Kenobi's writing and logic was indefensible. The dude literally saw his "brother" killing younglings and then just watched him slaughter an entire village to get to him. He also knows that the Sith would have been weaker if Vader was dead. The writers wrote themselves into a corner by shoehorning a fight (hell a whole show) that wasn't necessary. Thor, you knocked it out of the park as usual.
Indefensible indeed... To paraphrase a meme quote from Buddha (I think?), "Trying to talk sense into stupid is like trying to kill a fly on your arm. You may or may not kill the fly, but either way, you'll just end up hurting yourself."
Joby Harold never saw Revenge of the SIth, and frankly you gotta wonder what other major gaps in his knowledge he had when he re-wrote the Obi-Wan show scripts...
When a Kenobi show first got announced, I thought it was maul that was gonna be the main antagonist. That would've been a decent idea considering how much u can write about obi wan that doesn't ruin canon. But here we are, disney operating off 2 braincells again...
There could have been a fight between them that didn't require plot armor & logic gaps to drag it over the finish line. Elements of the fight were good. Most of it was bad. Just poorly conceived & written, yet given the green light by Lucasfilm.
It's extremely frustrating to see that in DisCan it's a battle between incompetent villains and idiotic heroes where the only reason one defeats the other is through their stupidity rather than any virtues or earned triumphs from themselves. It's like watching two mentally challenged children slapping each other.
They either don’t, won’t or can’t write anything else to explain why the Disney sequel’s timeline is in such a shitty era filled with shitty people and people who shouldn’t be shitty. They implement the exact same pattern of incompetence and idiocy in novels and comics to poorly or lazily explain things like why Rogue One was able to infiltrate what apparently should be such an important and highly secure facility that for some reason harbors *all* of the Empire’s greatest military secrets, or why the Galactic Civil War only lasted one year instead of a more realistic twenty five and the Battle of Jakku happened, let alone the way it did.
The writers are narcissistic sociopaths, so they relate to the same type of personality and they write their Her-oes as their power fantasy. They would also love to get away with evil behavior the same way their self-inserts do in their crappy fanfics.
That's the problem with modern media and the world at large. Everyone is so interested in moral grays that they forget to establish the zeniths of both good and evil. Without those standards, we succumb to relativism and the mess that brings.
Agreed. The "moral grey" cannot exists without the other two shades. As a matter of fact, I'd say in most stories where the right and wrong answers exist and it's all about learing a lesson, the Grey is supposed to be a minority that highlights both sides; think Goldilocks from Puss in Boots 2 and Han Solo from the Original Star Wars movie, both gave very human movitations that you can kinda relate to but because not character is like them, they stand out even more. We love Morally Gey characters because a lot of us are like that. But the problem is that too many writers these days want to put too much "psycho-realism" into characters that're supposed to be larger than life. There are ways to do it right like ARCANE for instance, where most of the characters have believable motivations. However, even ARCANE had characters who you'd call "definite good" and "definite bad"...
I dunno. Kenobi seemed more like the writers had a very simplistic moral idea and shoehorned it to a situation that was more complicated than they thought. Refusing to kill a helpless being seems good until you consider the helpless being is Darth Vader way before RotJ.
A lot of the Disney + shows struggle with morality. This reminds me of how Sam and Bucky consistently showed more sympathy and kindness to Karli, and actual terrorist, than they ever did to John Walker. Morally complex heroes and villains are great, but you have to support that idea with good writing.
The moral messages I got were: - killing is fine as long as you’re not caught on phone camera - terrorism is understandable if the government is withdrawing your handouts to help others in need - for difficult problems, you can simply demand that others make the tough choices and take the blame when they can’t please everyone
The Flag Smashers were the most heavy handed, obtuse org anyway. That show failed on all cylinders. Dumb heroes, dumb villains and fucking dumb ending. These weren’t complex characters, they were Disney characters
@@mattd5240 I’m trying to figure it out. My working theory is that they grew up privileged, protected from the biggest “bads”, with the biggest “goods” guaranteed by a well-functioning society. Taking those for granted, they can safely ignore them, and focus on more minor goods and bads… so they end up with skewed priorities. What do you think?
I don't think we would be criticizing Sabines choice so much if the show would have had someone (Ahsoka or Ezra) berate/talk down to her for what she did or if she was really affected by it; the guilt of possibly having Thrawn return the galaxy and all the death that would come from that weighing on her conscience. That would make for really interesting drama instead of them just waving it off and just being like "Eh, don't worry about it."
I agree that this is one of the most infuriating things. 0 consequences. It already starts with him asking how the hell she found him, since he knows it is nearly impossible, and she does not want to talk about it and he is fine with that answer? Just no. And yes, both should have told her how bad that decision was. Especially Ezra in my opinion since it was his sacrifice to save the galaxy from Thrawn and she just throws it away.
@theanonymouscritic1710 The decision she made that brings Thrawn back to the galaxy to reignite the war that will put countless lives at risk undoing the sacrifice that Ezra lost 10 years of his life for? Yes I would think they would have some words to say. Obviously, yes, they would eventually reconcile and everything would be OK, but that was a conversation that should have definitely happened because it would have given us some interesting drama.
@@Bradical204 The main thing for me is that it shows the decision was at least questionable. If you look at it (and no, I don't think she was manipulated, she knew what could happen, she knew Thrawn could return given the fact that they needed the map to do exactly that: bring him back, and she didn't have a real plan to do anything about it, at least none I could see) the decision was 100% selfish. It was her wish to see Ezra, going after such a selfish wish is a Sith thing to do. Looking at Ezra as well: he looked rather ok with his situation. He made the decision to sacrifice himself to save the universe from Thrawn, and looking at him in the series he seemed to be rather ok with who he was, where he was and the aftermath of said decision. So yes, I agree he should have something to say about it. Ahsoka as her master should also have some words to say to a decision that is basically an evil one. She might not be a Jedi anymore, but she clearly should be light side and recognize that Sabine is going down a rather questionable road right here.
Another thing for Ahsoka and the map when she had the map she didn’t want to destroy it and wanted to find Ezra, but once the map was lost to the bad guys she wanted to destroy it cause they didn’t have the firepower to win it back
I have to say that this idea that Jedi don't kill... is not said anywhere at least in the movies. People confuse "good guys = don't kill" but that is not a core tenant rule explicitly stated in the Jedi... it's understood compassion above violence but they are not above using it to stop a great threat.
@@disguisedcentennial835 Of course not. I'm just referring to the idea of taking lives. I'm sure the Jedi Council would prefer capture and condemn killing those who surrender. Dead or alive seem to be the options for Sith Lords though.
@@Someguy1357 The whole point of the decapitation of Dooku, a surrendered unarmed enemy, was that it's not acceptable and not the Jedi way. I agree with the overall point, Maul's is a good example, but Dooku isn't.
@@LedPESRule Dooku still is, in that Anakin was made a council member because of that. But it’s because they thought he killed Dooku in combat, not in execution. Still, shows that it’s okay to kill.
I guess we shouldn't be surprised since Disney has been on a mission to rewrite their villains, who thought Cruella DeVille of all characters needed a tragic, sympathetic backstory?
Why can’t some villains just be power-hungry, high-functioning psychopaths? Such people do exist, and it’s not because their mom didn’t hug them enough as a kid
The worst part is how non-sensical her sympathetic backstory was.💀 "I wanna kill puppies and wear their skin because a dog killed ma grandma" (it wasn't her grandma, but still)
With Kenobi it seems like they treated it as a moral victory for Obi-Wan to not become like Vader, but forgot the context. They probably thought RotJ, but forgot about the redemption and Obi-Wan's opinions on Vader. With Sabine it seemed like the writer is fully aware that she's commiting a moral failure, but didn't find the time to explore it later. Also because Filoni, it's likely that the Force adapted in the fly, and made sure Ezra will get home to help thwarting Thrawn, and Ahsoka is dealing with whatever Baylan is up to.
The writers didn't explore shit. We had tons of screen time for characters, and they hardly said anything, and when they did, it was not relevant to anything that made sense.
To be fair, Sabine has a history of making stupid decisions with severe consequences. For example, Mandalore wouldn't have suffered the Night of a Thousand Tears if she took ownership of the Darksaber and never handed it over to Bo-Katan without her earning it in combat. And that's just one instance I can think of off the top of my head. So Sabine surrendering the star map to Baylan is simply continuing that long line of costly mistakes and her inability to take responsibility for her reckless actions. And there will be severe consequences - Thrawn returning to the main galaxy which paves the eventual rise of the First Order - for that simple action.
It´s Dangerhair Sue, Felony´s pet fanfic OC. He will never acknowledge she did something wrong. She is one of these "waaahhhmen can do nothing wrong" pr0pag4nda devices camouflaged as characters, just like Bo-Karen, Guyladriel, Admiral Gender Studies.
You’re a smart guy when it comes to TH-cam, Thor! By giving the viewers a chance to have their comment read in your videos, it incentivizes commenting, which is, no doubt, very beneficial to you and the channel. Surprised more channels haven’t thought of that lol
Absoloutely and let's face it, the sequel trilogy as well as the Disney+ Star Wars TV shows where made by creating a large list of 'diverse' characters first and then bodging them into a story, or at least their idea of what a story is, only to find that they can't come up with a story that supports the large amount of pointless characters they wanted to impose on the fans.
The funny thing is, you just make the whole "Obi-Wan VS Vader" fight a VISION or a NIGHTMARE and it works. Obi-Wan doesn't have blood on his hands and it doesn't break canon (...well the whole show breaks canon but that's another story)
Maybe even a test given by Qui-Gon to help Obi-wan move past his trauma so he can then finish his training. Similar to the test that Yoda gave Luke in Empire. Would have been a much cooler reveal for Qui-Gon as well.
The map was really not needed to find Ezra at all. Ahsoka just used the space whales and got to the other galaxy without it after all. They just needed to find where the whales lived and voilà, the path to Ezra opens up without letting Thrawn free... how in the years spent searching for him (Ezra) they never tried that is beyond me...
The idea is portrayed very poorly, but I believe the idea is that Ashoka wouldn't have been able to connect with the pergil prior to her "epiphany". Still very poorly shown if that's it. What is obvious in comparison is that it was unknown to Ashoka as to whether or not the space whales were going to bring her to Ezra and Thrawn or leave her stuck in some distant galaxy stranded. I find it ridiculously funny that there's no way she would have even known that the planet the whales first encountered was actually Peridia if she hadn't been bombarded by mines and shot by fighters. Technically those things alone didn't even have to be correlated to Thrawn from what she knew. She didn't even know where she was. Only reason she knew she was in the right place was because of her out of the blue force connection with Sabine. That's what's actually dumb. Ashoka stated she was taking a risk jumping in a space whale, it one she wasn't willing to take before the 5th episode.
Hey Thor, I appreciate your work heavily. Sometimes we agree, sometimes not. Either way, great stuff from you and Naboo. Just wanted to say, blows my mind how you in like 2 min gave a 10x more compelling storyline for this series than what we got. I actually legitimately was thinking like damn, this also would’ve caused a lot of Sabine hate to not have come. (Even though most people prolly not gonna come around on the Sabine Jedi thing lol)
Because we have two opposing factions and depictions of Star Wars within Lucasfilm. There’s Filoni and Favreau feeding us easy to consume crack-cocaine. And there’s Tony Gilroy feeding us nutritious slow cooked meals. Sorry, but my standards have risen and I refuse to go back to pathetic action light shows that just appear because the plot said so.
Looks like the majority of audiences refuse to watch Andor as well. Both Andor and Favreau/Filoniverse is trash. You refuse to eat sheep poo, but willing to eat cow poo.
The part about the ISB being too dumb to deduce the Bail/Leia/ObiWan link on top of Vader being too dumb to deduce these things brings you full circle to the problem in Disney Star Wars: the writers do not have an understanding of the lore or source material, in addition to that they do not care about the story Lucas was trying to tell, they care about the story they are trying to tell and that is the crux of the problem. The writers are more interested in telling their story with George Lucas's world and characters than they are with continuing the legacy of his story and honoring it. That is why none of this stuff feels like Star Wars, it feels like a child came into a room with Star Wars character action figures and started smashing them together. "Ohhh I know it doesn't make any sense with the dialog in EP. 4 and it creates massive plot holes and moral dilemmas but wouldn't it be sooooo coool if Vader and Obiwan fought again for no reason other than deceptive marketing?!!?!" The fact they hijacked that show and that story and those characters and their story/history is some of the most gross negligence I've ever seen in any reboot, the people responsible for this should be blacklisted from the industry but everybody in the industry is too buddy buddy and up their own ass to actually call out and criticize the laziness and low level, dumb writing in this show and every other Disney Star Wars disaster.
Sabine being the one finding the "map" definitely would have improved the story a lot. It would show she was still very much obssessed with finding Erza. Could have been a reason for Ahsoka to stop training her (fearing she might fall to the dark side). Could explain why Ahsoka didn't destroy the map in the beginning (she wouldn't have been the one to find it). Could explain the rift between the two in the beginning since maybe Ahsoka could have said that they can't risk finding Erza because they might find Thrawn. So many motivations would be better. (Would require a slight retcon) Could even explain Anakin's lesson to Ahsoka. That she must keep fighting the good fight. Because if she doesn't, evil wins or something. Maybe Ahsoka had stopped being a Jedi and just wanted to live a life of peace and Sabine's mistake forces her to act. At first she was reluctant, after the lesson she would be on board with it all again.
I would’ve liked a line in _Kenobi,_ when Obi-Wan is about to finally strike down Vader, but in that moment Qui-Gon finally speaks to him, and says something to stay his hand and let him live… something like “he is the Chosen One, he will destroy the Sith,” or just “trust the Force,” or something much better than those ideas 🤷🏻♂️
It's not that Jedi don't kill. It's that they don't kill the defenseless. Look to Anakin and Quinlan Voss as examples. Anakin killing a defenseless Dooku all but sealed his fate. Quinlan being tasked to assassinate Dooku Turned him dark almost irreversibly.
I’ve come to realize that the negative aspects that made villains are now being used for heroes, arrogance, pride or selfishness instead of humility, growth and wisdom.
Everyone is looking for “shades of grey” today and don’t wanna hear about good and evil. We must analyze the psychology of evil men and the good guys are just too boring. We have to make them commit questionable acts in order for the audience to pay attention to their stories. The is what happens when you continually consume media that says there is no good and evil, just people and power. No, there is absolutely good and evil and we see it every day. This is just the MO for companies like Disney who introduce moral relativistic principles to younger and younger generations. You know what’s truly interesting? Having morally good characters with strong values being presented with false choices, and morally dubious circumstances but finding their way to what is right and holding on to their values despite the world around them trying to influence them into shades of grey. But that doesn’t fit the goals and ideals of companies like Disney today. They’d rather make fun of upright and righteous men like Steve Rogers and Luke Skywalker. By making fun of them being sexually pure, or old school. This is how we get troubled writing like in Kenobi and Sabine’s choice. I don’t see why she needed to hand over the map and couldn’t lose a fight and get captured. Why make her make this morally dubious choice and not follow up the consequences? Disney doesn’t understand the psychology of good characters & WHY they shouldn’t make these choices! It’s literally because good guys have strong values. They understand consequences. Consequences that have negative impacts on greater numbers of people rather than themselves. Selflessness vs selfishness. These characters are good because they literally pick up their cross(in a Christian sense) and die to themselves continually. That doesn’t fit the follow your heart mantra of Disney today.
As a matter of fact, isn't the quote "there is no good or evil, only power and thise who seek to wield it" a villain quote? I'm pretty sure Voldemort said it...
@@ellugerdelacruz2555yup! It follows our moral relativistic society today. Where there isn’t good or evil but whoever has power decides it. Or more power than the majority. The choices of the good guys are hollow because good and evil are no longer defined around them.
@@Shawn-363 What's your opinion about Rogue One, Andor, Star Wars: Rebels, Jedi: Fallen Order, and Jedi: Survivor? I think that movie, shows, and video games have a better portrayal of good v.s. evil than Kenobi and the sequel trilogy. Also, you seem to have a shallow understanding of heroes and villains. You seem to be implying that heroes should have no moral flaws and that villains should just be stereotypically evil with no backstory. You also seem to be implying that villains should have no redemption. No hero is perfect. The mark of a great hero is their flaw. Villains on the other hand should have a backstory. People don't become evil overnight. Portraying a hero as 100% good with no moral flaws and a villain with no backstory about why they're so evil is completely unrealistic. What Star Wars needs is good and competent writers who actually understand how to write proper heroes and proper villains.
Hey Thor, how well do you think this could have worked for the Kenobi show: In the Kenobi and Vader “rematch of the century”, after Vader says that Anakin is gone, Kenobi kills Vader. Let that sink in. We as the audience would be watching it the whole time saying “but we know how this has to end” and then BOOM it suddenly become obvious that this was never meant to keep cannon. Then he returns to Tatooine just in time to save Luke, but Reva had already killed the Lars. This would launch as alternative history universe where Kenobi is training a young Luke as they come out of hiding to defeat the Emperor. That would have subverted the expectation but is a way that totally makes sense. Killing Vader would have solidified that show as stuff of legend and film classes would be praising it for decades. Everyone would be talking about the ending instead of about how dumb it was to have Leia hide under the trench coat.
@@adrianchatman5734 I'm sure it's out there in the wild somewhere. It's been awhile since I've browsed SW stuff but from what I remember time travel and alternative universes are fairly common. Just gotta get through the trash and mediocre stuff to find it!
Hey Thor! This topic fits into a larger discussion about how Disney has been handling villains across its franchises. In Marvel, many of the villains lately have had intentions that are not necessarily evil and often are "relatable" to the audience and makes the audience feel sorry for the villain. Losing children and loved ones (real and imaginary), feeling unjustly persecuted, wanting to return to home (even if that home wasn't yours to begin with), protecting your home and property - these are all emotions the audience connects with and Marvel/Disney has been portraying these villains as "right reasons, wrong methods." We've had very few villains who are truly villainous with evil intentions. And then there are the Disney live-action remakes that have reduced the threat of their villains. Primary example of this is Ursula in The Little Mermaid, who had lyrics in her "villain" song changed to make her less evil for fear of... the audience taking her advice to heart? I still don't understand that one, one of the points of the hero defeating the villain is to show that the hero's values are greater than that of the villain and thus the audience should use the hero as an example to follow in life, not the villain. And finally, in Star Wars it is very much blurred on whether the heroes are the heroes or villains of the story and not for the intention of creating morally complex heroes. Instead, it makes the heroes seem ignorant and dumb, which is attributed to bad writing, not complex writing that is involved in writing complex characters. I would love to hear your thoughts! Also, I have commented multiple times what direction I think the Ahsoka show should have taken. If you easily cannot find those comments, I am willing to take the time to find them and copy-paste them below! Love your videos and your balanced approach to Star Wars and story telling!
Instead of just straight up walking away from Darth Vader, what are other things that could've made more sense if Obi-Wan had no other choice but to leave?
Acknowledge he acts out of convenience instead of portraying it as a moral victory. Or better yet, don't create that situation, but have Obi-Wan achieve that moral victory by simply standing up to Vader and getting away with it.
Almost anything would have made more sense. My personal thought is that a squad of stormtroopers should have come blasting in, driving away Obi-Wan and evacuating Vader for treatment. No starship captain would ever want to be the man to face the Emperor and explain how he let Vader die, and Palpatine would clearly not accept "just following orders" as an excuse. So send another shuttle with a full squad or two to follow behind and step in if things went sideways.
Easy , when Obi-Wan is about to jump and strike him down for good he feels the inquisitors coming down where Vader is. (Let's say that inside the main ship the machine can tell Vader suit is failing so they go down to assist him ,GI orders). At the same time you can add Luke being in danger and Kenobi feeling it. This situation is great I'll say .
Easy, you just have a big earthquake rift suddenly show up right between them as the planet has a giant weapon installation that was hit by a few bombs. and then Chewy swoops in to pick up Obi-Wan. ta-da!
Hey Thor. Recent reports have shed light on the issues at the Mouse-House. Some of the biggest are that there have been no writer rooms, no true showrunning. The studio has been meddling or outright "running" series by throwing stuff at the wall and then "we'll fix it in post" as the solution. (Secret Invasion is the prime example of this.) The most recent and glaring reports center on Daredevil. One of the BEST series ever made (not just a superhero show) got "she-hulked"...and now the entire directing/writing AND completed (reportedly 4) episodes of their new DD series just got tossed in the trashcan for being a 'courtroom drama' where Matt Murdock doesn't even don his costume until the 4th episode. 😀 As these shenanigans come to light, is it any wonder that 90% of these series are less than stellar? (Exception for obvious reasons being Andor.)
I honestly think that Disney and Lucasfilm just don't think about the implications of events and actions. A match up between Obi-Wan and Vader was cool! Everyone wants to see it! I think that's literally the depth of their thinking.
found it hilarious that Ezra is supposed to be so important for her to find but when she finally does she acts like its just a co worker wtf disney cant write normal human interactions its so weird
They’re desperate to keep things sexless. Hera had a kid with Kanan, but were they ever shown even kissing in Rebels? If it weren’t for that brief scene with Bix and Timm-with-two-m’s in Andor, you’d assume that everyone in the Star Wars galaxy reproduced by budding.
The first time when he fought Vader, there was a good reason why he left him alive: he thought he was gonna die. He was limbless, and on fire, and he had to make sure Padme was ok while dealing with the weight of everything going on.
“I mean the best parts about Star Wars is there is no good or evil. It depends on what side you are standing on, truly.” - Charlie Barnett, star of The Acolyte.
Ahsoka leaving the map with Sabine was not a great plan. Her not destroying it initially does make sense as she thought the threat from the Imperials forces was minimal at that point. I'm fully on board with a title change for this show. Call it Master & Apprentice and give us even more time with Baylan and Shin.
Kenobis final fight could’ve been far better if they fought on that planet, and then a bit into the fight they go into some sort of crystal cave to 1: give some really cool visuals instead of the crappy rock and darkness, and 2: Vader could’ve fallen into some sort of cavern in order to end the fight without kenobi just walking away
also, a character making a bad choice can still be good characterization, like for Sabine i think it is a choice that makes sense for her character. but you would think obi Wan would have learned his lesson by now, making it a bad choice and not really in character
None of this makes the heros bad. It just makes them very very dumb, which is the core problem of disney era star wars. It feels like everything is written plot first and then the characters are squished into that plot instead of letting character motivations drive plot. That's not to say plot first can't work, but the amount of effort that has gone in to making characters fit in their plot is pitiful.
It is not just Disney, its everyone.... The elves in lord of the rings are evil now... and the federation in star trek are fascists.. I think its all the postmodern graduate writers.. we just need them do retire out and then maybe the next generation of Hollywood writers can go back to telling good stories, instead of deconstructing old ones...
Both were horrendous. The only thing that makes Kenobi worse is that it tore apart canon. Ahsoka and Sabine's mistakes don't have the same stakes and implications and obviously serve to make Thrawn a villain in another project. Them making the Kenobi atrocity is made worse by the knowledge of everything that happens before and after.
The more you think about these shows, the more they fall apart. Thats probably why they keep trying to get our attentions to other shows the moment one is done
Sorry to say that it's just a short while after the series concluded and I've already forgotten about it. There's nothing memorable or tangible to take away and think about. It's as simple as that. I'm afraid it's destined for the same fate as so many of the Disney Star Wars iterations.
You make great points the problem is it was a self-contained story in the original trilogy. The more TV shows, and the more movies they make the more logical errors the more they destroy the integrity of what was constructed and create all these problems with the plot and the story and incidences that now no longer makes sense
Hey Thor, you mentioned in this video about how Ahsoka probably would have been better if it had been named something generic and focused on Sabine as a main character. I noticed a similarity with what you've said in the past about Andor being called "Star Wars: The Dark Times" or something. What do you think has caused Lucasfilm's seeming obsession with naming shows and movies after characters? (Solo, Andor, Kenobi, Ahsoka, etc...) Do you think it's just Marvel's success prior to phase four or do you think there's something else to it as well? Curious to hear your thoughts.
When you cannot write competence, you are unable to write justifications for your characters' actions. This is where Disney _always_ falls short nowadays.
On one hand it comes down to this: when you think someone needs to die, don't depend on circumstances, just kill them. On the other hand, there's the case of mercy, very strongly shown in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in the mercy given to Gollum. It led in the future to having Gollum take the Ring from Frodo when Frodo failed and then Gollum fell into the volcano, destroying the Ring when Frodo couldn't. What can the mercy shown to Vader produce in the future? Vader kills Palpatine when Luke couldn't. I've also thought of a wild idea. What if in the Return of the Jedi, Vader didn't die. Luke had him removed from his armour and put into a medical facility in secret. An empty suit of armour was cremated. Maybe in the future, a healed and more balanced Anakin, Darth Vader, master of both the Light Side and the Dark Side, could work to redeem himself by aiding the New Republic with his skills in combat and command.
I don’t understand why Disney hasn’t learned by now. Maybe the pressure to churn out content is part of the problem. That’s why so many shows feel like 1st or 2nd drafts, not the final product.
The part about that is so frustrating is that all it would’ve taken seeing the problem and offering a viable justification. Obi, wan senses that Luke is at risk. Nose that his primary duty is on the line. That’s it I’m pausing and going Luke as he touches his head and running off fixes that problem. It’s not perfect. One of the reasons they’re protecting the children is so that they can act against Peter in the future so if you can end Vader, but still the responsibility of protecting the child in that moment would definitely add to the weight of the moment.
I'm in agreement there. Disney really doesn't get it. Gone down some bland nonsense where everyone is good and everyone is evil. Everything is just gray. You can have heroes, villains, good, and evil. It's not a crime for fiction to create those lines in the sand and have fun with the setting. I don't Disney will figure that out, but it just shows why so many of their shows and movies have been failing. Not the whole reason, but one more of those reasons.
Hey Thor, I have a different take on the climactic events in Kenobi. I'm curious as to what you think of this. What I understood from Kenobi was that when Obi Wan charged Vader after disrupting his suit's life support, he went for the kill by slicing at his head. However, he failed to land the killing blow, and instead only sliced the helmet, if not also a part of Vader's scalp. Vader used this to his advantage after having narrowly escaped death to psychologically manipulate Kenobi into having pity for him, bringing to light Kenobi's regret, sadness, and self-deprecation. Emotions that Vader would absolutely sense and relate to, thus establishing a wicked familiarity to then manipulate Kenobi into backing off. They have the emotional interaction with one another, and Kenobi, realizing what Vader claims himself to be and accepting it, backs off because he can sense Vader's growing anger and determination to kill him, even if it means they both die. Kenobi, having received grace by a vision of Luke and Leia from the Force earlier that allowed him to muster the confidence and strength to lift the boulders off of him, knows that should he die here, the two children's lives would be in jeopardy. This would have been his same logic as to why he was determined to kill Vader, as in should he allow Vader to live, their lives and the lives of countless others will be in jeopardy. What changed was that he failed to kill Vader, and lost the advantage of surprise as well as his newfound strength in the Force due to exhaustion (b/c of course he hasn't acclimated to the Force enough yet to be as strong as he used to be a decade ago). As such, if he were to continue the fight with an enraged and focused Vader right there and then, he risks losing his own life more than he did before. Therefore, the prudent option was to surrender the fight and retreat. Now, I want to clarify that this may not be what they were trying to convey, but it is how I interpreted the scene. However, if this was indeed what they were trying to convey, I do believe they failed miserably in being precise. I only came to this full conclusion after the fact trying to make sense of the scene. The most egregious issue here is that if it's true Vader was invigorated enough to take Kenobi on in a weakened state regardless of his own life, then why did he allow Kenobi to walk away? He could've easily force choked him and prevented him from retreating. Now, one can say "Force defenses," as of course there have been plenty of opportunities for villains in the past to have simply force choked or shocked any Jedi they challenged with a lightsaber duel but didn't. Ok, taking that into account, the scene I think justifies itself in principle. But, it fails to visually communicate those principles well. As such, I think it would have been much better if the scene played out normally, up until Vader finishes saying "And now I will destroy you," or something along those lines. Before Kenobi could even have the chance to speak and accept what has changed in Anakin, Vader Force chokes him by capitalizing on Kenobi's emotional weakness. Kenobi, now in a state of peril, uses what fortitude and focus he has left to Force crush Vader's suit, or even bring down an entire rock pillar on top of Vader preventing Vader from continuing killing him and hopefully kill Vader instead. Kenobi is released, and due to a lack of oxygen and their injuries, both lose consciousness and collapse onto the ground. Kenobi wakes up later and sees Vader still unconscious on the ground, believes he is dead, and then says what he has learned to accept. He then leaves as he looks up and sees Imperial vessels coming down to secure the area and retrieve Vader after a suspicious passage of silence from his comm link. This would clearly show Kenobi's intentions in killing Vader, but failed to do so, clarifying the moral dilemma. or if the scene was actually conveying what I interpreted, the moral confusion many including yourself continue to grapple with.
Tight, logical plots have never been a high priority for modern Disney. Also the lives of modern Disney characters are worth far more than the great unwashed. Entertainment is a product of culture and we all know how effed up Disney's culture is. Being somewhat sane and moral, working at Disney these days would be one of the planes of hell for me.
Not even close. Kenobi is way worse. I appreciate you taking your time to answer all posts as to why the Kenobi show is as bad as it is and I’ve shared your videos among my friends. Many don’t agree with your takes but you have made some great points that I just can’t ignore.
Goodness a lot of these video starting comments are familiar. I din't know how many you usually get but i'm surprised how many I took the time to dwell on before hand. I'll say what I said there I Guess: _Not to defend how they handled sabines terrible decision and what she does after, but at least you get a sense of why she did it. Like the train of thought is explainable. With obiwan he blatantly admits his belief that Anakin is gone and only darth vader remains, has the opportunity to kill him, but then doesn't and never elaborates why._
Come to think of it, Kenobi lets Vader live at least three times now. In Revenge of the Sith he had his best chance. He also doesn't even bother fighting him in A New Hope, hew just toys with him and then sacrifices himself to let Luke escape. Then in the Kenobi series he just continually runs away. Obviously the real world reason for this is it was already set that Vader would die in Episode VI. Which gives him the same problem as Dooku and Grievous. Every time you use them, you have to come up with some reason they or their opponent runs. Which is why you should not just keep using these kinds of villains. Use other villains whose fate can be decided in the story you are telling at the time.
Hey Thor, instead of these mammoth sized disasters of overproduced hubris, should Disney focus on their animated shows and maybe some lower budget live action stuff that leaves the Jedi behind. I’m not talking Caravan of Courage here but Andor is the high point of the last few years and it had no Jedi or Sith. It seems these high profile shows are falling flat and maybe some lower stakes and lowered expectations could help get things on track. And a lower budget could give some creative freedom for show runners to tell Star Wars stories that are less galaxy spanning. Like Cheers but at an imperial bar on the Death Star or something. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
@@Mouse_Metal Oh man, i don't remember what it is called, but it basically edits out half the show. Reva dies when Vader stabs her. I'll try to find it. Found it on youtube, if you search Obi-Wan Kenobi fan edit you might find it. Edit: I think it's called The Patterson cut
You have to give Thor props for trying to make sense out of nonsense. Thrawn didn’t exactly have to die but he could have been arrested for warcrimes while serving the Empire and after the Emperor was killed. To give him the map, however, was a shit move. It would have been a stronger move to decide she doesn’t need Thrawn to find Ezra. As for Kenobi, that show shouldn’t have even happened if they were gonna just make it one massive canon breaker, between the Inquisitor Hunts, an unnecessary onscreen explanation for how Leia would recognize the name ‘Ben Kenobi’ (because audience members can’t use their imagination, apparently), and Darth Vader not only needlessly being on Tatooine but also having another duel with a shallow Obi-Wan before their inevitable fight on the Death Star. There is literally no direction or care under Disney. Anybody who did care about Star Wars who *wasn’t* fired for it like Dave Filoni are being corrupted by Disney. There’s no heart and fans have seen so much crap content with the Star Wars brand slapped onto it that we’ve been accepting the minimum, something we never did prior. Only now do we accept minimum content because we’re desperate for true Star Wars again. If true Star Wars was really what they cared to create, they wouldn’t do petty things like try to make what they now call ‘Legends’ instead of ‘EU’ lost media.
Ashoka not only didn't destroy the map for the greater good when she had the chance she also failed to protect the map because she should of went after Sabine immediately after she took off with the map but didn't. So Ashoka failed twice in the first episode alone which doesn't make her look very smart. When it comes to Sabine what she did was treasonous straight up because she did all of it on her own from stealing the map even after being told the danger of doing so to handing over the map of her own free will so what she did is even worse in my opinion then Obi Wan even what he did was bad to.
I respect Thor more Star Wars Theory because A) He does not say outlandish things B)Does not show their face and C) Well he is respectful and can keep an open mind.
the most laughable thing in this show was that Sabine was the only one in the galaxy capable of solving a glorified rubix cube - or sphere in this case
And defense is violence as well,it’s a war Kenobi should have killed Vader in both occasions. Still i think Sabine is worse than Kenobi because I’m sure Kenobi must have thought that Vader wouldn’t survive near the lava shore in ep.3. Sabine just wanted to selfishly see Ezra again and Ahsoka well idk. I hope Disney stops making the viability of the villains a thing due to our heroes’ selfishness.
You make good points from a linear point of view. But Like Gollum, in the Lord of the rings, Gandolf, Bilbo and Frodo, all lead call him, live out of pity, knowing how evil and wretched he was, and he was the one that destroyed the ring in the end. My take on this is Sabin what is guided by the force to bring the three Jedi to the distant galaxy to tackle a bigger evil, then Thrawn.
The argument that Kenobi wouldn't kill Vader because "Jedi don't kill" flies in the face of elementary logic as well as what we have seen. Letting Vader live effectively killed countless other sentient beings. Just another example of the poor writing that plagued that show right from the start. As far as Sabine vs Ahsoka goes, Sabine actually turned over the map to Baylan at a moment in time when it would lead directly to the Eye of Sion leaving for Peridea within minutes. That wasn't the situation Ahsoka was in and in my view makes what Sabine did far worse.
It was so easy to have Kenobi walk over to kill Anakin and have 2 tie fighters shoot at him and not letting him kill vader. It wouldn't be a thing today and obi wan wouldn't be questioned why did he let him alive. 🙄
It's not that they don't know the difference between heroes and villains. It's they want to showcase a heroic character doing an irresponsible action and not getting punished. It's all part the narrative. They need it so that any irresponsible action they do to star wars franchise, they hoped that fans don't punished them too much.
They are literally teaching kids to be arrogant, selfish brats. but only if they are girls. Only her-oes can act like villains and get away with it. It is f-ing pr0pag4nda and it destroys the society from the inside.
Well I don't see Kenobi as canon, I still see it as Vader when he says " I sense someting, a presence I haven't felt since..." He is refering to Mustafar. When it comes to Sabine I don't think she can do no wrong. I mean she wouldn't have become a Jedi master if she hadn't got to the other galaxy. So now she will save everyone and become a Skywalker too
It just comes down to bad writing in Kenobi and Ahsoka. Obi Wan couldn't kill Vader because obviously we need him in ANH. Sabine didn't destroy the map because the plot demanded they make it to the next galaxy. This could've worked better if we saw these characters really struggle emotionally with these decisions, but in neither case did we really get that. They could've benefited from the failure -> reflection -> redemption cycle. Instead, what happened, happened, and everyone just moved on. More fruitful ground is in stories that deal with moral gray areas, or characters being forced to make decisions where all the options are bad. It feels like Rogue One and Andor handled that a lot better. Is Cassian a villain for killing that other rebel spy early in R1, or was it the best among terrible options? It's easy to root for Dedra Meero early on as she battles the sexism and petty infighting of the ISB, until we see she's just as bad as the worst imperials when she starts torturing people.
That isn’t bad writing in Kenobi. It’s a sign the show was I’ll conceived to start with as many people said when they announced they were going to wreck canon in the initial announcement for the show.
The Kenobi show should have been more like how Book of Boba after was with a lot of self reflection and flashbacks to his past, dealing with the feelings of being responsible of Anakin’s turn to the dark side,while showing him watching over Luke, making attempts with Owen to try and get permission to train him, and working towards establishing contact with Qui Gin’s force ghost. And you could cut to Vader’s point of view as he tries to hunt for Kenobi maybe coming close to finding him and Luke but just narrowly avoiding them. Then Book of Boba Fett should have been a cross galaxy adventure with Fett being a bounty hunter.
Hey Thor, even better idea! Ditch Sabine and Ezra, focus on Ahsoka and Baylin and take it from there. An Ahsoka series about Ahsoka, that would have been great!
In regards to 02:45 killing is not the Jedi way. I'll quote Vergere. "...a contradiction like those Jedi who wield it. Those peaceful warriors who kill in the service of life."
That lighstsaber fight just needed to end with Vader burying Obi-Wan under the rocks. Vader walks away arrogantly believing he's got his revenge and Kenobi is dead, kinda mirroring Obi-Wan in ROTS, and after struggling to go on holding up the rocks Obi-Wan remembers his promise to Yoda in ROTS, "I will take the boy and watch over him," and finds the strength in purpose to escape, but now Vader is gone. It is a short term defeat for Obi-Wan, but a long term victory, since he has already accomplished his goal of distracting Vader to save Leia, and his character arc is complete with him being reinvigorated and committed to his duty again. This also explains why Vader didn't ever look for him again and was so surprized when he felt Obi-Wan's presence on the Death Star in ANH. The level of complexity, significance, and logic is instantly 10x by ending it this way.
The trouble with Sabine's choice is that it is directly in contrast with the choice of Ezra, who sacrificed himself to save his friends, free Lothal and remove Thrawn as a threat. Sabine undoes all of that for the sake of her friendship. And then, despite some minor set up from the show, the morality and implications in terms of their relationship are completely unexplored. It could have made for a fascinating character arc if her actions had lead to the breaking of their friendship, or even to Ezra's death, resulting in Sabine having to come to terms with the consequences of her actions, and an opportunity for genuine character growth by her finding the resolve to set things right. What it boils down to, in both Ahsoka and Kenobi, is a lack of care, imagination and courage on the part of the writers.
There was a lot of potential for conflict between our heroes that was totally wasted. Ezra should have been very upset with Sabine, absolute friendship breaking decision. In addition Ezra has been so isolated from people like himself, he should not be psychologically intact. Ezra always struggled with the dark side in rebels. And with no support system so far away... realistically I think he should have been as insane as Darth Maul was when he was found on the junk planet. You save Ezra, but is Ezra still a good guy? Also side note about unexplored conflict between heroes, in the Clone Wars show Ahsoka has killed a Lot of mandolorians, it's weird how this is never brought up and never an issue with Sabine. The Jedi and Mandolorians aren't just historical rivals, Ahsoka led a ground war against Mandolors capital. Pretty weird that is totally glossed over.
@@AmazingMrMe123, exactly. What they gave us is just so boring and empty. Hell, even the awkward reunion could have been about both of them hiding guilt or misgivings. But no, it's just that nobody at Disney can write human emotions, so they'll hide behind the idea that awkward is endearing. When viewers are suggesting more compelling character arcs and plot points, it makes you wonder why on earth the writers were chosen, and why nobody at any point seems to raise any objection or criticism about the script.
@@matttrevers2552 it's just gutless writing. Come to think about it Ezra, Sabine, and Ahsoka were all child soldiers. Yet none of them show any real signs of trauma. Ahsoka's lack of noticeable trauma as an adult is the biggest thing I feel is missing from her portrayals as an adult.
@@AmazingMrMe123 Your ideas are far better than Pissney´s version. And speaking about the Mandos not having a problem with Ahwoka, Felony is such a hack they didn´t have a problem with Bo-Karen, the 2nd in command of Death Watch - the terr0rist group which existed only to kill dutchess Satine and turn Mandalore into a warmongering society again - ruling over the planet after all of the atrocities she has commited. There is also no implication Maul treated the Mandos badly after becoming the ruler. When Boo arrived with the Republic forces she brough war on the planet which was existing just fine without her. The intervention was also illegal because Mandalore was an independent planet. They literally took down one warlord to replace him with even worse warlady.
What i dont' 'understand is why Thrawn is a threat without the Empire. If they follow the new Thrawn books as canon for the character he's only with the Empire for potential allies for his people against a bigger danger. It was the old Legends books where he kept fighting, and that Thrawn had different motives and by Disney's own making is no longer canon The empire is gone. That means the potential ally is gone Why wouldn't he just GO HOME? why would he stick around starting a new war?
*Thor, C'mon Bro...* 🤨 *"Trying to make sense of what makes no sense can render you senseless. Let it go."* - Sanjo Jendayi 🧐 Unfortunately that is what Star Wars has become, trying to make sense of the senseless. 🤯 *"NUFF SAID"™️*
Hey Thor: Could be that it be that Ahsoka did not destroy the map because she did know that Thrawn was in another galaxy until after the map was stolen, and therefore thought that simply destroying the map was not enough to stop Thrawn’s return. The people looking for him would still have a chance of finding him if he was still in the same galaxy, so maybe if that was the case it may safer to hunt down and capture kill Thrawn then to let him be and possibly find away back or be found by some other means. I like to hear your thoughts on this
I think film makers of a particular mindset have become adverse to consequences. But if there are no consequences to be responsible for then there are no hard decisions to be made and it doesn’t matter what the hero does. It comes from a place where the writer has a very narcissistic world view.
At least to my memory, no where does it say “killing is not the Jedi way”. REVENGE is not the Jedi way, and that can imply cold blooded murder. But killing in general is not forbidden because the Jedi understood that a life might be taken in the pursuit of protecting someone or if it’s for the greater good. Killing isn’t a Jedi’s initial intention when fighting someone but they are well aware that killing your opponent is a highly potential outcome, again for the reasons I said above. And again, no where does it establish that a Jedi killing in general is forbidden.
Its sad that this is where we are at... Theres now more hrs of Star Wars content on the Disney end than on the Lucas end Clone Wars included... Water is just too muddled at this point. I really think Star Wars has just taken a nose dive and its over. I dont see how you crawl out of the hole they've dug... Its so bad, it feels like poison admitting but how could they ever repair all the damage they've done.
Also... Stormtrooper blasters have a stunning mode and Obi Wan could easily have taken the blaster from the first Trooper and then save (or not kill) a ton of lives. He is very good with a blaster, as established when defeating Grievous and don't other occasions.
I love the video and your insights Thor! However, I’m not sure if I entirely agree about the argument against what Ahsoka did by not destroying the map. She too, like Sabine, promised Ezra that she would find him. So, I think that it makes sense that she and Sabine would both be eager to find him and would be very hesitant about destroying the only known link to his possible location. I think where the problem lies is that the show didn’t do a good job of showing Ahsoka’s connection to Ezra and WHY she too wouldn’t destroy the map. I interpreted it as she originally wanted to fulfill her promise to Ezra and was willing to try to find him even though she knew it was risky until the map got stolen by Shin. That caused Ahsoka to realize how reckless she was and come to the realization that she should destroy it and asked Sabine if she could trust her to do the same. Again, personally I think it makes sense for her not to destroy it but I think that should’ve been explored much deeper in the series. That’s just my take but maybe I missed something and perhaps there is a good reason as to why many people are saying Ahsoka’s decision was foolish :)
The only explanation that makes sense is that they're writing these shows under extreme time pressure. There's no one to say "Hey, wait a minute, if that happens there's no story."
All these retcons because of Obi-Wan... what was the point of old Ben Kenobi dueling Vader one more time to let himself be killed to become a Force Ghost, why did it have to be Vader that killed him instead of just dying on his own? Nothing makes sense anymore
Instead of the dumb McGuffin that is is the map, why not just make it that the Imperials are studying all they could with the whales and making a means to traverse the pathway? Instead of handing over the map, or having a map at all, why not have the imperials ask Sabine to help using her engineering prowess with the promise of seeing Ezra and their protection? Could be offered by Hoti early on instead of having her get stabbed so dumbly. Or maybe the separate her and Ahsoka early on and ask her then. You can have where Sabine helps and tries to make fail safe, but when they get to their destination, Thrawn makes sure to inspect it thoroughly to ensure she didn't do such. Relying on dumb plot devices that can be easily replaced for more relevant use of characters skills, knowledge, and ingenuity is just lazy...
“Well, he was trying to kill them. But his saber bounced off their armor.” I am just thinking “Jesus Christ!🤦🏻♂️” You are talking about a different aspect of how nonsense this stuff is. But just showing all the other stupid things they have done to this brand.
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The fact that numerous people at Lucasfilm read the script for Kenobi and still went ahead with it baffles me.
that is the feeling I have got from a lot of D+ shows recently. Mando Season 3, She-Hulk, Kenobi, Book of Boba Fett, Secret Invasion etc.
@@joshuacompton2500Hey remember these writers deserve more money for their hard work though 😂
Either they’re idiots & think these are good ideas, or they think the audience are idiots & will clap for things we recognize. Maybe both.
@@KaneMeadowsGaming, maybe they're churning out shit scripts as a protest?
They don’t care about the quality as long as they can get something out in time
Kenobi's writing and logic was indefensible. The dude literally saw his "brother" killing younglings and then just watched him slaughter an entire village to get to him. He also knows that the Sith would have been weaker if Vader was dead. The writers wrote themselves into a corner by shoehorning a fight (hell a whole show) that wasn't necessary. Thor, you knocked it out of the park as usual.
Indefensible indeed...
To paraphrase a meme quote from Buddha (I think?),
"Trying to talk sense into stupid is like trying to kill a fly on your arm. You may or may not kill the fly, but either way, you'll just end up hurting yourself."
Joby Harold never saw Revenge of the SIth, and frankly you gotta wonder what other major gaps in his knowledge he had when he re-wrote the Obi-Wan show scripts...
When a Kenobi show first got announced, I thought it was maul that was gonna be the main antagonist.
That would've been a decent idea considering how much u can write about obi wan that doesn't ruin canon.
But here we are, disney operating off 2 braincells again...
There could have been a fight between them that didn't require plot armor & logic gaps to drag it over the finish line. Elements of the fight were good. Most of it was bad. Just poorly conceived & written, yet given the green light by Lucasfilm.
It's all masonic dualism. It's all over Hollywood films. Even the 'heroes" have significant evil. They're programming you.
It's extremely frustrating to see that in DisCan it's a battle between incompetent villains and idiotic heroes where the only reason one defeats the other is through their stupidity rather than any virtues or earned triumphs from themselves. It's like watching two mentally challenged children slapping each other.
that's called bad writing and bad directing.
They either don’t, won’t or can’t write anything else to explain why the Disney sequel’s timeline is in such a shitty era filled with shitty people and people who shouldn’t be shitty. They implement the exact same pattern of incompetence and idiocy in novels and comics to poorly or lazily explain things like why Rogue One was able to infiltrate what apparently should be such an important and highly secure facility that for some reason harbors *all* of the Empire’s greatest military secrets, or why the Galactic Civil War only lasted one year instead of a more realistic twenty five and the Battle of Jakku happened, let alone the way it did.
"Disney Star Wars, a Villain's Journey in a Universe of Stooges"
Disney has been in the trend recently of Villains being the "relatable cool people" and Heros "being close-minded jerks".
That’s why the villains are usually awesome and the heroes no one likes
Ah, the good old trope of anti-hero vs. narcissist.
The writers are narcissistic sociopaths, so they relate to the same type of personality and they write their Her-oes as their power fantasy. They would also love to get away with evil behavior the same way their self-inserts do in their crappy fanfics.
That's the problem with modern media and the world at large. Everyone is so interested in moral grays that they forget to establish the zeniths of both good and evil. Without those standards, we succumb to relativism and the mess that brings.
You just dragged the thoughts right out of my head
Andor gets moral grays just fine. This is a director/writer problem
Agreed.
The "moral grey" cannot exists without the other two shades. As a matter of fact, I'd say in most stories where the right and wrong answers exist and it's all about learing a lesson, the Grey is supposed to be a minority that highlights both sides; think Goldilocks from Puss in Boots 2 and Han Solo from the Original Star Wars movie, both gave very human movitations that you can kinda relate to but because not character is like them, they stand out even more.
We love Morally Gey characters because a lot of us are like that. But the problem is that too many writers these days want to put too much "psycho-realism" into characters that're supposed to be larger than life. There are ways to do it right like ARCANE for instance, where most of the characters have believable motivations. However, even ARCANE had characters who you'd call "definite good" and "definite bad"...
Does that mean you believe there are objective, inherent good and evil? If so, make a strong case for it. Nothing subjective, only facts and evidence.
I dunno. Kenobi seemed more like the writers had a very simplistic moral idea and shoehorned it to a situation that was more complicated than they thought. Refusing to kill a helpless being seems good until you consider the helpless being is Darth Vader way before RotJ.
A lot of the Disney + shows struggle with morality. This reminds me of how Sam and Bucky consistently showed more sympathy and kindness to Karli, and actual terrorist, than they ever did to John Walker.
Morally complex heroes and villains are great, but you have to support that idea with good writing.
the writing and the pacing killed the show for me.
The moral messages I got were:
- killing is fine as long as you’re not caught on phone camera
- terrorism is understandable if the government is withdrawing your handouts to help others in need
- for difficult problems, you can simply demand that others make the tough choices and take the blame when they can’t please everyone
The Flag Smashers were the most heavy handed, obtuse org anyway. That show failed on all cylinders. Dumb heroes, dumb villains and fucking dumb ending. These weren’t complex characters, they were Disney characters
That's probably because the writers don't have a sense of morality, they don't know the difference between good or bad.
@@mattd5240 I’m trying to figure it out. My working theory is that they grew up privileged, protected from the biggest “bads”, with the biggest “goods” guaranteed by a well-functioning society. Taking those for granted, they can safely ignore them, and focus on more minor goods and bads… so they end up with skewed priorities. What do you think?
I don't think we would be criticizing Sabines choice so much if the show would have had someone (Ahsoka or Ezra) berate/talk down to her for what she did or if she was really affected by it; the guilt of possibly having Thrawn return the galaxy and all the death that would come from that weighing on her conscience. That would make for really interesting drama instead of them just waving it off and just being like "Eh, don't worry about it."
I agree that this is one of the most infuriating things. 0 consequences.
It already starts with him asking how the hell she found him, since he knows it is nearly impossible, and she does not want to talk about it and he is fine with that answer? Just no.
And yes, both should have told her how bad that decision was. Especially Ezra in my opinion since it was his sacrifice to save the galaxy from Thrawn and she just throws it away.
It could have been a good love plot drama, Ezra understand she did because she loves him but still is angry wit her for bad moral choice.
Sabine was manipulated into giving Baylan the map. You seriously want Ezra or Ahsoka to berate her for that?
@theanonymouscritic1710 The decision she made that brings Thrawn back to the galaxy to reignite the war that will put countless lives at risk undoing the sacrifice that Ezra lost 10 years of his life for? Yes I would think they would have some words to say. Obviously, yes, they would eventually reconcile and everything would be OK, but that was a conversation that should have definitely happened because it would have given us some interesting drama.
@@Bradical204 The main thing for me is that it shows the decision was at least questionable.
If you look at it (and no, I don't think she was manipulated, she knew what could happen, she knew Thrawn could return given the fact that they needed the map to do exactly that: bring him back, and she didn't have a real plan to do anything about it, at least none I could see) the decision was 100% selfish. It was her wish to see Ezra, going after such a selfish wish is a Sith thing to do. Looking at Ezra as well: he looked rather ok with his situation. He made the decision to sacrifice himself to save the universe from Thrawn, and looking at him in the series he seemed to be rather ok with who he was, where he was and the aftermath of said decision.
So yes, I agree he should have something to say about it. Ahsoka as her master should also have some words to say to a decision that is basically an evil one. She might not be a Jedi anymore, but she clearly should be light side and recognize that Sabine is going down a rather questionable road right here.
Another thing for Ahsoka and the map when she had the map she didn’t want to destroy it and wanted to find Ezra, but once the map was lost to the bad guys she wanted to destroy it cause they didn’t have the firepower to win it back
I have to say that this idea that Jedi don't kill... is not said anywhere at least in the movies. People confuse "good guys = don't kill" but that is not a core tenant rule explicitly stated in the Jedi... it's understood compassion above violence but they are not above using it to stop a great threat.
Did they forget the dismembering of Maul and the decapitation of dooku? Those were completely acceptable actions, according to the Jedi Order anyway.
@@Someguy1357the decapitation of Dooku wouldn’t be okay, but nobody else saw that he was defenseless at that moment
@@disguisedcentennial835 Of course not. I'm just referring to the idea of taking lives. I'm sure the Jedi Council would prefer capture and condemn killing those who surrender. Dead or alive seem to be the options for Sith Lords though.
@@Someguy1357 The whole point of the decapitation of Dooku, a surrendered unarmed enemy, was that it's not acceptable and not the Jedi way. I agree with the overall point, Maul's is a good example, but Dooku isn't.
@@LedPESRule Dooku still is, in that Anakin was made a council member because of that. But it’s because they thought he killed Dooku in combat, not in execution. Still, shows that it’s okay to kill.
I guess we shouldn't be surprised since Disney has been on a mission to rewrite their villains, who thought Cruella DeVille of all characters needed a tragic, sympathetic backstory?
She kills puppies and wears their skin 🤣 Disney is whack.
I thought it like a spin off or and AU thing. It was supposed to be a canonical retelling??
Why can’t some villains just be power-hungry, high-functioning psychopaths? Such people do exist, and it’s not because their mom didn’t hug them enough as a kid
The worst part is how non-sensical her sympathetic backstory was.💀
"I wanna kill puppies and wear their skin because a dog killed ma grandma"
(it wasn't her grandma, but still)
With Kenobi it seems like they treated it as a moral victory for Obi-Wan to not become like Vader, but forgot the context. They probably thought RotJ, but forgot about the redemption and Obi-Wan's opinions on Vader.
With Sabine it seemed like the writer is fully aware that she's commiting a moral failure, but didn't find the time to explore it later. Also because Filoni, it's likely that the Force adapted in the fly, and made sure Ezra will get home to help thwarting Thrawn, and Ahsoka is dealing with whatever Baylan is up to.
The writers didn't explore shit. We had tons of screen time for characters, and they hardly said anything, and when they did, it was not relevant to anything that made sense.
To be fair, Sabine has a history of making stupid decisions with severe consequences.
For example, Mandalore wouldn't have suffered the Night of a Thousand Tears if she took ownership of the Darksaber and never handed it over to Bo-Katan without her earning it in combat. And that's just one instance I can think of off the top of my head.
So Sabine surrendering the star map to Baylan is simply continuing that long line of costly mistakes and her inability to take responsibility for her reckless actions. And there will be severe consequences - Thrawn returning to the main galaxy which paves the eventual rise of the First Order - for that simple action.
this show and dave et al are so frustrating.@@rebelfighter5249
It´s Dangerhair Sue, Felony´s pet fanfic OC. He will never acknowledge she did something wrong. She is one of these "waaahhhmen can do nothing wrong" pr0pag4nda devices camouflaged as characters, just like Bo-Karen, Guyladriel, Admiral Gender Studies.
You’re a smart guy when it comes to TH-cam, Thor! By giving the viewers a chance to have their comment read in your videos, it incentivizes commenting, which is, no doubt, very beneficial to you and the channel. Surprised more channels haven’t thought of that lol
Nowadays it’s less about what a character does, but rather who they are
Absoloutely and let's face it, the sequel trilogy as well as the Disney+ Star Wars TV shows where made by creating a large list of 'diverse' characters first and then bodging them into a story, or at least their idea of what a story is, only to find that they can't come up with a story that supports the large amount of pointless characters they wanted to impose on the fans.
The funny thing is, you just make the whole "Obi-Wan VS Vader" fight a VISION or a NIGHTMARE and it works. Obi-Wan doesn't have blood on his hands and it doesn't break canon (...well the whole show breaks canon but that's another story)
Not a nightmare but a shared vision between Vader and Obi wan
Maybe even a test given by Qui-Gon to help Obi-wan move past his trauma so he can then finish his training. Similar to the test that Yoda gave Luke in Empire. Would have been a much cooler reveal for Qui-Gon as well.
The map was really not needed to find Ezra at all.
Ahsoka just used the space whales and got to the other galaxy without it after all. They just needed to find where the whales lived and voilà, the path to Ezra opens up without letting Thrawn free... how in the years spent searching for him (Ezra) they never tried that is beyond me...
The idea is portrayed very poorly, but I believe the idea is that Ashoka wouldn't have been able to connect with the pergil prior to her "epiphany". Still very poorly shown if that's it. What is obvious in comparison is that it was unknown to Ashoka as to whether or not the space whales were going to bring her to Ezra and Thrawn or leave her stuck in some distant galaxy stranded. I find it ridiculously funny that there's no way she would have even known that the planet the whales first encountered was actually Peridia if she hadn't been bombarded by mines and shot by fighters. Technically those things alone didn't even have to be correlated to Thrawn from what she knew. She didn't even know where she was. Only reason she knew she was in the right place was because of her out of the blue force connection with Sabine. That's what's actually dumb. Ashoka stated she was taking a risk jumping in a space whale, it one she wasn't willing to take before the 5th episode.
The map was needed. Not every bus is going to your destination. Not every purgill is going to the next galaxy.
@@hoos3014 If only the purgil vomited them into a black hole...
Hey Thor,
I appreciate your work heavily. Sometimes we agree, sometimes not. Either way, great stuff from you and Naboo. Just wanted to say, blows my mind how you in like 2 min gave a 10x more compelling storyline for this series than what we got. I actually legitimately was thinking like damn, this also would’ve caused a lot of Sabine hate to not have come. (Even though most people prolly not gonna come around on the Sabine Jedi thing lol)
Because we have two opposing factions and depictions of Star Wars within Lucasfilm. There’s Filoni and Favreau feeding us easy to consume crack-cocaine. And there’s Tony Gilroy feeding us nutritious slow cooked meals. Sorry, but my standards have risen and I refuse to go back to pathetic action light shows that just appear because the plot said so.
Bahahahaha glorious
Please go away now.
Tony Gilroy and Favreau are not factions, they're just hired guns. Only Filoni works at Lucasfilm.
Looks like the majority of audiences refuse to watch Andor as well. Both Andor and Favreau/Filoniverse is trash. You refuse to eat sheep poo, but willing to eat cow poo.
The part about the ISB being too dumb to deduce the Bail/Leia/ObiWan link on top of Vader being too dumb to deduce these things brings you full circle to the problem in Disney Star Wars: the writers do not have an understanding of the lore or source material, in addition to that they do not care about the story Lucas was trying to tell, they care about the story they are trying to tell and that is the crux of the problem. The writers are more interested in telling their story with George Lucas's world and characters than they are with continuing the legacy of his story and honoring it. That is why none of this stuff feels like Star Wars, it feels like a child came into a room with Star Wars character action figures and started smashing them together. "Ohhh I know it doesn't make any sense with the dialog in EP. 4 and it creates massive plot holes and moral dilemmas but wouldn't it be sooooo coool if Vader and Obiwan fought again for no reason other than deceptive marketing?!!?!" The fact they hijacked that show and that story and those characters and their story/history is some of the most gross negligence I've ever seen in any reboot, the people responsible for this should be blacklisted from the industry but everybody in the industry is too buddy buddy and up their own ass to actually call out and criticize the laziness and low level, dumb writing in this show and every other Disney Star Wars disaster.
Sabine being the one finding the "map" definitely would have improved the story a lot. It would show she was still very much obssessed with finding Erza. Could have been a reason for Ahsoka to stop training her (fearing she might fall to the dark side). Could explain why Ahsoka didn't destroy the map in the beginning (she wouldn't have been the one to find it). Could explain the rift between the two in the beginning since maybe Ahsoka could have said that they can't risk finding Erza because they might find Thrawn. So many motivations would be better. (Would require a slight retcon) Could even explain Anakin's lesson to Ahsoka. That she must keep fighting the good fight. Because if she doesn't, evil wins or something. Maybe Ahsoka had stopped being a Jedi and just wanted to live a life of peace and Sabine's mistake forces her to act. At first she was reluctant, after the lesson she would be on board with it all again.
Plot contrivances and poor writing unfortunately has been consistent in recent Star Wars shows (except for Andor)
Anybody notice that Thor refuses to start a video by saying any other word besides "Now"? 😅
you must be new here, ha!
Try not to start a video without saying "now" challenge: Now impossible.
I would’ve liked a line in _Kenobi,_ when Obi-Wan is about to finally strike down Vader, but in that moment Qui-Gon finally speaks to him, and says something to stay his hand and let him live… something like “he is the Chosen One, he will destroy the Sith,” or just “trust the Force,” or something much better than those ideas 🤷🏻♂️
The kenobi series was not great but fuck me was haydens facial acting with the half mask was perfect
Yeah, that was probably the one thing about Kenobi that I didn't have a problem with. The acting overall was really good. The rest though....
@@adrianchatman5734 The acting is top notch it's just literally everything else
@@adrianchatman5734 Even the child actress who played little Leia has some impressive acting skills for a kid of her age.
@@Mouse_Metal yeah no doubt. She has a great future if she chooses to stick with it.
It's not that Jedi don't kill. It's that they don't kill the defenseless. Look to Anakin and Quinlan Voss as examples. Anakin killing a defenseless Dooku all but sealed his fate. Quinlan being tasked to assassinate Dooku Turned him dark almost irreversibly.
Do you mean the chad EU Vos or Filoni's dumbed down surfer Vos from TCW?
I’ve come to realize that the negative aspects that made villains are now being used for heroes, arrogance, pride or selfishness instead of humility, growth and wisdom.
It´s the narcissist´s power fantasy. The writers are toxic people, so their her-oes are the same.
Everyone is looking for “shades of grey” today and don’t wanna hear about good and evil. We must analyze the psychology of evil men and the good guys are just too boring. We have to make them commit questionable acts in order for the audience to pay attention to their stories.
The is what happens when you continually consume media that says there is no good and evil, just people and power. No, there is absolutely good and evil and we see it every day. This is just the MO for companies like Disney who introduce moral relativistic principles to younger and younger generations.
You know what’s truly interesting? Having morally good characters with strong values being presented with false choices, and morally dubious circumstances but finding their way to what is right and holding on to their values despite the world around them trying to influence them into shades of grey.
But that doesn’t fit the goals and ideals of companies like Disney today. They’d rather make fun of upright and righteous men like Steve Rogers and Luke Skywalker. By making fun of them being sexually pure, or old school. This is how we get troubled writing like in Kenobi and Sabine’s choice. I don’t see why she needed to hand over the map and couldn’t lose a fight and get captured. Why make her make this morally dubious choice and not follow up the consequences? Disney doesn’t understand the psychology of good characters & WHY they shouldn’t make these choices!
It’s literally because good guys have strong values. They understand consequences. Consequences that have negative impacts on greater numbers of people rather than themselves. Selflessness vs selfishness.
These characters are good because they literally pick up their cross(in a Christian sense) and die to themselves continually. That doesn’t fit the follow your heart mantra of Disney today.
As a matter of fact, isn't the quote "there is no good or evil, only power and thise who seek to wield it" a villain quote? I'm pretty sure Voldemort said it...
@@ellugerdelacruz2555yup! It follows our moral relativistic society today. Where there isn’t good or evil but whoever has power decides it. Or more power than the majority. The choices of the good guys are hollow because good and evil are no longer defined around them.
Extremely well said!
@@Shawn-363 What's your opinion about Rogue One, Andor, Star Wars: Rebels, Jedi: Fallen Order, and Jedi: Survivor? I think that movie, shows, and video games have a better portrayal of good v.s. evil than Kenobi and the sequel trilogy. Also, you seem to have a shallow understanding of heroes and villains. You seem to be implying that heroes should have no moral flaws and that villains should just be stereotypically evil with no backstory. You also seem to be implying that villains should have no redemption. No hero is perfect. The mark of a great hero is their flaw. Villains on the other hand should have a backstory. People don't become evil overnight. Portraying a hero as 100% good with no moral flaws and a villain with no backstory about why they're so evil is completely unrealistic. What Star Wars needs is good and competent writers who actually understand how to write proper heroes and proper villains.
Hey Thor, how well do you think this could have worked for the Kenobi show:
In the Kenobi and Vader “rematch of the century”, after Vader says that Anakin is gone, Kenobi kills Vader.
Let that sink in.
We as the audience would be watching it the whole time saying “but we know how this has to end” and then BOOM it suddenly become obvious that this was never meant to keep cannon. Then he returns to Tatooine just in time to save Luke, but Reva had already killed the Lars. This would launch as alternative history universe where Kenobi is training a young Luke as they come out of hiding to defeat the Emperor.
That would have subverted the expectation but is a way that totally makes sense.
Killing Vader would have solidified that show as stuff of legend and film classes would be praising it for decades. Everyone would be talking about the ending instead of about how dumb it was to have Leia hide under the trench coat.
Bro, making OT not matter is only gonna happen when George is dead 😂
Meh leave the AU stuff for fanfiction imo.
@@CrazyxEnigma but that fan fiction would have been infinitely better than what we got lol. It's honestly not a terrible idea.
@@adrianchatman5734 I'm sure it's out there in the wild somewhere. It's been awhile since I've browsed SW stuff but from what I remember time travel and alternative universes are fairly common. Just gotta get through the trash and mediocre stuff to find it!
Hey Thor! This topic fits into a larger discussion about how Disney has been handling villains across its franchises. In Marvel, many of the villains lately have had intentions that are not necessarily evil and often are "relatable" to the audience and makes the audience feel sorry for the villain. Losing children and loved ones (real and imaginary), feeling unjustly persecuted, wanting to return to home (even if that home wasn't yours to begin with), protecting your home and property - these are all emotions the audience connects with and Marvel/Disney has been portraying these villains as "right reasons, wrong methods." We've had very few villains who are truly villainous with evil intentions. And then there are the Disney live-action remakes that have reduced the threat of their villains. Primary example of this is Ursula in The Little Mermaid, who had lyrics in her "villain" song changed to make her less evil for fear of... the audience taking her advice to heart? I still don't understand that one, one of the points of the hero defeating the villain is to show that the hero's values are greater than that of the villain and thus the audience should use the hero as an example to follow in life, not the villain. And finally, in Star Wars it is very much blurred on whether the heroes are the heroes or villains of the story and not for the intention of creating morally complex heroes. Instead, it makes the heroes seem ignorant and dumb, which is attributed to bad writing, not complex writing that is involved in writing complex characters. I would love to hear your thoughts!
Also, I have commented multiple times what direction I think the Ahsoka show should have taken. If you easily cannot find those comments, I am willing to take the time to find them and copy-paste them below! Love your videos and your balanced approach to Star Wars and story telling!
Instead of just straight up walking away from Darth Vader, what are other things that could've made more sense if Obi-Wan had no other choice but to leave?
Acknowledge he acts out of convenience instead of portraying it as a moral victory.
Or better yet, don't create that situation, but have Obi-Wan achieve that moral victory by simply standing up to Vader and getting away with it.
Almost anything would have made more sense. My personal thought is that a squad of stormtroopers should have come blasting in, driving away Obi-Wan and evacuating Vader for treatment. No starship captain would ever want to be the man to face the Emperor and explain how he let Vader die, and Palpatine would clearly not accept "just following orders" as an excuse. So send another shuttle with a full squad or two to follow behind and step in if things went sideways.
Easy , when Obi-Wan is about to jump and strike him down for good he feels the inquisitors coming down where Vader is.
(Let's say that inside the main ship the machine can tell Vader suit is failing so they go down to assist him ,GI orders).
At the same time you can add Luke being in danger and Kenobi feeling it.
This situation is great I'll say .
Easy, you just have a big earthquake rift suddenly show up right between them as the planet has a giant weapon installation that was hit by a few bombs. and then Chewy swoops in to pick up Obi-Wan. ta-da!
Hey Thor. Recent reports have shed light on the issues at the Mouse-House. Some of the biggest are that there have been no writer rooms, no true showrunning. The studio has been meddling or outright "running" series by throwing stuff at the wall and then "we'll fix it in post" as the solution. (Secret Invasion is the prime example of this.)
The most recent and glaring reports center on Daredevil. One of the BEST series ever made (not just a superhero show) got "she-hulked"...and now the entire directing/writing AND completed (reportedly 4) episodes of their new DD series just got tossed in the trashcan for being a 'courtroom drama' where Matt Murdock doesn't even don his costume until the 4th episode. 😀
As these shenanigans come to light, is it any wonder that 90% of these series are less than stellar? (Exception for obvious reasons being Andor.)
I honestly think that Disney and Lucasfilm just don't think about the implications of events and actions. A match up between Obi-Wan and Vader was cool! Everyone wants to see it! I think that's literally the depth of their thinking.
found it hilarious that Ezra is supposed to be so important for her to find but when she finally does she acts like its just a co worker wtf disney cant write normal human interactions its so weird
They’re desperate to keep things sexless. Hera had a kid with Kanan, but were they ever shown even kissing in Rebels? If it weren’t for that brief scene with Bix and Timm-with-two-m’s in Andor, you’d assume that everyone in the Star Wars galaxy reproduced by budding.
@@CantankerousDaveto be fair, rebels was a show for 5 year olds
A twi'lek sex scene would have been nice though
Yep especially when you push a theme like "their is no light or darkness" that only shows you have no concept of either.
The first time when he fought Vader, there was a good reason why he left him alive: he thought he was gonna die. He was limbless, and on fire, and he had to make sure Padme was ok while dealing with the weight of everything going on.
“I mean the best parts about Star Wars is there is no good or evil. It depends on what side you are standing on, truly.” - Charlie Barnett, star of The Acolyte.
Ahsoka leaving the map with Sabine was not a great plan. Her not destroying it initially does make sense as she thought the threat from the Imperials forces was minimal at that point. I'm fully on board with a title change for this show. Call it Master & Apprentice and give us even more time with Baylan and Shin.
They don't seem to understand very much about anything.
Kenobis final fight could’ve been far better if they fought on that planet, and then a bit into the fight they go into some sort of crystal cave to 1: give some really cool visuals instead of the crappy rock and darkness, and 2: Vader could’ve fallen into some sort of cavern in order to end the fight without kenobi just walking away
So kinda like Malachor fight? 😂 They already copied the mask thing, they would have been sued by Filoni for plagiarism
also, a character making a bad choice can still be good characterization, like for Sabine i think it is a choice that makes sense for her character. but you would think obi Wan would have learned his lesson by now, making it a bad choice and not really in character
None of this makes the heros bad. It just makes them very very dumb, which is the core problem of disney era star wars. It feels like everything is written plot first and then the characters are squished into that plot instead of letting character motivations drive plot. That's not to say plot first can't work, but the amount of effort that has gone in to making characters fit in their plot is pitiful.
It is not just Disney, its everyone.... The elves in lord of the rings are evil now... and the federation in star trek are fascists.. I think its all the postmodern graduate writers.. we just need them do retire out and then maybe the next generation of Hollywood writers can go back to telling good stories, instead of deconstructing old ones...
Both were horrendous.
The only thing that makes Kenobi worse is that it tore apart canon. Ahsoka and Sabine's mistakes don't have the same stakes and implications and obviously serve to make Thrawn a villain in another project. Them making the Kenobi atrocity is made worse by the knowledge of everything that happens before and after.
The more you think about these shows, the more they fall apart. Thats probably why they keep trying to get our attentions to other shows the moment one is done
Just like most Modern Anime these days...
"Don't question it, just consume product and get excited for the next one."
Sorry to say that it's just a short while after the series concluded and I've already forgotten about it. There's nothing memorable or tangible to take away and think about. It's as simple as that. I'm afraid it's destined for the same fate as so many of the Disney Star Wars iterations.
You make great points the problem is it was a self-contained story in the original trilogy. The more TV shows, and the more movies they make the more logical errors the more they destroy the integrity of what was constructed and create all these problems with the plot and the story and incidences that now no longer makes sense
Hey Thor, you mentioned in this video about how Ahsoka probably would have been better if it had been named something generic and focused on Sabine as a main character. I noticed a similarity with what you've said in the past about Andor being called "Star Wars: The Dark Times" or something. What do you think has caused Lucasfilm's seeming obsession with naming shows and movies after characters? (Solo, Andor, Kenobi, Ahsoka, etc...) Do you think it's just Marvel's success prior to phase four or do you think there's something else to it as well? Curious to hear your thoughts.
It’s just another example of their creativity & amount of thought they put into their product.
I think it's that they wanna money grab from famous names in the franchise
When you cannot write competence, you are unable to write justifications for your characters' actions. This is where Disney _always_ falls short nowadays.
On one hand it comes down to this: when you think someone needs to die, don't depend on circumstances, just kill them.
On the other hand, there's the case of mercy, very strongly shown in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in the mercy given to Gollum. It led in the future to having Gollum take the Ring from Frodo when Frodo failed and then Gollum fell into the volcano, destroying the Ring when Frodo couldn't. What can the mercy shown to Vader produce in the future? Vader kills Palpatine when Luke couldn't.
I've also thought of a wild idea. What if in the Return of the Jedi, Vader didn't die. Luke had him removed from his armour and put into a medical facility in secret. An empty suit of armour was cremated. Maybe in the future, a healed and more balanced Anakin, Darth Vader, master of both the Light Side and the Dark Side, could work to redeem himself by aiding the New Republic with his skills in combat and command.
I don’t understand why Disney hasn’t learned by now. Maybe the pressure to churn out content is part of the problem. That’s why so many shows feel like 1st or 2nd drafts, not the final product.
The part about that is so frustrating is that all it would’ve taken seeing the problem and offering a viable justification.
Obi, wan senses that Luke is at risk. Nose that his primary duty is on the line.
That’s it I’m pausing and going Luke as he touches his head and running off fixes that problem.
It’s not perfect. One of the reasons they’re protecting the children is so that they can act against Peter in the future so if you can end Vader, but still the responsibility of protecting the child in that moment would definitely add to the weight of the moment.
It couldn't even have been called REBELS because these characters didn't represent the Rebel characters that well either.
I'm in agreement there. Disney really doesn't get it. Gone down some bland nonsense where everyone is good and everyone is evil. Everything is just gray.
You can have heroes, villains, good, and evil. It's not a crime for fiction to create those lines in the sand and have fun with the setting. I don't Disney will figure that out, but it just shows why so many of their shows and movies have been failing. Not the whole reason, but one more of those reasons.
It makes evil people feel better about themselves when heroes aren’t that great either
Probably because most people are both good and evil
Kenobi's lightsaber in that Kenobi show technically should not have killed anyone, since this is Disney star wars so they are rendered useless now
Name of show: Frontiers Beyond
allude to Peridea & to Frontiers of the Force being explored with Ahsoka & Sabine
Hey Thor, I have a different take on the climactic events in Kenobi. I'm curious as to what you think of this.
What I understood from Kenobi was that when Obi Wan charged Vader after disrupting his suit's life support, he went for the kill by slicing at his head. However, he failed to land the killing blow, and instead only sliced the helmet, if not also a part of Vader's scalp.
Vader used this to his advantage after having narrowly escaped death to psychologically manipulate Kenobi into having pity for him, bringing to light Kenobi's regret, sadness, and self-deprecation. Emotions that Vader would absolutely sense and relate to, thus establishing a wicked familiarity to then manipulate Kenobi into backing off.
They have the emotional interaction with one another, and Kenobi, realizing what Vader claims himself to be and accepting it, backs off because he can sense Vader's growing anger and determination to kill him, even if it means they both die. Kenobi, having received grace by a vision of Luke and Leia from the Force earlier that allowed him to muster the confidence and strength to lift the boulders off of him, knows that should he die here, the two children's lives would be in jeopardy. This would have been his same logic as to why he was determined to kill Vader, as in should he allow Vader to live, their lives and the lives of countless others will be in jeopardy.
What changed was that he failed to kill Vader, and lost the advantage of surprise as well as his newfound strength in the Force due to exhaustion (b/c of course he hasn't acclimated to the Force enough yet to be as strong as he used to be a decade ago). As such, if he were to continue the fight with an enraged and focused Vader right there and then, he risks losing his own life more than he did before. Therefore, the prudent option was to surrender the fight and retreat.
Now, I want to clarify that this may not be what they were trying to convey, but it is how I interpreted the scene. However, if this was indeed what they were trying to convey, I do believe they failed miserably in being precise. I only came to this full conclusion after the fact trying to make sense of the scene. The most egregious issue here is that if it's true Vader was invigorated enough to take Kenobi on in a weakened state regardless of his own life, then why did he allow Kenobi to walk away? He could've easily force choked him and prevented him from retreating. Now, one can say "Force defenses," as of course there have been plenty of opportunities for villains in the past to have simply force choked or shocked any Jedi they challenged with a lightsaber duel but didn't.
Ok, taking that into account, the scene I think justifies itself in principle. But, it fails to visually communicate those principles well. As such, I think it would have been much better if the scene played out normally, up until Vader finishes saying "And now I will destroy you," or something along those lines. Before Kenobi could even have the chance to speak and accept what has changed in Anakin, Vader Force chokes him by capitalizing on Kenobi's emotional weakness. Kenobi, now in a state of peril, uses what fortitude and focus he has left to Force crush Vader's suit, or even bring down an entire rock pillar on top of Vader preventing Vader from continuing killing him and hopefully kill Vader instead. Kenobi is released, and due to a lack of oxygen and their injuries, both lose consciousness and collapse onto the ground.
Kenobi wakes up later and sees Vader still unconscious on the ground, believes he is dead, and then says what he has learned to accept. He then leaves as he looks up and sees Imperial vessels coming down to secure the area and retrieve Vader after a suspicious passage of silence from his comm link.
This would clearly show Kenobi's intentions in killing Vader, but failed to do so, clarifying the moral dilemma. or if the scene was actually conveying what I interpreted, the moral confusion many including yourself continue to grapple with.
Tight, logical plots have never been a high priority for modern Disney. Also the lives of modern Disney characters are worth far more than the great unwashed.
Entertainment is a product of culture and we all know how effed up Disney's culture is. Being somewhat sane and moral, working at Disney these days would be one of the planes of hell for me.
Not even close. Kenobi is way worse. I appreciate you taking your time to answer all posts as to why the Kenobi show is as bad as it is and I’ve shared your videos among my friends. Many don’t agree with your takes but you have made some great points that I just can’t ignore.
Goodness a lot of these video starting comments are familiar. I din't know how many you usually get but i'm surprised how many I took the time to dwell on before hand. I'll say what I said there I Guess:
_Not to defend how they handled sabines terrible decision and what she does after, but at least you get a sense of why she did it. Like the train of thought is explainable. With obiwan he blatantly admits his belief that Anakin is gone and only darth vader remains, has the opportunity to kill him, but then doesn't and never elaborates why._
"Clearly Dedra was on vacation this week." 🤣😂🤣😂
Come to think of it, Kenobi lets Vader live at least three times now. In Revenge of the Sith he had his best chance. He also doesn't even bother fighting him in A New Hope, hew just toys with him and then sacrifices himself to let Luke escape. Then in the Kenobi series he just continually runs away.
Obviously the real world reason for this is it was already set that Vader would die in Episode VI. Which gives him the same problem as Dooku and Grievous. Every time you use them, you have to come up with some reason they or their opponent runs. Which is why you should not just keep using these kinds of villains. Use other villains whose fate can be decided in the story you are telling at the time.
Thor's videos about Star Wars are so much more interesting and intelligent than Star Wars itself.
Hey Thor, instead of these mammoth sized disasters of overproduced hubris, should Disney focus on their animated shows and maybe some lower budget live action stuff that leaves the Jedi behind. I’m not talking Caravan of Courage here but Andor is the high point of the last few years and it had no Jedi or Sith. It seems these high profile shows are falling flat and maybe some lower stakes and lowered expectations could help get things on track. And a lower budget could give some creative freedom for show runners to tell Star Wars stories that are less galaxy spanning. Like Cheers but at an imperial bar on the Death Star or something. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
In a Kenobi fan edit, Obi-Wan hears the voice of Qui-Gon telling him that Anakin IS the chosen one before Obi-Wan walk away. It helps.
Which edit? Where is it?
@@Mouse_Metal Oh man, i don't remember what it is called, but it basically edits out half the show. Reva dies when Vader stabs her.
I'll try to find it. Found it on youtube, if you search Obi-Wan Kenobi fan edit you might find it.
Edit: I think it's called The Patterson cut
“Stupid Sandwich “. lol Thor you got that right
"She was on vacation this week" lmao
This brings some really bad memories... Kenobi of course, I thought I made my peace with that flaming pile of garbage but I was wrong, so wrong.
I think Palps worried that after another round he will be without an apprentice.
You have to give Thor props for trying to make sense out of nonsense. Thrawn didn’t exactly have to die but he could have been arrested for warcrimes while serving the Empire and after the Emperor was killed. To give him the map, however, was a shit move. It would have been a stronger move to decide she doesn’t need Thrawn to find Ezra. As for Kenobi, that show shouldn’t have even happened if they were gonna just make it one massive canon breaker, between the Inquisitor Hunts, an unnecessary onscreen explanation for how Leia would recognize the name ‘Ben Kenobi’ (because audience members can’t use their imagination, apparently), and Darth Vader not only needlessly being on Tatooine but also having another duel with a shallow Obi-Wan before their inevitable fight on the Death Star.
There is literally no direction or care under Disney. Anybody who did care about Star Wars who *wasn’t* fired for it like Dave Filoni are being corrupted by Disney. There’s no heart and fans have seen so much crap content with the Star Wars brand slapped onto it that we’ve been accepting the minimum, something we never did prior. Only now do we accept minimum content because we’re desperate for true Star Wars again. If true Star Wars was really what they cared to create, they wouldn’t do petty things like try to make what they now call ‘Legends’ instead of ‘EU’ lost media.
Ashoka not only didn't destroy the map for the greater good when she had the chance she also failed to protect the map because she should of went after Sabine immediately after she took off with the map but didn't. So Ashoka failed twice in the first episode alone which doesn't make her look very smart. When it comes to Sabine what she did was treasonous straight up because she did all of it on her own from stealing the map even after being told the danger of doing so to handing over the map of her own free will so what she did is even worse in my opinion then Obi Wan even what he did was bad to.
I respect Thor more Star Wars Theory because A) He does not say outlandish things B)Does not show their face and C) Well he is respectful and can keep an open mind.
the most laughable thing in this show was that Sabine was the only one in the galaxy capable of solving a glorified rubix cube - or sphere in this case
Mary of all Sues.
And defense is violence as well,it’s a war Kenobi should have killed Vader in both occasions.
Still i think Sabine is worse than Kenobi because I’m sure Kenobi must have thought that Vader wouldn’t survive near the lava shore in ep.3.
Sabine just wanted to selfishly see Ezra again and Ahsoka well idk.
I hope Disney stops making the viability of the villains a thing due to our heroes’ selfishness.
You forgot how Ezra didn’t kill Thrawn, after it got lost in the other galaxy and escaped from him.
You make good points from a linear point of view. But
Like Gollum, in the Lord of the rings, Gandolf, Bilbo and Frodo, all lead call him, live out of pity, knowing how evil and wretched he was, and he was the one that destroyed the ring in the end.
My take on this is Sabin what is guided by the force to bring the three Jedi to the distant galaxy to tackle a bigger evil, then Thrawn.
The argument that Kenobi wouldn't kill Vader because "Jedi don't kill" flies in the face of elementary logic as well as what we have seen. Letting Vader live effectively killed countless other sentient beings. Just another example of the poor writing that plagued that show right from the start.
As far as Sabine vs Ahsoka goes, Sabine actually turned over the map to Baylan at a moment in time when it would lead directly to the Eye of Sion leaving for Peridea within minutes. That wasn't the situation Ahsoka was in and in my view makes what Sabine did far worse.
It was so easy to have Kenobi walk over to kill Anakin and have 2 tie fighters shoot at him and not letting him kill vader. It wouldn't be a thing today and obi wan wouldn't be questioned why did he let him alive. 🙄
It's not that they don't know the difference between heroes and villains. It's they want to showcase a heroic character doing an irresponsible action and not getting punished. It's all part the narrative. They need it so that any irresponsible action they do to star wars franchise, they hoped that fans don't punished them too much.
Damn, that's some 5D chess, but isn't it easier to just be responsible?
They are literally teaching kids to be arrogant, selfish brats. but only if they are girls. Only her-oes can act like villains and get away with it. It is f-ing pr0pag4nda and it destroys the society from the inside.
Well I don't see Kenobi as canon, I still see it as Vader when he says " I sense someting, a presence I haven't felt since..." He is refering to Mustafar.
When it comes to Sabine I don't think she can do no wrong. I mean she wouldn't have become a Jedi master if she hadn't got to the other galaxy. So now she will save everyone and become a Skywalker too
It just comes down to bad writing in Kenobi and Ahsoka. Obi Wan couldn't kill Vader because obviously we need him in ANH. Sabine didn't destroy the map because the plot demanded they make it to the next galaxy. This could've worked better if we saw these characters really struggle emotionally with these decisions, but in neither case did we really get that. They could've benefited from the failure -> reflection -> redemption cycle. Instead, what happened, happened, and everyone just moved on.
More fruitful ground is in stories that deal with moral gray areas, or characters being forced to make decisions where all the options are bad. It feels like Rogue One and Andor handled that a lot better. Is Cassian a villain for killing that other rebel spy early in R1, or was it the best among terrible options? It's easy to root for Dedra Meero early on as she battles the sexism and petty infighting of the ISB, until we see she's just as bad as the worst imperials when she starts torturing people.
That isn’t bad writing in Kenobi. It’s a sign the show was I’ll conceived to start with as many people said when they announced they were going to wreck canon in the initial announcement for the show.
Thank you for the video discussing this.
The Kenobi show should have been more like how Book of Boba after was with a lot of self reflection and flashbacks to his past, dealing with the feelings of being responsible of Anakin’s turn to the dark side,while showing him watching over Luke, making attempts with Owen to try and get permission to train him, and working towards establishing contact with Qui Gin’s force ghost. And you could cut to Vader’s point of view as he tries to hunt for Kenobi maybe coming close to finding him and Luke but just narrowly avoiding them.
Then Book of Boba Fett should have been a cross galaxy adventure with Fett being a bounty hunter.
Hey Thor, even better idea! Ditch Sabine and Ezra, focus on Ahsoka and Baylin and take it from there. An Ahsoka series about Ahsoka, that would have been great!
In regards to 02:45 killing is not the Jedi way. I'll quote Vergere. "...a contradiction like those Jedi who wield it. Those peaceful warriors who kill in the service of life."
That lighstsaber fight just needed to end with Vader burying Obi-Wan under the rocks. Vader walks away arrogantly believing he's got his revenge and Kenobi is dead, kinda mirroring Obi-Wan in ROTS, and after struggling to go on holding up the rocks Obi-Wan remembers his promise to Yoda in ROTS, "I will take the boy and watch over him," and finds the strength in purpose to escape, but now Vader is gone.
It is a short term defeat for Obi-Wan, but a long term victory, since he has already accomplished his goal of distracting Vader to save Leia, and his character arc is complete with him being reinvigorated and committed to his duty again. This also explains why Vader didn't ever look for him again and was so surprized when he felt Obi-Wan's presence on the Death Star in ANH. The level of complexity, significance, and logic is instantly 10x by ending it this way.
The trouble with Sabine's choice is that it is directly in contrast with the choice of Ezra, who sacrificed himself to save his friends, free Lothal and remove Thrawn as a threat. Sabine undoes all of that for the sake of her friendship. And then, despite some minor set up from the show, the morality and implications in terms of their relationship are completely unexplored.
It could have made for a fascinating character arc if her actions had lead to the breaking of their friendship, or even to Ezra's death, resulting in Sabine having to come to terms with the consequences of her actions, and an opportunity for genuine character growth by her finding the resolve to set things right.
What it boils down to, in both Ahsoka and Kenobi, is a lack of care, imagination and courage on the part of the writers.
There was a lot of potential for conflict between our heroes that was totally wasted. Ezra should have been very upset with Sabine, absolute friendship breaking decision. In addition Ezra has been so isolated from people like himself, he should not be psychologically intact. Ezra always struggled with the dark side in rebels. And with no support system so far away... realistically I think he should have been as insane as Darth Maul was when he was found on the junk planet. You save Ezra, but is Ezra still a good guy?
Also side note about unexplored conflict between heroes, in the Clone Wars show Ahsoka has killed a Lot of mandolorians, it's weird how this is never brought up and never an issue with Sabine. The Jedi and Mandolorians aren't just historical rivals, Ahsoka led a ground war against Mandolors capital. Pretty weird that is totally glossed over.
@@AmazingMrMe123, exactly. What they gave us is just so boring and empty. Hell, even the awkward reunion could have been about both of them hiding guilt or misgivings. But no, it's just that nobody at Disney can write human emotions, so they'll hide behind the idea that awkward is endearing.
When viewers are suggesting more compelling character arcs and plot points, it makes you wonder why on earth the writers were chosen, and why nobody at any point seems to raise any objection or criticism about the script.
@@matttrevers2552 it's just gutless writing. Come to think about it Ezra, Sabine, and Ahsoka were all child soldiers. Yet none of them show any real signs of trauma. Ahsoka's lack of noticeable trauma as an adult is the biggest thing I feel is missing from her portrayals as an adult.
Space Aladdin is a god guy, Dangerhair Sue is a narc.
@@AmazingMrMe123 Your ideas are far better than Pissney´s version.
And speaking about the Mandos not having a problem with Ahwoka, Felony is such a hack they didn´t have a problem with Bo-Karen, the 2nd in command of Death Watch - the terr0rist group which existed only to kill dutchess Satine and turn Mandalore into a warmongering society again - ruling over the planet after all of the atrocities she has commited.
There is also no implication Maul treated the Mandos badly after becoming the ruler. When Boo arrived with the Republic forces she brough war on the planet which was existing just fine without her. The intervention was also illegal because Mandalore was an independent planet. They literally took down one warlord to replace him with even worse warlady.
What i dont' 'understand is why Thrawn is a threat without the Empire. If they follow the new Thrawn books as canon for the character he's only with the Empire for potential allies for his people against a bigger danger. It was the old Legends books where he kept fighting, and that Thrawn had different motives and by Disney's own making is no longer canon
The empire is gone. That means the potential ally is gone
Why wouldn't he just GO HOME? why would he stick around starting a new war?
*Thor, C'mon Bro...* 🤨
*"Trying to make sense of what makes no sense can render you senseless. Let it go."* - Sanjo Jendayi 🧐
Unfortunately that is what Star Wars has become, trying to make sense of the senseless. 🤯
*"NUFF SAID"™️*
To be fair ahsoka didn't count on morgan elsbeth's mercenaries and assassin droids stealing the map.After ahsoka recovered it from arcana.
@@dutchrjen point taken.
Hey Thor:
Could be that it be that Ahsoka did not destroy the map because she did know that Thrawn was in another galaxy until after the map was stolen, and therefore thought that simply destroying the map was not enough to stop Thrawn’s return. The people looking for him would still have a chance of finding him if he was still in the same galaxy, so maybe if that was the case it may safer to hunt down and capture kill Thrawn then to let him be and possibly find away back or be found by some other means.
I like to hear your thoughts on this
I meant to say she did not know Thrawn was in another galaxy until after the map was stolen
I think film makers of a particular mindset have become adverse to consequences. But if there are no consequences to be responsible for then there are no hard decisions to be made and it doesn’t matter what the hero does. It comes from a place where the writer has a very narcissistic world view.
At least to my memory, no where does it say “killing is not the Jedi way”. REVENGE is not the Jedi way, and that can imply cold blooded murder. But killing in general is not forbidden because the Jedi understood that a life might be taken in the pursuit of protecting someone or if it’s for the greater good. Killing isn’t a Jedi’s initial intention when fighting someone but they are well aware that killing your opponent is a highly potential outcome, again for the reasons I said above. And again, no where does it establish that a Jedi killing in general is forbidden.
Its sad that this is where we are at... Theres now more hrs of Star Wars content on the Disney end than on the Lucas end Clone Wars included...
Water is just too muddled at this point. I really think Star Wars has just taken a nose dive and its over. I dont see how you crawl out of the hole they've dug...
Its so bad, it feels like poison admitting but how could they ever repair all the damage they've done.
Also... Stormtrooper blasters have a stunning mode and Obi Wan could easily have taken the blaster from the first Trooper and then save (or not kill) a ton of lives.
He is very good with a blaster, as established when defeating Grievous and don't other occasions.
I love the video and your insights Thor! However, I’m not sure if I entirely agree about the argument against what Ahsoka did by not destroying the map. She too, like Sabine, promised Ezra that she would find him. So, I think that it makes sense that she and Sabine would both be eager to find him and would be very hesitant about destroying the only known link to his possible location. I think where the problem lies is that the show didn’t do a good job of showing Ahsoka’s connection to Ezra and WHY she too wouldn’t destroy the map.
I interpreted it as she originally wanted to fulfill her promise to Ezra and was willing to try to find him even though she knew it was risky until the map got stolen by Shin. That caused Ahsoka to realize how reckless she was and come to the realization that she should destroy it and asked Sabine if she could trust her to do the same.
Again, personally I think it makes sense for her not to destroy it but I think that should’ve been explored much deeper in the series. That’s just my take but maybe I missed something and perhaps there is a good reason as to why many people are saying Ahsoka’s decision was foolish :)
It still bothers me so much that Vader's voice isn't the one telling Obi Wan that last "I did"
The only explanation that makes sense is that they're writing these shows under extreme time pressure. There's no one to say "Hey, wait a minute, if that happens there's no story."
Yeah, we live in an era where feelings weigh more than reason. Our contemporary art, that includes TV-shows, reflect that.
All these retcons because of Obi-Wan... what was the point of old Ben Kenobi dueling Vader one more time to let himself be killed to become a Force Ghost, why did it have to be Vader that killed him instead of just dying on his own? Nothing makes sense anymore
Instead of the dumb McGuffin that is is the map, why not just make it that the Imperials are studying all they could with the whales and making a means to traverse the pathway? Instead of handing over the map, or having a map at all, why not have the imperials ask Sabine to help using her engineering prowess with the promise of seeing Ezra and their protection? Could be offered by Hoti early on instead of having her get stabbed so dumbly. Or maybe the separate her and Ahsoka early on and ask her then. You can have where Sabine helps and tries to make fail safe, but when they get to their destination, Thrawn makes sure to inspect it thoroughly to ensure she didn't do such. Relying on dumb plot devices that can be easily replaced for more relevant use of characters skills, knowledge, and ingenuity is just lazy...
“Well, he was trying to kill them. But his saber bounced off their armor.” I am just thinking “Jesus Christ!🤦🏻♂️” You are talking about a different aspect of how nonsense this stuff is. But just showing all the other stupid things they have done to this brand.