The missile "jumping" before firing off is called cold launching. You guessed correctly, the missiles are launched through gas (the gas isn't actually in the missiles, it's through a gas chamber below the missile itself.) One of the benefits of cold launching over hot launching (the rocket engine activating within the vertical launch tube) is in the event of a launch and the missile engine malfunctions, they can eject the missile to avoid it exploding inside.
Another benefit of cold launching is having a smaller effect on the radar equipment. Hot launching that close to the radar reciever can mess with with the incoming data and possibly lose the lock if the missile is slaved to the vehicle's radar
Not to mention the fact that an object at rest tends to stay at rest. The most inefficient part of any rocket launch is imparting that initial velocity, so if the rocket's already moving when the engine ignites, it wastes less propellant.
I dont think itd be too different, the initial momentum is upward, the rocket motor would still need to use as much energy to get it into motion, especially considering the TOR missile weight
And I should note that this is a fairly popular launch method in Russian missile systems. It is used in most anti-air missiles, in ICBMs, in different sea-based missiles and so on.
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.
An advantage to a VLS (vertical launch) system like is is that you can fire multiple missiles rapidly in multiple directions without the turret needing to move. This makes sense when you understand that a big part of Tor's mission is to shoot down waves of inbound cruise missiles.
“The missile knows where it is because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is, the system commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. The position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.”
Most systems like this use a set of thrusters in a cap on the nose to orient the missile before firing the main motor. You can actually see them fire in real-life videos of systems like this.
It's a good guess, the main thing you forgot to account for is that at speeds that low with the weight it has, it probably wouldn't have enough airspeed over the fins to orient it until the motor fires
It's meant to shoot down multiple targets at the same time which is why it has the launch system. It means it can just pop a missile and have the tiny rocket shove it in the right direction without turning the turret.
1:34 this is for firing from closed positions, when surrouded by trees, or rocks or buildings. Rescently there is a video appeared where "Pancyr" shoots at multiple targets from closed positions and one of rockets just hits near building just because of this reason - tilted missile launcher. Also Tor's missiles are much heavier, so this vertical lounching position is it's key feauture.
As dcs pilot and study of missile evasion i can tell you can hit the dive to bamboozle missile dive into the ground killing itself. Second tactic is to notch which is pointing your wing at the threat (you know when you're 90° degrees to threat site from RWR) 3rd tactic is weaving which happens turning side to side as you're chaffing. Tactic for those fighters or players that doesn't have chaff against SAMs like Tor is to go back dive to treetop level and weave but do not turn hard or you'll lose speed and become vulnerable to missile. TOR missiles can be independent which means even it's host lose lock on you the missile itself sees you but if you do many evasive actions you will likely break it's lock because it's too much for it or it self destruct due to it's low energy it had to bleed because it tries always get ahead of you.
I remember the Tor-M1 was also in the original MW2 during “Contingency” mission, it’s the one that shoots down the 1st Predator drone that you use in the mission when you reach the top of a hill overlooking a village
1:45 its launches it vertical becuse the soviet wanted to have a Sam system that cann engage targets 90 degree over it the search radar even looks up you cann see the small extention on the radar angled upwards so you cann scan for targets above you and shoot them
i think in addition to what others have said about firing multiple rockets at once at different targets, the VLS allows it to be better hidden or camouflaged say if in a clearing in the woods or in a courtyard in a clump of buildings in a small town, if working in tandem with separate radar entities it can fire without needing a direct line of sight without giving away where it launched from .
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
5:27 The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't, by subtracting where it is, from where it isn't, or where it isn't, from where it is, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance sub-system uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is, to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position where it was, is now the position that it isn't. In the event of the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has required a variation. The variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too, may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computance scenario works as follows: Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is, however it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subracts where it should be, from where it wasn't, or vice versa. By differentiating this from the algebraic sum og where it shouldn't be, and where it was. It is able to obtain a deviation, and a variation, which is called "air"
On the strategy to evade the missile, there's a certain turret in Space Engineers iirc, that fires into the predicted future position of a ship based on it's vectors movement. The way it's usually avoided is with a screewdriver/vortex type of forward movement, which often results in complete and continous missing of the target. The danger of this method is if the object under our control moves completely straight and is, in fact, only rotating, our ass *will* get nae nae'd. If one would say, learn how to perform a controlled stall turn from screwdriver or vortex forward movement, without falling out of the sky due to loss of lift, that could be one of the ways to dodge, because the missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is - whichever is greater - it obtains a difference or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviation to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position that it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is is now the position that it wasn't, and if follows that the position that it was is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation. The variation being the difference between where the missile is and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows: Because a variation has modified some of the information that the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it know where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice versa. And by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
The "lead" mode is meant to be used against missiles. Standard tracking is fine for aircraft as at the very least you'll destroy the engines and it'll crash. With a missiles, primarily with WMDs, you need to destroy the warhead as destroying with tank/body will in most cases allow the warhead to continue on its flight trajectory. The SAM will explode in front of the target sending the energy and shrapnel either into the incoming missile or sort of make a flak cloud of shrapnel that will detonate the warhead as it passes through the cloud. Think of it like a guidable Flak gun from WW2: you want to lead your target to kill it. It works foe aircraft too but it's not necessary That's the dumbed down explanation at least. "Lead" for missiles, "trail" for aircraft.
I think the reason the missiles are missing/snaking hard and losing energy is because Phly is switching out of auto mode. In the lead mode, every small change in target direction at long range makes the missile veer hard to keep leading with each slight move. The target burns very little energy but the missile burns a lot of energy. In auto mode, I suspect the missile will use the most energy saving mode until it's close enough that the lead mode will not cause wild deviations in its course.
Phly it flips over in the beginning bc The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference, or deviation.
I guess the main benefit VLS (vertical launch system) is that its easy to reload and you can store more munitions without the need of complex reloading equipment like that used in rail and tube launched systems. It would be the same for naval ships using VLS, Plus extra credit for looking cool af
From what I've heard those are the same vertical missiles designed for ship use and are mortar fired before igniting the secondary systems so as to not damage delicate radar or other systems or personnel with the backblast.
Cold launch is also used for this but with these particular systems if you look closely there is smoke from the lofting charge ejected with the launch of the missile. It's cheaper and far more reliable as a closed system than having to maintain compressed air under tge launch systems.
Stacking the missiles vertically allows you to fit for more missiles, especially when they're that big. The missile system was designed to house the missiles inside to protect them mainly from the environment so feasible way to house them sideways. You have to do verticle.
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
19:05 something you can do to dodge modern air défense missiles is called notching and it implies flying perpendicular to the missile while launching flares and chaff. This makes it harder for the missile to track the target. I don’t know if it’s modeled in the game but I would hope so
The VLS in the Tor is the most efficient way to Shoot 360 and to store missile. Same reason, why most ships have VLS. The Tor flipps with manouver Jets.
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't and, arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation; the variation being the difference between where the missile is and where it isn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it, too, may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows: because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is, however it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice versa. And by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
The reason for the vertical tubes is because it is more efficient. If you look at most of the Naval Vessels (Russian, American etc) they have the capability for a VLS (Vertical launch system). It can also mean that you can change the type of missile in the case of something like a Ticonderoga class cruiser. Instead of having Anti-Air SM-6's it could have Tomahawk cruise missiles instead in the same tubes that the SM-6's would be in. It is overall just a better and more efficient way of launching missiles.
Seeing ppl in a cobra let along in 11.0 pop off always makes me happy. That thing usually gets ripped apart like wet paper before it's even 2 km to the battlefield
The missile is launched like this so that it can fire while the turret is not pointing at the enemy. The missiles can first fly towards the rough location of the enemy via intertidal guidance and then get guidance by the turret when the turret has turned towards the enemy. It just saves a few seconds of reaction time really.
@@whoknows8864 because you need a big turret anyways, to house the fire control radar and optics, and the missiles is very long so has to be at the center of the vehicle, then why not put it at the middle of the turret and make it turn with the turret?
@@thomaszhang3101 Because it adds unnecessary complexity and cost to do it. Although, it does make sense that the missles are too long to be anywhere else. That slipped my mind.
@@thomaszhang3101 for their small arms, sure. But as far has vehicles go? The fancy autoloaders and putting the missles in the turret are a little contradictory to simplicity.
Personal theory about the reason for the turret, maybe the rocket pitching forward has something to do with the position of the launch tube, meaning maybe the ejection charge or whatever it uses is off center of the rocket to make it pitch, which may require the whole mechanism to rotate to change pitch direction. It may also be to position the targeting equipment on front of the turret to point directly/closer at the target. Again, IDK, but that's my guess. I'm sure someone who knows more will comment eventually.
I believe why the missiles are launched like that is because navy ships like the Arleigh Burke class has a VLS and you can carry so many missiles with less moving parts. So in reality the Tor-2 is a small, mobile land VLS for AA use. That’s my reasoning, since the arm carrying design like on some of the AA like the ADATs??? Idk haven’t gotten that far in the game yet, but it was very complex on ships and could only carry a couple missiles and had a long, complex reload time
Phly I just wanted you to know that I’ve been watching you ever since I started playing war thunder about 5 years ago and I just wanna say that all of your videos make me happy and laugh even when I’m sick or having a bad day so thank you❤ (R.I.P Daniel)😢
I think the best chance of avoiding it would be making big maneuvers at longer ranges, try and make it bleed all of its energy tracking you. other than that, only prayers can help you
I’m guessing the missiles turn with the turret so the tip function can work without having to spin the missile and then tip it. Makes the launch system and sequence a little less complicated at least in theory. Don’t know how they achieve the tip other than maybe whatever force pushes it out the tube is slightly off center so it doesn’t throw it straight up.
Why it's VLS? My best guess would be easier to engage in any direction when the launcher is slaved into an external radar. With the VLS the missile can go in any directions, so the turret does not have to "look" at the intended target. And afaik the missiles have small boosters (like the RCS boosters on the space shuttle) in the nose to point the tip in the right direction after ejection.
The reason the missiles shoot upward are what the Russians call "Cold Launched". It catapults upward then the rocket is ignited. This allows the silos to be reused without damaging them from the rocket motor.
I just gotta say, it is so nice to have you back man! I don’t even play war thunder anymore and you make me laugh out loud and shout at the screen every time you post a video. Thanks for doing what you do man!
This missed system is meant to intercept fast moving targets in a short distance. It doesn't does well against aircraft with a large degree of maneuverability such as drones and helicopters. Also it is easily distracted by missiles since the computer prioritizes them.
Chaff should work a bit wiith the Missile. will be kinda intresting if they add Electronic warfare as a aspect to the game, radar jammer pods can help with evading this kind of missiles, since it will deny the radar ranging informations
It's basically like a dry launch system uses gases to propel it up before it Fires it's rocket engines .Russian ships use the same technique to launch their missiles from the VLS. it's basically so if the rocket malfunctions it is not activated and fall like a dud but I could be wrong about that part
Phly I think you missed one of the coolest pheatures of this SAM system: it can fire and forget at multiple targets. They covered it in the Shooting Range. Lock one, fire with the lead tracking, use the 'switch radar target' keybind to the next, rinse and repeat.
As others have explained it's meant to engage multiple targets and in the real world it will often get the radar data from a different entity so it doesn't need it's own radar to guide the missles. Imagine if helicopter base AA put an F-14 style track while scan lock on anything that came too close that you could use in warthunder terms.
In real life one of the ways to evade such a leading missile is by doing large high-speed loops perpendicular to the line between the missile's origin and the point where you were before starting the evasive maneuver. So in case of heading towards the SAM, you quickly turn 90 degrees and then enter the loop
literally looking at the xray you can deduce its the length of the missile. Also mounting them on the turret puts a ton of weight that's required to spin with the turret and track vehicles.
One of the reasons I've seen for the missiles being stored in in turret vertically is that it's so it look less threatening. By having them on a rack, it can appear more threatening opposed to having them stashed away, with just radars visible. Same ideology with using wheels instead of tracks, to appear less threatening. There might be more reasons tho
Choosing missile functionality like that should mean it's incoming to everything with Hellfire and Vikhr. Hellfire chooses (in-cockpit) between lofting and direct-on approach aka one marathon of the extended editions of the Lord of The Rings trilogy before it hits or something reasonable, while Vikhr chooses (before even getting put on the vehicle) between ground target functionality or proxy-fuse. Things would be made a bit more fair that way.
Thank you for showing the comparision between the real and game SAM system. I think they really need to improve on the sound effects and detail of weapons being fired in this game.
Whats super scuffed is that most of the 11.0 SPAA have automatic lead tracking although it is direct optical, Flak rad and its clones, ADATS, 2S6.. etc.., The 2S6 optic isn’t even fixed to the turret so the FCS can automatically lead the target with a SAM using IRST while the guns are still slaved to the radar which can engage the same or a different target.
Do not quote me on any of thisi just list some possible advantages: I can see it beeing done to get easier ground clearance like for when you try to launch a missile from an ocelot towards a low flying target, due to the ultra low launch altitude the missile sometimes hit objects/ground (also sometimes to the fact that the missiles tracking system does not contain obstacle/ground clearance/ avoiding features) with that high of a launch altitude, you can decrease that a lot.
Most modern missiles and basically all radar guided ones Im aware of lead their targets. In reality pilots will try to use that against the missile if theyre defending from it by changing direction and making the missile do a long lead turn bleeding its energy in the process. If fired from max range even smaller course adjustments can make missiles miss or more like not reach their target.
Phly: "the missile knows where you are gonna be" My brain: "The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error."
Hey Phly! Awesome Video as always! Loving the SPAA videos! As always peeps, DONT FORGET TO LEAD YOUR TARGETS But hey, you should check out the Italian C13 T90 It was the vehicle that got me my phirst nuke, and I’d like to see it and the ABUL/74 (specifically the 90mm) on the channel! The combo means in any terrain you can get to a sneaky spot, and scout phor tons of SP! (Day 111) (But play the Hawk III first) (Play all the new stuff actually first, then the Hawk, then the C13) Even tho he’s retired I still strive to see the Hawk III for my boy
Welcome back Phly Back to business: HEY Phly can you play the Hawk III please?! >For that Dude that has requesting that for years now< My Request: Btw i saw you have the M48 Suuuuuuuuuuper but you didn't even made one vid about it so why don't you do M48 Super aka Go-Kart Patton (at least in arcade🙃) And because you want to play a combination take the IL-28 out with its FAB 3000 for some multikills Phly can also you make a bomb bay showcase if you are using Bombers thx u🤗 Day: 98
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is.
The missile "jumping" before firing off is called cold launching. You guessed correctly, the missiles are launched through gas (the gas isn't actually in the missiles, it's through a gas chamber below the missile itself.) One of the benefits of cold launching over hot launching (the rocket engine activating within the vertical launch tube) is in the event of a launch and the missile engine malfunctions, they can eject the missile to avoid it exploding inside.
Another benefit of cold launching is having a smaller effect on the radar equipment. Hot launching that close to the radar reciever can mess with with the incoming data and possibly lose the lock if the missile is slaved to the vehicle's radar
Not to mention the fact that an object at rest tends to stay at rest. The most inefficient part of any rocket launch is imparting that initial velocity, so if the rocket's already moving when the engine ignites, it wastes less propellant.
I dont think itd be too different, the initial momentum is upward, the rocket motor would still need to use as much energy to get it into motion, especially considering the TOR missile weight
And I should note that this is a fairly popular launch method in Russian missile systems. It is used in most anti-air missiles, in ICBMs, in different sea-based missiles and so on.
It also makes reusing the launch tube a lot cheaper and easier because you dont even need to maintain it often unlike Hot Launch.
The missile moving so erratically is giving me major anxiety
Mostly phrom the server replay. In game its smoother lol
It knows where it is because it knows where it isn't
I thought it was a stock market curve phrom the side xD
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.
It's just doing the owl thing to increase its depth perception.
04:58 “The missile predicts where you are at all times. It knows this because it predicts where you are not…”
Misquote
the missle knows where it is by knowing where it isn't
for anyone feeling like it wasn't sounding right the way this commenter said it >:(
The missile knows where it is at all times
It know this, because it knows where it isn’t.
@@patrickbateman4148 duh... Was edited for the situation
🤓
An advantage to a VLS (vertical launch) system like is is that you can fire multiple missiles rapidly in multiple directions without the turret needing to move. This makes sense when you understand that a big part of Tor's mission is to shoot down waves of inbound cruise missiles.
“The missile knows where it is because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is, the system commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. The position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.”
hahahaha, i instantly thought of this when Phly started saying:" The missle knows.."
I KNEW SOMEONE WAS GOING TO SAY THIS
I gave myself a stroke reading this
Actually the RIM-24a are the biggest Surface to Air Missiles, its on the USS Douglas. Could be a cool video idea.
👁👄👁
@@PhlyDaily 590 Kg of CAS Pain...
And the missiles will only get bigger, imagine when SM-2 or even the SM-6 missile enters the game on
DDGs...
🤓
@@toasteroven6761 Sm2 and sm6 will be op no matter what dude
@@_jagerbomb cornball+cringe+L
I feel like when it launches out it's fins are pointed in a specific way to allow it to turn before the motor fires
Most systems like this use a set of thrusters in a cap on the nose to orient the missile before firing the main motor. You can actually see them fire in real-life videos of systems like this.
@@jacobdewey2053 I see, I was just taking a guess
@@vannlo355 No worries! Just thought I'd chime in with some knowledge
It's a good guess, the main thing you forgot to account for is that at speeds that low with the weight it has, it probably wouldn't have enough airspeed over the fins to orient it until the motor fires
@@vannlo355 I made the same guess as you originally, but looked at some footage and you can clearly see the jets on the nose, it's really cool
It's meant to shoot down multiple targets at the same time which is why it has the launch system. It means it can just pop a missile and have the tiny rocket shove it in the right direction without turning the turret.
1:34 this is for firing from closed positions, when surrouded by trees, or rocks or buildings. Rescently there is a video appeared where "Pancyr" shoots at multiple targets from closed positions and one of rockets just hits near building just because of this reason - tilted missile launcher. Also Tor's missiles are much heavier, so this vertical lounching position is it's key feauture.
Forgot to mention that the TOR can lock onto two targets at once and quickly switch between which is being tracked
Does this work in the game too ?
As dcs pilot and study of missile evasion i can tell you can hit the dive to bamboozle missile dive into the ground killing itself. Second tactic is to notch which is pointing your wing at the threat (you know when you're 90° degrees to threat site from RWR) 3rd tactic is weaving which happens turning side to side as you're chaffing. Tactic for those fighters or players that doesn't have chaff against SAMs like Tor is to go back dive to treetop level and weave but do not turn hard or you'll lose speed and become vulnerable to missile. TOR missiles can be independent which means even it's host lose lock on you the missile itself sees you but if you do many evasive actions you will likely break it's lock because it's too much for it or it self destruct due to it's low energy it had to bleed because it tries always get ahead of you.
Another to keep in mind is the TOR-1 in warthunder is nerfed to be usable in warthunder. They can shoot out to like 20-25 almost 30 miles.
>Nerfed to be useable
God I hate this. People want tanks, but then when they behave like actual tanks they act like babies.
@@sunshadow7XK 🤓It's an SPAA. Also what can you do, it's a multiplayer game.
the missiles are stored in the middle because it is protected and its better than having 8 unprotected missles at your back that everyone can see.
I remember the Tor-M1 was also in the original MW2 during “Contingency” mission, it’s the one that shoots down the 1st Predator drone that you use in the mission when you reach the top of a hill overlooking a village
You could destroy it before it shoots down drone btw
This AA to be honest feels like and underground missile base for some reason
I am glad you are back
More like DDG VLS cell imo
The vertical launch really reminds me of the submarines from back in the day
@twerking bollocks he’s talking about the April fools event for I think 2020
So glad your back Phly, we all missed you!
Yes
Chill it’s not like he came back from the dead
People have been commenting this since he came back. "it's time to stop"-filthy frank
You're as in you are back Your back would imply you are talking about his back.... that would just be weird.
You’re
1:45 its launches it vertical becuse the soviet wanted to have a Sam system that cann engage targets 90 degree over it the search radar even looks up you cann see the small extention on the radar angled upwards so you cann scan for targets above you and shoot them
i think in addition to what others have said about firing multiple rockets at once at different targets, the VLS allows it to be better hidden or camouflaged say if in a clearing in the woods or in a courtyard in a clump of buildings in a small town, if working in tandem with separate radar entities it can fire without needing a direct line of sight without giving away where it launched from .
5:23 ; A missle knows where it is, by subtracting where it isnt….
You beat me to it 😂
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.
The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
@@IndigoSolution That was a freaking great read. Thank you sir or madam.
@@IndigoSolution This is why mathematicians shouldn't explain things until they're forced to get an A in their language courses.
5:27 The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't, by subtracting where it is, from where it isn't, or where it isn't, from where it is, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance sub-system uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is, to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position where it was, is now the position that it isn't. In the event of the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has required a variation. The variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too, may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computance scenario works as follows: Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is, however it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subracts where it should be, from where it wasn't, or vice versa. By differentiating this from the algebraic sum og where it shouldn't be, and where it was. It is able to obtain a deviation, and a variation, which is called "air"
5:27 „The missile knows where it is because it knows where it isn't by subtracting where it is from...“
You have been back a while now but I cannot explain how much excitement I still feel seeing a new video
On the strategy to evade the missile, there's a certain turret in Space Engineers iirc, that fires into the predicted future position of a ship based on it's vectors movement.
The way it's usually avoided is with a screewdriver/vortex type of forward movement, which often results in complete and continous missing of the target.
The danger of this method is if the object under our control moves completely straight and is, in fact, only rotating, our ass *will* get nae nae'd.
If one would say, learn how to perform a controlled stall turn from screwdriver or vortex forward movement, without falling out of the sky due to loss of lift, that could be one of the ways to dodge, because the missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is - whichever is greater - it obtains a difference or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviation to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position that it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is is now the position that it wasn't, and if follows that the position that it was is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation. The variation being the difference between where the missile is and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows: Because a variation has modified some of the information that the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it know where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice versa. And by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
The "lead" mode is meant to be used against missiles. Standard tracking is fine for aircraft as at the very least you'll destroy the engines and it'll crash. With a missiles, primarily with WMDs, you need to destroy the warhead as destroying with tank/body will in most cases allow the warhead to continue on its flight trajectory. The SAM will explode in front of the target sending the energy and shrapnel either into the incoming missile or sort of make a flak cloud of shrapnel that will detonate the warhead as it passes through the cloud. Think of it like a guidable Flak gun from WW2: you want to lead your target to kill it. It works foe aircraft too but it's not necessary
That's the dumbed down explanation at least. "Lead" for missiles, "trail" for aircraft.
Man i really wish i knew your key bindings, id love to know what you have and maybe if it suits me set mine up kinda similar
So we are just ignoring the fact that he uses TH-cam white mode....
IKR!!! Burns my eyes if I use white 😭
I think the reason the missiles are missing/snaking hard and losing energy is because Phly is switching out of auto mode. In the lead mode, every small change in target direction at long range makes the missile veer hard to keep leading with each slight move. The target burns very little energy but the missile burns a lot of energy. In auto mode, I suspect the missile will use the most energy saving mode until it's close enough that the lead mode will not cause wild deviations in its course.
8:44 is basically the only time I have ever heard Phly genuinely scared from seeing a team mate die.
So funny. 🤣
it was me
Phly it flips over in the beginning bc The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference, or deviation.
The reason the launch sounds like the torpedo is because they're both metal tubes grinding against their metal launcher.
Yeah, usually for a launch like that, they use some kind of compressed gas to give the initial boost before the missile's motor ignites.
I guess the main benefit VLS (vertical launch system) is that its easy to reload and you can store more munitions without the need of complex reloading equipment like that used in rail and tube launched systems. It would be the same for naval ships using VLS, Plus extra credit for looking cool af
From what I've heard those are the same vertical missiles designed for ship use and are mortar fired before igniting the secondary systems so as to not damage delicate radar or other systems or personnel with the backblast.
Cold launch is also used for this but with these particular systems if you look closely there is smoke from the lofting charge ejected with the launch of the missile. It's cheaper and far more reliable as a closed system than having to maintain compressed air under tge launch systems.
A anti tank version would be interesting
god no
strap a couple Javelins and call it a day LMAO
We kinda already have this with the javelin minus the cold launch
Skibidi toilet
So an atgm?
Stacking the missiles vertically allows you to fit for more missiles, especially when they're that big. The missile system was designed to house the missiles inside to protect them mainly from the environment so feasible way to house them sideways. You have to do verticle.
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
19:05 something you can do to dodge modern air défense missiles is called notching and it implies flying perpendicular to the missile while launching flares and chaff. This makes it harder for the missile to track the target. I don’t know if it’s modeled in the game but I would hope so
Flares? What do flares have to do with it
The VLS in the Tor is the most efficient way to Shoot 360 and to store missile. Same reason, why most ships have VLS.
The Tor flipps with manouver Jets.
I look forward to seeing the Type 93 and the Tor-M1 chilling together on the battlefield, despite being on opposite teams.
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't and, arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation; the variation being the difference between where the missile is and where it isn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it, too, may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows: because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is, however it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice versa. And by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
Attempt 361:
Play the forgotten Mig-9 and show everyone the power of the original 23-37mm Vodka Jet.
Used to be the best jet in game
@@TheBic4 its still decent if the 37mm wouldn't behave like the sparkanos did 37mm HE shell doesn't only hit and do 9 god damn damage.
The reason for the vertical tubes is because it is more efficient. If you look at most of the Naval Vessels (Russian, American etc) they have the capability for a VLS (Vertical launch system). It can also mean that you can change the type of missile in the case of something like a Ticonderoga class cruiser. Instead of having Anti-Air SM-6's it could have Tomahawk cruise missiles instead in the same tubes that the SM-6's would be in. It is overall just a better and more efficient way of launching missiles.
7:37 "We got shitters like me here." I nearly spit my Coke on the screen XD
It’s a cold launch, compressed air from inside the launch module pushes the missile out just like on the a submarine
Seeing ppl in a cobra let along in 11.0 pop off always makes me happy. That thing usually gets ripped apart like wet paper before it's even 2 km to the battlefield
The missile is launched like this so that it can fire while the turret is not pointing at the enemy.
The missiles can first fly towards the rough location of the enemy via intertidal guidance and then get guidance by the turret when the turret has turned towards the enemy. It just saves a few seconds of reaction time really.
Then why launch the missles from the turret if the advantage is that the turret can turn to lock afterwards?
@@whoknows8864 because you need a big turret anyways, to house the fire control radar and optics, and the missiles is very long so has to be at the center of the vehicle, then why not put it at the middle of the turret and make it turn with the turret?
@@thomaszhang3101 Because it adds unnecessary complexity and cost to do it. Although, it does make sense that the missles are too long to be anywhere else. That slipped my mind.
@@whoknows8864 haha the last things to worry about in a Russia vehicle are cost and complexity 😂
Sometimes it’s a little too simple, almost primitive
@@thomaszhang3101 for their small arms, sure. But as far has vehicles go? The fancy autoloaders and putting the missles in the turret are a little contradictory to simplicity.
I forgot how much phly daddy makes me appreciate the small things in warthunder
I think phly need to watch the s550 launch lol if he wants his mind blown
Personal theory about the reason for the turret, maybe the rocket pitching forward has something to do with the position of the launch tube, meaning maybe the ejection charge or whatever it uses is off center of the rocket to make it pitch, which may require the whole mechanism to rotate to change pitch direction. It may also be to position the targeting equipment on front of the turret to point directly/closer at the target. Again, IDK, but that's my guess. I'm sure someone who knows more will comment eventually.
they are too big to store side ways + less moving parts + more storage capacity + no reload
It could use little motors to rotate the missiles in the direction of the radar lock, but that would create a delay to rotate the missiles
If this is anything like the Little Bird we can almost NEVER expect this AA to be added into it's real country's tech tree
I believe why the missiles are launched like that is because navy ships like the Arleigh Burke class has a VLS and you can carry so many missiles with less moving parts. So in reality the Tor-2 is a small, mobile land VLS for AA use.
That’s my reasoning, since the arm carrying design like on some of the AA like the ADATs??? Idk haven’t gotten that far in the game yet, but it was very complex on ships and could only carry a couple missiles and had a long, complex reload time
Phly I just wanted you to know that I’ve been watching you ever since I started playing war thunder about 5 years ago and I just wanna say that all of your videos make me happy and laugh even when I’m sick or having a bad day so thank you❤
(R.I.P Daniel)😢
I think the best chance of avoiding it would be making big maneuvers at longer ranges, try and make it bleed all of its energy tracking you. other than that, only prayers can help you
Bleeding it's energy won't really help you, depending on the tracking mode the player is using you need speed and only manouvre a bit
I’m guessing the missiles turn with the turret so the tip function can work without having to spin the missile and then tip it. Makes the launch system and sequence a little less complicated at least in theory. Don’t know how they achieve the tip other than maybe whatever force pushes it out the tube is slightly off center so it doesn’t throw it straight up.
Man I can't say how much I have missed the daily uploads from daddy Phly ;)
Why it's VLS? My best guess would be easier to engage in any direction when the launcher is slaved into an external radar.
With the VLS the missile can go in any directions, so the turret does not have to "look" at the intended target.
And afaik the missiles have small boosters (like the RCS boosters on the space shuttle) in the nose to point the tip in the right direction after ejection.
This missile knows where you are going to be because it knows where you aren't going to be.
The reason the missiles shoot upward are what the Russians call "Cold Launched". It catapults upward then the rocket is ignited. This allows the silos to be reused without damaging them from the rocket motor.
I just gotta say, it is so nice to have you back man! I don’t even play war thunder anymore and you make me laugh out loud and shout at the screen every time you post a video. Thanks for doing what you do man!
This missed system is meant to intercept fast moving targets in a short distance. It doesn't does well against aircraft with a large degree of maneuverability such as drones and helicopters. Also it is easily distracted by missiles since the computer prioritizes them.
Chaff should work a bit wiith the Missile.
will be kinda intresting if they add Electronic warfare as a aspect to the game, radar jammer pods can help with evading this kind of missiles, since it will deny the radar ranging informations
2:15 so there are still people that use the white theme
5:28 "The missile knows where..." oh here we go again lol
anytime i see Phly play WT.... i get motivated log in , get destroyed.annihilated... delete game and dedicate myself to watch these vids 😀😅
I love the replay analysis - always wanted to re-watch some of your good kills, so i'm here for it!!
The missile knows where you are, because it knows where you aren't.
It's basically like a dry launch system uses gases to propel it up before it Fires it's rocket engines .Russian ships use the same technique to launch their missiles from the VLS. it's basically so if the rocket malfunctions it is not activated and fall like a dud but I could be wrong about that part
Phly I think you missed one of the coolest pheatures of this SAM system: it can fire and forget at multiple targets. They covered it in the Shooting Range. Lock one, fire with the lead tracking, use the 'switch radar target' keybind to the next, rinse and repeat.
You'll hardly ever use it tho. 2 enemies have to be, and stay, within the same axis.
@@ThijsEsveldt this is true
you have no idea the excitement I get when I have been seeing phlydaily uploads like crazy.. hell yeah
yeah, that VLS is a gas generator pushing the missile out, then using gas thrusters on the missile to orient before lighting its main engine.
As others have explained it's meant to engage multiple targets and in the real world it will often get the radar data from a different entity so it doesn't need it's own radar to guide the missles. Imagine if helicopter base AA put an F-14 style track while scan lock on anything that came too close that you could use in warthunder terms.
That chopper...looks like a Daniel Tiger in the neighborhood.
Make a video about how the SU-11 is the most broken thing in air RB at 7.0. (attempt 5)
You Are The Best Warthunder Content Creator On TH-cam
I Wish You Success ❤️✌🏻
5:25 The missile knows where you are at all times, it knows this because it knows where you will be.
In real life one of the ways to evade such a leading missile is by doing large high-speed loops perpendicular to the line between the missile's origin and the point where you were before starting the evasive maneuver. So in case of heading towards the SAM, you quickly turn 90 degrees and then enter the loop
yes its called a cold launch. they use a form on compressed gas to launch the missel from the tube then the missel fires its main engines
literally looking at the xray you can deduce its the length of the missile. Also mounting them on the turret puts a ton of weight that's required to spin with the turret and track vehicles.
The missle knows where it is at all time.
One of the reasons I've seen for the missiles being stored in in turret vertically is that it's so it look less threatening. By having them on a rack, it can appear more threatening opposed to having them stashed away, with just radars visible. Same ideology with using wheels instead of tracks, to appear less threatening.
There might be more reasons tho
Nope not why
@@thunderwrld Then why. I think it's just one of the reasons, but necessary the main reason
@phlydaily - how do you auto distance, and lock on from distance? i get you have top tier location, but its crazy how quick you can do it.
That shot at 7:48 was impressive
@thomasscottish6601 that’s so awesome! Been watching vids for like 2 years! Best Christmas wishes to ya!
@Thomas Scottish nice bot
I felt the pain in phly’s scream when Daniel died
Choosing missile functionality like that should mean it's incoming to everything with Hellfire and Vikhr. Hellfire chooses (in-cockpit) between lofting and direct-on approach aka one marathon of the extended editions of the Lord of The Rings trilogy before it hits or something reasonable, while Vikhr chooses (before even getting put on the vehicle) between ground target functionality or proxy-fuse. Things would be made a bit more fair that way.
Thank you for showing the comparision between the real and game SAM system. I think they really need to improve on the sound effects and detail of weapons being fired in this game.
2:46 Bayraktar destroyed dozens of targets, don't make me laugh
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't
Cold launched missiles don't kick up a bunch of dust. There's other benefits too ofc.
18:10 the thing is, AGM 65's are fire and forget, unlike your missiles
The missile isn't spazzing out; it's just writing "suka blyat" in exhaust vapor before deciding to head toward the target.
Whats super scuffed is that most of the 11.0 SPAA have automatic lead tracking although it is direct optical, Flak rad and its clones, ADATS, 2S6.. etc.., The 2S6 optic isn’t even fixed to the turret so the FCS can automatically lead the target with a SAM using IRST while the guns are still slaved to the radar which can engage the same or a different target.
Do not quote me on any of thisi just list some possible advantages:
I can see it beeing done to get easier ground clearance like for when you try to launch a missile from an ocelot towards a low flying target, due to the ultra low launch altitude the missile sometimes hit objects/ground (also sometimes to the fact that the missiles tracking system does not contain obstacle/ground clearance/ avoiding features) with that high of a launch altitude, you can decrease that a lot.
"Oh my god Daniel, Oh, Daniel, Daneilll!"😂😂😂
Most modern missiles and basically all radar guided ones Im aware of lead their targets. In reality pilots will try to use that against the missile if theyre defending from it by changing direction and making the missile do a long lead turn bleeding its energy in the process. If fired from max range even smaller course adjustments can make missiles miss or more like not reach their target.
Phly: "the missile knows where you are gonna be"
My brain: "The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.
The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error."
Hey Phly!
Awesome Video as always!
Loving the SPAA videos!
As always peeps, DONT FORGET TO LEAD YOUR TARGETS
But hey, you should check out the Italian C13 T90
It was the vehicle that got me my phirst nuke, and I’d like to see it and the ABUL/74 (specifically the 90mm) on the channel!
The combo means in any terrain you can get to a sneaky spot, and scout phor tons of SP!
(Day 111)
(But play the Hawk III first)
(Play all the new stuff actually first, then the Hawk, then the C13)
Even tho he’s retired
I still strive to see the Hawk III for my boy
Welcome back Phly
Back to business:
HEY Phly
can you play the Hawk III please?!
>For that Dude that has requesting that for years now<
My Request:
Btw i saw you have the M48 Suuuuuuuuuuper but you didn't even made one vid about it so why don't you do
M48 Super aka Go-Kart Patton (at least in arcade🙃) And because you want to play a combination take the IL-28 out with its FAB 3000 for some multikills
Phly can also you make a bomb bay showcase if you are using Bombers thx u🤗
Day: 98
The launch is really cool! But look at launch of the Bastion P. It's much cooler!
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is.