Ian McDiarmid is so perfect in these movies. He seems like such a nice man, yet he plays the greatest villain in cinema history. He's not just a great villain because he can play evil so well, but because he can fool the other characters into believing that his intentions are good. This perhaps may include tricking himself into thinking that his actions aren't evil. Although, I'm more inclined to believe that Anakin is the one that believes that his actions aren't evil but are good. Still,I'm more inclined to believe that deep down Palpatine knows that he is doing evil but he just doesn't give a damn.
Man, I don't think you should ever apologise for 'geeking out'. Your audience is composed entirely of geeks. No commoner is here watching a Star Wars rumination - just fellow geeks.
This was brilliant. Great work Arch, really! Although I'm not a fan of the prequels (to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the movies in general, I prefer the expanded universe stuff and Kotor 1 & 2 are actually my favorite "stories" set in the SW universe). After your rumination on episode 3 though, I think I'm going to give them another chance. At the end, when you talked about Padme and Anakin, I almost started tearing up myself. You really gave me a new perspective on these characters, things that I have never considered before. Thank you for that! By the way, you're probably the only person on TH-cam I could listen to for hours without getting bored, I was actually kind of disappointed that this video was "only" 1 hour and 50 minutes long ... :P
The death of Aayla Secura broke my heart when I was young...yes I was in love with a blue Twi'lek Lady. I had her comics! We went through mutated Anzati together god dammit!
Re-listening to this on the last night of our vacation, because I love ROTS. The bit around 36 minutes is one of my favorite Lore rants where he says, "wouldn't it be interesting if the jedi actually treated Anakin like family, other than a thing." And then we move to the opera scene. Powerful. Well done, Lore.
I took my friends to see this in theaters the day it came out. I will love them forever because they cried when the Jedi died. I remember looking at them with a smile thinking, "These are my people."
The scene on Mustafar when Anakin spills the beans to Padme and lays out his 'we can rule the galaxy together' plan also shows one of the core ways and reasons the Sith operate the way they do: Anakin has bowed down to Sidious and joined the Sith. IMMEDIATELY he plans to overthrow Palpatine and rule himself. This is because, while embracing the dark side and drinking ALL the Kool-Aid the good deep within him knows Palpatine is evil and must be opposed, and realized that the only way to do that was to join and then betray Palpatine and take over. Again, the Sith strategy is all based on using the truth, so the tactic to being a Sith is to horribly abuse your apprentice to the point where they do think you are evil and they do think you should be opposed and they now only they can do that and only by becoming MORE powerful in the dark side but they will still need help and so they will need an apprentice. Then of course the Master will always want to kill the Apprentice before they become too powerful and so the best way to do that is for the Master to begin to train a new apprentice to replace them.
I really like you're view of whether or not Palpatine actually cared for Anakin. If I remember correctly we actually see him kneel down and place his hand on Anakin as if to comfort him. Though his willingness to abandon Anakin in return does seem to undermined this, I think it's perfectly in Palpatine's character to put his own goals and what he thinks is best for himself over someone who is actually a friend.
1:00:33 I don't think that means he is or was a Gray Jedi. I think that he is trying to entice Anakin into becoming a slave of the dark side by letting him know that to become more powerful, he must free himself from being a slave of the Jedi dogmas, but note that he doesn't say that also means that he must also one day free himself from being a slave of Sith dogmas, that means he is not technically a Gray Jedi. The Jedi and Sith are two absolutes, both of their views are narrow, you know this. All he is doing is giving Anakin a half truth and making it appear as a whole truth, making him understand that the morals of the Jedi and Sith are more relative than both sides care to admit, so that Anakin will feel more at ease making his transition to the dark side. In fact, there are few or no moral differences between the Jedi and Sith dogmas, they are just guidelines, nothing more, nothing less.
Also, if I remember correctly, Shii-Cho was considered insufficient on its own as a style, and was intended to be used as a jumping-off point to learn more effective styles. It's extremely unlikely a Jedi with the rank of master wouldn't have moved on to another of the six.
@@JayTheRed602 There is one jedi who was a master of shii-cho, he trained the young kids at the temple and faced Anakin when he executed order 66 in te temple. I think it was in a game or comic.
I love these videos man. This is the level of analysis and thought I crave. Short videos filled with quips, jokes, and lists can be fun, but this is real analysis. Keep it up man, theres definitely an audience for long form well thought out analysis.
I like the theory that RedLetterMedia brought forth in regards to the Jedi Counsel’s Downfall and how a Sith was able to cohabitate without the Jedi being aware of the Sith and ties in with your question of could Anikin’s dreams have been influenced by Sidious. They put forth that perhaps how that was able to happen was because Sidious was not only “clocking” himself from their detection(obviously) but while also clouding their minds and judgement ever so slightly. Not so much so that they’d notice, but just enough that they’d make decisions without for thinking them through. An example would be how Mace Windu confronted Palpatine when he went to arrest him. He went in woefully unprepared, with nearly no backup, and allowed himself to appear as though he were the aggressor(which he kinda was) and attacking a defenseless senator. This act then began the toppling dominos that led to the fall of the Jedi Order and the Republic. Well, that and JarJar began the toppling of the Republic...
I rewatch this all the time Lore. Love it. The novelization by Matthew stover is truly superb, and I love that you refer to it. Matthew stover wrote some great star wars books. Very cinematic style of writing.
"As all that pain fed into his power which was maintaining his life just enough to make him feel more pain in this horrible, horrible loop." That's how Sion got started isn't it. That's how he kept on going and became incredibly powerful when the Sith came crashing down all around him.
6 years later and now the prequels especially ROTS are now looked upon fondly by the general fandom. ROTS really is the most Star Wars of all the Star Wars films.
Great video, sir, but I can't agree with Palpatine being a grey Jedi. Conniving, mastermind Sith? Yes, but the reason he can't be a grey Jedi is because he doesn't seek unity between the light and the dark side of the force. The entire plot to get Anakin to the darkside was a ploy to create a Galactic empire and ultimately stagger the lightside of the force by purging the Jedi. This shifts the force heavily to the darkside's favor, which is indicative to Sith, not grey Jedi. I understand what you mean about him being able to survive and plot while being so close to the Jedi, but it was all ultimately an act. Palpatine wasn't using the lightside of the force to hide from the Jedi, he was simply suppressing his darkside of the force to the extent of being latent.
Sorry for the length of this…but hey...a 2 hour video is probably only average length by your standards so I don’t think a 4 page response will be all that off-putting for you. You know Arch...while I love listening to you express your views in almost every case including these films, I have to say that I view some of these matters entirely differently from you. Maybe I shouldn’t say entirely. That’s too strong. My views are just a bit different but they change the take-away of the scene in a significant manner. There are several points of discussion that you raise that I’m not even going to touch because I just don't have the time. I disagree entirely with the Palpatine is a Grey Jedi theory for countless reasons, but I don’t want to argue I simply want to discuss. And there are other ideas you offer that I would like to respond to in the future. Instead I’ll focus on the events which lead up to what is one of my favorite scenes in the book. NOT THE MOVIE. But the book. Now, you mention the books and the ROTS novelization several times throughout these ruminations. Given that you’ve read it, I’d like to draw your attention to the manner in which I view the relationship between Anakin and Palpatine, and the reaction that Mace Windu had to it. The Palpatine vs. Mace Windu scene is fairly controversial because people cannot agree on who actually won the fight. For my purposes in this discussion, that is not important. Personally it doesn’t matter to me if you think Palpatine could crush Windu or if Windu would have won if Anakin hadn’t shown up. The reason I bring this scene up is because the way it was carried out in the books served each character well from a storytelling point of view (at least in the novel though not in the film itself). This is because it’s THE moment when Anakin changes sides, and up until it happens, nobody could have said whether he would or not. Now you obviously appreciate the scene as you included it amongst your favorites. But in the book, the scene has so much more impact because it was built up to more effectively. And what makes it great is that no character involved actually KNEW what would happen. First point. The “trust” that you say contributed to Palpatine’s conversion of Anakin. You said that what Palpatine does most beautifully is tell the truth. I think you’re JUST off the mark there. I think what he does best is he intermingles bits of truth, legend, fantasy, and outright fiction to the point that each are indistinguishable from each other from Anakin’s point of view. Up to a certain point anyway. Because you see, Anakin (in the books) isn’t a moron. There are several points in time when Palpatine’s criticisms of the Jedi and more…sinister/dubious pronouncements cause Anakin unease. He even experiences flashes of anger toward Palpatine for the first time. And by the time we get through the Opera scene, Anakin has reached a point where he’s just beginning to show signs of willingness to look beyond his unfavorable attitude toward the Sith in general on the basis that he now has hope of learning the technique to prevent Padme from dying. And this is where we get the subtle difference between my view of Palpatine and yours with regard to his approach to Anakin. You called it trust. I call it justifiable arrogance. Palpatine loves to gloat. Now to his credit, Palpatine doesn’t tend to gloat unless he has good reason to. By all rights the odds were in his favor when he taunted Luke decades later about the fates that awaited the rebels. He has an incredible amount of power, cockiness, and confidence in his ability to dominate others. There is perhaps no stronger expression of this than his encouragement of Luke to draw his lightsaber when he knew that Vader would step in to block the blow. A similar thing comes into play when he reveals himself to Anakin. He does not truly trust Anakin to do the right thing from his point of view or something to that effect. He’s not trusting in some vision that he has foreseen. He’s relishing the moment. He’s taking pride in just how thoroughly he’s played Anakin. He trusts that he’s waggled such a tantalizing carrot before Anakin’s nose that the boy will not attack him. And he’s right. Calling the foundation of this relationship trust carries too much of a positive connotation and it also implies a joint effort between the two to work together. Only one person’s actions truly shaped the foundation of the relationship between the two. Now as I said this is still all about trust. The beauty of Anakin’s predicament is that it reveals his humanity and desire to act the way a Jedi should and also cling to the one he loves. And he realizes he cannot have both…though the argument could be made that this is only because of fear. He had no problem with the idea that he might sever his ties to the order in favor of leaving with Padme. But that was before the visions. Once he reached the point where he believed she would die, fleeing was not going to be a viable course of action. He could not lose her and he needed knowledge, whether of Jedi or Sith origin that would change her ostensible fate. The intensity of the internal debate raging inside of him stems from the fact that he’s grappling with the promise of Palpatine’s alleged knowledge and the chance to save Padme…but he also knows what Palpatine is and all through this section of the movie, his debate is ONLY concerned with what to do because of Padme. He believes Palpatine is wrong. He sees his monstrous actions for what they are. He doesn’t necessarily (and does not appear) to agree with Palpatine’s views regarding the nature of the Force, the dogmatic view of the Jedi, the point of view argument etc. At least not yet. All of that either flies in the face of what he believes at that point in time time, is over his head, or just not of interest to him. All he wants is to save his wife. And because of this, Palpatine doesn’t actually KNOW that he’s ensnared Anakin. But be believes he has. It’s technically still a gamble. But one he believes he’s won. And what makes Palpatine awesome is that he’s not afraid of consequence. He’s that confident. It’s the same thing that made the stand off between the Emperor and Luke so great. It gave me the sense that up until the moment when Luke tosses aside his lightsaber, that the emperor had NEVER failed to get what he wanted. That doesn’t mean he’d never been wrong or had never made mistakes etc. But he’d never failed to get what he wanted or been denied up to that point. It’s not based on trust. It’s based on confidence which however justified verges on arrogance. But trust is still at the heart of all of this. You expressed why Obi-wan’s reaction to the assignment the council gives Anakin was such a beautiful touch and I agree with all that you said there. But a similar effect comes into play with Anakin and Windu in a wonderfully ironic way once Palpatine reveals himself. You claimed that Windu walked into the Chancellor’s office with typical Jedi arrogance. He did not. If you had only watched the film, and that alone, sure, I’d understand how you could get that impression. But since you accept the book as canon, I would advise you to reread it. I love the character of Mace Windu because of that book. In that novel he argues several times with Yoda and Obi-wan (and each had different points of views and good points to make revolving around strategy the nature of the war and what to do about Anakin etc.) and speculates as to whether or not Anakin, the Chancellor etc. are trustworthy and he doubts this with good reason. By the time that Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, Anakin is not at all certain what he will do. That’s the reason why I mildly disagree with you for saying that Palpatine won the moment Obi-wan left the planet in pursuit of Grievous. That was CERTAINLY a great factor in allowing Palpatine the unrestricted access he now had to Anakin which he exploited to great effect. But it was more like an insurance policy of sorts rather than a guarantee that events would play out as they did. And the reason for this is because Mace Windu made a choice. And if he’d made a different one, Anakin might have too. Once Anakin learns the truth behind Palaptine’s role in the war, he goes directly to Mace Windu. Up to this point, Windu has been mistrustful of Anakin and wary of the danger he could represent, especially if the Chosen One prophecy had been misinterpreted. And what happens next is irony at its finest. Mace Windu weighs the decision of facing what he acknowledges will be the most dangerous adversary he has or could ever face WITH or WITHOUT the Chosen One at his side. He deliberates. And he ultimately chooses to leave Anakin behind because he can see the emotional distress the boy is in. He believes Anakin would be too susceptible to act rationally and without the dark side’s sway in his current state. But he appreciates what Anakin has done. In an attempt to reassure him, he says that if what Anakin has told him is true, the boy will have earned his trust. He then orders him to the stay behind for his own good as well as the good of the Republic. Windu realizes that immediate action is required and in the book, confers with Yoda on what to do. So when he walked into the Chancellor’s office with the rest of the Jedi in tow, to call it typical Jedi arrogance is too dismissive. It robs the moment of the irony that it’s charged with in the book. If he had trusted Anakin, and allowed Anakin to help him arrest (and they did go there to ARREST the Chancellor), it’s possible Anakin might never have fallen. Windu didn’t try to assassinate the Chancellor until he realized just how powerful, twisted and overwhelming a threat he was. Had Anakin been able to be honest about what motivated his need for Palpatine without fear of narrow minded Jedi imposed recrimination for his being in love…had Windu known that in threatening to kill Palpatine (which was a fully justified course of action given the circumstances) he was also threatening to doom Padme… who knows what might have been different. But because Windu left Anakin behind, Anakin was given the opportunity to make a choice of his own. In both cases the choice was made because of the fear of the possible outcome. Windu feared Anakin’s susceptibility to the call of darkness. Anakin feared the loss of Padme. Both made a carefully measured and conservative choice in order to protect what they were most dedicated to. And both lost. The only winner was Palpatine. To say the Jedi lost the moment Obi-wan left Coruscant is NOT incorrect. But it’s a little too simplistic and takes the onus off of Anakin who also had a stake and a say in this. Palpatine didn’t force him to do what he did. He made the choice to do what he did as you also noted with regard to the children in the temple. Because Windu was ignorant of Anakin’s attachment to Padme. Because Anakin felt the Jedi did not trust him and could not be trusted in turn. Because Palpatine cloaked arrogance and self confidence underneath the mask of trust. Because of all of that, Anakin fell. And that is something that is just so much more complex than “Jedi arrogance” or Yoda’s failure. Not that those aren’t factors in all of this… Love your stuff Arch. Just wanted to weigh in on the issue.
Almost 40 years of age and I freely admit I cry when Order 66 happens no matter how many times I watch the film. The entire sequence is emotionally punishing because yes, the mind fills in the blanks and makes us know exactly what's going on even if we don't see it and even if we never liked the Order and the Council.
As I was rewatching the final fight, I thought of a small change in the dialogue that makes it better and ties in something we saw in TCW (namely Anakin's growing distrust of the Council, if not the Order). Obi: "I have failed you Anakin. I have failed you." Anakin: "I should never have trusted the Order." Obi: "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is corrupt!" Anakin: "From my point of view, the Jedi are corrupt!"
I respectfully disagree. There is one paragraph in the novel that sets the standards of the duel. It's along the lines of "This was not Sith against Jedi; this was not light against. It had nothing to do with duty, philosophy, morals or religion. This was Anakin against Obi-Wan. Just the two of them. Personally. And the damage they had done to each other." I would've had their dialogue like this.... Obi-Wan: "I didn't want this for you!" Anakin: "YOU BROUGHT THIS ON YOURSELF!!" Obi-Wan: "I only wanted what was best for you, Anakin! I wasn't prepared to train someone like you!" Anakin: "THATS YOUR FAILING!! NOT MINE!!" Obi-Wan: "...I have failed you, Anakin... I have failed you...but I won't abandon you to the dark side!!" Anakin: "THATS NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE!!" Obi-Wan: "WELL THEN YOU ARE LOST!!"
I agree entirely on the whole "no" thing, it wouldn't have taken much to take that from 'campy' to sustaining that mood with like a scream of rage. Hell, before he even says "no" you hear him growling at he is just breaking that lab in all his pure dark side power and all it needed was just like this final outburst of just pure emotion.
the NOOOOOOO honestly didn't bother me that much maybe because i'm still stuck riding the high of the perfect starwars movie from order 66 to the end, maybe if i rewatch the the NOOO scene on its own it would bother me more then it does.
The problem with the noo is the delivery. I've watched the latin spanish version of this (latin spanish is my borned language) and the nooo has more rage to it. There it works, in english it doesn't.
Also Archengeia I think you severely misunderstand Windu's place in all of this. Yes Palpatine was more than likely keeping him alive but Mace kept up with Palpatine all the same by use of Vaapad. He didn't use the dark side of the force in that fight. Windu fed off PALPATINE'S anger. Vaapad is remastered Juyo turned into a weapon that feeds off rage of the opposing dark side users. Only two people have ever mastered it and one fell to the dark side. The other was Mace Windu and the two fought with everything they had. If Palpatine had continued the fight and if Anakin didn't step in then it is likely that Palpatine may have succumbed to his own anger however doubtful that may be and resort to force based powers. Likewise Windu didn't go in there with the mindset that this will be easily done. He brought Kit Fisto in there with him a renown master from the clone wars. If this were an easy fight Kit would have been left at the temple and Windu would have brought along someone else. They left one of THE Premier lightsaber specialists of the order on standby at the temple. Cin Dralig is a master of all forms of lightsaber combat and he was said to be on Grevious's level. And Yoda his arrogance is not looking outside of his bubble. He didn't suspect Palpatine until the end which was what caused this and you can see this reflected on Windu by his reaction to finding out Palpatine was the original sith lord. All in all I respect some of what you said in this video but mistakes like in my other comment related to Soresu and as others pointed out that Shii Cho is the most basic form of lightsaber combat.
After watching this review it has give me a different perspective on this movie now. Very interesting to hear that Padme wasn't even going to die and that it was a manipulation trick by Palpatine
Archengaia, Obi-Wan Kenobi uses Soresu(form III) not Niman(form VI), also Niman is not basic form in any way, shape or form, Soresu is defensive form used mostly to fight agains enemies with blasters.
If there is one thing I don't agree with, it's the Grey Jedi point. I don't think you can do what he did in this series in totality and be anything but black, dark, and evil. The man created a super weapon to destroy planets! He's talented, intelligent, able to plan, and put the pieces on the board well. He may take aspects of the light, but I don't think he has that kind of....tapping into it. Anyways, I don't want to dwell on that just say I really, really don't agree on that point. The movie itself was pretty good. I remember seeing it early (had really bad seats, but oh well). It really was all over once Obi Wan left the planet, they were just done at that point. He was the one guy that while there could have done something about this. Props to him for winning his fight, but sadly the result just didn't matter. He beat a death machine, but one that didn't matter in the greater scheme. I'll still be glad for those two last big fights. Yoda and Obi Wan took on some amazing opponents. Sadly they didn't get the ideal result. If both had won then who knows how things go from there. But only one of them won. And sadly things just went downhill from there. The order to wipe out the Jedi...just watching Yoda react to that. Yoda just barely surviving and Obi Wan just getting lucky.
The novel has so many great points in it that damn near save the entire Prequel Trilogy that were never even alluded to in the films. Like the perfect Jedi trap. Or Yoda's realization that the "pious babble about Letting-Things-Pass-Out-Of-Your-Life" dogma only works because the Jedi routinely take children from their homes before those connections can be established. Anakin loved and was declared a heretic. Also, everything about Clones and Droids both being completely expendable.
A very intruiging rumination that's actually uplifted this film significantly for me! I will definitely rewatch this film, taking a very close look at all the physical acting. Thanks Arch!
I've seen a fairly looking reliable article saying that there was originally going to be a scene after Anakin's defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan where Anakin begs his former master to help him as he's burning. I can definitely understand why it wasn't included if true, but man, that would have made the scene even more powerful.
I was in the emperors hammer as well as another group called the crimson strike fleet. I think they had merged with another group called the star vipers. Tie fighter consumed years of my life.
Amazing work Arch, it's great to see someone give this movie the credit it deserves. I love this movie, heck I just rewatched it last week. I would put it above Return of the Jedi. It is one of the most emotionally charged films i've ever seen and I am not ashamed to admit that I cry alot. When the kid walk up to Anakin and says: "They are to many, what are we going to do?" That moment makes my very soul hurt, knowing what is coming. I would like to point out one thing though about the moive. During the battle on Utapo (was it the name?), the place where Obi Wan battles Grevious, we see a clone take out two of those spider-droids by himself. This was, for me at least, very telling on how skilled the clones were as fighters. Just as you say it "food for thought". This is by the way one of the best ruminations you've done, alongside FFVI, I teared up more than once. Can't wait for Episode IV.
I have really been enjoying your Star Wars ruminations. Can't wait for episodes IV, V, and VI. I'm sure you already have a loaded video schedule, so it's crazy I say this, but have you considered a sort of bonus rumination at the end pertaining to the "expanded universe" with the good/bad that came out of it, that you have experienced? I've not seen/read/played anything from that outside of Shadow of the Empire for N64, and you are the person I would enjoy listening to if any had an impact in your love of Star Wars.
wow, this was really fun to watch. Your in depth analysis of the social dynamics between the characters and the force representations of those emotions was very real and meaningful. Makes me like the movie much more after seeing this. It really was a good movie.
After playing KOTOR2 i saw the force not as a dark and light side or good and evil side but as an order and chaos side. So I could see Palpatine using the "light" and "dark" side of the force for evil
The best Star Wars ruminations yet. Truly wonderful, but there's so much great stuff you're producing recently I don't have time to watch it all! A good problem to have, though! Your bit on Sidious as a Grey Jedi was fascinating though, but I have to admit it makes entirely too much sense. Great job as always Arch.
I couldn’t agree more about the jarring “Nooooo” scene at the end. To this day it BLOWS MY MIND that NO ONE associated with the production of the film watched that back during shooting and said “Yeah, we gotta take that out, it’s stupid.” Hell, weren’t there any test screenings!? I just can’t fathom how in any universe but this one that that got left in the film. Smh...
Gray Jedi thoughts... That would make SOOOOO much more sense than having Palpatine be straight up darkside Sith from the get go. It finally explains why no one can sense his presence as a darkside user. Awesome insight!
I always found it interesting that the filmmakers chose to portray Padme's and Anakin's death and Vader's birth side by side because they are both on operating tables. Both are in similar states of care, Anakin/Vader with Palpatine who may or may not care about him, and Padme who is with Obi-Wan, who genuinely seems to care(as Padme is his only remaining connection to Anakin, his brother) Yoda, who seems to not care at all about Padme and is only there to see how evil Anakin's offspring is as well as survey potential force power, and Bail Organa who is there because he spent time in the Senate with Padme and got to know her as a friend. Obviously there are different numbers of people, with varying emotions directed at Padme and Anakin/Vader as they are on the operating tables, but the overall emotional state of everyone involved seems almost to be either neutral or disinterested. That, and the fact that both are tended to by droids that are only helping or trying to help because that is their job made it so clear to me how similar the deaths of Anakin and Padme are. That both die, so similarly, made the movie that much more interesting to me.
You forgot the overall symbolism within the last duels of the movie and how it ties into political undertones such as imperialism and tyranny. Anakin and Obi-Wan fighting, represents the death of industry, as they fight on this industrial planet, destroying everything they touch. It represents the halting of growth and industry. All the while it’s cross cutted with Yoda and Palpatine fighting in the senate chamber, representing the death of liberty and free speech. This movie has many serious political undertones, such as Anakin saying “you either with me or my enemy”, which is the along the lines of the same dogma that Bush said “either your with us or your with the terrorists” Just watch Camille Paglia’s thoughts on it, she hails the finale to this movie as the greatest piece of art in the last 30 years.
an hour of waiting for the train home after a 12 hour work-day... doesn't seem so bad with this new star wars rumination. (english is not my first language ^^)
I don't subscribe to the idea that telling the truth is automatically not a manipulation. In my opinion it matters how and when you tell the truth and for what purpose. Palpatine understood that ''the truth'' made for a much more powerful weapon then ''the lie''. If his claims had no basis his words would had fallen on deaf ears. But he pointed, correctly what was wrong with the system but took great care in directing the reactions to his manipulations. It is litteraly him starting a revolution for the right reasons and the guiding it to end in his best interests. Quite masterfull
Man, this is awesome! It´s so interesting to hear your views and theories about the movie. So many things that I´ve never thought about or even knew before I watched your rumination. Oh and it´s fun to finally hear someone say positive things about this film and not just talking shit about it. I thought I was one of the few who really liked this movie, haha. Again, great work and many interesting theories and conclusions. Keep it up!
1:29:50-ish I know it's a very unfortunate moment, but I'm kinda glad she didn't just die of a lack of a will to live despite her having the twins(I forgot why I thought that was the canonical version all these years as I haven't rewatched the prequels in years, but him "poisoning" her by accident makes much more sense with that force choke)
It was a great run, i really like how you see the prequels. Have you tried rewatching the movies in the "machete" order? That is: 4, 5, 2, 3, 6. It makes a lot of sense, and honestly, the transitions 5-2 and 3-6 are just awesome.
So glad you agree that the EU is still canon. That whole thing is literally the only reason I can tolerate the prequels as being part of continuity. The comics and games and books fleshed out these characters, which made me appreciate the movies even if none of what is in the books was the intention behind the films. It's a complete waste of (my) time to just write off everything I've spent my formative years in life reading and exploring and getting excited about because that's what the new direction for this franchise is now. I understand that some things will undoubtedly be completely contradicted by the new movies, basically everything that happened after Return of the Jedi in the books will probably never fit in with the new movies...but KOTOR? The Darth Bane books? (of which are actually referenced in the RoTS novel, on top of other EU works) What about the Darth Plageuis book, which fleshed out a ton of The Phantom Menace and actually made some of the plot points in it make a little bit more sense? None of that happened, the prequels are as ill-conceived and directionless as everyone claims they are? At least with Star Trek, the new movies acknowledged that everything that came before still happened, they were just erased by time travel.
With Star Wars, everything that came before still happened. But it was just erased by Disney. There isn't a difference between Trek and SW other than that a movie acknowledged it.... so, yeah, I wish people behaved more like you & Lore here. There'd be a lot less angst abound.
I love your review, and I completely agree that this movie in particular gets a lot of undeserving hatred. But, as good as the novels and other works are, I hate that a lot of films around this time, in my opinion, leaned on extra works to flush out what should be covered in a film. I agree with Red Letter Media on this, I shouldn't have to do homework to understand the characters or setting of a movie. Those should add, not be the primary source. But like I said, that is just my opinion.
Awesome rumination... I remember reading the book adaptation of "Revenge of the Sith" and crying reading the last chapters of this book. So I understand your emotions on this story. Revenge of the Sith is a great story, the best of the prequels. It is unfortunate that George Lucas reputation puts a "dark cloud" on this movie. Revenge of the Sith is second that to Empire Strikes Back. The Force Awakens should be just as good. I can't wait. I plan to watch the films again using the Machete Order: A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, and Return of the Jedi. It is mentioned that this is best story wise, without ruining Vader's "I am your father" moment. Good work!!!
Also, though this doesn't service my point about him being portrayed as a "mustache twirling villain" I think we have to consider the type of war we're seeing in the CIS vs. Republic conflict - it's tactically conventional but strategically asymmetrical for the most part, where the tactics on the battlefield are largely conventional but the larger strategy is asymmetrical, with largely unbalanced forces. In this regard the Republic out-performs the separatists. A real-world example would be the American Revolutionary war - in that the big set-piece battles were fought in the format of the day with artillery on the high-ground and maneuvering in ranks, etc, however for the most part the Continental Army was conducting fighting retreats and had to be constantly on the move and constantly falling-back to avoid being destroyed by the British, George Washington, Nathaniel Greene, the 'Swamp Fox', all became famous for their constant escapes and then baiting and attacking the British forces through attrition - when people talk about Grievous being "cowardly" and always escaping you have to understand that this is the same strategy being employed. As many droids as they have they do not have as much money as the Republic nor do they have resources, so these daring attacks and then quick retreats - the constant escapes - are a side-effect of the conflict being fought and I would argue actually attest to the strategic acumen of Grievous - though of course this could be unintentional on Lucas' part.
The noises Vader makes before he says 'nooo' would have been better, he's trying to destroy everything in reach in impotent rage. Loving these videos, episode 4 tomorrow.
Anakin VS Tyrannus - The end of battle was in many ways wrong in my opinion. The very first glimpse of Vader in that fatality was shown. However it´s kinda stupid how Anakin didn´t noticed so obvious realization and look of Dooku towards Sidious. Even more stupid, why a Sith Lord would show terrified fear, almost to the point of tears. If anything he should have been enraged for aleast two reasons; That he failed to a single "not even Jedi Master", and that he have been betrayed by his master. I see a scene where in his last moments his eyes for the very first time start turning into yellow-red where they are both enraged, Anakin and Tyrannus instead. Anakin becomes Sith - Even in the theater I was like - OH, COME ON!! In the matter of seconds, without any knowledge of the Sith or even a Sith code he suddenly pledged himself and became the Sith - immediately?? Riiiight... "I want to become a Sith. Ok, I am now a Sith"... for frakk sake! Palpatine´s deformated face - is his / Sidious´s true face. So he was NOT deformed with backfire of force lightning, he was only stripped of his MASK that he wore for almost entire life till that point. Vader VS Obi-Wan last scene - I agree, Vader burning is one of darkest and most powerfull Sith scenes ever, BUT Obi-Wan simply leaving him in grim pain and fate is still so out of character it doesn´t make any sense. Vader "Noooo.." - Yeah, should have been solved just by rage smashing everything with a force, even on mute that scene is better. Grevious portrayal in the movie - Awful, painfully laughable. Of all characters I can´t believe they chose him to be the comic relief in the beginning of a movie. Facepalm.
Also, I believe that Windu legitimately defeated Sidious, although that is just my opinion. And a point on how Vapaad works; it does not negatively affect Windu. The dark side is channeled around Windu; it does not touch him.
Something that I didn't think of until it was pointed out to me is that this is the first time anakin and grevious meet. They actually never meet face to face in the clone wars show.
I was at s museum for the Holocaust good number of years back, I think I saw order 66 before, but lore wise and watching anything related to order 66 and even the new star wars cartoons that focus on the aftermath after that experience just hits different as far as the emotion and distress associated with that traumatic event for the universe (despite the faults of the Jedi order)
Palpatine a Gray Jedi? Okay...but you also could go the other way around. The Jedi Order being so clouded by the Dark Side and/or their Doctrines that they even miss the obvious dark presence of a Dark Side Nexus hidding...Palpatine obviously does conseal himself and his Dark Side...He may have studied both sides but he is a Sith afterall...he could use the knowledge of the Jedi teachings to an extend to know how to avoid being detacted...I deem him as wise to do so... The factor of Palpatine using the dark side to cast a mist around the Jedi and to be disciplined enough to hold back his Dark Side I would consider to be plausible.
LEGO Stars Wars the game may have done the birth of Darth Vader better as it has him just destroying all the equipment in the room in anger as soon as he wakes up.
There's so much that I wanted to add to many of the points you made, but it would be paragraphs upon paragraphs. Perhaps I'll bring them up on future streams if I remember. I'll say one thing. When Obi-wan says "I win. I have the high ground," I always thought that was stupid to say because that doesn't mean you automatically win. It came off as a warning to Anikan that Obi-wan had won the fight. As I thought about it more, perhaps Obi-wan said that in hopes Anikan would stop fighting, and they no longer would have to try to kill each other. He knew Anikan would still fight him, but deep down Obi-wan didn't want to believe that Anikan was so far gone. As he later proved, he didn't want to kill Anikan, and it was his last ditch effort to salvage their brotherly bond. When we were kids, anytime I fought my older brother I knew he would never go too far because he was my brother, even though he was bigger and stronger. Perhaps Obi-wan was under the same mentality to try to cope with the situation, even in doubt.
I know this comment is VERY late, but I just want to throw this out there; In regards to your statement about Windu vs. Palpatine, George Lucas debunked that whole "Palpatine let him win" theory. I do think that the idea that he let him win makes a lot of sense and it makes Palpatine's plan seem that much more masterful. But according to the overlord himself, it is nothing more than fan theory/head canon.
One of the many reasons I despise Episode 2 so much, is because it severely misrepresented Yoda's character. They depicted him as a sword-wielding athlete who was just keeping up with Dooku's control over the force. What they should have done is have Yoda not even touch his lightsaber and just destroy Dooku with the force alone. Dooku should have quivered under the pressure of Yoda's angry and disappointed gaze. This is how he was set up in the old trilogy and even in Episode 1, because out of all the Jedi Masters, his control and affinity to the force appeared to be the greatest. Plus his most memorable scene is lifting Luke's ship out of the swamp, even though he was incredibly weakened already and mere hours away from his death. And in Episode 3, I just feel like they, again, underplayed his control over the force, although not nearly to the same extent.
As always, a very thought-provoking video and your insights and opinions are always interesting, Archengeia. I need some time to digest this video, but one thing that I personally agree with, partially, is the scene where Darth Vader first draws breath. That literally sends a chill down my spine just thinking about it. But just as in Return of the Jedi where Vader finally acts against the Emperor, so it would have been far more powerful and much less ridicilous, if he was simply channelling the Force, as he does, in silent anger in Revenge of the Sith. It speaks volumes in and by itself.
With regards to your opinion about Palpatine being a grey Jedi - I see your point and *almost* agree, however just because a Sith uses light side powers doesn't mean he's grey. Throughout the canon, there are force users who uses powers that aren't in their force alignment. That would make Kyle Katarn, Bastila Shan, Revan and Juhani all grey Jedi. (I could understand Revan being called grey.... but that's a big topic.)
Well, technically speaking, Kyle Katarn kind of could be considered a Grey Jedi. In fact, in the game Jedi Academy, in the beginning tutorial level where he's tutoring Jaden and Rosh (I think that's their names), he specifically mentions that it's not WHAT side of the Force that you're using, but how you're using it and to what end. Of course, I would also say that Kyle is definitely more light side leaning than dark side, but by that time in the EU, both he and Luke used both sides of the Force to do what they believed was right. As Arch has pointed out himself, light side does not always equal good, just as the dark side does not always equal evil.
True, but it could also be argued that those children were still young enough that they could easily be turned into tools of the Dark Side. And considering how manipulative Palpatine is, and what he did in fact do with young Force users in the future (at least in the EU), that's actually a very feasible possibility. But that's not what happened. Anakin could have chosen to spare the children, if only to make them into tools for Palpatine or himself. But he chose to kill them. Anakin chose that. Granted, Palpatine likely knew that Anakin would do that, but the point remains that murdering the children was Anakin's choice.
I think the biggest problem for Episode III in my opinion is that the film proper itself has many holes, either through character interactions or motivations or actual weaving of the Clone Wars and the fallout of the Jedi. But if you look at it as an epilogue to The Clone Wars TV series and watch it in that manner, it’s WONDERFUL and really salvages what otherwise would be a broken and forcibly stitched together story.
Form I: Shii-Cho-THIS is the most basic form Form I, also called "The Way of the Sarlacc," is the most basic form of lightsaber combat -- and the most ancient. For this reason, it is the first form of lightsaber combat that most Jedi learn. It was developed as the Jedi transitioned from using traditional swords to using lightsabers. The moves of Form I focus on disarming one's opponent without hurting him. Its wide, sweeping motions are useful when facing multiple enemies, but do not work well against lightsaber-wielding opponents. Form III: Soresu-is what Obi-wan specialized in, pure defense, which became jedi philosophy personified. Form III, also called "The Way of the Mynock," was developed to defend against blasters. It is characterized by tight, efficient movements that shield the Jedi's body, using the lightsaber primarily as a defensive weapon to deflect blaster bolts. The practice of Form III is an important reflection of Jedi philosophy, as it emphasizes the Jedi belief in calmness and non-aggression. A Jedi using Form III must center herself in the Force in order to anticipate her opponents' movements and successfully block blaster fire. Obi-wan also specialized in Ataru from when he was a padawan which he uses for his attack, also what he used to kill Maul.
I agree with most of your points, but I feel you don't take individual lightsaber forms into account. The Council's decision, for example, to send Kenobi to face Grevious was also motivated by the fact that Kenobi was the reigning mast of form 3 Soresu, which enabled Kenobi to defend and ultimately take advantage of Grevious' disadvantages. Also, Niman is arguably one of the most difficult forms. The most basic form is Schii-Cho. Kenobi was a master of Soresu, which is a defensive form.
Great rumination.While I think episode 3 is the best of the prequels, its still not quite good in my book.I consider it above average.Anyway I would love to see more movie ruminations.I would love to see your thoughts on Bladerunner and Fight Club.
Without going into full 2 hour detail I'd just like to say that both are amazingly well crafted movies that it's a shame didn't get the recognition they really deserved at the time. I personally put Blade Runner in my Top Whatever list of movies.
Um Archengeia Obi-Wan practices Soresu and has the perfect wall of defense going for him. Niman is the preferred form of lightsaber combat practiced by Jedi Counselors whom use force attacks and minimalist movements like Exar Kun.
Speaking of music. I was positively surprised by what Williams did with the intro - classic Star Wars title theme almost naturally morphing into battle theme. Even the track is called "Star Wars and the Revenge of the Sith", if I remember correctly. This basically set the tone for how entire score for this film felt.
Archengeia I got to the point where you discuss cybernetic research. I think it is safe to assume that Palpatine started researching that field, because it was known that excessive usage of Dark Side in time leads to excessive physical damage of the user. So maybe Palpatine looked into ways of preseving himself, possibly infinitely?
CrazyChemistPL Wouldn't surprise me. He might not have known about the clone method at this point in time and so was looking into all his possible alternatives.
Archengeia Given the magnitude of his power, influences and resources, I wouldn't be surprised if he was researching anything he considered even slightly plausible and potentially beneficial for him. If you don't mind, may I discuss your view on Palpatine as a grey Jedi? Do you consider post Order 66 Palpatine as grey still? Because for me it seems like he uses it as a way of finally reject the Light Side, once it stops being useful for him. Palpatine as an Emperor is no longer grey in my opinion.
Another great Rumination, perfect for listening while building machines at work. =) I took down notes while listening, so they might seem random. The opening battle…I think the people who made that scene threw in everything, including the kitchen sink into it. Come to think of it, isn’t there a quick scene where a Separatist ship blows up and we see a sink fly off? =) Anakin’s caring of R2 might be due to his feelings of camaraderie towards the droid, but it might also be due to Padme giving him R2 at the start of the war (as seen in the cartoon micro-series); R2 is Anakin’s connection to Padme throughout the war. I’ve often wondered about R2 and why he wasn’t wiped like Threepio in at the end. Wiping seems similar to the ‘Death of Personality’ verdict seen in Babylon 5, except one involves people, the other, droids. General Grievous…from the cartoon series he came across as supremely badass (foot wielding light sabers!), but in the movie…not so much. Also, iirc, his cough was made by George Lucas coughing into a can connected to a microphone. Thank goodness Dooku didn’t beg for his life at the end, which would’ve severely compromised his character. He was fleshed out a lot in the Dark Horse ‘Clone Wars’ series. I was slightly curious during the opera scene when Palpatine continued his seduction of Anakin by telling him about Darth Plagueis the Wise. Anakin must’ve been very distracted by his ‘visions’ of Padme dying to not pick up on how the Chancellor would know anything about the Sith. Order 66…one question I’ve had about this, regarding the Clone troops: was the order programmed into them when they were first trained/grown, or were they briefed about it later. Did they obey it simply out of the fact they were the perfect soldiers and never questioned orders? When you mentioned how Anakin and Obi-Wan were blood brothers in terms of shared battles, etc., can’t it be said some clones might’ve felt the same way, especially if many were saved by those same Jedi? Either way, if, years later, a Clone Trooper had ever been brought up on charges on the slaughter of the Jedi, he could, in all honesty, say, ‘I was only following orders.’ I don’t know if this had been intentional or not, but the first youngling Anakin is about to kill, looks suspiciously like Anakin at the end of Ep1 during the Celebrations. There also appeared to be some resonance between certain scenes in the movie, and events in real life. The lines, as in Amidala’s liberty dying or Anakin’s ‘You’re either with me, or you’re my enemy’, seem to mirror similar lines or events involving the administration at the time. One last note…when Luke is given to the Lars family on Tatooine, John Williams gives a musical wink by playing a few notes from ‘Harry Potter’. =)
That one about Order 66 was answered in the Clone Wars CGI show (Well it was cut material that they put out before Disney shut them down, but I think it still counts). Essentially, the Clone Troopers have organic chips placed into them at the embryonic stage, by order of Palpatine, that make them obey his commands. Protocol 66, as it's called, is a sleeper program; as it is referenced (even stated at least once) that the clones know how to deal with Jedi. The explanation given by the Kaminoans once the chips are discovered is that they inhibt the clones' inherent aggressive nature from Jango.
I know this is an older video, but I have to comment. Obi-Wan uses Form 3 Soresu. This is the most defensive of the lightsaber forms. It focuses on defensive movements, and basically outlasting one’s opponent. Niman is Form 6, it try’s to be the most balanced and adaptable lightsaber form, including using the Force in combat. Form 1 is Shi-Cho, the most basic lightsaber form. Form 5 is Shien and Djem So. Form 5 takes elements of Form 3, but focuses more on offense. Shien deals with redirecting blaster shots, while Djem So deals with lightsaber wielding opponents. Anakin/Vader and Luke uses Djem So.
Well, I mean - do you really think someone like Gorge Lucas is going to tell Christopher "Special Forces War Hero Maybe Spy Who Knows?" Lee 'no' when it comes to how to portray his character? I remember seeing a behind-the-scenes feature where Samuel Jackson basically asks about the lightsabers and what the colors mean, and when Lucas told him "red are the bad guys, blue and green are the goodies" Jackson said "Well, maybe Windu could have a purple lightsaber?" To which Lucas replied "He could have a purple lightsaber" - my point is that I don't think he was someone who could tell his more established actors "no" regarding something. Even though it seemed like a fairly immediate decision with lore justifications not considered it worked out in Windu's case. I just wish either Jackson or Lee spoke up regarding Grievous' portrayal from absolute BAMF to cowardly asthmatic.
To my mind, the Republic military was about winning the war; the Imperial military was about maintaining the peace. This is how the Rebel Alliance wrong-footed the Imperials on many occasions, because in destroying the Jedi, the Empire has effectively replaced them as peace keepers.As a purely aggressive military force ready for a total war scenario however, the Empire seems completely lacking. Its all about the exertion of force and the display of power rather than competence and military ability. In that respect, it is encapsulated perfectly in the difference between Anakin and Vader. Anakin is a skilled warrior yet to reach his full potential; Vader projects fear and power but is ultimately weak underneath, like the Empire itself. He seems extremely limited in his Force powers to choking non-Force sensitives and throwing objects around if he really concentrates. It is more than slightly ridiculous that no Jedi he fights ever thought to simply use the Force to push the buttons on his Atari button control box and cut his head off. This really never occurred to any Jedi he fought ever? Really? They were all blind or drunk or high on death sticks, I suppose? Its a bit difficult to miss it an Atari computer sticking out of someone's chest I would think. Or just stay above him. Simple observation would tell you he can't raise his arms very high. Or just...be really fast! How fast do you think he can move? Or just throw some water on him. Defeating Vader should NOT be very difficult. Vader was weak and propped up only by technology and the projection of force, just like the Empire itself.
Late to the party, but I wanted to bring up some points I believe counter to this argument. Or maybe it would be more appropriate to say I'm going to state my own opinion on the matter? Because while I do agree, to a point, that the Empire's military wouldn't be as effective as the Old Republic military, I don't agree with your judgment that they would have been that much less effective or the correlation between the military and Vader. Vader is quite powerful in the Force, even despite his handicaps both physically and in his connection to the Force itself. That's quite literally the point of that. The contrast between Anakin's raw power and Vader's raw power is to emphasize both how powerful Anakin was and how hampered he had become as Darth Vader. Yes, in the movies, Vader is only ever really shown using basic feats of the Force, but the EU makes it clear he's capable of doing much more than that and that even if he wasn't, he can do those things with ridiculous amounts of power behind them. It should be pointed out that one of those people he Force Choked wasn't even remotely in the same part of the galaxy as he was when he did so. At the very least, he wasn't in the same system. Space is ridiculously vast and huge, even from just one system to another, never mind to another part of the galaxy entirely. How much power do you think Vader would have had to reach out across the galaxy and choke someone on the other side of it? I should also point out that Vader, as an experienced warrior and tactician would be well aware of his own strengths and weaknesses. The EU (before Disney made it non-canon) went into detail about how Vader changed his fighting style to adjust for the very fact that he now had a glaring weakness right there on his chest. Even in the movies, from what I recall, it's clear from the way he holds his lightsaber that he's quite literally protecting his center, particularly his chest. Even if someone did go after his obvious weakness (which has happened quite a few times in the EU), it wouldn't matter because Vader is very good at defending it. I do believe (unless I'm mistaken) that Vader sometimes even used that as a ploy to lull his opponent into thinking that they could outmaneuver him and strike his weak point but would viciously counter them when they tried. As for the military of the Empire, I'd argue that a lot of its leaders were actually quite capable commanders and tacticians. What's unfortunate is that a lot of the Grand Moffs let their ambitions get in the way of those under their jurisdiction (like Tarkin). Basically, and this is just me personally, I think the Imperial Military was actually pretty effective and would have been nigh unstoppable if the moffs were either less concerned about advancing themselves or more competent (or both in some cases).
So, that douchebag Filoni retconned Grievous' backstory because he thought "he was too sympathetic" (sympathetic villains.. in STAR WARS? HAVE YOU SEEN STAR WARS, FILONI!?), making his cybernetic enhancements VOLUNTARY - he makes him into a whiny bitch who wanted to be a Jedi but couldn't, and that's why he hates Jedi and why he changed himself into such a cyborg. It absolutely RUINS the character, and the point of why the character exists as a thematic and somewhat literal forerunner to Darth Vader. I just heard about this a day ago because I just started giving a shit about SW again (my mistake) and luckily it seems the response from fans is overwhelmingly negative, but good god, I don't know why they thought that was a good idea.
Soresu, Form III, is Obi-Wan's chosen form. His humility is why he is *the* master of Soresu and why he was chosen to take down Grievous by the rest of the Council. Matthew Stover, author of the greatest Star Wars book I've ever read, the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, which I still consider canon.
Ian McDiarmid is so perfect in these movies. He seems like such a nice man, yet he plays the greatest villain in cinema history. He's not just a great villain because he can play evil so well, but because he can fool the other characters into believing that his intentions are good. This perhaps may include tricking himself into thinking that his actions aren't evil. Although, I'm more inclined to believe that Anakin is the one that believes that his actions aren't evil but are good. Still,I'm more inclined to believe that deep down Palpatine knows that he is doing evil but he just doesn't give a damn.
This is what quality content looks like.
Man, I don't think you should ever apologise for 'geeking out'. Your audience is composed entirely of geeks. No commoner is here watching a Star Wars rumination - just fellow geeks.
I've watched these ruminations multiple times and I still can't get enough.
This was brilliant. Great work Arch, really! Although I'm not a fan of the prequels (to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the movies in general, I prefer the expanded universe stuff and Kotor 1 & 2 are actually my favorite "stories" set in the SW universe). After your rumination on episode 3 though, I think I'm going to give them another chance. At the end, when you talked about Padme and Anakin, I almost started tearing up myself. You really gave me a new perspective on these characters, things that I have never considered before. Thank you for that!
By the way, you're probably the only person on TH-cam I could listen to for hours without getting bored, I was actually kind of disappointed that this video was "only" 1 hour and 50 minutes long ... :P
The death of Aayla Secura broke my heart when I was young...yes I was in love with a blue Twi'lek Lady. I had her comics! We went through mutated Anzati together god dammit!
I am well you. I loved her too.
Re-listening to this on the last night of our vacation, because I love ROTS.
The bit around 36 minutes is one of my favorite Lore rants where he says, "wouldn't it be interesting if the jedi actually treated Anakin like family, other than a thing." And then we move to the opera scene.
Powerful. Well done, Lore.
I took my friends to see this in theaters the day it came out. I will love them forever because they cried when the Jedi died.
I remember looking at them with a smile thinking, "These are my people."
The scene on Mustafar when Anakin spills the beans to Padme and lays out his 'we can rule the galaxy together' plan also shows one of the core ways and reasons the Sith operate the way they do: Anakin has bowed down to Sidious and joined the Sith. IMMEDIATELY he plans to overthrow Palpatine and rule himself. This is because, while embracing the dark side and drinking ALL the Kool-Aid the good deep within him knows Palpatine is evil and must be opposed, and realized that the only way to do that was to join and then betray Palpatine and take over. Again, the Sith strategy is all based on using the truth, so the tactic to being a Sith is to horribly abuse your apprentice to the point where they do think you are evil and they do think you should be opposed and they now only they can do that and only by becoming MORE powerful in the dark side but they will still need help and so they will need an apprentice. Then of course the Master will always want to kill the Apprentice before they become too powerful and so the best way to do that is for the Master to begin to train a new apprentice to replace them.
+William Ozier it still bothers me why Sidious saved Anakin's life after that phrase... Pity? Pride? I cringe myself every time I hear it!
that is the effectiveness of the rule of 2.
@@Elizaveta7155 he didn't know, it happened on mustafar, prior the obiwan fight
I really like you're view of whether or not Palpatine actually cared for Anakin. If I remember correctly we actually see him kneel down and place his hand on Anakin as if to comfort him.
Though his willingness to abandon Anakin in return does seem to undermined this, I think it's perfectly in Palpatine's character to put his own goals and what he thinks is best for himself over someone who is actually a friend.
4 years before SOLO even touched the Droid Rights idea, you brought it up. Cool.
Thank you. This is the perfect defence of the movie (and also sorta the prequels in general) that still acknowledges the flaws.
1:00:33 I don't think that means he is or was a Gray Jedi. I think that he is trying to entice Anakin into becoming a slave of the dark side by letting him know that to become more powerful, he must free himself from being a slave of the Jedi dogmas, but note that he doesn't say that also means that he must also one day free himself from being a slave of Sith dogmas, that means he is not technically a Gray Jedi. The Jedi and Sith are two absolutes, both of their views are narrow, you know this. All he is doing is giving Anakin a half truth and making it appear as a whole truth, making him understand that the morals of the Jedi and Sith are more relative than both sides care to admit, so that Anakin will feel more at ease making his transition to the dark side. In fact, there are few or no moral differences between the Jedi and Sith dogmas, they are just guidelines, nothing more, nothing less.
Obi-Wan used Soresu, not Niman, and the Niman you're thinking of is Shii-Cho.
Also, if I remember correctly, Shii-Cho was considered insufficient on its own as a style, and was intended to be used as a jumping-off point to learn more effective styles. It's extremely unlikely a Jedi with the rank of master wouldn't have moved on to another of the six.
@@JayTheRed602 There is one jedi who was a master of shii-cho, he trained the young kids at the temple and faced Anakin when he executed order 66 in te temple. I think it was in a game or comic.
@@vegeta4693214 I'm pretty sure Kit Fisto primarily used Shii-Cho, but I could be remembering wrong.
@@scottphillips8607 Yes, he uses that style as his main I think.
I love these videos man. This is the level of analysis and thought I crave. Short videos filled with quips, jokes, and lists can be fun, but this is real analysis. Keep it up man, theres definitely an audience for long form well thought out analysis.
Kashyyyk is kind of like anti Coruscant. Layers of trees, instead of layers of buildings.
1:38:12 Best moment in the entire video. The way in which Archy speaks is magnificent.
In the words of Count Dooku: "I've been looking forward to this!"
I like the theory that RedLetterMedia brought forth in regards to the Jedi Counsel’s Downfall and how a Sith was able to cohabitate without the Jedi being aware of the Sith and ties in with your question of could Anikin’s dreams have been influenced by Sidious.
They put forth that perhaps how that was able to happen was because Sidious was not only “clocking” himself from their detection(obviously) but while also clouding their minds and judgement ever so slightly. Not so much so that they’d notice, but just enough that they’d make decisions without for thinking them through. An example would be how Mace Windu confronted Palpatine when he went to arrest him. He went in woefully unprepared, with nearly no backup, and allowed himself to appear as though he were the aggressor(which he kinda was) and attacking a defenseless senator. This act then began the toppling dominos that led to the fall of the Jedi Order and the Republic. Well, that and JarJar began the toppling of the Republic...
I rewatch this all the time Lore. Love it. The novelization by Matthew stover is truly superb, and I love that you refer to it. Matthew stover wrote some great star wars books. Very cinematic style of writing.
"As all that pain fed into his power which was maintaining his life just enough to make him feel more pain in this horrible, horrible loop." That's how Sion got started isn't it. That's how he kept on going and became incredibly powerful when the Sith came crashing down all around him.
Revenge of The Sith is amazing, I believe ESB and ANH are the best films in the saga, but RoTS is my favorite.
When you said "heat of the moment", the Asia song come into my head & now won't leave.
6 years later and now the prequels especially ROTS are now looked upon fondly by the general fandom. ROTS really is the most Star Wars of all the Star Wars films.
Great video, sir, but I can't agree with Palpatine being a grey Jedi. Conniving, mastermind Sith? Yes, but the reason he can't be a grey Jedi is because he doesn't seek unity between the light and the dark side of the force. The entire plot to get Anakin to the darkside was a ploy to create a Galactic empire and ultimately stagger the lightside of the force by purging the Jedi. This shifts the force heavily to the darkside's favor, which is indicative to Sith, not grey Jedi.
I understand what you mean about him being able to survive and plot while being so close to the Jedi, but it was all ultimately an act. Palpatine wasn't using the lightside of the force to hide from the Jedi, he was simply suppressing his darkside of the force to the extent of being latent.
solid plagueis advice,sidius was just making use of what his master taught him,co cover himself with the cloak of the mundane ;)
Sidious is basically Revan, pre mind wipe, he is definitely a grey Jedi. Though I would argue that later on he has been corrupted by the dark side.
Sorry for the length of this…but hey...a 2 hour video is probably only average length by your standards so I don’t think a 4 page response will be all that off-putting for you.
You know Arch...while I love listening to you express your views in almost every case including these films, I have to say that I view some of these matters entirely differently from you. Maybe I shouldn’t say entirely. That’s too strong. My views are just a bit different but they change the take-away of the scene in a significant manner.
There are several points of discussion that you raise that I’m not even going to touch because I just don't have the time. I disagree entirely with the Palpatine is a Grey Jedi theory for countless reasons, but I don’t want to argue I simply want to discuss. And there are other ideas you offer that I would like to respond to in the future. Instead I’ll focus on the events which lead up to what is one of my favorite scenes in the book. NOT THE MOVIE. But the book.
Now, you mention the books and the ROTS novelization several times throughout these ruminations. Given that you’ve read it, I’d like to draw your attention to the manner in which I view the relationship between Anakin and Palpatine, and the reaction that Mace Windu had to it.
The Palpatine vs. Mace Windu scene is fairly controversial because people cannot agree on who actually won the fight. For my purposes in this discussion, that is not important. Personally it doesn’t matter to me if you think Palpatine could crush Windu or if Windu would have won if Anakin hadn’t shown up. The reason I bring this scene up is because the way it was carried out in the books served each character well from a storytelling point of view (at least in the novel though not in the film itself). This is because it’s THE moment when Anakin changes sides, and up until it happens, nobody could have said whether he would or not. Now you obviously appreciate the scene as you included it amongst your favorites. But in the book, the scene has so much more impact because it was built up to more effectively. And what makes it great is that no character involved actually KNEW what would happen.
First point. The “trust” that you say contributed to Palpatine’s conversion of Anakin. You said that what Palpatine does most beautifully is tell the truth. I think you’re JUST off the mark there. I think what he does best is he intermingles bits of truth, legend, fantasy, and outright fiction to the point that each are indistinguishable from each other from Anakin’s point of view. Up to a certain point anyway. Because you see, Anakin (in the books) isn’t a moron. There are several points in time when Palpatine’s criticisms of the Jedi and more…sinister/dubious pronouncements cause Anakin unease. He even experiences flashes of anger toward Palpatine for the first time. And by the time we get through the Opera scene, Anakin has reached a point where he’s just beginning to show signs of willingness to look beyond his unfavorable attitude toward the Sith in general on the basis that he now has hope of learning the technique to prevent Padme from dying.
And this is where we get the subtle difference between my view of Palpatine and yours with regard to his approach to Anakin. You called it trust. I call it justifiable arrogance. Palpatine loves to gloat. Now to his credit, Palpatine doesn’t tend to gloat unless he has good reason to. By all rights the odds were in his favor when he taunted Luke decades later about the fates that awaited the rebels. He has an incredible amount of power, cockiness, and confidence in his ability to dominate others. There is perhaps no stronger expression of this than his encouragement of Luke to draw his lightsaber when he knew that Vader would step in to block the blow.
A similar thing comes into play when he reveals himself to Anakin. He does not truly trust Anakin to do the right thing from his point of view or something to that effect. He’s not trusting in some vision that he has foreseen. He’s relishing the moment. He’s taking pride in just how thoroughly he’s played Anakin. He trusts that he’s waggled such a tantalizing carrot before Anakin’s nose that the boy will not attack him. And he’s right. Calling the foundation of this relationship trust carries too much of a positive connotation and it also implies a joint effort between the two to work together. Only one person’s actions truly shaped the foundation of the relationship between the two.
Now as I said this is still all about trust. The beauty of Anakin’s predicament is that it reveals his humanity and desire to act the way a Jedi should and also cling to the one he loves. And he realizes he cannot have both…though the argument could be made that this is only because of fear. He had no problem with the idea that he might sever his ties to the order in favor of leaving with Padme. But that was before the visions. Once he reached the point where he believed she would die, fleeing was not going to be a viable course of action. He could not lose her and he needed knowledge, whether of Jedi or Sith origin that would change her ostensible fate. The intensity of the internal debate raging inside of him stems from the fact that he’s grappling with the promise of Palpatine’s alleged knowledge and the chance to save Padme…but he also knows what Palpatine is and all through this section of the movie, his debate is ONLY concerned with what to do because of Padme. He believes Palpatine is wrong. He sees his monstrous actions for what they are. He doesn’t necessarily (and does not appear) to agree with Palpatine’s views regarding the nature of the Force, the dogmatic view of the Jedi, the point of view argument etc. At least not yet. All of that either flies in the face of what he believes at that point in time time, is over his head, or just not of interest to him. All he wants is to save his wife. And because of this, Palpatine doesn’t actually KNOW that he’s ensnared Anakin. But be believes he has. It’s technically still a gamble. But one he believes he’s won. And what makes Palpatine awesome is that he’s not afraid of consequence. He’s that confident. It’s the same thing that made the stand off between the Emperor and Luke so great. It gave me the sense that up until the moment when Luke tosses aside his lightsaber, that the emperor had NEVER failed to get what he wanted. That doesn’t mean he’d never been wrong or had never made mistakes etc. But he’d never failed to get what he wanted or been denied up to that point. It’s not based on trust. It’s based on confidence which however justified verges on arrogance.
But trust is still at the heart of all of this. You expressed why Obi-wan’s reaction to the assignment the council gives Anakin was such a beautiful touch and I agree with all that you said there. But a similar effect comes into play with Anakin and Windu in a wonderfully ironic way once Palpatine reveals himself. You claimed that Windu walked into the Chancellor’s office with typical Jedi arrogance. He did not. If you had only watched the film, and that alone, sure, I’d understand how you could get that impression. But since you accept the book as canon, I would advise you to reread it. I love the character of Mace Windu because of that book. In that novel he argues several times with Yoda and Obi-wan (and each had different points of views and good points to make revolving around strategy the nature of the war and what to do about Anakin etc.) and speculates as to whether or not Anakin, the Chancellor etc. are trustworthy and he doubts this with good reason. By the time that Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, Anakin is not at all certain what he will do. That’s the reason why I mildly disagree with you for saying that Palpatine won the moment Obi-wan left the planet in pursuit of Grievous. That was CERTAINLY a great factor in allowing Palpatine the unrestricted access he now had to Anakin which he exploited to great effect. But it was more like an insurance policy of sorts rather than a guarantee that events would play out as they did. And the reason for this is because Mace Windu made a choice. And if he’d made a different one, Anakin might have too.
Once Anakin learns the truth behind Palaptine’s role in the war, he goes directly to Mace Windu. Up to this point, Windu has been mistrustful of Anakin and wary of the danger he could represent, especially if the Chosen One prophecy had been misinterpreted. And what happens next is irony at its finest. Mace Windu weighs the decision of facing what he acknowledges will be the most dangerous adversary he has or could ever face WITH or WITHOUT the Chosen One at his side. He deliberates. And he ultimately chooses to leave Anakin behind because he can see the emotional distress the boy is in. He believes Anakin would be too susceptible to act rationally and without the dark side’s sway in his current state. But he appreciates what Anakin has done. In an attempt to reassure him, he says that if what Anakin has told him is true, the boy will have earned his trust. He then orders him to the stay behind for his own good as well as the good of the Republic. Windu realizes that immediate action is required and in the book, confers with Yoda on what to do. So when he walked into the Chancellor’s office with the rest of the Jedi in tow, to call it typical Jedi arrogance is too dismissive. It robs the moment of the irony that it’s charged with in the book.
If he had trusted Anakin, and allowed Anakin to help him arrest (and they did go there to ARREST the Chancellor), it’s possible Anakin might never have fallen. Windu didn’t try to assassinate the Chancellor until he realized just how powerful, twisted and overwhelming a threat he was. Had Anakin been able to be honest about what motivated his need for Palpatine without fear of narrow minded Jedi imposed recrimination for his being in love…had Windu known that in threatening to kill Palpatine (which was a fully justified course of action given the circumstances) he was also threatening to doom Padme… who knows what might have been different. But because Windu left Anakin behind, Anakin was given the opportunity to make a choice of his own. In both cases the choice was made because of the fear of the possible outcome. Windu feared Anakin’s susceptibility to the call of darkness. Anakin feared the loss of Padme. Both made a carefully measured and conservative choice in order to protect what they were most dedicated to. And both lost. The only winner was Palpatine.
To say the Jedi lost the moment Obi-wan left Coruscant is NOT incorrect. But it’s a little too simplistic and takes the onus off of Anakin who also had a stake and a say in this. Palpatine didn’t force him to do what he did. He made the choice to do what he did as you also noted with regard to the children in the temple. Because Windu was ignorant of Anakin’s attachment to Padme. Because Anakin felt the Jedi did not trust him and could not be trusted in turn. Because Palpatine cloaked arrogance and self confidence underneath the mask of trust. Because of all of that, Anakin fell. And that is something that is just so much more complex than “Jedi arrogance” or Yoda’s failure. Not that those aren’t factors in all of this…
Love your stuff Arch. Just wanted to weigh in on the issue.
Hope Arch reads this. Thought provoking.
Evilknightz
Long if anything else.
*late reply but I rather enjoy the length of these, I can play these while I am working!
Almost 40 years of age and I freely admit I cry when Order 66 happens no matter how many times I watch the film. The entire sequence is emotionally punishing because yes, the mind fills in the blanks and makes us know exactly what's going on even if we don't see it and even if we never liked the Order and the Council.
As I was rewatching the final fight, I thought of a small change in the dialogue that makes it better and ties in something we saw in TCW (namely Anakin's growing distrust of the Council, if not the Order).
Obi: "I have failed you Anakin. I have failed you."
Anakin: "I should never have trusted the Order."
Obi: "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is corrupt!"
Anakin: "From my point of view, the Jedi are corrupt!"
I respectfully disagree. There is one paragraph in the novel that sets the standards of the duel. It's along the lines of "This was not Sith against Jedi; this was not light against. It had nothing to do with duty, philosophy, morals or religion. This was Anakin against Obi-Wan. Just the two of them. Personally. And the damage they had done to each other." I would've had their dialogue like this....
Obi-Wan: "I didn't want this for you!"
Anakin: "YOU BROUGHT THIS ON YOURSELF!!"
Obi-Wan: "I only wanted what was best for you, Anakin! I wasn't prepared to train someone like you!"
Anakin: "THATS YOUR FAILING!! NOT MINE!!"
Obi-Wan: "...I have failed you, Anakin... I have failed you...but I won't abandon you to the dark side!!"
Anakin: "THATS NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE!!"
Obi-Wan: "WELL THEN YOU ARE LOST!!"
I agree entirely on the whole "no" thing, it wouldn't have taken much to take that from 'campy' to sustaining that mood with like a scream of rage. Hell, before he even says "no" you hear him growling at he is just breaking that lab in all his pure dark side power and all it needed was just like this final outburst of just pure emotion.
the NOOOOOOO honestly didn't bother me that much maybe because i'm still stuck riding the high of the perfect starwars movie from order 66 to the end, maybe if i rewatch the the NOOO scene on its own it would bother me more then it does.
The problem with the noo is the delivery. I've watched the latin spanish version of this (latin spanish is my borned language) and the nooo has more rage to it. There it works, in english it doesn't.
Also Archengeia I think you severely misunderstand Windu's place in all of this. Yes Palpatine was more than likely keeping him alive but Mace kept up with Palpatine all the same by use of Vaapad. He didn't use the dark side of the force in that fight. Windu fed off PALPATINE'S anger. Vaapad is remastered Juyo turned into a weapon that feeds off rage of the opposing dark side users. Only two people have ever mastered it and one fell to the dark side. The other was Mace Windu and the two fought with everything they had. If Palpatine had continued the fight and if Anakin didn't step in then it is likely that Palpatine may have succumbed to his own anger however doubtful that may be and resort to force based powers. Likewise Windu didn't go in there with the mindset that this will be easily done.
He brought Kit Fisto in there with him a renown master from the clone wars. If this were an easy fight Kit would have been left at the temple and Windu would have brought along someone else. They left one of THE Premier lightsaber specialists of the order on standby at the temple. Cin Dralig is a master of all forms of lightsaber combat and he was said to be on Grevious's level. And Yoda his arrogance is not looking outside of his bubble. He didn't suspect Palpatine until the end which was what caused this and you can see this reflected on Windu by his reaction to finding out Palpatine was the original sith lord. All in all I respect some of what you said in this video but mistakes like in my other comment related to Soresu and as others pointed out that Shii Cho is the most basic form of lightsaber combat.
After watching this review it has give me a different perspective on this movie now.
Very interesting to hear that Padme wasn't even going to die and that it was a manipulation trick by Palpatine
Archengaia, Obi-Wan Kenobi uses Soresu(form III) not Niman(form VI), also Niman is not basic form in any way, shape or form, Soresu is defensive form used mostly to fight agains enemies with blasters.
If there is one thing I don't agree with, it's the Grey Jedi point. I don't think you can do what he did in this series in totality and be anything but black, dark, and evil. The man created a super weapon to destroy planets! He's talented, intelligent, able to plan, and put the pieces on the board well. He may take aspects of the light, but I don't think he has that kind of....tapping into it. Anyways, I don't want to dwell on that just say I really, really don't agree on that point.
The movie itself was pretty good. I remember seeing it early (had really bad seats, but oh well). It really was all over once Obi Wan left the planet, they were just done at that point. He was the one guy that while there could have done something about this. Props to him for winning his fight, but sadly the result just didn't matter. He beat a death machine, but one that didn't matter in the greater scheme.
I'll still be glad for those two last big fights. Yoda and Obi Wan took on some amazing opponents. Sadly they didn't get the ideal result. If both had won then who knows how things go from there. But only one of them won. And sadly things just went downhill from there.
The order to wipe out the Jedi...just watching Yoda react to that. Yoda just barely surviving and Obi Wan just getting lucky.
This movie will forever be my favorite Star Wars movie. I love it so so so much.
The novel has so many great points in it that damn near save the entire Prequel Trilogy that were never even alluded to in the films.
Like the perfect Jedi trap.
Or Yoda's realization that the "pious babble about Letting-Things-Pass-Out-Of-Your-Life" dogma only works because the Jedi routinely take children from their homes before those connections can be established.
Anakin loved and was declared a heretic.
Also, everything about Clones and Droids both being completely expendable.
A very intruiging rumination that's actually uplifted this film significantly for me!
I will definitely rewatch this film, taking a very close look at all the physical acting.
Thanks Arch!
46:50 I agree with you, Palpatine was a father figure and Jedi Council didn't give a shit about Anakin :) Obi-Wan was more like an older brother.
I've seen a fairly looking reliable article saying that there was originally going to be a scene after Anakin's defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan where Anakin begs his former master to help him as he's burning. I can definitely understand why it wasn't included if true, but man, that would have made the scene even more powerful.
I was in the emperors hammer as well as another group called the crimson strike fleet. I think they had merged with another group called the star vipers. Tie fighter consumed years of my life.
Amazing work Arch, it's great to see someone give this movie the credit it deserves. I love this movie, heck I just rewatched it last week. I would put it above Return of the Jedi. It is one of the most emotionally charged films i've ever seen and I am not ashamed to admit that I cry alot. When the kid walk up to Anakin and says: "They are to many, what are we going to do?" That moment makes my very soul hurt, knowing what is coming.
I would like to point out one thing though about the moive. During the battle on Utapo (was it the name?), the place where Obi Wan battles Grevious, we see a clone take out two of those spider-droids by himself. This was, for me at least, very telling on how skilled the clones were as fighters. Just as you say it "food for thought". This is by the way one of the best ruminations you've done, alongside FFVI, I teared up more than once. Can't wait for Episode IV.
I have really been enjoying your Star Wars ruminations. Can't wait for episodes IV, V, and VI. I'm sure you already have a loaded video schedule, so it's crazy I say this, but have you considered a sort of bonus rumination at the end pertaining to the "expanded universe" with the good/bad that came out of it, that you have experienced? I've not seen/read/played anything from that outside of Shadow of the Empire for N64, and you are the person I would enjoy listening to if any had an impact in your love of Star Wars.
wow, this was really fun to watch. Your in depth analysis of the social dynamics between the characters and the force representations of those emotions was very real and meaningful. Makes me like the movie much more after seeing this. It really was a good movie.
Nice video. This three part series has given me a new appreciation for the prequel movies
fitting that your rumination of the best prequel is your best rumination
After playing KOTOR2 i saw the force not as a dark and light side or good and evil side but as an order and chaos side. So I could see Palpatine using the "light" and "dark" side of the force for evil
The best Star Wars ruminations yet. Truly wonderful, but there's so much great stuff you're producing recently I don't have time to watch it all! A good problem to have, though!
Your bit on Sidious as a Grey Jedi was fascinating though, but I have to admit it makes entirely too much sense. Great job as always Arch.
I couldn’t agree more about the jarring “Nooooo” scene at the end. To this day it BLOWS MY MIND that NO ONE associated with the production of the film watched that back during shooting and said “Yeah, we gotta take that out, it’s stupid.” Hell, weren’t there any test screenings!? I just can’t fathom how in any universe but this one that that got left in the film. Smh...
Gray Jedi thoughts... That would make SOOOOO much more sense than having Palpatine be straight up darkside Sith from the get go. It finally explains why no one can sense his presence as a darkside user. Awesome insight!
I always found it interesting that the filmmakers chose to portray Padme's and Anakin's death and Vader's birth side by side because they are both on operating tables. Both are in similar states of care, Anakin/Vader with Palpatine who may or may not care about him, and Padme who is with Obi-Wan, who genuinely seems to care(as Padme is his only remaining connection to Anakin, his brother) Yoda, who seems to not care at all about Padme and is only there to see how evil Anakin's offspring is as well as survey potential force power, and Bail Organa who is there because he spent time in the Senate with Padme and got to know her as a friend. Obviously there are different numbers of people, with varying emotions directed at Padme and Anakin/Vader as they are on the operating tables, but the overall emotional state of everyone involved seems almost to be either neutral or disinterested. That, and the fact that both are tended to by droids that are only helping or trying to help because that is their job made it so clear to me how similar the deaths of Anakin and Padme are. That both die, so similarly, made the movie that much more interesting to me.
Again, what the heck. I swear Obi-Wan was a Soresu master...like the rest of internet and lore describes? Just a bone to pick here.
You forgot the overall symbolism within the last duels of the movie and how it ties into political undertones such as imperialism and tyranny. Anakin and Obi-Wan fighting, represents the death of industry, as they fight on this industrial planet, destroying everything they touch. It represents the halting of growth and industry. All the while it’s cross cutted with Yoda and Palpatine fighting in the senate chamber, representing the death of liberty and free speech. This movie has many serious political undertones, such as Anakin saying “you either with me or my enemy”, which is the along the lines of the same dogma that Bush said “either your with us or your with the terrorists”
Just watch Camille Paglia’s thoughts on it, she hails the finale to this movie as the greatest piece of art in the last 30 years.
an hour of waiting for the train home after a 12 hour work-day... doesn't seem so bad with this new star wars rumination. (english is not my first language ^^)
Thanks for the +1 on my comment!
I don't subscribe to the idea that telling the truth is automatically not a manipulation. In my opinion it matters how and when you tell the truth and for what purpose. Palpatine understood that ''the truth'' made for a much more powerful weapon then ''the lie''. If his claims had no basis his words would had fallen on deaf ears. But he pointed, correctly what was wrong with the system but took great care in directing the reactions to his manipulations. It is litteraly him starting a revolution for the right reasons and the guiding it to end in his best interests. Quite masterfull
The Clone Wars mini-series cartoon did a good job of showing how awesome General Grievous was.
Man, this is awesome! It´s so interesting to hear your views and theories about the movie. So many things that I´ve never thought about or even knew before I watched your rumination. Oh and it´s fun to finally hear someone say positive things about this film and not just talking shit about it. I thought I was one of the few who really liked this movie, haha. Again, great work and many interesting theories and conclusions. Keep it up!
This video is just excellent, exactly the kind of deep and thougthfull analysis I need and like. Thanks!
Thank you Arch, what you said at 1:00:00, Sidious quote, my point that I wanted to make was this: It doesn't mean he does understand it.
1:29:50-ish I know it's a very unfortunate moment, but I'm kinda glad she didn't just die of a lack of a will to live despite her having the twins(I forgot why I thought that was the canonical version all these years as I haven't rewatched the prequels in years, but him "poisoning" her by accident makes much more sense with that force choke)
It was a great run, i really like how you see the prequels. Have you tried rewatching the movies in the "machete" order? That is: 4, 5, 2, 3, 6. It makes a lot of sense, and honestly, the transitions 5-2 and 3-6 are just awesome.
I would also like to point out Crystal Skull which came out a few years later and bombed horribly as well
Awesome work as always Arch, keep it up.
So glad you agree that the EU is still canon. That whole thing is literally the only reason I can tolerate the prequels as being part of continuity. The comics and games and books fleshed out these characters, which made me appreciate the movies even if none of what is in the books was the intention behind the films. It's a complete waste of (my) time to just write off everything I've spent my formative years in life reading and exploring and getting excited about because that's what the new direction for this franchise is now.
I understand that some things will undoubtedly be completely contradicted by the new movies, basically everything that happened after Return of the Jedi in the books will probably never fit in with the new movies...but KOTOR? The Darth Bane books? (of which are actually referenced in the RoTS novel, on top of other EU works) What about the Darth Plageuis book, which fleshed out a ton of The Phantom Menace and actually made some of the plot points in it make a little bit more sense? None of that happened, the prequels are as ill-conceived and directionless as everyone claims they are?
At least with Star Trek, the new movies acknowledged that everything that came before still happened, they were just erased by time travel.
With Star Wars, everything that came before still happened. But it was just erased by Disney. There isn't a difference between Trek and SW other than that a movie acknowledged it.... so, yeah, I wish people behaved more like you & Lore here. There'd be a lot less angst abound.
I love your review, and I completely agree that this movie in particular gets a lot of undeserving hatred. But, as good as the novels and other works are, I hate that a lot of films around this time, in my opinion, leaned on extra works to flush out what should be covered in a film. I agree with Red Letter Media on this, I shouldn't have to do homework to understand the characters or setting of a movie. Those should add, not be the primary source. But like I said, that is just my opinion.
Awesome rumination... I remember reading the book adaptation of "Revenge of the Sith" and crying reading the last chapters of this book. So I understand your emotions on this story. Revenge of the Sith is a great story, the best of the prequels. It is unfortunate that George Lucas reputation puts a "dark cloud" on this movie.
Revenge of the Sith is second that to Empire Strikes Back. The Force Awakens should be just as good. I can't wait.
I plan to watch the films again using the Machete Order: A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, and Return of the Jedi. It is mentioned that this is best story wise, without ruining Vader's "I am your father" moment.
Good work!!!
Palpatine could be a Grey Jedi. Personality and strategically, he certainly gives that vibe.
Arch could you please do lord of the rings trilogy after this, nothing would be more awesome than you Ruminating those...
Also, though this doesn't service my point about him being portrayed as a "mustache twirling villain" I think we have to consider the type of war we're seeing in the CIS vs. Republic conflict - it's tactically conventional but strategically asymmetrical for the most part, where the tactics on the battlefield are largely conventional but the larger strategy is asymmetrical, with largely unbalanced forces. In this regard the Republic out-performs the separatists. A real-world example would be the American Revolutionary war - in that the big set-piece battles were fought in the format of the day with artillery on the high-ground and maneuvering in ranks, etc, however for the most part the Continental Army was conducting fighting retreats and had to be constantly on the move and constantly falling-back to avoid being destroyed by the British, George Washington, Nathaniel Greene, the 'Swamp Fox', all became famous for their constant escapes and then baiting and attacking the British forces through attrition - when people talk about Grievous being "cowardly" and always escaping you have to understand that this is the same strategy being employed. As many droids as they have they do not have as much money as the Republic nor do they have resources, so these daring attacks and then quick retreats - the constant escapes - are a side-effect of the conflict being fought and I would argue actually attest to the strategic acumen of Grievous - though of course this could be unintentional on Lucas' part.
The noises Vader makes before he says 'nooo' would have been better, he's trying to destroy everything in reach in impotent rage. Loving these videos, episode 4 tomorrow.
Anakin VS Tyrannus - The end of battle was in many ways wrong in my opinion. The very first glimpse of Vader in that fatality was shown. However it´s kinda stupid how Anakin didn´t noticed so obvious realization and look of Dooku towards Sidious. Even more stupid, why a Sith Lord would show terrified fear, almost to the point of tears. If anything he should have been enraged for aleast two reasons; That he failed to a single "not even Jedi Master", and that he have been betrayed by his master. I see a scene where in his last moments his eyes for the very first time start turning into yellow-red where they are both enraged, Anakin and Tyrannus instead.
Anakin becomes Sith - Even in the theater I was like - OH, COME ON!! In the matter of seconds, without any knowledge of the Sith or even a Sith code he suddenly pledged himself and became the Sith - immediately?? Riiiight... "I want to become a Sith. Ok, I am now a Sith"... for frakk sake!
Palpatine´s deformated face - is his / Sidious´s true face. So he was NOT deformed with backfire of force lightning, he was only stripped of his MASK that he wore for almost entire life till that point.
Vader VS Obi-Wan last scene - I agree, Vader burning is one of darkest and most powerfull Sith scenes ever, BUT Obi-Wan simply leaving him in grim pain and fate is still so out of character it doesn´t make any sense.
Vader "Noooo.." - Yeah, should have been solved just by rage smashing everything with a force, even on mute that scene is better.
Grevious portrayal in the movie - Awful, painfully laughable. Of all characters I can´t believe they chose him to be the comic relief in the beginning of a movie. Facepalm.
I loved this video, it opened my ideas to the fact that it was a very good story, even if it required the books to make it so.
Also, I believe that Windu legitimately defeated Sidious, although that is just my opinion. And a point on how Vapaad works; it does not negatively affect Windu. The dark side is channeled around Windu; it does not touch him.
Something that I didn't think of until it was pointed out to me is that this is the first time anakin and grevious meet. They actually never meet face to face in the clone wars show.
I was at s museum for the Holocaust good number of years back, I think I saw order 66 before, but lore wise and watching anything related to order 66 and even the new star wars cartoons that focus on the aftermath after that experience
just hits different as far as the emotion and distress associated with that traumatic event for the universe (despite the faults of the Jedi order)
Palpatine a Gray Jedi? Okay...but you also could go the other way around. The Jedi Order being so clouded by the Dark Side and/or their Doctrines that they even miss the obvious dark presence of a Dark Side Nexus hidding...Palpatine obviously does conseal himself and his Dark Side...He may have studied both sides but he is a Sith afterall...he could use the knowledge of the Jedi teachings to an extend to know how to avoid being detacted...I deem him as wise to do so...
The factor of Palpatine using the dark side to cast a mist around the Jedi and to be disciplined enough to hold back his Dark Side I would consider to be plausible.
45:20 I want SO very badly for Ultros to crash the Opera Scene and kill Palpy.
Funny you mention Padme's rumination around the 1:04:30 mark. I found that scene a few times searching for your rumination on this film.
LEGO Stars Wars the game may have done the birth of Darth Vader better as it has him just destroying all the equipment in the room in anger as soon as he wakes up.
I wonder if he ever saw the "obi Wan has ptsd" TH-cam video.
You come for laughs, you stay for the tears
There's so much that I wanted to add to many of the points you made, but it would be paragraphs upon paragraphs. Perhaps I'll bring them up on future streams if I remember.
I'll say one thing. When Obi-wan says "I win. I have the high ground," I always thought that was stupid to say because that doesn't mean you automatically win. It came off as a warning to Anikan that Obi-wan had won the fight. As I thought about it more, perhaps Obi-wan said that in hopes Anikan would stop fighting, and they no longer would have to try to kill each other. He knew Anikan would still fight him, but deep down Obi-wan didn't want to believe that Anikan was so far gone. As he later proved, he didn't want to kill Anikan, and it was his last ditch effort to salvage their brotherly bond.
When we were kids, anytime I fought my older brother I knew he would never go too far because he was my brother, even though he was bigger and stronger. Perhaps Obi-wan was under the same mentality to try to cope with the situation, even in doubt.
I know this comment is VERY late, but I just want to throw this out there; In regards to your statement about Windu vs. Palpatine, George Lucas debunked that whole "Palpatine let him win" theory. I do think that the idea that he let him win makes a lot of sense and it makes Palpatine's plan seem that much more masterful. But according to the overlord himself, it is nothing more than fan theory/head canon.
One of the many reasons I despise Episode 2 so much, is because it severely misrepresented Yoda's character. They depicted him as a sword-wielding athlete who was just keeping up with Dooku's control over the force. What they should have done is have Yoda not even touch his lightsaber and just destroy Dooku with the force alone. Dooku should have quivered under the pressure of Yoda's angry and disappointed gaze. This is how he was set up in the old trilogy and even in Episode 1, because out of all the Jedi Masters, his control and affinity to the force appeared to be the greatest. Plus his most memorable scene is lifting Luke's ship out of the swamp, even though he was incredibly weakened already and mere hours away from his death. And in Episode 3, I just feel like they, again, underplayed his control over the force, although not nearly to the same extent.
1:34:20 chill bro 🤣🤣 all jokes aside this was a phenomenal video mate, thanks for this and the swtor sith warrior video
As always, a very thought-provoking video and your insights and opinions are always interesting, Archengeia. I need some time to digest this video, but one thing that I personally agree with, partially, is the scene where Darth Vader first draws breath. That literally sends a chill down my spine just thinking about it. But just as in Return of the Jedi where Vader finally acts against the Emperor, so it would have been far more powerful and much less ridicilous, if he was simply channelling the Force, as he does, in silent anger in Revenge of the Sith. It speaks volumes in and by itself.
With regards to your opinion about Palpatine being a grey Jedi - I see your point and *almost* agree, however just because a Sith uses light side powers doesn't mean he's grey. Throughout the canon, there are force users who uses powers that aren't in their force alignment. That would make Kyle Katarn, Bastila Shan, Revan and Juhani all grey Jedi. (I could understand Revan being called grey.... but that's a big topic.)
Well, technically speaking, Kyle Katarn kind of could be considered a Grey Jedi. In fact, in the game Jedi Academy, in the beginning tutorial level where he's tutoring Jaden and Rosh (I think that's their names), he specifically mentions that it's not WHAT side of the Force that you're using, but how you're using it and to what end. Of course, I would also say that Kyle is definitely more light side leaning than dark side, but by that time in the EU, both he and Luke used both sides of the Force to do what they believed was right. As Arch has pointed out himself, light side does not always equal good, just as the dark side does not always equal evil.
Those children were Jedi. Palpatine does say “every single Jedi, is now an enemy of the Republic.” “Do not hesitate, show no mercy.”
True, but it could also be argued that those children were still young enough that they could easily be turned into tools of the Dark Side. And considering how manipulative Palpatine is, and what he did in fact do with young Force users in the future (at least in the EU), that's actually a very feasible possibility. But that's not what happened. Anakin could have chosen to spare the children, if only to make them into tools for Palpatine or himself. But he chose to kill them. Anakin chose that. Granted, Palpatine likely knew that Anakin would do that, but the point remains that murdering the children was Anakin's choice.
I think the biggest problem for Episode III in my opinion is that the film proper itself has many holes, either through character interactions or motivations or actual weaving of the Clone Wars and the fallout of the Jedi.
But if you look at it as an epilogue to The Clone Wars TV series and watch it in that manner, it’s WONDERFUL and really salvages what otherwise would be a broken and forcibly stitched together story.
Form I: Shii-Cho-THIS is the most basic form
Form I, also called "The Way of the Sarlacc," is the most basic form of lightsaber combat -- and the most ancient. For this reason, it is the first form of lightsaber combat that most Jedi learn. It was developed as the Jedi transitioned from using traditional swords to using lightsabers.
The moves of Form I focus on disarming one's opponent without hurting him. Its wide, sweeping motions are useful when facing multiple enemies, but do not work well against lightsaber-wielding opponents.
Form III: Soresu-is what Obi-wan specialized in, pure defense, which became jedi philosophy personified.
Form III, also called "The Way of the Mynock," was developed to defend against blasters. It is characterized by tight, efficient movements that shield the Jedi's body, using the lightsaber primarily as a defensive weapon to deflect blaster bolts.
The practice of Form III is an important reflection of Jedi philosophy, as it emphasizes the Jedi belief in calmness and non-aggression. A Jedi using Form III must center herself in the Force in order to anticipate her opponents' movements and successfully block blaster fire. Obi-wan also specialized in Ataru from when he was a padawan which he uses for his attack, also what he used to kill Maul.
I was going to say this..
Hi I cant seem to find the episode 1 rumination. I think it may not be on TH-cam any more. Can someone please provide a link? Thanks.
I agree with most of your points, but I feel you don't take individual lightsaber forms into account. The Council's decision, for example, to send Kenobi to face Grevious was also motivated by the fact that Kenobi was the reigning mast of form 3 Soresu, which enabled Kenobi to defend and ultimately take advantage of Grevious' disadvantages.
Also, Niman is arguably one of the most difficult forms. The most basic form is Schii-Cho. Kenobi was a master of Soresu, which is a defensive form.
Great rumination.While I think episode 3 is the best of the prequels, its still not quite good in my book.I consider it above average.Anyway I would love to see more movie ruminations.I would love to see your thoughts on Bladerunner and Fight Club.
Without going into full 2 hour detail I'd just like to say that both are amazingly well crafted movies that it's a shame didn't get the recognition they really deserved at the time. I personally put Blade Runner in my Top Whatever list of movies.
Um Archengeia Obi-Wan practices Soresu and has the perfect wall of defense going for him. Niman is the preferred form of lightsaber combat practiced by Jedi Counselors whom use force attacks and minimalist movements like Exar Kun.
Speaking of music. I was positively surprised by what Williams did with the intro - classic Star Wars title theme almost naturally morphing into battle theme. Even the track is called "Star Wars and the Revenge of the Sith", if I remember correctly. This basically set the tone for how entire score for this film felt.
Agreed. The man has some wonderful range in his music.
Archengeia I got to the point where you discuss cybernetic research. I think it is safe to assume that Palpatine started researching that field, because it was known that excessive usage of Dark Side in time leads to excessive physical damage of the user. So maybe Palpatine looked into ways of preseving himself, possibly infinitely?
CrazyChemistPL Wouldn't surprise me. He might not have known about the clone method at this point in time and so was looking into all his possible alternatives.
Archengeia Given the magnitude of his power, influences and resources, I wouldn't be surprised if he was researching anything he considered even slightly plausible and potentially beneficial for him.
If you don't mind, may I discuss your view on Palpatine as a grey Jedi? Do you consider post Order 66 Palpatine as grey still? Because for me it seems like he uses it as a way of finally reject the Light Side, once it stops being useful for him. Palpatine as an Emperor is no longer grey in my opinion.
Another great Rumination, perfect for listening while building machines at work. =)
I took down notes while listening, so they might seem random.
The opening battle…I think the people who made that scene threw in everything, including the kitchen sink into it. Come to think of it, isn’t there a quick scene where a Separatist ship blows up and we see a sink fly off? =)
Anakin’s caring of R2 might be due to his feelings of camaraderie towards the droid, but it might also be due to Padme giving him R2 at the start of the war (as seen in the cartoon micro-series); R2 is Anakin’s connection to Padme throughout the war.
I’ve often wondered about R2 and why he wasn’t wiped like Threepio in at the end. Wiping seems similar to the ‘Death of Personality’ verdict seen in Babylon 5, except one involves people, the other, droids.
General Grievous…from the cartoon series he came across as supremely badass (foot wielding light sabers!), but in the movie…not so much. Also, iirc, his cough was made by George Lucas coughing into a can connected to a microphone.
Thank goodness Dooku didn’t beg for his life at the end, which would’ve severely compromised his character. He was fleshed out a lot in the Dark Horse ‘Clone Wars’ series.
I was slightly curious during the opera scene when Palpatine continued his seduction of Anakin by telling him about Darth Plagueis the Wise. Anakin must’ve been very distracted by his ‘visions’ of Padme dying to not pick up on how the Chancellor would know anything about the Sith.
Order 66…one question I’ve had about this, regarding the Clone troops: was the order programmed into them when they were first trained/grown, or were they briefed about it later. Did they obey it simply out of the fact they were the perfect soldiers and never questioned orders? When you mentioned how Anakin and Obi-Wan were blood brothers in terms of shared battles, etc., can’t it be said some clones might’ve felt the same way, especially if many were saved by those same Jedi? Either way, if, years later, a Clone Trooper had ever been brought up on charges on the slaughter of the Jedi, he could, in all honesty, say, ‘I was only following orders.’
I don’t know if this had been intentional or not, but the first youngling Anakin is about to kill, looks suspiciously like Anakin at the end of Ep1 during the Celebrations.
There also appeared to be some resonance between certain scenes in the movie, and events in real life. The lines, as in Amidala’s liberty dying or Anakin’s ‘You’re either with me, or you’re my enemy’, seem to mirror similar lines or events involving the administration at the time.
One last note…when Luke is given to the Lars family on Tatooine, John Williams gives a musical wink by playing a few notes from ‘Harry Potter’. =)
That one about Order 66 was answered in the Clone Wars CGI show (Well it was cut material that they put out before Disney shut them down, but I think it still counts). Essentially, the Clone Troopers have organic chips placed into them at the embryonic stage, by order of Palpatine, that make them obey his commands. Protocol 66, as it's called, is a sleeper program; as it is referenced (even stated at least once) that the clones know how to deal with Jedi. The explanation given by the Kaminoans once the chips are discovered is that they inhibt the clones' inherent aggressive nature from Jango.
I know this is an older video, but I have to comment. Obi-Wan uses Form 3 Soresu. This is the most defensive of the lightsaber forms. It focuses on defensive movements, and basically outlasting one’s opponent. Niman is Form 6, it try’s to be the most balanced and adaptable lightsaber form, including using the Force in combat. Form 1 is Shi-Cho, the most basic lightsaber form. Form 5 is Shien and Djem So. Form 5 takes elements of Form 3, but focuses more on offense. Shien deals with redirecting blaster shots, while Djem So deals with lightsaber wielding opponents. Anakin/Vader and Luke uses Djem So.
Great reviews enjoyed hearing your thoughts.
Well, I mean - do you really think someone like Gorge Lucas is going to tell Christopher "Special Forces War Hero Maybe Spy Who Knows?" Lee 'no' when it comes to how to portray his character? I remember seeing a behind-the-scenes feature where Samuel Jackson basically asks about the lightsabers and what the colors mean, and when Lucas told him "red are the bad guys, blue and green are the goodies" Jackson said "Well, maybe Windu could have a purple lightsaber?" To which Lucas replied "He could have a purple lightsaber" - my point is that I don't think he was someone who could tell his more established actors "no" regarding something. Even though it seemed like a fairly immediate decision with lore justifications not considered it worked out in Windu's case. I just wish either Jackson or Lee spoke up regarding Grievous' portrayal from absolute BAMF to cowardly asthmatic.
To my mind, the Republic military was about winning the war; the Imperial military was about maintaining the peace. This is how the Rebel Alliance wrong-footed the Imperials on many occasions, because in destroying the Jedi, the Empire has effectively replaced them as peace keepers.As a purely aggressive military force ready for a total war scenario however, the Empire seems completely lacking. Its all about the exertion of force and the display of power rather than competence and military ability.
In that respect, it is encapsulated perfectly in the difference between Anakin and Vader. Anakin is a skilled warrior yet to reach his full potential; Vader projects fear and power but is ultimately weak underneath, like the Empire itself. He seems extremely limited in his Force powers to choking non-Force sensitives and throwing objects around if he really concentrates. It is more than slightly ridiculous that no Jedi he fights ever thought to simply use the Force to push the buttons on his Atari button control box and cut his head off. This really never occurred to any Jedi he fought ever? Really? They were all blind or drunk or high on death sticks, I suppose?
Its a bit difficult to miss it an Atari computer sticking out of someone's chest I would think. Or just stay above him. Simple observation would tell you he can't raise his arms very high. Or just...be really fast! How fast do you think he can move? Or just throw some water on him. Defeating Vader should NOT be very difficult.
Vader was weak and propped up only by technology and the projection of force, just like the Empire itself.
Late to the party, but I wanted to bring up some points I believe counter to this argument. Or maybe it would be more appropriate to say I'm going to state my own opinion on the matter? Because while I do agree, to a point, that the Empire's military wouldn't be as effective as the Old Republic military, I don't agree with your judgment that they would have been that much less effective or the correlation between the military and Vader.
Vader is quite powerful in the Force, even despite his handicaps both physically and in his connection to the Force itself. That's quite literally the point of that. The contrast between Anakin's raw power and Vader's raw power is to emphasize both how powerful Anakin was and how hampered he had become as Darth Vader. Yes, in the movies, Vader is only ever really shown using basic feats of the Force, but the EU makes it clear he's capable of doing much more than that and that even if he wasn't, he can do those things with ridiculous amounts of power behind them. It should be pointed out that one of those people he Force Choked wasn't even remotely in the same part of the galaxy as he was when he did so. At the very least, he wasn't in the same system. Space is ridiculously vast and huge, even from just one system to another, never mind to another part of the galaxy entirely. How much power do you think Vader would have had to reach out across the galaxy and choke someone on the other side of it?
I should also point out that Vader, as an experienced warrior and tactician would be well aware of his own strengths and weaknesses. The EU (before Disney made it non-canon) went into detail about how Vader changed his fighting style to adjust for the very fact that he now had a glaring weakness right there on his chest. Even in the movies, from what I recall, it's clear from the way he holds his lightsaber that he's quite literally protecting his center, particularly his chest. Even if someone did go after his obvious weakness (which has happened quite a few times in the EU), it wouldn't matter because Vader is very good at defending it. I do believe (unless I'm mistaken) that Vader sometimes even used that as a ploy to lull his opponent into thinking that they could outmaneuver him and strike his weak point but would viciously counter them when they tried.
As for the military of the Empire, I'd argue that a lot of its leaders were actually quite capable commanders and tacticians. What's unfortunate is that a lot of the Grand Moffs let their ambitions get in the way of those under their jurisdiction (like Tarkin). Basically, and this is just me personally, I think the Imperial Military was actually pretty effective and would have been nigh unstoppable if the moffs were either less concerned about advancing themselves or more competent (or both in some cases).
So, that douchebag Filoni retconned Grievous' backstory because he thought "he was too sympathetic" (sympathetic villains.. in STAR WARS? HAVE YOU SEEN STAR WARS, FILONI!?), making his cybernetic enhancements VOLUNTARY - he makes him into a whiny bitch who wanted to be a Jedi but couldn't, and that's why he hates Jedi and why he changed himself into such a cyborg. It absolutely RUINS the character, and the point of why the character exists as a thematic and somewhat literal forerunner to Darth Vader. I just heard about this a day ago because I just started giving a shit about SW again (my mistake) and luckily it seems the response from fans is overwhelmingly negative, but good god, I don't know why they thought that was a good idea.
Soresu, Form III, is Obi-Wan's chosen form. His humility is why he is *the* master of Soresu and why he was chosen to take down Grievous by the rest of the Council. Matthew Stover, author of the greatest Star Wars book I've ever read, the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, which I still consider canon.
As I understand it, the novels of the movies are still considered canon. I don't think that part was changed.