Interesting exactly what I need , I want to make my own back up box , do you know what the signal/ voltage is given from the original backup box to the inverter to fire it in back up operation?
I assume it works without internet. Then, you have to do the updates with your Smartphone. And you can connect it with a wired Modbus. I showed why I bougt it in earlier videos.
@@35manning An increasing number of inverters do just that. In the US, most notable are SMA and MPP, both of which have options for daytime backup without batteries.
I had a solar system put in about 8 years ago, but because I was in the middle of a construction project (and had young kids at the time), I didn't take the opportunity to learn enough about the various tradeoffs. If I had your diligence and taken your structured approach to learning, I would have avoided a lot of mistakes! What has helped me learn was the installation of a much smaller DC-only system with some panels I got cheaply later - nothing quite like building it to learn. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!
Hi, many thanks for your inspiring project. It must be noted that, at least in Switzerland, any modification to a house wiring requires the neutral regime to be of TN-S type due to differentiel protection requirements (FI or DDR). Older houses (like mine) were often connected using TN-C (1 wire for both neutral and protective earth PE). No modification to the wiring is allowed unless it is changed to TN-S, so there is no way to setup an Off-Grid backup System. This can be quite costly. So my Huawei SUN2000 will still stop when Off-grid, until we find an economical solution (maybe just setup part of the wiring to TN-S, while having the rest of the house still on TNC, and getting no current when OFF-Grid).
Thank you for your information. Unfortunately, I do not understand your problem ( I am not "fluid" in house installations). This is why I trusted my electrician and hope, he got it right. There are also FI fuses in the backup box, BTW.
The Backup Box manual from Huawei explicitly forbids connecting to TN-C grid types. However, if the household is wired as TN-C-S then it is perfectly fine. You can't switch to TN-S unless the power company does it for the whole neighborhood supplied from the same source in your area, which would be extremely expensive. The cheaper option would be to change your TN-C system to TN-C-S system where you split the source Neutral(PE) wire into two at the power distribution box at your house. Of course this must be in correspondence with your country's electrical regulations. Another way is to convert to a TT system where you install separate earthing system for your house getting a completely independent protective earthing while you use the source Neutral(PE) only as Neutral. This again must be advised with your local electrical regulations.
Hi Andreas. I did quite similar things with a transfer switch with the exception that I use a 1000VA USV with external 24V batteries as Voltage source and I cleaned up the phases such that all I want to power ( light, freezers, IT and heating (just 35W for control and pumps) is supplied on one phase. This makes me sure that no dish washer, washing machine is powered in off grid mode thet may lead to overload of the backup power supply. I hacked the APC USV such that it self start when supplying 24 V. This needs just some sequential button presses which I realized with an Attiny controller. So everything is now fully automatical and work without manual interventions.
Cool! So your system is similar to a emergency generator, just without using fuel! Here, we wanted to power the whole home, not only the critical systems with solar because in late February/March when they predict potential power outages, the sun should already produce enough energy for everything (except cooking). So we should be able to live a "normal" live.
Very clever solution. Thanks to Andreas. If somebody needs an motor driven generator, consider also a "tractor power axel driven generator". Old tractors are very realiable motors, and generators can be transported at the hook-up levers at the back of the tractor.
In some country side districts there are several old tractors in barns or open field with a minimal cover blancet. They use their new tractors with 200 hp + 1,7 m front&back tyres also for school trips daily (15 years is enough to drive these monsters).
If you have some loads on a UPS (like several outlets fed by a 1000W UPS), fed by some larger batteries that give you some time, you could just feed those batteries with DC from any source, tractor or just an engine or a car, then let the UPS switch back in with the grid and put up the tractor at your leisure. A little automation is required if you don't plan to stay home all the time.
Hallo Andreas. Ich wurde durch einen gemeinsamen Viewer auf Dich aufmerksam gemacht. Unser Swiss-Alpöhienglisch hat offenbar parallelen 😀 Wowww, dein Kanal ist ja gigantisch! Falls Du mal eine tolle Idee hast, wie man ein Schweizer Taschenmesser mit deinen Skills aufmotzen/umbauen/ergänzen/abändern/elektrifizieren oder was auch immer könnte, lass es mich wissen. Wäre spannend mal eine Zusammenarbeit mit Dir zu machen. Liebi Grüessli vom Bodäsee dä Felix
Hallo Felix, ich kannte deinen Kanal noch nicht (nun hast du aber einen Subscriber mehr ;-) .Ich habe ja früher immer mein Taschenmesser für die Mailbags verwendet und da hätten wir einen Ansatzpunkt. Allerdings ist diese Videokategorie nicht mehr so beliebt und deshalb habe ich schon lange keines mehr gemacht. Meine Zuschauer haben sich beklagt, dass mein Messer Stumpf ist...
Hallo Andreas. Deine Antwort hat mich sehr gefreut. Vielleicht gibt's ja mal ein Video mit einem micro GPS Trekker ... oder irgendwas in Richtung Funk.... oder Photovoltaik auf der Griffschale... die springende Idee ist mir bislang noch nicht gekommen. Lass es mich Wissen, wenn Du eine tolle Idee hast. Wenn ich mal was baue in mit Elektronik, werde ich Dich mal anfragen ob das spannend sein könnte für Dich. Liebe Grüsse Felix
Hi Andreas, be aware with these chinese ATS they are not reliable versus time. I already cooked two of them with less than 100 commutations (and with small loads < 150W)....
Hi Andreas, thinking from a DFMEA-perspective: If you ever have an "oh-sh*t" moment (electrocution/fire/etc.) and need to kill power to the house, won't the inverter be a try-hard and override your "main power off" action? How can you easily kill main power in your meter-box , in such a situation?
In most houses (as is the case in his) you have a RCCB/RCBO switch in the circuit. I assume that his failover solution is before said switch, so if he needs to cut the power to the whole house, he could use that switch. Maybe the transfer switch also has a manual override, too.
Depending on the purpose, it might be wise to add a battery pack to close the gap between grid switching. Power generators have a small startup time and a small period of time to produce a stable output. Larger installations and critical infrastructure are not pleased with a delay of 1,5s. The batterypack kicks in first and as soon as the power generator produces a stable output the grid switches to the generator. Very reliable, very expensive too.
You may use a VFD (variable frequency drive) to solve the 3 phase problem. Many of them can be supplied by 1 phase + neutral and output 3 phases + neutral. You can also set the VFD to various parameters. This is usually done to power motors.
If the power goes out, most of your neighbors will turn into zombies and will be attracted to light! * You need to make sure that roll shutters on the windows automatically close and that the light can't be switched on if they are open. * according to rumors on the internet and confirmed by trustworthy tabloids. ;)
I think we will solve one problem after the other ;-) But you might be right. Maybe they get nicer if they can charge their gadgets and use my HAM radio station?
@@AndreasSpiess Offering them access to your ham radio at a time when almost all local sources of QRM are without power is really nice. But please make sure they are licensed. If they aren't, ask them to get licensed. ;-) Apropos QRM: Have you checked how quiet your new toys are?
As a UK resident, I envy your 3-phase supply. We only get one phase in domestic installations. But I suppose that implementing your solution would be much easier.
for around 10.000 euros I build a system with 13kwh of batteries 6kw of solar and 2 inverters. A cheap grid tied inverter from a brand called solax and a victron multiplus 2 5000va. The system power the home with out grid and if i don't have engough sun it switch to the grid. for the money the system is quite cheap. I build everything my self so that lower the cost significantly.
Hi Andreas, I love you solution and like to test your creativity!. We have a home with 3 x 10k 3phase inverters with each 15kw batteries and 3 backupboxes (66pv panels). The house is powered by 3 x 400V+N (32amp) and inside the house evrything is cabled on 3 times 230v , we needed the 400v for heating pumps and the Electric car. How would you propose to power the house and combine the 3 backup boxes mono phase 230v and create 1) 3 phase 230v or even 2) 3 phases 400V+N Any solution is good (UPS, transformator or recabeling) Thanks for your creativity Alex
I do not do consulting (too dangerous). I only show my findings in my videos. But I am sure, with the understanding of what I did, you will find the right way for your situation that is legal and working. Your situation is basically the same as mine. The only thing is that I had to do a trick because I only had one phase to power 3 phases.
Extremely bad idea! The ATS you are using is very low quality. I have a few on fire and stopped fitting them. It's much better to keep Huawei's original idea without overcomplicating the installation. It's just a matter of redesigning your board and separating the important phase 1 loads
I believe two important things should be noted for this solution: 1. In this way you connect the whole house load to the backup system. This means the house load should not exceed more than 5kw for LUNA2000(10-15kwH) or 2.5kW for LUNA2000(5kwH). Shorting the three phases means that you support the whole house load and some households may exceed the 5kW(2.5kW) limit which would cause the battery short circuit breaker to activate. Most three phase stoves can operate with a single phase, excluding the oven. This means having only 1-3 burners turned on (or maybe a boiler) will get you close to the 5kW(2.5kW) limit. 2. The L1 terminal in the backup box and source A terminal of the ATS switch should be connected to the same phase. Otherwise in cases where a single phase drops, due to a short circuit break from the sourcing power distribution box for the household, you may get unpredictable behaviors. One scenario is where an inverter goes into off-grid mode but the ATS switch does not transfer to backup power, leaving the household powered with the remaining phases from grid. Another scenario is where the inverter enters alarm mode due to missing a phase for proper operation in grid-tied mode, but the missing phase is not the one that triggers switchover to off-grid mode, this way the ATS switch may completely shut down power to the house although you can power the house with the remaining phases.
Hello , Are the ports for the neutral conductor on terminals X1 (backup load-port 2). X2 (grid-port 4) and X3 (Inverter-port 8) at Backup box-B1 at the same potential? From which port is the neutral conductor connected to the switch (which you suggest) for the load? (X1 port 2 or X2 port 4). The network is of the TT type. Can you draw a three-pole diagram? Thank you Miletic from Serbia
I do not have more information than shown in the video. Look at the drawing at 6:29 that shows the whole setup. Backup power is the single-phase output of the inverter.
Very interesting. Ideally I would have liked to see what happens when grid comes back. Also, I would like you to have identified the "two breakers in seroes" that the electricity suppliers requires - presume one is the changeover switch and the other is part of the Backup Box.
Nameless ghost is correct. And the switch back is without effects. The transfer switch takes a few milliseconds to automatically switch from backup to the grid. You hardly see it.
Hey, I really like your videos. They helped me getting more advanced in my hobby. I would like to know if you have a community discord channel where I can get help If Google cannot help me or where I can talk with other members from your community😊 If not, maybie you know a discord channel like that? Thank you really much 😃
Hi Andrea, maybe I missed it but did you consider a Hybrid inverter. You could check the Growatt systems. I use a SPF5000ES, only 1phase but you have 3P options aswell. The only drawback this system does not netmetering (export to grid) but new hybrid systems with this option exist. All switching from grid to inverter is automatic, the inverter is disconected from grid, If you use correctly sized batteries for storing sunpower 'you are good to go'. just my 5cents. Thank you for your great videos! You inspire! 73
My inverter probably is called „hybrid“ ( I do not know the exact definition). It uses solar, manages the battery, and provides 3phase power to my home.
Hi Andreas 1) Where is the Huawei smart power sensor located in the setup? On the grid side of the Automatic Transfer switch? 2) Is the any circuit breakers or relays on the grid side of the ATS? Like a EHFI relay? 3) I assume the grid meter is on the grid side of the ATS? 4) Since the SUN2000 gets its power from the house grid, which in your case is powered by the backup box when off grid, can that be the reason it still powers the inverter allowing the solar panels to provide power for the house grid as well charging the Lunar2000 battery? Because Huawei states only the L1 inverter can run in pure off grid mode, not the M1 you have (and I). The M1 supposedly only allows the battery to provide backup power… For me, if the SUN2000 does not charge battery and run house on solar when off grid, backup box is not much use. So I am really curious how you made it do it!!! Best regards from Denmark
The Smart meter is on the grid side. There is no need for it if off-grid. As said, my inverter charges the battery in off-grid (Huawei info is probably outdated). The rest of your questions should be answered in the video.
As I am not really an electrician I have some issues in understanding the ATS-wiring (to be able to discuss with my electrician). My understanding: Source A (upper area): Phases 1-3 are not connected, just phase and neutral on the green connector from Grid. Source B (lower area, upper connector): The phase from the backup-box is connected to phase 1 and also to 2 and 3, right? The green connector is connected to phase and neutral from the backup box. The lower connector on the lower area is the output to the load.
The transfer switch looks very "chinese". I have a manual transfer switch, and after a few switching cycles, it started to not always switch all phases... Issues with DC circuit breakers as well... If i would build my system again, i would not again use chinese stuff for electrics. It is ok for cheap microcontrollers, if two out of twenty don't work. But if your UPS fails, while the grid would work... By the way, i like your solution. Why more expensive or complicated, if it fits your needs?
Good to know! We will see if it holds up. Maybe (hopefully) it will not be often used . And if it breaks, I still can order a better one. The damage in this situation is not too big. What I could do is to test the 3phase one that was delivered wrongly in a bench scenario.
Hello Andreas, thanks for your videos. I have noticed one possible problem with connecting 1 phase to 3 phases and it is possible overloading of neutral (blue) wire on appliance connected to 3 phase to star. If phases of AC are shifted by 120 degree, as from grid, than in balanced load there is no current on blue wire and in worst unbalanced case there is same current as maximum on each phase wire. Therefore blue wire has normally same (or smaller) diameter as phase wires. If all three phases are conneted to one though, there is no shift, and on blue wire current will be 3x phase current. As this is how my water heater is connected (3 phase to star) i have been thinking about current on neutral wire an it is freshly in my mind. As you do not use electricity for heating, this is probably not an issue for you, but it is important in general, as this could lead to serious overheating of blue wire if used for longer time. I hope this is not already mentioned in other comment, but there are too many.
In principle, you are right. However, my inverter only delivers 5kW. So there is no problem with that. Plus to save (precious) energy when the grid is down, I do not use such high-power applications.
Unfortunately it wouldn't work on my house. I don't have a neutral wire. Each phase in my house delivers 130volt. When connecting a device in between two phases, it will get 230v. But if all phases are joined together then obviously that doesn't work anymore and my devices won't work. It would be like connecting both connections of a device to L1 in a normal house.
What would happen if, for example, phase 1 is down (which would activate the transfer switch) but phases 2 and 3 are still active in the grid? It is not that uncommon for only a single phase to fail.
I have worked a bit with UPSs in hosting servers and datacenters and connecting a UPS to a UPS (daisy chained) is a hard no-no as it can cause critical failures, and seeing that the solar inverter and battery is on a sense working as a UPS here; One threat is that the current draw can cause the upstream UPS to go into an overload condition or distort the output voltage waveform. When this occurs, it can prompt the UPS to detect a power fluctuation, revert to battery power, and continually cycle between the battery and normal operation. Plugging one UPS into another can also spark inverter compatibility issues, where the unit closest to the load doesn’t recognize the other UPS’s power as sufficient. This compels both UPSs go to battery, defeating the intent. Daisy-chaining can also force UPS controllers to work against each other, leading to harmonic distortion on power lines. So... you might want to make sure that this is not that case in your scenario.
Thank you for your input! I am not sure how much your scenarios apply to my case. My small UPS for the computer and the network only consumes about 300W ( constant load). The PV inverter can supply 3kW in backup operation. So I hope that the influence of the small UPS on the inverter is not big enough to create problems. And the small UPS does (hopefully) not care where it gets the energy from. What do you think?
This video does not mention, is the Smart Meter (DTSU666-H) also required for this solution to work? In the wiring diagrams I am seeing this as an integral part and also in your video when looking at the fuse box it is present.
I have the same Huawei sun2000 system with 10 kw battery as you have, I asked my installer to add an additional backup box so I could use the system when the grid was down. He has never been back to install it and I'm beginning to think it's because he knows it's only capable of running a single power lead and I need it to power the whole house. Maybe all we need in addition to the backup box is this transfer switch ? Just out of interest Huawei state the system should be able to run in off-grid mode without a backup box i.e if it's installed in a remote location without mains power, therefore is it not possible during a power cut to simply switch off the mains supply and switch the battery to DC ? will this not supply the power to the inverter and run the house? I have asked this question on various forums but never got an answer.
I would not buy a Huawei system for off grid (it will only provide one phase energy). There are much better solutions for that (e.g. Victron). The capabilities of the SUN2000 are well documented and I showed in a previous video why they cannot do 3 phase backup power (as many other simple inverters).
Very interesting, usefull and entertaining. What else? Btw, at 5:38 you metioned that "old motors" won't work in a star configuration because of the rotating field. However, by useing the Steinmetz circuit (adding capacitor to create fase momentum) it is possible. Of course with the downside of losing a lot of power/torque from the motor. I had to come up with this solution several times (air compressor, no 3 phases available). It is however a emercency solution that I would not recommend.
@Philip: As you know, I forgot all these things during the years because I hardly touch more than 12 volt systems. But good to know in an emergency situation.
@@AndreasSpiess I'm very fond of 12V systems too and I'm replacing 230V circuits where I can with 12V (or 24V). This goes very well for everything related to lights. Makes it handy for battery backup and legislation is much easier.
@@PhG1961 My radio room (with the exception of the PC) works on 12V, too. But the lab is on different levels... 12V is really very simple: Just connect a LiFePo battery and it works...
Are the stove and oven really connected in delta? It doesn't seem the case here in Australia where 3-phase supply is used to balance the loads by connecting different elements in star... I was also thinking it would be delta until I read some appliance installation destructions. Seems like they don't want to deal with the higher voltage.
I don't know about the Helvetic confederation but here in EU (I mean Greece) the domestic circuit connected to the grid has to be certified by a technician. This implies that every single devices such as the transfer switch has to be CE compliant which i doupt it is when you buy it from AlliExpress (I may be wrong, please double check by yourself). Siemens sells one but it's above 1000€ here. The Hager model is 813€. The Chinese one is only 36€ 🤔Something tells me that the price tag is not just due to the CE sticker.
I do not know, but the professional Electrician installed it. In this application, it is not very critical. Nothing dangerous happens if it does not switch and if it connects the grid to backup while the grid is on (which is a very strange failure mode because it switches between the grid and backup), we get a dead short across two phases (because they are connected) and will trigger the fuses.
@@AndreasSpiessI didn't say that it was dangerous, I said I have no idea why the price tag is so high and maybe it is for other reasons than safety. Maybe reliability? Maybe it's the EU specifications that makes it expensive to produce? Lack of mass production? I don't really know.
@@srfrg9707 I also do not know. But in my case, I hope it will never be used (or just a few times a year). I assume there are other use cases. 1000 Euro for a simple two-way switch seems a lot to me anyway...
CE is self certifying....the companies grade themselves, it is the most nothing of all standards. A kid could set up a lemonade stand, write CE on the side, and it would probably pass...you know, since the kid would be the one deciding if it did or not.
@@srfrg9707 On Amazon user review I found an interesting hint about the potential issues with this switch. It is not (always) switching as fast as promised and no guarantee that all phases and neutral switch synchronously. This could cause an issue if the neutral switches later and is not connected for few milliseconds while the mains are already connected. This is mainly an issue when switching back to he grid with 3 phases, as in such case there could be >230V if the sources on the the three phases are quite unbalanced load.
Thanks again and Congrats! Paralleling all 3 Phases could overload the neutral line of loads in star configuration. But during power outage, cooking will be done by a camping gas cooker. Your solution is very unexpensive. The battery is way less expensive than my BYD HVS. And your Backup-box is quite fast. My Fronius Gen24 supports 3 phase backup. But it needs an expensive backup box und the transfer is slower than yours (German rules, I think). Otherwise my small Victron backup solution for the heating system has UPS speed.
The Victrons seem to be very fast. A colleague has a 3 phase design and is happy. When I ordered our inverter I did not think that I ever will think of a backup solution. For normal operation, my inverter/battery is extremely cheap ( and is LiFePo4 and high voltage). All deciding factors. one year ago...
@@AndreasSpiess The backup idea was the starting point for me in 2021 after reading the report of the Bundesrechnungshof anticipating the issues and after the elections. But I hesitated too long because I wanted to avoid 3000 EUR for a new main distribution box in my >50 year old house (crazy German rules). And I wanted to have a 3 phase Victron system. But here, there is no company installing this. So, I ordered in March 2022 a "standard system". Then, all was delayed until autumn. In autumn our government decided 0% VAT for PV beginning from 2023. End of january the system was installed but I have to wait until the meter is replaced by a two directional one..... Long journey
@@klassichd10 Indeed. We were lucky, and from the order (24.2.22) to the first energy (26.5.22) was fast. The counter came in June. But I still do not have a valid invoice...
if i had access to my home wiring from 800km away using something like "VPN for wires" i would have followed this route for remote troubleshoot. Besides when my home was built they put the main inverter where carrying wires is aesthetically undesirable. May be in future i might consider replacing my home inverter with a "smart" solar inverter with grid export feature. Until then i watch solar generation/export in my android phone using data stored in china. Also since the himalayan chilly winds have subsided a little, which sucked away all human heat, i can also clean bird droppings from the solar panels and show off to my neighbours. By the way, after i installed the solar panels about 8-9 years ago, almost all the roofs in my neighbourhood have solar panels 😞
You mention an interesting fact: Countries like yours are much more advanced in Solar than Switzerland. In my village, only 25% of the buildings have solar. But I assume this will change over the next years if I believe all the discussions with my friends.
If everyone will have solar connected to grid it will not work!! because no one will be paying for electricity. In addition, right now we are importing silicon wafers, just assembling them here. But after the events of 2019-20 general trend of electronics is to move out of china. So maybe we will have silicon manufactured from sand right in our country. Another major problem is the to have battery. I am not sure if we have lithium mines in our country. Our mainstay is lead-acid with strong smell enough to intoxicate some people without requirement of any alcohol. They are now talking about hydrogen trains and all those kind of big things but i am not sure that will be sufficient. But yes, "sun" god is revered by everyone here. In fact in our ancient texts, gurus traced source of all "life" to sun god. They even composed hymns for meditation th-cam.com/video/M7-_gwbUXcI/w-d-xo.html
For the moment I do not have this intention. But I think, the inverter transfers its status automatically with all other data. So it is stored, but not used (for the moment).
I am set to buy a solar backup system. which include the following - HUAWEI 3.68 KTL M1 Hybrid Inverters and 3 x 5 KWh Batteries with Back up Box. My house has three phase and I was wondering if, in case of a power grid failure, I would be able to light up different appliances on different phases (but same house). Apologies for asking to you directly but this is a huge investment for me, we do have a number of power outrages here and I don’t fully trust the salesmen
@sSpiess apologies for my ignorance but I am really not a technical person. Once again sincere apologies. I only want to keep an AC, fridge, kettle and freezer switched on
I guess the delay comes from inverter start-up in off-grid mode, where it takes time to switch the system and supply electricity. Backward switch to grid is nearly instantaneous. I guess and switch relay will have the same delay to do the mentioned process.
About 12kWh. A bit more in winter and a bit less in Summer. This is including my "home office" (lab) which consumes about 50% of it ;-) Before solar, it was about 20% more. We have wood heating and no e-car.
@@AndreasSpiess I have an Offgrid Inverter that does the switching from using grid to using battery+solar instantly. You hardly notice a flicker. (the inverter is doing it..not an external ATS)
Hello Andreas. I'm new to solar and thought this video was very interesting. I'm just wondering why you are investing this amount of money for something a 1000€ petrol powered generator could do, during a longer blackout? As you, I like things simple, so my plan is to use solar to complement my grid. No batteries, no inverters, no big investments, only solar DC to DC load. Small investments, but still a system that continues to work when the grid goes down. That happens 1-2 times/year here in Sweden and it never lasts longer than a few minutes. As I said, I'm new to solar, but my plan is to use the sun and solar panels to power pumps and resistance wires to heat up my pool, cook food, heat my house and run my water heater. This will work in theory and I'm gonna try to make it work. Simple and cheap solutions. I really like your videos, so keep up the good work 👍
Have a look to Sungrow hybrid inverters (e.g. SH10RT). They have the backup box and transfer switch functions integrated and can deliver 3 phases on emergency power.
A hybrid inverter is not enough as I showed in one of my earlier videos because it has to switch off (by law) when the grid is off. The SH10RT is the same as my Huawei and needs a STB5K backup-box. It also only provides "emergency power" (info from the homepage of Sungrow)
@ulistermclane You are right, and I was wrong. The SH10RT has a Backup box built-in. Still, you would need the trick with the switch if you want to feed your whole home (or connect everything to the backup line, which is probably ok because it is very strong). The price is also very ok.
Sali Andreas, danke für das tolle Video. Heute wurde endlich die Installation der PV-Anlage inkl. Backup Box B1. Ich glaube ich habe sogar die gleiche Anlage wie du. Bei der Abnahme waren der Elektriker und die Solarinstallateur dabei. Sie waren sich nicht einig, ob die Backup Box für mich sinnvoll ist oder nicht. Ich wäre froh, deine Meinung dazu zu hören. Elektriker meint, dass die Backup Box speziell gesichert werden muss und aufgrund der Limitierung von 16 Ampere nichts bringe, währen der Solarinstallateur plötzlich der Meinung ist, dass ich gar keine Notstromanlage benötige. Tatsache ist, dass ich gerne bei einem Stromausfall einen funktionierenden Kühlschrank, einen Tiefkühler und warmes Wasser habe (das letzte wird wohl mit der 1-phasigen Backup Box nur wie bei Dir mit der "short circut zu Phase 1 möglich sein). Super cool wäre eine direkte Konversation dazu, wenn du Zeit hast. Danke schon mal und beste Grüsse, CJ
Es sollten alle Angaben die du brauchtst im Video sein. Ob du eine solche Anlage willst oder nicht musst du und nicht dein Installateur entscheiden. In der Schweiz ist sie vermutlich kaum nötig.
Can't read through 315 comments to see if this was already mentioned, but what are the odds that internet and tv signals keep working during a longer power outage?
Here in Belgium they don't function anymore. The telecom street boxes for cable also loose power. In the old days telephone copper was feeded power from the nearby central, but I can't tell for xdsl gear. I think they use local active gear to that's powered from the local grid.
Hi Andreas, maybe also good to mention, that 99% of the ovens can be supplied with a single phase. If you have a single phase at the installation place, there are metal bars, which bridges L1,L2 and L3. But in your case you bridged them right away - so your oven would work without any problem :)
@@marvintpandroid2213 In the UK domestic supplies are only single phase in nearly all houses, so Ovens and hobs come with L1, L2 and L3 already linked.
@@pjaj43 I have fixed a quite few domestic ovens in the UK and never seen the ability to be used in 3 phase enabled either externally or internally and then lnked out. I have seen that on some US domestic units but then only 2 phase. I have only ever seen 3 phase on industrial kit in the UK.
I only switched the oven and the stove on in off-grid and they did not move. Then I switched them off and was happy that nothing was damaged. I anyway never wanted to use them during such a situation (I have a small gas cooker for real emergencies ;-)
Is the grid so unstable in Switzerland that it's worth the extra cost and effort? I can't remember when the last power outage was in Belgium that lasted more than an hour.... (many years ago)
No, it was never unstable. But when I ordered the equipment, they said it is well possible that they will switch power off for 4 hours. Now the winter was mild and it is probably not needed. But what about the next one? BTW: I hope that it was a waste, but I am not sure.
The grid can be VERY stable, 99% of the time. But, that 1 percent is about three and a half days of power outage measured over a period of one year. And there are MANY factors that can disrupt power on even the most stable grids. Imagine not being able to drive your car with its full tank of fuel, because the local fuel station ran out of fuel. If you have solar and batteries, why shouldn't you be able to use them then the grid is down. As for needing solar AND batteries, it makes long term financial sense depending on the cost of your hardware and then sale and purchase price of electricity. In Australia, if you sell your solar power back to the grid, you do as at a FRACTION of the price you have to pay to buy it. So, if you sell 10kW of power to the grid at $0.10 per kW during the day, but have to buy 10kW of power at $0.50 per kW at night, it is costing you $0.40 per kW per day. On the other hand if you sell nothing and store it in a battery during the day, then don't have to buy any power at night, you aren't paying anything. And that's a saving of $0.40 per kW per day. Of course, power usage tends to be lower during the night and solar systems tend to be designed to produce more power then is commonly used, so you'll tend to fully charge the battery and sell off the excess power whilst still not needing to buy and power. This is when you start making a profit, (or at least recouping your costs). And if this ALSO means you have power during a grid outage, then that's bonus.
A few years ago my area in Switzerland was without power for several hours, a few ten thousand people were impacted by the failure of a 10kV or 20kV transformer if I remember well. Furthermore, the European grid, including Switzerland is connected together, a large failure in one country can mess up the European grid.
Only 4500 CHF for the battery? How did you get such a low price? Searching for LUNA2000 10kWh batteries usually shows almost double the price, which is why I usually don't find these systems worth it.
I wonder about the sum current of N of the oven. 3x the same phase differs from 3 different phase. Let's assume that you can drive the oven off-grid anyhow only a short period and your wire diameter is big enough.
Andreas I was waiting for this video since summer when you said you would post this off grid safe idea! Thank you! Any idea if instead of using LUNA batteries, we could use DIY LiPo batteries with Huawei Sun2000 series?
Hi Andreas, I love your lessons. The transfer switch has a green connector on A and B side label NO NC AR AN. I didn't find any documentation on aliexpress about them. Please let me know if you have any information about them.
I guess the same idea could also be done with an electric car equipped with vehicle2load. That is usually a few kW output, but not sure if it can be automated and wired to be always ready when the car is plugged in. And another thought. Maybe 3-phase equipment can be wired to have supply only from grid, as that would guarantee no odd behaviour if all phases are shorted. At least heat pumps etc are probably best to isolate like that. Otherwise a very innovative idea!
MANY THANKS to you Andreas! I was always wanting to have an independency option for my PVs and your solution inspired me on a way to go! Besides the Backup Box, I ordered similar automatic electricity switch from AliExpress (I have a monophasic 3.65 kw SUN2000 + 15kw LUNA battery) and spent few days to correctly arrange all wiring with an electrician. One conflict we noticed is that the system refused to work if a General (not the main entrance) switch was ON on the system. It was conflicting with the one switch on the Backup Box (I guess) so we had to turn it off permanently. Finally the system started to work as on your video, what a relief! Greetings and thanks for sharing :) Vladimir (Portugal)
Hello ANDREAS. Can you share an electrical diagram/scheme with us for your solution on- and off-grid system with Huawei components? Thank you in advance. Great video and keep up the good work.
Hello Andreas, thank you for making this video! I am about to install a Backup Box, but I came across a technical training video from Huawei th-cam.com/video/aIIgiHcAte8/w-d-xo.html . At time 4:28 they show a diagram that I see that the maximum off grid power that we can get from the Backup Box is only 3300VA. Is that correct in your opinion? For me it looked as if you could power your house without any problems. Thank you!
A nice solution for already existing system and I'm glad it works for you. For a bit more than a price of Huawei inverter + backup box you can buy Deye 8kWt hybrid inverter that can provide full-power 3-phase output in off-grid mode. Also Deye inverter supports unbalanced load, so up to 50% of nominal power (4 out of 8 kWt) can go to the load of one phase. Deye uses low voltage 48V batteries which are more universal comparing to proprietary HV batteries. Also Deye has Smart Load output which is designed to prioritize self-consumption over grid export, fir example by dumping excessive solar energy into a hot water tank. Of course that would be a different build, however total price would be similar, wouldn't require external transfer transfer switch, would provide full-power and correct 3-phase output.
It seems that Dye has a good product. I did not know it. However, as I said in my videos, I wanted a high-voltage battery. And, as an engineer, wasting eletricity to heat water , is a no-go, too. I rather sell it for a cheap price to the community. Electricity is more valuable than 60C water. But charging a car battery would be a perfect application for this function.
3:54 A working internet without a power grid? What is your DSLAM, your cable provider modem or your 4/5G BTS in the neighborhood is running without grid on the street?
I do not know if and how long it would work. I had some power outages (some even caused by me) and therefore decided to add a UPS anyway. But I agree, in most cases, the internet will be dead when energy is off.
Wow, it looks like you know how to party! 🎉 I'm so jealous of your fancy setup; it sounds like you'll be set for any power outages! Thanks for sharing such a cool project. I really like how you've put your whole house (almost) on backup mode. I'm purchasing a 3-phase hybrid inverter (Solis) with backup mode. According to the datasheet, the AC backup port is also 3-phase, which can switch to battery in 40ms in the event of a power outage. I'm not sure how this inverter can be integrated with the whole house. I might need to implement your solution later on.
Andreas, I am wondering if 3:13 KM3 in the backup box is wired correctly in this schematic. What is the purpose of having the coil from L1 to L2, and the contacts shorting L2 to N? And L3 remains floating? Second contact N to PE is clear to me. All that seems a very special solution for a special problem, since the SUN2000 can deliver only 1 phase "Ersatzstrom".
This backup box is from Huawei and particularly made for the SUN2000 inverters. Other suppliers seem to sell their solutions. And hopefully, they integrate it one day into the inverter...
Having solar and the grid being down was a major source of consumer outrage in Florida after hurricane Dorian (2019), without power being restore for a week, or more. Personally I'm learning that Swiss have 3-phase power supply to residences. Many regions of world only have 2-phase power. Thanks for sharing your learnings.
In Florida, my system would probably be more valuable ;-) I was there after a Hurricane and saw what it did. Not nice! In Europe, quite a few countries run 3 phases to residential buildings.
Maybe I misunderstood something... the SUN2000 inverter runs 3-phase when the grid is connected, but only 1 phase in backup mode? Or is there a second inverter for the grid-tie operation? This is one case where I'm glad we split one phase here in the US... much simpler household electrics! 👍
Yes, the SUN2000 inverter runs 3-phase when the grid is connected, but only 1 phase in backup mode (explanation in an earlier video). This is the reason for my "hack".
Hmm... why switching to backup power took so long? I have a similar Chinese 4P switch (branded GEYA) and the transition between sources is nearly seamless
Because the law says we must wait with starting the off-grid mode of the inverter till the grid is disconnected. That is why the Backup box does this timing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Star connected motors supplied from 1 phase will overheat immediately, the currents will be the LRA (Locked Rotor Amperage) and the system will overload the inverter 🤔 ....... Star connected resistive loads can "overload" the neutral wire if they are too high, but if they are small loads I do not see that much problem
Greetings from the other side of switzerland. I now have the same setup as you with one exception, I have a manual transfer switch from ABB. My power outage test was together with the electrician inspector. Funny thing was that the luna was still charging during the test because the sun was shining and there was plenty of power available from the pv. How much do you spare for power outage? I configured 20% or 3kWh.
For the moment I have 95 and 10% as limits. But mainly because I want to extend the life of the battery. I only will change it when I see something changing in the overall situation of our grid. BTW: We already had an outage when I was not at home. My wife did not know that there was one ;-)
Nice hack. However I still would try to have priority loads on separate line/phase. Because you know... power of habits. Especially if you don't have any constant "alarm"/indicator that grid is off.
With out 10kWh battery and solar charging also in off-grid mode we could live our life off-grid during a big part of the year. So it is not too critical.
From my experience with my install. Basically the same as yours without the transfer switch; the backup output from the backup box is always powered; even when the grid is up.
Hello Andreas, thank you for your interesting videos. I have one question about the automatic transfer switch. If the grid is switched back on in case after a blackout, it is not guaranteed that voltage/frequency are 100% stable. Wouldn't it make sense to switch back to the grid after a while? If you switch back too early you could damage your devices with under/over voltage. I see advantages here with the manual switch. Many greetings!
You are right, it could make sense to wait. But I compared it with the "normal" situation where my devices are directly connected to the grid. Then, they also would get all the instabilities.
Others said the same. I got a 3 phase model instead of one with 4 and Aliexpress refunded the whole amount. So I will do some reliability tests on my bench...
ha ha ha - not only a guru but also an inventor: @2:18 - "complicativness - Did you mean: complications? - It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search" ;-)
Very interesting solution. Here in Italy, residential customers are usually suplied with single phase 230VAC, so this type of setup would be even simpler to adopt.
Please take a look at the Deye/Sunsynk inverters
I hope, I will not need another inverter for the next 10 years or so ;-)
Does the transfer switch back automatically to mains power once the grid power is restored ( after a suitable delay ) ?
Yes. I connected it this way.
Ups's have caused me more outages than they've ever saved me
Here, too ;-)
Interesting exactly what I need , I want to make my own back up box , do you know what the signal/ voltage is given from the original backup box to the inverter to fire it in back up operation?
No. I assume the backup box just has a relay contact.
Guessing you chose the Huawei inverter because it works with HomeAssistant OS, but can it be restricted to a VLAN with no internet access?
I assume it works without internet. Then, you have to do the updates with your Smartphone. And you can connect it with a wired Modbus.
I showed why I bougt it in earlier videos.
Around €5k for a battery is not bad!
No, not at all. I agree.
This is such a satisfying solution :) It was always a shame in my opinion that so much power is available in emergency situations, but not usable
I assume newer designs will integrate these possibilities right from the factory. Solar sill is in its infancy...
This is how all Solar installations should be installed rather than sitting there usless during a power outage.
I agrree.
@@AndreasSpiess There's some safety concerns. If the power is cut so workers can operate on the lines?
@@cmuller1441 the inverter is already detecting grid power loss, so instead of turning itself off why doesn't it just cut the connection to the grid?
@@35manning An increasing number of inverters do just that. In the US, most notable are SMA and MPP, both of which have options for daytime backup without batteries.
I had a solar system put in about 8 years ago, but because I was in the middle of a construction project (and had young kids at the time), I didn't take the opportunity to learn enough about the various tradeoffs. If I had your diligence and taken your structured approach to learning, I would have avoided a lot of mistakes! What has helped me learn was the installation of a much smaller DC-only system with some panels I got cheaply later - nothing quite like building it to learn.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!
I agree, I always have to use projects to learn! Reading book does not create enough questions for me .
I guess, I wouldnt have had the balls for the test of the full electrical instlalation, to be honest. Respect, Andreas.
I also double and tripple checked and waited at least one day before I had the courage of turning the switch;-)
Hi, many thanks for your inspiring project.
It must be noted that, at least in Switzerland, any modification to a house wiring requires the neutral regime to be of TN-S type due to differentiel protection requirements (FI or DDR). Older houses (like mine) were often connected using TN-C (1 wire for both neutral and protective earth PE).
No modification to the wiring is allowed unless it is changed to TN-S, so there is no way to setup an Off-Grid backup System. This can be quite costly. So my Huawei SUN2000 will still stop when Off-grid, until we find an economical solution (maybe just setup part of the wiring to TN-S, while having the rest of the house still on TNC, and getting no current when OFF-Grid).
Thank you for your information. Unfortunately, I do not understand your problem ( I am not "fluid" in house installations). This is why I trusted my electrician and hope, he got it right. There are also FI fuses in the backup box, BTW.
Earthing and wiring schema is a thorny topic, there are also lot of regulations involved
@@AndreasSpiess it's quite easy your Outlet have free wires going to it live, Earth and neutral and his wiring only has two wires - no extra earth pin
The Backup Box manual from Huawei explicitly forbids connecting to TN-C grid types. However, if the household is wired as TN-C-S then it is perfectly fine. You can't switch to TN-S unless the power company does it for the whole neighborhood supplied from the same source in your area, which would be extremely expensive. The cheaper option would be to change your TN-C system to TN-C-S system where you split the source Neutral(PE) wire into two at the power distribution box at your house. Of course this must be in correspondence with your country's electrical regulations. Another way is to convert to a TT system where you install separate earthing system for your house getting a completely independent protective earthing while you use the source Neutral(PE) only as Neutral. This again must be advised with your local electrical regulations.
Hi Andreas. I did quite similar things with a transfer switch with the exception that I use a 1000VA USV with external 24V batteries as Voltage source and I cleaned up the phases such that all I want to power ( light, freezers, IT and heating (just 35W for control and pumps) is supplied on one phase. This makes me sure that no dish washer, washing machine is powered in off grid mode thet may lead to overload of the backup power supply. I hacked the APC USV such that it self start when supplying 24 V. This needs just some sequential button presses which I realized with an Attiny controller. So everything is now fully automatical and work without manual interventions.
Cool! So your system is similar to a emergency generator, just without using fuel!
Here, we wanted to power the whole home, not only the critical systems with solar because in late February/March when they predict potential power outages, the sun should already produce enough energy for everything (except cooking). So we should be able to live a "normal" live.
Great content ! So the UPS will take over the grid when its goes off ? Is there a special UPS for that?
If you mean the UPS for my lab: It was an Eaton. But it was defective after a short time...
Very clever solution. Thanks to Andreas. If somebody needs an motor driven generator, consider also a "tractor power axel driven generator". Old tractors are very realiable motors, and generators can be transported at the hook-up levers at the back of the tractor.
Good solution if you have a garage for the tractor ;-)
Indeed, often reffered to as PTO: power take off.
In some country side districts there are several old tractors in barns or open field with a minimal cover blancet. They use their new tractors with 200 hp + 1,7 m front&back tyres also for school trips daily (15 years is enough to drive these monsters).
If you have some loads on a UPS (like several outlets fed by a 1000W UPS), fed by some larger batteries that give you some time, you could just feed those batteries with DC from any source, tractor or just an engine or a car, then let the UPS switch back in with the grid and put up the tractor at your leisure. A little automation is required if you don't plan to stay home all the time.
Your single phase to multi-phase back-up hack, works for two phase countries as well. My electrician thought I was crazy until he thought about it.
It also took us some time because it is a bit "out of the box" for a decent professional.
Hallo Andreas. Ich wurde durch einen gemeinsamen Viewer auf Dich aufmerksam gemacht. Unser Swiss-Alpöhienglisch hat offenbar parallelen 😀 Wowww, dein Kanal ist ja gigantisch! Falls Du mal eine tolle Idee hast, wie man ein Schweizer Taschenmesser mit deinen Skills aufmotzen/umbauen/ergänzen/abändern/elektrifizieren oder was auch immer könnte, lass es mich wissen. Wäre spannend mal eine Zusammenarbeit mit Dir zu machen.
Liebi Grüessli vom Bodäsee
dä Felix
Hallo Felix,
ich kannte deinen Kanal noch nicht (nun hast du aber einen Subscriber mehr ;-) .Ich habe ja früher immer mein Taschenmesser für die Mailbags verwendet und da hätten wir einen Ansatzpunkt. Allerdings ist diese Videokategorie nicht mehr so beliebt und deshalb habe ich schon lange keines mehr gemacht.
Meine Zuschauer haben sich beklagt, dass mein Messer Stumpf ist...
Hallo Andreas. Deine Antwort hat mich sehr gefreut.
Vielleicht gibt's ja mal ein Video mit einem micro GPS Trekker ... oder irgendwas in Richtung Funk.... oder Photovoltaik auf der Griffschale... die springende Idee ist mir bislang noch nicht gekommen. Lass es mich Wissen, wenn Du eine tolle Idee hast. Wenn ich mal was baue in mit Elektronik, werde ich Dich mal anfragen ob das spannend sein könnte für Dich.
Liebe Grüsse
Felix
Hi Andreas, be aware with these chinese ATS they are not reliable versus time. I already cooked two of them with less than 100 commutations (and with small loads < 150W)....
Good to know. Was it the same one I used? I probably (hopefully) will not have many commutations, but it is good to know.
@@AndreasSpiess Yes the 8ms monophased version ...
Having the same.. How did it fail? Just the time delay electronics inside or dangerous the load contacts...
@@michaeleitel7186 I had both type of failure
@@sebydocky5080 I have the same question as Michael.
Hi Andreas, thinking from a DFMEA-perspective: If you ever have an "oh-sh*t" moment (electrocution/fire/etc.) and need to kill power to the house, won't the inverter be a try-hard and override your "main power off" action? How can you easily kill main power in your meter-box , in such a situation?
Surely there's a second fuse box after that one that has RCDs and stuff, so he can cut off power from there
In most houses (as is the case in his) you have a RCCB/RCBO switch in the circuit. I assume that his failover solution is before said switch, so if he needs to cut the power to the whole house, he could use that switch. Maybe the transfer switch also has a manual override, too.
I have a fuse right at the inverter that I can switch it off manually. And the one I used to cut-off the grid.
Yesterday weve installed a 200kw diesel generator at our company in bern. Just for worst case situations.
Slightly bigger than my installation ;-) But it is scary that we have to do such things in Switzerland.
Depending on the purpose, it might be wise to add a battery pack to close the gap between grid switching. Power generators have a small startup time and a small period of time to produce a stable output. Larger installations and critical infrastructure are not pleased with a delay of 1,5s. The batterypack kicks in first and as soon as the power generator produces a stable output the grid switches to the generator. Very reliable, very expensive too.
You may use a VFD (variable frequency drive) to solve the 3 phase problem. Many of them can be supplied by 1 phase + neutral and output 3 phases + neutral. You can also set the VFD to various parameters. This is usually done to power motors.
I agree. But in my home, this would be a solution without a problem ;-)
I recorded "here is the guy with the Swiss accent" onto a solar powered recorder. So I can get a smile on my face even if power goes out for weeks.
Cool! ;-)
If the power goes out, most of your neighbors will turn into zombies and will be attracted to light! *
You need to make sure that roll shutters on the windows automatically close and that the light can't be switched on if they are open.
* according to rumors on the internet and confirmed by trustworthy tabloids. ;)
I think we will solve one problem after the other ;-) But you might be right. Maybe they get nicer if they can charge their gadgets and use my HAM radio station?
@@AndreasSpiess Offering them access to your ham radio at a time when almost all local sources of QRM are without power is really nice. But please make sure they are licensed. If they aren't, ask them to get licensed. ;-)
Apropos QRM: Have you checked how quiet your new toys are?
@@zvpunry1971 They do not need to be licensed if I am around. And yes, I checked it and did not find problems.
As a UK resident, I envy your 3-phase supply. We only get one phase in domestic installations. But I suppose that implementing your solution would be much easier.
Indeed, you could save two phases of the switch. And the backup box would be simpler (and probably cheaper).
I feel that our situation (just 1 phase) is more convenient. No complexities, simpler wiring, you don't have to think how to balance load, etc...
If you need three phases, you can pay for a three-phase supply, but it make your life more complex.
Thanks a lot for sharing this solution, Andreas. Basically you can go off grid on demand and perhaps just get a gas stove for cooking. Wonderful!
Indeed, the gas stove is waiting for the outage…
for around 10.000 euros I build a system with 13kwh of batteries 6kw of solar and 2 inverters. A cheap grid tied inverter from a brand called solax and a victron multiplus 2 5000va. The system power the home with out grid and if i don't have engough sun it switch to the grid. for the money the system is quite cheap. I build everything my self so that lower the cost significantly.
Good project! I hope you will be successful!
Hi Andreas, I love you solution and like to test your creativity!.
We have a home with
3 x 10k 3phase inverters with each 15kw batteries and 3 backupboxes (66pv panels).
The house is powered by 3 x 400V+N (32amp) and inside the house evrything is cabled on 3 times 230v , we needed the 400v for heating pumps and the Electric car.
How would you propose to power the house and combine the 3 backup boxes mono phase 230v and create
1) 3 phase 230v
or even
2) 3 phases 400V+N
Any solution is good (UPS, transformator or recabeling)
Thanks for your creativity
Alex
I do not do consulting (too dangerous). I only show my findings in my videos. But I am sure, with the understanding of what I did, you will find the right way for your situation that is legal and working. Your situation is basically the same as mine. The only thing is that I had to do a trick because I only had one phase to power 3 phases.
Extremely bad idea! The ATS you are using is very low quality. I have a few on fire and stopped fitting them. It's much better to keep Huawei's original idea without overcomplicating the installation.
It's just a matter of redesigning your board and separating the important phase 1 loads
Most of my consumers have no dedicated wire to the board.
What was the failure mode of your ATS?
I believe two important things should be noted for this solution:
1. In this way you connect the whole house load to the backup system. This means the house load should not exceed more than 5kw for LUNA2000(10-15kwH) or 2.5kW for LUNA2000(5kwH). Shorting the three phases means that you support the whole house load and some households may exceed the 5kW(2.5kW) limit which would cause the battery short circuit breaker to activate. Most three phase stoves can operate with a single phase, excluding the oven. This means having only 1-3 burners turned on (or maybe a boiler) will get you close to the 5kW(2.5kW) limit.
2. The L1 terminal in the backup box and source A terminal of the ATS switch should be connected to the same phase. Otherwise in cases where a single phase drops, due to a short circuit break from the sourcing power distribution box for the household, you may get unpredictable behaviors. One scenario is where an inverter goes into off-grid mode but the ATS switch does not transfer to backup power, leaving the household powered with the remaining phases from grid. Another scenario is where the inverter enters alarm mode due to missing a phase for proper operation in grid-tied mode, but the missing phase is not the one that triggers switchover to off-grid mode, this way the ATS switch may completely shut down power to the house although you can power the house with the remaining phases.
I agree.
Hello ,
Are the ports for the neutral conductor on terminals X1 (backup load-port 2). X2 (grid-port 4) and X3 (Inverter-port 8) at Backup box-B1 at the same potential?
From which port is the neutral conductor connected to the switch (which you suggest) for the load? (X1 port 2 or X2 port 4).
The network is of the TT type.
Can you draw a three-pole diagram?
Thank you
Miletic from Serbia
I do not have more information than shown in the video. Look at the drawing at 6:29 that shows the whole setup. Backup power is the single-phase output of the inverter.
Very interesting. Ideally I would have liked to see what happens when grid comes back. Also, I would like you to have identified the "two breakers in seroes" that the electricity suppliers requires - presume one is the changeover switch and the other is part of the Backup Box.
Having the breakers in series reduces the risk of sticking contacts, thus injecting power back into the grid. He showed them in the schematics.
Nameless ghost is correct. And the switch back is without effects. The transfer switch takes a few milliseconds to automatically switch from backup to the grid. You hardly see it.
Hey, I really like your videos. They helped me getting more advanced in my hobby.
I would like to know if you have a community discord channel where I can get help If Google cannot help me or where I can talk with other members from your community😊
If not, maybie you know a discord channel like that?
Thank you really much 😃
The link to the discord channel should be in the video description.
Great video! For a 1-fase house, can we just enter the grid on the backup box and exit the whole house on the backup load?
I think so. But you still need the switch that switches the backup power to your home.
Hi Andrea, maybe I missed it but did you consider a Hybrid inverter. You could check the Growatt systems. I use a SPF5000ES, only 1phase but you have 3P options aswell. The only drawback this system does not netmetering (export to grid) but new hybrid systems with this option exist. All switching from grid to inverter is automatic, the inverter is disconected from grid, If you use correctly sized batteries for storing sunpower 'you are good to go'. just my 5cents. Thank you for your great videos! You inspire! 73
My inverter probably is called „hybrid“ ( I do not know the exact definition). It uses solar, manages the battery, and provides 3phase power to my home.
A hybrid inverter does the switching between sources automaticaly. source 1 = PV, 2=battery, 3=grid/disel agregat
@@Phoerixx my Multiplus also have a transfer switch, but if you have a 3 phase at home and only one phase inverter, you have to use an external ATS
Hi Andreas
1) Where is the Huawei smart power sensor located in the setup?
On the grid side of the Automatic Transfer switch?
2) Is the any circuit breakers or relays on the grid side of the ATS? Like a EHFI relay?
3) I assume the grid meter is on the grid side of the ATS?
4) Since the SUN2000 gets its power from the house grid, which in your case is powered by the backup box when off grid, can that be the reason it still powers the inverter allowing the solar panels to provide power for the house grid as well charging the Lunar2000 battery?
Because Huawei states only the L1 inverter can run in pure off grid mode, not the M1 you have (and I). The M1 supposedly only allows the battery to provide backup power…
For me, if the SUN2000 does not charge battery and run house on solar when off grid, backup box is not much use.
So I am really curious how you made it do it!!!
Best regards from Denmark
The Smart meter is on the grid side. There is no need for it if off-grid. As said, my inverter charges the battery in off-grid (Huawei info is probably outdated).
The rest of your questions should be answered in the video.
As I am not really an electrician I have some issues in understanding the ATS-wiring (to be able to discuss with my electrician). My understanding: Source A (upper area): Phases 1-3 are not connected, just phase and neutral on the green connector from Grid. Source B (lower area, upper connector): The phase from the backup-box is connected to phase 1 and also to 2 and 3, right? The green connector is connected to phase and neutral from the backup box. The lower connector on the lower area is the output to the load.
Yes. The Huawei inverter only provides one phase. But I wanted light in all rooms. So I connected this one phase to all phases.
a victron multiplus II 48/5000/70 does the job ... with 15KW LFP for the same money
Thank you for sharing your experience!
The transfer switch looks very "chinese". I have a manual transfer switch, and after a few switching cycles, it started to not always switch all phases... Issues with DC circuit breakers as well...
If i would build my system again, i would not again use chinese stuff for electrics. It is ok for cheap microcontrollers, if two out of twenty don't work. But if your UPS fails, while the grid would work...
By the way, i like your solution. Why more expensive or complicated, if it fits your needs?
Good to know! We will see if it holds up. Maybe (hopefully) it will not be often used . And if it breaks, I still can order a better one. The damage in this situation is not too big.
What I could do is to test the 3phase one that was delivered wrongly in a bench scenario.
Hello Andreas, thanks for your videos. I have noticed one possible problem with connecting 1 phase to 3 phases and it is possible overloading of neutral (blue) wire on appliance connected to 3 phase to star. If phases of AC are shifted by 120 degree, as from grid, than in balanced load there is no current on blue wire and in worst unbalanced case there is same current as maximum on each phase wire. Therefore blue wire has normally same (or smaller) diameter as phase wires. If all three phases are conneted to one though, there is no shift, and on blue wire current will be 3x phase current. As this is how my water heater is connected (3 phase to star) i have been thinking about current on neutral wire an it is freshly in my mind. As you do not use electricity for heating, this is probably not an issue for you, but it is important in general, as this could lead to serious overheating of blue wire if used for longer time. I hope this is not already mentioned in other comment, but there are too many.
In principle, you are right. However, my inverter only delivers 5kW. So there is no problem with that. Plus to save (precious) energy when the grid is down, I do not use such high-power applications.
Unfortunately it wouldn't work on my house. I don't have a neutral wire.
Each phase in my house delivers 130volt. When connecting a device in between two phases, it will get 230v. But if all phases are joined together then obviously that doesn't work anymore and my devices won't work. It would be like connecting both connections of a device to L1 in a normal house.
I agree.
What would happen if, for example, phase 1 is down (which would activate the transfer switch) but phases 2 and 3 are still active in the grid? It is not that uncommon for only a single phase to fail.
It would change to backup and cut the two working grid phases.
I have worked a bit with UPSs in hosting servers and datacenters and connecting a UPS to a UPS (daisy chained) is a hard no-no as it can cause critical failures, and seeing that the solar inverter and battery is on a sense working as a UPS here; One threat is that the current draw can cause the upstream UPS to go into an overload condition or distort the output voltage waveform. When this occurs, it can prompt the UPS to detect a power fluctuation, revert to battery power, and continually cycle between the battery and normal operation. Plugging one UPS into another can also spark inverter compatibility issues, where the unit closest to the load doesn’t recognize the other UPS’s power as sufficient. This compels both UPSs go to battery, defeating the intent. Daisy-chaining can also force UPS controllers to work against each other, leading to harmonic distortion on power lines.
So... you might want to make sure that this is not that case in your scenario.
Thank you for your input! I am not sure how much your scenarios apply to my case. My small UPS for the computer and the network only consumes about 300W ( constant load). The PV inverter can supply 3kW in backup operation. So I hope that the influence of the small UPS on the inverter is not big enough to create problems. And the small UPS does (hopefully) not care where it gets the energy from. What do you think?
Thank's a million, I have ordered the transfer switch which, looking forward to testing this :-)
Hope you enjoy it!
This video does not mention, is the Smart Meter (DTSU666-H) also required for this solution to work? In the wiring diagrams I am seeing this as an integral part and also in your video when looking at the fuse box it is present.
As all grid-connected systems it needs this smart meter, you are right.
I have the same Huawei sun2000 system with 10 kw battery as you have, I asked my installer to add an additional backup box so I could use the system when the grid was down. He has never been back to install it and I'm beginning to think it's because he knows it's only capable of running a single power lead and I need it to power the whole house. Maybe all we need in addition to the backup box is this transfer switch ?
Just out of interest Huawei state the system should be able to run in off-grid mode without a backup box i.e if it's installed in a remote location without mains power, therefore is it not possible during a power cut to simply switch off the mains supply and switch the battery to DC ? will this not supply the power to the inverter and run the house? I have asked this question on various forums but never got an answer.
I would not buy a Huawei system for off grid (it will only provide one phase energy). There are much better solutions for that (e.g. Victron). The capabilities of the SUN2000 are well documented and I showed in a previous video why they cannot do 3 phase backup power (as many other simple inverters).
12:04
Are those live uninsulated bus bars connecting bottom terminals of devices on 2nd row, aren't they?
The bars connect the phases to the fuses.
Very interesting, usefull and entertaining. What else? Btw, at 5:38 you metioned that "old motors" won't work in a star configuration because of the rotating field. However, by useing the Steinmetz circuit (adding capacitor to create fase momentum) it is possible. Of course with the downside of losing a lot of power/torque from the motor. I had to come up with this solution several times (air compressor, no 3 phases available). It is however a emercency solution that I would not recommend.
With some Variable Frequency Drives it is possible to power smaller 3 phase motors with one phase.
@@olafvanes Indeed, there are plenty of those on AlieExpress etc... Usually for smaller motors. Their price is quite reasonable.
@Philip: As you know, I forgot all these things during the years because I hardly touch more than 12 volt systems. But good to know in an emergency situation.
@@AndreasSpiess I'm very fond of 12V systems too and I'm replacing 230V circuits where I can with 12V (or 24V). This goes very well for everything related to lights. Makes it handy for battery backup and legislation is much easier.
@@PhG1961 My radio room (with the exception of the PC) works on 12V, too. But the lab is on different levels... 12V is really very simple: Just connect a LiFePo battery and it works...
Are the stove and oven really connected in delta? It doesn't seem the case here in Australia where 3-phase supply is used to balance the loads by connecting different elements in star...
I was also thinking it would be delta until I read some appliance installation destructions. Seems like they don't want to deal with the higher voltage.
I did not check. The just do not work off-grid. So I supposed they are connected in delta.
I don't know about the Helvetic confederation but here in EU (I mean Greece) the domestic circuit connected to the grid has to be certified by a technician. This implies that every single devices such as the transfer switch has to be CE compliant which i doupt it is when you buy it from AlliExpress (I may be wrong, please double check by yourself). Siemens sells one but it's above 1000€ here. The Hager model is 813€. The Chinese one is only 36€ 🤔Something tells me that the price tag is not just due to the CE sticker.
I do not know, but the professional Electrician installed it. In this application, it is not very critical. Nothing dangerous happens if it does not switch and if it connects the grid to backup while the grid is on (which is a very strange failure mode because it switches between the grid and backup), we get a dead short across two phases (because they are connected) and will trigger the fuses.
@@AndreasSpiessI didn't say that it was dangerous, I said I have no idea why the price tag is so high and maybe it is for other reasons than safety. Maybe reliability? Maybe it's the EU specifications that makes it expensive to produce? Lack of mass production? I don't really know.
@@srfrg9707 I also do not know. But in my case, I hope it will never be used (or just a few times a year). I assume there are other use cases. 1000 Euro for a simple two-way switch seems a lot to me anyway...
CE is self certifying....the companies grade themselves, it is the most nothing of all standards. A kid could set up a lemonade stand, write CE on the side, and it would probably pass...you know, since the kid would be the one deciding if it did or not.
@@srfrg9707 On Amazon user review I found an interesting hint about the potential issues with this switch. It is not (always) switching as fast as promised and no guarantee that all phases and neutral switch synchronously. This could cause an issue if the neutral switches later and is not connected for few milliseconds while the mains are already connected. This is mainly an issue when switching back to he grid with 3 phases, as in such case there could be >230V if the sources on the the three phases are quite unbalanced load.
Thanks again and Congrats! Paralleling all 3 Phases could overload the neutral line of loads in star configuration. But during power outage, cooking will be done by a camping gas cooker.
Your solution is very unexpensive. The battery is way less expensive than my BYD HVS. And your Backup-box is quite fast.
My Fronius Gen24 supports 3 phase backup. But it needs an expensive backup box und the transfer is slower than yours (German rules, I think). Otherwise my small Victron backup solution for the heating system has UPS speed.
The Victrons seem to be very fast. A colleague has a 3 phase design and is happy. When I ordered our inverter I did not think that I ever will think of a backup solution. For normal operation, my inverter/battery is extremely cheap ( and is LiFePo4 and high voltage). All deciding factors. one year ago...
@@AndreasSpiess The backup idea was the starting point for me in 2021 after reading the report of the Bundesrechnungshof anticipating the issues and after the elections. But I hesitated too long because I wanted to avoid 3000 EUR for a new main distribution box in my >50 year old house (crazy German rules). And I wanted to have a 3 phase Victron system. But here, there is no company installing this. So, I ordered in March 2022 a "standard system". Then, all was delayed until autumn. In autumn our government decided 0% VAT for PV beginning from 2023. End of january the system was installed but I have to wait until the meter is replaced by a two directional one..... Long journey
@@klassichd10 Indeed. We were lucky, and from the order (24.2.22) to the first energy (26.5.22) was fast. The counter came in June. But I still do not have a valid invoice...
@@AndreasSpiess But you have your "own" electricity. Fast and inexpensive, lucky man. Virtutis fortuna adjuvat. Great DIY team.
@@klassichd10 Indeed. Being a TH-camr might have helped a bit ;-)
if i had access to my home wiring from 800km away using something like "VPN for wires" i would have followed this route for remote troubleshoot. Besides when my home was built they put the main inverter where carrying wires is aesthetically undesirable. May be in future i might consider replacing my home inverter with a "smart" solar inverter with grid export feature. Until then i watch solar generation/export in my android phone using data stored in china. Also since the himalayan chilly winds have subsided a little, which sucked away all human heat, i can also clean bird droppings from the solar panels and show off to my neighbours. By the way, after i installed the solar panels about 8-9 years ago, almost all the roofs in my neighbourhood have solar panels 😞
You mention an interesting fact: Countries like yours are much more advanced in Solar than Switzerland. In my village, only 25% of the buildings have solar. But I assume this will change over the next years if I believe all the discussions with my friends.
If everyone will have solar connected to grid it will not work!! because no one will be paying for electricity. In addition, right now we are importing silicon wafers, just assembling them here. But after the events of 2019-20 general trend of electronics is to move out of china. So maybe we will have silicon manufactured from sand right in our country. Another major problem is the to have battery. I am not sure if we have lithium mines in our country. Our mainstay is lead-acid with strong smell enough to intoxicate some people without requirement of any alcohol. They are now talking about hydrogen trains and all those kind of big things but i am not sure that will be sufficient.
But yes, "sun" god is revered by everyone here. In fact in our ancient texts, gurus traced source of all "life" to sun god. They even composed hymns for meditation th-cam.com/video/M7-_gwbUXcI/w-d-xo.html
Do you have plans to include an MQTT message showing if and how many minutes you are on emergency power?
For the moment I do not have this intention. But I think, the inverter transfers its status automatically with all other data. So it is stored, but not used (for the moment).
I am set to buy a solar backup system. which include the following - HUAWEI 3.68 KTL M1 Hybrid Inverters and 3 x 5 KWh Batteries with Back up Box. My house has three phase and I was wondering if, in case of a power grid failure, I would be able to light up different appliances on different phases (but same house).
Apologies for asking to you directly but this is a huge investment for me, we do have a number of power outrages here and I don’t fully trust the salesmen
I answered this question in the video.
@sSpiess apologies for my ignorance but I am really not a technical person. Once again sincere apologies. I only want to keep an AC, fridge, kettle and freezer switched on
Consider exploring Victron equipment. MQTT, ModbusTCP and Node-RED is native to the ecosystem. Your changeover will be within 20ms.
My colleague uses Victron and is happy with it. Have to keep mine for the next few years...
I guess the delay comes from inverter start-up in off-grid mode, where it takes time to switch the system and supply electricity. Backward switch to grid is nearly instantaneous. I guess and switch relay will have the same delay to do the mentioned process.
What's your average daily consumption?
About 12kWh. A bit more in winter and a bit less in Summer. This is including my "home office" (lab) which consumes about 50% of it ;-) Before solar, it was about 20% more.
We have wood heating and no e-car.
The switching from ON to Off grid took alot of time.....I wonder how hibrid inverters do it, it's seemless
Mine is hybrid. This time is required by our electricity company.
@@AndreasSpiess I have an Offgrid Inverter that does the switching from using grid to using battery+solar instantly. You hardly notice a flicker. (the inverter is doing it..not an external ATS)
Part number and brand of the auto changeover switch please 🙏
As said in the video (at the end): All relevant links are in the description ;-)
Hello Andreas. I'm new to solar and thought this video was very interesting. I'm just wondering why you are investing this amount of money for something a 1000€ petrol powered generator could do, during a longer blackout?
As you, I like things simple, so my plan is to use solar to complement my grid. No batteries, no inverters, no big investments, only solar DC to DC load. Small investments, but still a system that continues to work when the grid goes down. That happens 1-2 times/year here in Sweden and it never lasts longer than a few minutes.
As I said, I'm new to solar, but my plan is to use the sun and solar panels to power pumps and resistance wires to heat up my pool, cook food, heat my house and run my water heater. This will work in theory and I'm gonna try to make it work. Simple and cheap solutions.
I really like your videos, so keep up the good work 👍
The backup solution was a hobby for me. Not needed in Switzerland (like in Swiden)...
@@AndreasSpiess Ok, I understand. Thanks for the reply
Have a look to Sungrow hybrid inverters (e.g. SH10RT). They have the backup box and transfer switch functions integrated and can deliver 3 phases on emergency power.
hybrid inverters are the way to go. all you need in one box. don't install something else or be prepared for blackouts !
A hybrid inverter is not enough as I showed in one of my earlier videos because it has to switch off (by law) when the grid is off. The SH10RT is the same as my Huawei and needs a STB5K backup-box. It also only provides "emergency power" (info from the homepage of Sungrow)
@ulistermclane You are right, and I was wrong. The SH10RT has a Backup box built-in. Still, you would need the trick with the switch if you want to feed your whole home (or connect everything to the backup line, which is probably ok because it is very strong). The price is also very ok.
Back up box otherwise known as a switch. Clunk! Done.
I am not sure if you are right. I would say: Multiple switches including some delay lines. Then you are right.
I have a question. Do you think this system would work without grid connection at all ?
Regards,
Benoit
I would use a different inverter for that purpose.
Ok danke schön @@AndreasSpiess
Off-Grid System? Take Deye!
Thank you for sharing your experience!
but why you need expensive backup box, transfer switch can disconnect grid and provide signal to switch inverter to backup mode.
This is the law here...
@@AndreasSpiess what? LOL and hacking the rest is fine, right? come on
I like the 3-phase problem's solution. Well done.
Thank you!
Why not just buying the 3 phase backup box?
Because of the price? My backup box is 3-phase. I would need a different inverter.
Sali Andreas, danke für das tolle Video. Heute wurde endlich die Installation der PV-Anlage inkl. Backup Box B1. Ich glaube ich habe sogar die gleiche Anlage wie du. Bei der Abnahme waren der Elektriker und die Solarinstallateur dabei. Sie waren sich nicht einig, ob die Backup Box für mich sinnvoll ist oder nicht. Ich wäre froh, deine Meinung dazu zu hören.
Elektriker meint, dass die Backup Box speziell gesichert werden muss und aufgrund der Limitierung von 16 Ampere nichts bringe, währen der Solarinstallateur plötzlich der Meinung ist, dass ich gar keine Notstromanlage benötige. Tatsache ist, dass ich gerne bei einem Stromausfall einen funktionierenden Kühlschrank, einen Tiefkühler und warmes Wasser habe (das letzte wird wohl mit der 1-phasigen Backup Box nur wie bei Dir mit der "short circut zu Phase 1 möglich sein). Super cool wäre eine direkte Konversation dazu, wenn du Zeit hast. Danke schon mal und beste Grüsse, CJ
Es sollten alle Angaben die du brauchtst im Video sein. Ob du eine solche Anlage willst oder nicht musst du und nicht dein Installateur entscheiden. In der Schweiz ist sie vermutlich kaum nötig.
Can't read through 315 comments to see if this was already mentioned, but what are the odds that internet and tv signals keep working during a longer power outage?
I do not know because we never had a long outage. But I assume they will fade away after a few hours.
Here in Belgium they don't function anymore. The telecom street boxes for cable also loose power.
In the old days telephone copper was feeded power from the nearby central, but I can't tell for xdsl gear. I think they use local active gear to that's powered from the local grid.
_Great!_
👍 - _also_ for the YT algo! 😊
👍 - _auch_ für den YT-Algo! 😊
Thank you!
Engineering and science rocks! This is awesome.
Thank you!
Hi Andreas, maybe also good to mention, that 99% of the ovens can be supplied with a single phase. If you have a single phase at the installation place, there are metal bars, which bridges L1,L2 and L3. But in your case you bridged them right away - so your oven would work without any problem :)
That depends on where you live.
@@marvintpandroid2213 probably right :) in my case Germany
@@marvintpandroid2213 In the UK domestic supplies are only single phase in nearly all houses, so Ovens and hobs come with L1, L2 and L3 already linked.
@@pjaj43 I have fixed a quite few domestic ovens in the UK and never seen the ability to be used in 3 phase enabled either externally or internally and then lnked out.
I have seen that on some US domestic units but then only 2 phase.
I have only ever seen 3 phase on industrial kit in the UK.
I only switched the oven and the stove on in off-grid and they did not move. Then I switched them off and was happy that nothing was damaged. I anyway never wanted to use them during such a situation (I have a small gas cooker for real emergencies ;-)
Is the grid so unstable in Switzerland that it's worth the extra cost and effort? I can't remember when the last power outage was in Belgium that lasted more than an hour.... (many years ago)
No, it was never unstable. But when I ordered the equipment, they said it is well possible that they will switch power off for 4 hours. Now the winter was mild and it is probably not needed. But what about the next one? BTW: I hope that it was a waste, but I am not sure.
Depending where in Belgium... not so long ago, the Antwerp port area... more than half a day!
The grid can be VERY stable, 99% of the time.
But, that 1 percent is about three and a half days of power outage measured over a period of one year.
And there are MANY factors that can disrupt power on even the most stable grids.
Imagine not being able to drive your car with its full tank of fuel, because the local fuel station ran out of fuel.
If you have solar and batteries, why shouldn't you be able to use them then the grid is down.
As for needing solar AND batteries, it makes long term financial sense depending on the cost of your hardware and then sale and purchase price of electricity.
In Australia, if you sell your solar power back to the grid, you do as at a FRACTION of the price you have to pay to buy it.
So, if you sell 10kW of power to the grid at $0.10 per kW during the day, but have to buy 10kW of power at $0.50 per kW at night, it is costing you $0.40 per kW per day.
On the other hand if you sell nothing and store it in a battery during the day, then don't have to buy any power at night, you aren't paying anything.
And that's a saving of $0.40 per kW per day.
Of course, power usage tends to be lower during the night and solar systems tend to be designed to produce more power then is commonly used, so you'll tend to fully charge the battery and sell off the excess power whilst still not needing to buy and power.
This is when you start making a profit, (or at least recouping your costs).
And if this ALSO means you have power during a grid outage, then that's bonus.
A few years ago my area in Switzerland was without power for several hours, a few ten thousand people were impacted by the failure of a 10kV or 20kV transformer if I remember well. Furthermore, the European grid, including Switzerland is connected together, a large failure in one country can mess up the European grid.
@@doejohn8674 Unfortunately you are right.
Only 4500 CHF for the battery? How did you get such a low price? Searching for LUNA2000 10kWh batteries usually shows almost double the price, which is why I usually don't find these systems worth it.
I explained the reason in my earlier videos. And I ordered last year, February, 24th.
I wonder about the sum current of N of the oven. 3x the same phase differs from 3 different phase. Let's assume that you can drive the oven off-grid anyhow only a short period and your wire diameter is big enough.
All depend on how the oven is connected: Star or delta. If it is star, then you can add the currents. If it is delta, the sum of all phases is 0.
@@AndreasSpiess you miss the point of phase-shifting. In that term 3x the same phase results in a bigger effectiv current as 3 different phases.
@@tituslivius7869 I agree. But this does not matter in my case because the inverter can not produce more than the current of one phase.
@@AndreasSpiess ok, its more a general hint.
Andreas I was waiting for this video since summer when you said you would post this off grid safe idea! Thank you! Any idea if instead of using LUNA batteries, we could use DIY LiPo batteries with Huawei Sun2000 series?
I would not do it because they are high voltage batteries (800V). If you want DIY I would go for a different brand.
Very helpful,,,
Glad to hear that!
Hi Andreas, I love your lessons. The transfer switch has a green connector on A and B side label NO NC AR AN. I didn't find any documentation on aliexpress about them. Please let me know if you have any information about them.
I had to test its behavior out on the bench first to be sure. And it comes with a diagram.
I guess the same idea could also be done with an electric car equipped with vehicle2load. That is usually a few kW output, but not sure if it can be automated and wired to be always ready when the car is plugged in. And another thought. Maybe 3-phase equipment can be wired to have supply only from grid, as that would guarantee no odd behaviour if all phases are shorted. At least heat pumps etc are probably best to isolate like that. Otherwise a very innovative idea!
So far we have no vehicle2load here. So I did not look into this matter...
MANY THANKS to you Andreas! I was always wanting to have an independency option for my PVs and your solution inspired me on a way to go! Besides the Backup Box, I ordered similar automatic electricity switch from AliExpress (I have a monophasic 3.65 kw SUN2000 + 15kw LUNA battery) and spent few days to correctly arrange all wiring with an electrician. One conflict we noticed is that the system refused to work if a General (not the main entrance) switch was ON on the system. It was conflicting with the one switch on the Backup Box (I guess) so we had to turn it off permanently. Finally the system started to work as on your video, what a relief!
Greetings and thanks for sharing :)
Vladimir (Portugal)
Glad it works. Here, unfortunately, I never had the chance to "really" use it because we had enough eletricity during winter ;-)
Hello ANDREAS. Can you share an electrical diagram/scheme with us for your solution on- and off-grid system with Huawei components? Thank you in advance. Great video and keep up the good work.
I thought it was quite evident in the video. I do not have a diagram :-(
If the back up box required double series contacts, shouldn't the change over switch need the same?
Maybe. I thought about it, too. But it has a different function. Only if it would short-circuit both sources something would happen.
Making jokes about violence against men by women = funny
Making jokes about women = misogyny.....
ok got it....
No womam for me, problem solved.
???
Hello Andreas, thank you for making this video! I am about to install a Backup Box, but I came across a technical training video from Huawei th-cam.com/video/aIIgiHcAte8/w-d-xo.html . At time 4:28 they show a diagram that I see that the maximum off grid power that we can get from the Backup Box is only 3300VA. Is that correct in your opinion? For me it looked as if you could power your house without any problems. Thank you!
Yes, this is correct because it only supplies one phase. As said, I do not plan to cook or wash on backup power to conserve valuable battery energy.
A nice solution for already existing system and I'm glad it works for you.
For a bit more than a price of Huawei inverter + backup box you can buy Deye 8kWt hybrid inverter that can provide full-power 3-phase output in off-grid mode. Also Deye inverter supports unbalanced load, so up to 50% of nominal power (4 out of 8 kWt) can go to the load of one phase. Deye uses low voltage 48V batteries which are more universal comparing to proprietary HV batteries. Also Deye has Smart Load output which is designed to prioritize self-consumption over grid export, fir example by dumping excessive solar energy into a hot water tank. Of course that would be a different build, however total price would be similar, wouldn't require external transfer transfer switch, would provide full-power and correct 3-phase output.
It seems that Dye has a good product. I did not know it. However, as I said in my videos, I wanted a high-voltage battery.
And, as an engineer, wasting eletricity to heat water , is a no-go, too. I rather sell it for a cheap price to the community. Electricity is more valuable than 60C water. But charging a car battery would be a perfect application for this function.
3:54
A working internet without a power grid?
What is your DSLAM, your cable provider modem
or your 4/5G BTS in the neighborhood is running without grid on the street?
I do not know if and how long it would work. I had some power outages (some even caused by me) and therefore decided to add a UPS anyway. But I agree, in most cases, the internet will be dead when energy is off.
Wow, it looks like you know how to party! 🎉 I'm so jealous of your fancy setup; it sounds like you'll be set for any power outages! Thanks for sharing such a cool project. I really like how you've put your whole house (almost) on backup mode.
I'm purchasing a 3-phase hybrid inverter (Solis) with backup mode. According to the datasheet, the AC backup port is also 3-phase, which can switch to battery in 40ms in the event of a power outage. I'm not sure how this inverter can be integrated with the whole house. I might need to implement your solution later on.
I also do not know if they are certified to be used on public grids.
Andreas, I am wondering if 3:13 KM3 in the backup box is wired correctly in this schematic. What is the purpose of having the coil from L1 to L2, and the contacts shorting L2 to N? And L3 remains floating? Second contact N to PE is clear to me.
All that seems a very special solution for a special problem, since the SUN2000 can deliver only 1 phase "Ersatzstrom".
This backup box is from Huawei and particularly made for the SUN2000 inverters. Other suppliers seem to sell their solutions. And hopefully, they integrate it one day into the inverter...
Having solar and the grid being down was a major source of consumer outrage in Florida after hurricane Dorian (2019), without power being restore for a week, or more. Personally I'm learning that Swiss have 3-phase power supply to residences. Many regions of world only have 2-phase power. Thanks for sharing your learnings.
In Florida, my system would probably be more valuable ;-) I was there after a Hurricane and saw what it did. Not nice!
In Europe, quite a few countries run 3 phases to residential buildings.
does the LUNSA2000 converter recharge the batteries (during sunshine of course) while it is operating in "off-grid" mode?
Yes, the SUN2000 charges the LUNA2000 battery if it has enough energy
Maybe I misunderstood something... the SUN2000 inverter runs 3-phase when the grid is connected, but only 1 phase in backup mode? Or is there a second inverter for the grid-tie operation? This is one case where I'm glad we split one phase here in the US... much simpler household electrics! 👍
Yes, the SUN2000 inverter runs 3-phase when the grid is connected, but only 1 phase in backup mode (explanation in an earlier video). This is the reason for my "hack".
Hmm... why switching to backup power took so long? I have a similar Chinese 4P switch (branded GEYA) and the transition between sources is nearly seamless
Because the law says we must wait with starting the off-grid mode of the inverter till the grid is disconnected. That is why the Backup box does this timing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Star connected motors supplied from 1 phase will overheat immediately, the currents will be the LRA (Locked Rotor Amperage) and the system will overload the inverter 🤔 ....... Star connected resistive loads can "overload" the neutral wire if they are too high, but if they are small loads I do not see that much problem
The problem with star motors is well possible. I do no more remember these topics from my EE studies ;-)
Greetings from the other side of switzerland. I now have the same setup as you with one exception, I have a manual transfer switch from ABB. My power outage test was together with the electrician inspector. Funny thing was that the luna was still charging during the test because the sun was shining and there was plenty of power available from the pv. How much do you spare for power outage? I configured 20% or 3kWh.
For the moment I have 95 and 10% as limits. But mainly because I want to extend the life of the battery. I only will change it when I see something changing in the overall situation of our grid.
BTW: We already had an outage when I was not at home. My wife did not know that there was one ;-)
Nice hack. However I still would try to have priority loads on separate line/phase. Because you know... power of habits. Especially if you don't have any constant "alarm"/indicator that grid is off.
With out 10kWh battery and solar charging also in off-grid mode we could live our life off-grid during a big part of the year. So it is not too critical.
From my experience with my install. Basically the same as yours without the transfer switch; the backup output from the backup box is always powered; even when the grid is up.
In my case (three phases), this would give a big short-circuit. So you are lucky you can do it without transfer switch.
Hello Andreas, thank you for your interesting videos. I have one question about the automatic transfer switch. If the grid is switched back on in case after a blackout, it is not guaranteed that voltage/frequency are 100% stable. Wouldn't it make sense to switch back to the grid after a while? If you switch back too early you could damage your devices with under/over voltage. I see advantages here with the manual switch. Many greetings!
You are right, it could make sense to wait. But I compared it with the "normal" situation where my devices are directly connected to the grid. Then, they also would get all the instabilities.
Hi. Do you have a link for the 10 kWh battery at this very interesting price that you showed (4501 CHF) ?
It is a standard Huawei LUNA2000. But I fear it is more expensive now (as everything solar).
Be aware of those chinese ATS. I know mant people reporting reliability issues using it. Thanks for your amazing work making these videos
Others said the same. I got a 3 phase model instead of one with 4 and Aliexpress refunded the whole amount. So I will do some reliability tests on my bench...
ha ha ha - not only a guru but also an inventor: @2:18 - "complicativness - Did you mean: complications? - It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search" ;-)
Maybe a new word? Complicatedness is explained in my year-end video ;-)
Very interesting solution. Here in Italy, residential customers are usually suplied with single phase 230VAC, so this type of setup would be even simpler to adopt.
Indeed, single phase systems are simpler in many respects.
Thank you very much for that super hack :) but would be possible to get more detailed your connection drawing ? Or maybe even video ?
I do not plan a next video and think, an electrician should be able to draw the needed diagram.
Would I be correct that in the UK implementation of this type of redundancy would be less complex due to the UK domestic supply being single phase ?
All system components are still needed. Just only for a single phase (which saves quite some relays and fuses).