Stop Completing From The SB | Poker Quick Plays
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2024
- A completion from the SB is when it’s either limped or folded to the small blind and they elect to just call the big blind. SplitSuit explains the common mistakes that players make in these spots, especially in live games, and gives hard evidence as to why these ranges are a mistake. He also gives his completion range, comparing its value and reasoning against the “average” range he feels many players really use.
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I agree with this in principle, and am often the only one at a table not completing every time it's a limped pot. However, there's a big element missing from this discussion, which is table dynamics. Sometimes you'll find yourself at a pretty standard or tough table, where employing your tight, mostly fold, rarely raise/call strategy is best, but then you've also got the kind of table where loose whales are consistently floating you two streets in position just so they can jam any river you check on. On tables like these, it's going to be insanely +EV to complete, then close your eyes and get it in when you hit a decent top pair on dry boards, TP+, or put yourself in a spot where you can jam a combo draw.
There's nothing more soul crushing to fold your 89o a few bucks and flop strong only to watch two fish get in 100bb on top pair vs a gutshot.
One other consideration is table image. You sometimes have to take slightly -EV lines for tiny amounts so you're not pegged as a nit, and lose action on your big hands. Not always, but sometimes.
You sound like the character "Badger" from Breaking Bad. Good videos.
Lmao
Wonder is SS has the Sudo hookup
Great video, this really comes down to these hands that have a lot of reverse implied odds, but not such a great outlook when it comes to implied odds, and you explain that really well. Personally I have no limping range to speak of when playing cash, but keeping my completion range tighter when others limp is very important to keep in mind, I am sure I am guilty of some of this. In tournaments there are situations when I love limping, but those situations just don't really exist in cash games.
I have the opposite concern. I almost never complete from the SB. I prefer to raise or fold. But, in some games I am concerned that I might be folding too often and missing out on some gift pots. Or, more importantly, I might be creating an image that is too tight and I might end up getting run over.
I have to watch this video at least once a day to remind myself. Even then I find myself calling. So tempting. :)
it is tempting for a reason...for a lousy buck more you could flop a full house and win 200BBs or something...sure it is rare, but 400-1 is hell of a payday, and we've all seen it happen plenty of times. not only that, there are many ways to win a poker hand if you are any good. i think just to play in the hand is worth the dollar, regardless of your cards.
Good talk at the table. Guy to my left said add up all $ you completed with all night and missed. Play long enough and it adds up!
Widen raising range to include hands like 10/9s, J/9s, J10s, K9s QJo, K10o, pairs 4’s+ completing with all my suited connectors and one gappers of 65s or better. Sometimes get creative and open up for a pot+ bet with 2’s, 3’s, and 4’s, knowing that if called we still have decent equity (but may not realize a lot of it). I also like to check dark in live, because I’m out of position and often it gets checked back when I do. I can stack villain if I flop a set, or get there on a free turn.
Not sure if it’s necessarily the right play, buts it’s been working for me.
Like your videos a lot.
Great info James!!
I definitely needed this video , are you implying that you are raising from the SB with KQo almost every time in this spot? or is that one of the hands that you complete with occasionally because it can go either way based on circumstances
With KQs we can also run into higher flush and with T9 running into higger straight and so on. Having said that, I do think it is important to be cautious in those spots and avoid staking off with dominated hand.
Note: I might be a bit MTT oriented, pardon me if in cash it's different.
you would complete with KQs?
I complete the sb with a 243% range. is that bad?
Do you have a similar range from the BB when facing minraisers? (I'm a low stakes tourney grinder so stacks are shallower.) Do you think restealing with your given range is a better option in this case?
krellis1000 MTTs are a totally different beast, especially with shorter stacks. That being said, if you are facing a minR and in the BB, you are getting a great price and should give action a decent chunk of the time...
What if everyone is playing that wide range in every position. Should I then play small blind with those ranges or tighten up?
I watched this last week but failed to apply it in my session earlier. I completed with K5cc from the SB in a limped family pot. Got an all club flop. But got coolered ny A3cc. Never again will I disobey your guidance, James. (But i probably will still from time to time.)
Great points, thanks
Thank you for these
Q8 was used in a poker bank article as a hand that you *should* overlimp with. What is the most up to date thinking on this?
I always do this in cash games lol hoping to hit big on the flop, nice video I need to work on that bad habit.
So if u fold hands like 7'5s how are you going to make those crazy straight flush draws like in Casino Royale movie? Did you think about it?
I paused the video and wrote down my range in that situation as suggested and it matched yours almost exactly. I was actually a little more conservative, not completing with KJo or QTo, but that was it!
joeshab123 great job!
nit
Early in a tournament, when blinds are low, would the advice be the same?
The early levels of a tournament play much like a cash game, so yes.
one question: if you don't value suited kings because of reverse implied odds, why do you value suited connectors more than unsuited connectors? i mean, if you make a flush with 56s, you have a 6-high flush... using your logic, suited connectors are terrible hands, and unsuited ones might actually be better.... what am i missing?
with a suited connector you can make a flush, a straight flush, a straight , ... while an unsuited is very unlikely to get a flush and a straight flush and if you get a flush than it's very unlikely you have the nutflush. So it's very obvious that suited is better than unsuited...
Suited connectors are speculative hands
This range looks kind of wack. Is it really better to complete AJs than iso it?
This is very useful, where is the link for completing from SB vs an open raise with limpers? Btw, this is Jul 31, 2014. Any update? This seem to be a bit nitty in today's era.
The advice about completing is NOT the same as defending from the SB vs raises. Those are two very different strategies and ideas :)
Hey SplitSuit. Huge fan of your videos, they have certainly improved my game. I have somewhat of a non-poker related question that concerns your video production. Would you mind telling me what program you use to create your videos? I find the editing and layout of your videos to be easy on the eyes and I'd like to create similar videos for a different-work related application. If you do not want to unveil your secrets I totally understand :). Thanks!
+Cullen Chapman I use Camtasia 8 for these videos. The hands are replayed with PT4 & a custom replayer theme. If you are going to do this stuff on your own, pay attention to framing, color selection, and font selection. Hopefully that helps and GLGL with your project!
Fantastic. Thank you very much!
This is my problem to a T. Great video. Working on that discipline. I can take too much folding
If you get bored folding too often, try 2 tables at once. Not much harder than 1 table but the number of good handa you can open increases and you get to play more. Also you increase your profits if youre a decent player
What do the colors mean in the chart at 5:12 ?
Yellow suited, green pairs and white unsuited is the basis color scheme.
The hands you limp with are marked blue. The good hands that aren't blue are the ones you raise with.
Great content as always, James! What do you think the benefits are of completing with small suited connectors in this spot. I notice in the completion range, you go as low as 54s. I could just be nitty here, but I feel like this is a massive RIO spot as when we DO smash the board, we're often holding the low end of a straight or flush or bottom two pair. Even if we're at a table of loose-passives who will pay off multiple big bets with TP, the fact that the pot is limped means it's that much tougher to get monies in.
That's fair, and hands like JTo, 54s, etc. are those "cusp" hands to my completion range.
very very insightful
How does this strategy vary when playing against players who aren't that good? E.g. playing online for virtual chips rather than real money.
Are you raising KQo in your range? If so, why?
I'm usually raising large enough to get a HU pot, or all folds. KQ doesn't perform as well in a bloated MW pot OOP
Should the number of limpers influence the range with which you complete?
You would want a stronger range if you find yourself in the hand with multiple players. The more players there are, the stronger you would want your starting hand to be.
@@nicholaszamudio2189 The more players there are, the better the price to see a flop. It's actually the complete opposite of what you're saying if you have the discipline to lay down hands that aren't the absolute nuts instead of getting sucked into playing marginal draws out of position.
@@stop_tryharding Fair enough. I concur.
I complete hella wide getting 9:1. Look, if this is regularly happening in the game you play, people suck. I complete, wait til I make a monster, and go for value. And get it. I remember completing 23o and flopping K23hh. overbet pot, 2 calls, 2/3 on the turn. one call. jam river. called by KX. Made like 120bb. now I can complete for a week, litterally.
I should (but won't) go through my hand history for live cash. I bet I have a good wr from the SB completing 70%.
Thats said, I think Split is the Sh!t. I just think, if you're good enough, and your opponent's are bad enough, you can make money.
what if they had K3, 22 or 33? you never know when its happening and especially out of position you will get crushed when they hit dp+ or when they it turn or river... and the times you will get paid by Kx are not that much, it depends on where you are playing and against whom
Nobody is +EV from the SB. We would all agree that 5 BB /100 is a solid win rate at any game. But even if someone is absolutely crushing (obliterating) a game for 35 BB/100, if you look at their stats, they are still minus EV from the SB. The goal is to minimize the average loss from the SB. Not a single great player (Jungleman, Ivey, Galfond, etc) has a +EV small blind over any significant sample size. If you can find me one, I'll write you a check for a million $.
Mel SB is -EV you donk.
show me how often that happens... you loose way more than win, even more if you are playing against regulars.
Well technically yes, but there are other considerations. First of all if you are a decent player and find yourself in a game where there are 3 limpers and nobody to punish them that means you have a good skill edge over the table. Second you might flop a monster and loose passive guys will pay you off in those spots. On the other hand if you encounter aggression after the flop you can comfortably fold since they almost always crush you equitywise. Lastly if you keep folding those spots you will get tagged as a rock/nit and you will not be given any action in later hands.
if its 762 yes I stack off I am not that good to fold top 2 pair
All of your poker quick could be also applied in tournaments right? With some deviations of course.
*poker quick videos
Most of the concepts will apply to MTTs as well, yes
Thanks for the reply. Your videos are very helpful. Keep up the good work and good grinding!
Thanks Joao!
if I play such hands I play to flop 2 pair or better or a strong draw like pair and flushdraw or gutshot and flushdraw most likely 5 way I am not calling any bet with toppair weak kicker
What's a broadway gapper? I would've thought it meant two cards that can make broadway together but then you've got Q8s as a broadway gapper. Can you explain? Thanks :)
SplitSuit would define a broadway gapper as a hand with at least one broadway card in it and a gap between the cards. So KT, J9, and Q8 would all fit the bill.
The Poker Bank So how come at 1:31 it says to not play suited broadway gappers but then at 4:55 it shows K10s, KJs. etc.
Maybe I missed something though. I'll have to listen again. Thanks!
SplitSuit didn't say not to play any suited broadway gappers...rather many of them don't perform very well and should be folded instead
fml so much to learn
at least you are in the right place to learn a ton!
How much money did you make by poker?
With Q8 you didnt mention straight draws
Question. I agree w/ your assessment of marginal holdings, like suited connectors (which people often over-value), but through much of the range you recommend I'd be ISO-betting 4 bb _ 1 bb per limper.
If I have a decent hand (88+, A7s+, K9s+, any non-paired suited Broadway), I'd fire an 8 bb bet ISO-bet -- or $16 here. My other rule of thumb is that if I'm not at the very least going to go 3-4 bb to open in the Small Blind, I'll fold. Ergo, I'll only play 55+, suited connectors from 89s+, and unsuited Broadways for my weaker holdings. And then iso-raise for my better hands.
My thinking is as follows. Odds are, most limpers have marginal hands. And since I have their money, I'd like to scare them off. And if by chance there's someone slow-playing a large hand, I'd rather draw heads-up. So my raises say, "I have a hand and, since I'm going to play out of position, I'm paying for information about your hand,."
Of course, this can backfire. Especially an ISO-raise, which scares off all but the best hands. Plus if anyone's paying attention, my raise size here is a tip-off. But I'l be out of position, so I'd rather have them know I have a monster. This can often get them to fold a better hand (like say a TT if they think my ISO is repping JJ+ when all I have is JTs).
Taking all this into consideration, is my thinking right here? I'm curious. I've only got about a month of online poker under my belt and I'm learning... actually taking your Red Chip Poker Core course & reading some good poker strategy books (Hellmuth, Brunson and Sklansky).
Thanks in advance.
in tournament poker it's cool nowadays to complete from SB when it's folded to you...just saying...also in mutli-way pots you get even more insane outs with all the antes...
+UraStr fair. This was meant more for cash game players who don't have the same nuances as MTT poker.
+The Poker Bank Ultimately in MTT or sit & go the only thing which changes is the pot odds not the hand strength. So I think your rule of thumb is fine until your in a situation of less than 10 BB's (+ 2 orbits of antes) or an impeding blind up is occurring. Sometimes tighter play is also required if your in a situation were it's unlike for you to win but can climb the ladder a couple rungs for a better prize out vs 1 - 3 monster stacks with multiple low stacks. Bounty games have a much wider range however IMO due to the nature of bounties out valuing final position until your getting to the final table. Sometimes a single bounty is worth as much as a top 20 finish or more in large MTTs and better than 13th - 10th in 90 player sit and go. Overall your advice is sound IMO for both cash and MTTs with a couple minor conditions for situation.
Be a nit when in SB
Depending on the price, I will play any two cards. The key to any range when OOP from the SB is fold discipline.
100% agree. Post flop fold disclpline
I've been tempted for song long with the great price, especially playing 2/3. But it's also true that I've lost a fair amount of money even when I flop something decent and have to continue. And I usually don't get much value when I hit monsters.
"And I usually don't get much value when I hit monsters.
" yeah but all you need is one good one every 50 -100 orbits to get it all back, is the thing. you gotta remember the long game of poker. just play really tight post-flop from that position (as you should anyways) and only continue on good+, not merely decent...
@@compteofficiel4112 This is my thinking as well. If it's only costing you .5BB to see the flop you should be calling with just about any 2 cards, especially if there's an ante in play, unless you have ICM reasons to fold.
Just have to play them right once you get to the flop, don't be afraid to lay down 'decent' hands. It pays for itself many times over when you flop a boat, check call and someone completes their flush on the turn.
@@stop_tryharding what is ICM? i'd say the best reason to fold is just if the big blind is aggressive and raises a lot but i still fold sometimes just for (what i guess would be called) balance...it can help to project a tight image.
@@compteofficiel4112 ICM stands for independent chip model, it's just shorthand for considering your equity in the field of a tournament. Like if you're short stacked on cash bubble and there are a few people shorter than you, then you probably shouldn't be voluntarily putting money into the pot unless you have premium hands. Like when faced with the choice between playing AQs and potentially missing a flop and putting yourself in the position where you may bust out without cashing, or folding it pre because someone on the second table is about to bust out, you throw AQs away every time. Same goes for if you're facing a big jump up in payouts after the next bust out. Winning chips is nice, but in a tournament the goal is to win as much money as possible, even if that means folding hands you would otherwise play.
And yeah, obvs if you're facing someone who is going to raise you most of the time, that should be considered when deciding whether to call or fold pre. But otherwise .5 BB is a small price to pay to see a flop, especially with lots of limpers, because when you do flop a monster (especially a well disguised one) you're going to more than make up for all the times you had to fold after missing the flop.
@@stop_tryharding thanks for the explanation. its funny because the only sizable tournament i ever entered i was the very last person to bubble out...i had AA (naturally) and even though i knew i should just fold and get in the money, i couldn't pull the trigger...got it all in on the flop and lost to some weird trips against a fairly trashy SCC hand...so i can definitely see what you are talking about.
actually why would you have AJs in your completing range but not KQs. are you implying that you would raise with KQs here? but you would complete with AJs?
In fairness it is rarely a bad thing to fold from the small blind if there have been a lot of limpers and you aren't prepared to raise with your hand. Playing out of position in a multiway pot with a mediocre hand is not a fun way to spend and evening.
Its ok to conplete wide from the sb if everyone fold to you its even recommended to raise from the sb pretty wide but in a multiple pot i would fold more even more with an early raise
Correct, the advice in this video is more targeted toward multiway pots =)
Would you say a squeeze is the way to go here? Win the pot preflop. But is it gonna be a profitable squeeze?
A squeeze is technically a 3bet when there is a raise and at least one caller in front of you...so this wouldn't be a squeeze opportunity :(
Then what is it called? 2bet vs multiple limpers? Should we raise here and pick up the dead money, or fold?
I also see that we don't have a bluff on our range here. Observant opponent will easily put us on a hand when we raise. We don't have bluff's on our raising range. If you can't defend a proper criticism. I don't think you do well defending from the blinds neither. So you can choose to ignore this again.
Not sure why you are being so aggressive in your commenting - but yes, it would be a 2bet vs limpers. You are in the worst position possible and you can certainly choose a depolarized raising range that is value-heavy when raising over limpers from the blinds. You can widen it out to include suited connectors, weaker Ax hands, etc. when you have information on your opponents - but you don't need to use a polarized range when raising just to include bluffs in the raising range.
Can I please point out the obvious. if you learned ANYTHING from this video, you don't have to worry about balance at the stakes you play.
can you talk a little about limit hold 'em? I know low pocket pairs and low suited connectors increase in value as starting hands. Because if you connect on the flop it's hard to price you out. Also, I live in a nice sized city, but we only have one casino. The game for the beginners (lowest stakes) is either $1/$2 no limit hold 'em or $3/$6 limit hold 'em. I've read the 2+2 forums and the consensus seems to be, it is virtually impossible to play these games profitably. The rake is 10% max $6 with an extra $1 for bad beat jack pot and a $1 tip for the dealer. Anyway, cool videos Split Suit :D
Justin Giglio unfortunately we only discuss NL on this channel :(
Ok, no problem :) .......I've read the 2+2 forums and the consensus seems to be, it is virtually impossible to $1/$2 NLHE profitably. The rake is 10% max $6 with an extra $1 for bad beat jack pot and a $1 tip for the dealer. Anyway, cool videos Split Suit :D
But when you limp in w/ k8 suited, the point is that people aren't going to be having hands like kj b/c they would raise them. And completing w/ ajs seems way too tight...
Yeah I thought that, surely AJs is a raise from small blind into a limped pot? The only hands that have you dominated would surely have raised except maybe AQ from early position and possibly AA hoping for a limp reraise. But you can’t avoid betting simply because someone might have you beat and raise you; with that logic you’d check every hand except the nuts.
Is this not the opposite advise form Daniel Negreanu? You're getting such a good price you should be going in with basically anything.
I think this is good advice for people who don't have the discipline to fold hands that appear to have potential but can lead to tricky situations.
But I agree with Negreanu. Price that good, call with any 2 cards. You just have to be willing to fold stuff you wouldn't from a later position.
I wish you made this video earlier, great video!
Thanks Banned :)
For most players, a 3-bet or fold strategy will be better.
gimne a break live poker your gonna fold suited K just stop
i know right? and 14%??? why even play cards at all? at $1/2 you have even more reason to stay in a lot of pots, because people at those levels will stack off a lot more often too, so if you hit a freaky trips on Q33 board, you could win back 200X your dollar investment.
and how can you not play TJ....even for a raise you gotta call with TJ in most cases...run the odds of TJ vs. AA, you might be surprised. TJ is a big hand.
If you're getting 3 limpers on the SB in going to steal with any hand.
Why not just raise the limpers to take control of the pot?
I literally complete with all hands. but I know how to fold top pairs. im literally calling to see tripps, or 2 pair, or straight draws. and I only complete if there is 3 other limpers
But trips+ is like 4% of the time and some of those times you'll offer RIO. Not a great proposition...
yea but if its a limp, even with 4 percent equity, that means all I need is more than 20 blinds to be profitable. its almost always profitable, if you know how to get out of bad spots. I have the same kind of mentality for closing the action. I just don't like my opponents to be able to put me on a hand. which is why I like playing garbage hands sometimes, aka completing or closing the action. it also feels good to stack a player with j5 offsuit or 2-6 offsuit, with a gnarly fullhouse hahah
and like I said, im assuming I play well enough(usually compared to the rest of the table) to minimize the RIO. im a tournament player, so its really not that hard to find a fold in most spots.
so how many times are you going to miss how many time are you going to catch flush draws and straight draws that never complete and you pay another street or 2 and how many times youre going to hit your straights and fullhouse without getting any money or 2 streets? how are you going to make money in log run coz thats what all about right?
think about it!
every 2 cards has the same chance to hit quads, and fullhouses, and when ur completing with the 93 suited in an already 3 way pot, ur getting great odds to see a flop, which is ALWAYS PROFITABLE, if ur a good player, and know how to not get trapped. thats the advantage i have, when the board come 93A rainbow, and some gets attached the their acejack, or Ace 10 that they limped. or board comes 33j and someone is getting stubborn with a jack, or lets say its a 3xraised pot, and im closing the action on the bb with 93suited, and the flop comes 933, its hard for anyone to put you on a fullhouse, someone could get attached to pocket 10s, jacks, AK, etc. you get paid, because people cant put you on the hand. why dont you think about it, when you close the action in a 4 way pot, doesnt matter what 2 cards you have, you are getting the right price to call and try to stack someone, considering everyone is playing with over 80 blinds. its the same as set mining, except with 2 random cards, and instead of going for sets with pocket pair, you are goin for werid 2 pair, full houses, and straights, and random flushes. THE MATH SAYS YOU ARE NEVER DRAWING DEAD PREFLOP, AND IF YOU ARE CLOSING THE ACTION, IN A MULTIWAY POT, WITH NO SHORTSTACKS, YOU ARE ALWAYS GETTING THE RIGHT PRICE TO CLOSE THE ACTION. END OF STORY.
this vid is way too old right now, am I right ? :)
it was misguided from the get-go if you ask me....this is simply not good advice and the reasoning is both incomplete and faulty. sure, you should probably play a little tighter than the average player does from the SB, but this is ridiculous.
Haha Just played a hand last night with 72 off 2/3 game 600 infront "bored"on small blind after seat 4 bets $15 with 4 calls flop was 2210 and got lucky and won a huge pot of around 589 just luck
Nothing wrong with a bit of luck!
egg cedra
funny how you talk about KXs being bad partly because of reverse implied odds, but include all suited connectors and don't mention the same for those....you aren't the only commentator i've noticed this about...if you are suggesting not throwing in another buck with KXs I think you are way, way too nitty and also inconsistent in your logic.
but then i have post-flop skills so i don't see throwing in another SB as a real risk....that is unless the BB is aggressive and is going to raise a fair amount of time...which is point you didn't even mention...and i think the main reason for not completing pretty wide. i mean 9-1???? come on..besides that, if you flop trips or better just once out of 40 or 50 times you would get your tiny investment back...
People! Don't listen to the advice in this video! It will make playing boring when you don't have to keep reaching into your wallet to reload after you repeatedly get stacked after having a good but second best hand OOP against an opponent who you will foolishly called when they put you all in sometime during the hand!
in 99.4% of spots, you should either steal or fold if it folds to you in the sb. open-completing from the sb is a great way to set money on fire.
this is just sooo wrong, I´m sorry, it´s basically exactly the other way round.
+MCFoultier open-completing from the SB isn't a default play no...but there are select times when it's best.
The Poker Bank
it is a default play.
John Smith
if you say so champ
+John Smith don't tap the tank lol
whatever guys. I´m pretty good at this game, and this is pretty decent and basic advice, but you wouldnt believe it anyway. go ahead and do what splitsuit says
"Pairs I don't raise with?" There are pairs lower than 22?
horrible advice. when there are three or four limpers and you complete you are getting like 10-1 odds on your extra dollar. of course you take it. the "advice" here is that you can end up losing money with a marginal hand. DEEP! yeah you can also smash the flop and make a shitload of money.