Annealing before sizing assures sufficient ductility in the brass to allow the sizing process to move the brass to correct sizing without too much spring back or over working the brass. The firing process work hardens the brass. If you don't anneal first, you have two work hardening processes imposing their stresses on the brass. Much better to anneal before sizing.
You can imagine the process. Thanks Aaron. It took me a while to get through this as I needed to take breaks so user error and fatigue did not influence the repeatability of the measurements. In hindsight, I am very glad I did it as it really shows me how case dimensions change over the case prep process.
I've been watching Eric cortinas believe the target series and also F class John's series of reloading room confesions. I would say that all the pro shooters they interviewed anneal first.
Lol I noticed that too. And they all drop big money on the AMP. There has to be some significant improvement they're seeing, otherwise they wouldn't do it. They definitely don't do it to save money by extending case life, the money they put into annealing cancels that out pretty good. And these guys swap barrels (very expensive ones) every 1,000 to 3,000 rounds ( every few months). So they aren't afraid to toss stuff out, so if they were getting better results with less time money and effort (not annealing) then they would do that, even if the best results for them was shooting only new virgin lapua brass every single time. They would gladly toss out brass and buy new lapua after 1 or 2 firings if it would shrink groups by 5%.
I have watched some Eric's videos also, good stuff indeed. As shown in this video, the order really does not make a difference in case dimensions. But perhaps some other characteristic of the brass is improved so there is no problem of annealing first and then resizing.
Don't forget Primal Rights video of order of operations too. He also anneals first. What he's stated which makes a lot of sense and I've seen it in my ES/SD by switching, is when you anneal it puts an oxide layer on the brass you can physically feel. This sticky oxide layer can cause consistency issues with bullet seating which will result in variations in ES/SD due to that oxide layer not letting the bullet seat consistently. Annealing first, then running through the rest of the brass prep and cleaning last, removes that sticky layer and applies a smooth coating to the brass to promote consistent seating forces. This can bee seen with either a gauged arbor press or the amp press.
thanks for the video! very helpful! i ended up going with the EP 2.0 annealer and love it, especially for adjusting from 17hornet to 50bmg without having to add or remove any parts. I anneal prior to sizing for more consistent headspace bumps and neck tension IMO
Very nice video about procedural order of reloading rifle cartilages and how annealing will affect the rounds! Which from this video there is very little difference, have to look for when you did your shooting with the rounds you finished and results.
Thanks for watching and posting. I did not put together a follow up video as the results were nearly identical with the two different orders of operations. That makes sense, as annealing does not improve or change precision, but rather extends the life of brass.
I would also be curious as to the bullet seating force and consistency for both groups as this is where I feel the difference lies.. Would you mind testing this theory which should include accuracy tests at 100 yards. Awesome DOE!
Hello NightForce 1, already in the works. I have a follow up video that will come out later in December where I use the cases prepared in this video and shoot groups at 200 yards. Thanks for watching and posting.
First: Thank you for a well made video 👍🏼👍🏼! Then: I think that this is more about hardness than about size. If I push to the extreme, a "snug" fit in aluminium is more or less impossible to assemble in hardfned steel. Same here: if neck is harder (if annealing before resize) it is maybe harder to mount the bullet and maybe harder for the bullet to "let go" when firing? Not sure, just thinking out loud...
You are welcome. Even a year after making this video there is no clear consensus on the order of operations. Hornady's recent annealing podcast mentioned resizing and then annealing but also noted its best (for precision) to anneal after three firings and not to anneal every time. Interesting stuff indeed. Thanks for watching.
Hello Larry, Yes, nickel plated brass rifle cases can be annealed. The nickel plating my be removed or flake off especially where it became hottest but it be done. Thanks for watching and posting.
*6:00** No offense and hate to do this... but no, Accuracy doesn't have anything to do with consecutive back to back measurements like you just made. They are "accurate" when compared to each other* ie, That neck is out of round. Also use a micrometer for that. Or an eccentricity runout gauge.
Own the same machine - not sure cases are being adequately annealed. Grant it - flame annealing is not an exact science. However, I would certainly be interested in knowing how many firings each of your cases can receive before split necks, primer pocket issues, case head issues etc. -Bleesings
That is a very good question. I have personally only seen a few split necks and then only on 5.56 brass. I am so careful on case prep that any sign of a problem gets the case tossed out. I prefer that approach... better safe than sorry. Thanks for watching and posting.
Annealing first makes sizing easier hands down, especially if you don't anneal every time. Annealing also controls neck tension you can keep constant. Sizing then annealing is ass backwards in my opinion.
@@ryanglass3570 Annealing is used to prolong the life of the brass. It does this by increasing the ductility of the mouth and neck of the case. If the case is annealed frequently enough, after 2-3 firings, it should not split the neck. If a split occurs that is an indicator the brass has run its course and needs to be discarded. The order of annealing as shown in the video does not really matter as for overall dimensions of the brass and is really a matter of personal choice. Ryan Stevenson’s PhD dissertation clearly showed annealing works (it increases the ductility of the mouth and neck of the case). It also showed that resizing after annealing begins the hardening process and for that reason a lot of shooters anneal after resizing. The recent Hornady podcast also refers to annealing after resizing.
Annealing before sizing assures sufficient ductility in the brass to allow the sizing process to move the brass to correct sizing without too much spring back or over working the brass. The firing process work hardens the brass. If you don't anneal first, you have two work hardening processes imposing their stresses on the brass. Much better to anneal before sizing.
What a laborious process. Kudos for all of the hard work that went in to making this video.
You can imagine the process. Thanks Aaron. It took me a while to get through this as I needed to take breaks so user error and fatigue did not influence the repeatability of the measurements. In hindsight, I am very glad I did it as it really shows me how case dimensions change over the case prep process.
In my opinion annealing before sizing helps keep consistent neck tension and I can feel the difference when sizing.
That is good to know. Are you also expanding the necks with a mandrel or just using the expander ball in the sizing die?
@sdkweber I use Bushings and expander ball.I don't have any manderals although i'm looking to buy a set
@@Lucysdad66 Thanks for the follow up.
I've been watching Eric cortinas believe the target series and also F class John's series of reloading room confesions. I would say that all the pro shooters they interviewed anneal first.
Lol I noticed that too. And they all drop big money on the AMP. There has to be some significant improvement they're seeing, otherwise they wouldn't do it. They definitely don't do it to save money by extending case life, the money they put into annealing cancels that out pretty good. And these guys swap barrels (very expensive ones) every 1,000 to 3,000 rounds ( every few months). So they aren't afraid to toss stuff out, so if they were getting better results with less time money and effort (not annealing) then they would do that, even if the best results for them was shooting only new virgin lapua brass every single time. They would gladly toss out brass and buy new lapua after 1 or 2 firings if it would shrink groups by 5%.
I have watched some Eric's videos also, good stuff indeed. As shown in this video, the order really does not make a difference in case dimensions. But perhaps some other characteristic of the brass is improved so there is no problem of annealing first and then resizing.
@@sdkweber I love your videos Sir! Keep up the good work!
@@joearledge1 Thank you Joseph. Keep on watching! :)
Don't forget Primal Rights video of order of operations too. He also anneals first. What he's stated which makes a lot of sense and I've seen it in my ES/SD by switching, is when you anneal it puts an oxide layer on the brass you can physically feel. This sticky oxide layer can cause consistency issues with bullet seating which will result in variations in ES/SD due to that oxide layer not letting the bullet seat consistently. Annealing first, then running through the rest of the brass prep and cleaning last, removes that sticky layer and applies a smooth coating to the brass to promote consistent seating forces. This can bee seen with either a gauged arbor press or the amp press.
thanks for the video! very helpful! i ended up going with the EP 2.0 annealer and love it, especially for adjusting from 17hornet to 50bmg without having to add or remove any parts. I anneal prior to sizing for more consistent headspace bumps and neck tension IMO
Thanks for watching and posting. After you use the EP 2.0 for a while check back in and let us know how you like it.
When you bend steel, do you pound on it with a hammer until it is bent and then apply heat...or do you soften it up with heat first?
Very nice video about procedural order of reloading rifle cartilages and how annealing will affect the rounds! Which from this video there is very little difference, have to look for when you did your shooting with the rounds you finished and results.
Thanks for watching and posting. I did not put together a follow up video as the results were nearly identical with the two different orders of operations. That makes sense, as annealing does not improve or change precision, but rather extends the life of brass.
I would also be curious as to the bullet seating force and consistency for both groups as this is where I feel the difference lies.. Would you mind testing this theory which should include accuracy tests at 100 yards.
Awesome DOE!
Hello NightForce 1, already in the works. I have a follow up video that will come out later in December where I use the cases prepared in this video and shoot groups at 200 yards. Thanks for watching and posting.
@@sdkweber How did I know! I think I've been enjoying your channel too much! 👍👍
@@SimpleLife1971 Yeah, you might be starting to think like me. That could be dangerous. :)
First: Thank you for a well made video 👍🏼👍🏼!
Then: I think that this is more about hardness than about size. If I push to the extreme, a "snug" fit in aluminium is more or less impossible to assemble in hardfned steel. Same here: if neck is harder (if annealing before resize) it is maybe harder to mount the bullet and maybe harder for the bullet to "let go" when firing? Not sure, just thinking out loud...
You are welcome. Even a year after making this video there is no clear consensus on the order of operations. Hornady's recent annealing podcast mentioned resizing and then annealing but also noted its best (for precision) to anneal after three firings and not to anneal every time. Interesting stuff indeed. Thanks for watching.
Great content!! Thanks
You are welcome Josh. Thanks for watching.
Can nickel plated rifle brass be annealed?
Hello Larry, Yes, nickel plated brass rifle cases can be annealed. The nickel plating my be removed or flake off especially where it became hottest but it be done.
Thanks for watching and posting.
*6:00** No offense and hate to do this... but no, Accuracy doesn't have anything to do with consecutive back to back measurements like you just made. They are "accurate" when compared to each other*
ie, That neck is out of round.
Also use a micrometer for that. Or an eccentricity runout gauge.
Own the same machine - not sure cases are being adequately annealed. Grant it - flame annealing is not an exact science. However, I would certainly be interested in knowing how many firings each of your cases can receive before split necks, primer pocket issues, case head issues etc.
-Bleesings
That is a very good question. I have personally only seen a few split necks and then only on 5.56 brass. I am so careful on case prep that any sign of a problem gets the case tossed out. I prefer that approach... better safe than sorry. Thanks for watching and posting.
Annealing first makes sizing easier hands down, especially if you don't anneal every time. Annealing also controls neck tension you can keep constant. Sizing then annealing is ass backwards in my opinion.
Data, not opinions. Read Stevenson's dissertation on Annealing.
@@sdkweber It doesn't appear you know much about annealing, anneal before sizing to prevent neck splitiing, sizing is much smoother with less effort.
@@ryanglass3570 Annealing is used to prolong the life of the brass. It does this by increasing the ductility of the mouth and neck of the case. If the case is annealed frequently enough, after 2-3 firings, it should not split the neck. If a split occurs that is an indicator the brass has run its course and needs to be discarded. The order of annealing as shown in the video does not really matter as for overall dimensions of the brass and is really a matter of personal choice. Ryan Stevenson’s PhD dissertation clearly showed annealing works (it increases the ductility of the mouth and neck of the case). It also showed that resizing after annealing begins the hardening process and for that reason a lot of shooters anneal after resizing. The recent Hornady podcast also refers to annealing after resizing.