Beth could not handle the "messiness" of life. Conrad learns to be strong an accepts the road life offers. The more Conrad becomes a complete person the more obvious Beth is incomplete and unable to cope. The most devasting scene is Conrad hugging Beth in an act of forgiveness, and she is unable to accept it. MTM look at that moment is telling and devasting..and MTM nails it!!!
The film wasn't depressing it was tragic, and in it's tragedy, was a lot of heart and love, that needed to be discovered. Whenever i am depressed, i watch this, and try to remember why to live.
Conrad is suffering from PTSD and survivors guilt, and Beth, as Calvin puts it "if only there hadn't been any mess, you can't handle mess." Even the plate she accidentally breaks, she feels can be put back together-no evidence of "any mess". The world is filled with people, that despite what's going on behind closed doors feel that if the facade is maintained and no "mess" is shown, then there isn't any. Maybe things would've been different if Conrad hadn't tried to kill himself, but that opens a door onto (possible) mental illness, an ambulance in the middle of the night, police, doctors, whispering...mess. And for the person ill equipped to deal with that kind of public exposure to what you SO desperately want to keep private, it becomes too much to bear and anger and resentment get attached to the person you feel responsible for creating all that havoc. Pretty simple really. Beth should have been seeing her own psychiatrist and they should have been in family counseling, but that's what tends to happen in 2014, in a wealthy Midwest suburb circa 1980...you just pray it all goes away.
I have heard others say they changed their opinion on the Beth character just as I did. When I was younger, I hated her and thought she was cold and unloving. Thirty years later, I see a woman who was in deep pain and who didn't know how to handle it. It's not unusual for a family to be torn apart by a loss for these very kinds of reasons -- that they are each in so much pain and are unable to help each other through it.
At the time, it was earth-shaking that MTM, America's Sweetheart, would or could play such a dark role. But she was brilliant. I never thought of Beth as a bitch either; I thought of her as a woman who never learned to cope with unfortunate circumstances. And while the movie is heavy and difficult, it's not depressing. It's somehow uplifting.
If anyone deserves an Honorary Academy Award, it is Mary Tyler Moore. Though her film portfolio is slim, she really did deliver a performance in Ordinary People so strong, it still affects, disturbs and sparks debate. Angela Lansbury--a most superior actress--was given a lifetime achievement Oscar based primarily on her overlooked but astounding performance in The Manchurian Candidate. MTM certainly deserves to have her slight made right.
The nuances she incorporates in this movie is amazing. This would have been a very difficult role but Mary Tyler Moore does it wonderfully. I do not know too many actors who could have played this role as convincingly and honestly. In my opinion this is the second best movie ever produced.
Conrad doesn't wallow in self pity. He feels guilty for living when his brother died and it's killing him. She's ignoring her family by "moving on". When family looks to her for emotional support, she's not a rock, she's checked out. Being giving and generous includes telling your kid you don't hate them when he truly thinks it. She gives her love to her husband, parents, friends, in mall says send my love to woman's husband, but can't stand a hug from Conrad or be near him in a picture.
My take on Mary's take on "Beth" is that she was a coward as the husband said in a scene where he profess to her that he's unsure if he loves her anymore. He ultimately came to the conclusion that she was "not a strong person".
Very well played. She was so good. Wish she was in more dramas to show off her talents. But she was so ground breaking in her other shows anyway. Who knew that she had such a bad family life?
one of the key moments was when calvin says to beth she is "weak", which is true, she was never able to cope and go through the emotional process like conrad did, I like the scene after where she packs up her things and tries to hold it all in
yes, she should receive an honorary oscar. this role remains the perfect symbol of upper class american repression "we were taught to do the right things."
Yea!!!! I agree with you. You nailed it too. Conrad is becoming more of a complete person. And Timothy Hutton, isn't he wonderful, I always thought he was a good dramatic artist since I saw him in this movie and always enjoyed his artistic expression. Big fan.
It's very instructive to learn, through the process of living, so much about life itself and to develop understanding/compassion for oneself and others. Thank you for pointing this out so beautifully and honestly in your own sharing. I think I had much the same experience.
@dav1237 All three would have been excellent, but what made the role even more poignant was Mary Richards Laura Petry Tyler Moore playing against type so brilliantly. Not winning the Oscar that year remains one of the all time greatest Oscar blunders to date.
Hmm, I'd never even thought about the whole 'Beth was actually a victim' angle. I too had just seen her as pure bitch, almost 'evil' even. Perhaps she was also a victim, not sure. All I know is that this has been hands down my FAVORITE movie since I was in my teens in the early-mid '80s which has always puzzled me because it's not necessarily the kind of film that a typical 15/16 year old adopts as their all time favorite LOL. But it was, and still is to this day. Possibly the best film ever.
Beth I don't feel was betrayed by Conrad because he decided to try suicide. His place is way far in a black hole with no escape in his own mind. She didn't shut down. She always treated Conrad different. Her husband said it best, she isn't really all that giving, and she never showed Conrad much affection, but does for others. It is not giving to continuously say I can't show love on demand. Her son is one foot in the grave, he thinks she hates him. Good mothers would straighten that out.
What I find depressing about the movie, is the fact that these sorts of problems are very common in families, hence the title. Her character may very well have been a victim, however as is usually the case, she became the victimizer.
Conrad notices he is not the favorite child and is treated differently than his brother from the same mother. He is deeply hurt by this and racked up with guilt from having been the one who survived, which his mother is unwilling to help him put at bay----by going as a family to therapy, why, again, appearances and we can deal with it on our own, her unwillingness shows that she doesn't care---this is her tragedy, but not a bitch---the family is dysfunctional.
To refer to the mother as a " bitch " is to not appreciate her role and the premise of the film. She is coping with the loss of her son. She is going through many emotional dynamics in this film and contrary to belief she does love Conrad but can't show it the way most moms would. In the gold scene when she exclaims " What mother wouldn't love her son" , or something similar, she is being honest. Some could argue that she is the victim..
i think the point is that she didn't allow her self to grieve and in the process didn't think anyne else should either. Given, that was her way of dealing with it, being the strong one and maybe living by example on how to move on, but not everyone is the same. She wasn't seen as a bitch because she was moving on but that she didn't try to understand how the accident affectd others inher family.
@dav1237 Ann-Margret is too warm, IMO, to play Beth. Jane Fonda might have been able to do it, she definitely has the disposition. But of the 3 mentioned here, Lee Remick gets my vote as most interesting choice. Jane has the proper coldness, but I think she may lack subtlety. Lee Remick was lovely and her demeanor would have been PERFECT for Beth J. Very proper and, most importantly, low-key. She could have done it very quietly and been devastating.
It seems that the "uploader approval" function here is just as much in denial as Beth, not letting any criticism of her (of any sort) get through. The "right thing" to do when there are intense problems in your family is to acknowledge them, which is only reasonable if others acknowledge them as well. Calvin & Conrad confront these issues; Beth ignores them. For her, the "right thing" is to simply go on like nothing happened. Was this taught to her by her parents, or was it just her fear?
The sole unrealistic element (in a story that otherwise is maybe a lttle bit too real to feel comfortable for many) is that it's the psychiatrist who eventually "comes to the rescue" when Conrad's really in trouble. If real psychiatrists were this wise, insightful, genuine, caring & supportive, this might be a more functional world. Sadly, such is not the case.
Notice how Mary says the role was very "reminscent" of her and that she states she is emotionally like her father. Her portrayal of Beth is very masculine compared to Donald Sutherland being more feminine.Sadly after the movie was screened by her only son, he killed himself as a way of saying to the world, that my mother is Beth Jarret. Sad.
R.I.P.: Mary Tyler Moore. No matter how much of a bitch she was in Ordinary People, she will always be That Woman who would put a smile on My Face every time I remember her. To me she will be known as Mary Richards, The Sweetest of all Sweetheart Women in this World. And when Valerie Harper(Rhoda Morganstern) also kicks the bucket, most likely I will I will go to pieces knowing that My Childhood's Favorite People will be gone forever!
Imagine if you weren't able to get over the death of one son and the other one decided to betray you and kill himself.. wouldn't you shut down? Wouldn't you grab at whatever you could control and try to maintain? Maybe you wouldn't, but who am I to judge. Spare me the Beth is a bitch comments. At worse she is completely shut down.. at most she is a punching bag for the other two to work out their own feeling on. And in the middle? She is a woman trying to cope with the tools she was raised with.
![POLYCAT - ข้อความรูปยิ้ม :) [Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lBhIgPGCgbI/mqdefault.jpg)
She was beyond brilliant in Ordinary People...The acting required so much nuance and buried feeling. It's a masterpiece.
Mary was genius in this role. Anyone who has come from a dysfunctional family knew she played the part to perfection.
Beth could not handle the "messiness" of life. Conrad learns to be strong an accepts the road life offers. The more Conrad becomes a complete person the more obvious Beth is incomplete and unable to cope. The most devasting scene is Conrad hugging Beth in an act of forgiveness, and she is unable to accept it. MTM look at that moment is telling and devasting..and MTM nails it!!!
She murdered this role. Beyond outstanding performance.
The film wasn't depressing it was tragic, and in it's tragedy, was a lot of heart and love, that needed to be discovered. Whenever i am depressed, i watch this, and try to remember why to live.
Conrad is suffering from PTSD and survivors guilt, and Beth, as Calvin puts it "if only there hadn't been any mess, you can't handle mess." Even the plate she accidentally breaks, she feels can be put back together-no evidence of "any mess". The world is filled with people, that despite what's going on behind closed doors feel that if the facade is maintained and no "mess" is shown, then there isn't any. Maybe things would've been different if Conrad hadn't tried to kill himself, but that opens a door onto (possible) mental illness, an ambulance in the middle of the night, police, doctors, whispering...mess. And for the person ill equipped to deal with that kind of public exposure to what you SO desperately want to keep private, it becomes too much to bear and anger and resentment get attached to the person you feel responsible for creating all that havoc. Pretty simple really. Beth should have been seeing her own psychiatrist and they should have been in family counseling, but that's what tends to happen in 2014, in a wealthy Midwest suburb circa 1980...you just pray it all goes away.
I have heard others say they changed their opinion on the Beth character just as I did. When I was younger, I hated her and thought she was cold and unloving. Thirty years later, I see a woman who was in deep pain and who didn't know how to handle it. It's not unusual for a family to be torn apart by a loss for these very kinds of reasons -- that they are each in so much pain and are unable to help each other through it.
She should have one the Oscar for it.... brilliant movie....
She was bloody brilliant. One of my best movies ever. She stole every single scene in that movie.
she was brillant in it should have won the Oscar
I agree with you entirely Her performance was just pitch perfect quite outstanding.
At the time, it was earth-shaking that MTM, America's Sweetheart, would or could play such a dark role. But she was brilliant. I never thought of Beth as a bitch either; I thought of her as a woman who never learned to cope with unfortunate circumstances. And while the movie is heavy and difficult, it's not depressing. It's somehow uplifting.
she gave a powerful performance in the movie
If anyone deserves an Honorary Academy Award, it is Mary Tyler Moore. Though her film portfolio is slim, she really did deliver a performance in Ordinary People so strong, it still affects, disturbs and sparks debate. Angela Lansbury--a most superior actress--was given a lifetime achievement Oscar based primarily on her overlooked but astounding performance in The Manchurian Candidate. MTM certainly deserves to have her slight made right.
The nuances she incorporates in this movie is amazing. This would have been a very difficult role but Mary Tyler Moore does it wonderfully. I do not know too many actors who could have played this role as convincingly and honestly. In my opinion this is the second best movie ever produced.
Conrad doesn't wallow in self pity. He feels guilty for living when his brother died and it's killing him. She's ignoring her family by "moving on". When family looks to her for emotional support, she's not a rock, she's checked out. Being giving and generous includes telling your kid you don't hate them when he truly thinks it. She gives her love to her husband, parents, friends, in mall says send my love to woman's husband, but can't stand a hug from Conrad or be near him in a picture.
@KellyGreen5555 I couldn't agree more. She was outstanding. With Redford directing and a brilliant cast, this became one of those life-changing films
My take on Mary's take on "Beth" is that she was a coward as the husband said in a scene where he profess to her that he's unsure if he loves her anymore. He ultimately came to the conclusion that she was "not a strong person".
Wonderful actress & and performance in Ordinary People, a top 10 favorite för me!
Very well played. She was so good. Wish she was in more dramas to show off her talents. But she was so ground breaking in her other shows anyway. Who knew that she had such a bad family life?
one of the key moments was when calvin says to beth she is "weak", which is true, she was never able to cope and go through the emotional process like conrad did, I like the scene after where she packs up her things and tries to hold it all in
yes, she should receive an honorary oscar. this role remains the perfect symbol of upper class american repression "we were taught to do the right things."
Yea!!!! I agree with you. You nailed it too. Conrad is becoming more of a complete person. And Timothy Hutton, isn't he wonderful, I always thought he was a good dramatic artist since I saw him in this movie and always enjoyed his artistic expression. Big fan.
Yes..she did portray her part as Beth well.. very convincing.
ella ha representado como nadie a una madre narcisista en Ordinay People , una gran actriz
It's very instructive to learn, through the process of living, so much about life itself and to develop understanding/compassion for oneself and others. Thank you for pointing this out so beautifully and honestly in your own sharing. I think I had much the same experience.
@dav1237 All three would have been excellent, but what made the role even more poignant was Mary Richards Laura Petry Tyler Moore playing against type so brilliantly. Not winning the Oscar that year remains one of the all time greatest Oscar blunders to date.
Hmm, I'd never even thought about the whole 'Beth was actually a victim' angle.
I too had just seen her as pure bitch, almost 'evil' even.
Perhaps she was also a victim, not sure.
All I know is that this has been hands down my FAVORITE movie since I was in my teens in the early-mid '80s which has always puzzled me because it's not necessarily the kind of film that a typical 15/16 year old adopts as their all time favorite LOL. But it was, and still is to this day.
Possibly the best film ever.
Ann-Margret and Lee Remick were considered for the role of Beth, as was Jane Fonda.
Beth I don't feel was betrayed by Conrad because he decided to try suicide. His place is way far in a black hole with no escape in his own mind. She didn't shut down. She always treated Conrad different. Her husband said it best, she isn't really all that giving, and she never showed Conrad much affection, but does for others. It is not giving to continuously say I can't show love on demand. Her son is one foot in the grave, he thinks she hates him. Good mothers would straighten that out.
What I find depressing about the movie, is the fact that these sorts of problems are very common in families, hence the title. Her character may very well have been a victim, however as is usually the case, she became the victimizer.
Yay, yah, hurrah for Mary.
Conrad notices he is not the favorite child and is treated differently than his brother from the same mother. He is deeply hurt by this and racked up with guilt from having been the one who survived, which his mother is unwilling to help him put at bay----by going as a family to therapy, why, again, appearances and we can deal with it on our own, her unwillingness shows that she doesn't care---this is her tragedy, but not a bitch---the family is dysfunctional.
To refer to the mother as a " bitch " is to not appreciate her role and the premise of the film. She is coping with the loss of her son. She is going through many emotional dynamics in this film and contrary to belief she does love Conrad but can't show it the way most moms would. In the gold scene when she exclaims " What mother wouldn't love her son" , or something similar, she is being honest. Some could argue that she is the victim..
Yes MTM definitely played her movie role so wel I so hated her character......
i think the point is that she didn't allow her self to grieve and in the process didn't think anyne else should either. Given, that was her way of dealing with it, being the strong one and maybe living by example on how to move on, but not everyone is the same. She wasn't seen as a bitch because she was moving on but that she didn't try to understand how the accident affectd others inher family.
@dav1237 Ann-Margret is too warm, IMO, to play Beth. Jane Fonda might have been able to do it, she definitely has the disposition. But of the 3 mentioned here, Lee Remick gets my vote as most interesting choice. Jane has the proper coldness, but I think she may lack subtlety. Lee Remick was lovely and her demeanor would have been PERFECT for Beth J. Very proper and, most importantly, low-key. She could have done it very quietly and been devastating.
It seems that the "uploader approval" function here is just as much in denial as Beth, not letting any criticism of her (of any sort) get through. The "right thing" to do when there are intense problems in your family is to acknowledge them, which is only reasonable if others acknowledge them as well. Calvin & Conrad confront these issues; Beth ignores them. For her, the "right thing" is to simply go on like nothing happened. Was this taught to her by her parents, or was it just her fear?
@durangopsi Exactamente! Odiava su personaje en la pelicula con una passion de woof dios mio. Y solo una buenisima actriz puede ser eso.
The sole unrealistic element (in a story that otherwise is
maybe a lttle bit too real to feel comfortable for many)
is that it's the psychiatrist who eventually "comes to the rescue"
when Conrad's really in trouble. If real psychiatrists
were this wise, insightful, genuine, caring & supportive,
this might be a more functional world.
Sadly, such is not the case.
probably she could play it that well because she didn't see beth as a "bitch" but as a victim... maybe that's the key.
@dav1237 Interesting. did not know that.
@lineba20 it was both.
Notice how Mary says the role was very "reminscent" of her and that she states she is emotionally like her father. Her portrayal of Beth is very masculine compared to Donald Sutherland being more feminine.Sadly after the movie was screened by her only son, he killed himself as a way of saying to the world, that my mother is Beth Jarret. Sad.
I wish Mariclare Costello had a larger role in the movie.
R.I.P.: Mary Tyler Moore. No matter how much of a bitch she was in Ordinary People, she will always be That Woman who would put a smile on My Face every time I remember her.
To me she will be known as Mary Richards, The Sweetest of all Sweetheart Women in this World. And when Valerie Harper(Rhoda Morganstern) also kicks the bucket, most likely I will I will go to pieces knowing that My Childhood's Favorite People will be gone forever!
Why do you have a beef with psychiatrists?
Imagine if you weren't able to get over the death of one son and the other one decided to betray you and kill himself.. wouldn't you shut down? Wouldn't you grab at whatever you could control and try to maintain? Maybe you wouldn't, but who am I to judge. Spare me the Beth is a bitch comments. At worse she is completely shut down.. at most she is a punching bag for the other two to work out their own feeling on. And in the middle? She is a woman trying to cope with the tools she was raised with.