1:37:50 it does feel like a fever dream 💔 as a animal lover as well it breaks my heart that i cant save them all. The part where you said that it seems like the more good we try to do it ends up being counterintuitive, made me think of how the Bible is right, Jeremiah 10:23 says “I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” The harder we try to do better its imposible to fix all the damage, & its only going to get worst. I share the same thought, if at least i can give my animals the best life i can, and help some in need im doing my little part, but at the end of the day only the one in the heavens can and will fix our problems Thank you for this ep, Cant wait for the next! Keep up the good work!🙏🏼
What an insightful discussion. Enjoyed hearing about John's modest beginnings and development in herpetoculture over the years. I am so glad he has found himself back in the hobby and that his experiences in the pharmaceutical sector did not taint his views on captive animal keeping- rather, expanded his ethics. I do agree with his thoughts re: enclosure build-offs. Good points all around.
Such a great episode! Been following John for a while now and have always enjoyed seeing how much he gives to his snakes. But this was so much more than I expected- really fantastic points of conversation. I loved the mention of Temple's work- and her "hugging" contraption... that non-human-hug feeling is a concept that comes up in many interviews with autistic people about why they love constrictors! Thanks to both of you for this!
Dāv just did a video with Tom all about what happened with his house. As i understand, all that was originally under his business partner's name, who passed away. Tom followed advice that he didnt need to worry about it but some loophole is allowing the bank to push him out.
I agree with very many things here, but see that there are two different opinions on what "domestication" means. To me, it means that animals are becoming (genetically, morphologically, behaviourally) different from their wild counterparts by means of artificial selection. "Artificial selection" means that we choose the animals that best suit us as breeders (as opposed to "natural selection" where survival in nature & independent selection of partners are main drivers). When seen this way, domestication starts already when animals are caught in the wild: are they "average" animals, or those that are just a little bit slower than average, less careful, or maybe those that somehow look super attractive to us (think about rare morphs). The next step happens when we bring animals in a captive environment. Let's assume that we care really well for them and they all survive. Even then, some will do slightly better than others. Some will be more relaxed, less stressed, and therefore have a bigger chance to reproduce. I remember how hundreds of leopard gecko's were sold as wild caught animals, often in conditions that I cannot agree with. But this is a selection episode: which ones survived to reproduce, and which ones didn't? Again, colour morphs are important here too, because already decades ago, experienced breeders scanned these imports for gecko's that looked a little bit different. In their hands, these animals did very well, and continued to breed. Just this year, my last gecko died at an age of around 25, that was of a "high yellow" variety, basically one of the first captive bred morphs that was a little bit more yellow and a little bit less spotted than most. This then continues over generations: new morphs are discovered, morphs are combined, but along the way, there are still those animals that have more offspring and others that have fewer, under the conditions that we provide. There is also inbreeding, sometimes deliberately (to select for certain morphs), sometimes accidentally (for instance you buy animals at different stores while you don't know that they come from the same breeder). This all changes the animals. So, by definition, they become domesticated, even when they still may look like their wild counterparts. This is a gradual proces. Sorry for lawmakers: there is not one single point where we can say that a species is definitely domesticated (animal rights people tend to claim that non-domesticated species should not be kept). Most of these changes are relatively harmless to the animals. An albino animal is at a disadvantage in the wild, but, in captive care, it can live an equally good life as it's coloured counterparts. However, sooner or later, we get some morphs that radically alter an animal's appearance and have the potention to influence it's welfare. Scale-less reptiles. Dogs with a short muzzle. Hairless rats. This is the point where we have to seriously consider what we are doing. Can we still offer these "altered" animals conditions under which their welfare is not harmed by their appearance? Note that I do not include "interacting with people" in this definition at all. In my opinion fruit flies and honey bees are just as domesticated as cats and dogs.
Hey thanks for tuning in! Yeah..... really appreciate the comment and definitely an interesting perspective. Great observation about....... how did you put it...."average" animals being caught, maybe they are slower, stand out more etc.etc. That could be. I definitely see the connection you made regarding the animals rights groups. And I think that ties into domestication being viewed as "being conquered" or tamed if you will. But yeah, love this comment because we definitely tend to view domestication most prominently with farm animals. If you ask the average everyday person to name a domesticated animal, if cat or dog is not mentioned you can be sure they'd probably say a pig, a cow or a horse. Honey bees and fruit flies would probably not come to mind.
I did want to add that for the record, please don't misconstrue my words regarding PETA. They are not even a shell of their original grass roots movement. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals..... have become anti-ethical themselves and I do not condone their actions which have become progressively worse over the past 35 years. I do not support PETA at all. It was just an observation nothing more. Just wanted to put that out there and set the record straight.
Thanks for trying. Yes, it is very difficult. It's a "red pill" moment for sure. While ignorance can be bliss, it also won't achieve anything. If I could stop all animal research I absolutely would and I wouldn't know where to get started.... but it's not hopeless. The more in the know humans are, the better choices they can make. And that's what saving animals, our environment and the wildlife in it will come down to. Thanks for your comment and I understand completely. I've had to look through a lot of tears during that period of my life.
Thanks for checking in though. I understand completely. My eyes looked through quite a few tears in that period of my life. If someone would have asked me if I would work in that field when I was young, I would have said never in a million years! Even today it's hard for me to believe.
🦎🐍🐸 *For more info on The BioDude's amazing product line, please visit:* www.thebiodude.com/ or www.youtube.com/@TheBioDudeJoshHalter
1:37:50 it does feel like a fever dream 💔 as a animal lover as well it breaks my heart that i cant save them all. The part where you said that it seems like the more good we try to do it ends up being counterintuitive, made me think of how the Bible is right, Jeremiah 10:23 says “I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”
The harder we try to do better its imposible to fix all the damage, & its only going to get worst. I share the same thought, if at least i can give my animals the best life i can, and help some in need im doing my little part, but at the end of the day only the one in the heavens can and will fix our problems
Thank you for this ep, Cant wait for the next! Keep up the good work!🙏🏼
Thank you for listening to the episode, glad you enjoyed it!
What an insightful discussion. Enjoyed hearing about John's modest beginnings and development in herpetoculture over the years. I am so glad he has found himself back in the hobby and that his experiences in the pharmaceutical sector did not taint his views on captive animal keeping- rather, expanded his ethics. I do agree with his thoughts re: enclosure build-offs. Good points all around.
Thank you very much for listening, glad to hear you enjoyed the discussion!
Such a great episode! Been following John for a while now and have always enjoyed seeing how much he gives to his snakes. But this was so much more than I expected- really fantastic points of conversation. I loved the mention of Temple's work- and her "hugging" contraption... that non-human-hug feeling is a concept that comes up in many interviews with autistic people about why they love constrictors! Thanks to both of you for this!
Thank you so much for watching, Shira! Glad you enjoyed it 😊
Thanks for having me Dillon. Loving the intro! It's time to brew a cup of joe!
Thanks for joining me,John! I really enjoyed our conversation, it’s such an important one!
well done friend ,,,, nice 2 see u baccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
Thank you very much! 🤙🏼
Dāv just did a video with Tom all about what happened with his house. As i understand, all that was originally under his business partner's name, who passed away. Tom followed advice that he didnt need to worry about it but some loophole is allowing the bank to push him out.
Yeah I watched that too ... pretty darn ridiculous
I agree with very many things here, but see that there are two different opinions on what "domestication" means. To me, it means that animals are becoming (genetically, morphologically, behaviourally) different from their wild counterparts by means of artificial selection. "Artificial selection" means that we choose the animals that best suit us as breeders (as opposed to "natural selection" where survival in nature & independent selection of partners are main drivers).
When seen this way, domestication starts already when animals are caught in the wild: are they "average" animals, or those that are just a little bit slower than average, less careful, or maybe those that somehow look super attractive to us (think about rare morphs).
The next step happens when we bring animals in a captive environment. Let's assume that we care really well for them and they all survive. Even then, some will do slightly better than others. Some will be more relaxed, less stressed, and therefore have a bigger chance to reproduce. I remember how hundreds of leopard gecko's were sold as wild caught animals, often in conditions that I cannot agree with. But this is a selection episode: which ones survived to reproduce, and which ones didn't? Again, colour morphs are important here too, because already decades ago, experienced breeders scanned these imports for gecko's that looked a little bit different. In their hands, these animals did very well, and continued to breed. Just this year, my last gecko died at an age of around 25, that was of a "high yellow" variety, basically one of the first captive bred morphs that was a little bit more yellow and a little bit less spotted than most.
This then continues over generations: new morphs are discovered, morphs are combined, but along the way, there are still those animals that have more offspring and others that have fewer, under the conditions that we provide. There is also inbreeding, sometimes deliberately (to select for certain morphs), sometimes accidentally (for instance you buy animals at different stores while you don't know that they come from the same breeder).
This all changes the animals. So, by definition, they become domesticated, even when they still may look like their wild counterparts. This is a gradual proces. Sorry for lawmakers: there is not one single point where we can say that a species is definitely domesticated (animal rights people tend to claim that non-domesticated species should not be kept).
Most of these changes are relatively harmless to the animals. An albino animal is at a disadvantage in the wild, but, in captive care, it can live an equally good life as it's coloured counterparts. However, sooner or later, we get some morphs that radically alter an animal's appearance and have the potention to influence it's welfare. Scale-less reptiles. Dogs with a short muzzle. Hairless rats. This is the point where we have to seriously consider what we are doing. Can we still offer these "altered" animals conditions under which their welfare is not harmed by their appearance?
Note that I do not include "interacting with people" in this definition at all. In my opinion fruit flies and honey bees are just as domesticated as cats and dogs.
Thank you so much for watching the video and adding such a detailed response to the conversation! Very well said!
Hey thanks for tuning in! Yeah..... really appreciate the comment and definitely an interesting perspective. Great observation about....... how did you put it...."average" animals being caught, maybe they are slower, stand out more etc.etc. That could be. I definitely see the connection you made regarding the animals rights groups. And I think that ties into domestication being viewed as "being conquered" or tamed if you will. But yeah, love this comment because we definitely tend to view domestication most prominently with farm animals. If you ask the average everyday person to name a domesticated animal, if cat or dog is not mentioned you can be sure they'd probably say a pig, a cow or a horse. Honey bees and fruit flies would probably not come to mind.
Let’s go!!
Enjoy!
I did want to add that for the record, please don't misconstrue my words regarding PETA. They are not even a shell of their original grass roots movement. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals..... have become anti-ethical themselves and I do not condone their actions which have become progressively worse over the past 35 years. I do not support PETA at all. It was just an observation nothing more. Just wanted to put that out there and set the record straight.
38:30 no... its not ok to stomach it. Its absolutely horrific and if you cant see that your part of the problem
Love you but I can’t.
I hear ya, it’s a hard story to hear!
Thanks for trying. Yes, it is very difficult. It's a "red pill" moment for sure. While ignorance can be bliss, it also won't achieve anything. If I could stop all animal research I absolutely would and I wouldn't know where to get started.... but it's not hopeless. The more in the know humans are, the better choices they can make. And that's what saving animals, our environment and the wildlife in it will come down to. Thanks for your comment and I understand completely. I've had to look through a lot of tears during that period of my life.
Thanks for checking in though. I understand completely. My eyes looked through quite a few tears in that period of my life. If someone would have asked me if I would work in that field when I was young, I would have said never in a million years! Even today it's hard for me to believe.