I just got the Palma for my birthday. I love love love it! I was worried it would be too small, but it’s the perfect size. I like the screen better than my kindles, it’s so crisp. I have a scribe, paperwhite, oasis, and a kobo, and I love the Palma most to read on.
Hi Marie! Can I ask how good is the quality of the screen in the Kindle app? Becuase I saw in other reviews from Boox products that Kindle app was not really optimized for eink displays. Thanks!
@@DjLuCKyCHaRMyes, but playing video is not a great experience and probably drains the battery much faster due to continuous screen refreshing, although it's possible. But yes you can listen to podcasts, it has a speaker.
When it comes to reading graphical novels or books with lots of illustrations I'd rather read them on a large LCD or OLED tablet. But when I'm reading pure text I actually prefer a smaller screen, and prefer e-ink so this is very tempting, looking at this and the boox page
I want one. I know I'm addicted to my phone and I know my headaches come from staring at screens all day. I think I'd use this like I did my old iPods, everything including reading, music, audiobooks, and then just rely on my phone just for phone things.
I have the same addiction problem with my phone. I bough this 2 weeks ago and I reduced my screen time drastically - I use the Palma in bed before going to sleep reading insteadx of my phone scrolling Reddit, I use it while I am on the bus, while I am having my coffee break at work..
This is exactly the form I want. I am willing to pay extra for a capable device, open platform, and e ink. Not having sim card is a plus because I want to stay away from all the notifications. Thank you for the review!
I got mine two weeks ago and I absolutely love it. I still have my kindle but the Palma is incredibly light and I downloaded all my ebooks and audible books so much faster than kindle. I don't use it for anything else except for reading. It was expensive but well worth it, I don't regret it :-)
I bought one for my husband and ended up stealing it from him! I thought I wouldn't be that interested because of the size, but that has turned out to be something I love.
I have had mine for several months and have really enjoyed it. I like the fact that I can have all my reading apps on one e ink device and not have to carry a kindle, kobo etc etc when I can just carry this. And it has really good battery life.
I can see where the Palma would be great for commuting. I love my Palma. It's so much easier on the eyes than reading from a phone reading app and the light weight of it is fabulous. Plus it's kind of nice being able to check in quickly on your social media apps, bring up wikipedia, reddit, or some news apps without going over to a phone or laptop. :)
@@BadAssBlackOverlord I never really understand that since when I'm done reading I'm done and can look at other things. I don't keep stopping to check stuff in other words. I guess some people are more distractible and it would be a negative for sure.
Great review! I have an older Kindle and am seriously considering getting the Palma as a replacement. Also, I laughed at the Ice Planet Barbarians joke. Good one. 😆
I'm willing to pay that to FINALLY get a pocketable ereader. I can't believe that none of the major players make a small reader. They just keep getting bigger and bigger. I still have my old Sony 350 which is small-ish but it's also slow and buggy (skips pages sometimes on epubs).
I'm buying one because I find that I am always reading on my phone since it is so easy to hold. So, I'm hoping this will take the place of my scrolling on my phone for hours.
Thank you for this review! I've got the BOOX Tab Mini C for color reading for graphic novels and such...but was really curious about the Palma for its small size. Might be my next splurge.
I've been looking for a "good" Boox Palma review...You have really kind eyes and your voice is soothing which reeled me in to stick with watching your video 😊
Nice overview, Olly, although I am definitely not the right consumer for this project. The thought of carrying around a second phone-sized device just melts my brain. I've been seriously considering chucking my phone into the pond, although I imagine work would object. Ah, the halcyon days of landlines and being unreachable any time you left the house! But I digress ... cheers!
Tip: take a beach photo or video with your Palma at DocScan mode, share to your mobile phone or tablet n you will be surprised with the realistic colors. Also Palma will enlarge nicely the font of pdf books that act more stubborn with your classical ebook reader .
I haven't used mine much yet. I have the kindle signature, and it fits into my small purse along with my Pixel phone. I kind of laughed when you brought up TH-cam. I was reminded of my childhood when all we had was black and white TV.
Great review Olly. the price point is the deal breaker for me. It’s almost as expensive as an entry level android phone that could do all these things and would weigh much less that say my Samsung s24. It’s also a device I would have to carry as well as my phone, when for the purposes of commuting, just bringing my phone does exactly the same job and more. I can see the attraction to some people, but I feel this is trying to solve a problem that doesn’t need to be solved by a brand new device. Enjoyed your review and the chance to see what this does.
If Amazon made a Kindle Palm I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but can't really buy this one at its price as of now. I don't need another phone, just a small e-reader. But this is a great review nonetheless!
Thing about amazon doing their own Palma style device is that it would be way less open since it wouldnt be on android and stuck in their ecosystem, have less features and most likely cost more. This device is pretty much as good as it gets for this concept until color e ink gets better honestly.
Thanks. Mine comes tomorrow. I watched this again to get myself jazzed up for it :-) With the 1TB microsd I got for it, I'll have a gigantic libarary with me all time time!
Great review. I just saw this discussed on The Verge and it prompted me to find other reviews. I must admit this does appeal to me, but I do wonder if I'd actually use it. I've got a Kindle which I love in principle but I almost always read by audio, even when that means text to speech. However, I could easily envision transitioning to incorporating more reading while listening, especially when I'm traveling passively. Even for audiobooks, I could easily see this as just my "book" device, separate from my primary phone with all my book material I consume. Plus, id love to distance myself even a little more from Amazon.
Thank you! It’s a really great device and has definitely made it easier for me to break away from Amazon. And as someone whose been a long time Verge fan I’m delighted they’ve ended up leading you to my video
My paperwhite is great, good battery, buffet lighting tones. No distractions with other apps. But very limited book selections… I would love a bigger selection… it’s just the price of a Palma for me.
Looks great size wise but you’re not going to carry it instead of your phone, so I’m not sure that extra functionality is worth much. I just bought the most basic kindle for around £80 and it’s great. Not much bigger than my iPhone Max, can be held in one hand and around a quarter of the price. I still want one though 😂
I pretty much just dont bother with my phone anymore outside of actual calls since my Palma has outright replaced it for many of the common basic apps I usually used. Way lighter and easier to carry around than a lot of huge phones out there now too.
Truthfully, I'm only stuck on my phone for long periods of time because I read. I have my kindle and I do read there, but I also read on various sites that translates novels of other languages to english as well as mangas and kindle can't have that unfortunately. I was thinking this could resolve my problems, but the price. It's so expensive. 😅😭
Bit of an odd question, but as it runs on android do you know if it can be used via voice control? Can't use my pesky hands which is why I read an iPad with voice control. Would be fantastic if this offered that functionality. Good review by the way.
I know you also have the kindle scribe. And maybe the paperwhite? If you could only get one, which e-reader would you choose? I have the very first version of kindle paperwhite. I love it but the battery is not lasting long so I’ve been thinking of replacing it. If I cannot get a battery replacement.
People harp on this "limitation", but I don't really see it. It's only a problem if you use this for certain things besides reading. IT's only with downloading apps and what-not that this could have security issues. If you just stick to reading eBooks, I think any risk is really, really, small, if not nonexistent.
It sounds like a nice device; I like the size and the physical page turn buttons. One thing that I dislike about reading on my current devices (phone, Kindle Fire tablet, Galaxy Tab S4, Nook Glow Light Plus) is that I can't hold one and turn the pages with one hand. However, $300 USD is way too much for a device like this. Not to mention that it would be another device to carry around with my phone.
I installed minimalist phone launcher on mine. I love the simple and text based view of it. My question is: I've not managed to get the volume buttons to change the pages. Wondering what settings you used to enable that?
Oh I might try that! There is a setting within more settings for how you want the volume buttons to behave. You can configure it by app. Then within the kindle app there is a use volume buttons for page turn option. For kindle I had to try a few different combinations. I think in the end I had the buttons still set to be volume but the option in the app turned on. Hope that makes sense
@@CriminOllyBlog That worked like a charm. Where I was going wrong was to have the general Kindle Palma setting set to volume and the internal Kindle setting set to page turn.
1- does it flip so you can read in landscape mode? 2- how functionally big does the type get? 3-does the type smoothly increase in size, or does it ratchet up and jumps?
Is this the comment? If so I can still see it! 1. yes 2. In kindle app largest font gives you about 9 lines - so pretty big 3. I think that depends on the app
Some people have raised an issue with the white palma that when the light is turned up in dark room there is a bright glare of light around the rim under the bezel and this does not seem to be present om black kindle. Have you noticed this on your white palma? I would be getting mine from the UK store if i get one.
I hadn’t noticed that but I just tried turning the brightness right up and I can see what you’re talking about. I wouldn’t have said it was really a problem though
I don't think it's that much lighter than an iPhone. The Boox Palma is 170 gm (6 oz) and the iPhone 15 Pro is 187 gm (6.6 oz). So the Palma is only 10% lighter.
@@CriminOllyBlog Ok, I didn't think there would be much difference in phone weights, but apparently there is. The iPhone 14 Pro Max is 8.47 ounces (240 grams), which means your iPhone is 41% heavier than the Palma, which I suppose *is* pretty significant!
@LukasOndris thats now what im asking about. At night you most likely people use lowest or close to lowest Lightning settings. Depends on the device some people cant use certain models as the lowest settings is still too bright to read in completly dark room. I have heard that about this model so im asking hoping i get more opinions or comparison to more know models as kindle paperwhite or kobo libra
@@CriminOllyBlog Well in future if they did that, it'll be my primary device Calling + WhatsApp + READING, I'll use iPhone for other needs that too occasionally.
I asked this question on reddit and the answer I got was that there is a setting to keep bluetooth on whilst the screen is off, and it will drain the battery in about 12h by keeping bluetooth on even if you disconnect your headphones. The other solution was that you can listen to an audio app such as TH-cam or audible and go to the home screen (effectively minimising the apps and freezing the screen) so that battery and process power isn't diverted to screen updates.
@@CriminOllyBlog No, I mean for drm-protected epub-files in general. Both my current Galaxy S24+ and Kobo Clara E2 handles that with no problems. Its a dealbreaker for me.
not wearing glasses..YET? no problem, just have patience, it will come to you, you can squit your eyes till next month on two inches wide page.. and suppose to read books and 2 ANYONE CAN USE A.. PHONE??? HELLO???
I just got the Palma for my birthday. I love love love it! I was worried it would be too small, but it’s the perfect size. I like the screen better than my kindles, it’s so crisp. I have a scribe, paperwhite, oasis, and a kobo, and I love the Palma most to read on.
Hi Marie! Can I ask how good is the quality of the screen in the Kindle app? Becuase I saw in other reviews from Boox products that Kindle app was not really optimized for eink displays. Thanks!
Amazing to here. Could it also play TH-cam and Spotify for podcast?
@@DjLuCKyCHaRMyes, but playing video is not a great experience and probably drains the battery much faster due to continuous screen refreshing, although it's possible. But yes you can listen to podcasts, it has a speaker.
Wow you're so filthy rich
When it comes to reading graphical novels or books with lots of illustrations I'd rather read them on a large LCD or OLED tablet. But when I'm reading pure text I actually prefer a smaller screen, and prefer e-ink so this is very tempting, looking at this and the boox page
I want one. I know I'm addicted to my phone and I know my headaches come from staring at screens all day. I think I'd use this like I did my old iPods, everything including reading, music, audiobooks, and then just rely on my phone just for phone things.
It would work really well for that
I have the same addiction problem with my phone. I bough this 2 weeks ago and I reduced my screen time drastically - I use the Palma in bed before going to sleep reading insteadx of my phone scrolling Reddit, I use it while I am on the bus, while I am having my coffee break at work..
This is exactly the form I want. I am willing to pay extra for a capable device, open platform, and e ink. Not having sim card is a plus because I want to stay away from all the notifications.
Thank you for the review!
I got mine two weeks ago and I absolutely love it. I still have my kindle but the Palma is incredibly light and I downloaded all my ebooks and audible books so much faster than kindle. I don't use it for anything else except for reading. It was expensive but well worth it, I don't regret it :-)
I bought one for my husband and ended up stealing it from him! I thought I wouldn't be that interested because of the size, but that has turned out to be something I love.
I have had mine for several months and have really enjoyed it. I like the fact that I can have all my reading apps on one e ink device and not have to carry a kindle, kobo etc etc when I can just carry this. And it has really good battery life.
I can see where the Palma would be great for commuting. I love my Palma. It's so much easier on the eyes than reading from a phone reading app and the light weight of it is fabulous. Plus it's kind of nice being able to check in quickly on your social media apps, bring up wikipedia, reddit, or some news apps without going over to a phone or laptop. :)
The point of this is to avoid all other distractions besides reading...
@@BadAssBlackOverlord I never really understand that since when I'm done reading I'm done and can look at other things. I don't keep stopping to check stuff in other words. I guess some people are more distractible and it would be a negative for sure.
Choked on my laughter when Ice Planet Barbarians popped up 😂
Absolute surprise
Im very tempted to buy this but it's quite expensive.. 😢 well, at least I still have my Kobo and Kindle
Amazing video, more TH-camrs need to be like you with this kind of quality reviewing
I like that you’re realistic, can tell you actually use the thing and aren’t just reviewing something sensational
Thank you! Glad the review worked for you.
Great review! I have an older Kindle and am seriously considering getting the Palma as a replacement. Also, I laughed at the Ice Planet Barbarians joke. Good one. 😆
It’s a great little device! Glad you appreciated the joke 😂
I'm willing to pay that to FINALLY get a pocketable ereader. I can't believe that none of the major players make a small reader. They just keep getting bigger and bigger. I still have my old Sony 350 which is small-ish but it's also slow and buggy (skips pages sometimes on epubs).
I'm buying one because I find that I am always reading on my phone since it is so easy to hold. So, I'm hoping this will take the place of my scrolling on my phone for hours.
I really really want this. I'm having trouble justifying the price, but I really want this for one-handed reading... For the train.
You’ll get arrested!
Thanks mate,this is the best video I’ve seen reviewing the boox palma I may just have to look in to purchasing one.😊
Thank you for this review! I've got the BOOX Tab Mini C for color reading for graphic novels and such...but was really curious about the Palma for its small size. Might be my next splurge.
I've been looking for a "good" Boox Palma review...You have really kind eyes and your voice is soothing which reeled me in to stick with watching your video 😊
I just got my boox 2 weeks ago and read 13 books on it already lol it really made me go back to reading and I love the white one, it's amazing
That’s brilliant! Anything that gets people reading is amazing
Nice overview, Olly, although I am definitely not the right consumer for this project. The thought of carrying around a second phone-sized device just melts my brain. I've been seriously considering chucking my phone into the pond, although I imagine work would object. Ah, the halcyon days of landlines and being unreachable any time you left the house! But I digress ... cheers!
What a candid, to the point review. Thank you.
Glad you liked it!
Tip: take a beach photo or video with your Palma at DocScan mode, share to your mobile phone or tablet n you will be surprised with the realistic colors. Also Palma will enlarge nicely the font of pdf books that act more stubborn with your classical ebook reader .
I'll have to try that!
6:07 WAIT DID YOU JUST --
😂😂
My jaw dropped when I heard it lol
Thanks for the review. I hadn't even heard of this thing.
Great review! I’m on the fence if I want to buy one, but it certainly looks awesome!
It is a really great device
I haven't used mine much yet. I have the kindle signature, and it fits into my small purse along with my Pixel phone. I kind of laughed when you brought up TH-cam. I was reminded of my childhood when all we had was black and white TV.
Great review Olly. the price point is the deal breaker for me. It’s almost as expensive as an entry level android phone that could do all these things and would weigh much less that say my Samsung s24. It’s also a device I would have to carry as well as my phone, when for the purposes of commuting, just bringing my phone does exactly the same job and more. I can see the attraction to some people, but I feel this is trying to solve a problem that doesn’t need to be solved by a brand new device. Enjoyed your review and the chance to see what this does.
If Amazon made a Kindle Palm I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but can't really buy this one at its price as of now. I don't need another phone, just a small e-reader. But this is a great review nonetheless!
Thing about amazon doing their own Palma style device is that it would be way less open since it wouldnt be on android and stuck in their ecosystem, have less features and most likely cost more. This device is pretty much as good as it gets for this concept until color e ink gets better honestly.
Thanks. Mine comes tomorrow. I watched this again to get myself jazzed up for it :-) With the 1TB microsd I got for it, I'll have a gigantic libarary with me all time time!
That's awesome! Enjoy!
I love your lock screen for it.
Great review. I just saw this discussed on The Verge and it prompted me to find other reviews.
I must admit this does appeal to me, but I do wonder if I'd actually use it. I've got a Kindle which I love in principle but I almost always read by audio, even when that means text to speech. However, I could easily envision transitioning to incorporating more reading while listening, especially when I'm traveling passively. Even for audiobooks, I could easily see this as just my "book" device, separate from my primary phone with all my book material I consume. Plus, id love to distance myself even a little more from Amazon.
Thank you! It’s a really great device and has definitely made it easier for me to break away from Amazon.
And as someone whose been a long time Verge fan I’m delighted they’ve ended up leading you to my video
Thanks, Olly. Very tempting...
My paperwhite is great, good battery, buffet lighting tones. No distractions with other apps. But very limited book selections… I would love a bigger selection… it’s just the price of a Palma for me.
Looks great size wise but you’re not going to carry it instead of your phone, so I’m not sure that extra functionality is worth much. I just bought the most basic kindle for around £80 and it’s great. Not much bigger than my iPhone Max, can be held in one hand and around a quarter of the price.
I still want one though 😂
I pretty much just dont bother with my phone anymore outside of actual calls since my Palma has outright replaced it for many of the common basic apps I usually used. Way lighter and easier to carry around than a lot of huge phones out there now too.
Imagine watching TH-cam in E-Ink. That’s surreal.
Truthfully, I'm only stuck on my phone for long periods of time because I read. I have my kindle and I do read there, but I also read on various sites that translates novels of other languages to english as well as mangas and kindle can't have that unfortunately. I was thinking this could resolve my problems, but the price. It's so expensive. 😅😭
Love it but I wish the volume buttons were on the left side. I'm right handed & it is so difficult to change pages with my index finger
Hi! Loved the video, but I have a question; can you read in scroll mode?
Yes! Glad you enjoyed it
I have a drawer full of fly by night e readers … I always go back to my iPad 🎉 this one looks nice though, I’ll keep an eye on it. Thx
UnboxOLLY is back! 👏🏽
Bit of an odd question, but as it runs on android do you know if it can be used via voice control? Can't use my pesky hands which is why I read an iPad with voice control. Would be fantastic if this offered that functionality. Good review by the way.
My favorite smaller e-reader is my Touch HD 3 by Pocketbook. It's literally like holding a sheet of paper
Just looked that up and it does look very neat
Just looked that up and it does look very neat
One device to rule them all…
Moon Reader does text to speech. And it's my favorite ebook reader for Android besides.
I love it, but no backlight to read at night? For that price, it's probably a pass for me but great review. Thank you!
No, it does have a backlight (same as kindles)
@@CriminOllyBlog I just discovered that it does on their website. Thank you again! Now I may break down and get it!
So tempting. If I were still commuting I’d be all over it.
Great review! Thank you
I know you also have the kindle scribe. And maybe the paperwhite?
If you could only get one, which e-reader would you choose?
I have the very first version of kindle paperwhite. I love it but the battery is not lasting long so I’ve been thinking of replacing it. If I cannot get a battery replacement.
The lack of security updates is concerning, maybe not so much now but as these become more popular they could be targeted.
People harp on this "limitation", but I don't really see it. It's only a problem if you use this for certain things besides reading. IT's only with downloading apps and what-not that this could have security issues. If you just stick to reading eBooks, I think any risk is really, really, small, if not nonexistent.
I just need something like this but a digital notebook
It seems like a great reader, but a bit more than I'm willing to spend for what would be a secondary device.
It sounds like a nice device; I like the size and the physical page turn buttons. One thing that I dislike about reading on my current devices (phone, Kindle Fire tablet, Galaxy Tab S4, Nook Glow Light Plus) is that I can't hold one and turn the pages with one hand. However, $300 USD is way too much for a device like this. Not to mention that it would be another device to carry around with my phone.
Wouldn't you just be doing what you do now... carrying two devices? Only with the Palma, at least it's smaller.
@@knotatraitor I'll concede that point.
Can u simultaneously listen to audible while reading in the libby app? 😊
I haven't actually tried that, but it can definitely play audio while you do something else
@@CriminOllyBlog that's good enough for me 😊 thank u!
I have the boox poke5, which for me is a bit too small as I am used to reading on my ipad mini
I installed minimalist phone launcher on mine. I love the simple and text based view of it.
My question is: I've not managed to get the volume buttons to change the pages. Wondering what settings you used to enable that?
Oh I might try that!
There is a setting within more settings for how you want the volume buttons to behave. You can configure it by app. Then within the kindle app there is a use volume buttons for page turn option. For kindle I had to try a few different combinations. I think in the end I had the buttons still set to be volume but the option in the app turned on. Hope that makes sense
@@CriminOllyBlog That worked like a charm. Where I was going wrong was to have the general Kindle Palma setting set to volume and the internal Kindle setting set to page turn.
1- does it flip so you can read in landscape mode?
2- how functionally big does the type get?
3-does the type smoothly increase in size, or does it ratchet up and jumps?
Is this the comment? If so I can still see it!
1. yes
2. In kindle app largest font gives you about 9 lines - so pretty big
3. I think that depends on the app
@@CriminOllyBlog Yes!
That was the mystery post! **Thank You**
(See why I was going to go back and add a bit more "human"? 😅)
Where did you find it?
@@salty-waltit was there in my comments feed on YT Studio. Not sure why it wasn’t visible for you.
please, anybody knows, if you can hear an MP3 via bluetooth while reading an ebook?
Some people have raised an issue with the white palma that when the light is turned up in dark room there is a bright glare of light around the rim under the bezel and this does not seem to be present om black kindle. Have you noticed this on your white palma? I would be getting mine from the UK store if i get one.
I hadn’t noticed that but I just tried turning the brightness right up and I can see what you’re talking about. I wouldn’t have said it was really a problem though
What is that case you have there?
I don't think it's that much lighter than an iPhone. The Boox Palma is 170 gm (6 oz) and the iPhone 15 Pro is 187 gm (6.6 oz). So the Palma is only 10% lighter.
I was talking about my phone which is an iPhone 14 Pro Max
@@CriminOllyBlog Ok, I didn't think there would be much difference in phone weights, but apparently there is. The iPhone 14 Pro Max is 8.47 ounces (240 grams), which means your iPhone is 41% heavier than the Palma, which I suppose *is* pretty significant!
A headphone jack would make this perfect
For that amount of money, it should be in color
How is the lowest brightness look compared to other ereaders like kindle etc.?
@LukasOndris thats now what im asking about. At night you most likely people use lowest or close to lowest Lightning settings. Depends on the device some people cant use certain models as the lowest settings is still too bright to read in completly dark room. I have heard that about this model so im asking hoping i get more opinions or comparison to more know models as kindle paperwhite or kobo libra
I use my iPad mini primarily as a reader - and it fits in my jacket side pockets. Wouldn't want anything smaller.
There is no cellular sim option?
Nope, afraid not
@@CriminOllyBlog Well in future if they did that, it'll be my primary device
Calling + WhatsApp + READING, I'll use iPhone for other needs that too occasionally.
Can you listen to music or audiobooks AND turn off the screen?
Yes, you need to tweak some things in settings but you can
I asked this question on reddit and the answer I got was that there is a setting to keep bluetooth on whilst the screen is off, and it will drain the battery in about 12h by keeping bluetooth on even if you disconnect your headphones. The other solution was that you can listen to an audio app such as TH-cam or audible and go to the home screen (effectively minimising the apps and freezing the screen) so that battery and process power isn't diverted to screen updates.
Looks like a great little device. Once the battery life is better it is something I would consider.
Is it possible to drm-authorize this device?
Do you mean for kindle books?
@@CriminOllyBlog No, I mean for drm-protected epub-files in general. Both my current Galaxy S24+ and Kobo Clara E2 handles that with no problems. Its a dealbreaker for me.
@@Melker63 I honestly don’t know I’m afraid! Not something I have experience of
You cannot listen to audiobooks through Hoopla. I repeat, you cannot listen to audiobooks through Hoopla.
Total rediculousness.
Does it have a native reading app?
Yeah it does
It's called NeoReader and I personally really like it, especially for annotating
They should make this into a working phone
That would definitely be an interesting device
Holy crap it's 330€
💚🖤
A One Piece fan I see... :)
Great review! It’s just not for me.
Thanks MJ!
Way to expensive and no backlight, wtf.
It has a backlight
@@CriminOllyBlog would never know that based on this video.
not wearing glasses..YET? no problem, just have patience, it will come to you, you can squit your eyes till next month on two inches wide page.. and suppose to read books and 2 ANYONE CAN USE A.. PHONE??? HELLO???