For that we have to wait a little. I expect that in summer I will produce too much energy for our home. I am interested in how long we can survive without buying electricity. My guess is around 9 months during the year.
I've helped a couple of family members choose their commercially installed systems, both running for ~12 years. A lot has changed in that time in terms of costs, vendors, technology, and regulation. But relevant to this channel's audience, there is still opportunity for the maker/DIY community to help with *monitoring* of residential solar. Both homes had their (non-Chinese) string inverters fail outside their warranty periods. These failures made the importance of monitoring more significant. Most inverters have serial output for monitoring, (modbus is common, but with vendor-specific data formats). But at least in the US customers tend to be tied to whatever 3rd-party monitoring system their installer uses, often with an over-priced hardware component locked to one cloud monitoring company. One of our big solar installers even went out of business leaving thousands of customers without access to their own monitoring data for a couple of years! Given that monitoring could easily be done by the ESP32s we play with here every day, feeding a grafana server in the cloud, it's shocking how expensive it is for solar customers using limited turn-key monitoring solutions. I look forward to seeing what @Andreas Spiess does for monitoring...
I for sure will have a look into the monitoring aspect because I assume we have to change our habits because currently, electricity during night is cheaper than during the day.
@@AndreasSpiess Interesting to know that bit about electricity being cheaper at night in Switzerland. In Karachi, Pakistan, 6 pm to 10 pm are considered peak hours costing more per kWh, with 10 pm to 6pm (20 hours) being off-peak hours. And different cities have different peak hour ranges.
My SolarMax inverter is still running fine after more that 10 years, but I didn't notice when an animal damaged the wires to the solar panels and I lost half a year of solar production. I now added an ESP8266 as a watchdog. The inverter has a fault indicator relay (german "störmeldekontakt") that I used to check if the system is running.
This was an excellent DIY episode and very timely as well. I'm really looking forward to the continuation of this project. You may influence many viewers worldwide to engage in their neighborhood and take on such green projects. Cheers.
Great project :). I just finished my Offgrid system w/ 7.6Kwc+8Kva inverter+15Kwh LFPO battery... everything in DIY. I bought a chinese hybrid inverter (voltronic) and prismatic LFPO cells coupled with a JKBMS. Be aware with the roof installation option... to clean them (from snow in winter, pollen in spring), you need an easy access to the roof... Personally, I installed as sun shading over twp pergolas (2 strings with 2 orientations). Super easy maintenance in this case. You are right the panel price is less than a 1/4 of the project. Tools, metal struture, cables, electrical protection system, etc... costs also a lot. Anyway my system costs me less than 10 Keuros (pergolas incluted). I am fully offgrid 90% of the time. I built a PCB "PVbrain" (open hardware/open software) to monitor both BMS and inverter plus some control of some relays for example to control an Automatic Transfert switch (to go Offgrid or to the grid). The ESP32 is running ESPhome for an HA integration and controls.
cool approach. IMO starting with off grid system is most educational, esp one gets aware of how much energy one actually needs - in the annual balance span. Thing to consider is that Many modern devices can run fine on DC. There are loads of 12V and 24V off the shelf devices tailored for truck drivers, boat owners and RV dwellers, often very power efficient - dishwashers, fridges, lightbulbs, laptop chargers, cellphone chargers, lighs - just a visit to a camper supplies store is a good eye opener. 12V and 24V DC is easy to handle for amateurs, not a big risk of electric shock, though a bit of fire safety as most people will skip RCD on 24V and wires and connectors need to be beefy. But then thanks to USA most devices like microwaves , fridges, phone chargers etc. can run fine on wide range of DC - from 110V to 310V. Another solution are microinverters, easing creation of modular PV systems using quite thin wires to create small AC PV augmented grid - microinverters can be installed close to the panels. This is good option if one needs to have AC grid because of some high load device, like water pump in a well, but installing panels close to load and having extra shed to house inverters etc is not really desired. This way one only needs thick wires and smalm fuse box close to the pump, then wire up thin wires coming from small panel/microinverter circuits , each protected with small fuse. Last but not least some devices need not to be powered non stop. F.e. fridge can be powered only when there is plenty of sun, most modern fridges can hold the frost for over 24h. Same goes for big loads like the water pump submerged in a well - if equipped with soft start and industrial inverter/motor controler , it can start up slowly and operate at half the power when there is no sun and it runs on backup, like batteries. This should be enough to make dishwasher or washing machine run in the evening, while during the day one can enjoy full water pressure for pressure washer or watering the garden with a hose. Anyway, keep trying and greetings!
yeah making on pergolas does sound like a really good option, especially for home DIY and having a means to do maintenance on panels more easily without them being all the way up on the roof where they are more difficult or expensive to access it also seems to me (and this is also applicable / can work in an off grid system), that it makes some sense to be dumping excess surplus energy into a home hot water heat pump, then using the house hot water. so a heat pump is maybe at least another 5k. however the final piece of the puzzle i am missing is how to water cool the solar panels and any optimizers mounted under the panels, and then cycle that warmed water into a such heat pump system. that would then prolong the working lifetime of the panel and optimizers, reduce failures, and reclaim some of the residual wasted heat from the back of the panels --> again into an upgraded version the house hot water system. so that part i have not researched fully yet - it just seems like if you were to go to all the trouble of installing water cooling pipes under the solar panels, then there should also be some mechanism for house cooling / hvac too during hot summertime months. for example to have multiple switchable water circuits. with one circuit going to the panels, and another circuit going into the ground (or loft attic space radiator, or other such types of heat exchanger etc.). And those extra complexity / cost / performance trade offs ends up become more difficult to 'see the best way(s)'. especially for a specific property, when different from each other, (and in different locations / different seasonal climate / etc. etc.)
@@dreamcat4 Using precious electricity for heating water or heat pump is bad idea. If You need hot water, use thermal solar heaters - glass vacuum tubes with heat pipes inside heating water tank above. totally passive system, works even in the northern climate, 90% efficient and because pipes are round - no need for solar tracking, and most of all - cheap and does not use any precious metals or electronics. With 90% efficiency you get almost 1KW per square meter. Getting 10KW is easy. Also easy to scale - either connect the new system in parallel if you need more hot water or in serial if for some reason you need hotter water. Heat pipes do not work above 70C, so system regulates temp. passively. If you have excess electricity from solar system, think how to use it for profit - sell it to neighbors if law allows that, get bitcoin miner, or get some small machine to produce something usefull - f.e. briquettes from biomas, aerogel making machine , cryogenic air separator to make liquid nitrogen (there are miniature ones avail) , small furnace to melt precious metals to inglots etc. etc. - just visit closest technical university and ask students for ideas, you will get plenty. Ad cooling of solar panels - air cooling is very good . But You do not need to rock open doors, there are hybrid solar panels available too. You can use this low grade heat to preheat water entering household, then things like washing machines use less power to heat it up , or you can use it for pre-heating floor heating.
thanks @@piotrcurious1131 for these tips, i am indeed very interested in finding out more about these other options, and in combination together with each other
Great! I am glad I get some help here. Particularly because of all the small details (a lot of them non-electrical). In the end someone has to give the ok and if I do not know the details, I might have to change something...
I had just spoken with a solar installer about a proposal for a system less than an hour ago. Now your video is here in TH-cam, wonderful. However, Google/TH-cam/Alphabet seems to know me very well!
Thanks for the interesting video. I'm interested is the newest aspects in this technology as I didn't follow too much in the recent years. I am from Germany, where we had huge subsidies for solar systems. So I bought in 2009 a 30kWp system for my house (old farm house, roof orientation to the south) - a great commercial decision- perhaps the best so far. Before the investment, I made a big Excel sheet calculating the income versa the cost for the bank loan, calculated maintenance, write offs etc. over 20 years - a small commercial balance for each of the years even considering the estimated payable income tax. This calculation clearly showed that there is money laying on the floor and I just have to bend my back and pick it up and get things organized. For estimating how much energy I can harvest over the year, I used the same tool Andreas is showing in his video. I then went on Google Earth and checked the roofs my closer neighbors and put their data in my Excel sheet and presented the results to them. The idea was the government is paying huge subsidies, and I wanted not to be the only guy to benefit from it and then being later told, I make money out of their pockets. I also decided to go for German made solar components because of the subsidies paid by the government and the money needs to go back into the country and not somewhere far east. I could convince couple of neighbours to follow my step and get a solar system. Well, the result today is that my system is making over 10% more energy than predicted compared to a new - not aged - system. In my Excel Sheet I also calculated the ageing with 0.5% per year and there the average gain is today +14% compared to the prediction. Need to say that I am living very south at the foots of the alps. So far I did not have to replace an inverter, which I was considering to do every 10 years. Maintenance is zero. Only in the beginning I had an issue with martens (Marder) eating the cables like in cars. My statistics clearly shows that the gain of energy was in the first years closer to the estimation tool and the 'over' gain in energy increased in the recent years dramatically - scary - we have to do something !!! My decision to go for a solar system was clearly commercial with the benefit of being a green decision. Today I see it differently. Today my plan is to put the old solar panels on the north side of the roof and install on the south the best efficient new panels in order to harvest more power. I can expect to get with new panels 60-65% more energy from the south and still getting from the north 70% of what I get in the south. With all that energy I want to run a heat pump to replace most of my heating oil consumption for the big house and to go for a electric driven car. One last comment on the inverter. I have got a old designer 12V rope lamp in one of my rooms with a toroidal transformer. There you can hear the inverter hammering the energy into the grid, when the sun is shining. 'Perhaps an idea of measuring the energy gain by the noise 😉 '... Besides that EMI is no issue. Andreas' Video is very interesting for me, as I will have to deal with shadow generating obstacles like chimneys and satellite antenna and other things. And I wonder what else he is putting on the table to consider. So I learned already a bit in this episode. Thanks a lot. Sorry for the length of the comment, but I also want to motivate people to go for this technology.
As to shadows, one option is not to put a panel where there will be shadows, another one is that some newer systems use a cable from each panel instead of putting them in series, so they're run in parallel. Of course this increases the cost of cabling (not just in length but gauge) but it makes shadows a non issue.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It deserves the space. You are already a "solar veteran"! Just about buying Chinese or German: My panels are German but I fear that the most important parts, the modules, come from China. Also all the parts in European inverters would come from there. Long time ago, western countries decided that we want the Chinese to improve our standard of living with their cheap labor. There is still a lot of "Swiss" and "European" cost inside my system because our wages are extremely high.
@@AndreasSpiess Andreas, may be my comment sounds a bit too nationalistic - sorry. I have no issues with China. But those days there was a nice manufacturing of solar modules in East Germany pushed by the government - at least that's what they told. My are Solarworld - now bankrupt '🤣'...😭, thanks to the wise German politics. My inverters are SMA. But you surely are right, that there are certain quantities of components in, coming from Asia. That's ok. But I am getting 43 CT net per kWh going into the grid - until end of 2029- , and somebody has to pay for that. So I thought, I shouldn't be too greedy and try to save the last EUR on the investment. AND I am also a shareholder in our 'Bürgersolar' - a community arrangement of our village on the roof of our local school. There they bought cheapest modules from a local guy selling modules from Far East ... , guess which one performs better...😉 , so I am happy. Today, where the subsidies are much less, I would not be so strict on buying an European product, but those modules with the best efficiency - let's say one from the top in the ranking. Luckily there are options, even from a Swiss company 😉. What really counts is, the more kWh we produce, the better for all - especially these days. When I look around and see still many roofs with south orientation - big roofs - in my neighborhood, I am always thinking 'oh man you missed something'. And today we need almost an obligation to get these roofs covered. And the amazing thing is, that even a roof with north orientation shall be giving 65-70% of the preferred south orientation. Of course these solar systems are not a real decoration of a house, especially when it is traditional and kind of historical - my is from the 17th century ... , but how to give such a building a future? In my eyes no choice. And for sure better than putting it on fields. So, I just can encourage people to go for solar systems. The technology works great without a hazel.
We installed a 13kwp Enphase microinverter system, as I could test they are ham/amateur friendly. System has been operating 2 full years with minimal RF noise or any ofher issues. No battery, as we had backup generator. If I was dealing with Net metering energy supplier, I would likely install a battery to minimize loss of selling to energy supplier versus storing and using at night. Our energy provider does not purchase excess produced energy! They track our excess production sent to grid and our consumption from grid. Months where exported > imported from grid, the excess kWhs are carried to next month. Months exported < imported, we are billed for difference of imported-exported.
You are lucky because you have an excellent system! Much better than the one here. I still hope we will get back to such a simple system. And thanks for mentioning that the Enphase inverters are quiet. My neighbor will probably use a few of them for another project.
Fun project! I have to say its always wonderful when neighbors can talk things through and work together. It seems you are good at this; I wish to have neighbors like you!
I made the decision 7 years ago, is still one of my top investments ! I have 4 kW peak, just covers my year consumption. In Belgium, we still can have the old electricity meter which turns backwards. In 2025, this will change, and a digital meter with separate counting will be installed.
Wow, great video! It's interesting how economics have changed over the decade, and I enjoyed seeing your details. I'm in California where we sometimes have "net metering"meaning the sale price and purchase price in and out of the grid are the same. But it's changing and there was a proposal to charge a tax based on the kWP installed. So the more you install, the more you pay! We also have high permitting fees. I was surprised you do as well. Some years ago I read an analysis by American national labs on costs in Germany vs the US. Germany was about half the cost. Part was because the cost of sales and marketing was 4x higher in the US, and also the German installers could do it in less than half the time. Part of this was scale-- the incentives in Germany at the time were a bit crazy, but they did succeed in building the industry. I wonder what your Swiss sales and marketing costs for commercial installers are included in the price. Here in California I think its still high, and permitting costs are high. It's amazing that panel costs are1/7 the total price-- as you mention, just add more. A friend of mine had solar installed last year-- she wanted the Tesla Powerwall battery, even though it does not make economic sense (but now we have power shutoffs if there is high wind and chance of starting a fire). I think my friend's price and yours seem similar, but the battery was pretty expensive, and extra $14K.
It seems that each country is very different. This is why I did not focus on the absolute cost. Sales margins here are easily 30% of the end price and our wages are high. I think everybody has to do the calculations where he or she lives. Batteries came down in price and I was astonished when I saw the Huawei offer. But now they start to get more expensive because of a high demand.
@@AndreasSpiess I am starting to plan my own system since I live in sunny Florida USA and my electricity supplier offers rebates for going solar. Another great resource is Will Prowse whose TH-cam channel can be found here. th-cam.com/users/WillProwse
We went the DIY route here. Putting the structure together, doing the wiring and setting up the inverter were the easy part. Getting the panels up the roof was the real pain. We went for 550Wp panels, and they weigh 28kg. That was the point I thought having an installer was a good idea, those guys come with cranes or elevators. Second DIY we did was my parents, and there we went for much smaller 280Wp panels. Though not a lot lighter, those were a lot easier to carry up to the roof.
Thank You for the good presentation of the basic economical facts. If your warm water boilers are run by electricity, making them to be swiched on, when panels create electricity, is an improvement to total economy. At the roof there should be reserved space for a person cleaning the panels; dust and snow.
Can't wait for your 2nd 3rd and more installments. We have a 7.3k system with a 10kh battery. Ours cost $25k in Australia. Very happy with it. Also helping friends install an off-grid system with solar and wind.
I just finished my selfmade 4KWP system. I had the luck to find a company that provided planning, material and help and as well did the final checks. I can only recommend to go this way as the most limiting factor in the moment is the workload of the companys. Material is possible to get. And it is so satisfying to produce your own power.
Great video, thank you! Due to the roof we have, we have an east/west installation with the 12 cells lying almost flat (7°) and 9 + 9 are mounted east / west at 43°. The outcome is, that the production is somewhat better distributed over the whole day instead of having a rather sharp peak at noon. In addition I created a little dashboard out of an ePaper display and esp-home all mounted in a picture frame. This helps the entire household to optimize the "Eigenverbrauch" by switching on the laundry machine or the dishwasher, when the panel indicates a surplus production. So far everybody is very committed to save energy costs and CO2 emissions ;-) Some less important knowledge, as blackouts are still very seldom in middle Europe: My inverter has a significantly reduced life time when it has to operate in island mode. My guess is that this mode puts more stress on the capacitors.
Cool that you have started your PV project and rely on our mounting system Dome 6 ☀Thank you for this detailed and practical video! Grüße in die Schweiz!
Without the expert support this would not be practical for most people. I guess you are lucky where you live, We had a Solaredge 6KWp + Tesla 13.5KWh (Powerwall II) installed professionally 5 years ago. The installation took 1/2 a day and has been working flawlessly since. Plus we have a 25 year warranty on Solar and 10 years on battery which is something you don't mention. The cost back then was about $15000 USD. Also had some split heat pumps and electric hot water system to use excess PV (additional costs), I guess an electric vehicle would also be good for this. Interesting stuff. Looking forward to see how it goes for you.
The warranties are similar to yours (25 and 10 years). We have distant heating where they use wood, and I cannot park my car in front of my home. So I will deliver the excess energy to the grid...
An excellent, informative video, and a very important undertaking. Let‘s strive to make projects like this easy and affordable for everyone. I have great respect for the co-op and for similar organizations that are working to do just that. And not to forget, the mountainous Swiss landscapes in the background, when Andreas takes his videos outside, are absolutely lovely. No wonder that most of us imagine Switzerland as a world of fantasy.
@@AndreasSpiess with regards to electronics for home improvement, it's always a risk to take leadership in any projects that involve other home owners, because sometimes things don't go as hoped and it is difficult to explain to people with little or no expertise in the field why it isn't your fault that it went that way. Must be extra tough when one is a TH-cam celebrity 🙂
Thanks for the analysis Andreas. I've been playing with solar charged, battery powered Raspberry Pi sensors for my astronomy hobby in my back garden. I've convinced the wife that our next house will have enough solar to provide power to the house, charge a large battery array in an out building, and provide some power back to the grid when the batteries are full. Our circumstance here in the US is very different from western Europe but I very much respect the desire to become independent of power providers.
Regarding destruction of the roof: In my country, as far as I know, they never drill into flat roofs to tie down solar panel installations. Its scary (because of leaks) and also when the wind gets really bad it can rip open your roof (esp since the large surface area of panels can act as sails). Hence why they put them "loose" on the roof with some weight. If the wind gets really bad they just fly away but leaves your roof (possibly) intact.
Interesting! The first points are the same here. The last one (flying away) should not happen because so far we never had extreme weather like in other countries.
As soon as one starts talking about solar power, you hit regulatory challenges. I am not sure we will make the needed turn around this way. Here in Germany, I wanted to run a Balkonkraftwerk. There are sone you just plug and play. However, my energy provider dislikes it, and told me to install a special socket to plugin the system, installed by a professional company. Now, I get why not everyone should fiddle around with high voltage, but the so created extra costs consume the advantage almost completely even if the energy prices are expected to rise ...
I hope that our current energy situation in Europe will help to stop these ridiculous discussions. Here we must use a proper inverter and the electrical installation must be done anyway by an electrician. The rest seems to be a well-established process. The special plug is necessary because they fear that you will be electrocuted by the unprotected contacts of an ordinary 240-volt plug.
@@AndreasSpiess Yes, but at the same time the inverters for such smaller solar installations are taking care of not delivering power when not synced with your power grid. To me it sounds, like some regulatory department needs to establish rules just to make itself important. But hey, it is as it is.
@@AndreasSpiess Isn't the solution obvious? Have a simple license, similar to a driver's license. I image two tests: a practical test and a theoretical test. The practical test might take around 15 minutes; the theoretical test might take around 30 minutes. The cost to take both tests might be around €100. I suppose currently licensed engineers and electricians would be exempt from the test. In my experience, and from what I have observed, when governments get into the business of running schools, they usually do a terrible job. By contrast, when governments provide licenses for various professions, they often do a very good job. After all, it's not very difficult to devise tests to judge competence; whereas, by contrast, it's generally deceptively difficult to properly educate students.
@@AndreasSpiess cooling is an issue here as efficiency of solar panels go down at higher temperatures, humidity could cause problems if you don't use a weatherproof construction to mount the panels.
Thank you for the excellent video and glory to Ukraine. I am in the process of building my first solar project. I went back and forth on what to use for a long time and ended up with a solar edge system. Dear in Colorado I have to meet rapid shutdown requirements at the panel level. Figuring out how to navigate that with an off-grid system became two complex for my first project and that's how I ended up with the solar edge system. I was also able to find it for a very reasonable price with some used components. Had I watched your video first I may not have gone with the solar edge system and I definitely would have gone with a larger system. Thanks for all your insights and I look forward to seeing your system completed.
Did an installation with my son last year, accompanied with an association . Good experience. Did not install a Backup Battery, would do it now but inverter is not compatible.
"kWp" can also mean "kilowatt Panel". Same usage though: manufacturer's marketing number, bears some resemblance to reality.. An interesting project. Also worth noting, E+W facing often provides more power in the morning and evening, S facing (for you over the equator types) provides more peak power at the middle of the day, but less morning and evenings. Temperature matters too, hot panels produce less kW. 2mx1m and 25kg is huge / unwieldy. Do not drop them! (My last string of panels was 310W and 1.6mx1m and 19kg each) Finally, a bit late for you, but in addition to hybrid/battery inverters often limiting you to one phase from battery, many also have a smaller kW rating for running off battery vs the grid. As I found out. I can run my "essential loads" panel off the inverter; but if the power does go down, the "inrush" switching from grid to battery tends to trip the overcurrent and the house shuts down anyway. Sad.duc. Solution is to have bought a bigger inverter in the first place :D
Yes,these panels are big! Concerning switchover: I will get this feature later. It is currently sold out. And afaik they interrupt electricity for a moment.
brother, that is THE PROJECT of the decade! Please provide more info about the battery: what is the expectation? (how much energy they can store? etc. how many hours do you expect per 24h to be on own energy etc.) LOVE IT!
One thing I have realised is that a significant proportion of our power consumption comes from heating water. If I was planning a system I would consider breaking out the water heater from the power generation. I haven't run the numbers to see if the double-conversion (sunlight to electricity and then to heat) creates significant loss of efficiency. But that also gives an option for placing a solar water heater in an optimal direction, coupled to the time of day when hot water is needed most. Although that varies from summer to winter when the heating comes on. Which also raises the question of types of heating - heat pumps? There's more to this than meets the eye!
Great video Andreas, indeed there is a lot of savings when you do some work on your own. And - keep in mind - most electronic components (inverter, batteries, heat pumps, power walls,etc) can these days talk to each other, what I used to have a raspberry pi in the "middle" of the installation to not only monitor the various devices but to also prioritise the consumption of the various users. In that regard we not always have the heat pump on first priority when we leave for the week-end but prefer to load the electric cars etc. And, most important, when the batteries are full and still having an overproduction, we start a heater in the water boiler to make the hot water free of charge. All this got realised - and here we are back to Andreas channel - with a raspberry pi and node red!
The battery and the inverter should communicate for the moment. The rest might come in the future. Because we have distance heating with wood and no air conditioning our electricity consumption is mainly flat (my lab and some other stuff) plus the kitchen and the washer (high current) which currently are started manually. I am sure I will see some opportunities for node-red in the future ;-)
Excellent, and thorough presentation, as usual, Andreas. I look forward to the next installment; both of your system, & your TH-cam channel. For those who are planning/have solar, but cannot afford the battery expense (only grid-tied), I would suggest they look at hot water diverters. These devices, which are wired into the solar electrical system-hence require authorised installation, by an electrician, redirect usable solar power, to the hot water cylinder's (if electrical) element, when it calls for heat. It would be far preferable to have your solar generation going towards your own energy usage, as opposed to putting it back into the national grid, for a pittance. As HW heating makes up a significant proportion, of any residential power bill, you are effectively using free energy, as opposed to paying normal tariff rates, from your supplier. I estimated, that in New Zealand, one could reach payback, even if a low power user, in approximately 2-3 years. In my talks, with clients (I am not in the industry), who have solar, none have even heard of these devices. IMO, they would be the most essential solar add-on, for any grid-tied system. You may want to consider doing a video on these great unheralded devices. I would look forward to that. Keep up the great work.
I understand your point and my MBA heart would agree. But as a trained EE i cannot support to waste the most valuable energy to create hot water only because our politicians cannot create a fair price. I hope now that with the current situation of high energy prices and the fear at least in Europe that we will have a cold winter, people start to understand how valuable electricity is for our daily life. Maybe the situation in NZ is different and you have plenty of electricity. Then of course your proposal is also ok for me.
In some countries the power sell situation has become so bad that the energy suppliers charge you to back-feed into the grid. That's why I think everyone should go off-grid.
A zero export inverter solves that problem. It should be possible to make one with wired sensors based on a STM32, going wireless would likely need a FPGA. I'm working on turning a Prius inverter (about $100) into such a zero export inverter, also with a VFD output for thermal storage HVAC.
Maybe this situation will change and you will be able to sell your energy in the future because we will not have enough energy with e-mobility and no more gas power plants.
Congrats Andreas, my e-wende 25kWp installation runs since almost a month, I very happy, todya I got 40kWh of my roof. I now orderd an AC coupled Victron ESS, which is also a very interessting project. Cheers from Bern, Ritschy
Excellent comparison! Here in Sri Lanka where I live, we're going through a huge economic crisis. As a result we're having 4+ hours of power cuts daily and even more in some days. I kinda saw this coming and installed an off-grid solar system beforehand and I'm proud to say that I'm relatively unaffected by the power cuts. My system includes 1.3 kW of peak power solar array ( bought some used polycrytalline and monocrystalline panels for cheap) , Sako Isun 3kW off-grid inverter and CATL 120Ah 24V LiFePo4 battery pack ( 8 cells ). However my LiFePo4 batteries are still coming from China, so I'm using a couple of Lead Acid Car batteries for the time being. I did everything DIY so didn't cost anything for for work. Going to install 2 more similar systems on 2 of my relatives homes in coming weeks :)
I wish I'd be one of your neighbors. I'd partake on that project. (sadly, my neighborhood is ...not particulary fund of DIY-projects; damn what could we save with such a project) Keep us up to date with the project! (maybe your videos will do the trick? ;)
I look forward to see the EMI performance of your installed system. I am a radioamateur always looking for weak signals and thinking of “optimizers” in the roof and switching inverters gives me nightmares. That’s why I procrastinate on this ;)
and yet we almost all use a PC that incorporates multiple switched mode DC/DC converters with some as big as a 1.2V 120 Amps regulator to provide the power for the CPU. The high power switching inverters that are being used in solar installations have a much higher EMI compatibility designed in (because of strict specifications for connecting high currents to the power grid) than all the other stuff with switched mode converters we have. Each LED light-bulb, phone charger, power-bank and any type of portable equipment has switched mode converters ;-)
I hope @rumblfmp is right. We had some issues with optimizers on the roof (as mentioned in the video). The supplier had to modify each of them to be compliant :-( I have no electronics on the roof, only DC. But I will check it, of course.
Excellent video Andreas. I have an older installation on a flat roof, it has already paid for itself. But a recent installation at the neighbours (same area) already has twice as much power, it is the old fashioned south facing setup. With an east/west setup I could double the number of panels and modern panels are almost twice the peak power. Together with the current high inflation it is better to spend the money on a new install (and recycle the old panels/inverter for the shed) than keep it in the bank.
I had planned on a similar DIY approach next year, since most "installers" with pv packages to sell do it so poorly (even hazardous, studies have shown) in this hot market. They don't plan to stay in the business and have little or no aftermarket support here in Sweden. I also think there's value to have the receipts and warranties and not risk having a third party to deal with, if you are someone who can read and understand some technical documentation and the domain lingo. Haven't really been crossed my mind to look up any non profit organization around this, and also haven't been thinking about my neighbours and how we might be a few to have the exact same ideas and plans.. thanks for those aspects and also the clear budget work/main areas to account for. Modern string inverters in combination with 3 or 6 (half cut) bypass diodes per panel really do make most of the arguments for individual panel optimizers or microinverters a bad decision. Extreme shading issues perhaps. Panels malfunctioning or spotting worse performance numbers than manufacturer's specifications/warranties would be good to have though..
Indeed, it is a lot of fun working with my neighbors! And spotting a bad performance should not be too complicated, I think because the whole string will suffer and the loss should be detectable. Finding the bad panel then can be done with a thermal camera...
i work with this and i personally would diy but then again i mount integrated and non integrated panels every day :) one thing to think about is to not go the shortest way with the + and - from the panels because that will give you strange radio disturbances.
Good point. We wired the minus in parallel to the plus going from panel to panel (it needed much longer minus cables). Without the help of an experienced person, I would not have known it!
Just like you this background idea of solar power has jumped up in priority. I too like the idea of DIY (although commercial prices I have here in Ireland for a 10kw system are around €15k, so quite a bit cheaper than Switzerland it seems…or maybe they have not told me the whole story yet), so will be very interested in how you get on. If I understand right though, you do have an organisation who will help with the install? Signing off the electrical installation for connection to the grid is my one concern for DIY. Not sure yet how that would work. But another great video and I look forward to more on this! Ralph
1. Fortunately, salaries are also high here ;-) Which is part of the problem of the high labor prices, of course. 2. Yes, we have the help of a project manager from the "Energiewende Genossenschaft". He does all the planning, Paperwork, and instructs us on the roof. 3. A professional examiner must certify our installation after completion. And we are only allowed to work on the DC side. The AC side has to be done by a professional electrician.
Looking forward to seeing your project’s progress. We have solar and batteries and are very happy with the results. We no longer have any net electrical usage. And in the event of a power outage, we can retain power for most of the day during winter and indefinitely during Spring though Fall.
Good on you going solar. I started my solar journey in June 2020 at the height of the pandemic right after a one week power outage. I went 100% DIY but my arrays are ground mounted. I get about 11KW from both arrays and have just expanded my battery LifeP04 capacity to 968AH at 48V or ~48KWH which should run my house for 3 days without sun with margin. I will be adding another 4KW of panels to my observatory roof in early summer to allow me to run the airconditioners during the day and charge batteries. I wanted to add a 1.5KW wind turbine (for use in crappy weather and windy sunless days) but my town wouldn't let me do that - I suspect at the behest of the electricity supplier that I no longer pay outrageous electricity bills to. The US FTC is investigating Asian companies for dumping solar panels in the US so now buying them from reputable sources has now become harder and ultimately more expensive, thankfully I bought the 4KW additional panels just before the FTC stepped in. I also did not go grid tied as I didn't want to deal with that bureaucratic nightmare and the electricity company benefiting from the spread at which they buy and sell.
In our climate and as a married man it would not be possible to go off-grid. It would be too much of a compromise for my wife ;-) Your installation is much bigger than mine, of course. My panels are from Germany, but I assume the inside still is Chinese...
Nice to see a bigger project. I started "just for fun" with a smaler Solar DIY project for my bee-house. But may be I will continue in phase II to solarize my house where I live. I hope I can get some learnings from you, as we have similar conditions from the region and gouverment. Regards Frape
Great, I'll be following along. I've also been looking at PV but have concluded that it will be difficult to save sufficient money to justify the cost .
Instead of selling the power back to the grid, consider bit mining the power. During the winter you could divert the heat back to the house. Right now, the price of a used bit miner is low. The other use is the electric water heater using low quality dc (with no inverter loss) from the panels. Prior and post direct sun, the panels could directly be used for the resistive heater element in the water heater. You forgot to account for the winter snow covering the panels at 10 degrees vice 39 degrees. Do you think you can utilize the direct short rating for melting the snow on the panels if you shunt short the output in the snow covered panels in the winter???
Andreas, Du schaffst es immer wieder mich mit Themen zu locken. Ich bin auf dieses Projekt von Dir sehr gespannt und möchte sehr gerne im nächsten Jahr eine DIY-Lösung im hohen Norden von Deutschland umsetzen. Viel Erfolg bei diesem Projekt und gaaaaaaanz viel Spaß dabei. Ich freue mich auf die weiteren Videos. Cheers Antonio
The drawback which I see is that solar panel and battery technology is changing very fast. Panel efficiency has dramatically improved during the last 5 years. So too has battery technology. So, anything that has a payoff of 10 years or more will likely be obsolete by the time it is paid off. Still, you are correct in that the cost of grid electricity is bound to keep going up.
With the current rises in price of electricity I for sure do not need to wait 10 years for the payback. Spot prices seem to be 10x higher than two years ago and everybody orders e-cars...
This video definately needs continuation. Also, most important here is real payback time which is not easy to calculate precisely, but approximation can help.
@@AndreasSpiess 6-10 sounds good. Also, means that energy prices are much higher in Switzerland. We are at about 16-18c/kwh (the prices will probably rise due to situation) and we are still struggling to convince people to go for solar that will pay for itself in 10yrs.
Interesting project explained very clearly. Thank you. Other considerations: Roof condition and type? Work or just walking might shorten life and/or necessitate early replacement (e.g., membrane). Are unusual, rare high winds possible? Liability? Even those block weights might all go flying in a tornado.
As you describe there are risks involved. The climate below the panels will change a lot (cooler and more humid) which will reduce the strain on the membranes. But maybe we destroy something. Wind will not be a problem because we got the ballast data from the manufacturer. And the overall weight is comparable to 11cm of snow...
I live completely off-grid with a DIY system that is much smaller than your planned system. Still, I struggle with RFI on the HF bands from both my charge controller and my inverter. Some mix 31 toroids has helped but commercial RFI filters are next on the list.
Thank you for the great inspiration 👍 in the present time of broken supply chains, exploding material costs and inflation I'm in doubt to decide for an own system. Maybe it will all regulate back later. Greetings from sunny south 🇩🇪
Excellent. Finally no more excuses for me to not going solar. I would be interested in future video to perhaps hear about what to do if one is concerned about hacking into inverter and setting house or battery on fire. Perhaps not connecting to internet (not sure if electrical company would accept that) or choosing one brand over the other. I believe US government does not support installation of Huawei network equipment. Not sure about inverters and their vulnerability.
I do not fear hacking because my system is connected to the grid. So the voltage in my house will always be defined by the grid. And I chose LiFePo4 because they do not burn. The chance I will be killed on a zebra crossing is much higher ;-)
I have to admit I only came here because I totally misinterpreted "DIY Solar System" and wanted to find out how you would justify such insane ambition! However having found you are not actually claiming God-like DIY powers and your ambitions are more modest, this turns out to be one of the most useful TH-cam videos I've ever watched! I have a house with an east-west pitched roof, but with large nearly flat areas over dormer windows (ironically, although in South West England, the house is built on the pattern of a "Swiss" chalet). Extensive shadowing from trees and lack of roof area pitched south led me to think solar would be impractical, but this video has given me cause to re-think! Thank you!
very pretty land... beautiful trees and lots of sun shine 😉 you can mount the solar-panels to mimic a sunflower that tracks the sun on vertical poles no roof problems ✨
Interesting project. I don’t think a couple of concrete slabs would be enough to secure the solar sails around our way but I guess you benefit from shelter in the mountains. Good luck with the build!
Speaking as a surveyor, that is a good question. Fixing to concrete structures should not be a problem but timber-framed roof structures might have serious long-term problems as they are not designed to resist much lift. Conversely, weighting with high levels of concrete blocks (loose?) could cause loading problems.
I hope the manufacturer of the mounts delivered the right numbers. We do not have a lot of heavy winds here. The load of the whole build is equivalent to 11cm snow.
I was considering a solar system for my home and going through your decision making process was helpful. The war is what got me thinking about reducing my grid consumption (I live in the US). Looking forward to your next update.
Good to see solar panels in colder countries!! I first installed D-I-Y solar panels off-grid (first 500w->1kW->1.5kW along with 1x12V 150Ah lead-acid batteries with separate wirings in a span of 7-8 years). Later I installed a new grid-tie batteryless system of 3kW (subsidized by government) and got bi-directional electricity meter at home. I converted the old 1.5kW system also to grid-tie (just converted configuration to series these to series and installed a grid-tie inverter. Power generation in 3kw reaches max 2.4kW and in the 1.5kW system to about 1.2kW in the afternoon. Units vise, i get about 15-16units / day from the 3kw system and about 5-6 units/day from the smaller 1.5kW system, ie a total about 20-22kW/day. But clouds reduce output to about 50%. With grid-tie system if there is a power cut, we get ZERO output. But it is relatively maintenance free except that we have to clean it water regularly for bird droppings and dust (we live in an "economically" growing country, in other words digging earth & mountains and moving material elsewhere.) Rains also clean them but productivity reduces significanly, like i get about 12-13units in the bigger system and about 4-5 units in the smaller one per day. during rains or fog almost NO OUTPUT is there. All the panels are NORTH-SOUTH monocrystalline (because my vendor was not interested in latest technology). Inverters are mostly rebranded chinese ones to circumvent regulatory requirements. The have "wifi cloud" monitoring. actually one even has an espressiff chip:)
Hi, Andreas, have you thought of installing "solar tracker" to lift pairs of panels by the middlepoint in the morning, evening and winter? This can be a long bolt, nut and a reducted motor from car windows or wipers (its dc). Wish you luck in this project, had same idea 8 years ago, late then it was 13 000 - 18000€ per 10 kW setup with true sine inverter and no batteries, no work costs included. Fortunately i cancelled project that time, since then i give more stakes to a wind power over sun-for-electricity in my regionl
No, I did not consider this method because it is no longer needed. The panels are so cheap that you cannot afford such a mechanical construction. Just imagine how strong this construction would have to be. The wind load of an elevated 2 square meter panel is huge. This is why we put them close to the floor.
Sehr schön zusammengestellt! Wir haben bei uns auch gerade eine Mini-Anlage auf dem Gartenhäuschendach gebaut um unsere E-Bikes zu laden. Das hat wunderbar geklappt und war erstaunlich kostengünstig (ca. 1200 CHF). Amortisationsdauer... *räusper*... 26 Jahre :D. Aber das ist halt so bei kleinen Anlagen. Dafür hat's sehr viel Spass gemacht - und ein bisschen "Lust auf mehr".
I wish we had more DIY options here in Australia. Things are a little too regulated here and DIY is not really possible. We would just have to switch south to north on this side of the world :). We do have an electricity "retailer" who sells at wholesale rates here, which means the wholesale rate is the same for feed in and usage. But the cost of panel installation is still a killer ....... Thanks for a great video. This is really interesting stuff
We had the same discussion with our neighbours but we have a big problem Lots of high buildings besides us… we would have 1000m^2 of possible area but very shadowy because of the buildings
then just get as much 2nd hand panels You can. There is loads of used panels on the market for very cheap, usually very large ones as seldom anyone wants panels not offering 100% output which are big - most home owners want most efficient setup to utilse the most of the surface and most solar farm owners need max power output panels per square meter of land they pay taxes for. You will get huge peak power monster system, but then it is nothing to worry about - panels will never produce more voltage than their open circuit voltage. Figuring out if to connect the panels in series and what target voltage will be optimal will be bit of Frankenstein experiment job, still given you live in a shade, you need not to worry for overheating the panels and you can actually put mineral wool behind them and use them as extra wall and elements insulation, creating pretty, durable fascade. Hint - use eastern europe "small ads" sites, as it is where electrotrash from western europe ends at. German, Polish, Czech , etc, places where one gets used tires and old cars.
well today (after watching Andres' video here)... had the idea that you can install a few inexpensive PTZ motorized security cameras. and then program a stop motion timelapse, to create a video monitoring all of the shadows / shading during the course of a year. then the next year you can more easily watch and review the shortened video, and draw out on the screen all of those areas getting shaded, and see how much shading occurs etc. then you will probably need bypass optimizers for each panel, and like Andreas says: it typically requires method of easy access to get to them to replace them once they fail, due to high working temperatures
@@dreamcat4 i was already thinking something like this with the cameras! but i need some nice neighbors that allow installing the cheapest tapo tp link camera and so on but we will not forget this project since my inhouse neighbors already asked me if i can do that and i said i would like to but also we should consider the shadows .. and we need some place for the electronics..
I installed my solar 3 months ago. Diy ofcource. Im waiting for the inverter 2 months now and the seller cancel the order due the Lock downs in China. I used the bare panels for heating. Heating elements didn't care about dc. Thermostats and switches did though. I can't wait for more details.
I would choose a steeper installation angle ~ 70..80 degrees to the horizon. Energy is abundant in summer and scarce in winter. Kilovats are more needed in winter, and you don’t need to remove the snow - it will fall off on its own.
This is the second possibility I mentioned. Here we only have a few percentage of our electricity produced by solar. So any solar energy will help. If we only have to run a few fossile power plants in winter, I think we still could reach our CO2 goals. For now we run them also in summer... But maybe I will add a few steep panels at a different place on our home to improve the winter harvest.
A while ago I got the idea of using a online UPS with a lot of old lead batteries as storage, the idea was to modify the charging in a way that it keeps the batteries a bit above their minimum voltage and solar does the other part. Maybe even with a little module that fits between the battery terminals. Then the input of the ups should be switched according to the charging state of those batteries. It's still relatively low in my "to do list", but could be a relatively cheap solution since you can get a old online ups relatively cheap, as well as old lead batteries. Surely it would be relatively big and heavy but I also don't plan to move solar Batteries. I already have a dedicated UPS for testing that theory.
Very interesting. I built my own solar system with an Enphase micro invertor per panel; 25 years warrantee. Each invertor provides 230V AC. These are all wired in parallel and connected to the net. So no high dc voltages (fire risk) and no central invertor.
My DC voltage is also only around 400V (similar to 400V 3 phase AC). As I said: I did not want to have 18 inverters in the heat on my roof. That is why I decided for an ordinary inverter in the (cool) basement. For smaller arrangements these micro inverters are a good solution, I am sure. And I wanted a battery.
Looking forward to further experiences, particularly the real-life performance.
For that we have to wait a little. I expect that in summer I will produce too much energy for our home. I am interested in how long we can survive without buying electricity. My guess is around 9 months during the year.
@@AndreasSpiess I guess because of fixed cost from your electricity supplier even when you don't need their electricity you will still pay some $.
@@wizdarek yes, but in the summer the amount sold may offset that
@@nirodper depends on the provider if they have a system in place to allow consumers to sell power back to their grid
@@AndreasSpiess I have a similar goal but mine is still years away.
I've helped a couple of family members choose their commercially installed systems, both running for ~12 years. A lot has changed in that time in terms of costs, vendors, technology, and regulation. But relevant to this channel's audience, there is still opportunity for the maker/DIY community to help with *monitoring* of residential solar.
Both homes had their (non-Chinese) string inverters fail outside their warranty periods. These failures made the importance of monitoring more significant. Most inverters have serial output for monitoring, (modbus is common, but with vendor-specific data formats). But at least in the US customers tend to be tied to whatever 3rd-party monitoring system their installer uses, often with an over-priced hardware component locked to one cloud monitoring company. One of our big solar installers even went out of business leaving thousands of customers without access to their own monitoring data for a couple of years!
Given that monitoring could easily be done by the ESP32s we play with here every day, feeding a grafana server in the cloud, it's shocking how expensive it is for solar customers using limited turn-key monitoring solutions. I look forward to seeing what @Andreas Spiess does for monitoring...
I for sure will have a look into the monitoring aspect because I assume we have to change our habits because currently, electricity during night is cheaper than during the day.
@@AndreasSpiess if your electricity meter has a P1 bus you can use DSMR reader project, nice graphs etc.
@@AndreasSpiess Interesting to know that bit about electricity being cheaper at night in Switzerland. In Karachi, Pakistan, 6 pm to 10 pm are considered peak hours costing more per kWh, with 10 pm to 6pm (20 hours) being off-peak hours. And different cities have different peak hour ranges.
My SolarMax inverter is still running fine after more that 10 years, but I didn't notice when an animal damaged the wires to the solar panels and I lost half a year of solar production. I now added an ESP8266 as a watchdog. The inverter has a fault indicator relay (german "störmeldekontakt") that I used to check if the system is running.
This was an excellent DIY episode and very timely as well. I'm really looking forward to the continuation of this project. You may influence many viewers worldwide to engage in their neighborhood and take on such green projects. Cheers.
This was the main reason for that video. Most of my viewers like DIY and this can be a fun project. Particularly with neighbors.
Great project :). I just finished my Offgrid system w/ 7.6Kwc+8Kva inverter+15Kwh LFPO battery... everything in DIY. I bought a chinese hybrid inverter (voltronic) and prismatic LFPO cells coupled with a JKBMS. Be aware with the roof installation option... to clean them (from snow in winter, pollen in spring), you need an easy access to the roof... Personally, I installed as sun shading over twp pergolas (2 strings with 2 orientations). Super easy maintenance in this case. You are right the panel price is less than a 1/4 of the project. Tools, metal struture, cables, electrical protection system, etc... costs also a lot. Anyway my system costs me less than 10 Keuros (pergolas incluted). I am fully offgrid 90% of the time. I built a PCB "PVbrain" (open hardware/open software) to monitor both BMS and inverter plus some control of some relays for example to control an Automatic Transfert switch (to go Offgrid or to the grid). The ESP32 is running ESPhome for an HA integration and controls.
cool approach.
IMO starting with off grid system is most educational, esp one gets aware of how much energy one actually needs - in the annual balance span.
Thing to consider is that Many modern devices can run fine on DC.
There are loads of 12V and 24V off the shelf devices tailored for truck drivers, boat owners and RV dwellers, often very power efficient - dishwashers, fridges, lightbulbs, laptop chargers, cellphone chargers, lighs - just a visit to a camper supplies store is a good eye opener.
12V and 24V DC is easy to handle for amateurs, not a big risk of electric shock, though a bit of fire safety as most people will skip RCD on 24V and wires and connectors need to be beefy.
But then thanks to USA most devices like microwaves , fridges, phone chargers etc. can run fine on wide range of DC - from 110V to 310V.
Another solution are microinverters, easing creation of modular PV systems using quite thin wires to create small AC PV augmented grid - microinverters can be installed close to the panels.
This is good option if one needs to have AC grid because of some high load device, like water pump in a well, but installing panels close to load and having extra shed to house inverters etc is not really desired.
This way one only needs thick wires and smalm fuse box close to the pump, then wire up thin wires coming from small panel/microinverter circuits , each protected with small fuse.
Last but not least some devices need not to be powered non stop. F.e. fridge can be powered only when there is plenty of sun, most modern fridges can hold the frost for over 24h.
Same goes for big loads like the water pump submerged in a well - if equipped with soft start and industrial inverter/motor controler , it can start up slowly and operate at half the power when there is no sun and it runs on backup, like batteries. This should be enough to make dishwasher or washing machine run in the evening, while during the day one can enjoy full water pressure for pressure washer or watering the garden with a hose.
Anyway, keep trying and greetings!
yeah making on pergolas does sound like a really good option, especially for home DIY and having a means to do maintenance on panels more easily without them being all the way up on the roof where they are more difficult or expensive to access
it also seems to me (and this is also applicable / can work in an off grid system), that it makes some sense to be dumping excess surplus energy into a home hot water heat pump, then using the house hot water. so a heat pump is maybe at least another 5k. however the final piece of the puzzle i am missing is how to water cool the solar panels and any optimizers mounted under the panels, and then cycle that warmed water into a such heat pump system. that would then prolong the working lifetime of the panel and optimizers, reduce failures, and reclaim some of the residual wasted heat from the back of the panels --> again into an upgraded version the house hot water system.
so that part i have not researched fully yet - it just seems like if you were to go to all the trouble of installing water cooling pipes under the solar panels, then there should also be some mechanism for house cooling / hvac too during hot summertime months. for example to have multiple switchable water circuits. with one circuit going to the panels, and another circuit going into the ground (or loft attic space radiator, or other such types of heat exchanger etc.). And those extra complexity / cost / performance trade offs ends up become more difficult to 'see the best way(s)'. especially for a specific property, when different from each other, (and in different locations / different seasonal climate / etc. etc.)
@@dreamcat4 Using precious electricity for heating water or heat pump is bad idea. If You need hot water, use thermal solar heaters - glass vacuum tubes with heat pipes inside heating water tank above. totally passive system, works even in the northern climate, 90% efficient and because pipes are round - no need for solar tracking, and most of all - cheap and does not use any precious metals or electronics.
With 90% efficiency you get almost 1KW per square meter. Getting 10KW is easy. Also easy to scale - either connect the new system in parallel if you need more hot water or in serial if for some reason you need hotter water. Heat pipes do not work above 70C, so system regulates temp. passively.
If you have excess electricity from solar system, think how to use it for profit - sell it to neighbors if law allows that, get bitcoin miner, or get some small machine to produce something usefull - f.e. briquettes from biomas, aerogel making machine , cryogenic air separator to make liquid nitrogen (there are miniature ones avail) , small furnace to melt precious metals to inglots etc. etc. - just visit closest technical university and ask students for ideas, you will get plenty.
Ad cooling of solar panels - air cooling is very good . But You do not need to rock open doors, there are hybrid solar panels available too. You can use this low grade heat to preheat water entering household, then things like washing machines use less power to heat it up , or you can use it for pre-heating floor heating.
thanks @@piotrcurious1131 for these tips, i am indeed very interested in finding out more about these other options, and in combination together with each other
What's your github repo for the project? I am thinking of designing something similar based on a micro inverters
You went in the right direction by not caring about pay-back.
Cheers from a fellow Swiss citizen.
:-)
Great, I'm in the process myself with a DIY solar setup. Looking forward to follow along.
Great! I am glad I get some help here. Particularly because of all the small details (a lot of them non-electrical). In the end someone has to give the ok and if I do not know the details, I might have to change something...
You have done an excellent job of breaking down not only the costs, but the logic behind them. I feel like I finally understand how these things work!
Glad the video was helpful. I also had to learn about the cost elements.
I had just spoken with a solar installer about a proposal for a system less than an hour ago. Now your video is here in TH-cam, wonderful. However, Google/TH-cam/Alphabet seems to know me very well!
Cool. Go for it! It is a valuable adventure.
Thanks for the interesting video. I'm interested is the newest aspects in this technology as I didn't follow too much in the recent years.
I am from Germany, where we had huge subsidies for solar systems. So I bought in 2009 a 30kWp system for my house (old farm house, roof orientation to the south) - a great commercial decision- perhaps the best so far. Before the investment, I made a big Excel sheet calculating the income versa the cost for the bank loan, calculated maintenance, write offs etc. over 20 years - a small commercial balance for each of the years even considering the estimated payable income tax. This calculation clearly showed that there is money laying on the floor and I just have to bend my back and pick it up and get things organized. For estimating how much energy I can harvest over the year, I used the same tool Andreas is showing in his video. I then went on Google Earth and checked the roofs my closer neighbors and put their data in my Excel sheet and presented the results to them. The idea was the government is paying huge subsidies, and I wanted not to be the only guy to benefit from it and then being later told, I make money out of their pockets. I also decided to go for German made solar components because of the subsidies paid by the government and the money needs to go back into the country and not somewhere far east. I could convince couple of neighbours to follow my step and get a solar system. Well, the result today is that my system is making over 10% more energy than predicted compared to a new - not aged - system. In my Excel Sheet I also calculated the ageing with 0.5% per year and there the average gain is today +14% compared to the prediction. Need to say that I am living very south at the foots of the alps. So far I did not have to replace an inverter, which I was considering to do every 10 years. Maintenance is zero. Only in the beginning I had an issue with martens (Marder) eating the cables like in cars.
My statistics clearly shows that the gain of energy was in the first years closer to the estimation tool and the 'over' gain in energy increased in the recent years dramatically - scary - we have to do something !!! My decision to go for a solar system was clearly commercial with the benefit of being a green decision. Today I see it differently.
Today my plan is to put the old solar panels on the north side of the roof and install on the south the best efficient new panels in order to harvest more power. I can expect to get with new panels 60-65% more energy from the south and still getting from the north 70% of what I get in the south. With all that energy I want to run a heat pump to replace most of my heating oil consumption for the big house and to go for a electric driven car.
One last comment on the inverter. I have got a old designer 12V rope lamp in one of my rooms with a toroidal transformer. There you can hear the inverter hammering the energy into the grid, when the sun is shining. 'Perhaps an idea of measuring the energy gain by the noise 😉 '... Besides that EMI is no issue.
Andreas' Video is very interesting for me, as I will have to deal with shadow generating obstacles like chimneys and satellite antenna and other things. And I wonder what else he is putting on the table to consider. So I learned already a bit in this episode. Thanks a lot.
Sorry for the length of the comment, but I also want to motivate people to go for this technology.
As to shadows, one option is not to put a panel where there will be shadows, another one is that some newer systems use a cable from each panel instead of putting them in series, so they're run in parallel. Of course this increases the cost of cabling (not just in length but gauge) but it makes shadows a non issue.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It deserves the space. You are already a "solar veteran"!
Just about buying Chinese or German: My panels are German but I fear that the most important parts, the modules, come from China. Also all the parts in European inverters would come from there. Long time ago, western countries decided that we want the Chinese to improve our standard of living with their cheap labor.
There is still a lot of "Swiss" and "European" cost inside my system because our wages are extremely high.
@@AndreasSpiess Andreas, may be my comment sounds a bit too nationalistic - sorry. I have no issues with China. But those days there was a nice manufacturing of solar modules in East Germany pushed by the government - at least that's what they told. My are Solarworld - now bankrupt '🤣'...😭, thanks to the wise German politics. My inverters are SMA. But you surely are right, that there are certain quantities of components in, coming from Asia. That's ok. But I am getting 43 CT net per kWh going into the grid - until end of 2029- , and somebody has to pay for that. So I thought, I shouldn't be too greedy and try to save the last EUR on the investment. AND I am also a shareholder in our 'Bürgersolar' - a community arrangement of our village on the roof of our local school. There they bought cheapest modules from a local guy selling modules from Far East ... , guess which one performs better...😉 , so I am happy.
Today, where the subsidies are much less, I would not be so strict on buying an European product, but those modules with the best efficiency - let's say one from the top in the ranking. Luckily there are options, even from a Swiss company 😉. What really counts is, the more kWh we produce, the better for all - especially these days.
When I look around and see still many roofs with south orientation - big roofs - in my neighborhood, I am always thinking 'oh man you missed something'. And today we need almost an obligation to get these roofs covered. And the amazing thing is, that even a roof with north orientation shall be giving 65-70% of the preferred south orientation.
Of course these solar systems are not a real decoration of a house, especially when it is traditional and kind of historical - my is from the 17th century ... , but how to give such a building a future? In my eyes no choice. And for sure better than putting it on fields.
So, I just can encourage people to go for solar systems. The technology works great without a hazel.
Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge! Honest information with less bias is hard to get.
Thank you for your nice words!
We installed a 13kwp Enphase microinverter system, as I could test they are ham/amateur friendly.
System has been operating 2 full years with minimal RF noise or any ofher issues. No battery, as we had backup generator.
If I was dealing with Net metering energy supplier, I would likely install a battery to minimize loss of selling to energy supplier versus storing and using at night.
Our energy provider does not purchase excess produced energy! They track our excess production sent to grid and our consumption from grid. Months where exported > imported from grid, the excess kWhs are carried to next month. Months exported < imported, we are billed for difference of imported-exported.
You are lucky because you have an excellent system! Much better than the one here. I still hope we will get back to such a simple system.
And thanks for mentioning that the Enphase inverters are quiet. My neighbor will probably use a few of them for another project.
Fun project! I have to say its always wonderful when neighbors can talk things through and work together. It seems you are good at this; I wish to have neighbors like you!
Indeed, this important. We are now on the roof and so far no problems (other than technical).
I made the decision 7 years ago, is still one of my top investments ! I have 4 kW peak, just covers my year consumption. In Belgium, we still can have the old electricity meter which turns backwards. In 2025, this will change, and a digital meter with separate counting will be installed.
I think these meters were a very good idea to support home-owners to invest. And very easy to understand...
I think you will not regret it. And as an owner of such a system for several years, I can say that what you say sounds very reasonable.
Thank you for your confirmation! So I hope it will work.
Wow, great video! It's interesting how economics have changed over the decade, and I enjoyed seeing your details. I'm in California where we sometimes have "net metering"meaning the sale price and purchase price in and out of the grid are the same. But it's changing and there was a proposal to charge a tax based on the kWP installed. So the more you install, the more you pay! We also have high permitting fees. I was surprised you do as well. Some years ago I read an analysis by American national labs on costs in Germany vs the US. Germany was about half the cost. Part was because the cost of sales and marketing was 4x higher in the US, and also the German installers could do it in less than half the time. Part of this was scale-- the incentives in Germany at the time were a bit crazy, but they did succeed in building the industry. I wonder what your Swiss sales and marketing costs for commercial installers are included in the price. Here in California I think its still high, and permitting costs are high.
It's amazing that panel costs are1/7 the total price-- as you mention, just add more.
A friend of mine had solar installed last year-- she wanted the Tesla Powerwall battery, even though it does not make economic sense (but now we have power shutoffs if there is high wind and chance of starting a fire). I think my friend's price and yours seem similar, but the battery was pretty expensive, and extra $14K.
It seems that each country is very different. This is why I did not focus on the absolute cost. Sales margins here are easily 30% of the end price and our wages are high. I think everybody has to do the calculations where he or she lives.
Batteries came down in price and I was astonished when I saw the Huawei offer. But now they start to get more expensive because of a high demand.
@@AndreasSpiess I am starting to plan my own system since I live in sunny Florida USA and my electricity supplier offers rebates for going solar. Another great resource is Will Prowse whose TH-cam channel can be found here. th-cam.com/users/WillProwse
We went the DIY route here. Putting the structure together, doing the wiring and setting up the inverter were the easy part. Getting the panels up the roof was the real pain. We went for 550Wp panels, and they weigh 28kg. That was the point I thought having an installer was a good idea, those guys come with cranes or elevators.
Second DIY we did was my parents, and there we went for much smaller 280Wp panels. Though not a lot lighter, those were a lot easier to carry up to the roof.
I agree! This is why we have some sort of "crane". I am too old to carry such panels 3 stories up ;-)
Thank You for the good presentation of the basic economical facts. If your warm water boilers are run by electricity, making them to be swiched on, when panels create electricity, is an improvement to total economy. At the roof there should be reserved space for a person cleaning the panels; dust and snow.
We have distance heating with wood. So I did not look into this matter. And we should have enough space to clean the panels from time-to time.
Great video Andreas! Very cool! :)
Thank you!
Can't wait for your 2nd 3rd and more installments. We have a 7.3k system with a 10kh battery. Ours cost $25k in Australia. Very happy with it. Also helping friends install an off-grid system with solar and wind.
Cool! After watching "Australia" a few times (one of the favorite films of my wife) I always thought you have enough sun!
@@AndreasSpiess in Tasmania we do get lots of wind and also cloudy days. Very cool with some snow.
Thanks, Andreas, great video! I find Your YT channel yesterday and enjoy it now. Solar Power enthusiast from Estonia.
Welcome aboard the channel!
I just finished my selfmade 4KWP system. I had the luck to find a company that provided planning, material and help and as well did the final checks. I can only recommend to go this way as the most limiting factor in the moment is the workload of the companys. Material is possible to get. And it is so satisfying to produce your own power.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
At last someone who is not trying to gain profit from others and tells the truth including the good and not so good. Thank you. ATB
You are welcome!
It would be great to see a whole series from start to end. It's always interesting to see how solar power systems are different around the world
I plan a second video after the current is flowing… and maybe one a year after.
Great video, thank you!
Due to the roof we have, we have an east/west installation with the 12 cells lying almost flat (7°) and 9 + 9 are mounted east / west at 43°. The outcome is, that the production is somewhat better distributed over the whole day instead of having a rather sharp peak at noon. In addition I created a little dashboard out of an ePaper display and esp-home all mounted in a picture frame. This helps the entire household to optimize the "Eigenverbrauch" by switching on the laundry machine or the dishwasher, when the panel indicates a surplus production. So far everybody is very committed to save energy costs and CO2 emissions ;-)
Some less important knowledge, as blackouts are still very seldom in middle Europe: My inverter has a significantly reduced life time when it has to operate in island mode. My guess is that this mode puts more stress on the capacitors.
We also have a tablet on the coffee machine in the kitchen. And an indicator "washing possible" when there is more than 2kW excess power ;-)
Fascinating project, Andreas. Please make more videos as things progress.
Coming soon...
Cool that you have started your PV project and rely on our mounting system Dome 6 ☀Thank you for this detailed and practical video! Grüße in die Schweiz!
Nach dem Ausrichten war es einfach die Panels zu montieren. Nun hoffen wir dass sie auch beim nächsten Sturm oben bleiben (siehe andere Kommentare) …
Can't wait to see you building your system. I built a 5kw DiY solar system and it was a lot of fun and learning
I will create a video as soon as the first current flows...
Without the expert support this would not be practical for most people. I guess you are lucky where you live, We had a Solaredge 6KWp + Tesla 13.5KWh (Powerwall II) installed professionally 5 years ago. The installation took 1/2 a day and has been working flawlessly since. Plus we have a 25 year warranty on Solar and 10 years on battery which is something you don't mention. The cost back then was about $15000 USD. Also had some split heat pumps and electric hot water system to use excess PV (additional costs), I guess an electric vehicle would also be good for this. Interesting stuff. Looking forward to see how it goes for you.
The warranties are similar to yours (25 and 10 years). We have distant heating where they use wood, and I cannot park my car in front of my home. So I will deliver the excess energy to the grid...
Thanks a lot for another master class Andreas. Of course we, and your drone, needs more. Waiting for next episode...
Thank you for the feedback. I hope I can present the next episode when the first current flows...
An excellent, informative video, and a very important undertaking. Let‘s strive to make projects like this easy and affordable for everyone. I have great respect for the co-op and for similar organizations that are working to do just that. And not to forget, the mountainous Swiss landscapes in the background, when Andreas takes his videos outside, are absolutely lovely. No wonder that most of us imagine Switzerland as a world of fantasy.
I agree that this is a good idea. But here we only have hills. What we call "mountains" are much higher ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess vom flachen Norden aus gesehen sieht das hinter dem Haus wie Everest aus. 🗻
Wishing you that the installation goes smoothly and that the thing will perform as expected.
I hope, too. But as always I expect some problems…
@@AndreasSpiess with regards to electronics for home improvement, it's always a risk to take leadership in any projects that involve other home owners, because sometimes things don't go as hoped and it is difficult to explain to people with little or no expertise in the field why it isn't your fault that it went that way. Must be extra tough when one is a TH-cam celebrity 🙂
yes we definitely want a second vdeo. And after a period a follow up video comparing expected output / economics with actual.
Thank you. This is what I plan to do. The next one should air in a few weeks if everything goes according the plan.
Yes I look forward to seeing your second video on this project. You always present very well. Good luck..
Thank you!
Thanks for the analysis Andreas. I've been playing with solar charged, battery powered Raspberry Pi sensors for my astronomy hobby in my back garden. I've convinced the wife that our next house will have enough solar to provide power to the house, charge a large battery array in an out building, and provide some power back to the grid when the batteries are full. Our circumstance here in the US is very different from western Europe but I very much respect the desire to become independent of power providers.
Regarding destruction of the roof: In my country, as far as I know, they never drill into flat roofs to tie down solar panel installations. Its scary (because of leaks) and also when the wind gets really bad it can rip open your roof (esp since the large surface area of panels can act as sails). Hence why they put them "loose" on the roof with some weight. If the wind gets really bad they just fly away but leaves your roof (possibly) intact.
Interesting! The first points are the same here. The last one (flying away) should not happen because so far we never had extreme weather like in other countries.
Ich warte auf das große Glück, auch so einen jungen Enthusiasten mit Fachkenntnis und Erfahrung in meiner Nähe zu finden ..
Ich war etwas aktiver beim Suchen ;-) Mit diesem Video hoffe ich dass vielleicht ein paar junge Leute diese Idee kopieren.
Hi, here is the guy with spanish accent. Of course we are interested in a second video, and in the third and so on...
Saludos desde España, amigo!
Noted! Thank you.
As soon as one starts talking about solar power, you hit regulatory challenges. I am not sure we will make the needed turn around this way. Here in Germany, I wanted to run a Balkonkraftwerk. There are sone you just plug and play. However, my energy provider dislikes it, and told me to install a special socket to plugin the system, installed by a professional company. Now, I get why not everyone should fiddle around with high voltage, but the so created extra costs consume the advantage almost completely even if the energy prices are expected to rise ...
I hope that our current energy situation in Europe will help to stop these ridiculous discussions. Here we must use a proper inverter and the electrical installation must be done anyway by an electrician. The rest seems to be a well-established process.
The special plug is necessary because they fear that you will be electrocuted by the unprotected contacts of an ordinary 240-volt plug.
@@AndreasSpiess Yes, but at the same time the inverters for such smaller solar installations are taking care of not delivering power when not synced with your power grid. To me it sounds, like some regulatory department needs to establish rules just to make itself important. But hey, it is as it is.
I saw some advertisement about that Balkonkraftwerk. Can you just install it without a permit or the go ahead from the electricity company?
@@AndreasSpiess Isn't the solution obvious? Have a simple license, similar to a driver's license. I image two tests: a practical test and a theoretical test. The practical test might take around 15 minutes; the theoretical test might take around 30 minutes. The cost to take both tests might be around €100.
I suppose currently licensed engineers and electricians would be exempt from the test.
In my experience, and from what I have observed, when governments get into the business of running schools, they usually do a terrible job. By contrast, when governments provide licenses for various professions, they often do a very good job. After all, it's not very difficult to devise tests to judge competence; whereas, by contrast, it's generally deceptively difficult to properly educate students.
@@Luke-san You have to register your Balkonkraftwerk, only. At least, as long as you follow the reulations.
Great subject as we're looking into doing the same thing but in a tropical country.
Then you will have much more energy, I assume. But maybe more issues with humidity.
@@AndreasSpiess cooling is an issue here as efficiency of solar panels go down at higher temperatures, humidity could cause problems if you don't use a weatherproof construction to mount the panels.
Thank you for the excellent video and glory to Ukraine. I am in the process of building my first solar project. I went back and forth on what to use for a long time and ended up with a solar edge system. Dear in Colorado I have to meet rapid shutdown requirements at the panel level. Figuring out how to navigate that with an off-grid system became two complex for my first project and that's how I ended up with the solar edge system. I was also able to find it for a very reasonable price with some used components. Had I watched your video first I may not have gone with the solar edge system and I definitely would have gone with a larger system. Thanks for all your insights and I look forward to seeing your system completed.
Other requirements lead to different solutions. If you are happy with what you have everything is ok. I just heard of problems with EMI...
Super interesting thank you! As I expected DIY is cheaper, but also more fun.
Yes, you are right!
Did an installation with my son last year, accompanied with an association . Good experience. Did not install a Backup Battery, would do it now but inverter is not compatible.
So similar to here.
Fear of incompatibility is why I decided on a combined inverter/battery system.
"kWp" can also mean "kilowatt Panel". Same usage though: manufacturer's marketing number, bears some resemblance to reality..
An interesting project. Also worth noting, E+W facing often provides more power in the morning and evening, S facing (for you over the equator types) provides more peak power at the middle of the day, but less morning and evenings. Temperature matters too, hot panels produce less kW.
2mx1m and 25kg is huge / unwieldy. Do not drop them! (My last string of panels was 310W and 1.6mx1m and 19kg each)
Finally, a bit late for you, but in addition to hybrid/battery inverters often limiting you to one phase from battery, many also have a smaller kW rating for running off battery vs the grid. As I found out. I can run my "essential loads" panel off the inverter; but if the power does go down, the "inrush" switching from grid to battery tends to trip the overcurrent and the house shuts down anyway. Sad.duc. Solution is to have bought a bigger inverter in the first place :D
Yes,these panels are big! Concerning switchover: I will get this feature later. It is currently sold out. And afaik they interrupt electricity for a moment.
brother, that is THE PROJECT of the decade! Please provide more info about the battery: what is the expectation? (how much energy they can store? etc. how many hours do you expect per 24h to be on own energy etc.) LOVE IT!
The battery has 10kWh. It should be easy to survive a night. The problem is in winter when we cannot charge it fully during the day...
One thing I have realised is that a significant proportion of our power consumption comes from heating water. If I was planning a system I would consider breaking out the water heater from the power generation. I haven't run the numbers to see if the double-conversion (sunlight to electricity and then to heat) creates significant loss of efficiency. But that also gives an option for placing a solar water heater in an optimal direction, coupled to the time of day when hot water is needed most. Although that varies from summer to winter when the heating comes on.
Which also raises the question of types of heating - heat pumps? There's more to this than meets the eye!
Since we have distance heating with wood, I did not look at this topic.
Great video Andreas, indeed there is a lot of savings when you do some work on your own. And - keep in mind - most electronic components (inverter, batteries, heat pumps, power walls,etc) can these days talk to each other, what I used to have a raspberry pi in the "middle" of the installation to not only monitor the various devices but to also prioritise the consumption of the various users. In that regard we not always have the heat pump on first priority when we leave for the week-end but prefer to load the electric cars etc. And, most important, when the batteries are full and still having an overproduction, we start a heater in the water boiler to make the hot water free of charge. All this got realised - and here we are back to Andreas channel - with a raspberry pi and node red!
The battery and the inverter should communicate for the moment. The rest might come in the future. Because we have distance heating with wood and no air conditioning our electricity consumption is mainly flat (my lab and some other stuff) plus the kitchen and the washer (high current) which currently are started manually. I am sure I will see some opportunities for node-red in the future ;-)
Yes! Really curious about how it turns out. The K2 mounting system is an interesting idea.
A next video will come soon...
Yes, I would like to see the progress of the solar project. Love you videos, they are full of information and inspiration.
Coming soon!
Excellent, and thorough presentation, as usual, Andreas. I look forward to the next installment; both of your system, & your TH-cam channel.
For those who are planning/have solar, but cannot afford the battery expense (only grid-tied), I would suggest they look at hot water diverters. These devices, which are wired into the solar electrical system-hence require authorised installation, by an electrician, redirect usable solar power, to the hot water cylinder's (if electrical) element, when it calls for heat. It would be far preferable to have your solar generation going towards your own energy usage, as opposed to putting it back into the national grid, for a pittance.
As HW heating makes up a significant proportion, of any residential power bill, you are effectively using free energy, as opposed to paying normal tariff rates, from your supplier. I estimated, that in New Zealand, one could reach payback, even if a low power user, in approximately 2-3 years. In my talks, with clients (I am not in the industry), who have solar, none have even heard of these devices. IMO, they would be the most essential solar add-on, for any grid-tied system.
You may want to consider doing a video on these great unheralded devices. I would look forward to that. Keep up the great work.
I understand your point and my MBA heart would agree. But as a trained EE i cannot support to waste the most valuable energy to create hot water only because our politicians cannot create a fair price. I hope now that with the current situation of high energy prices and the fear at least in Europe that we will have a cold winter, people start to understand how valuable electricity is for our daily life.
Maybe the situation in NZ is different and you have plenty of electricity. Then of course your proposal is also ok for me.
In some countries the power sell situation has become so bad that the energy suppliers charge you to back-feed into the grid. That's why I think everyone should go off-grid.
A zero export inverter solves that problem. It should be possible to make one with wired sensors based on a STM32, going wireless would likely need a FPGA. I'm working on turning a Prius inverter (about $100) into such a zero export inverter, also with a VFD output for thermal storage HVAC.
Maybe this situation will change and you will be able to sell your energy in the future because we will not have enough energy with e-mobility and no more gas power plants.
Congrats Andreas, my e-wende 25kWp installation runs since almost a month, I very happy, todya I got 40kWh of my roof. I now orderd an AC coupled Victron ESS, which is also a very interessting project. Cheers from Bern, Ritschy
Cool to have such a big system. Unfortunately, my house is too small for that…
This was a great introduction to the topic of setting up a solar system.Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Dude! Don't leave us hanging. Or more plainly, yes please, I'd love to see the second video on the installation. :-)
One is planned as soon as the first current flows ;-)
thanks for the fantastic content (I originally came to your channel regarding antennas and VNAs). keep it coming Andreas!
This is a quite diverse channel (like the owner ;-)
Just in time for my own project! Many thanks for additional things to be considered.
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent comparison! Here in Sri Lanka where I live, we're going through a huge economic crisis. As a result we're having 4+ hours of power cuts daily and even more in some days. I kinda saw this coming and installed an off-grid solar system beforehand and I'm proud to say that I'm relatively unaffected by the power cuts. My system includes 1.3 kW of peak power solar array ( bought some used polycrytalline and monocrystalline panels for cheap) , Sako Isun 3kW off-grid inverter and CATL 120Ah 24V LiFePo4 battery pack ( 8 cells ). However my LiFePo4 batteries are still coming from China, so I'm using a couple of Lead Acid Car batteries for the time being. I did everything DIY so didn't cost anything for for work. Going to install 2 more similar systems on 2 of my relatives homes in coming weeks :)
Having such a system seems to be very important in your country. Here we do not have a lot of power outages (yet)
Hi Andreas all the best with your project from Michael in the UK, looking forward to the next video
It should air after the first current flows…
I wish I'd be one of your neighbors. I'd partake on that project.
(sadly, my neighborhood is ...not particulary fund of DIY-projects; damn what could we save with such a project)
Keep us up to date with the project! (maybe your videos will do the trick? ;)
You are right, I have good neighbors! And we already are on the roof and cook and eat together. Also good for the community...
Looking forward to the timelapse of the installation. And the third 'one year later' video showing the actual performance.
I will try to document the different work and create a video when the first current flows from the roof...
I look forward to see the EMI performance of your installed system. I am a radioamateur always looking for weak signals and thinking of “optimizers” in the roof and switching inverters gives me nightmares. That’s why I procrastinate on this ;)
and yet we almost all use a PC that incorporates multiple switched mode DC/DC converters with some as big as a 1.2V 120 Amps regulator to provide the power for the CPU.
The high power switching inverters that are being used in solar installations have a much higher EMI compatibility designed in (because of strict specifications for connecting high currents to the power grid) than all the other stuff with switched mode converters we have. Each LED light-bulb, phone charger, power-bank and any type of portable equipment has switched mode converters ;-)
I hope @rumblfmp is right. We had some issues with optimizers on the roof (as mentioned in the video). The supplier had to modify each of them to be compliant :-(
I have no electronics on the roof, only DC. But I will check it, of course.
Excellent video Andreas.
I have an older installation on a flat roof, it has already paid for itself. But a recent installation at the neighbours (same area) already has twice as much power, it is the old fashioned south facing setup. With an east/west setup I could double the number of panels and modern panels are almost twice the peak power. Together with the current high inflation it is better to spend the money on a new install (and recycle the old panels/inverter for the shed) than keep it in the bank.
Good point! Here, inflation still is moderate. But the signs are different...
I had planned on a similar DIY approach next year, since most "installers" with pv packages to sell do it so poorly (even hazardous, studies have shown) in this hot market. They don't plan to stay in the business and have little or no aftermarket support here in Sweden. I also think there's value to have the receipts and warranties and not risk having a third party to deal with, if you are someone who can read and understand some technical documentation and the domain lingo.
Haven't really been crossed my mind to look up any non profit organization around this, and also haven't been thinking about my neighbours and how we might be a few to have the exact same ideas and plans.. thanks for those aspects and also the clear budget work/main areas to account for. Modern string inverters in combination with 3 or 6 (half cut) bypass diodes per panel really do make most of the arguments for individual panel optimizers or microinverters a bad decision. Extreme shading issues perhaps. Panels malfunctioning or spotting worse performance numbers than manufacturer's specifications/warranties would be good to have though..
Indeed, it is a lot of fun working with my neighbors!
And spotting a bad performance should not be too complicated, I think because the whole string will suffer and the loss should be detectable. Finding the bad panel then can be done with a thermal camera...
i work with this and i personally would diy but then again i mount integrated and non integrated panels every day :) one thing to think about is to not go the shortest way with the + and - from the panels because that will give you strange radio disturbances.
Good point. We wired the minus in parallel to the plus going from panel to panel (it needed much longer minus cables). Without the help of an experienced person, I would not have known it!
Just like you this background idea of solar power has jumped up in priority. I too like the idea of DIY (although commercial prices I have here in Ireland for a 10kw system are around €15k, so quite a bit cheaper than Switzerland it seems…or maybe they have not told me the whole story yet), so will be very interested in how you get on.
If I understand right though, you do have an organisation who will help with the install?
Signing off the electrical installation for connection to the grid is my one concern for DIY. Not sure yet how that would work.
But another great video and I look forward to more on this!
Ralph
1. Fortunately, salaries are also high here ;-) Which is part of the problem of the high labor prices, of course.
2. Yes, we have the help of a project manager from the "Energiewende Genossenschaft". He does all the planning, Paperwork, and instructs us on the roof.
3. A professional examiner must certify our installation after completion. And we are only allowed to work on the DC side. The AC side has to be done by a professional electrician.
Looking forward to seeing your project’s progress. We have solar and batteries and are very happy with the results. We no longer have any net electrical usage. And in the event of a power outage, we can retain power for most of the day during winter and indefinitely during Spring though Fall.
I hope to get to a similar situation…
Please continue with a second video. Thanks a lot! Also good that you name the inteference word. Often forgotten.
Will do!
Good on you going solar. I started my solar journey in June 2020 at the height of the pandemic right after a one week power outage. I went 100% DIY but my arrays are ground mounted. I get about 11KW from both arrays and have just expanded my battery LifeP04 capacity to 968AH at 48V or ~48KWH which should run my house for 3 days without sun with margin. I will be adding another 4KW of panels to my observatory roof in early summer to allow me to run the airconditioners during the day and charge batteries. I wanted to add a 1.5KW wind turbine (for use in crappy weather and windy sunless days) but my town wouldn't let me do that - I suspect at the behest of the electricity supplier that I no longer pay outrageous electricity bills to. The US FTC is investigating Asian companies for dumping solar panels in the US so now buying them from reputable sources has now become harder and ultimately more expensive, thankfully I bought the 4KW additional panels just before the FTC stepped in. I also did not go grid tied as I didn't want to deal with that bureaucratic nightmare and the electricity company benefiting from the spread at which they buy and sell.
In our climate and as a married man it would not be possible to go off-grid. It would be too much of a compromise for my wife ;-)
Your installation is much bigger than mine, of course. My panels are from Germany, but I assume the inside still is Chinese...
Nice to see a bigger project. I started "just for fun" with a smaler Solar DIY project for my bee-house. But may be I will continue in phase II to solarize my house where I live. I hope I can get some learnings from you, as we have similar conditions from the region and gouverment. Regards Frape
I already learned a lot. Since May, my plant alone produced 1.5MWh...
Great, I'll be following along. I've also been looking at PV but have concluded that it will be difficult to save sufficient money to justify the cost .
I do not do it for the money. Just for piece of mind. And curiosity...
Instead of selling the power back to the grid, consider bit mining the power. During the winter you could divert the heat back to the house. Right now, the price of a used bit miner is low. The other use is the electric water heater using low quality dc (with no inverter loss) from the panels. Prior and post direct sun, the panels could directly be used for the resistive heater element in the water heater.
You forgot to account for the winter snow covering the panels at 10 degrees vice 39 degrees. Do you think you can utilize the direct short rating for melting the snow on the panels if you shunt short the output in the snow covered panels in the winter???
As an engineer I refuse to use electricity to produce heat. It is far too valuable.
Concerning snow: I have no experience. We will see next winter.
Andreas,
Du schaffst es immer wieder mich mit Themen zu locken. Ich bin auf dieses Projekt von Dir sehr gespannt und möchte sehr gerne im nächsten Jahr eine DIY-Lösung im hohen Norden von Deutschland umsetzen.
Viel Erfolg bei diesem Projekt und gaaaaaaanz viel Spaß dabei.
Ich freue mich auf die weiteren Videos.
Cheers
Antonio
Vielen Dank für dein Feedback. Das nächste Video sollte demnächst kommen...
Outstandig!
Looking for the next vídeo of this odyssey!!
I hope it will not become an odyssey ;-)
The drawback which I see is that solar panel and battery technology is changing very fast. Panel efficiency has dramatically improved during the last 5 years. So too has battery technology. So, anything that has a payoff of 10 years or more will likely be obsolete by the time it is paid off. Still, you are correct in that the cost of grid electricity is bound to keep going up.
With the current rises in price of electricity I for sure do not need to wait 10 years for the payback. Spot prices seem to be 10x higher than two years ago and everybody orders e-cars...
This video definately needs continuation.
Also, most important here is real payback time which is not easy to calculate precisely, but approximation can help.
I assume a payback of about 6-10 years. But we will see...
@@AndreasSpiess 6-10 sounds good. Also, means that energy prices are much higher in Switzerland. We are at about 16-18c/kwh (the prices will probably rise due to situation) and we are still struggling to convince people to go for solar that will pay for itself in 10yrs.
@@janisvaskevics93 I also assume prices will steeply increase. My colleagues order e-cars because of the high gas prices...
Interesting project explained very clearly. Thank you.
Other considerations:
Roof condition and type? Work or just walking might shorten life and/or necessitate early replacement (e.g., membrane).
Are unusual, rare high winds possible? Liability? Even those block weights might all go flying in a tornado.
As you describe there are risks involved. The climate below the panels will change a lot (cooler and more humid) which will reduce the strain on the membranes. But maybe we destroy something. Wind will not be a problem because we got the ballast data from the manufacturer. And the overall weight is comparable to 11cm of snow...
Looking forward to your second video on roof solar. Like you, I am interested in securing solar capability to address brownouts in winter and summer.
Coming soon...
I live completely off-grid with a DIY system that is much smaller than your planned system. Still, I struggle with RFI on the HF bands from both my charge controller and my inverter. Some mix 31 toroids has helped but commercial RFI filters are next on the list.
Indeed, RFI seems to be everywhere these days. Manufacturing ferrites seems to be a good business ;-)
Great project, hope everything goes smoothly.
Me too;-)
Thank you for the great inspiration 👍 in the present time of broken supply chains, exploding material costs and inflation I'm in doubt to decide for an own system. Maybe it will all regulate back later. Greetings from sunny south 🇩🇪
Fortunately, all parts are already waiting in our basements :-)
Excellent. Finally no more excuses for me to not going solar. I would be interested in future video to perhaps hear about what to do if one is concerned about hacking into inverter and setting house or battery on fire. Perhaps not connecting to internet (not sure if electrical company would accept that) or choosing one brand over the other. I believe US government does not support installation of Huawei network equipment. Not sure about inverters and their vulnerability.
I do not fear hacking because my system is connected to the grid. So the voltage in my house will always be defined by the grid. And I chose LiFePo4 because they do not burn. The chance I will be killed on a zebra crossing is much higher ;-)
I have to admit I only came here because I totally misinterpreted "DIY Solar System" and wanted to find out how you would justify such insane ambition! However having found you are not actually claiming God-like DIY powers and your ambitions are more modest, this turns out to be one of the most useful TH-cam videos I've ever watched! I have a house with an east-west pitched roof, but with large nearly flat areas over dormer windows (ironically, although in South West England, the house is built on the pattern of a "Swiss" chalet). Extensive shadowing from trees and lack of roof area pitched south led me to think solar would be impractical, but this video has given me cause to re-think! Thank you!
You are welcome! I thought that many of my viewers like DIY and currently a lot of people think about solar...
most permits will require all components including Lifepo4 batteries to be UL listed... much more expensive than non UL listed stuff
That is why I chose a commercial unit.
very pretty land... beautiful trees and lots of sun shine 😉 you can mount the solar-panels to mimic a sunflower that tracks the sun on vertical poles no roof problems ✨
Thank you!
This "sunflower" principle is no more used because of cheap panels and expensive maintenance...
@@AndreasSpiess thanks interesting 🙂
Very informative and interesting. Looking forward to seeing the installation and it's operation.
Coming soon!
Como siempre un excelente y didáctico video. Por supuesto que me agradaría un segundo vídeo sobre este proyecto
The next video is already online...
Interesting project. I don’t think a couple of concrete slabs would be enough to secure the solar sails around our way but I guess you benefit from shelter in the mountains. Good luck with the build!
Speaking as a surveyor, that is a good question. Fixing to concrete structures should not be a problem but timber-framed roof structures might have serious long-term problems as they are not designed to resist much lift. Conversely, weighting with high levels of concrete blocks (loose?) could cause loading problems.
I hope the manufacturer of the mounts delivered the right numbers. We do not have a lot of heavy winds here. The load of the whole build is equivalent to 11cm snow.
Looking forward to seeing the follow up videos.
Coming soon!
I was considering a solar system for my home and going through your decision making process was helpful. The war is what got me thinking about reducing my grid consumption (I live in the US). Looking forward to your next update.
I assume a lot of people were triggered by the recent events. Maybe one good outcome of this bad situation.
Good to see solar panels in colder countries!! I first installed D-I-Y solar panels off-grid (first 500w->1kW->1.5kW along with 1x12V 150Ah lead-acid batteries with separate wirings in a span of 7-8 years). Later I installed a new grid-tie batteryless system of 3kW (subsidized by government) and got bi-directional electricity meter at home. I converted the old 1.5kW system also to grid-tie (just converted configuration to series these to series and installed a grid-tie inverter. Power generation in 3kw reaches max 2.4kW and in the 1.5kW system to about 1.2kW in the afternoon. Units vise, i get about 15-16units / day from the 3kw system and about 5-6 units/day from the smaller 1.5kW system, ie a total about 20-22kW/day.
But clouds reduce output to about 50%. With grid-tie system if there is a power cut, we get ZERO output. But it is relatively maintenance free except that we have to clean it water regularly for bird droppings and dust (we live in an "economically" growing country, in other words digging earth & mountains and moving material elsewhere.) Rains also clean them but productivity reduces significanly, like i get about 12-13units in the bigger system and about 4-5 units in the smaller one per day. during rains or fog almost NO OUTPUT is there. All the panels are NORTH-SOUTH monocrystalline (because my vendor was not interested in latest technology).
Inverters are mostly rebranded chinese ones to circumvent regulatory requirements. The have "wifi cloud" monitoring. actually one even has an espressiff chip:)
Thank you for the info. You are already a solar veteran!
Not sure about the solar vetaran but sure i am a veteran viewer of this channel.. th-cam.com/video/2R-2Qubq5IQ/w-d-xo.html
Hi, Andreas, have you thought of installing "solar tracker" to lift pairs of panels by the middlepoint in the morning, evening and winter? This can be a long bolt, nut and a reducted motor from car windows or wipers (its dc). Wish you luck in this project, had same idea 8 years ago, late then it was 13 000 - 18000€ per 10 kW setup with true sine inverter and no batteries, no work costs included. Fortunately i cancelled project that time, since then i give more stakes to a wind power over sun-for-electricity in my regionl
th-cam.com/video/3Uq6307xa8U/w-d-xo.html
No, I did not consider this method because it is no longer needed. The panels are so cheap that you cannot afford such a mechanical construction. Just imagine how strong this construction would have to be. The wind load of an elevated 2 square meter panel is huge. This is why we put them close to the floor.
Of course, it will be interesting to see how your solar project progresses, here my vote for the next video. ;-)
Coming after the summer break!
@@AndreasSpiess Hope you a nice summer break!
Sehr schön zusammengestellt! Wir haben bei uns auch gerade eine Mini-Anlage auf dem Gartenhäuschendach gebaut um unsere E-Bikes zu laden. Das hat wunderbar geklappt und war erstaunlich kostengünstig (ca. 1200 CHF). Amortisationsdauer... *räusper*... 26 Jahre :D. Aber das ist halt so bei kleinen Anlagen. Dafür hat's sehr viel Spass gemacht - und ein bisschen "Lust auf mehr".
Super! Ich vergleiche Solaranlagen mit Tattoos. Wenn man eins hat will man noch ein zweites. Zumindest scheint es so für einen Tattoolosen…
Muy interesante. Seguiremos pendientes de nuevas entregas. Gracias
De nada
I wish we had more DIY options here in Australia. Things are a little too regulated here and DIY is not really possible.
We would just have to switch south to north on this side of the world :). We do have an electricity "retailer" who sells at wholesale rates here, which means the wholesale rate is the same for feed in and usage. But the cost of panel installation is still a killer .......
Thanks for a great video. This is really interesting stuff
Glad you like the video. The next will follow as soon as the first current flows...
We had the same discussion with our neighbours but we have a big problem
Lots of high buildings besides us… we would have 1000m^2 of possible area but very shadowy because of the buildings
then just get as much 2nd hand panels You can. There is loads of used panels on the market for very cheap, usually very large ones as seldom anyone wants panels not offering 100% output which are big - most home owners want most efficient setup to utilse the most of the surface and most solar farm owners need max power output panels per square meter of land they pay taxes for.
You will get huge peak power monster system, but then it is nothing to worry about - panels will never produce more voltage than their open circuit voltage.
Figuring out if to connect the panels in series and what target voltage will be optimal will be bit of Frankenstein experiment job, still given you live in a shade, you need not to worry for overheating the panels and you can actually put mineral wool behind them and use them as extra wall and elements insulation, creating pretty, durable fascade.
Hint - use eastern europe "small ads" sites, as it is where electrotrash from western europe ends at. German, Polish, Czech , etc, places where one gets used tires and old cars.
well today (after watching Andres' video here)... had the idea that you can install a few inexpensive PTZ motorized security cameras. and then program a stop motion timelapse, to create a video monitoring all of the shadows / shading during the course of a year. then the next year you can more easily watch and review the shortened video, and draw out on the screen all of those areas getting shaded, and see how much shading occurs etc.
then you will probably need bypass optimizers for each panel, and like Andreas says: it typically requires method of easy access to get to them to replace them once they fail, due to high working temperatures
@@dreamcat4 i was already thinking something like this with the cameras! but i need some nice neighbors that allow installing the cheapest tapo tp link camera and so on but we will not forget this project since my inhouse neighbors already asked me if i can do that and i said i would like to but also we should consider the shadows .. and we need some place for the electronics..
@@dreamcat4 it would be awesome if the whole neighborhood would get it that we should use the unused potential also making money in the longterm
I am happy with nice neighbors and no shadow. Both seem to be necessary. We will see how much energy we will produce in the end...
I installed my solar 3 months ago. Diy ofcource. Im waiting for the inverter 2 months now and the seller cancel the order due the Lock downs in China. I used the bare panels for heating. Heating elements didn't care about dc. Thermostats and switches did though. I can't wait for more details.
We have everything here in the basement. So we were lucky...
I would choose a steeper installation angle ~ 70..80 degrees to the horizon. Energy is abundant in summer and scarce in winter. Kilovats are more needed in winter, and you don’t need to remove the snow - it will fall off on its own.
But that is mostly saving on the number of panels then. It is not so helpful to over the roof that way as there will be a lot of shadow.
This is the second possibility I mentioned. Here we only have a few percentage of our electricity produced by solar. So any solar energy will help. If we only have to run a few fossile power plants in winter, I think we still could reach our CO2 goals. For now we run them also in summer...
But maybe I will add a few steep panels at a different place on our home to improve the winter harvest.
Wow, nice project! I am amazed by the commercial offer, our install was only 7k euro. Total peak is 6kW I think with a 5kW inverter
Prices as well as salaries tend to be high here...
A while ago I got the idea of using a online UPS with a lot of old lead batteries as storage, the idea was to modify the charging in a way that it keeps the batteries a bit above their minimum voltage and solar does the other part. Maybe even with a little module that fits between the battery terminals. Then the input of the ups should be switched according to the charging state of those batteries.
It's still relatively low in my "to do list", but could be a relatively cheap solution since you can get a old online ups relatively cheap, as well as old lead batteries. Surely it would be relatively big and heavy but I also don't plan to move solar Batteries. I already have a dedicated UPS for testing that theory.
Interesting project!
@@AndreasSpiess i'll tell you if I ever made a proof of concept to test my idea. But it's honestly not the highest on my list.
Very interesting. I built my own solar system with an Enphase micro invertor per panel; 25 years warrantee. Each invertor provides 230V AC. These are all wired in parallel and connected to the net. So no high dc voltages (fire risk) and no central invertor.
My DC voltage is also only around 400V (similar to 400V 3 phase AC).
As I said: I did not want to have 18 inverters in the heat on my roof. That is why I decided for an ordinary inverter in the (cool) basement. For smaller arrangements these micro inverters are a good solution, I am sure.
And I wanted a battery.