Dragon Age Inquisition - Vivienne Cared (Highlights)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มี.ค. 2022
- Vivienne is a very misunderstood character since the majority of her motivations and true personality are hidden behind extensive dialogue options, party banter and her reaction to key events. This is a short collection of clips highlighting times Vivienne showed she cared for others and for her fellow mages.
This is a small selection of highlights from a much larger video that will showcase times she cared, her actual views on the Circle and Templars , humorous moments as well as other small things that many people may have missed. - เกม
Vivienne is a very misunderstood character since the majority of her motivations and true personality are hidden behind extensive dialogue options, party banter and her reaction to key events. This is a short collection of clips highlighting times Vivienne showed she cared for others and for her fellow mages.
This is a small selection of highlights from a much larger video that will showcase times she cared, her actual views on the Circle and Templars , humorous moments as well as other small things that many people may have missed.
"You honestly believe the world is better off with *you* setting its course?"
Solas. Solas. SOLAS. You ought to be asking yourself the same question.
My personal favourite Viv interactions (and there are many, honorable mention to anything she and Iron Bull say to each other) is when Varric tells her he's casting her as the villain in his next book and she is delighted.
Viv knows that, in stories, good heroes are a dime a dozen but good villains are timeless.
I don’t agree with Vivienne’s views but I love her as a character. She acts like a villain but she’s fundamentally a good person.
She very much seems to be the product of her environment.
Unfortunately her sheer narcissism (and the fact that she wholeheartedly supports an opaquely corrupt and repressive institution) rubs a lot of folks the wrong way, but she's not the only character with that problem (Solas, Sera).
Agreed.
She is a grounded mage who, justifiably, believes that the mages are not like normal people and it's the nature of the world.
Some circles were prisons with Templars as their cruel jailors like the Kirkwall Circle but there were also mages like Uldred.
There was also Orsino which proved Fenris right when he said that when they really need it blood magic is allowed.
There is also the background of the research lady Minnavae who tried to survive with her magic after getting kicked from the clan, was about to be lynched by medieval common peasantry and being rescued by Templars.
I'd refute the good person but she is smart, her villainy is nowhere near what she wants people to believe and as bitchy as she is,she is not blinded by her arrogance and personal avarice to the point of being unable to see the bigger picture.
Not good, but respectable.
the only thing that matters is how you act. "well some people are monsters in action but angels deep down inside". Deep down inside, does not matter when outwardly you're a condescending piece of shit.
Honestly, Vivienne is the living embodiment of someone I can like as a person while vigorously disagreeing with them. She's dignified, intelligent and subtle, and she has some arrogance, but the kind which can be backed up. She also shows a deep caring side to her if you have high approval, often offering (very good) advice on the maneuvering the challenges and nuances of power, and generally just caring about you as a person. Plus, her personal quest was probably the most touching: giving the man she loves a final comfort before she dies. She wasn't someone I always (or even often) agreed with, but she was someone I always listened to...
Take the W.
Somehow her caring side and friendship rote when in high approval isn´t talked enough. Maybe because most is Pro-Mage Freedom and gets the worst of her? 💀
I think the circle should act more like a school. Where the graduate would have to go through numerous test to ensure that they would not fall to demons or lose control of their powers and only then they would be allowed to leave the circle and have a scemblence of freedom.
It would even be better if both the mages and the Templars studied together like a joint training session, to encourage comradeirship and establish a sense of trust among themselves. This mages will have more of a reason to hold themselves back and Templars would be less prejudiced.
Well, ideally, that is what Viv is wanting as well.
She states that the Circles are necessary for the training of mages and that mages need the company of other mages because no one else can truly understand the struggles they face or see the world as they do. However, she also wants the Circles to hold more political power and sway and so that is also a part of her ultimate goal.
People think she just wants power for herself but she actually wants political power for the Circles which would benefit all mages and is something she does in the Trespasser epilogue ending whether she is Divine or not. It is stated that under her "What the Circle lacked in numbers, they made up for in political connections; soon they were a force to be reckoned with."
the problem is that's exactly what a lot of Circles are or were according to Viviane and lore we have. The Harrowing is the last of such tests and we know from anders that when you pass your Harrowing the templars can't make you tranquil and Running away is not punishable as far as i can tell by anything serious. so if you run after your Harrowing and your not practicing blood magic or summoning demons they just take you back to the tower. V mentions several times that a lot of the magi of the circles live outside it. the problem is simply that abuse happens and the mages in the towers or outside it know their gilded cage is just that a cage. I like Viviane and i appreciate what she tries to accomplish but its the wrong route. i think Cassandra's way is better checks and balances. the mages train to be safe to themselves and others, the templars train to protect the mages from themselves and others. both of these have a vested interest their too close to ever be without prejudice one way or another. have the seekers watch the templars and no one else their job is to make sure the templars are doing their job correctly and nothing else. Follow up write down some bloody rules the entire thing is a convoluted mess of politics and regional commanders that basically make the laws as they go. mages should be banned from politics you really wanna keep another Tevinter from happening keep them out of political decisions. the mages cogovern with the templars the templars enforce those rules and the seekers act as arbiters in disputed cases.
That's the thing: a lot of them were. Vivienne clearly states at one point that the main issue was how widely the circles varied from one place to another. Most Circles, evidently, were more like academies than prisons, and a mage's only obligation was to check in regularly to demonstrate they weren't communing with demons or practicing blood magic. As Vivienne puts it, she had a Royal Apartment within the Orlesian Palace and a private residence for vacation. No one made her go or live anywhere. This very much complicates the politics of the whole situation, and helps make sense of why there were many mages who didn't really have any interest in violent revolution, since from their perspective there really wasn't anything to revolt against...
But here's the thing. The circles constantly teach that all spirits in the fade are demons. Look at how she treats cole, he is literally the embodiment of compassion, he is kind and his sole purpose is to make others feel better yet she calls him demon constantly. If he was not using a humanoid body or determined to stay compassionate her words alone would turn him into a demon
@@chriskoloski32 Well , and he didn´t help sway her "dislike" for him , either. He constantly took traumatic events out of her mind for example (Her archivist friend dying, her Harrowing and the racist noble making colorist comments about her skin color). So, she is justified in hating him, I would too. Imagine if a strange kid kept telling EVERYONE to hear what I'm afraid of, what do I regret and sad/traumatic events of my life?
Nevertheless , she *grows* to like him , as he put out in the light.
Okay but...
"You'll need Omniscience and eternal life to police the mages themselves".
Hmm... Vivienne I think you hit a little too close to the mark there.
Indeed! Little did she know at the time haha
Spoiler warning:
It's funny how if you go back and play it through knowing everything that there are hints all over the place. While the reveal still seemed to come out of left field there were clues that helped to set it up, subtle as they were.
@@Drakenrahll very much so!
One thing I really like is when she says that : People want the end of the circle and think mages should be free, but nobody tries to come up with a realistic solution to deal with the problems.
Vivienne is, by far, one of the best written characters in the game. Many players don't like her because they can't seem to understand why she's the way she is [which is funny, because 2 entire prequels have shown us why].
She knows better than most the danger of magic, she knows exactly how extreme the damage can be if a Mage goes out of control or summons the wrong demon, this is why many of her conversations early on has her against the Mages and actively wants them supervised.
I agree. Viv is a character that has a lot more depth than people realize and a lot of her motivations and true feelings on matters are hidden behind a lot of in-depth conversations and context clues. The developers really played into the Orlesian vibe of "never lets others see your true façade" because so much of her characters is hidden and you have to pay close attention to really pick up on some things. Most people only pay attention to the surface and decide that she is an arrogant, self hating mage who wants all mages locked up in the circles and is pro templars and restrictions, however, her very actions if made Divine or the things she says in conversations contradicts this. She is genuinely concerned for her fellow mages and wants them to have more political sway and power but doesn't feel that a war will do anything but cause more fear of magic and mages in general. After all, one of her primary acts as Divine is to give mages more freedoms and responsibilities while, at the same time, leashing the templars. She even tells the players that the Templars are a useful tool but agrees with you that they are not the solution.
It's amazing what people would see if they paid more attention.
We as the player is very powerful and can revive with infinite lifes. We feel a lot of things for NPCs, love hate anger. But never fear.
The in lore characters are medieval farmers, they would be scared shirtless by magic because they have no means to stop a mage. Of course everyone want them locked up forever
"May you learn." Indeed. One has to wonder just if Solas has learned a damn thing in all these years.
I think she's a great character. So many layers. At the squishy centre is a survivors need to hoard all the power, influence and control she can and shape the world to protect herself. She's motivated primarily by fear and she fights that by making sure that everything goes ABSOLUTELY the way she perceives to be right. She's ruthless because if she gives an inch she knows people will take a mile. Doesn't make her devoid of empathy. She just won't be defeating evil with the power of friendship.
Everyone including me used to hate her in 2014. Coming back after growing up some more my views towards her changed significantly. I understand where her view comes from a lot more now.
Vivienne: *Wants power and is honest about it*
Players: *DISGUSTING!*
Solas: *Wants to destroy the world and is dishonest about it*
Players: *Understandable, have a good day*
Yeah, true
When I first came across dai content, it was a video on solas romance. (I've played the previous games before, so I had some knowledge on it). Since I didn't really care for spoilers, I looked into it & read a little about the game and characters. At the time I agreed wholly with the majority and thought Solas was the only person who made sense.
Then I played the game. And I found myself liking him less and less. His weird ancient elf supremacy, the desire to reach his idea of a better reality even if it destroys countless lives and the world itself... While at the same time he thinks himself so much better than Corypheus, ha.
I don't agree with Vivienne a lot of times, but at the very least she is honest about her desire for power.
The hypocrisy of the DA community lol
Also
Players: viv is mean and a jerk
Also players: morrigan is awesome 👏 🤩
We just gonna pretend the only reason we know Solas intends to destroy the world isn't because he told us point blank?
If you want a proof that she cares, listen to her voice lines in a video "All Companion Combat Barks: Dragon Age Inquisition"
Might I ask what I'll find in there?
@@devilpistons1269 Vivienne's emotional cries towards all of her companions falling in battle
@@4RedJohn thank you
@@4RedJohn you were right
I mostly agree with Vivienne on the dangers of magic, but i think she is wrong about the Grey Wardens. I see them as a necessary evil.
I do love Vivienne. I love how intelligent and cunning she is, but also that she still cares.
Thank you for putting these together!
I do not agree with or like Vivienne. She is interesting, though, I give her that.
She... literally sent Pride away laughing though. Literally. And thats amazing. He was right there the whole time, and even he laughed at her pride.
I always thought of her as an Aunt.
Aunt V, I like it!
She's always cared
I actually hold a very similar stance on Mages as Vivienne. The circles served a much needed function as a Mage without formal training is a danger to themselves and everybody around them. The commoners are afraid of Mages and Magic in general and through fear can cause a lot of Violence. The problem is that Mages have little responsibility or any real drive to do much after their harrowing.
Personally I would push for public works using the mages. Creating hospitals where they can use healing magic on the common person. Or even for combat by having those who proves themselves capable in joining the Templars. How many templars can be saved if they had healing magic by there side or a strong mage helping them. This is two fold as say in a party of 4 templars and one is a mage. They can mitigate potential violence with apostates by talking to them and saying how the circles were like. Heck spot magical traps or even stopping blood mages from doing their worse.
Public Works is the best way for Mages to build up their reputation and through their actions they can gain much more freedom in life.
A good argument but the flaw is the compulsory, and at times, slave nature of Circles. Education is an extremely powerful tool for promoting safety and even eliminating outright dangers. But for Education to be effective, it has to be optional. Forced education only leads to rebellion.
Inspire, intrigue, or even indoctrinate at the most extreme if you must, but do not force. I would disband circles entirely, install a police-like system of Seekers in all major cities and townships, and then sponsor powerful mages to do acts that will inspire future generations.
Make Magic something to be awe-inspiring, while simultaneously educating intensely on the dangers of its use. Show the amazing things it can achieve if wielded properly, and then teach proper technique. Sponsor study and research into solving the possession/abomination problem.
The most important thing to do is to remove the stigma of magic without downplaying how dangerous it is. And the way to do that is by raising up exceptional mages and enabling them to do wondrous things that show that the benefit of magic is worth the danger. And then you work on solving or mitigating that danger. Always pushing for more and more progress.
Create programs and competitions that offer rewards for significant advancements in the safety of magic. Give people a *reason* to proactively fix the mage problem without murder or ego-death. That's the only real long-term solution.
The thing is Education is mandatory for Mages. Unlike regular people they are at high risk of demon's possessing them or just risk from using their magic in general. But yes there do need to be higher standards in some Circles of their Faculty. Kirkwall's was a complete disgrace of a circle on many levels not just mages.
The Circle is the best institution because let's look at the other options. Familiar training such as with the Hawk family of apostates or the Dalish with their Keepers. This only works for a few people as many others would not have access to this training.
You say you wanna inspire and wow the public masses with Magic whom most have a deep distrust or simple hatred towards it. The majority of mages are not exceptional or prodigious most will be average at best and that will be the bulk of the population.
The only solution to the problem is as I said before is public works. By using their magic for the advancement of the people even the common Mage will have a role to play. Also this aligns well with the Chantry stating magic is meant to serve. By creating new occupations this will generate more coin and future prospects to those in the Circles. The mass majority of people living in Thedas believe in the Chantry and working alongside them is something that has to be done as Mages are but a small fraction of the entire population.
@@kinghoenn3478 I know they're high risk. That is why the Templars/Seekers exist. You install Seekers/Templars in every major city/township and give them authority to investigate magical incidents. Forced Education does not work. Forced public work does not work. Sentient beings do not respond well to others forcing them into doing things against their will. Freedom through Education is the answer.
Essentially forcing mages to do community service is not going to placate the masses. It's literally just maintaining the status quo. People aren't learning about magic. The people of Thedas aren't shedding the fear of the unknown in magic. The average non-mage isn't going to be inspired to study magical theory and possibly contribute to a breakthrough that makes possession a worry of the past.
There's no progress, no future. Just more of the same, just to placate the population. If your average peasant learns how magic works on a fundamental level, it won't be so scary to them.
In just 1 or 2 generations, you could have a foundation to set up a system where normal people are studying magical theory and developing tools that do the jobs of Seekers and Templars with the actual Seeker or Templar. Technology could be developed that can be installed everywhere that is effective in neutralizing magic in emergencies and then people can rest easier.
Further progress could be made to develop magic annulment to the point of charms that mages can wear that makes them immune to possession (similar to Cole's pendant). From there, you can study the act of possession and abominations themselves and try and figure out a way to completely rid the problem from mages without Tranquility.
It's all about building a system that will fix the problem in the long run. Not kicking the goalpost to future generations to deal with the same problems over and over again. I know it:s a videogame with magic and spirits and gods, but look at the incredible things public education has done for us in the real world. Education really is the only real solution.
Like Minaeve says in Haven, people fear what they don't understand. But once you learn how something works, suddenly it's not as scary. It becomes a problem that requires a solution rather than a supernatural force that you have no hope of overcoming.
@@zeropolicy7456 It may be forced education but that is something that can't be ignored. It takes years and by the time the mage enters adulthood there ready for their harrowing. After that they would be able to move about with far less restrictions. Not everything can cater to the Mages whims and if they have to go through training to protect themselves and not be a threat to the general population then so be it.
As for public works, I never said anything about community services. I am talking about actual jobs that all people mage and nonmage alike. This is an incredible opportunity to make a good living as well as doing great work for your community. Nobody would force the mages into this sector or work but it would be something they could excel at that the common folk would be unable to. An option for which they can earn a wage just like anybody else. Why should mages not be allowed a job like everybody else. Are they better then a cobbler or baker who work every day to survive?
You say there is no progress but I disagree. Mages could create wonders for their nation or the world at large. Better medicine, Aquaducts for clean drinking water, maybe even just better daily life for the common folk in general. Progress takes time and it's not always clean cut and can be messy in some places but their has to be give and take.
Mages at the end of the day are still just people. But they have a chance to have a better life than many others through the system. If Mages were allowed everything like they were above others then we would have another Tevinter on our hands.
@@kinghoenn3478 You're talking about wielding mages as base tools to improve the prestige of kingdoms. But you're not addressing the real problem. The risk of being a mage. The goal should be solving the problem of mage abomination, and creating a safe way to mass nullify magic without killing or tranquility in emergencies.
You can't do that by having mages work on aqueducts or stuffing in towers under lock and key of armed guards. You do that through Education. And not just mages. You educate common, non-magic people on magic as well. Get people invested in solving these problems themselves instead of just relying on Seekers and Templars like a crutch.
Seekers and Templars should be safety nets against Magic *while* you come up with a long term solution. They shouldn't be the solution themselves. That's putting way too much power and authority into one organization. The whole Dragon Age series is a cautionary tale of organizations formed to solve extraordinary problems, and then falling to corruption because of greed and clambering for power.
The Greywardens, the Seekers, the Templars, the Chantry, the Imperium, the Inquisition. They all eventually become corrupted by power because people come to rely on them too much instead of solving issues themselves. Seekers and Templars and Circles need to be phased out and the task of solving mage abominations need to be given back to the people.
It's the only way Magic can be safe, and Mages can be free. Optional public education.
Got to admit dragon age does diversity right, doesnt feel forced just natural
Hear-fucking-Hear.
I agree. Same with the inclusion.
Dorian is a gay character done right, IMO.
To be honest I didn’t even pay attention to her skin color?
Couldn’t care less
Viv and Dorian are done extremely well on the other hand a lot of other shit felt forced and I hated it. Sera/dagna is weird, sera in general being a love interest was a poor choice that feels fake. Krem was kinda stupid too. Existed to exist for the sake of existing even if it didn’t add anything to the story. There’s other characters and pairings I forgot but inquisitions writing was seriously hit and miss like throwing darts at a wall with no focus target 🎯 in mind whatsoever
And that’s exactly how diversity should work in video games. Unfortunately, that’s often not how it is now.
The arguments between her and Solas are like brother and sister 😂😂
I LOVE HER SO MUCH 😭
I love Vivienne. She had so much depth and owned such a fun dignified persona. While i disagreed with some of her views I also realized she very much care about others and had a very rational and pragmatic logic. Also her voice actor did a very great job. I liked when she called me "dear" and "darling" lol, reminded me of a caring aunt (which she kinda it later on)
She’s my new Divine every play through sorry not sorry , the chantry needs a change .
3:36
How’s no one noticed this!? Vivienne just said to Solas of all people that you need to be a god to meet out justice!
I always liked Vivienne
Theres a lot of this game I havent found or played through yet. Didn't know that the Ocularum's were made from tranquil skulls. Thats horrifying. Jaw dropping.
Got enough mages in your group
Haha, right?!
It was a personal challenge I wanted to do. I have beat the game on Nightmare difficulty a couple times but never with a full mage group so I wanted to try it out at least once. It was very challenging for sure and took a lot of master crafting to pull it off but was fun. Also, you get a lot of humorous banter between Viv, Solas and Dorian and a full mage group fit my visual narrative anyway
@@StrifeStalker that must've been tough on nightmare a bear would rip through my team
Craft a gear that applies guard on hit, everybody having access to barriers. Each mage also specialized in an element that allowed access to a constant supply of useful tools. Such as stuns from the lightning tree, crowd controls from the ice tree, damage, and cc from the fire tree and then extended barriers and the fence from the spirit tree. Aside from that I also focus them purely on their given specialization, and was very strategic in my gameplay. It was actually a lot of fun haha
7:31 "Oversight for thee, but not for me" Solas?
Well played, @StrifeStalker
Thank you for putting this together. ❤
4:50 That line coming from anyone else but solas I would Agree
But coming from Him
Hrem hrem, Hippocrite!
What I liked most about Vivienne was how dangerous she felt as a character, but for the right reasons. You feel as though she would be equally dangerous in opposite ends of the spectrum - in a seat of power (you know no one would want to piss her off) and also if she lost everything, you can only imagine how dangerous she would become then, either for the right or wrong reasons depending on the circumstances. A lot of potential with her character!
She is also a Knight Enchanter, the most unkillable mage specialization
1:29 her voice here is so calming
Yes , her little details are all perfect. A goddess. I wish she was romanceable but they truly wanted Vivienne to be static , development wise :/
What are your thoughts on the things vivienne says about mages with the quote “naturally. First we execute those that will not submit, then deal with the rest.”
I am a vivienne FANATIC but it’s sometimes hard to defend her. I think she’s so wonderfully flawed. A woman who had a good experience in the circle, and a free ride to power (bastien) but cannot grasp that so many mages did NOT have that same experience. I’d like to know how you feel about that quote though. Love these videos.
Another big complaint I see about her is her being a hypocrite. And she’s painfully unaware of the privilege she’s had. Would love to hear your thoughts.
So, the part you are referencing is party banter between her and Dorian. What people miss about that particular conversation is that Viv is actually be sarcastic and mocking how they do things in Tevinter.
Dorian: Vivienne, are you saying you wouldn't rather live in a land where mages aren't herded into cages like dogs?
Vivienne: Which land is that? The one where mages are feared and despised as tyrants? (Hinting to Tevinter)
Dorian: I'm the first to admit magisters aren't perfect, but they've also done great things. They're allowed to.
Vivienne: Monstrous things as well, or you wouldn't be here, would you? (Talking about Tevinter)
Dorian: Locking people into cages isn't the answer.
Vivienne: Naturally. First we execute those who will not submit, then we deal with the rest. (Talking about Tevinter)
Dorrian comments a few times about how mages seem to kill other mages for sport in his country and basically just how the politics are there. He jokes about it a lot if you take him to the Winter Palace during the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts quest.
As far as the part of her being unaware she references the situations in the Circles a few times in Haven.
In Haven if you take to her at length she tells you a few key things. First she tells you that the issues with mages and the circles is that not every mage has the same experience. She tells you that every circle was different, their politics were different, and every mage had an experience of circle life unique to themselves. She tells you that some suffered and some were content. Some were cruel, some were indifferent. She also tells you that she has no issues with mages protesting abuses at the hands of the templars, but dont do it in a way that says mages support murder.
I don't want to misquote the entire conversation so I am going to just link to you the video I made about it. Its at the very start of the video
th-cam.com/video/VFKtkbaC3Qc/w-d-xo.html
@@StrifeStalker wow what an awesome reply. I absolutely adore your dedication to my all time favorite video game character. Thanks for the fast reply too!! So glad to see someone else who adores this character so much.
@@StrifeStalker how do you feel about her “close friendship” in general? People whine that she’s only nice to you if you agree with her, and I kind of see that. But you can kind of say that about most people usually. Additionally, if vivienne is so good at what she does, why was she falling into irrelevance during recruitment? Sorry to bombard you. Just love being able to talk to another vivienne stan
@@goth11223 to be honest, Viv is the only character that actually will have a conversation with you at length and gives you information to showcase that the world is not black and white and that all cultures have ways of dealing with matters whether the player wants to admit it or not.
For example: In Haven if a Dalish inquisitor tells Viv that the Dalish have no use for Templars, Viv will take them through the following bits of information. She asks the player what happens if a clan has more than two mages in a clan? And the player replies that "If a clan has a first and second in the clan and another mage is born, that mage will be sent to another clan that is in need of a first or second. Viv will then state that is correct but also remind them that if there is not a nearby clan in need of a first of second then that additional mage is exiled. So, while the Dalish may not have need of Templars, they do limit the danger of magic by how they handle mages in the clans by limiting the number by never allowing more than two per clan.
We also know this information to be true because the elf you can turn research items in to, if you talk to her, tells you that that is exactly what happens to her. We also know that the Qun and Qunari have a much harsher way of dealing with mages and essentially turns them into weapons. Dwarves do not have to worry about it. (currently I should say, we shall see how that goes)
Either way, each race has some ways of limiting the dangers of Magic. Viv is hardly ever straight up dismissive or rude if you disagree with her, she will usually attempt to have a conversation with the player at length about the topic. Another of my fav interactions does, however, take place if you have a negative relationship with her in Skyhold. The inquisitor can essentially call her out for not having sympathy towards the mages and Viv will tell them that her fear IS for her fellow mages. Because she doesn't want to see mages being hunted down with pitch forks by angry mobs because of people's fear of magic.
One thing I like to point out to people who seem to think Viv wants mages locked up and is a Templar lover and self-hating mage is to remind them that, if made Divine, one of her first actions is to give the Circle mages more freedoms and responsibilities while simultaneously leashing the Templars. This, by itself, is contradictory to their argument.
People also seem to forget that, if you disbanded the Templars, she only slightly disproves unlike characters like Cass and Bull and some other that greatly disproves. If you recruit them, she says that it's good that you saved the ones that you did but that they will need proper management. After all, she agrees with you, and you will gain approval if you tell her that they are not the solution. She sees them as a tool, yes, but agrees they are not the fix to the problem. Again, things people seem to miss by not paying attention to what she says and how she reacts to certain events.
Also, Viv doesn't "fall into irrelevance during recruitment."
Remember, she invited US to a party that she was holding, and we already know how much sway and connections she has in Orlais. The only reason she came with us was because she wanted to have a hand in the fate of what was happening because she knew that it would ultimately end up effect mages and, by extension, herself. And, if we are being honest, Viv may be a lot of things but irrelevant will never be one of them. She would never allow that haha.
@@StrifeStalker love this conversation. Do you have a discord?
Honestly, at first I didn't like Vivienne at all, and took her for face value. But weirdly, after coming back to play this game again after being absent from it for 2 years since my first play (yep, I came late to the game), I found myself less compulsive in my perspective--less biased towards the perceptually obvious conclusions. And upon relearning the experiences of individuals without the circles, and those who Vivienne essentially represents, I found her to be quite reasonable. Incredibly, I also now find her to be quite a warm, friendly, funny, charming and sensible person. I consider her the closest friend to my Inquisitor now, and honestly, more than a few of her ambient remarks during gameplay are hilarious.
Before i began playing inquisition i had already seen clips of vivienne. mostly ending clips of what she did as divine. i then viewed her as the worst choice for a divine, but that was me before then.
later then i found out while playing the game, that she was actually a good person, smart even. watching this, she just wanted the best for her fellow mages (party banter), while keeping them in control (ending and trespasser ending).
i still don't like the fact of having her become divine, but instead of viewing her as a tyrant, i saw someone who chose what she thought was best for her mages (she gave them more freedom, but in a circle tower) and non-mages (remember mages can become abominations, which are uncontrollable)
I agree with you
I always liked the idea of mages who support the chantry. The oversimplification surrounding the existing issues with magic is so tiresome. Mages are dangerous, beyond any comparison, and world of Dragon Age has a realistic take on how people react to that. Until Inquisition, mages outside the circles were a relatively rare occurrence and up to that point we are witness to many examples of what out-of-control magic can cause. Prime examples in Origins being Connor and the circle tower. The second title, despite showing the worst of the Templars as well, still shows in abundance how dangerous magic can make people who are willing to abuse their gift, or maybe more importantly, are to weak willed to control it on their own. The institution of the circle is most definitely needed, just as a proper reform of its inner workings.
I love Vivienne. I said it before, but she's very much the Inquisitor's work mom. She's dignified and always looking out to make sure the inquisitor is at their best. Might disagree on her views, but she did set excellent points. I went from full throttle mage rebellion apologist to wanting something more in the middle because she made some excellent points.
Very well said. A lot of people seem to try and place Viv in a bubble of a self hating mage who is pro Templars and want all mages locked up, but that is never what she says and not what her actions state. In short, she stated that, by all mean, protest abuses at the hands of the Templars. Just dont do it in a way that says that mages support murder.
Her entire issue is how the rebel mages went about doing things without thinking of the consequences it would have on all mages, not the fact that they actually did something. Radical change rarely works, however, gradual change over time usually is more receptive to people and usually ends up lasting. Viv is a politician and sees this and is concerned that what the rebel mages did is going to set what acceptances mages did have back.
After all, its a very odd thing to do to give Circle mages more freedoms while leashing the Templars when she is made Divine if she was anti mage freedom and pro Templar. It, logically, doesn't make sense.
@@StrifeStalker Exactly. I couldn't make her Divine specifically because of h er own words. Vivienne pointed out a radical change won't work. A mage divine would be WAY too radical. I usually make non-stabby Leliana divine, making sure Vivienne has a lot of support from mages, Cassandra is rebuilding the Seekers and the inquisition remains. Leliana pushes the radical changes that need to be given a platform, Vivienne and Cassandra maintain the status quo mentality that its needed as a counterbalance and the Inquisition, and by extension an inquisitor PC, tends to be a mediator. Is it perfect? No. But Vivienne is a great mage leader. Political savvy, well connected, and caring of her charges.
Personal best example how good she is as a leader for mages, Waaaay better than Fiona, is when we open the door to a house in Redcliffe filled with skulls of the tranquil made into ocularum. She's disgusted and clearly mournful since she believed they would be safer with the rebel mages (considering her own forces of loyal mages was much smaller and less likely to be able to protect the tranquil from uppity templars). Of all companions, none of the mages had such a guttural reaction to it. It's small, two lines of dialogue but it conveys such a difference between her and say Solas or Dorian. She's a prime example of a bitch that cares. Kinda funny, but I feel if she was romanceable, people would compare her to Morrigan.
@@ac6418 I honestly feel like Viv's outward persona is part of 'The Game" of Olais because Viv states the point of the game is "to never let others see your true facade" and Cole calls Viv out on this. Part of their party banter is when Cole calls her out saying that she was actually concerned about him. Viv tries to play it off, but Cole says "No, you cared. The part of you that forgets I'm me cared. You want it to go away. You think caring makes you weak"
Viv has created "The Iron Lady" facade to protect herself. After all, it's hard to be hurt when you portray yourself as unbothered and uncaring. Most of Viv's character development and true mentality is hidden behind context clues and dialogue.
3:40 I bet Vivienne was surprised after the Trespasser Dlc
I love viv so much and i hate how many people do one quick glance at her character and hate her without ever really diving into who she is and why she holds the beliefs she does. Vivienne is such a unique and refreshing character and I will defend her to the moon and back.
no matter how low your approval is with Viv she still stays to help the inquistion because she knows that Corypheus must be defeated and no matter her relationship with the inqusitor she knows she has to save the world. And I think that showcases beautifully how she is a practical and caring person who is a willing to get the job done. Viv is a character to admire for sure.
She's fr in my like favorite companions of dragon age as a whole like she's up there with morrigan, Cole, Anders, fenris, and leliana.
What can I do for you my dear, I LOVE HER VERY MUCH 😁
i actually hated her calling me "my dear".
I wish there's an option to tell her to... stop calling me that.
It’s not that I hate her per say let’s just say I waited for a certain moment after my first big choice to recruit her..and I got to skyhold :3
I never thought that she didn't care, but I honestly believe that's not her priority.
Of course she's not happy if people die etc, but I think her true objective is to improve her own position and for a mage the only way to do that and be (barely) accepted is to be a Loyalist, imagine if the first mage Divine made the changes that Leliana makes as Divine Victoria.
Well, I mean, her first action as Divine was to give mages more freedoms and responsibilities while leashing the Templars so that doesn't really sound like someone who is only out to improve their own position.
Also, if you don't make her Divine, she actually turns the Circles into a political powerhouse after the events of Trespasser that sates "What the Circle lacked in numbers, they made up for in political connections; soon they were a force to be reckoned with."
Her goes is, ultimately, to give mages more political sway and leading by example. Like she says to a Rebel mage in Redcliff, "There are better ways than War to effect change"
@@StrifeStalker As I said I believe that she does care, so no I don't think that she's an heartless power hungry monster.
Still, I think that she likes power more.
She is smart and adept in politics and negotiating, I feel like her actions have as first objective that of keeping her in power so, as she says she can "keep doing what's best for everyone".
Things like allowing the College of Enchanters to exist without sending her Templars, despite it goes against her actions as she reinstated the Circle of Magi, is done more to avoid backlash then other reasons.
The fact that she likes power doesn't mean that she's going to randomly kill people or just sit on the sunburst throne doing nothing.
In the mean time, while she holds power she does what she believes is right as much as she can without threatening her position or slowing the growth of her influence.
@@user-ue4cp3yh2x Indeed. It will be interesting to see what happens in future instalments assuming they even acknowledge it. The majority of the time is seems choices get a mention in passing in later games but don't seem to hold any major/lasting effects. Suppose we shall just have to all wait and see what happens ultimately.
Vivienne gives me the impression of being insecure as opposed to power hungry. To be fair they both lead down the same path, but the importance is more in the motivation than the outcome.
Just think about it. She essentially has no family, raised in a circle by strangers. She lived through a blight.
She watched as the Ferelden circle collapsed (and was possibly annulled) because almost all the top mages had become abominations.
She would obviously be aware of Anders and the destruction of the Kirkwall chantry.
She watched on as Fiona, someone she once had faith in to do what was best for everyone, led the circles into open revolt and started a war.
Her own home, and most of the people she cares about most, were under great threat as Orlais spiralled into a bloody and protracted civil war.
Even in conversations this comes through. You can be a full-on freedom fighter for mages and still have her approval. She either approves or greatly approves of dialogue options relating to restoring peace, stamping out conflict, and supporting the chantry.
She also greatly approves of the Inquisitor telling her that once the conflict is over they will lay down their power and return the task of speaking for Andraste to the chantry. She knows that adding another powerful player to the political quagmire of Thedas will only make things worse. (And she is proven right in Trespasser) If she was simply power-hungry it would be a lot smarter to leave the Inquisition intact and powerful since it would bolster her own influence.
There’s some party banter between Vivienne and Solas that supports this view as well. At one point Solas point-blank accuses her of only helping the Inquisition to build her own power base and authority. She replies with something along the lines of “everyone else has failed so far. So yes, I may as well give it a try.”
During the first conversation with her, if you ask what she gets out of joining the Inquisition, she says she wants the chance to chart her own course and have a say in the reconstruction of society once the chaos is stamped out.
It’s also important to remember that Vivienne is 100% in support of Cassandra becoming the next Divine. She doesn’t even hint that she wants the job. The INQUISITOR has to be the one to bring it up, and even then she is skeptical. She isn’t power-hungry for the sake of having power.
Then there is the fear demon. His barb at her is aimed right at her insecurity. He basically tells her she’s too old to make a difference now.
Is Vivienne haughty? Very. But name anyone involved in the Orlesian court who isn’t.
Is she prideful? Oh yes.
Is she a potential tyrant? I doubt it. I think she wants power more as a means to feel secure than important. I think she really does believe that she has a vision that could improve the lot of everyone, not just mages or templars. I think she doesn’t want to ever again be in a situation where she is powerless to determine her own destiny.
Vivianne is my favorite character in this game, and actually one of the few companions I liked (I didn't like most of the cast, especially compared to DAO and DA2).
I actually like a lot her points of views, not many mages are aware of the dangers of magic, and just shout "Freedom".
She is always my choice for Divine.
Oh you heartless monster 😂 mage FREEDOM
I honestly don’t like her as a companion, no matter what I do she always seems to have negative disapproval, but I can definitely respect and appreciate her as a character. She’s well written, I’ll give her that for sure. And that’s what makes a good character, no? If we’re still debating it all these years later (hard to believe it’s been nearly a decade since this game came out)
the only problem with what vivienne is doing is she is centering so much power to her self the moment she dies you might have a (fnv)Caesar situation
I could potentially see that possibility but we also have to keep in mind that would be a major assumption because the story is still based on what Bioware chooses to do and I don't see that as something they are going to make occur. Especially considering that the majority of choices we make in the game is reduced to more so a casual mention or guest appearance in later games but rarely has any major effect on the story itself. It still Biowares game and so they story is going to always go in the direction it needs to in order to achieve their primary narrative. This is why, at the end of Trespasser, you still end up with a Circle of Magi and a College of Enchanters regardless of who is Divine. Even if you make Lil Divine, a Circle of Magi is still created after the events of Trespasser DLC.
She also approves if you don’t ask for anything in return for helping the refugees in the crossroads. And again, she approves if you tell Cullen to prepare a funeral for the tranquil, Maddox.
It's a shame so many people don't witness these key events that showcase that side of her.
I think Vivienne is wrong about the mages and circle. Generally people don't like being forced to do stuff.
I can see where she comes from though, she isn't advocating for the status quo.
She's wrong for the same reason a lot of our politicians are wrong when it comes to people in vulnerable positions - they've never really been there. Vivienne has not experienced the Circle as most mages have, and thus thinks it can't be all that bad if she was fine. It's not that she doesn't care, nor that she isn't right on several issues, it's that her view is very limited. "I'm a mage and I'm fine in the Circle, so every mage is fine in the Circle."
@@monicaspoor2993 Vivienne seems to be working towards giving other mages the same opportunities as she had in the Circle. She expresses how the circle has stuff they do wrong which she would address as Divine. I don’t see how her not having the same experience as others would make her wrong for the job; Vivienne seems to fit divine more compared to Leliana, an extremist who will divide Southern Thedas even more, and Cassandra, someone who has a good heart but isn’t qualified for the job.
Viv actually clearly states to you in Haven that the issues with the circles is that every mages experience was different. Their Templar’s were different and their politics unique and that ever mage had a different experience unique to themselves. She isn’t blind to what is going on just because her experience is different but she still realizes the circles are necessary for the training of mages and, as she also states in Haven, “Mages need the company of other mages. No one else can truly understand the challenges they face or see the world as they do”
Bob’s primary objective has always been to give the circles political sway and power which she ends up doing whether she is divine or not. That outcomes is shown at the end of Trespassers if she is not divine. She turns the circles into a political powerhouse with a lot of sway. Her goal is to work within the system to makes the lives of mages better, not tear the system down.
@@StrifeStalker exactly!
Many people say she’s keeping everything the same but the Chantry ban Mages from joining the chantry and from leadership roles but Vivienne, a mage, literally breaks those rules and now rules the chantry. She will allow mages with noble backgrounds their rights back and more for people middle and lower class.
Many also state how in the epilogue Cassandra leaves as an advisor because Viv “is disgracing the chant of light” but knowing Cass, who is traditionalist, would ofc see it as that because she didn’t even want a mage as divine in the first place. This was the same Chantry that have vilified mages throughout the ages and talk big about redemption yet don’t forgive and condemn mages for a crime they never did.
Vivienne is one of the few who have been able to turn the mage’s reputation, specifically in the imperial court, as more than just a jester and joke.
@@StrifeStalker I spent a little more time with her in this playthrough and she does improve upon better acquaintance. AND she's even more stylish than Dorian. I don't think she'll ever be my favourite, but I do sort of understand where she's coming from a little better.
That's why it isn't always black and white. I like Vivienne as a character a lot. It was interesting to have a mage actually being FOR the circle and not whining about being free. Most of the people don't like her because most of them are Mages > Templars and hate the circle. And of course because of her sassy attitute lol. But that woman was the enchanter for the empress, where you can't show any weakness or real kindness, its the game. Of course she has to seem like a cold hearted bitch to outsiders. But she DOES care. Cole states it many times.
I love Vivienne as a character. :)
Btw off topic: What armor is your inqy wearing? lol
It's the Enchanter or Battlemage Coat with the Battlemage Coat Arms and Battlemage Coat Legs upgrades.
Pretty much combine all the coats and you get this look :)
I feel like Vivienne wants what's best but it's hidden behind all that orlais political bullshit she does.
Exactly, and that’s what I have been trying to present and inform people on.
Viv informs the player via party chat that the intent of wearing a mask in the Orlais is that you never let others see your true facade because they can use that as a weakness against you. Cole then later points out that Viv cares but she hides it and wants to to go away because she thinks it makes her look weak. We also learn via Cole that, after Viv’s harrowing is when this new persona kind of went into effect because he reveals to us her thoughts were “no one will control me ever again” and even though this is vague and we don’t know who or what, specifically, she was referring to we know that Viv is not one that is easily controlled now.
The “Iron Lady” is her mask. It is the persona she portrays to the world to mask her caring nature and to ensure no one thinks they can control her. It is very much a political/cultural and survival mode for her.
It's understandable, Orlaisian nobility is a pit of snakes one always has to have his/her guard up at all time to prevent getting killed by a rival
Every Vivienne hater should watch this video with an open mind and realize how wrong they were about her.
Imo I think Lady Vivienne is a great character and a good friend to my Inquisitor. It is her views on mages that I disagree with, that is why I keep her away from power.
@@BossDragon3000 Well, I'm Pro-Circle just like her and her reforms as Divine are just perfect.
@@BossDragon3000 mages should not be free, chantry need mages, what if like Jowan in DAO, using blood magic....
@@BossDragon3000 Yeah, thats why im all for Divine Leliana and the College of Enchanters.
@@joytakejun To do nothing? Jowan didn't hurt anybody with blood magic (except for those templars that were attacking him and would presumably make him tranquil, so thats self-defense. Like, all he did was push them 😂). His actual crime is when he poisoned someone, which any assassin can do.
It's been years since I've played but I remember agreeing with her that mages needed a place to train and be around other mages. When I made Leiliana Divine and the mages made a College of Enchanters I was happy because that's what I wanted. Mages had a places or places where they can be free without the threat of death or Tranquility constantly hanging over their heads and they enjoyed unprecedented acceptance.
However, when Viv is made Divine she immediately goes to war with the College, this shows me she is in it for the political power and is only using her fellow mages. She doesnt really care, she might think she does but she doesn't; she just couldnt stand to see a mage organization that wasnt under her control so she tries to destroy it and force all mages to submit. Sure under her mages gain more political power, but let's be honest it's HER power. If she really cared she would have left the College alone and kept her Circle and then see which system works better.
Sure she might care here and there but not if it gets in the way of her authority.
Well, just a couple of things . .
Viv doesn't go to war with the college of enchanters, she stops an attempt at another mage rebellion from the mages who didn't want to initially return to the Circle. She basically prevents another war between the mages/templars. She still, however, gives the Circle mages more freedoms and responsibilities while also leashing the Templars.
Now, here is the other thing, at the end of the Trespasser DLC if you have Viv in charge, she actually allows the College of Enchanters to reform and it is said the the Circle and College coexist peacefully. Actually, it's the only scenario that directly says the two coexist peacefully.
The other thing is, regardless of what you do and who you make Divine, you will still end up with a Circle, Templars and College of Enchanters. Bioware made sure to make that the ending at the end of the Trespasser DLC regardless of who you made Divine and what that Divine did. In short, the only decision you really get to make is who will be Divine. Personally, with Viv as Divine I feel this is the best setup for a pro mage person (which I am despite what others might think) because it puts a mage in a position of power and grants the Circle and mages more political power and sway which is something they greatly need. Regardless, the outcome is the same no matter what because Bioware as so decreed.
"She grudgingly allowed them to remain as the College of Enchanters, as a mark of her regard for the Inquisition. For the next few years, the College and the Circle coexisted peacefully, if barely."
As Divine, she GRUDINGLY lets the free mages make the College, and the "peaceful existence is barely there, that means they are on the break of war. She does not stop another mage rebellion, she divides them and causes tension making way for a mage civil war. Whoever is Divine, Viv straight up splits the mages between the College and the Circle, with her as their leader obviously... In the base game she straight up destroys the College if made Divine. This is changed in the DLC to grudgingly lets them survive because of the Inquisition. Even the retcon she barely tolerates it in regards to the Inquisition.
If Leliana is Divine the DLC doesn't even mention the mages, that means the base game epilogue holds true here and the College gains mages widespread acceptance WITHOUT all the power going to Viv.
@@blazer168 correction, even if you have Lil/Cass in charge, you still end up with a Circle, College of Enchanters and Templars so, again, you haven't taken away from the fact that I said you are going to end up with a Circle, College of Enchanters and Templar order regardless and I will included those endings below at the very end of this.
Now, we can nitpick at the wording of "grudgingly" or "if barely" but it doesnt change the fact that it happens, a Mage is Divine and the Circle has more political power and Circle mages have more freedoms. Keep in mind that The College of Enchanters is simply the Fraternities of Enchanters. Its nothing really major and the game makes it out to be alot more than it is by not fully explaining it. In short, it is just a group of small mages (usually the first enchanters representing each fraternity) that meet and plan/make decisions on mage's needs based on the views of their particular faction's/fraternity's ideals and trying to find middle ground/compromise amongst themselves. Like a council of sorts. Those groups being . . .
Aequitarians - are the dominant faction in the College of Magi in general, and Ferelden's Circle in particular. They promote a moderate and popular viewpoint that mages must use their abilities in a responsible and ethical manner, regardless of Chantry law. Aequitarians believe that all mages should help people and follow a set of rules and ideals. In practice, this usually means operating within the more reasonable tenets of Chantry law. Known Aequitarians include Edmonde, Irving, Rhys, Sweeney, Torrin and Wynne. By 9 40 Dragon they are represented in the College of Magi by Rhys.
Isolationists - are a small group of mages who wish to separate themselves from the templars, the Chantry and even civilization altogether, both in order to practice magic without scrutiny and to ensure their powers do not negatively affect "ordinary" folk. Niall identifies with the beliefs of the Isolationists, though does not consider himself one of them.
Libertarians - desire the Circle to become an autonomous, self-regulating order without Chantry involvement at any level. While many Libertarians advocate the use of peaceful means to ensure their independence, such as a bill of secession they proposed to the College of Magi in 9 31 Dragon, at least one subgroup, the Resolutionists, are willing to pursue violent means to achieve their ends. Libertarians count Uldred, Adrian and Jeannot among their number, led by Fiona. By 9 40 Dragon they are represented in the College of Magi by Adrian.
Loyalists - follow the Chantry's word as it is written. They are often called "Chantry apologists" for accepting and enforcing the Chantry's and the Templars' ever-present supervision.
Lucrosians - prioritize the accumulation of wealth, with the gaining of political influence a close second. They are few in number.
Now looking at the strikingly difference of opinions and ideals, you can see how the College of Enchanters might not be the best at getting things done. The entire reason for the war that happened was because the Libertarians took it upon themselves to make a decision for all mages when the vote to rebel wasn't even carried out by all parties. But Fiona, as the Grand Enchanter, decided to do it anyway. So you can understand why Viv may have an issue with this because, so far, the College has not been successful in any of their endeavors really to date because they can never agree on a course of action.
So Viv is not attacking "free mages," she is specifically against the formation of fraternities that further divide the mage community.
**********************************************
Now onto the the DLC endings I was referring to that happen at the end of Trespasser
*Leliana Divine, Mages recruited as allies*
The end of the Inquisition as it had been sent shock waves through the College of Enchanters. Madam de Fer ably played on the mages' fear. Her followers united to build a new Circle - with Vivienne as its Grand Enchanter - in direct competition with the College. What the Circle lacked in numbers, they made up for in political connections; soon they were a force to be reckoned with.
*Leliana Divine, Mages recruited as conscripts*
With the Inquisition no longer the power it had once been, the mages who had been its Bright Hand were left to take up civilian lives. Some returned to the familiarity of the Circle under Vivienne's guidance as the newly elected Grand Enchanter. Most of the seasoned veterans formed a new College of Enchanters - a secular institution seeking opportunities for mages across the South.
*Cassandra Divine, Mages recruited as allies*
Some believed that the end of the Inquisition as it had been heralded the destruction of the fledgling College of Enchanters. Having clashed against the Circle, the College now found itself without support against the newly elected Grand Enchanter, Vivienne. Fortunately, Grand Enchanter Vivienne grudgingly agreed not to destroy its terrified leaders, as a personal favor to Divine Victoria.
*Cassandra Divine, Mages recruited as conscripts*
With the Inquisition no longer the power it had been, the College of the Bright Hand floundered. The newly elected Grand Enchanter Vivienne succeeded in pushing it into the margins of the Circle politics. No longer anyone's hands, its leaders reforged it as the College of Enchanters, breaking away completely from the Circle.
@@StrifeStalker This is the base game epilogue before the DLC
Vivienne is Divine, Alliance
In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order.
The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins.
Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant.
Vivienne is Divine, Conscription
In the end, they elect to leave the Inquisition and refuse Vivienne's demand that they join the reformed Circle of Magi.
However, this new mage rebellion does not last, as the Divine brings down her fury upon them.
Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant.
As you can see, before the DLC changed it to Viv begrudgingly leaving them alone she straight up attacks the College if she is Divine. She didn't do anything to them BEFORE the Mage Rebellion started, but if she's made Divine she attacks them.
As for the DLC epilogues, well....
Leliana Divine, Mages recruited as allies
The end of the Inquisition as it had been sent shock waves through the College of Enchanters. MADAM DE FER ABLY PLAYED ON THE MAGE'S FEAR. Her followers united to build a new Circle - with Vivienne as its Grand Enchanter - in direct competition with the College. What the Circle lacked in numbers, they made up for in political connections; soon they were a force to be reckoned with.
Right there, Viv is straight up fear mongering to get mages on her side, the Circles only happen here BECAUSE VIv made them happen.
Leliana Divine, Mages recruited as conscripts
With the Inquisition no longer the power it had once been, the mages who had been its Bright Hand were left to take up civilian lives. Some returned to the familiarity of the Circle under Vivienne's guidance as the newly elected Grand Enchanter. Most of the seasoned veterans formed a new College of Enchanters - a secular institution seeking opportunities for mages across the South.
Forced into an organization and war that you want no part of because you have no other choice, and are treated like shit all over again? No shit some mages went back to the Circles, at least there you're relatively safe and are treated well by your fellow mages. And hey look at that MOST of them still sought independence and freedom.
Cassandra Divine, Mages recruited as allies
Cassandra Divine, Mages recruited as allies
Some believed that the end of the Inquisition as it had been heralded the destruction of the fledgling College of Enchanters. Having clashed against the Circle, the College now found itself without support against the newly elected Grand Enchanter, Vivienne. Fortunately, Grand Enchanter Vivienne grudgingly agreed not to destroy its terrified leaders, as a personal favor to Divine Victoria.
Oh hey look at that even when Viv isn't Divine she only GRUDGINGLY agreed not to DESTROY the College, wow what a great person...
Cassandra Divine, Mages recruited as conscripts
With the Inquisition no longer the power it had been, the College of the Bright Hand floundered. The newly elected Grand Enchanter Vivienne succeeded in pushing it into the margins of the Circle politics. No longer anyone's hands, its leaders reforged it as the College of Enchanters, breaking away completely from the Circle.
Yeah, instead of working with other mages or trying to mend the rift between them she pushed them to the side and caused them to break away.
Also as a side not, I think Cassandra, while noble, just messes things up as Divine by taking a middle of the road approach and not really satisfying anybody.
@@blazer168 . . . . yes, I am fully aware and have stated all these things. You are still leaving things out because you are just looking at the parts pertaining, specifically, to the parts of who you allied or conscripted and not at the whole. So let me break this down a little to make it make sense. . . .
The Rebel mages are not ALL mages, they are specifically the group of mages that decided to rebel OR mages that had no place else to go and joined with the Rebel mages in Redcliff out of fear. They, again, are not all the mages out there and, again, not all mages wanted to rebel. Even the majority of the mages you can speak to in Redcliff will tell you this. Most were happy in their Circles because, again, not all Circles were bad.
The Epilogue also clearly states that Viv gives the mages of the Circles more freedoms and responsibilities. Meaning, mages that rejoined the Circles had these benefits. The mages that wanted to continue to rebel were brought to heel so to speak. Again, the entire point of the Inquisition was to restore Order and get things back under control. So, if you have a group out there still attempting to cause issues, that is problematic. So, once more, Viv's issue is not with ALL mages . . . it's with the ones who are trying to keep tensions/war going and making them all (mages) look bad. She still gives the mages in the Circles more freedoms while also leashing the Templars. Viv is trying to give the Circles more political power and sway and, by extension, Mages.
Regardless, at the end of Trespasser, you still end up with a College of Enchanters regardless of if she does this "guardingly" or not. Doesn't change the fact that they are there. Thus, by putting Viv in charge, you have a Mage Divine, a Circle with more freedoms and mages having more responsibilities, Templars who are leashed and put in check AND a College of enchanters. For a player who is "pro mage" this would logically be the best mage outcome. Most people can't see past the fact that they just don't like Viv and that is mostly due to their misunderstanding of her character.
But, back to my point, it doesn't matter what you do in the game because Bioware still ensures that at the very end when it is all said and done regardless of who you make Divine, you STILL end up with all three; Circle, Templars and College of Enchanters.
Also, once more, the College of Enchanters is just the new name for the Fraternity of Enchanters which is nothing more than a council/committee that get together and meet up and try to find equal grounds amongst the various fraternity groups within the Mage community.
You also failed to point out that you have similar issues if you put Cass in charge. The person that has no issues at all would be Lil but then her issues are more within the Chantry itself.
******************************
*Alliance*
Cassandra is Divine
In the end, they refuse Cassandra's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order.
The College, they say, will allow mages of the South to gather in peace and seek new solutions to age-old problems.
From the beginning, the College and the Circle have clashed - and some fear it will lead to a new war of the mages upon themselves.
*Conscription*
Cassandra is Divine
In the end, they accept Cassandra's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi, but as a new college called the Bright Hand.
It is not long before this new college dominates, pushing for reform and close ties to the Inquisition.
Rumors begin to circulate of a split within the Circle, a shadow war against the new college by unknown forces.
***********************
So, please stop trying to make it seem like Viv is the only person that has some sort of issue/conflict with the Mages if Made Divine. At least with her the Circles get more freedoms and the templars are leashed.
I cannot stand Solas. Vivienne is justified.
There's a distinct level of misogynoir that seems to follow Vivienne around. I think between that, and the fact that she's not an LI (meaning we don't get a lot of time exploring that she's got a soft side) amounts to a lot of surface level reading with her.
Bear in mind, I'm firmly in the 'abolish the circles' camp. I thoroughly disagree with like 90 percent of her points. But I can see from her perspective on this
Wouldn't be surprised if there's racism there to. I remember people bitching about how "ugly" she was, complaining about her lip size etc.
@@maiadraconica6488 Yep, that's why I went with misogy-'noir'. There's a specific type of misogyny that intersects with also being black. See any media about Serena Williams or Michelle Obama. Some positive coverage, but a lot of really gross, virulent stuff too.
@@ashleypaulsell3762 I completely missed the "noir" part xD. People were bitching soooo hard about how ugly the female characters in inquisition was during pre launch, it was disgusting.
@@maiadraconica6488 Of course there were. Not a one of the female characters leaned overtly into 'fanservice' tropes, looks wise. IMO, Madame Vivienne is the most stunningly gorgeous women I've ever seen in a video game, and anyone who critiques a black woman looking realistically black is dumb.
@@ashleypaulsell3762 . Relly people said that of Vivianne, personally I think she is really beautiful.
Vivienne makes a better divine then liliana and Cassandra she knows how to work it better then most and can dodge certain land minds of politics
I can't stand her personality. And the way she treats the mages that don't come from Circles is pure prejudice. The peace she brings to the world as Divine is nothing more than tyrannical, something even Cassandra admits. She has social privileges that she conveniently seems to ignore, while her fellow mages are being persecuted and treated like quasi-abominations. For my political, moral and ethical point of view, I think Vivienne is despicable and objectively the worst possible Divine, contrasting with an Inspired Leliana, the best.
I think it comes down to personal preference because, honestly, each person who can be divine has their own issues that arise. I will say this, saying that Viv does not car for mages outside of the circle is not entirely accurate. She actually expresses in haven that her concern is for all mages because the Rebel mages move has made it dangerous for everybody. She states that their decision has created fear and that this fear is going to make matters worse. She even says that "by all means, protest abuses at the hands of the Templars. Just don't do it in a way that says mages support murder. She will also tell you in Skyhold (if you have negative approval with her) that her concern is for her fellow mages because she doesn't want to see people in angry modes hunting them down out of fear. She also shows a lot of concern for the Tranquil when you take her to Redcliff and open the shed that has the Tranquil skulls. The other thing I will point out is that she actually gives the Circles mages more freedoms and responsibilities while also leashing the Templars when she is made Divine.
Viv's supports the circles because, as she tells you in Haven
"Mages need the company of other mages. No one else can truly understand the struggles we (mages) face or see the world as we (mages) do"
So, her support of the circle is to give mages a place to be able to be with others of their kind to learn without fear or judgment. She also turns the Circle into a political powerhouse and, by extension, gives the circle more Political power which is something they had many many many years back but that was pretty much taken away due to the fear of magic.
I will say that Viv can come off a little snobbish but, honestly, that's because she is Orlesian and they are all like that. However, it can never be said that she doesn't care for her fellow mages because it is pointed out constantly throughout the game.
But, again, it mostly comes out to personal preference. I'm pretty sure that, much like with most of our decisions, they are not going to have any lasting effect because, even at the end of the Inquisition DLC, you still end up with a Circle and a College of Enchanters no matter who you make as Divine.
@@StrifeStalker Ok. I still think she have a "conditional" care. And it's easy to say she's concerned by everybody else's hostile reaction to mages, when she is, in fact, saying the rebel mages are guilty for that, and not the previous repression. I got her angry at me for allying with the mages and standing for fair treatment of them inside the Inquisition. She is the first to say mages are inherently bad and need to be taken away for people's safety. If people are not like her, raised and trained in a Circle, she treats them like abominations or uncapable little magic bombs. She's close minded, full of prejudice and only care for those who think as she does. I don't know if you know about this concept, but the way she thinks about mages is the same way some gay people that suffer from internalized homophobia think about other gays, or how some middle class citizens defend the rich and despise the poor.
@@GabrielPassarelliG I mean, if we are being honest Cass gets angry at you for showing fair treatment to the Rebel Mages too. Also, keep in mind the Rebel mages are not ALL mages, they have the ones who chose to rebel. Remember the the decision was not unanimous but Fiona chose to let the motion stand anyway. There are quite a few mages in Redcliff you can talk to that tells you they are not happen with the the decision.
Also, another difference is, if you disbanded the Templars Cass disproves but Viv actually slightly approves. You have to pay attention to how Viv acts, not what she says. For example; On the attack on Haven as you are trying to escape Viv will say that you dont have time to save everyone but, if you manage to actually do it, she approves. You will also gain approval with her if you show remorse in Skyhold for the loss of lives and not being able to save everyone.
So, its not conditional, its hidden. After all, I just feel like someone who was a self hating mage wouldn't actually grant them with more freedoms. That makes no sense.
Either way, it mostly comes down to perspective and what a person sees or chooses to see. A lot of Viv motivations and real feeling are hidden in subtext and actually paying attention. Lets not forget that if you allied with the rebel mages and make Cass Divine that they actually rebel again and cause tension in the Circle. The only scenario that works with them is if you put Lil as Divine. So lets not say that Viv is the issue when, in all honestly, the Rebel Mages cause issues with everyone except for Lil but then Lil has her own set of problems as well to deal with.
Solas: "I never claimed mages should be above the law."
Vivienne: "No darling, you merely implied it while offering no suggestions for improvement."
This reminds me of a lot of arguments and discussions over real world issues lol. People wanting something to change but then offering no real solutions or when they do the other side disagrees on that being an actual good solution. I really love the writing in this game! I hope DA4 is just as good if not better.
I mean, if you are a customer eating a meal and its shit, you don't have to advise the chef how to improve it. You can criticize things for being the shits that they are. You'll also find that a lot of people do offer alternatives and solutions for improvement, but that they are often drowned out by existing institutions and people in power. The Chantry and Templars actively hunt down and destroy any possible alternative, and have a monopoly over legal magic institutions as well as law enforcement.
I think you just solidified the point being made; it’s easy to find fault and criticize a situation without offering reasonable solutions.
Let’s take your scenario for example. Yes, you could easily criticize the food and say that it was shit and then offer no insight as to why you felt that way. And now, the chef has no idea how to fix it because he doesn’t know what the issue is and so other people might suffer the same result because you didn’t offer your input. However, had you said “it was too salty,” The chef now knows the potential issue and knows maybe he needs to use less salt Thereby fixing the problem for you in the future and anyone else who might order that dish. So, yes, it is better to offer a potential solution if you were going to criticize something because, if not, there really is no point saying anything at all.
It easy to criticize, it’s harder to problem solve.
I really love how DAI companions are so diverse :
1. Cassandra : Harsh, strong independent woman that look atrong outside but actually warm inside..
2. Blackwall : looks like a perfect man, with kind heart, but actually makes mistakes in the past and try to change (he represent so many of us)
3. Ironbull : the easygoing guy, the glue guy, that always attract attention whenever he goes (we all have a friend like this, that like to be the center of attention)
4. Solas : the nerd, the old school person (we all have a friebd like this too) but actually he is the mastermind of everything that happen on the world WOW! Solas grwo from the least interesting character, to the deepest character writing in the whole game
5. Dorian : narcist guy, that always think he is handsome and cool, doin everything just to look cool
6. Vivanne : typical noble woman, think she is better than anyone else, and arrofant too (but i really like her, because thats just how people in this world, not everyone is agreer with you, not everyone is kind and good, sometimes we have bad friends too)
7. Cole : one word "CONFUSE"
8. Varric : smart-ass, he is actually so smart, and genius IMHO, and he like to show his "smartness" to others too..
9. Sera : rebellious, weird, but actually want peace and want goodness... Everytime I see her, make me remember hippies in 60-70's america.. that view the world with different view from others...
There's nothing misunderstood about her. She is a counselor to the empress, mistress to a power broker, independently wealthy... she's not worried about any templars because her interactions with them are different than being chased. Her disgust and apprehension come from other things, and other people - those who will not heed her will, against whom she uses the full might that she may have at her disposal.
That’s not entirely accurate.
Cole points out via party banter when he looks into her mind a few times at the abuses and even racism she has endured in Orlais and in the circle. He also references her harrowing because that was the point when Viv decided she would “never be controlled again”
Viv also points out that mages have the right and even agrees they should protest abuses at the hands of the Templars but just don’t do it in a way that makes all mages look bad or that they condone murder. Viv is actually for change but within the realm of “protocol” so to speak. She wants to create change in the system, not burn it all down. She is very political, yes, but she isn’t anti mage or pro Templar. You actually gain approval with her if you disbanded the Templars and she agrees that they are not the solution but are still a useful tool to deal with demons and abominations.
@@StrifeStalker it is entirely accurate that what she cares about is threats to her power, including the Templars. Her recommendation to “protest” abuses is entirely disingenuous because in general those who would have the most cause to protest are those least empowered to do so (e.g. the Tranquils). It’s all about her and her alone, as you very well mention.
@@logseman5959 again, not accurate and I am almost tempted to believe that you didn't watch the very video you are commenting on or you would have seen quite a few of the time she showed she cared about others which negates your primary argument. Not to mention that this is just the highlights, there is actually a video that's almost an hour long that shows all the times she showcased she cared for others. The only one clip I think I didn't get is the one where she express her concern for her fellow mages being hunted by angry mods. The only reason why I don't have that clip is because you have to have a rather negative approval with her by the time you reach Skyhold. However, I you do, she express to you that her concern is for her fellow mages because she does not want to see them hunted down by townspeople in angry mods due to an increased fear of magic and mages.
Also, just a statement, someone can wish to collect power and influence but that does not mean that they wont use that power to help others. If made Divine one of the first things she does is leash the Templars and gives mages more freedoms and responsibilities than ever before. The fact that she does this is a direct controdiction to the basic argument that most people have that she is pro Templar and anti mages. Seem rather counter productive to give more freedoms to the people you feel should be locked up and confined, doesn't it?
A lot of people say "Vivian acts like a villain but she's a good person" I disagree. Sure she has her human side..but she quite delibrately buries that. She IS a villain....if she doens't turn up as such in 4 i'm going to be more than a little surprised. She just happens to be on our side at the time, so in an effort to sympathize, the audience finds themself sympathizing with the 10% human instead of the 90% evil bitch. This is highlighted when she describes her Harrowing and how the Pride demon she confronted just turned aside and laughed.
Okay, so, a couple of key things. . .
She has not buried her human side, it's still present and this selection of clips shows that.
You, and many others, fail to realize she is Orlesian and, as she has pointed out and if you have read "The Masked Empire," the entire point of "The Game" is to never let others see your true façade. The purpose of this is so that others can not use your weaknesses against you. As Cole points out, Viv is a caring person but she wants it to go away because she thinks it makes her weak. The Viv that you see and how she acts (The Iron Lady) is the façade. That is the mask she has created in order to endure and to advance in a society that would not normally give a mage the time of day. Again, all part of the Game.
Also, when made Divine, she does gives mages more freedoms and responsibilities which doesn't seem very villain like and also goes against the idea that she wants all mages locked up in towers and restricted. I mean, seems rather counterproductive wouldn't you say?
Also, yes, she told Solas that many Pride demons have walked away laughing but that wasn't tied to her harrowing, that was just a conversation that she had with him during party banter. In regards to her actual harrowing and how that went, this is that conversation which doesn't deal with a pride demon but of Viv's fear of being controlled again. The word -Again- being the key word in that meaning she felt controlled before but we do not know yet what that entails.
The conversation via party banter about Viv's harrowing:
Cole: She’s afraid!
Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will control me ever again.
Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I’m me.
Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them.
Vivienne: Delightful
Also, every one of the characters embody a Sin of sorts. Solas' name literally means "arrogance" in the Elven language and I'm pretty sure by now we can all see that fits. At least Viv didn't plan on trying to destroy the world because she felt that was the only way to fix a mistake she made. So, who really has the more villain like qualities again?
She may be a bitch, but she is not not an evil bitch definitely, otherwise she would have joined the Venatori (who are truly evil), or she would've gone into a murdering rampage like many blood mages in order to get what she wants. Neither she is planning destroy the world unlike a petulant egghead.
I feel like if it wasn't for viviennes snobbiness, her spoiled attitude, and her ignorance of other people's suffering id like her more.
Basically she slept her way into a position of power that let her live outside the circle and she's like "lol just get better other mages, you should all be trapped in there"
And by God the arrogance that she knows better than others
However, I don't hate her and sera as much as I used to, we just have far better companions like dorian, cole, and bull
.....Um, she didnt sleep her way anywhere. She turned a position at court that used to be little more than a court jester into one of more so an adivsor to the Empress. She also had already made a name for herself in the mage community and circles because she was the youngest mage to ever become a First Enchanter. She was also so skilled and talented that the other mage fraternities all wanted her to join their side. So, no, the Duke had nothing to do with anything she has managed to get. Also, she isnt arrogant... she is Orlisian... its a cultural thing.
She is also the only companion that will talk to you at length regardless of your opinion. She is not trying to say she knows better than you, she is trying to get you to think outside of the box and see that things are not just black and white. For example, if a Dalish elf says that their clans have no use for Templars, through continued conversation she makes an elven mage inquisitor realize that the clans mitigate the dangers of magic by not allowed more then 2 mages to be in a clan at a time. Each clan has a First and Second and if another mage is born they are sent to another clan in need of a First or Second If their are no clans in need then that mage is exiled and left to fend for themselves. The elf you can speak to in Haven that accepts the research items you collect confirms this if you talk to her at length and tells you that is what happened to her
She is one of the few characters, currently, in the series that actually will have rational and logical conversations with you in regards to the things going on and try to get you to think.
Side note, I still cant stand Sara tho haha
But morrigan acting like a POS most of the original dragon age game is ok?
I don't even care if she loved me, and thought I was the raddest dude. They way she treats people she deems as beneath her is cruel.
Her lust for power is her main motivation. She may be a human under that, and she may not be evil, and she even right alot of the time. But her superiority is too much for me to handle. Last time I played, I left her behind, and enjoyed the game much more.
That said, a fantastic and we'll written Character. All in saying is, I didn't see varric invite Vivienne to play wicked grace.
I swear, it's like people have forgotten about Morrigan all through the events or Origins. **shrugs**
@@StrifeStalker morrigan wasn't a pampered noblewoman. She lived a hard life and learned hard lessons in the wilds. It makes sense, and for the most part, she made sense.
Vivienne is just cruel because she believes herself better and correct. And she did all of what she did for power, not for any other reason. Just because she's not a downright evil person, and has moments when she cares, doesn't mean she's a good person.
Also, I noticed your liked your own comment. Big nice.
@@theelderworm9134 I was attempting to not get into this conversation at length because I have answered this comment countless times and it get redundant when people refuse to look at parallels, context clues and facts. So, I guess I will have to do my extended answer instead of keeping it simple.
I brought up Morrigan because, throughout Origins, she was rather rude, inconsiderate and often times mean. Especially if you did something she didn't agree with like take the time to save anyone. You almost always lost approval with her if you did anything that would be consider just being a decent human being. Including her wanting to leave the mages in the Circles to die because she felt it was their own fault for them being in the position they were in. She also only originally joins you for power in the guise of the "old god baby" and she also will leave the party before the final battle if you do not do it. Yes, her tone changes based on your relationship with her, slightly I might add, but it still doesn't change all that much. Also, if you do have the old god baby and she fights along side you . . . . she will still up and leave in the pursuit of more power/knowledge after it's all over. Even if you are in a romantic relationship with her AND she takes the child with her. Now, you mentioned that is because of her upbringing and so this is acceptable.
Viv is, culturally, Orlesian. The way she acts and how she presents herself is a cultural thing. This is basically her "upbringing" and "how she was raised." If you read the book "The Masked empire" you get a more in depth look at Orlais and their culture, much more than we get from our brief encounter with it during Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. The primary point of The Game is to never let others see the true you or your true feelings because they might use it against you. It is also a battle of wits. Cole basically points out that Viv cares but she wants it to go away because she thinks it is a weakness. As such, she tries to hide that side of her. This is the Mask she wears, "The Lady of Iron." It is also hinted that this persona took root after her harrowing which Cole points out because her thoughts at that time were "no one will ever control me again" and, while we do not know exactly what that entails, we know that she felt controlled or hindered prior.
Throughout the game we get subtle moments of Viv showing her caring nature which I compiled in this video even though I left out quite a few things which are in the longer version that is over an hour long with this one meant to be more so a highlights video.
So, yes, I have a hard time with the argument that it was okay for Morrigan to act a certain way because "she lived a hard life and had to face hard lessons" or "because of how she was raised" and yet people fault Viv for the very same situation. The only difference is it's not because of her mother or being in the wilds but simply because of the society she grew up in and her attempting to adapt and excel in that environment. To say that such behavior is okay for one character and not for the other is hypocritical.
Also, even in Inquisition, Morrigan is still out for herself in trying to gain more knowledge and power via the well of sorrows and is quite disrespectful to the Guardians there in order to get to her end goal. Meanwhile, if made Divine, Viv leashes the templars while giving the Mage more freedoms and responsibilities than ever before while also turning the Circle into a political power. So, who is really out for their own power again seeing as how Viv gaining more power helps a group where as Morrigan gaining power only helps herself?
@@StrifeStalker I have read all the books. I know all about the culture. You have said nothing I didn't already know.
Difference is, morrigan does have a character arc. Vivienne barely does.
Vivienne as divine, I strongly disagree she's a better option than the others. Her reforms are not reforms, they are status quo, with a few bandaids. It's a reset to how it was a few hundred years ago. Better in mages in some, but who still holds their leash? Vivienne.
Yeah, morrigan was a bitch. But as you befriend her, you learn that she merely keeps her soft side hidden, having been taught that she would die otherwise.
I am fully aware that Vivienne is a we'll written Character that makes sense. I'm saying, she also a bad person, who cares only a little about people and her own power.
Morrigan is a good person, under all her show. She dislikes moral choices because she sees them as ways to get yourself needlessly killed, or a waste of effort.
Vivienne dislikes the same thing, because such trivialities are beneath her.
Morrigan actually opens up and can become a valued friend. Yes, she after her own power too. But I don't see her using it in any negative way. No one is in any real danger of morrigan, unless they directly oppose her.
Why TF we talking about morrigan anyway? Shes a totally different character lol.
The only thing they have in common is they act rude and are mages.
But if all that isn't enough for you, let me cement this forever.
All bald mages are untrustworthy.
Name me a single bald mage, excluding Vivienne as she's the topic of discussion, who did not betray you, practice blood magic or be generally evil. Name them, and I will announce Vivienne as my 8th favorite character.
@@theelderworm9134
I am going to again try and keep this as simple as possible while touching on key things as to not escalate this further. The tone is taking on more one of anger/hostility and you are starting to limit your arguments to physical appearances and I try to keep my comments free of negativity if possible.
Starting with Morrigan . . .
The reason why she was brought up is because there are a number of individuals who are Team Morrigan but then hate Viv. This is especially interesting and hypocritical because the two share various similarities and parallels with the primary difference being their views on the Circles. This, unfortunately, is not something I can help you with because this involves critical thinking and rational thought and, if you cannot see such similarities on your own, there is little I can do to assist you in that endeavor.
As far as Viv and her character development, this I can agree on. The developers did not do a good job of developing her in the ways others are usually done which is via their personal quests. Viv’s character development, on the other hand, is reliant on you taking her along during key points, party banter, reactions, extensive dialogue options and multiple playthroughs. The latter because there are certain things that only a mage will hear and others that a non-mage will hear that adds to the puzzle.
There are also a lot of key reactions that I will briefly touch on, however. Like, how she will tell a rebel mage in Redcliff that there are better ways than war to effect change. Like how you gain approval with her if you save everyone in Haven. Like how you will gain approval with her if you show remorse for not being able to save everyone. Like how you will gain approval with her if you wish the couple during their marriage in Orlais that you help get together via the war table mission a happy life together and to make a name for themselves. Like how you gain approval if you spare Calpernia’s life after she find out the Elder One’s plans and tell her to go back to Tevinter and try to change things for the better. There are so many subtle details like this that I cannot and do not have the time to even begin to get into.
Now let’s talk of the status quo and leashing the Mages. It is explicitly said that she leashes the templars while giving the mages more freedoms and responsibilities. Again . . . more freedoms and responsibilities. This action alone goes against the status quo that has been established since status quo means “the existing state of affairs, especially regarding social or political issues.” Her actions go against that very definition since it changes what has been in place for many, many years. Well before Viv even came into the picture and there has never been a mage Divine. And, even a few hundred years back, the Circles have never had political power or much mage freedoms. At least not in areas outside of Tevinter. Also, she supports Cass as Divine over Lil.
Viv primary issue is that she understands and knows that nothing will change if people continue to fear magic and the people that can wield it, mages. Her goal is to showcase that mages are not a threat and are just the same as everyone else. She also understands that mages need the company of other mages and need to be trained hence her desires for the circle. As she said “Mages need the company of other mages. No one else can truly understand the challenges we face (mages) or see the world as we do. She also states that she sees templars as a useful tool but not the solution and only slightly disapproves if you disband them. Unlike Cass and some others who greatly disprove.
As far as your “bald mage” remark, I direct your attention to the events of Dragon Age 2. During those events we met several mages, with hair since that seems to be the important factor here, that were problematic. I direct you to the mage that killed Hawk’s mother as a primary example, and I do not feel the need to go further since much of the game was you dealing with blood mages and Templars so you should know these things on your own. Again, mages with hair. I will not even touch on Anders since perhaps you feel his actions were okay since you didn’t mention him at all. Having hair or not having hair has nothing to do with intention or character and is a frivolous and shallow argument.
So, allow me to cement this for you now . . .
Nothing in this universe is ever just black and white and sometimes the person you like the least ends up doing the most good in the long run. I direct you to Bhelen Aeducan and the events with the Dwarven Kingdom. Dragon age does a good job of trying to get you to look at the facts and subtexts and use critical thinking to understand and rationalize that not everything is always as it seems. As Viv states, “reality does not change based on one’s feelings.” In this world Demons are real, blood magic is a factor and abominations are a thing. An untrained mage can bring about great destruction even if done unintentionally, as with what happened with Connor and the events of Redcliff.
The point of any of these videos is to showcase some things that players may have missed or did not originally think about in hopes of them perhaps seeing some of the larger picture. It will do nothing for anyone who is solidly stuck on their opinion and unwilling to look at the larger picture and see that maybe there was a bit more to see than they realized.
So what she cares ? She doesnt support rebelion . She plays safe thinking she will have any favours after its over and mages lose . I wish templars abuse her so she finally open her eyes and side with her people but she has to earn their trust now. Her change from “mages should be controlled “to “i will slay any templar i spot “ will be epic . Just imagine her losing her “noble” attitude and do anything to help casual people trying to redemption . Viv travelling the suers To ambush Templars , viv working on the field for people after her magic being exhausted healing some pandemic . Losing all her grace to show mages are not the ones you should be afraid of
Imagine viv bringing some revel mages to templars expecting reward for being loyal and templar captain responds with “loyal ? Ha you aint even loyal to your own kind, chain her “ and she is prisoner with her magic tamed by some kind of jewellery or something for YEARS . And rebel mages attacks the keep to rescue mages And they dont wanna save her . But one mage says “she is one of us no matter what we dont leave ours” and they save her anyway and she finally open eyes.
. . Where to being.....
Okay, first and foremost, she does not support rebellion because, as she tells a Rebel mage in Redcliff "There are better ways than war to effect change." This is because the Rebellion is causing needless death as well as causing more fear. Keep in mind the reason why Mages are treated the way they are is out of fear of magic and the fact that mages can be possessed by demons. As such, doing things that would cause more people to fear mages annoys Viv. Her goal is to work within the system to create lasting change by showing mages do not need to be feared. That has been her entire platform. She wants to create lasting/willing change and not something that feels "forced"
She also wants to give more political power to the Circles and, by extension, to the mages. Right now Mages can not hold power and, if they are born in a position with a title, they loose that. Viv also tells you that she has suffered insult by those in the Armor (Templars) but just as much by normal every day people. She also tells you that the Templars are a useful tool but not the solution. She also only *slightly* disproves if you disband the Templars.
Also, keep in mind that the very first thing Viv does if made Divine is to leashes the templars while granting Mages more freedoms and responsibilities. This is a very important thing to take notice of because, if she was Pro Templar/Anti-Mage rights, that decision makes absolutely no sense at all to fit with that narrative. She also makes it known to you in Haven (if you actually speak to her at length and play a non mage inquisitor) that the Circles are necessary for training and that . . .
Viv: "Mages need the company of other mages. No one else can truly understand the challenges we face or see the world as we do"
As we have seen in Origins, an untrained mage can cause a lot of damage if not properly trained even if they have the best intentions at heart. (Conner in Redcliff)
We also see that magic can be extremely dangerous if in the wrong hands or abused which we see in the Circle in Origins as well as various points in DA2. After all, a mage kills Hawke's mother and various other women in the city and reanimates the body. There are also numerous blood mages you meet during your time there so lets not pretend that all Mages or Innocent just like not all Templars are bad.
lmao what an idiot
Solas the hypocrite strikes again