This is surprisingly well designed for a farmer. This is especially glaring as there are both professional gunsmiths and clockmakers who have made worse designs.
Tell me about it guys. Talent comes from the weirdest places. Grandma used to work in a fishery gutting fish, but in her portuguese neighborhood she did fine custom china as a hobby. Then you got weirder like a hollywood actress inviting an effective anti-torpedo machine. Heck, President Lincoln had a patent for a device that worked similar to what submarines would later use. The world is a strange place.
Yeap! Kalashnikov, anyone? P.S. Besides, among gun designers, there were several dentists, IIRC, Gatling was one. People chuckle, that's because they are used to bring pain to people. XD
another lesson in the evaluation of mechanical engineering Persons like yourself who are using TH-cam and other platforms to educate the public on history and also preserving the information are not getting the appreciation nor the appropriate percentage of the views. you've never put out a bad forgotten weapons video, because your passion for the history, and human ingenuity is obvious with each new video. thank you for your work
Rob Feldkamp - A bit of both. It's a great illustration of somebody thinking 'outside of the box', and the mechanism is simple, elegant, and it works. It might have been a developmental cul-de-sac, with the development of the blowback system, but I'd happily show this to anybody who doubts that precision engineering to definite tolerances was possible before C.A.D. And yes, I have encountered such people.
Farming and guns are not that much of a weird combination in Austria, traditionally land owners there were also always hunters (having the right to hunt game as they pleased), and that often came with very small gun manufacturers producing weapons for exactly these farmers. This is also why some developments seem rather behind their times, because the average customer only bought what he already knew to be good. That meant that occasionally even smoothbore flintlocks stayed „in service“ until even the early 1900s with some people, because they were tried and true weapons.
"traditionally land owners there were also always hunters (having the right to hunt game as they pleased" Only if your property is bigger than 115ha or more than 300 something in Tyrol ;)
+Forestal Frank Well, the development towards fewer land owners owning larger and larger shares of land in what’s nowadays Austria has been going on for over 200 years now... Not to mention that with usually rather wide-reaching contracts for land tenures, hunting was also available for smaller land „owners“.
Mos def one those episodes Where I’m especially happy w/ what Ian is showing. What a cool, solid, unique pistol. Had never heard of it & now I’m it’s biggest fan
Thanks Ian for all of the "hidden" gems you show us.. I have always enjoyed weapons and your channel is very fun to watch especially the history you supply... Carry on..
Hey Ian, you wont see this. But I appreciate this video. Having a hard time. Mediocre gun channel of my own, not doing well. Stroke at 24 years old. Medical debt. Lost my home and ability to drink. Lost my brother. My very way of life. But your videos remind me of what I enjoy. And where I want to be one day. I appreciate that.
been looking for inspiration for one of my books and you have just provided it Thank you Ian for your continued contributions to breaking my writers block
Heh. Last time I was this early, guns like this were still new and exciting. Now they're old and exciting! Seriously though, stuff like this is one of the big reasons I love this channel. Keep it up, Ian! And good luck dealing with TH-cam's idiocy. We're all pulling for ya.
@@witeshade From the looks of it, the extractor might be on the striker. So no unless the striker drops, it shouldn't waste the round or double feed. If I'm looking at it right, that's an amazingly elegant design and remarkably safe for the period too
A design sort of like this would be perfect for a suppressor. Rapid fire but there would be no extra noise or gas from the slide cycling like a regular semi-auto. If you want to take it a step further, it would be good for clandestine activities because you could easily catch the brass as you release the trigger to prevent leaving a trace. Just need to work on the trigger pull to make it like a double action where all the work is done on the pull of the trigger and the release is just spring loaded. Also, when done right, if you ever had a failure to fire you just keep pulling the trigger since it would eject and chamber the next round whether the ammo fires or not.
Receiver side plates are very WRA 1873 in appearance, plus the toggle action. I wonder if they would have gotten into any legal complications with Winchester if they went into commercial production....
Any idea why the sites are so far forward? There seems to be plenty of unused free space on the body of the receiver that could have hosted the rear sight assembly. This seems to be a pattern in general for guns of this time--even when one could put a much more usable sight with a long radius at the back of the gun, the designers opted for something more towards the middle of the gun instead. What gives?
Alex Vogel too much chance of the barrel or body flexing perhaps? Or just different theories on accuracy requirements or the apparent size of the sights.
I suspect it has to do with ease of manufacture and zeroing the sights with respect to manufacturing tolerances, notably concentricity and runout of the barrel to the receiver. By placing the rear sight at the chamber where the barrel attaches to the frame you virtually eliminate the need for the barrel to be aligned concentric and parallel to the frame. The axis between the rear and front sight will still be along the axis of the barrel, even if the barrel is off center. If the rear sight is moved back on the frame behind where the barrel attaches the sight picture axis is now a compound of the axis of the barrel and axis of the frame which must be sufficiently parallel to align with the axis of the barrel to zero the sights. As an engineer that would be an educated guess at their methodology.
Always enjoy your videos. That pistol reminds me of a lot of classic mini squirt guns. I wonder if those looking squirt guns were actually based on real pistols like this.
I have a question. Was Hiram Maxim's work the sole Genesis for self loading firearms, or was their similar work towards a self loading firearm concurrent with Hiram Maxim's machine gun? I'm just wondering because there seems a lot work towards pistols that come close to a semiauto pistol, and it strikes me as unlikely that none of the those developers would have had the idea to use the energy from round discharging to load subsequent rounds.
With the successful arrival of Headstamp Publishing, do you think there will ever be a chance for an english translation of Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole by Mötz & Shuy?
If I was a gun collector this would be the sort of stuff I'd be after simply because they look kinda cool ^^ What I wonder though: What type of cartridge did this use? I must have missed it if you mentioned it :/
Looking at the Wear on the Bearing Surfaces of the Screws....Whoever Bought them LIKED them Enough to Shoot them A LOT...I'd offhand Say that Speaks of a "Good Gun".....
I would have classed this as a double action pistol, the staging you get when the cocking arm actuated the trigger could have been done by directly tripping the sear the way a modern revolver can stage, or at least my Taurus's do. Since a separate finger isn't used to operate the trigger the comparison to a lever action isn't valid.
Looks like Ian just mixed up which model his earlier video was about - note that the trigger in the 1887 video does not match his description in this one...
Yeah as a reasonably mechanically inclined person, I can definitely see that pistol and say "I bet there's a way to make it work by itself" and of course a quite mechanically inclined person obviously did so, and from there, we all know the story!
How does a farmer in the mid 1800's learn to make great looking guns like that? Did he have to leave the farm and be an apprentice? Practice at night after farming all day?
That'S actually a really elegant little gun.
This is surprisingly well designed for a farmer. This is especially glaring as there are both professional gunsmiths and clockmakers who have made worse designs.
Tell me about it guys. Talent comes from the weirdest places. Grandma used to work in a fishery gutting fish, but in her portuguese neighborhood she did fine custom china as a hobby. Then you got weirder like a hollywood actress inviting an effective anti-torpedo machine. Heck, President Lincoln had a patent for a device that worked similar to what submarines would later use. The world is a strange place.
Inspiration vs. job or something.
Chromosome Wizard Joseph lister
Yeap! Kalashnikov, anyone?
P.S. Besides, among gun designers, there were several dentists, IIRC, Gatling was one. People chuckle, that's because they are used to bring pain to people. XD
from my experience farmers normally use the KISS method. Keep it simple, stupid.
Elegant simplicity. You really see the sort of refined pragmatism often seen in highland dwellers in the design.
Absolutely beautiful.
funny, schulhof means schoolyard in german
*Pumped up kicks intensifies*
Oh, so it's for the American market?
marrioman thirteen: LOL!!!! Thubs up.
Lol
Well kids were tougher back in the day.
another lesson in the evaluation of mechanical engineering
Persons like yourself who are using TH-cam and other platforms to educate the public on history and also preserving the information are not getting the appreciation nor the appropriate percentage of the views.
you've never put out a bad forgotten weapons video, because your passion for the history, and human ingenuity is obvious with each new video.
thank you for your work
that's because anything gun related on youtube gets suppressed and hidden from the general public.
That's one of the most beautiful pieces of machinery I've ever seen.
brianartillery if so what have you been looking at all your life?!😂
you mean as an object or they way it was machined?
Rob Feldkamp - A bit of both. It's a great illustration of somebody thinking 'outside of the box', and the mechanism is simple, elegant, and it works. It might have been a developmental cul-de-sac, with the development of the blowback system, but I'd happily show this to anybody who doubts that precision engineering to definite tolerances was possible before C.A.D. And yes, I have encountered such people.
I love the old clockwork levers and elbows.
Farming and guns are not that much of a weird combination in Austria, traditionally land owners there were also always hunters (having the right to hunt game as they pleased), and that often came with very small gun manufacturers producing weapons for exactly these farmers. This is also why some developments seem rather behind their times, because the average customer only bought what he already knew to be good. That meant that occasionally even smoothbore flintlocks stayed „in service“ until even the early 1900s with some people, because they were tried and true weapons.
Smoothbore flintlocks are great. You can easily make your own ammunition and powder, and there is very little that can go wrong with it mechanically.
"traditionally land owners there were also always hunters (having the right to hunt game as they pleased"
Only if your property is bigger than 115ha or more than 300 something in Tyrol ;)
+Forestal Frank Well, the development towards fewer land owners owning larger and larger shares of land in what’s nowadays Austria has been going on for over 200 years now...
Not to mention that with usually rather wide-reaching contracts for land tenures, hunting was also available for smaller land „owners“.
@@AntonEugeneLanthier Smoothbore flintlocks were lame. That's why frontiersmen in both the U.S and Canada favored rifles.
@@Snubrevolver The average American colonial had a smooth bore instead of rifles. Rifles were spendy, and time consuming to make.
What a beauty! Such an elegant design.
That's pretty clever. Very nice!
Excellent little pistol. I love old fashioned repeaters, whether they be long or short. Definitely on my collection bucket-list!
so its basically like a pseudo-semi-auto lever-action, interesting
Mos def one those episodes Where I’m especially happy w/ what Ian is showing. What a cool, solid, unique pistol. Had never heard of it & now I’m it’s biggest fan
Look at the quality!
I find early automatic pistols to be extremely interesting and this fits that genre well!
Thanks Ian for all of the "hidden" gems you show us.. I have always enjoyed weapons and your channel is very fun to watch especially the history you supply... Carry on..
I really love these videos, these old "forgotten" guns are incredible to see and how they work mechanically l.
Love this design. Beautifully made from what I can see.
Some really ingenious and innovative designs. even by today's standards. You would think they would be more recognized
Seeing the action definitely shows the path to true self loading action. Cool.
Hey Ian, you wont see this. But I appreciate this video. Having a hard time. Mediocre gun channel of my own, not doing well. Stroke at 24 years old. Medical debt. Lost my home and ability to drink. Lost my brother. My very way of life.
But your videos remind me of what I enjoy. And where I want to be one day. I appreciate that.
See now THIS, is why i love this channel, i have never seen a pistol like this before, such a unique and clever firearm too!
That gun looks like it would be strangely satisfying to operate.
Such an interesting idea, manually operating but simple to use
Not only a fascinating pistol, but it answers the question I submitted for Ian's next Q&A ;-)
What an elegant gun!
this is the most space western pistol i've ever seen and i actually want it
I just started supporting Forgotten Weapons on Patreon the other day. I'm glad to be helping such good content to be made.
been looking for inspiration for one of my books and you have just provided it Thank you Ian for your continued contributions to breaking my writers block
I always look forward to your next video
Weird old pistol? Yesssss I love this shit
Heh. Last time I was this early, guns like this were still new and exciting. Now they're old and exciting!
Seriously though, stuff like this is one of the big reasons I love this channel. Keep it up, Ian! And good luck dealing with TH-cam's idiocy. We're all pulling for ya.
Cool, that toggle link seems to have gotten around :) Thanks Ian!
That's a Genius's pistol! How did this not become a more used handgun?
A very different kind of weapon. Cool!
Such a nice looking gun
this pistol seems elegant enough to have a modern gunsmith "invent" it again. to go with your lever action rifle and lever action shotgun.
I NEED MORE LEVERS
I wish you had animations on your videos.. but cant complain.. this is awesome
Very interesting little gun
I think I saw Nathan Fillon waving it's successor around on TV!?
Would be pretty cool as a .22LR target pistol.
I would like to see Old Air-Guns on this Great channel...
Some could kill big game, and took 10 000 pumps to load, for just 1 shot!
It seems like a pretty good design for its age. It looks like something you would expect from the Mauser brothers or similar.
Interesting piece..
man you are prolific- love your style
Welcome in my view at all times
So if you don't complete the trigger pull, will it just eject the unfired round and you lose one?
DoctorChives I'm wondering that as well
Yeah it looks like if you weren't reasonably deliberate about what you were doing, it would be fairly easy to jam it up or waste ammunition.
@@witeshade
From the looks of it, the extractor might be on the striker. So no unless the striker drops, it shouldn't waste the round or double feed. If I'm looking at it right, that's an amazingly elegant design and remarkably safe for the period too
It looks like you can manually charge the striker without opening the chamber.
A design sort of like this would be perfect for a suppressor. Rapid fire but there would be no extra noise or gas from the slide cycling like a regular semi-auto. If you want to take it a step further, it would be good for clandestine activities because you could easily catch the brass as you release the trigger to prevent leaving a trace. Just need to work on the trigger pull to make it like a double action where all the work is done on the pull of the trigger and the release is just spring loaded.
Also, when done right, if you ever had a failure to fire you just keep pulling the trigger since it would eject and chamber the next round whether the ammo fires or not.
Seems to be in very good condition.
Wow, that could almost B called the grandparent of modern handguns.
I really like this one
This is super cool
Pretty neat design. I also like how it has a mouth
I wonder how many cartridges could fit in that tubular magazine? The loading gate looks pretty small, so I assume a fairly short cartridge.
awesome name
Receiver side plates are very WRA 1873 in appearance, plus the toggle action. I wonder if they would have gotten into any legal complications with Winchester if they went into commercial production....
Any idea why the sites are so far forward? There seems to be plenty of unused free space on the body of the receiver that could have hosted the rear sight assembly. This seems to be a pattern in general for guns of this time--even when one could put a much more usable sight with a long radius at the back of the gun, the designers opted for something more towards the middle of the gun instead. What gives?
Alex Vogel too much chance of the barrel or body flexing perhaps? Or just different theories on accuracy requirements or the apparent size of the sights.
Or maybe just personal preference.
It’s for the picotini rail to mount your IR sights!
I suspect it has to do with ease of manufacture and zeroing the sights with respect to manufacturing tolerances, notably concentricity and runout of the barrel to the receiver. By placing the rear sight at the chamber where the barrel attaches to the frame you virtually eliminate the need for the barrel to be aligned concentric and parallel to the frame. The axis between the rear and front sight will still be along the axis of the barrel, even if the barrel is off center. If the rear sight is moved back on the frame behind where the barrel attaches the sight picture axis is now a compound of the axis of the barrel and axis of the frame which must be sufficiently parallel to align with the axis of the barrel to zero the sights. As an engineer that would be an educated guess at their methodology.
I know you’ve a video on the ‘87 but could we have a few on the other types you spoke of in this video? I love these older slightly odd pistols
Interesting concept. That finish is pretty nice, was that how they came or did it just never get blued/browned?
Ian, if you ever come across a South African NTW-20 Anti Material Rifle, please do a video on one. It's such an awesome looking rifle!
Always enjoy your videos. That pistol reminds me of a lot of classic mini squirt guns. I wonder if those looking squirt guns were actually based on real pistols like this.
You didn't mention what cartridge it was chambered for. I'm guessing 7.65mm (.32 cal)...
RIA lists it as "8mm CF", Mötz&Schuy say ".320 Short Revolver"
Andreas Marx , thanks for the fill-in. Judging by appearances, especially the loading port, I figured the cartridge had to be rather small.
It looks like a prototype of a Borchardt with the knee joint inside the gun.
How does it compare to revolvers from the time? (capacity, reloading and trigger wise)
I have a question. Was Hiram Maxim's work the sole Genesis for self loading firearms, or was their similar work towards a self loading firearm concurrent with Hiram Maxim's machine gun? I'm just wondering because there seems a lot work towards pistols that come close to a semiauto pistol, and it strikes me as unlikely that none of the those developers would have had the idea to use the energy from round discharging to load subsequent rounds.
With the successful arrival of Headstamp Publishing, do you think there will ever be a chance for an english translation of Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole by Mötz & Shuy?
Jeez that thing looks like it has heavy trigger pull
"...the magazine actually has more than 1 rounds..."
My face expression :
😶🙄🤔😑😩
Cool little pistol. What was the caliber?
I'd carry one of those if they weren't so expensive
So, just how possible would it be to have an out of battery moment with this design?
Eventually I'll get through all the videos on this channel.
That is one hell of a disturbung name for a gun...
A strange little pistol
The caliber is 8mm cf
I can imagine you want to bid on every gun you review.
Im curious about the loading process
These older paterns look like they would work on 3d printed guns with modifications.
If I was a gun collector this would be the sort of stuff I'd be after simply because they look kinda cool ^^
What I wonder though: What type of cartridge did this use? I must have missed it if you mentioned it :/
Its kinda like a staple gun action.
Given that the name Schulhof translated in English means schoolyard… it could be a good name for some US guns iykyk xD
What was the major reason why the Schulhof was not adapted by military forces?
Wouldn't it eject the chambered round if you decided not to fire after pulling the first stage of the trigger and let the trigger go?
Should he be dry firing it so much? Isn't that bad for the firing pin?
_pumped up kicks intensifies_
Schulhof -> School Yard or something like that...
and its a long o, not a short one ;)
This is like a reverse toggle lock system isn't it?
Looking at the Wear on the Bearing Surfaces of the Screws....Whoever Bought them LIKED them Enough to Shoot them A LOT...I'd offhand Say that Speaks of a "Good Gun".....
I would have classed this as a double action pistol, the staging you get when the cocking arm actuated the trigger could have been done by directly tripping the sear the way a modern revolver can stage, or at least my Taurus's do. Since a separate finger isn't used to operate the trigger the comparison to a lever action isn't valid.
Wouldn't this be more akin to a DOA instead of a manual repeater?
Why is this one designated model 1884 type IIa when the nearly identical one with older worse trigger is the model 1887?
Looks like Ian just mixed up which model his earlier video was about - note that the trigger in the 1887 video does not match his description in this one...
but what is it chambered in? cuz that thing looks like a fun "parlor" gun
Functional steampunk tech.
Do you have a new camera? Video seems different...
Yeah as a reasonably mechanically inclined person, I can definitely see that pistol and say "I bet there's a way to make it work by itself" and of course a quite mechanically inclined person obviously did so, and from there, we all know the story!
This is probably a dumb question but what caliber was that neat little thing?
Does anyone have the link to, or know the name of that 5 shot repeating musket that was showed on this channel?
Strange gun. What next Ian, bolt-action AK-47? :)
Tom Shepard: th-cam.com/video/rZZTD3w_a5Q/w-d-xo.html
LOL, I was going to comment that he already did that but you even posted the link.
armamentresearch.com/pakistani-ak-style-bolt-action-rifle/ nice article to go around with the video.
I think he knew that vid and was making a joke.
Yep :)
How does a farmer in the mid 1800's learn to make great looking guns like that? Did he have to leave the farm and be an apprentice? Practice at night after farming all day?
What would happen when I pull the trigger to first position (locking the breech) and then release it? Would it eject?
Seems that way.
looks like something you would see in Dishonored or Dishonored 2
Kinda like that weird open-bolt pistol with a rotary magazine that Piero can make Corvo.