La Verdadera Destreza - Spanish Sword Form (Before, During, After)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.พ. 2012
- This is a basic thrusting form we created derived from Pachequistan Destreza. The structure is based on Spanish fencing timing (before, during, & after) and we included second intention attacks by conclusion and circular cut. A more conservative version of the same form would replace the conclusion/circular cut with a thrust of the quarter/half/full circle during the adversary's defensive movement.
Full details on the form can be found on the Destreza Translation and Research Project web site.
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UPDATE (July 12, 2012): In response to user feedback I want to address the lengths of the transverse steps taken to attack especially with regards to the "during". Is a long step correct and appropriate?
For an example of long attacking steps consider Ettenhard's Compendium Treatise 3, Chapter 4. (Reference images X, XI, and XII)
From Measure of Proportion the diestro strikes into the adversary's preparation with a single step transverse left and then exits on a new diameter (Images X and XI). Ettenhard does not mention a gaining step used to pre-load in this case and in practice the extra time required to pre-load with a gaining step is too costly. In fact, Ettenhard tells us, "...because it should be executed with all the speed possible and exiting afterward to the Measure of Proportion,..."
With this evidence, we believe that attacks that take place in the during may correctly be executed with a single long transverse step.
In contrast, if the adversary has stepped forward to deliver the final movement of the attack, your own step can be smaller which is what we try to reflect in the video and is consistent with image XII in Ettenhard's text.
The best advice for step lengths I have found is Ettenhard's from the Compendium Treatise 2, Chapter 4 which can be found translated into English on our site. - กีฬา
This is simply magnificent. I have new fencers in my group who are interested in pursuing spanish rapier, and this video, among others of yours, has been a great jumping off point. It's great to see it all in action.
Thanks for posting this Puck. I like the progression built into it and plan on making heavy use of it.
Durante 300 años dominamos el mundo.
I think it is an art versus sports discussion and while the SCA's rules present some issues I often think of it as a non-cooperative antagonistic test bed for technique covering a wide range of experience levels. I often fail in spectacular fashion and the challenge there is to understand whether the failure was individual practice or a shortcoming in the rules which create artifacts and unrealistic emphasis. In my experience\opinion, good training trumps bad rules most often.
Avanzando el movimiento en el 0:56, fotograma a fotograma, se ve la sutileza y la eficacia en los movimientos y que tan importante es la guarda de la espada en eso.
Thanks for the feedback Jose. Take a look at the video's description and you will find the basis for the footwork and the places\distances in this drill which starts at medio de proporcion and ends in a single step at medio proporcionado. In the form for medio tajo y medio reves we use an atajo and then step into medio proporcional. You can search on Google Books for Ettenhard's text "Compendio de los fundamentos de la verdadera destreza..."
That's the problem: ¨in a single step¨. And you are supossed to step allways in medio proporcional gaining the medio propio or when it comes by himself in medio apropiado. Furthermore, in this video you are jumping into conclusión but conclusión its suposed to be a consecuence of medio apropiado. If you seek a conclusión by using atajo and steping into circulo propio of your oponent in tercer/cuarto camino not finishing in contraposición de aspectos , you sure will get killed (touched). I know Ettenhard, but its just that ¨compendio de fundamentos¨ ¨the basics¨. Seriously, try Rada. He did a deeper review of Destreza than Ettenhard.
I have to say that i didn't notice the date of this video, and im pretty sure that you will have improved your skills in this two years, but i can't agree with the execution of the techniques you are explaining here.
Well, it's just my opinion and i can't say I'm an expert, only one more student of Destreza. I hope not to seem too much annoying.
Jose David Blazquez No, not annoying at all and I like critical feedback.
Still, is this execution a valid part of the tradition? I think the answer is, 'Yes." You will find specific examples of each of the longer steps inside the books which indicates that they are part of the tradition. Rada comes much later and I think he is the last great master before the French corrupt the tradition but there is quite a bit more material out there to review with good examples.
Single step?
Consider Ettenhard's opposition to the Reves in his Compendio in Treatise 3, Chapter 4. At MdP he strikes by thrust with a transverse step in the first or second movement of the opponent's attack. There is a single step executed in the time called the 'during' which must be done very quickly or the diestro will be struck.
Circular cuts in second intention?
Consider Pacheco's advice in Grandeza (p.89) when he stands at MdP and uses the advantage of right angle to launch a thrust based solely on the adversary's bad position (iron gate) by attacking with a single step. From there he moves on to second intention avoiding the desvio with a circular thrust (p.90), and then (p.91) in third intention he wounds with a reves. He continues to wound in fourth intention (p.92) with a thrust.
He continues from there but consider the principle. If you are closer than MdP, one valid opposition to the desvio is either a circular cut (tajo) or a circular reverse (reves) in the next intention. Here we see the idea of cutting in the next intention in the during time of the adversary's desvio is certainly part of the tradition.
Conclusions formed during the adversary's desvio or pressure?
When the adversary attempts a desvio we also have examples of conclusions executed. In New Science consider Pacheco's opposition to the Zambullida during in which he passes under the angle to perform a movement of conclusion. In the same way, the movement of conclusion is used against the desvio in the response to the Llamar. Both of these examples show that when the opponent pushes into your sword you can execute a movement of conclusion.
I think Rada is a good author, but he isn't the only author.
Real sword play...Congratulations Maestro!
If you're referring to the "Hup!" that is the instructor giving a tempo queue to the student. The instructor uses a "Hup!" to indicate to the student when the attack should land.
Spanish fencing seems more rotational while Italian fencing seems more linear. As in you terms to move sideward around your opponent as opposed to forward and backwards. How accurate is this assessment?
Timothy Heimbach Coming from somebody who practices Spanish rapier. You summed it up quite nicely. Also Spanish is a bit more defensive and takes full advantage of the Rapier's length, favoring geometrically studied and controlled movements and counters instead of speed, surprise and agility of the Italian fencing style.
As Seathal as said it was very defensive.
In fact, you can see it on the evolution of the hilt. In chronological order:
1) "Lazo" www.mundoespadas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/323-732.jpg
2) "Concha" www.aceros-de-hispania.com/imagen/espada-ropera/espada-ropera-concha.jpg
3) "Cazo" www.xyfos.com/images/HMoreno/HM-071b.jpg
Even the cross ("gavilanes") increase a bit in size.
It was intended to be for attack, while keeping you alive and exposing yourself as less as possible. Reflexive , patient and witty vs fast, elastic, explosive.
British fencers used to say (many times before death) that spanish fencers moved in a magical circle. It was just math.
However, I must say that as diestro, this guy is not playing well.
And yes, it is correct to use play in "Verdadera Destreza", as we call it "tirar" or "jugar", and an experienced fencer is called "Jugador Viejo" (old player). A side from this little vocabulary meddley, those "op op" , his squareness, his ups and downs while fencing, does "semi-conclusions", and in general all his compases, reveal that he either does not known many verdadera destreza, he is a beguinner, or simply he is not doing it as inteded. If you want watch good Destreza, go and check AEEA (Asociación Española de Esgrima Antigua) and ACEA (Associació Catalana d'Esgrima Antiga), where I belong. The founder, president and master of masters in AEEA, Alberto Bomprezzi, was who re-read and re-interpret the pachequian an radian manuals and re-played "destreza" after few centuries.
Sorry for my English, I am writing from the phone and I don't have my corrector xd
PS: I do not want to offend anyone by saying this! ;^D
Hola Joan,
Could you be more specific about what part of the footwork is incorrect?
We might ask, "Is this execution a valid part of the tradition?" I think the answer is, 'Yes." You will find specific examples of each of the longer steps inside the books which indicates that they are part of the tradition. Rada comes much later and I think he is the last great master before the French corrupt the tradition but there is quite a bit more material out there to review with good examples.
Single transversal step to attack?
Consider Ettenhard's opposition to the Reves in his Compendio in Treatise 3, Chapter 4. At MdP he strikes by thrust with a transverse step in the first or second movement of the opponent's attack. There is a single step executed in the time called the 'during' which must be done very quickly or the diestro will be struck.
Circular cuts in second intention?
Consider Pacheco's advice in Grandeza (p.89) when he stands at MdP and uses the advantage of right angle to launch a thrust based solely on the adversary's bad position (iron gate) by attacking with a single step. From there he moves on to second intention avoiding the desvio with a circular thrust (p.90), and then (p.91) in third intention he wounds with a reves. He continues to wound in fourth intention (p.92) with a thrust.
He continues from there but consider the principle. If you are closer than MdP, one valid opposition to the desvio is either a circular cut (tajo) or a circular reverse (reves) in the next intention. Here we see the idea of cutting in the next intention in the during time of the adversary's desvio is certainly part of the tradition.
Conclusions formed during the adversary's desvio or pressure?
When the adversary attempts a desvio we also have examples of conclusions executed. In New Science consider Pacheco's opposition to the Zambullida during in which he passes under the angle to perform a movement of conclusion. In the same way, the movement of conclusion is used against the desvio in the response to the Llamar. Both of these examples show that when the opponent pushes into your sword you can execute a movement of conclusion.
If you can give me guidance on what specifically you don't like maybe I can provide you some clarification on why we made those choices or, perhaps the next video will be better.
Thanks,
~P.
I recently got Paul Wagner's book on George Silver. Your Before, During & After are very similar to Silver's Four Actions: Bent: ready to attack, Spent: end of the attack, Lying Spent: moment of stillness after the attack & Drawing Back: readying another attack. I think Silver is alluding to shooting a bow: draw(drawing back), hold(bow is 'bent' ready to shoot), release(arrow is spent) & follow through(lying spent). Please keep the videos coming as they illuminate not only Destreza but also the fundamental underpinnings of art of rapier in general.
Paul Wagner's work is excellent. The timing scheme of "before, during, after" predates both Silver and Destreza and was first used (to my knowledge) by the German longsword school. The first extant reference that I am aware of is the Liechtenauer verse from the 1300s (14th century).
SALUDOS A ESPAÑA MADRE PATRIA DE AMERICA 12 OCTUBRE 1492..
My God.., you understand! my respects!!
@PXCharon - That is one way to think of it. If we consider it a change in the placement of the final attack.and also accept that the cavazione maintains contact with the opposing weapon during the cavazione. In the video of the form it's closer to an Italian fianconata in fourth with the hand in third in first intention.
In this generation we have an embarrassment of riches and the ability to make a meaningful contribution to the arts is something that can be realized by almost anyone willing to read, train, learn, and share in open and honest academic debate. We can't always be right or perfect but we can always aim for quality work which can be stepping stones to something better.
@PXCharon - If I thrust and you parry, I can redirect my point by circling the tip during the parry. My redirecting circle can be full, 1/2, or 1/4 circle. (Like feints but causality has changed. Feints are intended as deception. Circle thrusts are attacks that mutate in response to defense.) EX: From atajo inside I begin a face thrust and you lift hilt to parry. I redirect in a CCW 1/4 circle to redirect to glide outside armpit.
Ultimately I don't want to be perceived as an authority but rather a ready source of information which can be tied directly to the original sources while also offering useful advice to a modern reader/artist. Having encountered significantly negative reactions to our work from an "authority", I try to encourage critical review from those who might pick up the work and follow us. I want to empower the discussion\journey and not overpower it.
@PXCharon - (CONT.) Spanish actions have a defined meaning, but are often used as short-hand for specific fencing actions. In this case, thrust of the quarter circle from atajo on the inside means, thrust over the blade and drop the point into the flank like a flanconade just as we're doing in action 1 of the form. There are many different possible thrusts for the first action and I chose this one for symmetry withaction 2 (the thrust to center chest on the outside line).
The spanish " verdadera destreza " (true dexterity) is the fending of the Count Dooku (Christopher Lee) in " Starwars "
Fernando Mercado The most accurate translation would be "true dexterity"; "true skill" would be "verdadera habilidad" actually, but they are synonyms, so it doesn't really matter XD.
destreza.us/
Really? His lightsabre's hilt much more implies a sabre-like style (not necessarily lightsaber, but the historical curved sword), and in general Star Wars duels are very slash-centric.
I haven't seen anything that suggested Dooku's fighting was based on LVD.
In the movies sadly not, but in the animated series you can see it clearly.
@PuckCurtis To Italianize it (Fabris student here), if I'm visualizing correctly: It would be a half-cavazione in tempo of their parry to strike across their debole in terza. With their hand high and their tip being forced low and against my quillons.
I have updated the video description to address user feedback concerning the length of the attacking steps.
Vaya , solo le falta la vizcaina y tenemos a un hidalgo castellano. Pd :Buen video
Hello Phil - I'm glad to hear it is useful. You might also look over the wiki at the Destreza Translation and Research Project website. Google it and you will find the site with no problem.
~P.
It isn't a perfect video but rather something we put together in a single afternoon which snapshots some current practice. As a lesson/drill it has a clear classical accent to the pedagogy. It also should be considered one step forward on a path bringing the student closer to martial ability. When looking at this we have the dialed turned to about 5 but our goal is to turn it up to 11.
Very nice vid...post 1000s more
@PuckCurtis Okay, I think that makes sense. Instead of the third action using his parry to align a conclusion. Change the engagement to a higher degree of strength and continue following the action of your point around his guard and transverse step right to end the play in the same manner as the first action in the form.
Thank you for sharing this clip! Could you let me know how can i get some text written by Luis Pacheco? I'm really curious about how much differences there was between Thibault's style and Pacheco's one. I've already get and read Thibault's translated manual and some part of Pacheco's text translated by Tim Rivera. But it makes me more curious about their differences....
Los españoles eran los mejores con la espada y la daga nadie Le hacia frente durante 150 años gracias a los tercios de infanteria española los famosos tercios de flandes
Pero la proliferación de las armas de fuego hizo que esa ventaja se perdiese, y con la perdida de esa ventaja se perdió el dominio en el campo de batalla
Las armas de fuego ya estaban normalizadas en los ejércitos y los tercios españoles sabían sacarles provecho.
Lo que sucedió es lo que sucede con todos los imperios, que llega alguien mejor que tu.
Alex Feinmann no, te equivocas, los tercios dejaron de ser efectivos debido principalmente a la pérdida del Camino Español, verdadera arteria logística del Ejército.
@@DiegoRoblesGallardo Eso, y el auge de la artillería. Pero ni siquiera el invencible ejercito sueco (malherido, pero competente) con sus innovaciones basto para hacerle frente a un ejercito español pre/napoleonico.
this looks just like baguazhang. although baguazhang is modern, the main concepts have been around way before the 19th century. I have always found the "circular" approach to fighting very interesting. I noticed they are more common in dueling scenarios and self defense. I also feel like circular movements are more advanced and it is probably safer to learn linear first before looking into circular stepping.
The SCA is a good venue to practice provided you don't want to cut correctly or grapple. Because neither of these things are permitted in the SCA's rules the fencers can have painful blindspots to this kind of wider play. It's true that before I worked with cutting and grappling I also had these blindspots. I love fencing in the SCA when I can and I love SCA fencers. Given my preference I include as much as possible in freeplay.
Rapier is a loose term but you could call it a rapier with enough edge for useful cutting actions to remain viable.
Puck, could you give an explanation of the thrust of X circle, please? I'm training this form to help a (good) Diestro work on his abilities, and I'm very unfamiliar with the system still.
Puck you are on the right track, see greater fluidity.
I like the Spanish style.
As someone who's been fooling around with Rapier in the Society for Creative Anachronism for 10+ years, I'd very much like to get better.
Is there a book you could recommend that would teach the basics in plain language? Once I start hearing things like "Medio proportional" etc my brain tells me "Ok, I'm out of here!"
I saw there was a series of videos available online, but not sure if they're worth the price.
For the record, I'm a LONG way from any school (I live in Central Canada) that teaches anything like this.
Any info or suggestions would be most appreciated.
I haven't done much on rapier fencing, but I've seen two videos on Spanish fencing and both show winding cuts. How common are those in the manuals and were the Spanish rapiers designed differently to withstand the impact of the blow?
You will have to explain 'Winding cuts' a bit more for me because I can read that in different ways that change the meaning. Is that perhaps a circular or maybe a cut executed while increasing the strength in the bind?
Puck Curtis Cuts in general really, though the winding was the simplest way I could think to describe the types of cuts performed in this video.
Well The best way to deflect a cut was using effectively the "shield" on the hilt, by positioning it making the cutting blade slip across its surface until hitting the edge and then you have successfully blocked and locked the enemy sword between your edge and the cross guard.
demomanchaos Quite common as part of a counter. Not common as the primary form of attack. Spanish uses a lot of counters with winding cuts aimed at the face, usually after a upper/downward thrust from the opponent, you let the force of the opponent push your sword backwards as you step aside and use that inertia to bring the sword up and down to his unguarded face/head.
Does anyone know how to preform a Balanzada? I read about it in a book about Spanish Fencing.
the Spanish were the largest empire that has ever existed for their courage and determination. No one will ever match us. No one.
Asi es 😎
Where I can buy this dvd?
Do you train against other forms of sword play?
I believe this made things much more clear for me. 1, gain the best angle, if that angle is challenged horizontally, control from the top, if they challenge from the top, stick to their sword and roll underneath (we'd call that uke nagashi). These same rules apply if you are ahead of them, on time with them or behind them. Is this roughly correct? Great video, watched us many times!!
Pero si estoy viendo al capitan alatriste!!
We occasionally do.
Very nice, just one comment. That guard does not seem a viable steady starting position. Not with that kind of hilts. Just a slight movement and you find your hand impaled
Any suggestions for a trainer sword? I've been doing longsword for a while now and I just got my first taste of rapier a few weeks ago and I'm really starting to love it.
Hi,
It largely depends on what tradition of rapier you're interested in and the time period. My primary focus these days is early rapier work that uses a cut and thrust style blade. If you're interested in that kind of work a Darkwood Destreza trainer might be just the ticket. If you're more interested in Italian rapier or longer blades you might look at Danelli rapiers. They have an excellent cup-hilt which would be good for Destreza post-1650 or so. Darkwood also makes Italian rapiers.
I'm looking at more Destreza than anything else right now, so I think I'll give them a look.
EXCELENT
Anyone come here from the Destreza warframe preview?
You have to work more on your footwork and distance..... Try reading Rada's text ¨Of the experience of the swordplay¨, the chapter about distance, proportion, proportional and proportionated.
Im trying so hard to learn this but coming from military saber the rotational movement gives me hives lol
I think here we are largely in alignment. I teach using classical pedagogy and the training available in the SCA is largely bootstrapped or show-up-and-fence nights. When the SCA fencers in Northern California began training under M. Ralph Sahm, they began to outperform their fellows. M. Sahm trained at least 3 white scarves that I am aware of in the space of a few years. Classical fencing pedagogy is far superior in this regard.
Good effort but the steps are too long, Destreza is based first and foremost on the footwork. see video by TheManilio as it contrasts the Italian style (Spanish in Black/Italian Black and white uniforms)
No llevan protección en las manos ni en ante brazo no llevan daga o capa de protección si hacen círculos pero no es la auténtica destraza
Thank you for the comment.
Using the sword alone is the most common weapon style described in the books written by the original authors. Some authors do describe a sword and dagger style but if you have an example of sword and cape techniques written within the Spanish True School, I would love to read that. The original books show some counters to fencers who wear armor on their hands and forearms but that's also not typical of the school but something which outsiders do. Also, the most common spelling in Spanish is 'destreza' and not 'destraza' and we would most correctly say, 'la verdadera destreza' to make it clear that we are referring to the Spanish True school and not the common (or vulgar) school of Spanish fencing.
If you have additional books written by the Destreza masters which support your statements and you can share the titles and authors, I would consider that an act of kindness from you.
What happens when the opponent doesn't just stand there like a acquiescent target dummy?
First, it's the instructor receiving the touches. If you change the context then you are working on something else instead of attacks executed in different times as part of a codified training sequence. That's fine too. Consider posting your own version of a drill for the same tradition.
The same thing that happens in any actual HEMA competition, or full out sparring. 98% of it goes out the window and the guy who moves faster wins lol.
The point is that working through the motions slowly, and with predefined input, trains you in how to react quickly as your body already knows what to do so you only have to think of which technique to use, not how to perform the specific technique.
@@Viperzka muscle memory is called.. yes...
I'm not looking for universal agreement because I think that is unhealthy as our understanding of the art develops. If I'm an authority, I assert that I don't speak ex cathedra but rather have authority in the academic sense of the word in which I support and am challenged by later works.
Me wo korose, kore koso Iberia no Destreza!!!
Hello Thorns
so so
which one is making that noise?
I saw FENCING on the background not on two guys.
Esa esgrima me va a servir en dark souls
Te van a matar v:
@@cyberslave434 eso seguro
Eso estaba pensando viendo el video. Mmm, a lo mejor deberia de probar la ropera mas.
I also thought we kept our arm out straight. Then I met Ton th-cam.com/video/X57f1ItkRH8/w-d-xo.html
I know Ton and I have fenced against him and with him. ( th-cam.com/video/bFzlrSmS-yM/w-d-xo.html ) He is a very talented fencer and master of the tradition.
Unlike most historical martial arts, Spanish True School has a strange tendency for practitioners to discard the posture entirely that isn't true of practitioners who practice Fiore, Fabris, or Capo Ferro. It's strange because we have a collection of sources advocating the right angle (from both the Spanish, Italians, and Thibault) and we have observers like George Silver telling us that they fenced with an extended arm. Somehow, we as moderns feel empowered to discard that evidence and change it.
I think there is evidence that right angle isn't a rigid position, that it needs to be supple, that it can be applied situationally, that it isn't a guard that should be rigidly adhered to at the expense of one's life. But, I also think there is a lot of evidence that it is characteristic of the tradition, that it is the default position at MdP, and that it is critically important to understanding how the fencing works.
If we toss the right angle away... I think we're losing something.
If you look at maestro Puey's fencing, you'll see the right angle plenty when he is at MdP. (th-cam.com/video/cRxt_jIjxsw/w-d-xo.html) Once you move past MdP, you probably have atajo and are closing into MPado. The style needs to be fluid, dynamic, and responsive but we can't leave right angle in the garbage pail because we have very strong evidence it is part of the tradition taken directly from people that practiced and observed the tradition while they were alive.
As to this video, it's an exercise about developing the simple attacks. It's just technical skill building so I would hope that the fencing we developed using these attacks is more dynamic than the rehearsed practice you see here.
xD
Is this style pre or post Filipino conquest. I’m seeing an awful lot of escrima in here
This Spanish style of fencing was prevalent from the late 1500s through the late 1800s. While we know there is some shared technique and jargon between Destreza and the Filipino traditions I think the evidence suggests they were created independently and then interacted in interesting ways after they encountered each other.
Very interesting stuff
idioti!
The two mukateers bwahahahah
It"s patetic! Greetings from the North of Spain. Go to make hotdogs boys