In MY Heaven, I want a freaking nap, anytime I want. That is all! I am a Mom, Crazy Nana, Helicopter Flight Nurse, Barn Goddess, and Wifey. I nap sounds glorious!
It is honestly terrifying that in 2023 there are people who are using phrases like “demonic forces” and “science” in the same sentence. This isn’t the 1400’s anymore. It’s mind boggling that they are serious. I can’t believe that the audience isn’t just busting up laughing! How does a therapist not immediately lose their license after saying things like that???
It's not just Mormons, either. Protestant Evangelicals talk the "demonic" bullcrap, too. I keep thinking that if science ever did invent a time machine, every dumb mf'er with dark ages thinking needs sent back to 1100 where they belong. And send the anti- vax nuts to the middle of a smallpox outbreak while they're at it.
It's so difficult and disappointing listening people after all these years, investigation, studies still believing in " demons/ bad spirits taking human bodies if you allowed them or if you are drunk..haven't we evolved at all?.…2023 people, 2023😢
I am not Mormon but I was raised by an ex Mormon who was prone to extreme views. I was abused throughout my childhood and programmed to believe destructive things, one of which was this “end times” prophesy. That, alone, is child abuse. After being kicked out of my home because I was being sexually harassed (of course it was my fault, not his) I attended therapy. My therapist was also abusive to me and when I finally reported her, she was arrested and lost her license to practice. I’m writing this to tell you how much I appreciate your work. Even though my experiences were tangentially related, I also feel they’re exactly the same. I wish peace and love to all of the victims in this case.
I want to say well done on having the strength to report your therapist. I hope her losing her licence was helpful to you and that you've found more ethical support since then to help in your recovery. It's hard to stand up against ppl in power especially when you have been abused and are still working on recovery. Respect and ❤
I think that's why this channel has such a broad reach. It touches on things that many ppl experienced (not just Mormons). I've never been mormon but have known many and had no idea the kind of weirdness that went on inside those walls
The abuse that the church perpetuates is far-reaching, only hidden behind the fake smiles and cold countenances of its members... I'm sorry you went through that. Please know that you're not alone. ❤
I recognize one of the people in the photograph at 1:08. He was my therapist for some time. I don't want to disparage him, as I always felt he had my best interest at heart, but he seemed to have a belief that everyone was a porn addict and needed treatment. He convinced me to go into a program that became increasingly time-intensive and costly. Eventually, I didn't feel like the program was really addressing my needs. I do recall him talking about another therapist he felt could give me more intensive help, and I believe it was Hildebrant, but I don't recall for sure. In hindsight, I see how damaging this program was to me psychologically. It was really focused on a problem I didn't have but was convinced that I did by the LDS culture. There were far more important things I should have been addressing. I don't have any ill will toward this counselor but I am disturbed about the concept and approach. I saw several others in the program who were brutally shamed, humiliated, and messed up by it. The whole problem was actually created by the religious culture in Utah.
Oh my God he did that to another people, take the church and her yo the la court for damage and consequences, they destroy your personality and your name.
This is the first time I’ve listened to Lori’s testimony and I couldn’t help but notice that she said shortly after JJ’s death he visited her and told her “you didn’t do anything wrong.” Why would he say that? To reassure herself that killing her kids was justified. She was truly brainwashed by these teachings.
I grew up in Utah and in that church. It was a very dark and toxic time in my life and still affects me to this day. I’m grateful to be free from the clutches of insanity but it’s not without scars. Every time I go to the state of Utah I feel such a dark and empty energy. I hope many more will be set free.
Despite never having been a member of the LDS Church, Mormon Stories has become a favorite channel of mine. I really appreciate your insights into the belief systems of these radical groups and, of course, your guests are always excellent! So happy to see Lauren Matthias join you, as it’s been her and Dr. John’s hard work that has informed my understanding of the driving forces behind the Daybell and Franke/Hildebrandt cases, and many others!
Wow! These 2 episodes were amazing. To see a book influence so many, and lead to lives being taken, is horrifying. Unless the leaders of the LDS church recognise the dangerous subcultures, fermenting in plain view, it faces cataclysmic failure.
Pretty much all major religions are influenced by books. • Bible •Quran •Scientology •Gida •Book of Mormon And on and on. The perpetuation of superstition and magical thinking is harmful to society, imo.
Both true statements here And I think this is a very fascinating time indeed we are witnessing things never witnessed before The Mormon church is one of the largest in membership all over the world …. It’s always amazed me that people gave Joseph Smith and his family such a pass …. But it also clues me in on the fact that that there is some kind of dark energy motivating this whole Mormon thing To be a witness to a cataclysmic failure of this organization would be interesting indeed Also I believe the dark powers that be want a one world religion to go along with the totalitarian control over the people of a one world government so the collapse and reorganization of certain religious groups cults churches is part of the agenda
@@marymorningstar6832 Your comment is so spot on! The LORD has certainly blessed you with a large measure of discernment. I am a born-again Christian and have found that the Evangelical church is filled with corruption. I have chosen not to be involved in organized religion but continue to pray and hold on tight to the Savior of my soul.
These stories in the news have brought me back into my faith crisis. I kept saying, "what is going on?"" Where is this all coming from?" It has caused me to reflect on teachings that are harmful especially teachings in the "past". Things we are told are in the past but still have roots in everything I've believed my entire life.
Thank you all for your work. When I attended BYU I took a class on Lectures of Faith. We read the talk from Bruce McConkie called 'Where is the Lord God of Joseph Smith" which discussed that the same gifts, visions and miracles in JS time should be in our time. The idea being we were lacking the faith. It was there I learned about the book Drawing on the Power of Heaven that I read on my mission.(Anyone else remember this book it?) Vallow-Daybell, Harker, Harrison are from my generation and we were all feed the idea that if we had enough righteousness and faith we could literally see/perform miracles. I remember thinking that as a youth. It's being repackaged now for a younger generation and it's absolutely frightening.
I was in college from 2006-2009 and though, I never specifically read those talks/books, I definitely was exposed to these teachings. I had a chronic illness that wasn't being healed by priesthood blessings, or by being "good enough", which sent me into depression because I wasn't "righteous/faithful enough to be healed". Now, years after the fact I'm realizing that the depression and suicidal thoughts I experienced at that time were completely unnecessary - it was all based on untrue church doctrine and culture. I wonder if my experience would have been different without all the pressure to be perfect so I could be "miraculously healed". Also, church pressure to get married young... That had a lot to do with it too.
My jaw dropped when I saw you were doing an episode on Visions of Glory! It brought back so many terrible memories of Elders on my reassignment mission (Orlando, FL) who collected and passed down binders full of lasts-days literature. Visions of Glory was widely referred to as "deep doctrine" and spoken about in hushed tones. I also remember other prophecies having been printed out and discussed with horrific, non-canonized last-days imagery. (Think dead saints lining city roadways in body bags, a disease where people get purple spots - that kind of thing...) We had a copy of Visions of Glory on our bookshelf growing up, and I have extended family (in Virginia; not just Utah) who take its teachings seriously and/or literally. I remember having nightmares about the demon-infested cracked skulls of porn-users. I've since deconstructed, but this episode helped me put a nail in the coffin of those horrible teachings. Can't thank you four enough.
Wow what a great presentation that ties so much together. I had not realized how connected all of these cases are. Thank you guys so much. Back when Lauren did her interview with Braxton, I had a whole big long angry comment written, but I didn’t post it. God bless Lauren for her intelligence and composure throughout that interview, and bless Braxton for his honesty and giving us a glimpse at what a lot of people think. It’s shocking and scary, but real. I haven’t ever known a Mormon. I’m just a follower of the Vallow-Daybell case who has followed other cases since. I’m a big fan of Hidden True Crime and now Mormon Stories since Jessie’s interview. Thank you all for tying everything together and making connections to this book - fiction written by a man, that’s taken as scripture. I’m struck by Meghan’s intelligence and insight. Appreciate you all.
Hearing the conversation about young adults' single biggest problem being porn is so upsetting. There are so many people out there with dire problems including safety issues, yet all this gets minimized or overlooked. It's so invalidating and uncaring.
Lori, did you see yourself grieving your children…by the ocean doin’ the hula rakin in the dough from your dead child’s funds? You are not a grieving mother and if you’re so sure you did the right thing with your kids, why the lying, secrecy, fraud, etc.?
Well we even have families rejecting family members after Nelson's latest talk to only listen to believers. It's like they wanted to throw fuel on the fire.
I grew up Catholic and had professors that talked about the inherent evil in babies and small children. Looking back it’s chilled me to my core. Im no longer religious for context. But old school Catholics have a very similar dark outlook on the inherent nature of people and that vain in any religion is toxic. If any God made us let alone in his image, “beautifully and lovingly”, intentionally.. I don’t think the inherent nature of people is darkness and as a mom who has cared for many infants, they knew nothing of evil, they are the closest thing to purity I have experienced. It is the world that corrupts, and people in power using a religion to shape peoples world view for their own gain is the purest evil IMO
John, your panel today includes three very smart, insightful women. Thank you for this information. It helps me understand some of the radical politics we are seeing in the western U.S.
This was the absolute perfect panel for this topic and so well done. I followed all of these cases and to tie it all into this book (along with others) is absolutely fascinating. I hope it will open some eyes and hearts to reconsider if they are following these "teachings."
I listened late into the night and it was not a good sleep. This terrifying truth really got to me. Keep it up because the people (lemmings) need a spotlight directly on them and their deeds 😢😢
This tragedy brought Lauren out of retirement from journalism professionally. Her reporting skills, respect fir the victims and combined with her husband's (Dr. Babe!) expertise in criminal psycology l, they are the dream team of information for sure!!
Yes! Omg, this non stop destructive Mormon train just keeps going! I don’t know how they have the emotional strength to keep up with all this craziness!
Excellent panel. I’m impressed by the way the four of you shared the time, with each of you having the spotlight for a time and then supporting the others when the spotlight shifted. I’m left feeling sad by the episodes, for a very personal reason - in the summer and fall of 1970 Thom Harrison was my roommate while we attended a TV/radio broadcasting school in Hollywood. I stayed a night or two at his family home in Banning/Beaumont, CA. A year later Thom was a “witness” at my temple marriage and then sang at the wedding reception (he has an excellent singing voice). We attended a young marrieds FHE group together. A decade later in the early ‘80s when I was a bishop in SLC I referred a couple of sexual abuse victims to Thom for therapy (he was very helpful to them and they never reported anything odd or inappropriate to me at that time). When I moved from SLC in 1985 I lost touch with him, and a few years later I was out of the church. When I knew him, 40-50 years ago, Thom was a kind and gentle soul who showed no signs of the very troubled and troublesome path he would eventually walk down. As Megan said about Lori, the Thom of today is not the person I knew then (with one exception, he spoke then, in terms of pace, intonation, and mannerisms, exactly as he does now). I grieve for the many people who have been seriously hurt in the wake left by “Spencer”. Like you I hope the church does more to denounce the book and those who have perpetrated its harmful content. But, as John and others noted, the core issues you deftly covered transcend Thom Harrison, John Pontius and Visions of Glory. The taproot of the threat presented by the book and its resulting cult is found elsewhere - in the history, teachings, scriptures, doctrines (theological and eschatological) and leadership of the LDS Church. It’s all so very Mormon in its source and nature. Each of the rotten apples you discussed did not fall far from the tree that grew them. Because even a casual observer can see the connection it is in the church’s best interest to speak up and act in a decisive manner. BTW, I was reminded of the lyric in a song from the musical Paint Your Wagon, which had several Mormon references, that says, “I talk to the trees but they don’t listen to me….”😊 Now I’m off to click on the “Donate” button.
You kinda wonder, while she's spewing her word salad, if she can even understand what she is saying. Can she follow it, or is it just a methodology? Kinda a formula she made up to just reflect everything back to them. Idk, it's weird for sure, and I really don't think she even understands it. It's not about that. It's about they need to think it's them, and I can show the way
I agree! We are all like kids sitting in the back row of church with a case of the giggles. Reminds me of Mary Tyler Moore at Chuckles the Clown’s funeral.
I watched the full interview with Braxton on Hidden Crime, to me it was the most difficult interview to listen to. The man is really influenced by many of the conspiracies we associate with the most unstable and possibly dangerous elements destabilising the U.S. today, and very common in the ‘prepper’ movement. It is hard to understand how relatively intelligent, family oriented people get into these belief systems.
Yes I found Braxton's interview particularly disturbing & am glad they used clips here. Part 1 today, going over the just plain terrible Visions of Glory book, helped me understand Braxton's interview comments. People like Braxton have been swayed by.cultic mind control & propaganda techniques that fester and get reinforced in their echo chambers - see the BITE model & Dr. Hassan's work. It seems like the high control Mormon context makes many people especially vulnerable. As a society these people are collectively dangerous to democracy - Lauren pointed out theor common QAnontype extreme political beliefs. They need deprogramming & deconversion yet there is no means or effort to help them, just more polarization & fearbased reinforcement. I am very alarmed by what could happen next. And so angry & sad about all the abuse, deaths, and harm already from this deluded web of people and their unhinged beliefs.
I haven’t started watching yet (I’m very excited to listen to this live! ) but I’ve seen the connection with Tim Ballard, Jodi Hildebrandt & Daniel Gray from Lifestar Network speaking at the Eternal Core Conference.
I think what kills me about their delusions is, it not only makes them kill, but it has the indecency of giving them these saccharin reassurances from the ghosts of their victims, singing their praises, thanking them for murdering them, assuaging all guilt. No mom, you did good mom, we should have died mom. We were young but thats fine, death is better mom, you're such a great mom. It wouldn't bring Tylee and JJ back, but knowing that deep down they know they did wrong would mean a whole lot to me.
They are not delusional. They are hateful, selfish murderers looking for excuses to murder the people they perceive to be in the way of their happiness. Awful people have always used religion for their awful actions.
This was wild to see the thread between all of these cases. I kept thinking there has to be something in common with all the heinous cases and DAAAAAAMN. These people are lost in the weeds! Thank you for linking all of this and highlighting the rot within!
I just noticed that in Lori's sentencing she was visited by all deceased family members except her murdered husband. Id think they would be the first to visit her....
My friend left this public review for LDS Family Services on Google about 6 years ago: I am a member of the church and feel like I have never been so disrespected or treated like my life doesn't matter at all. I had Kip Landon as my therapist for marriage counseling and I couldn't have felt so betrayed by someone with absolutely no morals whatsoever...not only did he give horrible advice but he also lied to me mulitiple times...oh by the way he was also have a relationship with my wife at the same time. I have never felt so disgusted by another human being than by Kip Landon. And even after the proof of evidence that he was doing these things they continued to let him work there and it seems as if though no action was taken place. It More or so messed me up mentally more than I already was. The only good thing I have going for me at this point is knowing that justice is in the hands of God and he will reap his reward here on this earth at some point!
@@jessicathurston6494I'm pretty sure my friend did. Kip has been flagged with a malpractice record on his profile, but as far as I know he is still practicing... If you Google LDS Family Services in Provo Utah, you'll see a bunch of negative reviews from people who have had a terrible experience with a lot of the therapist's there 😕
Your friend, if they're following mormon stories at all, might do well to make a complaint of professional misconduct to whatever therapist governing body the guy belongs to... he should definitely listen to Adam Steeds story, great if it's still on true crime...
I also went to therapy at LDS family services as a teenager and my therapist was awful to me. She would shame me and make me feel like it was my fault that I was depressed. I also left feeling much worse than when I started. I hated my experience so much that I refused to go to therapy again for many years afterward and it wasn't until I finally spoke with a Physician about what I was feeling and it was received with kindness and support that I finally started to make progress in my mental health. It's so validating to hear things like this.
Really? How can you tell? If doesnt sound any crazier than any other religious reality denial. Did you hear that Meagan said "that's not Lori, that's not my cousin" just like Lori thought her children were not her children.
Yeah, I can guarantee you, if she gave that testimony in a sacrament meeting, or even general conference, people would be tearing up because they "feel the spirit" in her words.
As a licensed, practicing clinical psychologist, I can say that ALL good therapists formulate hypotheses about clients based on the limited information they get prior to the first visit then they revise those hypotheses as they learn more about the clients' stories. That's not divine intervention or spirits or ancestors telling them what to do. That's called ethical practice utilizing strong clinical judgement based on accurate empathy and an evidence-based understanding of the clinical data before you. Someone attributing that to some spiritual/mystical knowledge or communication is frightening, especially if systems of belief contrast with evidence based theories and practices.
These extreme beliefs masked as not mainstream have been around for DECADES and are very mainstream within this church. It’s a shame it has not been discussed more. Would have saved a lot of sanity and lives.
I've never heard a NDE person say that their spirit dropped to the floor. All of them say that they rose to the ceiling and watched everything from above.
This episode, along with each of the panelists, is outstanding. Thanks for the research that shows the common thread of the surge in dangerous Mormons.
Megan mentioned writing a book, I am so intrigued! Please let us know when it will be available if you can. Love this panel, what a great job done by all of you.
Thank you all, fantastic work. My mind is blown with this Vision of Glory. John and Lauren praise God lil J.J. will very returning to his grandparents. Rest lil angel
Great panel and great work here. You are all fair, courageous and very human. Does my heart good to know that fearless and intelligent people are standing up in the face of seemingly insurmountable idiocy and calculating--destructive practices. Keep asking the questions, no matter where the answers take you. We are better for it.
Watching part 2 this morning and just had to pause after Lori’s court statement. I had not listened to this and I am in unbelief at what she says. Calling Tammy her eternal friend is horrible. But the way she talks about Tylee and JJ with really no sadness, and even joy that they are happy and not angry with her. This is a narcissist trying to make herself look good. Her statement is mostly about her, with no remorse for the horrid things she has done. Now to take a deep breath and finish watching…
Thom was the therapist for someone very close to me for many years. I would love to put you in touch with them. I saw him once when I was a teen but refused to go back because I felt uncomfortable with how he spoke to me.
I finally had a chance to listen to this today. SO good. Thanks for all the details. John when you wheezed laughed oh my gosh, it had me laughing. I laugh the same way when I find something super funny 😂 And very interesting about the Church’s stance on the 12 step program being introduced around 2009. Jodi learned this from her time at Cirque Lodge when she worked there from 2003-2007. She also started doing this in her therapy up until her arrest. As you know when Jessi spoke to you about them doing the 12 step program because Jodi said they were an addict. I’ll have to re listen to hear what other program was mentioned besides Lifestar Network. Sorry for the long comment, I really enjoyed this video!
Hey John. I've been a 'Scientology watcher' long before I was a 'Mormonism watcher' and I'm not even sure you know how similar all this is to Scientology. It would be cool if you could get Chris Shelton back on to discuss the similarities of some parts of Scientology.
I read Return from Tomorrow by Ritchie in 1978, the same year I graduated from high school. My grandmother had read it and recommended it to me. I clearly remember the bar scene where the evil spirits entered through the drunken person's head. I thought the book was highly questionable, even at age 18. As I listened to Part 1 of this interview series, I kept thinking that Harrison had "borrowed" the idea, AKA plagiarized it! I also remember in Ritchie's book that evil spirits surrounded people who were thinking of "sinning." This idea (which now sounds completely crazy!) somehow haunted me throughout my teenage and early-adult years and caused me quite a bit of anxiety for several years!
Thank you for bringing up "Return from Tomorrow". Some of the stories sounded so familiar, but I've never read Visions of Glory. I was pretty confused why that was
Currently watching your video. I never comment on anything but i feel like i need to say this. I live in Bendigo Victoria Australia and i have been following the Daybell case. I am not religious and i just stumbled across Lori's interview when Charles died. I spent my pregnancy following the trial and celebrated the best Mother's Day with my new baby girl and my mum and waking up to Lori being sentenced during my 4am feed haha In this video you mentioned that people should say Tylee and JJ, and i wanted to say they are always in my thoughts they have both touched my heart in so many ways and I don't even know them! They must have been so beautiful to touch hearts from all over the world.
Y’all are truly a kick-ass team of quintessentially professional, pro-social, open-minded and kind-hearted humans! Thank you from a Christian woman for showing wise-minded respect for the equally important foundations of my theology: Scripture, Reason,Tradition and New Gems of Truth (based only on what is truly congruent with the golden rule)❤ THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ALL!!!
The thing that makes me angriest about Lori’s sentencing statement is how she shares extraordinarily personal details about Tylee’s life with the public. Would Tylee have said she never felt good and that her body didn’t work right? Did she want allegations about sexual abuse shared with the world? To me it sounds like Lori’s saying she did Tylee a favor in murdering her, and I think it’s the most heartless, appalling thing a mother could say. Also, Lori’s NDE story is almost identical to Thom’s. “They put something in my IV and my spirit fell through the table”?
Lori thinks people are going to hear her testimony and believe her the way her group does. She’s even using the spirit conference voice. And instead we’re all like 😶😳🤬😢 She is so disturbed.
My brother, 42 years old, was doing all this crap. Same exact pattern. The wife is gonna die, etc. I called him out as a teen and caught Hell. Changed my life, and it gave me a very astute BS monitor.
I just had an interesting thought - not only was Visions of Glory a big favorite amongst these groups, and helped perpetuate a lot of their egos, but what if the seed had already been planted? Not only through the church’s teachings of elitism thinking, but also through PATRIARCHAL BLESSINGS! Many blessings mention the second coming and how the receiver and/or their kids will play important roles in the second coming and in his supervision over this world! Take someone like that and give them “Return from tomorrow” and “Visions of Glory” and second coming teachings and fear mongering and it’s a recipe for disaster…
The church fuels the paranoia, though. And when I tell friends that the church needs to shut up about the second coming, then I'm seen as speaking against a prophet. These prophecies have been propagated by the church prophets throughout its history.
Thank you for an excellent discussion into what is happening/happened within this prepping movement. The fact that anyone would ever think Chad Daybell is/was a person of god blew my mind. I am not Mormon, but all of my uncle’s were ministers of very strict churches so I feel I understand some of how people can become extreme. These two episodes have been very eye opening.
Thanks for this series, it's been super eye opening. After hearing these podcasts, I asked my super devout believing Mormon mom if she had heard of or read this Visions of Glory. She's pushed a few books about NDEs and such onto me (over 10 years ex-mormon) over the years which I've never read. She said that yes she read it six months ago, given by her (super right wing) sister and thinks it's wonderful! She didn't see how any of the ideas presented there could be harmful, and that she would love me to read it. Right... What do you do when your family are brainwashed fanatics? Nothing I guess...
1:36:50 thank you Megan for bringing that up.. as someone who has their own mental health journey, I was very fragile when I first reached out for therapy… if I had a therapist tell me I was doing that to myself then, I wouldn’t have just felt sicker… I probably would have ended it. That rhetoric is so damaging.
One of the persistent themes in Mormonism, is the fact that imagination, revelation, promptings, Holy Ghost, delusions and fantasies are essentially indistinguishable concepts...so much so that even quite recently Elder Bednar delivered a sermon titled something like: "Quit worrying about it. Is it the Holy Ghost or me?" This goes all the way back to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon "Witnesses". In studying their early accounts and different times when they mentioned what they had experienced, it becomes obvious that it was primarily imaginary. They felt like they had to imagine supernatural things and events...so they did. And when they conjured up an imaginary experience or pictured something in their mind, they simply labeled it as a vision or something they had seen or felt "spiritually" and "by the power of God". Eventually, they then stopped qualifying it as a vision or spiritual experience and talked about it in the same terms as one would talk about a physical experience. David Whitmer also gave an insight into this mental two-step and three-step process when he recounted how Joseph Smith had explained the failure of the revelation about selling the BoM copyright in Canada, saying that some "revelations" are from god, some are from the devil and some are from his own mind. Figuring out which was which would inevitably just be a matter of hindsight and seeing what turned out well and what didn't. Then there was Martin Harris, the "Witness", who couldn't see the angel and the plates until Joseph Smith spent a huge amount of time coaching him into it through a process of praying for greater faith, obviously meaning that there was no physical angel and no physical golden plates for him to see. It was something that he had to imagine and picture in his mind, so that he could then relabel that as a "vision". He obviously had to be talked into seeing something that was not there. (You don't need prayer and faith to see real-world physical things. A real 1957 Chevy hubcap can be seen by anyone, if it's shoved in front of their face. No faith or prayer required.) All of the people connected to this Thomas Harrison revitalization of imagination and delusion being revelation and real alternative-realm experience, are basically engaged in the same thing. They want something to be true. They imagine it being true. They picture something in their mind that would happen if their imaginary constructs were true (such as Lori Daybell imagining her victims telling her she was innocent)...then they simply make the shift to it "being true" because they imagined it...and imagination is revelation...is vision...is spiritual...is the power of God.
I’m at the end of this incredible series, and I hear Lauren say “it’s extreme political beliefs, it’s not right or left.” I understand the importance of not alienating an audience with a right/left association, but I’ll say it: this is very much fueled by modern conservatism. Conservatives mythologizing national history and identity and support authoritarian heircharchy and the “extreme” beliefs are undeniably mirrored by the modern GOP. Their only political position is fear. They depend on whipping up their base with moral panic after moral panic regardless of the consequences. The rhetoric has gotten more extreme- not as a fringe phenomenon, but as the mainstream party line.
Lauren, it’s very brave of you to face the political issues involved. This movement is not the only so called religious movement in America with similar beliefs. The Christian White Nationalist movement is also preaching from the same radical pulpit, the aim is a Theist government, which is against The Constitution, but the end game is not leading people to Jesus the ambition is power. They want to tell everyone how they should live and what they should believe in. POWER not religion is the goal and behind it all the old problem of American racism. These issues have to to be faced before real anarchy and destruction takes over and America falls into real chaos. We had a taste of what that looks like on January 6th.
I know this comment will get buried coming in so late, but I just want to say *thank you* for calling out racism where you see it Mormon Stories Podcast, Hidden True Crime, and associates. It means so much and restores my faith in humanity in a world where extreme and terroristic voices seem to be emboldened more and more each day.
the thing that's wild to me about Thom and Jodi being licensed therapists is that they went through professional training in ethics and common therapy modalities that they are then completely contradicting and dismissing. like, was nodding along and getting accredited just something they had to do to have the kind of power they wanted?
There's a Mormon TH-camr, Shad Brooks of Shadiversity, who wrote a fantasy novel where characters who were acceptable targets of violence lacked "inner light" which is disturbingly close to this.
Thank you very much for all of your research and information. This explains so much and answers so many questions. Watching mormons become so extreme has been very confusing as its against everything I thought I knew about the religion I was born and raised in. All of the unanswered questions, judgemental people, high demand of time and 10%tithe were my reason for not being active as an adult. For that...40 years later... as the truth has been exposed, I am unexpectedly greatful.
That Wasatch UT area is so beautiful and seemingly perfect, with their family statues everywhere. You’d never know all of this was going on behind closed doors. 🤦🏻♀️ John made my day with his uncontrolled laughter. 😂
I admire Judge Boyce’s restraint. Listening to her speech, just wow😢😢😮😮 It’s all I, I, I. Calling Tammy her friend, just unconscionable 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ What’s with the “happy and busy” afterlife crap??
I'm going to comment this on a bunch of videos... Please cover the troubled teen industry. It's a heavily Mormon-influenced "therapeutic" industry that takes a lot of these ideas about therapy to the nth degree, except it's blasted at the kids 24/7, in the most extreme circumstances, and the kids know they have to comply (or at least convincingly pretend to comply) or they will continue to be held against their will, without legal justification, without a jury or lawyer or trial, for years in most cases. I've seen girls have to re-enact and take responsibility for sexual abuse they endured in childhood, blaming kids for their depression was a daily occurrence, and none of it is at will, and kids are cut off from all outside influence. You're missing a huge part of the picture if you ignore this industry.
Don't forget that many of those Mormon-based "therapeutic" based establishments try to keep the fact that they're Mormon-based a secret from the general public... wonder why... 🤔🤔
I listened to the first episode and WOWW! First thank you! Secondly, so much if it was weirdly sexual. How do readers and people who love the book not see that?? Lastly, I am Mexican-American and I grew up with so many “fantastical” beliefs from my great grandmother and my culture. Why is it that the stuff that many LatinX and Native people grew up believing is “weird” and “not right”, but this weird portal crap and these creatures who latch on is ok?? I feel like this is a very valid question. I’m trying to make it make sense.
The fantastical beliefs that your Mexican Grandmother believed and shared with you are not weird. When a group of people are oppressed the way native Americans and Mexicans living in the US proper have been and they feel powerless to stop it, it makes sense to me that they would develop metaphors, stories, supernatural events and happenings to make sense of their predicaments and to take back power from their oppressors. Regarding your observation that your culture’s “Fantastical” stories/beliefs are treated by the average American as “weird” and “not right” is accurate. It is common for groups of people to look at groups of other people who are different, look different, eat differently, have different beliefs and conclude that “those people” are weird. Humans have affinity for groups that are like themselves and an aversion to groups who are different. There is likely an evolutionary reason behind this group or tribal behavior that confers survivability upon the group.
What is Lori Vallow’s f’ing obsession about being “busy” in the afterlife?? I’m busy NOW, don’t I ever get to rest?!
😂😂😂
It’s Mormon theology. Someone’s gotta teach all those souls being baptized and married in the Mormon Temple.
Right?!? In MY heaven, I will be chilling
In MY Heaven, I want a freaking nap, anytime I want. That is all! I am a Mom, Crazy Nana, Helicopter Flight Nurse, Barn Goddess, and Wifey. I nap sounds glorious!
Yes , I’m curious about that as well. Lori kept emphasizing the fact that they were BUZY. What is with that ?
It is honestly terrifying that in 2023 there are people who are using phrases like “demonic forces” and “science” in the same sentence. This isn’t the 1400’s anymore. It’s mind boggling that they are serious. I can’t believe that the audience isn’t just busting up laughing! How does a therapist not immediately lose their license after saying things like that???
It's not just Mormons, either. Protestant Evangelicals talk the "demonic" bullcrap, too. I keep thinking that if science ever did invent a time machine, every dumb mf'er with dark ages thinking needs sent back to 1100 where they belong. And send the anti- vax nuts to the middle of a smallpox outbreak while they're at it.
It's so difficult and disappointing listening people after all these years, investigation, studies still believing in " demons/ bad spirits taking human bodies if you allowed them or if you are drunk..haven't we evolved at all?.…2023 people, 2023😢
It's not only that religion. There are other denominations that do these practices.
@@mr_rn6549who’s saying it’s just them?
Universal education hasn't eradicated stupidity, it just gave it a more advanced language.
I am not Mormon but I was raised by an ex Mormon who was prone to extreme views. I was abused throughout my childhood and programmed to believe destructive things, one of which was this “end times” prophesy. That, alone, is child abuse. After being kicked out of my home because I was being sexually harassed (of course it was my fault, not his) I attended therapy. My therapist was also abusive to me and when I finally reported her, she was arrested and lost her license to practice. I’m writing this to tell you how much I appreciate your work. Even though my experiences were tangentially related, I also feel they’re exactly the same. I wish peace and love to all of the victims in this case.
I want to say well done on having the strength to report your therapist. I hope her losing her licence was helpful to you and that you've found more ethical support since then to help in your recovery. It's hard to stand up against ppl in power especially when you have been abused and are still working on recovery. Respect and ❤
I think that's why this channel has such a broad reach. It touches on things that many ppl experienced (not just Mormons). I've never been mormon but have known many and had no idea the kind of weirdness that went on inside those walls
“The Last Days” trauma I experienced in the LDS Church was and still is extremely painful…
You are right. It’s child abuse.
I’m so sorry for what you went through. I went through very similar things as well. I hope you are happy and healthy today!!
The abuse that the church perpetuates is far-reaching, only hidden behind the fake smiles and cold countenances of its members... I'm sorry you went through that. Please know that you're not alone. ❤
The degrees of separation between these horrible people are bone chillingly small.
I recognize one of the people in the photograph at 1:08. He was my therapist for some time. I don't want to disparage him, as I always felt he had my best interest at heart, but he seemed to have a belief that everyone was a porn addict and needed treatment. He convinced me to go into a program that became increasingly time-intensive and costly. Eventually, I didn't feel like the program was really addressing my needs. I do recall him talking about another therapist he felt could give me more intensive help, and I believe it was Hildebrant, but I don't recall for sure. In hindsight, I see how damaging this program was to me psychologically. It was really focused on a problem I didn't have but was convinced that I did by the LDS culture. There were far more important things I should have been addressing. I don't have any ill will toward this counselor but I am disturbed about the concept and approach. I saw several others in the program who were brutally shamed, humiliated, and messed up by it. The whole problem was actually created by the religious culture in Utah.
Oh my God he did that to another people, take the church and her yo the la court for damage and consequences, they destroy your personality and your name.
The best part of the podcast was seeing John Dehlin burst into uncontrollable laughter!! It snapped me back into reality and blew away the Mormon fog.
This is the first time I’ve listened to Lori’s testimony and I couldn’t help but notice that she said shortly after JJ’s death he visited her and told her “you didn’t do anything wrong.” Why would he say that? To reassure herself that killing her kids was justified. She was truly brainwashed by these teachings.
That's terrifying!!!
She knew exactly what she was doing and had previous attempts on her third spouse. It's not brainwashing
I agree. She used killing to get rid of problems or get insurance money on their deaths.
I agree she knew exactly. The people in her way tended to be unalived.
Astronomical levels of delusion in her to believe that her own dead child told her she did nothing wrong... Disgusting human being.
I grew up in Utah and in that church. It was a very dark and toxic time in my life and still affects me to this day. I’m grateful to be free from the clutches of insanity but it’s not without scars. Every time I go to the state of Utah I feel such a dark and empty energy. I hope many more will be set free.
Despite never having been a member of the LDS Church, Mormon Stories has become a favorite channel of mine. I really appreciate your insights into the belief systems of these radical groups and, of course, your guests are always excellent! So happy to see Lauren Matthias join you, as it’s been her and Dr. John’s hard work that has informed my understanding of the driving forces behind the Daybell and Franke/Hildebrandt cases, and many others!
Great job Lauren figuring out these connections! What perceptive work!!! 👍👍👍
In addition to lots of hard work and talent, Lauren credited Kresha Kay Easton for some of there insights.
Wow! These 2 episodes were amazing. To see a book influence so many, and lead to lives being taken, is horrifying.
Unless the leaders of the LDS church recognise the dangerous subcultures, fermenting in plain view, it faces cataclysmic failure.
Pretty much all major religions are influenced by books.
• Bible
•Quran
•Scientology
•Gida
•Book of Mormon
And on and on. The perpetuation of superstition and magical thinking is harmful to society, imo.
Both true statements here
And I think this is a very fascinating time indeed we are witnessing things never witnessed before
The Mormon church is one of the largest in membership all over the world …. It’s always amazed me that people gave Joseph Smith and his family such a pass …. But it also clues me in on the fact that that there is some kind of dark energy motivating this whole Mormon thing
To be a witness to a cataclysmic failure of this organization would be interesting indeed
Also I believe the dark powers that be want a one world religion to go along with the totalitarian control over the people of a one world government so the collapse and reorganization of certain religious groups cults churches is part of the agenda
@@marymorningstar6832 Your comment is so spot on! The LORD has certainly blessed you with a large measure of discernment. I am a born-again Christian and have found that the Evangelical church is filled with corruption. I have chosen not to be involved in organized religion but continue to pray and hold on tight to the Savior of my soul.
Do you know what the "last episode" is that they keep referring to?
I've been waiting for this. I KNEW there was a connection. I just didn't think it'd be found this soon.
I'm shocked at the connection, but it all makes soooo much sense. Tragic sense.
These stories in the news have brought me back into my faith crisis. I kept saying, "what is going on?"" Where is this all coming from?" It has caused me to reflect on teachings that are harmful especially teachings in the "past". Things we are told are in the past but still have roots in everything I've believed my entire life.
💜
Thank you all for your work. When I attended BYU I took a class on Lectures of Faith. We read the talk from Bruce McConkie called 'Where is the Lord God of Joseph Smith" which discussed that the same gifts, visions and miracles in JS time should be in our time. The idea being we were lacking the faith. It was there I learned about the book Drawing on the Power of Heaven that I read on my mission.(Anyone else remember this book it?) Vallow-Daybell, Harker, Harrison are from my generation and we were all feed the idea that if we had enough righteousness and faith we could literally see/perform miracles. I remember thinking that as a youth. It's being repackaged now for a younger generation and it's absolutely frightening.
I was in college from 2006-2009 and though, I never specifically read those talks/books, I definitely was exposed to these teachings. I had a chronic illness that wasn't being healed by priesthood blessings, or by being "good enough", which sent me into depression because I wasn't "righteous/faithful enough to be healed". Now, years after the fact I'm realizing that the depression and suicidal thoughts I experienced at that time were completely unnecessary - it was all based on untrue church doctrine and culture. I wonder if my experience would have been different without all the pressure to be perfect so I could be "miraculously healed". Also, church pressure to get married young... That had a lot to do with it too.
@@AzzahTacoKitty So many of us have experienced trauma and shaming unnecessarily because of church leaders and members.
My jaw dropped when I saw you were doing an episode on Visions of Glory! It brought back so many terrible memories of Elders on my reassignment mission (Orlando, FL) who collected and passed down binders full of lasts-days literature. Visions of Glory was widely referred to as "deep doctrine" and spoken about in hushed tones. I also remember other prophecies having been printed out and discussed with horrific, non-canonized last-days imagery. (Think dead saints lining city roadways in body bags, a disease where people get purple spots - that kind of thing...) We had a copy of Visions of Glory on our bookshelf growing up, and I have extended family (in Virginia; not just Utah) who take its teachings seriously and/or literally. I remember having nightmares about the demon-infested cracked skulls of porn-users. I've since deconstructed, but this episode helped me put a nail in the coffin of those horrible teachings. Can't thank you four enough.
Wow what a great presentation that ties so much together. I had not realized how connected all of these cases are. Thank you guys so much. Back when Lauren did her interview with Braxton, I had a whole big long angry comment written, but I didn’t post it. God bless Lauren for her intelligence and composure throughout that interview, and bless Braxton for his honesty and giving us a glimpse at what a lot of people think. It’s shocking and scary, but real. I haven’t ever known a Mormon. I’m just a follower of the Vallow-Daybell case who has followed other cases since. I’m a big fan of Hidden True Crime and now Mormon Stories since Jessie’s interview. Thank you all for tying everything together and making connections to this book - fiction written by a man, that’s taken as scripture. I’m struck by Meghan’s intelligence and insight. Appreciate you all.
Hearing the conversation about young adults' single biggest problem being porn is so upsetting. There are so many people out there with dire problems including safety issues, yet all this gets minimized or overlooked. It's so invalidating and uncaring.
It's like a dark, unfunny version of the principal Skinner meme: "no, it's the p0rn that's the problem".
You have all worked so very hard to keep bringing these issues to the forefront. Such a great episode. Thank you guys. You are all fabulous 🫶
Such lovely, smart articulate women
As a social worker.... I never want to hear Tom or Jodi mention social work or therapy ever. They are hurting vulnerable people who deserve better.
Agreed.
Lori, did you see yourself grieving your children…by the ocean doin’ the hula rakin in the dough from your dead child’s funds? You are not a grieving mother and if you’re so sure you did the right thing with your kids, why the lying, secrecy, fraud, etc.?
What worries me is these people see evil in their children. And we just keep having tragic stories in the news involving LDS families or parents.
Well we even have families rejecting family members after Nelson's latest talk to only listen to believers. It's like they wanted to throw fuel on the fire.
Wow good point and it does seem to be a common thing with this group something important to take notice of
Good job!
I grew up Catholic and had professors that talked about the inherent evil in babies and small children. Looking back it’s chilled me to my core. Im no longer religious for context. But old school Catholics have a very similar dark outlook on the inherent nature of people and that vain in any religion is toxic. If any God made us let alone in his image, “beautifully and lovingly”, intentionally.. I don’t think the inherent nature of people is darkness and as a mom who has cared for many infants, they knew nothing of evil, they are the closest thing to purity I have experienced. It is the world that corrupts, and people in power using a religion to shape peoples world view for their own gain is the purest evil IMO
@@RebelYells-IntoVoid words of wisdom, and very beautifully said 🙏👍💖
John, your panel today includes three very smart, insightful women. Thank you for this information. It helps me understand some of the radical politics we are seeing in the western U.S.
This was the absolute perfect panel for this topic and so well done. I followed all of these cases and to tie it all into this book (along with others) is absolutely fascinating. I hope it will open some eyes and hearts to reconsider if they are following these "teachings."
Best podcast on the Internet.. it was great guys 🇬🇧
Well Done all of you! Very
Important to bring this Dangerous book to light! Full of infectious "Cult Club minded" concepts.
I listened late into the night and it was not a good sleep. This terrifying truth really got to me. Keep it up because the people (lemmings) need a spotlight directly on them and their deeds 😢😢
Lauren IS more than a good interviewer. She's extraordinary! You guys impress me!
This tragedy brought Lauren out of retirement from journalism professionally. Her reporting skills, respect fir the victims and combined with her husband's (Dr. Babe!) expertise in criminal psycology l, they are the dream team of information for sure!!
Hidden Gem here and I also agree that Lauren and Dr. Babe are the real deal!
You guys must be exhausted! Thanks for all the hard work today!
Yes! Omg, this non stop destructive Mormon train just keeps going! I don’t know how they have the emotional strength to keep up with all this craziness!
It’s amazing how these prophets reinforce these teachings by their silence
Excellent panel. I’m impressed by the way the four of you shared the time, with each of you having the spotlight for a time and then supporting the others when the spotlight shifted. I’m left feeling sad by the episodes, for a very personal reason - in the summer and fall of 1970 Thom Harrison was my roommate while we attended a TV/radio broadcasting school in Hollywood. I stayed a night or two at his family home in Banning/Beaumont, CA. A year later Thom was a “witness” at my temple marriage and then sang at the wedding reception (he has an excellent singing voice). We attended a young marrieds FHE group together. A decade later in the early ‘80s when I was a bishop in SLC I referred a couple of sexual abuse victims to Thom for therapy (he was very helpful to them and they never reported anything odd or inappropriate to me at that time). When I moved from SLC in 1985 I lost touch with him, and a few years later I was out of the church. When I knew him, 40-50 years ago, Thom was a kind and gentle soul who showed no signs of the very troubled and troublesome path he would eventually walk down. As Megan said about Lori, the Thom of today is not the person I knew then (with one exception, he spoke then, in terms of pace, intonation, and mannerisms, exactly as he does now). I grieve for the many people who have been seriously hurt in the wake left by “Spencer”. Like you I hope the church does more to denounce the book and those who have perpetrated its harmful content. But, as John and others noted, the core issues you deftly covered transcend Thom Harrison, John Pontius and Visions of Glory. The taproot of the threat presented by the book and its resulting cult is found elsewhere - in the history, teachings, scriptures, doctrines (theological and eschatological) and leadership of the LDS Church. It’s all so very Mormon in its source and nature. Each of the rotten apples you discussed did not fall far from the tree that grew them. Because even a casual observer can see the connection it is in the church’s best interest to speak up and act in a decisive manner. BTW, I was reminded of the lyric in a song from the musical Paint Your Wagon, which had several Mormon references, that says, “I talk to the trees but they don’t listen to me….”😊 Now I’m off to click on the “Donate” button.
Jonathan, thank you. I appreciate your thoughtful comment and hearing about your personal experience with Thom. - Mindy
Jodi Hildebrandt....winner of the highest-calorie word salad in all the land 😆
😂😂😂 “word salad”#sorrynotsorry
You kinda wonder, while she's spewing her word salad, if she can even understand what she is saying. Can she follow it, or is it just a methodology? Kinda a formula she made up to just reflect everything back to them. Idk, it's weird for sure, and I really don't think she even understands it. It's not about that. It's about they need to think it's them, and I can show the way
She should know the medic term is Schizophasia! But like most crazy people, it makes sense to them! 😂
I kept giggling when she said "being in hard". It just sounded so silly.
@@khaleesireyna731 🤣
Everyone cracking up at Jodi's spiel was such a great tension reliever as I was also giggling right along lol
I agree! We are all like kids sitting in the back row of church with a case of the giggles. Reminds me of Mary Tyler Moore at Chuckles the Clown’s funeral.
This was very helpful in understanding some of what these people believe - but the horror they inflict is still unbelievable
I watched the full interview with Braxton on Hidden Crime, to me it was the most difficult interview to listen to. The man is really influenced by many of the conspiracies we associate with the most unstable and possibly dangerous elements destabilising the U.S. today, and very common in the ‘prepper’ movement. It is hard to understand how relatively intelligent, family oriented people get into these belief systems.
Racist aswell. Just tried not to show it!
Yes I found Braxton's interview particularly disturbing & am glad they used clips here. Part 1 today, going over the just plain terrible Visions of Glory book, helped me understand Braxton's interview comments. People like Braxton have been swayed by.cultic mind control & propaganda techniques that fester and get reinforced in their echo chambers - see the BITE model & Dr. Hassan's work. It seems like the high control Mormon context makes many people especially vulnerable. As a society these people are collectively dangerous to democracy - Lauren pointed out theor common QAnontype extreme political beliefs. They need deprogramming & deconversion yet there is no means or effort to help them, just more polarization & fearbased reinforcement. I am very alarmed by what could happen next. And so angry & sad about all the abuse, deaths, and harm already from this deluded web of people and their unhinged beliefs.
I haven’t started watching yet (I’m very excited to listen to this live! ) but I’ve seen the connection with Tim Ballard, Jodi Hildebrandt & Daniel Gray from Lifestar Network speaking at the Eternal Core Conference.
I think what kills me about their delusions is, it not only makes them kill, but it has the indecency of giving them these saccharin reassurances from the ghosts of their victims, singing their praises, thanking them for murdering them, assuaging all guilt. No mom, you did good mom, we should have died mom. We were young but thats fine, death is better mom, you're such a great mom.
It wouldn't bring Tylee and JJ back, but knowing that deep down they know they did wrong would mean a whole lot to me.
They are not delusional. They are hateful, selfish murderers looking for excuses to murder the people they perceive to be in the way of their happiness. Awful people have always used religion for their awful actions.
Not delusions intentional homicide
@@judiashley5818 Yeah, delusional people can murder people. Not exactly mutually exclusive.
and after all this time she's (Lori) still in the same place.
An MS marathon-great work y’all 👏👏👏 I couldn’t finish Lauren’s interview with Braxton, not because of Lauren.
Braxton is one scary dude - watching that smug look on his face really ticked me off on so many levels.
I feel you. I am amazed that this guy holds so many beliefs that align with Chad and Lori Vallow. It's very creepy.
John bursting laughing at the clip with Jody the witch is everything lol
This was wild to see the thread between all of these cases. I kept thinking there has to be something in common with all the heinous cases and DAAAAAAMN. These people are lost in the weeds! Thank you for linking all of this and highlighting the rot within!
Thank you for enabling auto-subtitles, I appreciate it!
I just noticed that in Lori's sentencing she was visited by all deceased family members except her murdered husband. Id think they would be the first to visit her....
Her brother didn’t seem to pay a visit either 🤔
@@andreas.3893great point.
I found Tammy visiting her just as bizarre.
She'll probably say that in her trial for his murder.
@@andreas.3893 wow I did not even think about that!
My friend left this public review for LDS Family Services on Google about 6 years ago: I am a member of the church and feel like I have never been so disrespected or treated like my life doesn't matter at all. I had Kip Landon as my therapist for marriage counseling and I couldn't have felt so betrayed by someone with absolutely no morals whatsoever...not only did he give horrible advice but he also lied to me mulitiple times...oh by the way he was also have a relationship with my wife at the same time. I have never felt so disgusted by another human being than by Kip Landon. And even after the proof of evidence that he was doing these things they continued to let him work there and it seems as if though no action was taken place. It More or so messed me up mentally more than I already was. The only good thing I have going for me at this point is knowing that justice is in the hands of God and he will reap his reward here on this earth at some point!
I'm so sorry for what happened to you. I can not imagine. There will be justice in God's time. Rest assured.
Have you reported Kip to DOPL (division of occupational and professional licensing)?
@@jessicathurston6494I'm pretty sure my friend did. Kip has been flagged with a malpractice record on his profile, but as far as I know he is still practicing... If you Google LDS Family Services in Provo Utah, you'll see a bunch of negative reviews from people who have had a terrible experience with a lot of the therapist's there 😕
Your friend, if they're following mormon stories at all, might do well to make a complaint of professional misconduct to whatever therapist governing body the guy belongs to... he should definitely listen to Adam Steeds story, great if it's still on true crime...
I also went to therapy at LDS family services as a teenager and my therapist was awful to me. She would shame me and make me feel like it was my fault that I was depressed. I also left feeling much worse than when I started. I hated my experience so much that I refused to go to therapy again for many years afterward and it wasn't until I finally spoke with a Physician about what I was feeling and it was received with kindness and support that I finally started to make progress in my mental health. It's so validating to hear things like this.
Lori's testimony is insane ..this is the first time I hear it and it chilling...absolute insanity.
Really? How can you tell? If doesnt sound any crazier than any other religious reality denial. Did you hear that Meagan said "that's not Lori, that's not my cousin" just like Lori thought her children were not her children.
Yeah, I can guarantee you, if she gave that testimony in a sacrament meeting, or even general conference, people would be tearing up because they "feel the spirit" in her words.
@@ElroyMF1I hope one day religion is recognized as mental illness
It really isn't any crazier than anything Mormonism claims.
As a licensed, practicing clinical psychologist, I can say that ALL good therapists formulate hypotheses about clients based on the limited information they get prior to the first visit then they revise those hypotheses as they learn more about the clients' stories. That's not divine intervention or spirits or ancestors telling them what to do. That's called ethical practice utilizing strong clinical judgement based on accurate empathy and an evidence-based understanding of the clinical data before you. Someone attributing that to some spiritual/mystical knowledge or communication is frightening, especially if systems of belief contrast with evidence based theories and practices.
These extreme beliefs masked as not mainstream have been around for DECADES and are very mainstream within this church. It’s a shame it has not been discussed more. Would have saved a lot of sanity and lives.
I've never heard a NDE person say that their spirit dropped to the floor. All of them say that they rose to the ceiling and watched everything from above.
This episode, along with each of the panelists, is outstanding. Thanks for the research that shows the common thread of the surge in dangerous Mormons.
Megan mentioned writing a book, I am so intrigued! Please let us know when it will be available if you can. Love this panel, what a great job done by all of you.
It's available, already, it's called I Walked Through Fire to Get Here.
Thank you all, fantastic work. My mind is blown with this Vision of Glory. John and Lauren praise God lil J.J. will very returning to his grandparents. Rest lil angel
Thank you~
Extremely enlightening.
Love & Light from Long Island, New York~
💛🕊🤗🕊💛
John, congratulations for 200,000 viewers! You’re making amazing content!
Great panel and great work here. You are all fair, courageous and very human. Does my heart good to know that fearless and intelligent people are standing up in the face of seemingly insurmountable idiocy and calculating--destructive practices. Keep asking the questions, no matter where the answers take you. We are better for it.
Watching part 2 this morning and just had to pause after Lori’s court statement. I had not listened to this and I am in unbelief at what she says. Calling Tammy her eternal friend is horrible. But the way she talks about Tylee and JJ with really no sadness, and even joy that they are happy and not angry with her. This is a narcissist trying to make herself look good. Her statement is mostly about her, with no remorse for the horrid things she has done. Now to take a deep breath and finish watching…
Thom was the therapist for someone very close to me for many years. I would love to put you in touch with them. I saw him once when I was a teen but refused to go back because I felt uncomfortable with how he spoke to me.
I finally had a chance to listen to this today. SO good. Thanks for all the details. John when you wheezed laughed oh my gosh, it had me laughing. I laugh the same way when I find something super funny 😂 And very interesting about the Church’s stance on the 12 step program being introduced around 2009. Jodi learned this from her time at Cirque Lodge when she worked there from 2003-2007. She also started doing this in her therapy up until her arrest. As you know when Jessi spoke to you about them doing the 12 step program because Jodi said they were an addict. I’ll have to re listen to hear what other program was mentioned besides Lifestar Network. Sorry for the long comment, I really enjoyed this video!
I love that he didn't mute his mic. 😂
Hey John. I've been a 'Scientology watcher' long before I was a 'Mormonism watcher' and I'm not even sure you know how similar all this is to Scientology. It would be cool if you could get Chris Shelton back on to discuss the similarities of some parts of Scientology.
Yesss.. there are so many parallels. Scientology is the aggressive and LDS is the passive.. there exactly alike!
I read Return from Tomorrow by Ritchie in 1978, the same year I graduated from high school. My grandmother had read it and recommended it to me. I clearly remember the bar scene where the evil spirits entered through the drunken person's head. I thought the book was highly questionable, even at age 18. As I listened to Part 1 of this interview series, I kept thinking that Harrison had "borrowed" the idea, AKA plagiarized it! I also remember in Ritchie's book that evil spirits surrounded people who were thinking of "sinning." This idea (which now sounds completely crazy!) somehow haunted me throughout my teenage and early-adult years and caused me quite a bit of anxiety for several years!
Thank you for bringing up "Return from Tomorrow". Some of the stories sounded so familiar, but I've never read Visions of Glory. I was pretty confused why that was
Yeah I read that book. My ex's mom had me read it.
Currently watching your video.
I never comment on anything but i feel like i need to say this.
I live in Bendigo Victoria Australia and i have been following the Daybell case.
I am not religious and i just stumbled across Lori's interview when Charles died.
I spent my pregnancy following the trial and celebrated the best Mother's Day with my new baby girl and my mum and waking up to Lori being sentenced during my 4am feed haha
In this video you mentioned that people should say Tylee and JJ, and i wanted to say they are always in my thoughts they have both touched my heart in so many ways and I don't even know them!
They must have been so beautiful to touch hearts from all over the world.
Megan, you are an awesome person. No matter how those delusional half wit cousins, relatives are feeling about you.
Thank you for the support!!
P
I listened to your podcast last spring. I was impressed with your freshness and simplicity. Very inviting. Thank you.
Appreciate ALL your work! Put so many pieces together for me! OH MY GOSH! Love HTC..,love your whole panel! ❤
Y’all are truly a kick-ass team of quintessentially professional, pro-social, open-minded and kind-hearted humans! Thank you from a Christian woman for showing wise-minded respect for the equally important foundations of my theology: Scripture, Reason,Tradition and New Gems of Truth (based only on what is truly congruent with the golden rule)❤ THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ALL!!!
The giggling at Jodi was gorgeous John
It highlighted the banality of evil (with thanks to Hannah Arendt)
The thing that makes me angriest about Lori’s sentencing statement is how she shares extraordinarily personal details about Tylee’s life with the public. Would Tylee have said she never felt good and that her body didn’t work right? Did she want allegations about sexual abuse shared with the world? To me it sounds like Lori’s saying she did Tylee a favor in murdering her, and I think it’s the most heartless, appalling thing a mother could say.
Also, Lori’s NDE story is almost identical to Thom’s. “They put something in my IV and my spirit fell through the table”?
Lori thinks people are going to hear her testimony and believe her the way her group does. She’s even using the spirit conference voice. And instead we’re all like 😶😳🤬😢 She is so disturbed.
Amazing podcast! The content and conversations were brilliant. Well done!
John laughing during the Jodi Hildebrandt clip had me cackling too 😂🤣
Sad and fascinating. Thanks for all the work and info!
My brother, 42 years old, was doing all this crap. Same exact pattern. The wife is gonna die, etc. I called him out as a teen and caught Hell. Changed my life, and it gave me a very astute BS monitor.
The therapist taking his patient to a temple???? Saying she is an eternal wife??? This guy needs his license revoked.
Exactly what I thought. He is crossing major boundaries. I bet there is worse stuff we haven’t heard about.
You guys are amazing. It's all starting to make sense now.
I just had an interesting thought - not only was Visions of Glory a big favorite amongst these groups, and helped perpetuate a lot of their egos, but what if the seed had already been planted?
Not only through the church’s teachings of elitism thinking, but also through PATRIARCHAL BLESSINGS!
Many blessings mention the second coming and how the receiver and/or their kids will play important roles in the second coming and in his supervision over this world!
Take someone like that and give them “Return from tomorrow” and “Visions of Glory” and second coming teachings and fear mongering and it’s a recipe for disaster…
The church fuels the paranoia, though. And when I tell friends that the church needs to shut up about the second coming, then I'm seen as speaking against a prophet. These prophecies have been propagated by the church prophets throughout its history.
Don't bother telling friends who don't want to hear it. They will turn against you fast.
This set of videos was so informative, I watched it twice. I didn't want to miss a thing!
Thank you for an excellent discussion into what is happening/happened within this prepping movement. The fact that anyone would ever think Chad Daybell is/was a person of god blew my mind. I am not Mormon, but all of my uncle’s were ministers of very strict churches so I feel I understand some of how people can become extreme. These two episodes have been very eye opening.
Excellent…. Excellent informative podcast today!!!
You guys did an excellent job. Thank you.
Thanks for this series, it's been super eye opening. After hearing these podcasts, I asked my super devout believing Mormon mom if she had heard of or read this Visions of Glory. She's pushed a few books about NDEs and such onto me (over 10 years ex-mormon) over the years which I've never read. She said that yes she read it six months ago, given by her (super right wing) sister and thinks it's wonderful! She didn't see how any of the ideas presented there could be harmful, and that she would love me to read it. Right... What do you do when your family are brainwashed fanatics? Nothing I guess...
1:36:50 thank you Megan for bringing that up.. as someone who has their own mental health journey, I was very fragile when I first reached out for therapy… if I had a therapist tell me I was doing that to myself then, I wouldn’t have just felt sicker… I probably would have ended it. That rhetoric is so damaging.
One of the persistent themes in Mormonism, is the fact that imagination, revelation, promptings, Holy Ghost, delusions and fantasies are essentially indistinguishable concepts...so much so that even quite recently Elder Bednar delivered a sermon titled something like: "Quit worrying about it. Is it the Holy Ghost or me?"
This goes all the way back to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon "Witnesses". In studying their early accounts and different times when they mentioned what they had experienced, it becomes obvious that it was primarily imaginary. They felt like they had to imagine supernatural things and events...so they did. And when they conjured up an imaginary experience or pictured something in their mind, they simply labeled it as a vision or something they had seen or felt "spiritually" and "by the power of God". Eventually, they then stopped qualifying it as a vision or spiritual experience and talked about it in the same terms as one would talk about a physical experience.
David Whitmer also gave an insight into this mental two-step and three-step process when he recounted how Joseph Smith had explained the failure of the revelation about selling the BoM copyright in Canada, saying that some "revelations" are from god, some are from the devil and some are from his own mind. Figuring out which was which would inevitably just be a matter of hindsight and seeing what turned out well and what didn't.
Then there was Martin Harris, the "Witness", who couldn't see the angel and the plates until Joseph Smith spent a huge amount of time coaching him into it through a process of praying for greater faith, obviously meaning that there was no physical angel and no physical golden plates for him to see. It was something that he had to imagine and picture in his mind, so that he could then relabel that as a "vision". He obviously had to be talked into seeing something that was not there. (You don't need prayer and faith to see real-world physical things. A real 1957 Chevy hubcap can be seen by anyone, if it's shoved in front of their face. No faith or prayer required.)
All of the people connected to this Thomas Harrison revitalization of imagination and delusion being revelation and real alternative-realm experience, are basically engaged in the same thing. They want something to be true. They imagine it being true. They picture something in their mind that would happen if their imaginary constructs were true (such as Lori Daybell imagining her victims telling her she was innocent)...then they simply make the shift to it "being true" because they imagined it...and imagination is revelation...is vision...is spiritual...is the power of God.
You all did an amazing job on giving clear information in an interesting format! Wow!⚡️
I’m at the end of this incredible series, and I hear Lauren say “it’s extreme political beliefs, it’s not right or left.” I understand the importance of not alienating an audience with a right/left association, but I’ll say it: this is very much fueled by modern conservatism. Conservatives mythologizing national history and identity and support authoritarian heircharchy and the “extreme” beliefs are undeniably mirrored by the modern GOP. Their only political position is fear. They depend on whipping up their base with moral panic after moral panic regardless of the consequences. The rhetoric has gotten more extreme- not as a fringe phenomenon, but as the mainstream party line.
Worth all the effort guys. A great panel discussion. This and the prior ep have to be some of my fave episodes.
The funniest part of this was the line "god centric mental health" 😂 Anyway, I'm going to go squirt out an evil spirit now.
OH MY GOSH! SOOOOO CLOSE TO 200K!!!!
You have truly done an excellent job getting all this info together. This is very eye opening.
Thanks to all of you. Great jog as always! 😊
Lauren, it’s very brave of you to face the political issues involved. This movement is not the only so called religious movement in America with similar beliefs. The Christian White Nationalist movement is also preaching from the same radical pulpit, the aim is a Theist government, which is against The Constitution, but the end game is not leading people to Jesus the ambition is power. They want to tell everyone how they should live and what they should believe in. POWER not religion is the goal and behind it all the old problem of American racism. These issues have to to be faced before real anarchy and destruction takes over and America falls into real chaos. We had a taste of what that looks like on January 6th.
Many Europeans are so glad the Mid Atlantic Ridge pushes us an inch further away from the USA every year.
😂😂😂 can't say I blame them.
Chuckle.
I know this comment will get buried coming in so late, but I just want to say *thank you* for calling out racism where you see it Mormon Stories Podcast, Hidden True Crime, and associates. It means so much and restores my faith in humanity in a world where extreme and terroristic voices seem to be emboldened more and more each day.
Mindy is such a pro by this point! She really moderated so smoothly. Ran this pod like a well-oiled machine
Omg I was thinking while you were laughing, you know we can hear you 😂😂😂😂😂❤❤❤❤
the thing that's wild to me about Thom and Jodi being licensed therapists is that they went through professional training in ethics and common therapy modalities that they are then completely contradicting and dismissing. like, was nodding along and getting accredited just something they had to do to have the kind of power they wanted?
There's a Mormon TH-camr, Shad Brooks of Shadiversity, who wrote a fantasy novel where characters who were acceptable targets of violence lacked "inner light" which is disturbingly close to this.
Thank you very much for all of your research and information. This explains so much and answers so many questions. Watching mormons become so extreme has been very confusing as its against everything I thought I knew about the religion I was born and raised in. All of the unanswered questions, judgemental people, high demand of time and 10%tithe were my reason for not being active as an adult. For that...40 years later... as the truth has been exposed, I am unexpectedly greatful.
Lauren, thank you for the courage to talk about the political point-of-view that seems to unite the people in these prepper-far-right echo chambers.
That Wasatch UT area is so beautiful and seemingly perfect, with their family statues everywhere. You’d never know all of this was going on behind closed doors. 🤦🏻♀️ John made my day with his uncontrolled laughter. 😂
This was great, eye opening. Terrific guests😊
I admire Judge Boyce’s restraint. Listening to her speech, just wow😢😢😮😮 It’s all I, I, I. Calling Tammy her friend, just unconscionable 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ What’s with the “happy and busy” afterlife crap??
I'm going to comment this on a bunch of videos... Please cover the troubled teen industry. It's a heavily Mormon-influenced "therapeutic" industry that takes a lot of these ideas about therapy to the nth degree, except it's blasted at the kids 24/7, in the most extreme circumstances, and the kids know they have to comply (or at least convincingly pretend to comply) or they will continue to be held against their will, without legal justification, without a jury or lawyer or trial, for years in most cases. I've seen girls have to re-enact and take responsibility for sexual abuse they endured in childhood, blaming kids for their depression was a daily occurrence, and none of it is at will, and kids are cut off from all outside influence. You're missing a huge part of the picture if you ignore this industry.
Don't forget that many of those Mormon-based "therapeutic" based establishments try to keep the fact that they're Mormon-based a secret from the general public... wonder why... 🤔🤔
I listened to the first episode and WOWW! First thank you! Secondly, so much if it was weirdly sexual. How do readers and people who love the book not see that??
Lastly, I am Mexican-American and I grew up with so many “fantastical” beliefs from my great grandmother and my culture. Why is it that the stuff that many LatinX and Native people grew up believing is “weird” and “not right”, but this weird portal crap and these creatures who latch on is ok??
I feel like this is a very valid question. I’m trying to make it make sense.
The fantastical beliefs that your Mexican Grandmother believed and shared with you are not weird. When a group of people are oppressed the way native Americans and Mexicans living in the US proper have been and they feel powerless to stop it, it makes sense to me that they would develop metaphors, stories, supernatural events and happenings to make sense of their predicaments and to take back power from their oppressors.
Regarding your observation that your culture’s “Fantastical” stories/beliefs are treated by the average American as “weird” and “not right” is accurate. It is common for groups of people to look at groups of other people who are different, look different, eat differently, have different beliefs and conclude that “those people” are weird. Humans have affinity for groups that are like themselves and an aversion to groups who are different. There is likely an evolutionary reason behind this group or tribal behavior that confers survivability upon the group.