have to pay to make this all go away?" (Referring to the multiple serious criminal investigations)
Amazon: "How much do we have to pay to make you state publicity there's no such thing as canon in Tolkien?"
He’s not even an elf😒 effing wizard. They already said that too… first season …not even wise elf… omg what about mithrandi… and all that other non effing canon😒
"There really is no such thing as a recipe" - marco pierre white
I don't think he would be younger. They were angelic/other worldly beings. And from what I recall, I swear they originally came to middle earth and instead of appearing in their angelic form, they decided to appear as old wise men. They felt the leaders would have an easier time listening to them if they appeared in an old wise man form, instead of looking like an angel.
Correct. They were supposed to look like old men, so that they could persuade the people of Middle Earth to oppose Sauron, rather than overawe them.
On the one hand we have an Oxford linguistics professor who studied and invented languages.
On the other the Amazon writers whose linguistic contribution includes…
Grand+elf = Gandalf
…Jesus Christ
Canon is a word that describes sacred texts used in the liturgy. Tolkien certainly knew that. It's a shame that so many of his fans do not.
That name creation is just as bad as Han Solo's "name origin"
Is there any truth to the rumor I just made up that Amazon is planning on releasing a 12-season spin-off series featuring only the Harfoots entitled *Meandering Aimlessly into Destiny* ?
Grand Elf ... I see what they did there. The writers' genius knows no bounds
100% you really nailed it!! Tolkien literally spent 50 years creating this universe. If any body of fiction has canon it is his. This isn't like Marvel or DC comics where hundreds of writers and artists have contributed over the years. This is first and foremost Tolkiens imagination and creation. Just because he was tweaking, adjusting and rewriting parts of it does not mean there is no canon. In addition, the original author is free to alter his work as he deems fit. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT any old rando like Pain & Decay have the right to create their own baloney and call it canon. There is only one other addition, JRR Tolkien explicitly named his son Christopher as his literary heir. Christopher was heavily involved with his father's work for years and years before JRRT passed. Christopher spent decades collating and organizing his fathers notes and drafts. He did not subvert his father's work. Therefore he was in a position to add to the canon (but not subvert it). Anything written or edited by JRRT and Christopher is by definition canon and everything else is NOT!!
i agree almost completely... but would amend that only the published work should be considered hard canon and from the letters only those portions covering not already published themes as soft canon
@@belegur8108 I don’t know about distinctions between hard and soft canon. Personally I don’t like the idea of soft canon because it invites the idea of “Well JRRT was only thinking about X and had not fully formed his perspective on it. So I can insert my own baloney interpretation here.” I think that permits the kind of nonsense Pain & Decay came up with. From my perspective, if Tolkien wrote or Christopher edited and collated it it’s canon. Even if the concept is not fully formed.
@@AshishShrivastava-q6i and my soft canon too was written by tolkien alone, only edited and published after his death, so we agree on that
@@belegur8108 Great Minds!! Sir! Great Minds!!
@@AshishShrivastava-q6i thx and i can only give back the compliment 😇
▶️ Soon in 'Rings of Cringe': Gandalf's fight 🧙♂️ 💥
Dark Wizard: "Join me, Gandalf, and I will complete your training. We can overthrow Sauron and rule Middle-earth together."
Gandalf [exhausted and in pain]: "I'll never join you!"
Tom Bombadil [materializes out of nowhere]: "Hello there!"
[Duel of Fates starts playing + we see 3 wizards fighting with their wands & sticks, epic Matrix-like $h!t is happening]
Don't be so grumpy and.....sour man! - Grandelf to the mysterious dark wizard he just vanquished
Saruman?!? I guess I don't have a name yet and you have beaten me...--Saruman
I just love watching Amazon burn money. They can never argue that they can't pay their workers more because they were more than willing to blow a billion dollars on a TV show that lost them money and raised almost no revenue. At least the workers with more money would spend it and it would help the economy and most likely spend it on Amazon.
Yep. Just think - Jeff Bezos could spend that money helping to alleviate poverty, or building museums, schools, parks, concert halls, putting money into cancer research, supporting anti-homelessness measures. But no, that asshole sends himself into space and gives money to people who want to wreck classic literature and make Sauron horny for Galadriel. Cringe.
I watched season one because I wanted to be part of the in-crowd and understand why people were so upset. This is my first time commenting on anything for season 2. I actually avoid engaging with anything RoP so that my algorithm doesn’t show me anything RoP related. The best way to kill this is by ignoring it 100%.
It's pretty short sided to sell out to some temporary show or movie. Once it's done, you have nothing. No more money from Amazon, and most of your audience knows you were lying and probably leave. Pretty stupid. I'd atleast want a house or something to help me with the normal job I'll need to have when everyone leaves
I bet that in the 5th season they'll tell that it was an alternate Middle-earth universe. Like the one where Eru loves orcs. Because they are his children still. And Melko was misunderstood by the ainur because Varda chose Manve, not Melko. So the music went bad. Melko's crushing things. But in the alternate universe Erlond kisses Galadriel. Why not Sauron? Maybe Sauron went bad because Galadriel did not kiss him in the very beginning. Her brother died fighting Morgoth. Mheeah, whatever. Annatar is a rather sexy guy. Why not kissing this demigod, Gladriel? What sayst thee? Nah-nah-nah, fuck cannon, of course.
I think "canon" should be "what is generally accepted as the story up until now by the fans of the story". If there is a popularly accepted framework for how things are then that's what the show writers should have had the insight into before create their show. But they didn't, they had no idea of what was popular among the fans because they were not fans before attempting to create it.
I suppose this version of Gandalf won't be allowed to smoke his pipe, sigh. And no doubt they will have him using his powers the whole time, like a superhero.
We all knew The Stranger was Gandalf from the first promo photos and teasers, and they practically confirm it at the end of season 1, yet the showrunners claim they didn't decide on his identity until they were writing season 2. I don't like insulting people as much as I hate their work, but they're such idiots.
"Grandelf" was an obvious revel 🥱 What I'm curious about is the dark wizard. Is he intact one of the lost blue wizards who famously went east and who late would set up their own twisted cults? 🤔
Such a missed opportunity and just a completely misunderstanding of the fan base. I have genuinely tried to give the show a go, but to not make the him a Blue Wizard was just sad.
WOW I am impressed, 8 year old me mispronounced Gandalf and Grandelf and I quickly realised how freaking stupid that was it's a shame that has stuck with me for 42 years. You know what else is a shame that probably will stick with me for years to come is sitting through 3 episodes of this trash show, I can't imagine how much brain damage Tolkien fans would get from watching all of this show.
Rings of Power isn't just the worst LOTR fanfic ever made, it may just be the worst fanfic ever made, period.
The character with amnesia plot is weak soap opera fodder. I thought the way Gandalf was delivered to Middle Earth was hillarious, like the SNL alien abduction skit where the aliens dropped Kate McKinnon naked in a field, all so ROP could run a weak amnesia sub plot. Who did Gandalf piss off that he got delivered by being shot out of a cannon (except there is no cannon)
Next. Gandalf will wake up, and the previous 2 seasons were a dream.
They could have gone with Alatar instead of Gandalf
Wonder if Amazon knows a certain Mithrandir fella
The wizard Olorin received the name Gandalf from his time in the Northern kingdom of Arnor. Not that accurate lore matters to Wrongs Of Power. 🙄
The cringe levels are off the charts
Gandalf was there in the second age but not as Gandalf he is a being who takes on many forms, Tolkien himself said in any medium cannon must be followed or you destroy the story.
OMG, you mean he's Gandalf, how could I not have seen that, totes didn't see that coming. Damn fine script writing, worth every penny.
if it's written down, its CANON, otherwise we just have to call it "some words".
Fanfiction. And bad fanfiction. I honestly do not understand why this exists
please don't call it Fanfiction... nothing fan about that... call it Corporate Fiction... just name grabbing for an initial audience, that would never have touched that show, without the title...
$$$$$$$$$$.
When the he first appeared in season 1 everyone was upset at how lore breaking it was 4 him to show up so early, and on a comet? Wtf? People complained so much the show runners insisted that he’s not Gandalf and is actually a different character, so it’s totally fine. But since he is in fact grand oaf, that excuse 4 why it wasn’t lore breaking is complete bs and they were in fact totally shting on the lore.
This show is so bad it boggles the mind. If 5 yo proposed something like this, they'd be laughed out of the room. It's absurdly bad, it's so bad that I'm almost considering it's some form of performance art instead of genuine attempt to make a TV series.
Amazon should have used the Dark Land to produce their shitty show. Away from the Lore...
"The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not preceiving where the core of the original lies."
J.R.R. Tolkien, Letters #210
It's a lot to ask for the show to follow the canon, when the show does not follow its own continuity between seasons, episodes and even within the same episode. After they had the equivalent of several nuclear bombs going off on top of most of the main characters and the next episode they are all completely unharmed, I certainly gave up all hope on the writers caring about anything.
Tolkien created arguably the most solid, detailed canon of any fantasy author. His writings are the epitome of canonical. Corey Olsen clearly understands nothing about Tolkien's works.
Lord of the Rings isn’t like Star Wars, where there were several different writers that had different stories and explanations. This is Lord of the Rings, created and written by the one and only J.R.R. Tolkien. This show wouldn’t exist without the “canon” of Tolkien’s work.
Up there with Star Wars’ new take that there is no good or evil, just opinion.
"Hold the door!" "Holddoor!" "Hodor!" So now they steal ideas also from other shows? Hahahahahaha
It's a crappy version of HOLD THE DOOR.
Never seen an episode- never will. FATWA upon Amazon!
This show was written by fart sniffing smooth brained mouth breathers. That is all.
hmmm... i wonder what would happen if i made a video "to catch a predator: mickey mouse" because "there is no canon in disney"
No thanks. Never seen an episode! They could not legally make the Silmarillion so they found a loophole in what right they do have and well…
That's not what Gandalf means . Gandalf means staff elf , there are several versions of his name and none of them came from hobbits
just say repeatedly Hold the door >>>>>>>>>Hodor
just say repeatedly Grand elf>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gandalf
If there's no such thing as cannon, then why didn't they get the rights to everything 😂
I like the show, but I must admit the grandelf thing is kinda silly.