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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มี.ค. 2024
- ''Christianity is outdated. A cultural relic from a less enlightened time. Superstition for the masses - not the kind of thing intelligent people believe in nowadays.'
That's the general message New Atheism put out into the world in the noughties. And for a while it felt like Dawkins and Hitchens and co might have had the last word. In Alastair Campbell's memorable phrase, it seemed as though the UK at large 'didn't do God' any more.
And yet. Over the last few years, something's started to shift. Podcaster and author Justin Brierley has been hosting high-profile debates between Christians, atheists, and agnostics for nearly two decades, and in that time he's seen the conversation change. A new set of so-called secular thinkers are turning away from the materialist non-story of reality and reconsidering how the Christian story speaks to today’s meaning crisis.
In this live episode, hosts Paul Woolley and Grace Fielding chat to Justin and Tom Holland, author of the bestselling book 'Dominion' and host of the hugely popular podcast 'The Rest is History'. Together, they explore why new atheism is growing old and the Christian view of reality is making a comeback.
I teach the history of religion at a Canadian university and have done so for 20 years now - 20 years ago I always had a contingent who were openly hostile to religion. Today, another generation are curious at least. In one course I teach, I have them attend a worship service and report on it -many choose a Christian church because that's where their grandparents attend. They are all surprised by how friendly everybody is.
That’s such a cool story. Reminds me of that line from Chesterton where he says that rediscovering his Catholic faith was like a lost voyager leaving England only to return and find it so mysterious. That’s what secular westerners who don’t know any better are like with Christianity rather than their parents who were open rebels
The history of religion is of interest to both believers and non-believers.
It's a digital counter-Reformation against the emerging 'Triumph of the Woke'.
😂😂
There is no love like Christian love. Right now, it's suck you in love. Later, it's less friendly, it's the keep you in line kind of love.
The new generation have all been taught by social media, TV, and Hollywood that Christians are either nutters or white suprem*cists. Then they go to a church and find out it's just the middle-aged lady from down the street, the man who runs the autoglass shop, or the IT guy from work.
The testimony Tom shared was very special and moving. Thank you for sharing those moments where God is working and speaking in your life.
True.
I also came to Christ the same way. Not the same story/image, but the same weird unusual god providence way.
Pray for him for exiting journey to come. 🙏
@Jocky8807 great to hear and thanks for sharing!
I'm with Tom. Let's re-embrace the weird bits of Christianity. Inspired by the Missionaries of Charity, I have started a weekly holy hour at my local church. No empirical evidence, but an hour in front of the Eucharist has been incredibly beneficial.
Better to stick to Jesus and the gospel as found in the Bible.
@@DougGroothuisStill fighting Rome, eh Prot?
Stoicism is better.
@Philognosis1 Gregory Nazanzan, fourth century rhetorician who studied for 10 years in Athens, used stoic methods and found a synthesis of Christian belief with classical culture, which he used to craft insights that influenced the way the Christian Church understood itself and its faith.
My wife and I have left modern performance related Christianity. We are seeking to bless our community and witness to those who have never heard the gospel.
The gospel does not demand ‘performance’ but it does demand worship and liturgy.
We worship God the reason for being living and following the WAY that Jesus showed us. Love service sacrifice not O.T temple service. Genuine relationship in loving God not necessarily religious rites!
@@henrieecen2938 if you think Christianity doesn't involve religious rites, then you haven't read the gospel either lol.
Devout, Christian from SOUTH Africa.. Absolutely GOBSMACKED and Heart BROKEN to see How The U.K is NOT a Christian Country, AND People have FORGOTTEN about GOD! 😢🙏🏻🎉🙏🏻✝️
To right. a god you can't see And can't do anything to help you when your alive. But helps you when you die. Sounds like something is wrong somewhere
@@user-mj5bl5dy1b what it sounds like is, you don't know what you're talking about, and so can't meaningfully critique it.
@@user-mj5bl5dy1b
I believe, help my unbelief.
If you are serious, John, I would begin by helping you unbelieve the unreasonable assumption that the obvious evidence for God in the fine tuning of the universe, for example, can be ignored. Or that all the available evidence for the resurrection of the Christ can similarly be dismissed. And then I would test the genuine call of Jesus to say that all who sincerely come to Him He will in no way cast out. I suggest you do that by asking Him, 'Jesus, If you are who you say you are (the perfect representation of God in human form) then please reveal yourself to me'. I am also praying that for you.God bless you.
God knows your heart, and SOUL .. he hears and sees you! God knew you, before you were born!
God will never leave you, or Forsake you.. If you able to read a New Testament Bible. Book Start with John. A NIV or English standard.. Bible.. Reach out to a Protestant- Solid Bible Believing Church!
The Holy Spirit will anoint you and Comfort you! Will pray For YOU! ✝️
Why isn't God helping *everyone's* unbelief, given that it costs him nothing? Sounds like you want to feel special.
@@AtheismActuallySince you've never bothered to look into the actual theology of these things you just look silly saying stuff like this. Humble yourself. Even if you were still an atheist afterwards you at least would be able to make more useful arguments against what people actually believe.
I definitely agree that God has a great sense of humour! He amazes you, he surprises you, he often chuckles with you or cares for you in the most tender ways..... but you can know it only when you have your ears, eyes and mind open.
This conversation would dovetail nicely with the Symbolic World festival recently organised by Jonathan Pageau and alll those podcasts around that movement (mainly Eastern Orthodox).
Wonderful talk! Thank you. I am a mixed-race woman who reverted to the Roman Catholic Church these last 4 years, and a massive fan of Jordan Peterson. When I saw him on his last tour here out in Northern California there were a lot of women in attendance!
The number of adults undergoing the RCIA programme in France is up again this year. In other words, there are increasing conversions to Catholicism in secular France.
That's so great to hear! I live in secular Australia and in my local small Catholic parish we had 2 adults being baptized on this Easter Vigil - one of them being 18 years old. 🙂
Oh! Praise the Lord! Miracles, how wonderful!You are blessed Tom
Tom Holland gave an amazing testimony of supernatural healing which was almost brushed aside.However, he is right, it is the supernatural. (the signs and wonders) which converted people in the early church and will convert these new generations in the 21st Century. Tom is also right - there are 'pearls of wisdom' in many religions and philosophies - but he has not yet understood that there is one 'Pearl of Great Price' - the gateway to The Kingdom of Heaven.
Gateway to heaven is in the here and now, realizing the Christ within. Pearl being a metaphor. Only then we begin to live the abundant life Jesus spoke off. After death? Faith Hope and God's promises sustains us!
I enjoined this immensely. Tom’s description of his transcendent experiences reminds me a lot of those experiences written about Catholic mystics. What an inspiring conversation.
I understood that Tom Holland plans to write a book on the 60s. I do hope it is published while there are still some who were there to read it! Hurry up please!
Thanks a million for hosting this talk, really appreciated and enjoyed it.
It is. It is happening all around us. Many young people are turning back to Christ.
And older people too. I see many who are in their 50s - both men and women.
This is such an excellent talk. Absolutely heartwarming.
Hail Mary full of grace! Blessed are you among women! And blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! 💚
Once you open your heart to the Mother of Christ, your life will change forever!
Mary points us to Christ. She told the servants at the wedding of Cana to “Do what He tells you to do “. So the Scriptures lay out the words of Christ and what He has told us.
“Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” St Jerome
@@Apriluser mere awareness of scripture is also problematic... which is why you call upon the words of a saint to endorse the scripture. ; + )
Why assume that the opposite of ignorance of scripture in this context would simply mean awareness?
Love these two. I’m just about making the leap from atheist to Catholic and I think the big challenge is that the weirdness they’re talking about doesn’t just include the mysticism and spirituality, but it has to include the prohibitions and sexual ethics which are so at odds with the culture… even the moderates in the culture.
Yeah the craziest part of being a Catholic is to just realize the “moderates” are just the radicals going slower and two sides of the same liberal modern project. Would recommend finding a good community where the standards are just expected it makes it much easier to hold them when a group can back you up
I'm a new Catholic convert. I wish I could describe the joy, the peace, and the indescribable sense of belonging I feel. Christ and his Church are truly the 'fulfillment of all desire'. I went from a life of despair, anxiety and depression to a life where I literally am praising God as soon as I wake until I fall asleep. A very close friend of mine will also be confirmed into the Church this Easter. She can say the same. I don't need to encourage you to take the step because everyone who opens their heart to the Catholic Church ends up in her embrace. All I can say is welcome in advance ;)
If you're having trouble with the sexual ethics side, might I recommend Theology of the Body's playlist called The Good News About Sex and Marriage. It will take a little bit to watch it through from the beginning, but it definitely helped me to understand the "why" behind the rules.
@@kristengallant8300 thank you. I happened upon the ToB stuff last week and it’s great!
Tom Holland, I would recommend Eternity in Their Hearts which documents belief all over the world in “pagan” tribes even before the missionaries arrived.
I love Tom Holland and Justin
Good good talk! Thank you for the video . Def miss Justin on unbelievable !
Tony Benn was always saying that his mother taught him that the Bible was about the conflict between the kings who had power and the prophets who teach righteousness. ''She taught me to always be on the side of the prophets and it's got me into a lot of trouble''
The prophets always got into a lot of trouble. Jesus, for example.
Nothing less than the salvation of every human being, the reconciliation of them with each other, and the restoration of their original goodness, created in the divine image, can justify the sufferings and sadness that fill human history. Nothing less can vindicate the love and goodness of God. I am convinced of this. All will be made well. All.
Salvation from what? Eternal punishment for finite sins? What about children who die before being able to understand the Gospel? God is a monstrous abuser.
@@StudentDad-mc3pu
//Salvation from what?//
Salvation from a life lived outside the flow of Love.
//Eternal punishment for finite sins?//
I do not believe such a thing exist, as there would be no justice or love in that.
//What about children who die before being able to understand the Gospel?//
I would go one or two further and ask: what about people who lived before the Gospel? what about people alive today who live in an area the Gospel has yet to be preached?
//God is a monstrous abuser.//
If there were a God that would punish anyone eternally, for any reason, then yes, that God would be a monstrous abuser. I agree.
Lucky for everyone...God is like Jesus, God has always been like Jesus, there has never been a time when God wasn't like Jesus. We haven't always known this, but due to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus...Now We Do!
@@StudentDad-mc3pucringe and lame
All children will go directly to heaven, and those peoples that never had a chance to hear the gospel of Christ. Children are alive in Christ.
@@forreals373 Nonsense
Really fascinating conversation. Justin was especially profound. Thank you 🙏
Thank you for attending unto our OWN!
Any chance you might piss off and stop bombarding the comments section with your nonsensical drivel.
I also believe this phenomena of a return is also linked to the collapse of the Liberal order, neo and con akimbo, has forced the issue of the transcendent; if so
it may all have been worth it.
I don't necessarily think we need a rebirth of god but, we certainly need a rebirth of a spirituality that seeks the best in ourselves. On so many levels we are living in such vulgar times, it is destroying us.
I totally agree with Tom in his sharing about Mary’s intervention and how he finds it in humorous way. God works in many different even in crooked ways. When God touches people he does it with an invitation to “ come and follow me”. Tom, your book” Dominion” is God’s work through you. You are inspiring and touching hundreds of people in the internet.
Jesus warned: DECEPTION would grow large; many will be DECEIVED. This conversation reinforces the warning of Jesus as an increasing reality.
We are facing the shattering of the belief in the Revealed Word of God (both Jesus and the Bible).
This might upset some, but I can assure you that at times, God roars with laughter, and then again, he can kick butt too. Believe his word, he means it!
22:06 yeah, this is basically my observation, too.
What Tom told about his experiences - in Sinjahr Iraq, in that destroyed Armenian church which was just round the corner from where people were literally crucified some while before this visit - and then later, Tom's ailment, and his prayer in that other special church (St Bartholomew) - our Lord's Mother's possible intervention, the blessings that followed -
how deeply moving !!
(I was raised, and have always been a Protestant -
but I do have some RomanCatholic heroes, like for example Pope Francis and the Franciscan teacher and priest, Richard Röhr.❤😊)
Excellent questions from the audience--some exactly what I would've asked, and then a couple of my own:
1. How much evidence is there for a genuine awakening, or at least the beginning of one?
2. Among which groups is this happening?
3. Is this taking place in other Western countries?
4. How does this differ from other "revivals?" Prayer was a catalyst in earlier awakenings, I think.
I'm 70 and remember the Jesus Revolution on the West Coast in the 1970''s, the charismatic renewal, the Vineyard movement. This seems different. It reminds me of Jesus' parable of the new wine. Those of us who are older should be open to the fact that this move may not look like what we recall. We should be ready to serve as mentors.
Hi! I was thinking that this phenomenon reminds me of the parable Jesus told of the mustard seed, and these thinkers are (rightly) pointing out, "Well, would you look at that tree!"
I totally agree that older Christians have a job to do. I'm 64 myself and that idea is terrifying and exhilarating at the same time to me, I think PRAY above all else and keep in mind that our Lord has NEVER looked the way the world thinks He should.
My eldest brother was a part of "the Jesus movement" (just the Lord being the Lord, as far as I'm concerned) and came to the East coast to witness to all the rest of his earthly family. Just wanted to say "hello" and God Bless. :)
@@danatowne5498 God bless you as well as we embark on new adventures. I've been watching videos from Glen Scrivner, Tom Holland and Justin Brierly. So fascinating and encouraging! I particularly liked Justin's interview with the storyteller and mythologist Martin Shaw. He was the one urging christians in the church who are over 60 to be open and ready to serve as God does a new thing in the church.
@@HiHoSilvey , I was going to say... have you heard of Martin Shaw? What he said felt like it came from Jesus to me. If I can bestow that kind of encouragement on believers (and on non-believers to "come and see") I will be one happy senior! :)
Seriously... I think if we can just try to understand - because it is all around us - God is the One that builds. Praise God. Anyway, that is why I love listening to the same people you mentioned. I have not heard of Glen Scrivner before so thank you for the tip!
I’m all for picking out the best bits. How do we do that?
the Australian singer must be Nick Cave !
Haha. Well spotted. More than likely 👍
@@crushtheserpent not surprising tbh. He gives the impression of someone with spiritual depth
Truth will always win out, in the relatively short term, and of course, ultimately.
I've been a Christian in UK (off and on) for aboutv50 years. What was striking as a new Christian was how much attention was devoted by church leaders to (1) 2nd coming of Christ and (2) church revival. Just one point of order in particular. Tom Holland is right: belief in God in not the same as belief in Christianity.
If I hadn’t had an experience and encounter with Christ, I would have never become a Christian after over trying 10 different religions/ cults and philosophies. I don’t want reason with Jesus, I want to live FROM His Love, not for Jesus!
Current young people in my experience, compared to my generation (I'm 64), are far more open to religion. The discussion needs to include the 'spiritual but not religious' option, not just numbers in buildings.
The guts of apologetics was mostly ethical. The intellectual stuff wasn't what it was about for most people (uni professors - Dawkins, Harris et al aren't most people).
people make the mistake of taking church attendance data as indication that christianity is still in decline. when in fact all it shows, is that people have lost faith in the main churches for various reasons, and what is happening, is we have gone right back to the beginning of Christianity and praying at home. I am one of them.I believe in God, i Believe in Jesus, but i believe the church in England at least, have lost their way.
Thank you for all that you shared. Healing is part and parcel of God’s plan for man. A way out of our distresses. That was part of Jesus’s purpose.
I have come to my Catholic faith. So long we have learned that Christianity oppresses women. This is so off. I married someone from a non-Western culture. I was always puzzled about how I was treated until older men from that background explained women of the youngest sons are not well treated. Jesus being born of a woman, women as followers, and appearing before women after rising from the dead gave status to women absent elsewhere in the world. Nuclear families where a man, even if wealthy, is to have only one wife elevated women's status. To hear the likes of women, such as the NPR head, denigrate the West will do damage to us in the end if our culture fails. And it will be through her secular narcissism.
Extraordinary that neither of these men seems to have any knowledge of Biblical textual criticism and how these myths emerged.
Perhaps because, unlike you, they can distinguish between myth and history?
Great discussion. I wonder if there may be something Tom needs to embrace in Jesus' call to 'become like little children' in spirit... a child who receives the kind of 'answer' he apparently received in his healing, wouldn't think it 'arrogant' to feel his or her request had been granted, but just kind of explode with humble gratitude and joy. Something for us all in that?
In the last year, I have said. It will not be too long, and it will be "cool" or trendy for a person to claim to be Christian. Like the tattoo trend or the rend to have holes in your jeans.
It's interesting that it could actually happen
Even though knowing no exalting nor boasting here!
No Tom we must reason our hope, and as faith is the substance of hope, we must reason our faith. Do not trust in feelings or apparitions, if you also cannot reason your faith.
Romans 10:17
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 1:17
“For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Surely Queen Elizabeth II was a hugely influential person in her servant reign and her open faith.
Thank you!
Right I’m an hour in these are my thoughts.
When these two have finished deliberating (blabbering) it’s a if we look around and find ourselves living in a Muslim country.
This seems like meek and mild pluralism. Tom likes his presents but hasn’t written a thank you note to Santa. Jesus Christ isn’t exclusive for him so needn’t be for others. Indeed I’m not sure if he feels he has any need of saving.. Christian faith is just an option but there are plenty of others on the table..indeed Mary can step in when we can’t pray to God. The largeness that God can choose any way to act hasn’t occurred to him? I’ve heard him speak before very compellingly but he looks fizzled out here.
For Justin faith is about having doubts and using your imagination? He likes to imply that’s it’s his subjective faith that makes him think like this but hopefully it’s in The objective God?
And the fact someone is dabbling with unChristian spiritual practice isn’t a good sign that people are looking for spirituality in their lives in itself. That can’t be a responsible attitude to others finding Christ.
For myself the reality of God (and my need of God) seems more real than my own existence.
We really need to toughen up and end this variety of weak Christian intellectual discourse if we want to win the battle of souls the west and others nations
Intent, based, foundation, and where your Treasures is there your hearts will be also. Will be determined. Offsprings Perish will say save us father of the Living upon all thy Vineyards!
It was always easier to blame bad actors or structural dynamics without destroying or beiing so antithetical about enriching,lines of thought energetic wholistic cosmos learning and discovery anyways.. orientation and direction is key to such things
I would like to hear more from Tom and less from Justin, please!
"Christianity" has the significant advantage of being true... which is a pretty great reason it will win the day when the day is done...
Are churches in England peopled by persons of Nigerian and West Indian descent, let alone the Malabar Christians, fervent about Jesus?
@1:12 👍
@1:18:00
This missed the deeper truth. Reality *is* a miracle we're just so spoiled and bored with (often) we fail to recognize it in our western opulence.
Imagination has a role, if only to take us beyond the idolatry of our own understanding... It's not an imaginative core, it's shedding our false imagination of us in relation to God & His Creation.
It is Truth, reason & reality & the possibilities with Him.
22:00 Why would anyone be interested in religion if you didn't take the supernatural seriously? So obviously but so counter-cultural at the same time
Indeed. The supernatural is material to the Near Eastern religion: Christianity.
Not according to the PRRI study that was just released today (March 27, 2024)
Thanks for confirming this and the truth of Jesus' predictions...Have a good weekend sir...
@@in_paradiso_58 Data don't lie :)
The people that I see coming to or coming back to Christianity are not the ones who 'take the supernatural seriously' as in angels and miracles, as Tom Holland said. Instead its the ones who want a rational intellectual approach to God and the Bible. Educated people are interested in the concept of intelligent design. We don't want the floof and woo-woo. We don't want the saints and the drama. We want to learn about the Christian worldview, Christian apologetics, the history of the Bible, and we want academic, scholarly, well-educated people teaching these things.
Holland's notions of "superstition" and "God" need to be interrogated.
Perhaps a follow up with John Milbank, Rowan Williams and David Bentley Hart?
If Justin's thesis is correct, then it raises problems: not least of which is "What KIND of Christianity does this 're-birth' envisage as taking place?" We cannot ignore all of the biblical and Christological scholarship which has taken place over the past century-and-a-half: and especially not the 'Jesus scholarship' which has been undertaken by JEWS, themselves (for example, by Paula Fredriksen and Daniel Boyarin). Awareness of such scholarship may act as a preventative to a form of 'Islamic' (fundamentalist) Christianity becoming the norm; whereby 'scripture' is placed outside of the more general term 'ancient documents', and is given an 'authority' which is even able to circumscribe the very God it is intended to help reveal. As a seventy-one-year-old homosexual Christian, who has had the privilege of sharing over forty years with a gentle male atheist, I remember the "Kill a Queer for Christ" posters flaunted by some 'Christians', weaponising our scriptures in the Islamic way. Perhaps there are fewer of them around today: but +Justin Welby's accommodation with Government during the 'covid' fake pandemic, demonstrates that some are ready to 'turn tyrant' at a moment's notice; rather than paying attention to the God who is revealed in Jesus of Nazareth (Teaching and Person). Always beware of the 'enthusiast'. It is one thing to be convinced that 'God was in Christ'; and another to consider that this gives you a right to persecute others on the 'authority' of the bible.
Tom, in one of your clips, I believe it was this one, you said (my rendition of your statement) of your faith, sometimes you feel it alive and real, other times, you feel we are all “just animals …” (in other words, not made with the value one would have if made in the image of God) …
The latter of your said emotions sounds like the fruit of an attack of the enemy of your soul - the devil.
Jesus spoke to it in John 10:10 in saying, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”
What he comes “to steal and kill and destroy” is our faith. Our fundamental belief Jesus is. Moreover, is who and what he said he was. And did, what Paul states he did for us. As you so passionately speak of in speaking of Jesus’ death on the cross.
That attack of the one that comes “to steal and kill and destroy” is what caused, while Jesus was before the high priest, being condemned, spit upon, and buffeted; when “one of the maids of the high priest” identified Peter as being one of Jesus’ followers, Peter declared, “I know not this man” (Mark 14: 71).
As said, it is our basic faith in Jesus the devil comes to “steal and kill and destroy.” And be assured, come he does.
You and yours are in my prayers.
What is thy feet resting upon dry grounds. GROUNDED? What is who is sitteth upon many trying to reach "Who's height"? Offsprings preserve from Thee all will say, look!
Beloved what that it takes? If Arrogance it takes! Yet, knows WHO?
Yes Tom, you're right, it does seem conceited. Curious that Justin Brierly mentions Ukraine, considering the actions of the Russian Orthodox Church. Moreover, the small segment of contemporary Christianity that is growing in the West has evolved into a consumerist, transactional faith, individualistic, superficial with a fair number of hucksters and conmen.
One book….45,000 denominations globally.Each claiming they are the true church. Yet Jesus said that the whole essence of scripture is summed up in how we treat each other, Matt 7:12.
Perhaps the total theological structure is to be swept away so that the one principle is dominant.
Before ye all are born. Many old minds pride hindering! Look at me ! Look at me! Look at me! Glory and honor and praise belongs unto our club! Creation who ye will say "WHO "i" AM"? None existence in front of Thee!
Well would you look at that.
WHY on earth is that woman reading prompts off an Ipad?
i think questions submitted to a website or whatever
Why is everyone seemingly oblivious of the elephant in the room here??? FAITH (in the Heb 11 sense) is absolutely NOTHING like a matter of ‘mere belief’ as Brierly and everyone else here suggest!!! FAITH is a supernatural endowment imputed by GOD unto His own (Eph 2:8,9)!
The kind of ‘faith’ you’re talking about (as some kind of intellective or emotive commitment to the ‘Christian idea’) was contemptuously rejected by Christ (Mat 7:21) and repudiated by the apostle Paul as a WORK (Rom 9:16)
What you’re suggesting here - ‘bootstrap salvation’, only impugns salvation as a sovereign act of grace by God! As with his own PHYSICAL birth, it is NOT within the capacity of man to bring about his own SPIRITUAL birth (Luk 18:27)!
Ultimately… “It is the SPIRIT OF GOD who gives life - the flesh is able for nothing” (Jhn 6:63)!
I am a Christian, NOT because I believe… rather, because I am a Christian, I believe! BIIIIIIIIG difference! Faith is the CONSEQUENCE of having been born again - it is NOT CONDITIONAL thereto!
In short, FAITH is nothing less than PROPOSITIONAL KNOWLEDGE…
I understand completely why there is an instinctive hankering after the things of God by those who seek after TRUE Truth (with a capital ‘T’)… confronted by the fact that “these things are hard to understand” (Jhn 6:60), many followers of Jesus deserted him (Jhn 6:66), but when Jesus asked of his TRUE disciples (chosen by HIM - they did not choose Jesus - Jhn 6:70) if they too would be deserting him, their response was a resigning, “Lord, to whom shall we go?” (Jhn 6:68)
The kind of ‘faith’ you are talking about only invites those dreaded words of Jesus… “Get away from me - I never knew you as one of my own” (Mat 7:21)
But this is what you get when you have ultracrepidarians opine about matters they know absolutely nothing about…
Yes.
I think for some, the intellectualised approach gets them over the first hurdle, that is their pride and ignorance. This opens them in a way they were not before, but intellectual understanding is not enough. It is then for the Spirit to work faith.
I know this from personal experience as I have had and still have a very intellectualised valuation of Christianity. I believe it in principle. But, without Faith, this tends to lead one to a kind of agnostic Deism and makes it hard to live the faith in a real and true way.
Also, I think some are ultimately hampered by their desire to understand and know and to explain. It is of value to a point, and especially in these times where many devalue Christianity because they think it's outdated/boring/nonsense/stupid etc, it is valuable to reappraisal. Especially for those who may of once derided it - they need to be brought into the light to see. But, ultimately, it is faith and reason, not reason alone, which matters. You cannot rationalise the faith, though you can only in degrees as through a glass darkly.
@@MidnightIsolde Thank you far a thoughtful and carefully considered comment - a rare thing!
As a Christian schooled in epistemology (Cornelius van Til & Greg Bahnsen), I have wrestled for far too long over the (apparent) tension between ‘reason’ and ‘faith’, and it was only after a great deal of prayer and much deliberation that I came to realise that the ‘problem’ was not a problem at all - it was entirely artificial, predicated on an unBiblical view of faith (in the Heb 11 sense) and an understanding of ‘reasoning’ that is ‘after the Fool’ (meant in the Biblical sense), rather than reasoning that is ‘after God’…
Christian apologists such as William Lane Craig, Hugh Ross, John Lennox and others have gone to great lengths to try and prove that the Christian faith is ‘reasonable’… that they are not guilty of making a ‘blind faith’ commitment to the things of God (‘Fideism’) (which would only render their Christian commitment to be ‘unreasonable’)
But here’s the thing… their efforts only subordinate the sovereignty of God to the ‘sovereignty of man’!
So, after nearly 22 years of research and study am I now committing the results to a book which will hopefully be completed by year’s end… (my longsuffering wife maintains that, because this is my God-directed purpose in life and ‘cause it’s taken so long to complete, I’m going to live forever!)
@@osks From what I have heard in some discourses by William Lane Craig and John Lennox, they do agree that it is through the inner witness of the Holy Spirit that we know Christianity to be true and that that witness is sufficient. They also speak of the role of the Holy Spirit in regeneration and the need for people to submit to the Lordship of Christ.
I think that they see the presentation of supporting evidence as a part of their ministry to the sceptic. I do not know what you think of that approach in such a context; however, their perspective is broader that that.
The elephant in the room: the "good news" comes across as a word salad to the average guy in the street. Typically it is formulated around a notion of atonement that required Jesus to die to save us from our sin, with a bit of God is all-loving and all-merciful thrown into the mix. The real good news is that Christ's death-resurrection affirms that it is not God who is dead, but nihilism! Our earthly lives have a God-willed purpose and a heavenly destiny. We are called to collectively build a better world for God's children and we are destined for a blissful life with God when we shed this mortal coil.
😂
33:48
God reveals Himself in many different ways not normal by your culture.
I'd humbly like to suggest to Tom Holland that the question, as an historian, he needs to consider is did Jesus rise from the dead? If he did then making the leap to faith is a no brainier. If he didn't, move on.
Speaking of young men and their attraction to spiritual "pursuits," look how many flocked in to serve "isis", not the goddess Isis, mind you, but maybe this was, in part, on behalf of some kind of identity crisis?
Are we taking the God of the Bible, ... The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit ...God ?
Let's *not conflate a wave of spirituality that includes worship of Satan with a rebirth of belief in the God.
The organized churches ...all of them... have failed the Mission of Christ and betrayed Christ's call for humans to "Follow Me."
Students from this generation! How and many deep questions concerning? Why ye EXIST in front of WHO?
Jesus of Nazareth "was effectively a virgin for his whole life"? [01:09] Really? This is where Evangelical scriptural literalists go awry: and place their feelings/prejudices concerning sex, before the evidence. In a society where 'marriage' was the norm, if Jesus had been 'celibate', do you not imagine that Paul, or one of the Gospel-writers would have drawn our attention to this? Notice how Mary of Magdala, a rich influential woman associate of Jesus, was deliberately conflated - by the male Church - with the 'city woman' who used her 'sex ointment' to cleanse Jesus' feet. Both use ointment: one for embalming, the other from sheer penitential love.
The opposite of 'bad' is not 'interesting.'
Just ask me about God
God is real. Just start with that.......👍
Seeing is believing. Unless people "see" G-d because of holy acts, there is no reason to believe. Do a holy act today ;-)
Why G-d instead of God?
@@StoaoftheSouth The miracle of not being stuck with only capital letters and no punctuation (as 1000 years ago). G-d, God and god don't mean the same things.
@@williambranch4283 So, why G-d not God
@@StoaoftheSouth Glad you asked ;-) "god/gods" = nature gods of polytheism and materialism ... God = God of a particular monotheistic religion, say Islam etc ... G-d = the ineffable God beyond all religions.
@@williambranch4283 Is G-d as you use the term the same as Yahweh, the God of Israel?
Nor look what is made just for thee all! Arrogance come here! Do ye exist in front? No! Why? Many wise looking for! Why?
Yes 'spring clean' Christianity by exposing false teaching, and find one truth for righteousness, this is urgent. I have a Ytube videos 'Myths in so-called Christianity' for NT truth.
Now why ye EXIST creation in front? Of Who?
Students how can even Arrogance exist in front?
I like Tom a lot, but I think he is probably more arrogant as an agnostic than he’d be as a Christian. He believes he’s right. He won’t convert. Too much of a materialist. It would be awesome for him to talk more to recent converts like Paul kingsnorth or Martin Shaw, but you can tell by his facial gestures during this talk that Christian belief is just too far into lala land. His qualms are the common, and still somewhat legitimate, claims that to propel one religion over another is just not fair. But I hope his next book is on Luther! :)
He even enjoys attending a church. It's sad that he is so close, but pride still seems to be stopping him.
Rubbish. Anyone that has had an encounter with Mary as he had (twice!) is on a countdown to conversion. You can tell by the way he wistfully told the story that's the case. But you would need to have had experienced that yourself to understand.
No, we are not!
Who is ‘we’? You got a mouse in your pocket?
@@ClayB05 haha 👍
th-cam.com/video/iUBNTNiqn60/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Psds4W2T-y6egw_B
If only Jesus' prayer ( ...Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one - John 17:11) were on all of our hearts. The divide would cease and understanding increase. Even though God uses it all.
Tom would do well dwelling into Catholicism.
Which God are we talking about ? There are lots to choose from.....and most of them come with a magic book with all the rules and explanations....
The greatest God conceivable.
yes, Tom mentioned that. And it has been an ongoing discussion in theology from the earliest days - see Romans and Acts
The Only GOD capable of being obvious and unobvious at the same time...(i'm sure you can work that out)...Nice try at muddying the waters, big fail to the enlightened in Christ...Peace...
@atticusboman4444 So, if God is the very act of existence, and I have some existence, I am an embodiment of existence, and thus, of God. All of existence is an embodiment of God and is God.
My problem with Christianity is in the way they express the uniqueness of Jesus of Nazareth. Is he unique? Yes. Does he occupy a status different from you and me that is unattainable to either of us? I find that thought blasphemous and in contradiction to the logical chain you laid out.
It is time for religion to be disposed of.....enough of myths and pie in the sky.....
😂
Sorry to put a dampener on things, but Tom Holland has not done nearly enough to demonstrate that our values are shaped by Christianity, rather than being an innate part of human nature. He specialises in classical culture, and, sure, in comparison to the pre-Christian Romans, it’s a big improvement. But, there is the fact that the Romans were probably suffering en masse from lead poisoning from their oh-so-ingenious, but, alas, lead plumbing. And, anyway, he barely touched on eastern cultures that have engendered every bit as humble, open and generous teachings. Daoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, not to mention ancient North American ‘Indian’ cultures. Buddha went further than Christianity, and extended the requirement for benevolence toward all creatures, and you only have to watch a skilled horse whisperer or modern dog trainer do their thing to appreciate that gentleness, kindness and trust work just as well with animals as humans. I appreciate that people are beginning to worry about the rise of Islam within our own societies, but I don’t see a retreat into superstition, for it’s ability to form a tribe equal to the threat, as a sensible way to go. It is looking like the dominance of Islam within the next couple of generations is inevitable. All the more necessary that we embrace the values of the enlightenment - rationality, skeptical thought and science - and give the young people of Islam something they might not want to lose, rather than put them in the position of replacing one set of nonsense with another set of nonsense, which they will then enforce upon us in a way, our own nonsense being our indulgence more than actual belief, we have not enforced for a very long time. There is much to lose if we get this wrong
I'm not entirely sure one couldn't rebuff your examples with the same retort you gave regarding the Romans: societies that for long stretches of time that were plagued by war, disease, malnutrition, and all kinds of evils that are quite anti-human in their outlook. Christianity does teach that we should be benevolent towards all of God's creatures (Francis of Assisi is a good example of someone who lived that out in his calling), and that we should do that under the obligation we have as stewards of the world, rather than an injunction towards moral betterment. In fact, I don't think any of the systems can really give foundational reasons for why you should be moral/strive for enlightenment in the first place. There's a lot there about avoiding suffering, but there's not really much there to convince someone who doesn't mind the suffering for themselves or likes to inflict suffering on others. And finally, all of those systems are even more superstitious than what you would find in the West. To pretend that other spiritual or supernatural teachings are any more rationalistic than what can be found in Christianity shows ignorance of the Christian religion more than anything else (particularly considering that the consistent complaint of the Eastern Orthodox Church is that Western Christianity is too rational).
I think ultimately you are missing the point about why there is more interest in religion now. The Enlightenment project, or at least some of the more radical versions of that, failed to give what it promised in terms of building a better world. The French Revolution, while it made some progress, was a failure and set Europe back decades in terms of what real progress could have been made. The 19th century positivists failed so dismally that hardly anyone even remembers them (except perhaps in Brazil). The communists and socialists are an Enlightenment project par excellence and caused a political disaster topped only by Nazism and fascism (a thoroughly anti-Enlightenment movement). I think one ought to appreciate that everywhere the benefits of Enlightenment have come forth, it has only been because of the interaction with a more (small 'c') conservative and religious society that can imprint its moral values on its citizens so that they can behave responsibly going forward. I don't see compelling evidence that this is happening or has happened to the extent that it has in Europe because of the lack of the appropriate values for it elsewhere (as much respect as I have for other cultures). Just to look at one aspect, literacy is certainly a product of certain religious traditions. Certainly in the Protestant West, encouraging the faithful to pick up a Bible and to read it for themselves can only really happen if people can read, which of course makes all sorts of other things possible in the long run (including educating scientists, lawyers, doctors, etc.). The Enlightenment project only comes in after and notices that its beneficial for states to have a literate populace, but that political view mainly looks at people as resources rather than as beings with dignity. In that sense, the Chinese Communist Party can be totally enlightened in wanting to have an educated population and completely miss the point if they think they are doing it mainly to bring about either the glorious proletarian revolution or the greater glory of China.
@@sebastianorlander1326 What are you talking about?!
Francis of Assisi is an example of someone acting despite his beliefs more than because of them. Where does the Bible itself value animals? And when you've failed to answer that, ask the same about women!
Where does the Buddha sanction inflicting suffering on others?
Why do you think the Eastern Orthodox Church has the final say on values?
For the rest of this, we simply disagree about actual facts. I have my facts, you have yours, but I would point out that life muddled along for a very long time after Christ, many of those evils you speak of being administered by the church, itself, until science took over. We have experienced an exponential rise in every parameter of well-being, since, unevenly distributed, as it is, between those who embraced the enlightenment and those who continued with a heavy emphasis on religion. I repeat the warning, it could all be gone if we don't value what we have
@@maddi62 I think you might need to study religions more to get a grip on some of these claims you make:
- Francis of Assisi was the way he was because of his devotion to Jesus. He started hearing a call to sell off his belongings and to care for the poor, and so he did. His ministry towards animals follows in the same spirit. Scripture can be cited for further evidence, but that's an exercise that you can do for your own edification on Google. Same goes for women. In fact, the status and position of women is nothing less than exalted as the crowning achievement of creation itself (that's a standard reading of Gen 2).
- The Buddha does not permit violence anywhere. All the more reason to question how it is actually workable in any society. The great Ashoka managed to make Buddhism the state religion of the empire only after he had been a murderous conqueror. Buddhism was enlisted in Imperial Japan to justify conquest and slaughter in East Asia. Looking at more contemporary examples, Buddhists in Buddhist majority countries are just as good at persecuting their religious minorities as other countries, if not more so (judging by Myanmar in particular, the Buddhists seem to be very keen on eradicating their Muslim and Christian minorities by any means possible)
- I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church has the final say on who is the true Church that Jesus founded. I only wanted to point out that Western Christianity has historically been perceived as rationalistic and legalistic, where the Orthodox tended towards more mysticism.
Fortunately, facts belong to the common treasure of humanity, so it's something we can all draw on to arrive at the truth. The fact of the matter is that science by itself does not save society. Judging by how Communist states tried to run their countries on science it was a dismal failure. Same also goes for the Nazis who tried to run their system on a racial science that gave them an answer for how to best run the country. If you want to point out that it failed because it ran on bad science (which it was), then you should also be able to provide a provisional framework for what we should do while we get to a completed science. I would submit that that's impossible but also unnecessary, since it puts the cart before the horse in terms of how to run a society.
@@sebastianorlander1326 Genesis, eh. Read on, my friend, to Genesis 19, and tell me how exalted the women of that very sorry tale are. Try to explain that to me without twisting yourself into a pretzel, and bear in mind that Lot was said to be a righteous man.
Before you send me chasing down some utterly fruitless rabbithole in search of evidence for your nonsense claims (thanks for the homework. Thanks, but no thanks), give me a clue. Demonstrate to me that it is worthwhile sticking my head in the labyrinth of nonsense and anti-facts where is yours.
Buddhists, I understand, are at the end of their tether with radical Muslims. Who can blame them for that? And some individuals who call themselves Buddhists persecute others? So what? A bit like how some Christians do the same, you mean? Did the Buddha tell them to do so? No. And, likewise, did Jesus tell Christians to? No. But TH is taking his findings as reason to become a Christian, which is not, as I've just explained, the same as following the teachings of Christ.
You keep banging on about Nazis and Communists as if they are, somehow, the ultimate expression of the Enlightnment. God only knows how you can get to that conclusion. Some kind of pretzelated conspiracy theory pulled out of some internet orifice, I'm sure.
What should science do? Carry on searching for truth. Keep coming up with better explanations. Never hold on to ideas that become proven to be false. In essence, keep applying science. Simples
You are correct that there is much to lose if we get it wrong, friend.
However, if the enlightenment is all you need, nothing matters. There is no free will, no justice, no accountability, no purpose other than to seek personal pleasure (none of which can have any meaning anyway, because rationality presupposes a rational Creator of it all, aka God)
If the Bible and the Gospel is true, everything matters.
Nope.
The ONE question that no-one ever seems to want to ask...let alone answer...is: Why believe in God at all?? Even if 'It' exists...so what? What is the point...of believing in it? Or of believing-in believing-in it? What...is...the...point???????????
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: and The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. and For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
@@gailpurcell1649 You didn't even begin to answer the question.
Believing in something greater than oneself helps you carry on in the face of adversity; you carry on for the sake of family, nation, honor, truth, etc.
To believe in God is to recognize that a game is afoot that is much bigger than you are able to imagine, and yet the power behind it all cares deeply and specifically about you and your part in it because you're literally the means by which God plays the game.
Believing in God and deciding to cooperate with him keeps you open to his promptings. To hear God and act according to his guidance has its rewards. Life starts to be full of joy and purpose rather than strife and fear.
But if your life is all joyful purpose and you've never given God a thought, I'd say carry on! Well done!
@@timb350I'm quite wary of people who seem unable to put any of these spiritual thoughts into their own words.
That was actually FIVE questions...🙂
Taking just your first question, "why believe in God at all?"
Because God exists. God is creator of all things. Scripture is clear:
In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
By one man, Adam (the federal head of all humanity), sin entered the world and therefore death (the legal imputation to all of his offspring).
By one man (Jesus, God the Son), often called the second Adam, by his righteousness, sacrifice and resurrection, brings life to all who believe in him, again by legal imputation.
For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Any questions?
Seek the Lord while he may be found, friend.
No, the evidence is that there is still a decline in interest in religion. And quite rightly, as the stories that religion tells are not based on fact, and religious moral dogmas have been shown, in some cases, to be harmful.
You might benefit from reading Justin's book.
@@HearGodsWord Seen it all before. In the UK, less than 4% of people attend church AT ALL and in the US it is also in decline. Don't get me wrong, I don't wish the Christian Faith ill, I just like a little bit of honestly about where we are heading.
@@StudentDad-mc3pu so Justin's book is dishonest?
@@HearGodsWord Not at all. It's a point of view, but I think very intelligent people can believe some astoundingly silly things. A famous university professor who was in my church believed Evolution was not true and the earth was 6000 years old. As did everyone there. The inistance that we all go on believing"'six impossible things before breakfast" seriously undermined the credibility of Christianity for me as does many of its other claims still. It's a shame because the Christian faith has things to teach society and churches provided a normalising and socialising hub that helped maintain communities which is now all but disappeared. It has also done lots of damage as well, for instance the dogmatic rejection of same sex relationships is morally repugnant as is the silly worries about women leadership.
Are we about to see a renaissance in Church attendance. I really don't think so.
@StudentDad-mc3pu lots of words about something else but I understand the need for you to deflect.
No. You are not.
Yes. We are.