ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video, I challenge Rabbi Tovia Singer's interpretation of Psalm 22 and his assertion that it is solely about David and not Jesus. I present evidence that many Jewish rabbis throughout history have believed that the Psalm is indeed messianic, and I argue that Christians are not taking Psalm 22 out of context when they see it as pointing to Jesus as the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecy. By analyzing the linguistic and thematic parallels between Psalm 22 and the patriarchal covenant in Genesis, I demonstrate that the context of the other Psalms supports a Christian reading of the text. Ultimately, I contend that Rabbi Singer's claim that Psalm 22 is not Messianic is flawed and that the Psalm does indeed point towards Jesus as the promised Messiah.
Original video: • Does the 'Crucifixion ...
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Note: Keep the comments about the arguments and not the person. It is discouraging that I have to say this and I am truly thinking of abandoning response videos for this reason
I apologize Thank you.
I agree we shouldn't personally insult him but his methodology is terrible. The kinds of arguments he uses against the New Testament would also destroy the Old Testament. As Wittgenstein put it "an argument is not like a taxi cab, you cannot pay it off and get out when it has taken you only as far as you want to go". If Rabbi Singer keeps making these kinds of arguments he will wind up an atheist, or at least a deist. I don't know what his religious beliefs are, maybe he is one of those liberal theologian who is skeptical of all revealed religion, a Jewish John Spong or Hans Kung. If not, he should be careful about where his arguments lead.
Abandoning response videos because some people in your audience don’t like the people you respond to is kinda baffling.
I agree that people should be kind, merciful, and gracious, but Abusus non tollit usum.
Ad hominem attacks are the mark of an intellectual pissant.
Never argue from emotion 🙌🙏❤️
Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are so clearly about Jesus, that the only way you can deny the connection is because you don't want there to be one.
No. That is false. There are perfectly naturalistic, viable explanations for both of these texts.
I’d be more charitable in the case of Psalm 22. Taking a Psalm of deliverance from death as being exclusively about a man who was not, in fact, delivered from death(but rather handed over by divine Providence to death) is incredibly impetuous. Humility is key in all things, but especially in Biblical scholarship and opinion.
@@keatsiannightingale2025 psalm 22 has events that never have occured to David but occured to Jesus
Isaiah 53 blows my mind. I read it at my Bible Study last night.
@@amoschiasson6860 I suspect it "blew your mind" because the early Christians and Gospel writers deliberately, carefully fashioned their theological perspectives of Jesus's crucifixion on this scripture.
“That’s why I care about Christians because they’re reading Psalm 22 out of context…”
Like when Christ provided the context as he preached from the Cross, “Eloi, Eloi, Lama sabachthani”?
Who’s reading Psalm 22 out of context?
I wonder if "the Messiah, son of David" might be persecuted like Davd was???
I guess the world will never know!
If you go on this rabbi's TH-cam page.
More than half of his vids are about Jesus and Christians.
The thought of Jesus keeps his mind occupied. They keep him up at night
@@beelance8057 That’s great. Like Saul of Tarsus, one day he’ll see the light and then he’ll become one of the most insightful Christians of all because he also understands Judaism so deeply. After all, Christianity is Second Temple Judaism brought to fulfillment through God’s activity.
Its also important to not make a false dichotomy, its partially about David because He wrote it, many events in his life are typologies of the life of Christ (Anointed, persecuted etc.) but in its totality its only fullfilled in Christ.
The whole type/antitype concept helps this make so much sense. I totally agree.
Typologies occur ALL THE TIME in the Bible. One example is Revelation. Atheists love to say that Revelation "was actually written about the Roman Empire and Nero ☝️🤓" but that ain't the full story. Revelation predicts both the events of AD 50-70 (persecutions by Nero, the city of seven hills which is Rome, etc.) but it also predicts the end of the world and the Second Coming.
Other examples of typologies include (off the top of my head):
- Jonah stuck in the belly of the big fish for 3 days, rising on the 3rd day, similar to Christ's death and resurrection.
- Adam being tempted in the Garden of Eden by the serpent, then the New Adam (Christ) is tempted in the desert. One accepts the temptation, the Other refuses.
- The Ark of the Covenant contains God, then the New Ark of the Covenant (the Virgin Mary) contains God incarnate (Christ).
Good point, well made.
@@CzarLazar1389 How could Revelations predict an even in 70 AD, when Revelations was written in 95-96 AD (nearly 3 decades later)?
@@Imoonedu It's simple, it was not written in AD 95-96. This is where we get opinionated and argue but I would rather not.
I find it funny why someone would trust a biased "expert" from 2000 years later over Church Tradition directly from the Apostles and their disciples.
I read psalm 22 for the first time in my life a few weeks ago and was like, isn’t this about Jesus? Glad to know it wasn’t just me 😅
Psalm 22 was a popular scroll read during Jewish holidays. When the author of Mark wrote his Gospel 40 years after Jesus's death, he'd heard this scroll a hundred times.
It seems amazing and prophetic to us reading it now but Mark had access to all these scriptures and can set the scene and dialogue however he likes.
When I first read Psalm 22 I immediately saw Jesus Yeshua🙏
@@maxinedeleon4357 It's like reading Shakespeare and being amazed at how accurate his depiction of Julius Caesar was. He had access to several historians that he pulled from...as did the gospel writers.
@@ryanrevland4333 Cesar was a past event for Shakespeare so your argument doesn’t work
@metaldisciple Are you suggesting Jesus wasn't a past event for the Gospel writers? I think the analogy works well. Shakespeare had access to a biography of Julius Caesar. That's his primary source and he shaped a fictional narrative from it.
The Gospel writers had access to the scriptures. That's their primary source and they shaped a fictional narrative from it. Jesus's birth is borrowed from Moses. A King kills all the boys under two and the hero escapes to Egypt. His miracles are borrowed from Elisha. Both raise a child from the dead and feed multitudes with a few loaves. His crucifixion scene is borrowed from Psalm 22 right down to the dialogue!
The Dead Sea scrolls are a millennia older than the earliest Masoretic text. They show that psalm 22 actually DOES use the specific word pierced, and not mauled like a lion as the masoretic text reads. This proves the text was either mistranslated or intentional changed from pierced.
Verse six: “I am a worm not a man…” the word used for worm ‘tola’ is a specific type of worm, the scarlet worm which after giving birth to its young, emit a red dye, then sacrifice themselves as food for the offspring. The choice of words alone evokes imagery that only leads to Jesus.
John 6:53-58: So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your fathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever.”
WOW, mystery solved with JESUS! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO0000OOH FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!
@@InescapableRealityOfficial Go do a metzitzah b'peh, talmudist.
thx for the info: if anyone wants to search the by taxonomy: *coccus ilicus* is the name
Psalm 22. Here we find David in the greatest affliction. Hence the famous exclamation, which was afterward repeated by the Christian Savior in a similar situation: Eli, eli, lama sabachthani? My El, my El, why hast thou forsaken me? why dost not thou help me? why so far from the words of my roaring? Thus, David addressed the winter (El), but not for help, because, as he well knew, he might have cried both night and day, as he said he did, to the Elohim, who were far distant from him, without obtaining help until spring came - " thou hearest not." Hence, he prayed to Elohim prospectively, believing that when he could make them hear, help or summer would come. But while praising the Holy One of Israel (summer Sun), his mind suddenly reverted to his low condition, whence he exclaimed: "But I am a worm and not a man;" thus happily comparing his situation (that of the Sun in winter) to a worm in its chrysalid state during the winter. " He rolled on the Lord " (marginal reading), i.e., the Sun rolled through the heavens as we daily see it, and trusted that the Lord would at length bring him into the summer hemisphere.
"Thou art he that took me out of the womb (of winter), and didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts (shadi, the word so frequently translated Almighty). David, Christ, Ganymede (Joy-promoter), and many other Gods, were born at the winter solstice, where they were all, David among them, placed upon their mother’s lap. Hence David (vs. 10) says, "Thou art my God (my El) from my mother's belly" -mid-winter. Don't go off, for trouble is near, and there is none to help (vs. 11). Many strong bulls of Bashan have compassed me around. The dogs (Canis major and minor) have beset me (are come around opposite me): I am poured out like water, my strength is dried up, and I can count my bones (ribs). They part my garments among them, and cast lots (gamble, as the "bulls and bears" still do) upon my vesture (the crops).
But, O my Lord, O my strength, haste thee to help me! My only one, deliver me from the dog, save me from the Lion's mouth (Leo roars as a lion), for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns (the constellation Taurus). Then, Oh, then, will I praise thee in the midst of the congregation (the seven summer months), and show a fine crop! Yes, then will I praise thee, and the meek (the people in winter) shall eat and be satisfied - filled.
This is another passage, like Isaiah 53, that the Jews never read from. They come up with all kinds of reasonings for the text meaning David or the nation of Israel, when the context itself points to a future messianic figure. The One they have been promised since the fall of man
"This is another passage, like Isaiah 53, that the Jews never read from ..."
Well, that is just patently false.
@@DrKippDavis "patiently false" you say? That's actually true. Isaiah 53 is one of the most extreme examples of Christ in the Prophets. It is black and white, undeniable Moshiach. Psalm 22 no different in that respect to it being unavoidable of it being solely about the Christ. You go to any temple service, any Scripture reading, any rabbinical classes on the prophets. They skim it 100% of the time. Exposition of such passages are given by those who rely upon the babylonian talmud (not Scripture) and there hasnt been anything new, besides from those who get pressured publicly on these passages. To say Psalm 22 is David, or the Suffering Servant is Israel is asinine. They know it is, but in their hatred of their Promised One, they suppress the knowledge of Truth to believe a lie. They get it from those religious first century liars who hated the God they pretended to serve. Nowadays, the Jewish religion is secular humanism. They are under a curse they need to repent of and trust in Christ.
Also, liking ones own comment is disingenuous
@@joshhigdon4951 hey I can relate to when jew say these things. Honestly I don't even know when the interpretation of Isaiah came from. Something that is true though is that we must use the Hebrew bible to defend our position
@@aydenanderson6931 no doubt about that at all. I am a christian because of the Hebrew bible. The Messiah was promised from the Torah throughout the Prophets. The New Testament appealed to the Old Testament to prove that Jesus was Messiah. Spot on brother.
The way you express humor on this page is fantastic. Keep up the great work, we need more fun in Apologetics. 🎉
The fact that reading Psalms 22 brings me to tears is no coincidence.
Rabbi Tovia Singer said .... the end. It's like learning the Bible from Ahmed Deedat.
Tovia singer is the Jewish version of Zakir naik
@@davidstrelec2000 lol
@@davidstrelec2000 Not that surprised to be honest
What do Tovia and Zakir have in common? Both supports the Ebionites (heretical) over Nazarenes (orthodox).
@@captainquwa Your claim isn't evidence.
@@captainquwa The Jews believed it was Messianic long before Jesus was born, in fact, the vast majority of OT passages Christians regard as Messianic can be documented from pre-Christian Jewish sources to be Messianic, it was only after Christians started trying to convert Jews that SOME (but by no means all) Jews started denying that the OT promises a Messiah and that all the Messianic passages are Messianic at all, in fact, many Jewish commentators even today regard Psalm 22 as Messianic
God loves us so much he gave us his only begotten son. Jesus I’m crying out to you. Please hear my cries. I knew when I found Jesus my life wouldn’t be easy because I would have to give up my sinful life style and follow him. I’m a single mother struggling to make ends meet. Since covid I have been struggling to get back on my feet. I lost my job for declining the vaccine. I declined due to my pre existing health conditions, lupus and heart disease so now I’m having a hard time providing for my children. Both of my sons are autistic and non verbal. I’m overwhelmed. I started homeschooling them due to bullying and other issues they were facing in public school. I’m waitressing and I’m happy to be back working but I’m not making nearly enough to get by. I have nowhere to turn no family nor friends. I have been put down and mocked, over my situation. I’m so ashamed and so embarrassed so please be kind. Prayers are all I want. Every month I struggle trying to provide for my children I’m barely making it. But even through my struggles I keep faith. Praise Jesus! I have faith God will provide.
❤
And yet your so called “”all-powerful”” deity needs a blood sacrifice in order to “”forgive”” people because symbolism 🙄
@Hlord1109 This will sound terrible, but it is what it sounds like to non-believers: your God demands a human sacrifice. Is that accurate?
@Hlord1109 Ok, so let me ask you this: what died on the cross?
@Hlord1109 Please don't judge my question as dishonest. I am dead serious. Even if it was self-sacrifice, sacrifice to who? Who wanted or required this sacrifice? What was sacrificed? A man, a God, or both?
Jesus did what he did to break the curse he put on Adam and Eve after they sinned. The punishment for sin is death. GOD let us sacrifice animals to pay for our sins and came to earth and was born a man to break said curse. He never sinned so death couldn't hold him. The final sacrifice and our saviour. It's why we don't need to sacrifice animals today. That's a pretty cool GOD to do that if you ask me. People hated him then and today is no different. I for one am happy that GOD is who he is and not who we think he is. A loving and just GOD.
תודה רבה תבורך במשיח ישוע❤
ברוך שמש.
@@DrKippDavisלא הבנתי? מה אתה אומר?
אין לי מושג מה אתם אומרים
@@TestifyApologetics for me it translated as 'Thank you very much, bless you in Christ Jesus'
God bless you
@@TestifyApologetics 😂😂 תודה רבה על כל התוכן המעניין ישוע יברך אותך, thank you for all of the exclamation, God bless you, in Jesus Christ name,amen❤️
thanks again bro! your work is consistently building the kingdom of God!
btw: I read Ps 22 in the break and it was very edifying
Psalm 22 is my favorite Psalm
YOURE A FATHER OF 5!?!?! Wow, with how much effort you put into these videos thats really impressive.
Singer is lying and he knows it. He knows all too well that Hebrew has a prophetic perfect. That is a future prediction so certain as to be stated as already completed. Singer is well aware of this fact and deliberately neglects it to avoid the obvious conclusion.
Sadly, the wikipedia article on this supports the Jewish (anti-Christian) viewpoint.
@@Michael_the_Drunkard I never suggest Wikipedia as anything other than a good starting point.
Half the time they haven't understood the source they cite. Several times I have found the source just referencing back to the same wikipedia article.
On a number of ocassions the source is just bad.
That is just when it has sources, let alone when it references nothing
This is nonsense. How does one go about distinguishing a "prophetic perfect" verb from an otherwise ordinary perfect forn
@@DrKippDavis how does one tell one genre from another? Or the real thing from a forgery?
@@DrKippDavis A little easy thing called context.
I knew you were a Dad. That was obvious. But now I know you're a mega Dad! Respect+
This channel deserves 10x the subscribers at least. So good!
Lol, your cartoon looks just like him! 😄 good job on the artwork.
Stop letting people not in the faith tell you are wrong. Read the Bible and use your critical thinking skills and your faith. It’s about Jesus.
Thank You Jesus Christ for using Erik Manning to do your work.
Ancient rabbis would disagree with Singer on a number of his interpretations.
Ancient rabbis would not call Singer a jew
Obviously they would since ancient Rabbis disagreed with eachother on most things they weren't a monolith.
I heard this very message by Rabbi Tovia Singer a few days or weeks ago, and also another rabbi, and the common theme they made was "Christians don't read the whole Bible, only isaiah 53 and psalm 22 and other things they can misunderstand as applying to Jesus."
It's pretty disheartening... I've read the whole thing front cover to back at least 6x, plus a few extra studies in Job and Genesis and Revelation. Am i alone? Do other Christians only read in part? I'm pretty sure most of us have read it entirely at least a few times! I'm not bringing it up to brag, but to counter this ludicrous claim. I'm sure I'm not alone!!
When will God remove the veil and let them see?? It will be better for all of us and them when they do see.
Excellent video. I recommend your channel on the regular keep it up!
I can still recall the terror I felt the first time I read psalm 22. It confirmed to me the Bible in its entirety was God’s book since it transcended time. How do authors years apart write a concise message? Impossible
Another element that could be brought in is a lot of biblical prophecies have dual or multiple fulfillments. 2 Samuel 7 is a good example. In context it was being applied to Solomon, but it makes predictions Solomon fails to fulfill. However, putting it next to other Messianic predictions, we know that the Messiah was supposed to be a son of David. Once Jesus comes along, we see the full picture: Solomon failed to inherit an eternal kingdom due to his sin, but Jesus brought in the kingdom Solomon failed to.
I don't think this creates any probabilistic issues because God would have a reason to give prophecies with dual fulfillments because the fulfillment in Christ always escalates the prophecy and brings it to a higher degree of perfection. The portrait we get of Jesus is an amalgam of many OT figures, but all their successes are escalated and all their inadequacies are removed.
(To clarify, I'm not saying *no* biblical prophecies are single-fulfillment, though I don't think all of them are; many can't be, so in the end all I'm concerned to lay to rest is the worry that if Ps 22 is about David then Jesus is wrong to use it of himself or that it can't be prophetic).
Singer is a counter missionary so he starts from the position of "it's never about Jesus." That being said, starting with the premise including that "all scripture is godbreathed(inspired by God)..." Even if David himself intended to write a Psalm about his own troubles at the times, if God intends it to be prophetic or to be used as a parallel at a future time, then He can and does inspire the writing, which would include inspiring them to add "flavoring" and metaphors that would facilitate such.
Now Singer should also recall that a Jew would begin a section of scripture to cause an audience to bring the whole section to mind (like if one said to a Jewish audience Shema Israel, the crowd would recall Deuteronomy 6:4-6.) So, even if David only intended to write of his own problems, Jesus on the cross was calling to mind that whole Psalm, which at minimum paralleled the exact experience he was going through at the time to which people though he was afflicted by God, but the Psalm includes the deliverance of the afflicted one, which reinforced what he had just been teaching abiut having to suffer and rise again
Placid demeanour, excellent argumentation and all in good spirits. Well done, Erik.
Guys please make sure to pick up Dr Michael Brown's answering Jewish objections to Jesus volume set, a lot of countermissionary polemicists like Tovia Singer who refuses to debate Dr Brown since their last debate are answered there pretty succinctly also please no personal attacks on anyone, it only muddys our witness and disincentivises response videos due to an aversion to dog Pilling. Stay on topic and argue the points not the person.
good resource
@@TestifyApologetics Great video, Christians sometimes forget that we have tons of resources from great leaders who've already answered these recycled objections. Keep up the great work Erik. 👍
7:15 in my view, and I think for Christians writ large, this not an either/or scenario. Psalm 2 makes it pretty clear that God’s son is whoever is chosen to be the king of Israel. It was most probably a reference to David first, and then to Solomon, and so on until the end of the first temple period. So, it is quite possible for Christians to hold that Psalm 2 refers to both David and Jesus.
@@davethebrahman9870 I’m just talking about psalm 2 as I noted above. I’m not very convinced that psalm 22 is prophetic
@@davethebrahman9870 I’m suggesting that psalm 2 is applicable to Jesus given his claim (whether self-professed or later attributed) to the davidic line of kingship, whereas psalm 22 is not applicable due to its language being neither prophetic nor generic.
@@davethebrahman9870 Son of God is a royal title. It was bestowed upon David as conveyed in psalm 2. It was almost certainly bestowed upon Solomon as well. And it was either inherited or appropriated (depending on your perspective) by Jesus a millennium later.
@@davethebrahman9870My understanding is that Jesus “fulfills” the Psalm insofar as his sufferings echoed David’s. Since he is the Son of David in the Christian view, it is appropriate to draw such parallels. It doesn’t have to be predictive prophecy in the strictest sense to be fulfilled. In many details (some figurative and some literal) Jesus’ story does fit the Psalm perfectly, even though the original context is Davidic.
@@davethebrahman9870s, many Christians have construed this to be the sense in which Matthew and other NT authors use the words “fulfill” in reference to Jesus and the Tanakh. However, I have come to believe that the word “fulfill” can mean more than strictly “bring to pass” in a predictive and prophetic sense. So I would argue Jesus “fulfills” Psalm 22 by virtue of the literal and metaphorical aspects of the scenario of the Psalm in its original context. Jesus, like David, was surrounded by his enemies. Unlike David, whose enemies perhaps only metaphorically cast lots for his clothes, they LITERALLY did in his case. Thus Jesus literally went through what was figurative in David’s case, et. al.
Psalm 22. Here we find David in the greatest affliction. Hence the famous exclamation, which was afterward repeated by the Christian Savior in a similar situation: Eli, eli, lama sabachthani? My El, my El, why hast thou forsaken me? why dost not thou help me? why so far from the words of my roaring? Thus, David addressed the winter (El), but not for help, because, as he well knew, he might have cried both night and day, as he said he did, to the Elohim, who were far distant from him, without obtaining help until spring came - " thou hearest not." Hence, he prayed to Elohim prospectively, believing that when he could make them hear, help or summer would come. But while praising the Holy One of Israel (summer Sun), his mind suddenly reverted to his low condition, whence he exclaimed: "But I am a worm and not a man;" thus happily comparing his situation (that of the Sun in winter) to a worm in its chrysalid state during the winter. " He rolled on the Lord " (marginal reading), i.e., the Sun rolled through the heavens as we daily see it, and trusted that the Lord would at length bring him into the summer hemisphere.
"Thou art he that took me out of the womb (of winter), and didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts (shadi, the word so frequently translated Almighty). David, Christ, Ganymede (Joy-promoter), and many other Gods, were born at the winter solstice, where they were all, David among them, placed upon their mother’s lap. Hence David (vs. 10) says, "Thou art my God (my El) from my mother's belly" -mid-winter. Don't go off, for trouble is near, and there is none to help (vs. 11). Many strong bulls of Bashan have compassed me around. The dogs (Canis major and minor) have beset me (are come around opposite me): I am poured out like water, my strength is dried up, and I can count my bones (ribs). They part my garments among them, and cast lots (gamble, as the "bulls and bears" still do) upon my vesture (the crops).
But, O my Lord, O my strength, haste thee to help me! My only one, deliver me from the dog, save me from the Lion's mouth (Leo roars as a lion), for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns (the constellation Taurus). Then, Oh, then, will I praise thee in the midst of the congregation (the seven summer months), and show a fine crop! Yes, then will I praise thee, and the meek (the people in winter) shall eat and be satisfied - filled.
It’s heartbreaking that Jesus did all that he did for his own brethren like this rabbi and yet even 2000 years later they still don’t want to acknowledge Jesus as their messiah. Talk about being betrayed.
No. No. That is not heartbreaking. What it really heartbreaking is that Jesus didn't see it coming
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him-
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it! Not about jesus bruh! Its about Israel its self.
You almost don't need to make this video. The plain text argues for itself. Singer had to do a lot of mental gymnastics and self gas lighting to deny the connection between psalm 22 and Christ's passion. It's really hard to ignore the obvious parallels.
The Hebrew is NOT PIERCED.
SO God is talking to Himself . Does God have SCHIZOPHRENIA?
@@kennethbrownsher1264 The Hebrew does say pierced as confirmed by cross references in Isaiah 53:5 and Zechariah 12:10. The greek Septuagint also preserves this translation even though it was written over a hundred years before Jesus. Also the dead sea scrolls confirm this reading as well. I'm sorry, but that argument has been debunked
@@kennethbrownsher1264 God the Father is not talking to Himself. You do not understand the Trinity as evidenced by your inability to accurately represent it
@@lyongreene8241 NOWHERE IS THERE A TRINITY. EVEN IN THE NT , THE FAMOUS JOHANINE COMMA IS A KNOWN LATER ADDITION. STOP THIS GRECO ROMAN PAGANISM
Awesome video brother. I have no doubt you will grow in many subscribers in future. Best apologist channel imo
Enemies for the gospels sake but beloved for our Father's sake.....
Please make more vids on Tovia Singer bro please ❤️
But honestly, who actually cares about the Rabbis opinions? He or his opinions are not important! 🤷🏻♀️
It wouldn't be the first time the Jews misinterpreted scripture. In Jesus' day, they thought the Messiah would free them from Rome. If that were so, then the messiah was Alaric, the Visigoth King. Or perhaps they thought that the Messiah would restore Israel as a nation. But that didn't happen until 1948, and that wasn't by just one person.
Thank you for the video response to Tovia and please continue to respond to his videos. Unfortunately Tovia is a very arogant man that would rather bend the Scriptures than recognize that the Old Testament does indeed references a suffering Messiah.
History repeats so it can be many, our generation it’s the bride who is the key of David having to be the suffering servant for 40 years
C'mon guys, Rabbi Singer said it himself, he is only saying all this because he doesn't want Christians to delude themselves. What? You don't believe him?
Hahaha 😂😂😂 And the only deluded one is Rabbi Singer.
@@sabhishek9289 pretty sure the commenter was being sarcastic
@@aydenanderson6931 Yeah I agree that he was probably joking and I was laughing at his joke.
In the Septuagint (LXX), it is also written that Psalm 22 is "for the end":
Psalms 22:1 (LXX): For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm by David. O God, my God, pay close attention to me; for why did You abandon me? [Matt 27:46; Mark 15:34]
“They’re not reading Pslam 21”
Me, a Christian, having read every single one of the Psalms a zillion times: 🤔🤔🤔
I would like to ask Singer whether he knows what affection and empathy are, and how they affect our wording (Gen 2:23,24) Also, should we read David's him/his in verse 24 as me/my? If we should not, who is he? If we should, could we read also "me" as "he" in other places of the Psalm?
As a jew, he can never see the light, creatures ofdarkness, synagogue of satan.
Great work!
Matt 11:25 - At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Great video, Erik! 🩷
I get so irritated with Singer. He is either completely ignorant of what his own ancient writings say, or he is deliberately deceptive.
Hope this isn't too personal, but seriously, the Jewish commentaries contradict him over and over again.
Psalms 22 has nothing to do with David! None of that happened to David! I Peter 1:10-12 tells us that it’s the spirit of Jesus Christ in them that spoke through the prophets announcing Christ’s suffering and glory. The other psalms he’s talking about have nothing to do with Jesus or 22 and idk who that guy was but those golden candles and red tables are terrible decor
critics never respond to our whole videos even as we go through their whole videos thank you for your work.
we are not here to challenge tovia check the scriptures if you want to present evidence that's are true
Our church services are highly liturgical? I think Tovia thinks everybody is a Catholic.
Love the new intro !
Let go to the lords prayer matt 6:9 and luke 11 see that the Father forgive you if you forgive others and what atonement are we talking about here and defiantly does not comes from 2 cor 5:21 God creates and put before you life & death, good & evil, blessings and cursing but you must choose and this is not consistence with paul's teachings
Jeremiah 30:1-10
Hosea 3:5
Enough Said
What would you say about all of the data within Psalm 22 that simply does not fit with Jesus of Nazareth? For example…
-The psalmist didn’t understand why God was forsaking him (v.1).
-Jesus knew exactly why God was forsaking him during the crucifixion and was, according to your view, quoting verse 1 to invoke the entire chapter.
-The psalmist (who was not God) begged Him to save his life (v.1, 19-21).
-Jesus was given authority over when to lose and regain his life. (John 10:18).
-The psalmist sought God’s help over an extended period without response (v.2).
-When Jesus agonized in the Garden of Gethsemane, God responded by sending an angel to minister to him (Luke 22:43).
-The psalmist was scorned by everyone and despised by “the people” (v.6).
-Jesus was wildly popular throughout Palestine (Mark 4:25), he had at least 72 disciples (Luke 10:1) and was hailed as a king by crowds in Jerusalem the same week he was crucified (Matt 21:8-11).
-The psalmist had no-one to help him (v.11).
-Jesus had twelve legions of angels at his disposal, but he declined to use them (Matt 26:53).
-The psalmist was surrounded by enemies (v.12-13).
-Jesus could escape his enemies whenever he wished (Luke 4:30, John 8:59) because, once again, no-one had the authority to take Jesus’ life without his say so.
-The psalmist’s bones were on display, either from sickness or malnutrition (v.17).
-Jesus’ body was removed from the cross before that amount of decay could occur (Matt 27:57-60).
So although I would agree Psalm 22 contains a number of verses that draw interesting parallels to Jesus (like v.7-8, 12-13, 16, 18), there are just as many verses that go against such parallels. Ultimately, the crucial difference is that Jesus was in trouble by choice, while the Psalmist was not...which is why, in my opinion, Psalm 22 is not about Jesus.
Jesus was not a hypocrite so not pretending to be a man. He had to face the cross as a man and not as God. He didn't cheat but had to take my place for real on the cross.
The same when Jesus wept I would guess Jesus had to temporary veil the knowledge he would raise Lazarus from the dead so he would feel the lost of a love one like we do.
The same Jesus must have veil knowledge in order to learn to walk. talk and study the scripture exactly like we would. Otherwise Jesus would be only pretending to be a man.
@@smidlee7747 Well, I guess it would depend on your understanding of the incarnation of Jesus. My post was meant more for Testify and those who hold to the hypostatic union (the doctrine that Jesus was/is fully God and fully man).
@@Number0neSon I agree Jesus was fully man and fully God. I see passage where Jesus was fully man "Jesus wept" and Jesus was fully God - Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.
@@smidlee7747 I understand. There's also places like Luke 2:52 where Jesus "grew" in wisdom, so at times he shared certain limitations that we all have. But the scriptures also teach that the Father gave Jesus authority over his life, that no one could take it from him and he would lay it down voluntarily (John 10:17-18).
So during the Passion, Jesus could have called on legions of angels to help him (Matt 26:53) but he chose not to. He could have stopped the crucifixion, but he chose not to...he had the authority to lay down his life and to take it up again...which is why Jesus does not resemble the psalmist desperately crying out for help in Psalm 22.
@@Number0neSon I disagree since Jesus was fully man. Everything you described above is Jesus as fully God.
It's important to see that Jesus had absolute power yet used that power to take our place and die on the cross for our sins. Jesus was not corrupted by power like men are. We like to take the easy path when we have a lot of power. Satan the whole time was trying to get Jesus to take the easy path.
Muslims mock Jesus and claim their Allah is like the President of the United State who can pardon someone's crime without costing them anything and without fulfilling the law.
Psalms 22 is definitely about david in the first person. Context matters! This is not a future vision of a suffering messiah or what's to come.
Home Content Index Books of the Bible Psalms Why have you forsaken me
Why does the psalmist ask, “Why have you forsaken me” (Psalm 22:1)?
Psalm 22 is classified as a “prayer for help” composed by King David. As with many other such prayers in the Psalms (see Psalm 2:1; 10:1; 13:1-2; 52:1; 74:1), it begins with an anguished cry and hopeless complaint, posed as an appeal to God for help: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish? My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, but I find no rest” (Psalm 22:1-2).
David cries out to God for help but feels forsaken and in deep agony because God does not answer him. The double use of questions is a poetic tool that expresses the psalmist’s utter hopelessness and despair. David cannot comprehend why God has abandoned him. He is suffering both physically (Psalm 22:14-15) and socially (verses 6-8). Most disturbing to him is his apparent abandonment by God. David’s lifelong relationship with God appears to be broken.
Yet even in his desolation, David prays, “My God, my God,” acknowledging his faith in God and dependence on Him, despite the Lord’s perceived distance and silence. Later, David declares outright his trust in the Lord: “Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the one Israel praises. In you our ancestors put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were saved; in you they trusted and were not put to shame” (Psalm 22:3-5; see also verses 9-10). David knows that God never forsakes His people (verses 22-24).
Over the centuries, scholars have noted the psalm’s intense tone, raising the possibility that it applied not just to one instance of suffering in David’s life but was meant to encompass all the abuses he suffered under King Saul. While Psalm 22 was undoubtedly a personal petition for help by David, it also served as a congregational prayer during corporate worship of the whole community.
The question, “Why have you forsaken me?” was meant to arouse interest in listeners, who would have wanted to know how the petition was answered. The psalm’s language was designed to give individuals a model for praying in times of extreme suffering and need. Like so many other psalms, it movingly expresses the common emotional experience of people who feel alone and afflicted.
Christ is King
Though this Psalm foreshadows Christ it doesn’t men that it’s only about Christ, it’s about David’s struggle as well. I do agree there is a bunch of people that misinterpret scripture because they only read part of it or don’t read the context of the scripture or they just study it in plain English; I study the word mainly in English and Spanish though I prefer Spanish because certain words in English are singular in meaning while in Spanish an example love is very different depending what word is used, and then I cross reference to Hebrew or Greek to see if the meaning is different from English as well, a example people use the verse of the anointing breaking the yoke, the word anointing there is referring to fat, in no way shape or form is it talking about God spirit, contrary it’s speaking about Israel becoming strong enough to break off the oppression of the Syrians. People will take that 1 verse and apply it in a misused way because they didn’t read the full chapter
Nearly all OT prophecy has a "now and not-yet" aspect. Doubtless, David wrote the description to mourn his own turmoil, but also prophesied his descendent: Jesus.
What argument or evidence is there for the "not yet" aspect of prophecies that addressed issues relevant to the prophet and the audience he was delivering his message to? What evidence is there that he thought his words would apply to situations for which he knew nothing hundreds, if not thousands of years later?
To me, it sounds like a rationalization of unfulfilled prophecy (e.g. false prophecy) or retrospective interpretation to explain current phenomenon. If prophecies don't have a limited and targeted meaning, can't they, over time, be interpreted by somebody to apply to anything?
Oh look someone else already commented about how "already not yet" makes prophecy impossible to falsify
Theres a lot of this involved in patching up the failed escsthological statements in the new and old testaments
@@truncated7644" What evidence is there that he thought his words would apply to situations for which he knew nothing hundreds, if not thousands of years later?" What do King David's thoughts have to do with anything? Prophecy is inspired by the Holy Spirit, it does not come purely from the mind of the ones doing the prophesying.
@@Greyz174 Prophecy is not about predicting the future. Prophecy, in its fullest extent, is proclaiming God's word. A prophecy about a future event is not so much about enabling us to predict what will happen as it is being able to look back after the event and say "yes, God was in charge". Very, very few prophecies (but not none) say "after so many days or weeks or years thus and such will happen." More often, it is "this will happen, when God pleases - wait for it." In the case of Psalm 22, we look back from the Crucifixion and say "David nailed it". Look at all of the prophecies in Isaiah; same thing.
@@paulblase3955 its indistinguishable from seeing faces in the clouds unless its rigorous
Its also totally fine for the word to be proclaimed non rigorously by the spirit but then it cant be used in apologetics when youre showing people evidence that the book must be of supernatural origin. If the point of prophecy was never supposed to be positive evidence for non believers or something that should cause them to change their views, thats totally ok but i do want to be on the same page about that
Yes, no other jews who know anything about Psalm would ever think even for a second that it is about Jesus. You know why? Because it’s not.
Great information. There's plenty to refute Tovia Singer. I would dare to say a lifetimes worth. You should drop by his channel and drop some fact bombs on the comments. Great job sir.
Obviously every Bible passage was written for a reason. As Heiser said, the writer's mind didn't go blank and just write plain prophecy.
However, it's clear that even the figurative or hyperbolic/poetic parts at the time of writing were FULLY, ACTUALLY embodied only in Christ. This is the case for most prophecy, in light of types and antitypes. All of it converges absolutely in Jesus.
What's glorious about Psalm 22 is that the very success of Christianity and historically undeniable crucifixion are all obvious fulfillments of it. Same goes for Jonah, Isaiah and others.
Judaism minimises anything Messianic. In fact, it almost seems like it's entirely unwelcome when it comes to hermeneutics. Talmudic Judaism's take on Isaiah 53 is probably the best example of this i.e., it's not about an individual.
Were David’s clothes divided and gambled for (Psalm 22:18)? Then it’s not about him. How could it be about David? If ancient Jewish scholars consider the text prophetic, then it must be about Jesus!
More good work. It seems that most critical scholars tend to do whatever mental gymnastics it takes to get where they want to land. I feel like it takes a lot more manipulation of the text and mental gymnastics to get to a NON-Messianic conclusion of Psalm 22. If you have to make that much effort to get to a conclusion, it seems there is likely a flaw in the initial premise.
There is no mental gymnastics. It's only a messianic psalm from the point of view of the new testament when the writers came to understand that the messiah had to suffer. In the context of the Hebrew bible there is nothing messianic in it.. e.g it says nothing about a future king.
@@osr4152 So, your criteria is that it can only be Messianic if it basically duplicates all themes and features of the Messianic concept?
@@qb101 my point is, no mental gymnastics are involved to say it's not messianic when there are no traditional messianic themes!
Before Jesus no one would have said this was a messianic psalm. If Christians want to say it is messianic with hindsight that is fine but understand why Jews think differently
@@osr4152 There are so many flaws in this comment I hardly know where to begin. Claims of "no one" is just hyperbole and you are trying to bolster your statement by sounding smug. "No traditional themes" is not what anybody is talking about. They are stating it is, in retrospect, clearly messianic. They are talking about the facts of the basis for the Psalm, not what specific individuals might have thought at the time. Nowhere in the video is it stated or claimed that this was some kind of majority interpretation prior to the first century A.D. You're trying to red herring the argument, but it's trash. Stick to the topic at hand.
@@qb101 ok so we agree that it is only messianic in retrospect and that it was never intended as a messianic prophecy by the original author or understood as prophetic by readers prior to the arrival of christianity.
Christians had come to believe that Jesus was a suffering messiah, so they took passages about people and Israel suffering and said these are prophecies about Jesus.
In the same way if Jesus had been a warlord they would have taken passages about old testament warriors and said these are about Jesus ignoring the suffering ones.
It certainly sounds like psalm 22 is referring to Jesus with garments being divided up etc? But it doesn't take a genius to consider that as Mark was writing his account he is trying to show that Jesus is fulfilling the psalm, so some of the details he includes are questionable historically. Do we know that the soldiers divided up Jesus' clothes or was that just made up by Mark as it fits the psalm?
Is it me or does the Rabbi look like Tim Curry?
So he either prophesied it intentionally
Or he prophesied it unintentionally
Either way it’s accurate… I don’t see how this guys argument changes how spot on the description was, weather it was on accident or not the psalm was still correct!
If I'm not mistaken the ordering of the Psalms was not done until much later than they were written, so for Rabbi Singer to say that Pslam 22 should be read in light of Psalm 23, as if Psalm 23 were a continuation of Pslam 22, is kind of silly. They're not chapters in that sense, as they were written sperately and compiled later. Yes, certainly the theological content of different Pslams should be read to qualify and compliment one another, and be read in harmony, but Pslam 23 can tell us nothing of whether or not the first-person speaker in Pslam 22 is intended to be David, a future messiah (i.e. Christ), or both.
Tovia Singer does not have the Ruach Ha Kodesh, he needs the wisdom that comes from above. The Eternal Spirit of YHWH brings Truth to those who will accept it. Its foundation is always the Holy Scriptures.
this was written all in the past tense
Not according to Rashi Rashi on Psalm 22 why have You forsaken me? They are destined to go into exile, and David recited this prayer for the future.
@@springtown24 Rashi's commentary clearly states its about a lion and not about "piercing". He also clearly states its past tense, so stop trusting christian missionaries.
@@ts8960 Tehellim 22 ( from The Orthodox Jewish Bible)
16 (17) For kelavim have surrounded me; the Adat Mere’im (congregation of evil men) have enclosed me; ka’aru yadai v’ragelai (they pierced my hands and my feet; see Isa 53:5; Zech 12:10 and medieval Hebrew Scripture manuscripts as well as the Targum HaShivim).
I will only trust what is written in the text. You are basing your argument on a single letter, a vav or a yod which has a bearing on the interpretation. The letters are similar and can be confused especially if the scroll is beginning to fade and the letters could be unclear.
You may like to check out Peter flint on psalm 22 verse 16, as he personally held the very scroll in his hands and examined the Hebrew text himself. His finding was that the translation, “they pierced my hands and feet is correct”, now even Rashi did not have that privilege and many of your Rabbis are yet to view them.
Besides how does like a lion even make sense without a verb to describe what the lion is doing? The Rabbis have had to add words that are not there to make their preferred translation work.
שקוראים את המזמורים כ״א וכ״ג את ההקשר בעיברית אין לי יותר ברור שזה מדבר על ישוע
עוד דבר- כתוב סוף המזמור כ״ג
"תַּעֲרֹךְ לְפָנַי שֻׁלְחָן נֶגֶד צֹרְרָי דִּשַּׁנְתָּ בַשֶּׁמֶן רֹאשִׁי כֹּוסִי רְוָיָה׃" (תהלים כג 5)
ולי זה מחבר לפסוק אחר בספר תהילים
"אָהַבְתָּ צֶּדֶק וַתִּשְׂנָא רֶשַׁע עַל־כֵּן מְשָׁחֲךָ אֱלֹהִים אֱלֹהֶיךָ שֶׁמֶן שָׂשֹׂון מֵחֲבֵרֶיךָ׃" (תהלים מה 8)
שם המלך הוא אלוהים!!!
וגם שם אלוהים מושך את המלך הזה וזה מזכיר עוד פסוק מישעיהו
"רוּחַ אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה עָלָי *יַעַן מָשַׁח יהוה אֹתִי* לְבַשֵּׂר עֲנָוִים שְׁלָחַנִי לַחֲבֹשׁ לְנִשְׁבְּרֵי־לֵב לִקְרֹא לִשְׁבוּיִם דְּרֹור וְלַאֲסוּרִים פְּקַח־קֹוחַ׃" (ישעיה סא 1)
והרוח של אלוהים שעליו שנשלחה איתו זה המשיח האלוהי שמוזכר בפרק מ״ח
"14 הִקָּבְצוּ כֻלְּכֶם וּשֲׁמָעוּ מִי בָהֶם הִגִּיד אֶת־אֵלֶּה יהוה אֲהֵבֹו יַעֲשֶׂה חֶפְצֹו בְּבָבֶל וּזְרֹעֹו כַּשְׂדִּים׃ 15 אֲנִי אֲנִי דִּבַּרְתִּי אַף־קְרָאתִיו הֲבִיאֹתִיו וְהִצְלִיחַ דַּרְכֹּו׃ 16 קִרְבוּ אֵלַי שִׁמְעוּ־זֹאת לֹא מֵרֹאשׁ בַּסֵּתֶר דִּבַּרְתִּי מֵעֵת הֱיֹותָהּ שָׁם אָנִי וְעַתָּה *אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה שְׁלָחַנִי וְרוּחֹו*׃ פ" (ישעיה מח)
הכול קשור בתנ״ך ככול שבודקים לעומק רואים שישוע הוא המשיח האלוהי שנבאו עליו כולם והעידו עליו ועדותם נאמנה,
ישוע הוא המשיח לעולמים אמן, תחפשו ואתם תמצאו אותו כי עליו העידו כולם❤️
The Israelites are still waiting for the messiah it will not be easy to convince them that Jesus is the Christ even though all the historic evidence points to him being the almighty God revealed in the flesh
[the Word of God is Elohim]:
Compare John 1: 1-5 and Genesis 1: 1-5
John 1
Names of God Bible
The Word Becomes Human
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.
3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.
4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.
5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it.
Genesis 1
Names of God Bible
The Creation
1 In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth.
2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep water. The Ruach Elohim was hovering over the water.
3 Then Elohim said, “Let there be light!” So there was light. 4 Elohim saw the light was good. So Elohim separated the light from the darkness. 5 Elohim named the light day, and the darkness he named night. There was evening, then morning-the first day.
Zechariah 6:9 clearly puts the name of the Branch, as YESHUA the son of Jozadak, or Jesus sons of Joseph. Then by the context of the cotinuing passages, YESHUA has the Crown of Silver and Gold , and he is also High Priest wearing the Turban with the Blue Diamond or Diadem. Then it says in Zechariah 12 that upon the House of David, they will look upon ME ( God speaking in the first person tense) who they have pierced". This only makes sense in the harmony of title of God to be King and Priest, "YESHUA". and that the Jews rejected the true GOD , and so they had pierced God by doing this to the Priestly King and Messiah. You cannot begin with YESHUA and then say they mourn for David, it makes no sense. Tovia Singer has no authority of God, and has never eaten the Korban Passover, thus he is not Israel, , he is a Magician.
Please pray for Rabbi Singer!
He’s a reprobate do you realize that ?
@ntk mw As was I before Christ saved, forgave, and redeemed me. There is no one He won't save who confesses their sin, earnestly repents therof, and trusts in Him. So pray that Rabbi Singer will come to his senses, like the prodigal son, and come to know the Son of the Living God.
he's a reprobate .. if so wouldn't that be a good reason to pray for someone? good grief.
@@joshuamyers7510 you really don’t understand what the word reprobate means do you? Reprobates have a seared conscience, they can never be saved
Edit; yeah never mind you really are a reprobate. Repentance of sin isn’t needed to be saved.
@@ntkmw8058 Brother, the whole message of the Gospel is to bring sinners to the knowledge of Christ. You say "He's a reprobate do you realise that" ? So what, Christ spoke to tax collectors and prostitute, did he say, oh your a prostitute so you can't be around me or hear my message. The opposite actually that is why we should pray for him. You make yourself sound like the holiest person on earth by saying he is a reprobate and I know your not. If you use that reasoning as a means to not pray for him, you literally don't understand the gospel.
Jesus died on the cross for all man, not just for the Jews. And I think that’s where the Jewish make their biggest mistake.
The perfect is an aspect, not a tense, and aspect can be applied to any point in time. By the way, even tenses can change their usual time reference, see "I'm going there tomorrow".
Tovia is correct
Interesting analysis coming from one who’s own ancestors did not recognize their Messiah when he was in front of of them.
I haven't watched the whole of Tovia Singer's video myself, so maybe he addressed this, but has he ever read the Gospel accounts to see why Christians always bring up Psalm 22?
"It's highly liturgical"
Me, a Baptist minister: "oh?"
haha I thought that too as a Pentecostal.
I hope in the future you'll participate more completely in the religion God left us. Worshipping with most of the Holy Book, a bit of the traditions and barely any liturgy is not what God wants from us, it's a partial rejection of His gifts
@@TestifyApologetics Jesus is the reincarnation of king David.
@@Danny_Simon This is a strange comment. Do you mean literaly? As that's nonsense. David is David. Jesus is Jesus. Nowhere are they made out to be the ~same~ person.
If you mean a type or shadow, a precursor to Christ, then yes, but to say He's the "reincarnation" of David is unhelpful language.
@@LockeTheAuthentic Yeah, you took most of the book, a bit of the tradition and scraps of liturgy. Not what God wants
Are you in any way related to the guy that runs Inspiring Philosophy? Just curious.😊
I mean, we know each other and have collaborated a few times. I'd consider him a friend.
Yeah, like the rabbis of today or the past have been able to predict anything. They have a terrible track record.
It’s a common pattern that ancient or medieval Jewish scholars admit the messianic significance of many Old Testament passages while modern day biblical critics including modern day Jewish scholars refute messianic significance. Ironically, they posit that their own book can’t be as intricate and beautiful in its connections in the same breath because they always say all those passages have already occurred and there’s nothing interesting about them outside of their context. The prophecies they deny about the rejection of their Messiah and our blessed Lord ironically are fulfilled by their continual rejection of the Christ. Like dude, he literally came to deliver you people from your sinful ways first before anyone else, and you’re still rejecting him.
I love how Tovia Singer refutes the messianic message of psalm 22 by calling it “magic”. Bordering on blasphemy even in his own worldview
Glad to be here therefore the Lord see's not just in me also you.
The psalms of David are not just about him lamenting on his struggles as the Jews like to assert. Most of them were/are prophecy about the Messiah and the one that came after the Messiah.
The psalms are about David himself. Re Read it. Nothing about some future messiah
King Yeshua is all over the scriptures from Genesis through Revelation all point to our glorious Messiah!
The Hebrew scholars you quoted were all way after Jesus. How is it possible for a Jewish scholar to be writting that while living in the context of a Christian culture, and not go "uuuuuuhm, wait a minute......"? Truly, they will look and look and not see, and the will listen and listen but not hear.
Dad of five? Hallelujah!
Five more apologists incoming :)
I hate to break it to the distinguished Rabbi, but King David is about Jesus. He's a Messianic prophecy in himself.
Psalm 22 only first half is the Jesus, and Isaiah 53 is not Jesus. You don't over estimate of God
Appreciate your point about the gentile conversion following Messiahs suffering. The same procession is seen in the Servant Songs. Because of the suffering described in chap 53, Isaiah 49:6 KJV
[6] And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
As Alfred Edersheim put it…whatever else one may say about Jesus, He certainly has become the light to the Gentiles.
It's not the only one, that is not.
There are many more in psalm but also in the whole bible.
He have fixed himself every place, where there is every thing about Most high, becouse he wants to be like Most High and to be praised.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This clearly decribes the non-believing Jews fate. Being condemned means you get sent to hell for eternity. Only the Messionic Jews will be saved from hell.
That was a pretty low hanging clip of Tovia. He goes into much stronger arguments in other videos on why psalm 22 cannot be about Jesus.
Lets review some examples
The first big problem here is that KJV translates it as “pierced my hands and my feet” when it says “like a lion theyre at my hands and my feet”, so Christians must argue that the spelling of the word here was corrupted by jews and that all the hebrew bibles that jews have at their homes are corrupted - this argument is inline with the muslim perspective and this undermines christianity as well.
All the manuscripts are also in agreement, none of them spell the word you're looking for, they are all mispellings or spellings of the word lion.
So how can we be sure that it means lion and not pierced?
In this chapter David is wailing over the fact that he is always facing such opposition, these are his heartfelt cries to God.
Let us see in other verses surrounding this one, what type of language David uses to describe these adversaries and if it more closely aligns to the christian or jewish renderings of this verse.
Psalm 22:13 KJV
"They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion."
Here we find something interesting, only 3 verses prior we see that David calls his opponents a lion. Lets see if this is a common theme.
Psalm 22:20-21 KJV
“Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. (wild oxen)”
It seems only 4 passages after our verse in question, we find that David uses the exact same animalistic metaphors he used in verse 16. He likens the oppressors again to a dog , a lion, and a ox, which is also a metaphor used in verse 22:12.
So over and over again in the very same chapter we see that David is using these wild ravenous animals as metaphors for the opponents that antagonize him.
This is in no way a prophecy, but rather the desperate cries of a holy man afflicted by oppressors who sought to harm him. Just take a step back for a minute and consider that this isnt even talking about Jesus at all, thats just the problem of viewing it through a christian lens, David is not about his future son.
But wait there is more. This is far from the only chapter in psalms where David utilizes the metaphor of a lion to describe his persecutors, and what is most surprising is that these other instances are always translated properly:
Psalm 7:1-2 KJV
“O Lord my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver.”
Psalm 10:9 KJV
"9 He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net."
please see also:
Psalm 17:11-12 KJV,
Psalm 35:17 KJV,
Psalm 57:4 KJV,
Psalm 58:6 KJV...
its abundantly clear that over and over throughout psalms David is describing himself as being attacked and ensnared by oppressors who are analogized with animalistic metaphors, and the utilization of lions time and time again stands as contextual proof that the jewish translation stands as the more legitimate.
- But wait it gets worst. Even if the word you are looking for "Karuu" was indeed used here, it still doesn't mean what you think it means
- The Gospels never quote this verse as fulfilled prophecies
- Anyone who reads it instead of watching your video will see that it's clearly David talking about himself and not a future messiah.
- All and all a very big mess to attempt to interpolate jesus in here, which proves desperation and manipulation on the christian side.
and fyi all the rabbis you quote still reject jesus. Rashi clearly states his commentary that this is about a lion, not about some sort of piercing. If you are suddenly going to listen to rabbis, then how about listen to what 99% of rabbis are telling you?
How can you get Jesus's crucifixion from these verses?!A simple and easy to understand text.what extreme you go to interpret it about future event