Anachronisms in Ancient Greek Pronunciation | Classical Greek, Attic Greek, Koine Greek, Modern
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ส.ค. 2019
- See the Variants of Lucian Pronunciation video from 2023: • Greek Pronunciation in...
Ranieri’s Greek Pronunciation Chronology Spreadsheet:
bit.ly/RanieriGreekPronunciation
Ancient Greek has been revived as a spoken language. But what pronunciation scheme is appropriate? Anachronisms are very much to be avoided!
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Lucian Pronunciation has been updated! See the Variants of Lucian Pronunciation video from 2023: th-cam.com/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/w-d-xo.html
While the first video from 2020 on Lucian Pronunciation still contains much useful information, particularly on one of the variants (Samosatene Lucian), the entire system has been updated to include a total of six variants, meaning six conventions for different states of the Greek language in the Koine Period; watch the new video here: th-cam.com/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/w-d-xo.html
I think that early hellenistic pronounce is much better for a reconstruction
@@thiagoeduardo4421 That's what this is! 😃 The Archaic Variant fits that description.
I study ancient Greek since the last ten years and I happen to speak more than 10 languages.
I suggest you to consider few things and just think about it for a day.
In Marseille ancient Greek was a spoken language for many hundreds years and when Romans took over the people became billingual but spoke Latin with ancient Greek pronunciation.
Hence French language was born.
I studied french in Genève and you can clearly hear their pronunciation of E-psilon and Y-psilon (U) and also you should consider that the french Ro sound like Edith Piaf when singing is from my point of view the original Ro of ancient Greek.
I speak modern Greek as well and I think it has Latin+Turkish pronunciation...
Just my opinion. Everyone free to create his own...
@Arch Stanton
A,E,I,O,U....
Latin pronunciation.
There are no ancient Greek vocals in modern Greek.
@Arch Stanton
You have painful problems with Turks obviously....
If you would visit Genève, town created by ancient Greeks in Switzerland, (GEN-EY)
- εκεί που γεννιέται η καλλιέργεια...
You would find that the people can pronounce not only Y-psilon but also Epsilon...
It's useless for me to try to explain something to closed minded people like you.
I studied 3 years with a group called Epsilon and I can fairly say that you have no idea what Hellenism is....
As a native greek speaker, i find in your videos great pleasure!
Thank you...
Ευχαριστώ !
Συγχαρητήρια from a native greek speaker!! Συνέχισε με αυτό το πάθος!😊
Ευχαριστώ!
Probably the most sophisticated rant I have ever seen/heard anywhere :D
Thanks! 😃
Yes!
10:48 "If we're not going to do that with care and attention, then let's just use the modern Greek pronunciation!" Amen!
Actually in Greek school,when we learn Ancient Greek,we used the modern Greek pronunciation . I don’t know what is happening in higher academic levels of education like atthe university in Greek literature courses
Luca you make my two ancient languages come to life in my mind
WOW what a great informative video! As a Greek its so great to learn about the different pronunciations through time, because in school we only teach ancient greek using the modern pronunciation! Im guessing its for practical reasons. It's such a pity no other eras are being explored in greek schools tho... It's so interesting to see what the language used to sound like!
Thanks! I think you’ll like this video too.
th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
Ναι ναι κλασικά στην Ελλάδα κατηγωρούμε το σχολείο για τα πάντα "α δεν μας το έμαθαν αυτό" κ.τ.λ. τα περισσότερα από αυτά είναι απλά αυθαιρεσίες και δεν έχουν σχέση με την πραγματικότητα. αυτές οι "ανασυντιθέμενες" προφορές ξεκίνησαν απο κάποιες εικασίες του Εράσμου ο οποίος ο ίδιος μάλιστα της απέρριψε.
Για να είμαι ακριβοδίκαιος φυσικά και υπάρχουν διάφορες όμως δεν είναι δυνατόν να διατυπωθούν με σαφήνεια (δεν υπήρχε μαγνητόφωνο εκείνη την εποχή) οπότε όλα αυτά είναι απλώς εικοτολογίες που δεν μπορούν να εξακριβωθούν. Για παράδειγμα αντί το χ να προφερόταν κχ το κ ως κχ όπως στην λέξη και που προφέρετε ως (κιε) με ι που παθαίνει συνίζηση δηλαδή σαν (κχε) και γι'αυτό να υπήρχε και το Qοππα Q. Τέλος πάντων και αυτό είναι μία εικασία απλά το φέρω σαν αντιπαράδειγμα. απο την στιγμή που δεν γνωρίζουμε το τι συνέβαινε ακριβώς ας
Μην προσπαθούμε να μιμηθούμε με φανταστικό τρόπο το πως ηταν. Και να ξέραμε πάλι δεν θα είχε νόημα να τα προφέρουμε διαφορετικά εφ' όσον πρόκειται για την ίδια γλώσσα και όχι κάποια άσχετη.
Εὔρηκα σοῦ τὴν διδαχὴν ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ ἑβδομάδι. Δεινὀς εἰ. Σε εὐχαριστῶ δῶναι ἡμῖν τοῦτο τὸ δῶρον.
«Ευχαριστω ΔΟΥΝΑΙ ημιν » !
Ερρωσο φιλτατε!
@@kleparaskevas2628 Ευχαριστώ.
@@kevinloscalzo8638 did you say.....
i found your lessons this week. you are strong. thank you for giving me this gift. ...?
@@sumhump1075 Yes. "You're great" sounds better.
"... and when I hear things that are just very strange anachronisms, it bothers me and it doesn't seem to make sense to me."
The timeframe is shorter but this is SO me with using Modern Icelandic pronunciations when reading/speaking Old Norse.
I'm a beginner on Koine Greek and I wanna thank you for sharing the pronunciation spreadsheet 💐
You're so welcome!
it's true that when reading ancient and medieval Greek, am doing it with my father tongue which is modern greek pronunciation "dimotiki". It is surely an anachronism in terms of how the language is supposed to sound, BUT I do however understand what am reading and I make the other guy also understand what I want him to understand.
Simon Mizitrano ναι! Μάλιστα. I think you should use whatever convention works for you. I talk more about this idea here th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
@@polyMATHY_Luke Well, I found your passion for ancient languages such as Greek & Latin quite remarkable. As far as I am concern I am nothing of a linguist scholar, just a guy that happens to have learned modern Greek and as therefore a small door open toward the understanding of more ancient version of it.
Είσαι παραπολύ καλός σ'αυτο που κάνεις, και το κάνεις με πάθος και μεράκι. Το μόνο που μπορώ να σου εύχομαι είναι να συνεχίσεις έτσι.
And that is perfectly fine. I would do the same for any Greek audience, but not without explaining the historical phonology as well.
@@polyMATHY_Luke could you please make a video about names of colours in Ancient Greek? Colour classification was then so arbitrary and therefore so baffling according to today's standards!
The modern Greek, had changed the means of the words, to changing Alphabet in Cyrillik, or to spelling wrong the words, To changed the root of the word, you don't understand the first mens that hided in the root. Ancient Greek was so eloquently and so beautifuli. Nobody in Greek, noun the etymology of their word.In this manner, changed
the language, the spirit and the history of peoples.
Great work! Keep going on! A video about pitch accent in Ancient Greek will be helpful.
Thanks! 😃I will be making one soon.
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
I'm so appreciative of your tremendous work and research! A good discussion. As both an instructor and student of spoken, consistency from one for comprehensibility's sake seems more important than any particular era.
Sure! That's why I developed the Lucian Pronunciation th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
I prefer the pronunciation of a 26-year-old Didymian wine-merchant’s nephew of 398 B.C.E. whose mother came from Cos and whose nurse was a Persian slave woman who spoke with the usual heavy lisp of those from Tyana, and who performed in the chorus of a local revival of Aristarchus’s _Asclepius_ directed by an actual Athenian who’s grandfather actually saw Sophocles dance, this pronunciation being attested by Grenfell-Hunt papyrus fragment XIII, l. 11, which I take to be a misspelling of "trephes".
Seriously, I think we’re getting a bit mired in over-interpreted details here, always a temptation for those of us fascinated by the classics. To say that some sound didn’t exist before a certain year because of a misspelled inscription is to ignore the fact that there were hundreds of Greek city-states and colonies, each with its own speech habits and dialects (just look at Aristophanes mocking how those rude Spartans and Boeotians and Corinthians spoke). Not to mention ignoring the fact that we’re assuming the stone mason misspelled the word because that’s the way he pronounced it, and if so, he did so because that’s how his neighbors and mother pronounced it, and how her mother pronounced it, going back who knows how many generations in a world without sound recordings. On top of that, if you do go with only upper-class Athenian pronunciation of a certain few decades, you have the melting-pot influence of all those visitors and immigrants and kids being sent there to study by upwardly-mobile parents, some of whom would have instantly adopted the so-called “refined” Athenian accent, like an American who gets into RADA and immediately adopts the plummy tones of Maggie Smith; some of whom would emphasize their Mytilenian drawl out of pure school pride; and many of whom wouldn’t have changed a thing because it never entered their heads to. And then you’d be ignoring the multitudes who, like most people throughout history, simply stayed home, but enjoyed reading (aloud) Homer and Theocritus and visiting the local theatre to see the latest road show. Not to mention totally ignoring the pitches, without which none of this would make sense!
The details we can tease out of the mute remnants of the past are indeed fascinating, but we shouldn’t let this obsessive striving for some mythical “purity” or purging of “anachronisms” stop us from digging in and enjoying the language. The rhapsodes of 5th century Athens (or Corinth, or Lesbos) didn’t sing Homer the way Homer sang Homer. If the Greeks themselves didn’t obsess about such things, I really wonder whether we should.
Yeah, I totally get what you're saying, and generally I agree with where you are coming from. But you have to keep in mind that the anachronistic pronunciation systems bandied about turn off polyglots with a keen interest in phonology - which is of course a key part of second language acquisition - such that people like myself have been turned off from the study of Ancient Greek because of how poorly people pronounce it. Thus, I opine there is a middle ground here. Thanks for the comment.
In other words letś stay stupid and not explore any new ideas or theorieṣ
This spreadsheet is really great, a resource I always wanted without searching for it.
Thanks! Enjoy!
Exactly !!! I agree 100% with you! Πολύ σωστά !
Interestingly the Cypriot dialect has kept the double ζζ pronunciation of χαρίζω from Koine Greek.
Double λλ olso
Ευγε! Great summarizing spreadsheet.
Great work! Can you do more Ancient/Koine Greek lessons? We need more of these!
A greek in TH-cam standing in owe of the things I learn about my language (well, that of my ancestors). That being said, it's a lot easier to understand ancient greek (especially the complex grammar and syntax compare to modern greek), by pronouncing/reading it in the common (Koine) or even modern (demotic) way. Nevertheless, keep up the excellent work Luke. Ευγε!
Thank you very much for the spreadsheet!!
Παρακαλώ!
Another great video. One of the things I want to do is bring in conversational Late Latin and Byzantine Greek usage to my late Roman and Byzantine group so this helps a lot.
It's also funny when you talk about fricatives, glottal and velar nasals, etc. because I know this stuff from all the damn etymology that's gone into the word "Hun" of all places, lmao.
I appreciate your attention to phonemic fidelity, as much as can be constructed.
Thank you sooooooo much! This will save countless hours of research for a language project I'm doing. 😊
Oh great! Also see my Lucian Pronunciation video; I have updated my understanding quite a bit: th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
Thank you so much for putting together the spreadsheet! Thanks to your hard work, I've finally found a favourite pronunciation scheme that's a best fit for what I want to do with Greek: 50AD, Learned Koine. It's in a good period for New Testament reading. It's got a perfect blend of not having to pronounce iota subscripts, ai and oi still sounding like ai and oi, the consonants d and b being like English, and aspirated ph th kh. The only thing I need to get used to is αυ and ευ being aβw eβw, and ει being like i before consonants and like e before vowels.
I'm taking Greek now,so this is great.!
I'm very glad you liked it! :) Did you find the link? bit.ly/RanieriGreekPronunciation
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
the reason people mix modern pronunciation with the classical is because it helps distinguish (what really should be) aspirated and non aspirated consonants, not because they actually think something like the classical zeta and modern fricative chi were contemporaneous. It's the same reason people pronounce theta and phi as fricatives while maintaining other classical features.
Exactly. It's lazy. 😂
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
If we pronounce the classical greek we 'll hate our language. I have heard a greek guy in TH-cam and it sounds like Finish. Check this link -> th-cam.com/video/MOvVWiDsPWQ/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Podium-Arts
Would it not make sense to learn koine Greek with the modern Greek pronunciation? I mean, how sure are we that the Erasmus pronunciation is the most accurate one, for example. I'd rather pronounce something that it is comparable to a living language. Any thouhgts?
Wow, great work on compiling that chronologycal spreadsheet. Gives us a more immediate grasp of the changes on phonology. I'm also annoyed by the anachronisms, I'm trying to learn Ancient Greek through the orphic hymns and unfortunately many of their readings here on youtube use modern pronunciation. Guess I'm just a purist, since ecclesiastical pronunciation in Latin make me cringe, lol. Great channel, anyways. Just subbed.
Thanks! Welcome! Yeah I have made quite a few decisions about practical and historical Ancient Greek pronunciation since I did this video. I’d greatly recommend this video: th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
And this essay I wrote: secureservercdn.net/166.62.114.250/h13.ace.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/ancient_greek_pronunciation_guide_ranieri_2021.pdf
So from a person from a Greek background, I pronounced χαρίζω as it was suggested for Classical Greek, using a soft K (also evident in Arabic, like the word "Qura'sa", meaning booklet, though it's sounded like a q, as in the French word "que") and zd, and pronounced it as a modern Greek speaker would (so qarizdo). I did it with a conception of pronouncing the word realistically (that is to say, to let the word flow in nlrmal talking as much as can be done, in other words done non-nonchalantly and in conversation).
For me, it was pronounced relatively simple and flowed nicely (the zd flowed similarly to a mp in Modern Greek). The soft K enabled me to begin the word with ease and the ending was somewhat abrupt but made sense.
Thank you! This was amazing! You are awesome!
That's so kind of you to say! ☺️ I am very glad if the video and my spreadsheet are helpful. Ὑγίαινε! 😃 🇬🇷
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
10:35 - (paraphrased) "The whole purpose of reviving an ancient language sound is to enjoy the sound of it. If you don't want to do that, why not just use the modern pronunciation?" Such a great insight and conclusion!
Wow great man! You know in Cyprus we still pronounce the double ζ, so we never say μαζί, we pronounce μαζζί (together). If you're ever interested in greek cypriot pronojnciation I'm more than willing to help you. I know a lot of stuff ^^. Btw χαρίζω, at least in modern greek, means offer, give a present
This is great work. Thank you. In Classical Greek, do we have a good sense of what regional differences would have been like? I know stuff pops up in Dramatic works and a couple of other places, but is there enough info to recreate Ionic pronunciation and the like? Sorry if this is a basic question. I'm coming back to Greek after years in the Sinitic Languages. I was a philosophy major at Loyola and my roommate was a Classics Major with a Greek focus, so I'm familiar with a lot of the Classical Greek world, but the linguistics aspects have largely gone unexamined. By me, that is. Once again, great stuff, Luke.
I have known this from the very beginning of my studying Ancient Greek but my teacher kept on making the mistake mentioned in this video. I knew this because I already had some knowledge of Sanskrit and Indo European when started learning Ancient Greek. Not to mention the proper pronunciation of Ancient Greek accents.
Great video!
Thanks!
Thank you! ♥
😊
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
I would like to be like Luke, he is just amazing. Great work!
I don't know about Greek speakers, but as someone who has some education in written Koine Greek, particularly of the first century in Christian seminaries, a construed pronunciation is often taught, to modern English speakers at any rate, in order to help the students audibly learn the spelling. You will still get students coming up with Anglicized variations.
This is fascinating stuff as always, and - to me - it still beggars belief we can do this today (and we're lucky to be able to reconstruct this knowledge). Just tells you how much has been saved and passed on since, well, three millennia ago!
I couldn't help noticing that the way you pronounced the iota throughout this video until 12:27 sounds quite foreign to a native Greek speaker while after that point it does not. And the reason I managed to come up with was that the pitch is higher (twice as high roughly speaking) than it is after 12:27 - thereafter it is probably identical to the pitch in modern Greek. So this made me wonder: do we know much about the pitch of the stressed vowels in ancient Greek? I' guess you've probably made a video on accents and stress marks but what I would like to find out is whether we can go further than historical accounts give us. I'd imagine that a major force in shaping a language through time is convenience and economy (and there could be many reasons that these two might be accelerated or remain still) but is there a recipe of sorts that can predict how these two work? For example, I imagine that, for whatever reason, it's much harder work for northern people to pronounce their k's and t's unaspirated that it is otherwise - and vice versa for people living in southern climates. Or is that completely untrue? If we suppose for a moment that northern and southern peoples switched places: would that change their accents accordingly in the space of 3- 4 centuries or more? Well, it's just my little pet theory so please be kind... :)
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this! I have read Koine for years but never spoken it and have wondered how to do it, for reading, though wonderful, is no longer enough. You give me hope and point the way. Thank you. There are recordings, I hear, that can help? Can you recommend one or two or...?
You are so welcome! 😃 Thanks for watching and sharing! Check the new one out today: th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
Here are my Classical Attic Greek recordings: th-cam.com/video/nyC1ssM0D4k/w-d-xo.html
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
This aspirate>affricate(>fricative) shift can be wonderfully witnessed in Swiss German. There, all German first-letter k sounds (aspirated in Standard German, of course) have become either affricates or simply fricatives. But at least in the language variety I've listened to, both sounds seem to exist. I only noticed this duality recently when talking to a Swiss friend, tried to figure out when which of the two 'levels' of change applies ... but I haven't been able to find the rule so far.
You should do a video on Byzantine Greek!
These aspirated stops are found on Georgian and Armenian, as well as Urdu.
Mn pt bd phth are labiolinguals, as found in Aphïs ( Abxaz)
Conceptually, even if one were to read a Classical Attic text with all of the correct phones (those listed in the 5th century column of the spreadsheet), one would still need to reproduce the correct tones of the pitch pronunciation, if the goal is to avoid anachronism. So if you're pronouncing everything correctly, but you're monotonal, you aren't actually speaking proper Attic Greek.
Heh, are you saying I am monotonal? 😃 I didn't pronounce any sentences in this video. Of course I agree that pitch accent is essential. Listen to my latest Attic Greek recording and tell me what you think: th-cam.com/video/nyC1ssM0D4k/w-d-xo.html
@@polyMATHY_Luke No! I certainly didn't mean that you were monotonal, at least not based off of one word with an acute accent. Sorry for the poor phrasing! I'm really enjoying your recording of Athenaze. Great job! I've provided more in-depth feedback on Reddit, for what it's worth - www.reddit.com/r/latin/comments/cosrnl/anachronisms_in_ancient_greek_pronunciation_and/ex0hm5q?
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
Χαῖρε! Thank you! Was ζ pronounced as /dz/ in the pre-classical period?
Χαῖρε καὶ σύ! 😊 There does not appear to be any evidence for this. All Proto-Indo-European etymologies where /dz/ might have been possible seem to have been reanalysed at /zd/ and merged with the /z/+/d/ ζ phomene at a fairly early period, prior to Homeric Greek. Personally, I am partial to /z:/ even for Classical Attic Greek, since this was becoming normal during Classical Attic and is the basic sound of the letter ζ from 400 BC to the present.
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
It's the other way around. In Archaic (Homeric) Greek it was realized as "zd", but it was pronounced much closer together, almost at the same time, so it sounded like a single phoneme rather than two consonants strung together. In the transitional period between Archaic and Classical Greek (late 7th to early 5th century BCE) it was rendered as "dz", and then "z" in the high classical period. The "zd" sound supposedly comes from the Mycenean Greek "hst" consonantal cluster, which was very common in early stages of Indo-European languages and appears heavily in Proto-Indo-European. It could also form from a "d" consonant when devoiced and then revoiced back again in certain situations, such as zdeus (Zeus) from dyaus.
My mother tongues are Sardinian and Italian. I've found this video excellent and very interesting. I studied ancient Greek and Latin and I have improved in my mother tongues doing so.
@@elimalinsky7069 Thanks for this note. My first Greek teacher taught us "dz" for zeta, but noted that some say "zd" .
Thank you for your work on this topic & these clarifications! One question concerning the pronunciation spreadsheet: you offer a list of coeval phonemes to choose from as well as the main ones proposed; do they all need to be taken together? For example, if one chooses the plain, unlowered "o" sound for "omicron", do they also need to choose the contemporary "ai" sound for "alpha"+"iota", or are they free to opt for the "ae" sound proposed as the primary phoneme?
Greetings from r/greece! That was a very interesting video. Thx for making it!
Ευχαριστώ πολύ! ☺️
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
Have you used the work by Randal Buth who’s Biblical Greek course uses the pronunciation of that period? I had my doubts, but his research into Greek pronunciation through time is staggering.
G. V. Oh yes! See this video here: th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
And then read the discussion between me and Buth here: www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5159
The outro with Kiss the Girl in Latin killed me 😂
I’m glad you liked it! 🦀 🧜♀️
@@polyMATHY_Luke I had already watched the video about it and didn’t expect to hear it here hahaha
And thank you for the always interesting content!
I loved watching this. So informative. I noticed the chart that shows the different pronunciations going back to 500 bc.
I am curious. Why doesn’t the chart start a bit further back to better encompass the Greek language? Maybe somewhere around 1300 bc, during the Mycenaean Greek period?
That’s a good question; it’s very diverse and uncertain. The possibilities are too numerous to capture easily in a chart. Thanks for the comment!
The simple truth is that the Greek nation has several components (tribes) and the assosiative dialects. If you see the map o Greece you will realize tha Greece is a country that consists of olmost completly separeted regiions ( Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace, Islands, Ionia, Pontos etc)
What do you have to say about restored Homeric pronunciation? How can we best be latter-day rhapsodes and rightly recite the Iliad and Odyssey?
Can you please also make a video on how to learn Greek, like the one you made for Latin?
Hey, thank you free the spreadsheet it is just amazing and very helpful. But I have a question, would you mind to help me.
Do Ancient Greek pronunciation of consonants change depending on the following vowel? For example is λ pronounced softly before ι,ε,η,υ and hard before α,ο,ω.
Great video. As i understand it's directed mostly to non-Greeks, cause the extreme majority of Greeks use the modern pronunciation (like i do), which is kind of necessary for us (you cant expect someone to read the same words he uses in everyday life with 10 different pronunciations depending on the period of the text). But for foreign Ancient-Greek enthusiasts who learn the Ancient Greek first i can see your point. Btw many regional dialects of modern Greek have kept some of the ancient pronunciations, like Cypriots, Cretans and even South Italy and Sicily Greek speakers. As you can see most that kept remnants of the old pronunciations are cut off from mainland Greece, hence they did not follow all the mainland alterations through the centuries.
Like I wrote elsewhere, this is really silly. All the Romance languages use words with nearly or identical spellings but very different pronunciations, and yes we are expected to pronounce these words according of the rules of these languages, and not use English pronunciation rules, for example. Ancient Greek is a different language from Modern Greek, and so unsurprisingly has different phonology
Also not mentioned that zeta was likely a [d͡z] or a [zː] outside of Athens even in the Classical Greek period
It shall be mentioned in a future video!
I'm somewhat fluent in modern Greek. When I listen to ancient Greek in TH-cam videos it doesn't sound "smooth". It's too halting.
gpan62 listen to ancient Hittite and compare it to a modern Anatolian language. Listen to Shakespeares reconstructed Elizabethan English and compare it to modern. All languages were more elaborate and nuanced in the past and quicken over time.
@@gold333 there are no modern Anatolian languages...
I would recommend Ioannis Stratakis', Luke's, and eventually my own, readings for smoothness. 😉
@@gold333 what Anatolian language?
I would love a video about the debate on the pronunciation of ζ. It always has been an interesting topic for me I never really understood well, if it's pronounced zd or dz.
Yes! A good one. See my Lucian Pronunciation video. I recommend /z:/
@@polyMATHY_Luke oh, well, gonna watch it, thanks. Tbh I mostly read Greek in school (an Italian Liceo Classico) where we read Greek basically like Italian. It sounds like shite. Anyway thanks for the advice.
P.S.: dude you are so damn quick to respond, my compliments!
I wouldn't really treat aspiration literally as a separate [h] segment, but I get the point
It is very weird to see you speak English.
For me as well! 😂
@@polyMATHY_Luke what is your native language? it sounds like its English!
@@servantofaeie1569 he is american
@@curlyg3189 i know that now but thanks
Looks like he has been practicing. Witnessing Luke’s annoyance at anachronistic phoneme-mixing, I felt a pang of recognition. I am a Francophile, and the mispronunciation of “oh là là” by English speakers bothers me.
I heard a NT teacher (well, a student actually) said that Z went from “zd” to “dz” to “z” using some noun declensions to illustrate. I wasn’t interested enough at the time to remember the specifics, but is there anything to this? Gratias tibi ago.
The spreadsheet is one of the most awesome tools I've come across so far. Thanks so much! However, it seems that the sound of ρ has shifted from trill /r/ to tap /ɾ/ somewhere along the line; a shift which I can't see on your spreadsheet. Am I wrong?
I simplified the /r/ vs /ɾ/ idea there. Treat it like Italian & Spanish.
Wonderful Spreadsheet! Thanks. The only backside, now I will forever imagine Luke as Sheldon, ranting against uneducated people who "keep mixing and matching phonemes, like brutes". (besides, it would be great to have a spin-off of "The Big Bang Theory" about a group of humanists)
Good video. Where could I get that historical table containing the evolution of Greek sounds? Please...
Link in the description!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you very much. I love your videos and your pronunciation.
You make a very cogent point, Luke. I have an unrelated or perhaps loosely related question and request : can you point me to articles and resources that prove the ZD pronunciation of zeta ? am affricate DZ would sound much more natural, whereas ZD a) seems unnatural in any language b) would be slightly less likely to be represented by one grapheme (zeta) - although of course, anything is possible.
Allen: Vox Graeca.
What *seems* likely or not is rather subjective. But this is why I use Lucian Pronunciation: th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
Well, dz lik in
Indirizzo.
Soooorry, that is in another Sicilian language:)
Hi Luke, I am watching/listening to your clips with immense interest and I have some questions. What is your opinion about the pronunciation of the southern Italian greek, il grico? In particular the grico salentino. I am very curious to hear a comment from una persona erudita come te.
Secondly, when you talked about changes different vowel pronunciation in your video about the purpose of reconstructing/revitalise a pronunciation you made an example in Italian using a clear northern accent, Milano I would guess. You pronounced "bene" with two closed "e"s when, according to the rule that "e" should be pronounced opened when the accent falls on it, the first one should be opened and the second closed, "bEne" and in sicilian probably "bEnE". Does this apply to classical Greek as well?
I definitely wouldn't say "Northern accent" ! 😃 nor southern for that matter. But if I made an error in standard Italian phonology, that's my American accent. Oops!
Ancient Greek is a wild beast. I recommend my spreadsheet bit.ly/ranierigreekpronunciation
Greko is fascinating! It shows us that geminated consonants are a part of the older language.
@@polyMATHY_LukeThank you for the reply and yes, the spreadsheet is amazing. What an opus. he he
However, referring to your pronunciation was not to point out a mistake but to highlight the myriad of variations and colours of languages. What we se written is a blue print of the whole.
5:33 As many Hebraists know, Hebrew place name אשדוד Ashdod was transliterated in Greek as Αζωτος which testifies Greek Z was pronounced as ZD.
When is the date of transliteration?
I been taught Omiro (Όμηρο) and ancient (Lycia,Thoukididi-Λυσία, Θουκυδίδη) but wasn't in Attic dialect. I thing in English you pronounce the greek words in Attic like charisma. Your video is good for study but maybe is better to study ancient which are being teach in greek schools. (school is not in Attic)
koine maybe is a kind of ancient pronunciation. In modern pronounced kini.
As a Greek I consider great the usage of ancient phrases and words in colloquial. I like saying "plinthoi kai keramoi ataktos erimenoi" (πλίνθοι και κέραμοι ατάκτως ερριμένοι) and "to dis eksamartein ouk andros sofou" (το δις εξαμαρτείν ουκ ανδρός σοφού)
Great video!
a propos K-aspiration in Germanic languages, it doesn't happen in Dutch and Danish, both major Germanic languages.
Icelandic doesn't aspirate the K either, nor do many German dialects.
btw, the development of kh to x via kx also happened in High German dialects in Switzerland and Austria. notably Tirol dialects have this intermediate kx sound.
Absolutely right! Pardon my oversight
Hi Luke,
Can you point to primary sources from each period of Greek's development to show the change? Thank you. :)
Hi! They're all in Horrocks and Allen.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Hey there! Thank you. I am familiar with Horrocks but not Allen. I will check it out. It seems to me that there is a good deal of continuity within the various forms of Greek. For example, the Liturgy celebrated in the Greek Orthodox Church is very old, 1700 years give or take. I've always wondered how much the pronunciation has changed over time since the way Greeks pronounce certain words is very different from the way western or non native speakers and reader pronounce them. Koine is the best example. We'd say, Keenee, but I hear others say Koi ney.
One note concerning the German fricative phoneme /x/ and Greek χ in front of a/o/u: I think the modern Greek χ would be a velar fricative (when it's not palatal, in front of e/i etc.). The German "ch" in "Bach" is uvular, while some German varieties (still considered standard) further subdivide that from the "Buch" sound, which is then velar. As far as I've caught it, modern Greek (back-vowel) χ is velar, not uvular?
Just to add to the complexity of your topic, modern Greek (not demotic) came to standardize all the local variations of demotic Greek dialects and smooth out local variants. In the Cretan dialect (and maybe Cypriot dialect though I am not sure) which is quite close to the first written instances of the Demotic Greek in the 9th century eta is often pronounced as "e" ξη(ε)μερωσε or delta is almost always pronounced as "D". In other cases the pronunciation remained the same but the spelling changed thus the ancient ημείς became the modern εμείς. Havent seen any systematic study of this though. Would be glad to know if there are linguists that have researched theese instances.
Had to subscribe to your channel.
Wouldn't there be a bit of a problem in this in that dialects vary wildly based on region, period, and underlying primary language? We can add to that the various ambiguities in reconstruction the first place. In that sense, what we're really doing is a composite pronunciation for any era that wasn't ever really pronounced the way we do. So how much do the limitations of reconstruction drive you batty?
Still, I enjoyed the video and have subscribed.
Yup! It's a huge problem. I address it in my video podcast episode.
@@polyMATHY_Luke I'll hunt this out. Thanks :)
Sometimes TH-cam has nice surprises in store for me.
This is your first video and it won't be the last.
That said, on a more critical note. You'll never convince me that ancient Greek zeta was pronounced - zd -.
I stand firmly by the - dz - pronunciation which makes a lot more sense.
That also said, in principle I agree with you on the need to be consistent when pronouncing.
It is also a fact though, that aspirated plosives are a difficult sound not only to articulate but also to discern for everyone who has a native language different from English (and no, German doesn't have the same aspirated plosives as English, they are much weaker). I'd go for a compromise and pronounce K+H which is not so incredibly different from KH and has the indisputable advantage of being easily discernible for everyone.
Thanks for subscribing! There is significant evidence to conclude that /z̠d/ was a pronunciation even in Classical Attic, since it survives, according to Velius Longus, in minority dialects of Greek even into the 2cAD. The /dz̠/ pronunciation is extremely unlikely outside of a few isolated dialects, since the -ν- before ζ regularly disappears (nasalization before sibilants/fricatives, such as in front of σ; the same phenomenon is common in Latin and other languages).
So /dz̠/? Etymologically yes (confer Lat jugum with ζυγός), but by 5cBC Athens, no. And in 4cBC and after this letter should be pronounced /z̠ː/ in standard Koine Greek. That leads me to consider /z̠ː/ as the best, consistently historical pronunciation for ζ in even for reconstructed Classical Attic through to the near present (that is, until gemination falls out of the standard Demotic and we get /z̠/).
I recommend Lucian Pronunciation and its variants for Ancient Greek of any period, unless someone is quite skilled at the Classical Attic reconstruction: th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
@@polyMATHY_Luke the only real problem I have with reproducing classical pronunciation is with pitch accent that I find it hard to mimic (in Latin too, of course). That's the reason I never really attempted Chinese or any other tonal language.
As for zeta... still believing more in the arguments of the opposite side... ;)
But minor differences aside, I still think your channel to be a precious enterprise and I am also a big fan of the "natural" method for Latin and Greek beginners.
@@idraote Classical Latin doesn't have phonemic pitch accent; rather it has pitch variations which the Romans compared to the Greek accent system of their day. But pich accent languages are *not* tonal languages. Ancient Greek pitch accent is best compared to modern Japanese, not Chinese. Pitch accent languages are much simpler.
Thanks for watching my videos!
@@polyMATHY_Luke I'm aware of the difference between tones and pitch. My point was that if I already have trouble in mimicking a pitch accent which is a simple duality between low and high, the coexistence of several different configurations would entail a huge effort.
Latin pitch accent is not phonemic in that you can replace it with an intensive one and still be understood, but Latin and Greek metric relied heavily on the pitch accent to musically enhance the rhythm of long and short syllables.
The substitution of pitch with intensive accent is what lead to the birth of rhymes on which Romance poetry is based.
@@idraote I see why you might think that, but no, Latin accent was stress based from the Old Latin period foward; indeed, the Roman meters *demand* stress-contrast, not pitch contrast, as I explain in detail here:
th-cam.com/video/l_kAX8E8GEs/w-d-xo.html
And in brief here:
th-cam.com/video/b_NJzyFhhbw/w-d-xo.html
And this whole playlist:
th-cam.com/play/PLQQL5IeNgck0-tQ4AZgKFMlQCJud_VY_H.html
Hungarian and Finnish, among others, use immaculate hexameters, and are not pitch-accent languages.
The Erasmian pronunciation, and its projections into Koine and Medieval Greek, seem to be highly problematic. They were devised in a time when modern linguistics didn't exist, and don't seem to have been revised a lot. There is currently a new approach being developed in the Kapodistrian University of Athens, which also takes into consideration regional differences in pronunciation, though there isn't much material in English about it yet. Here is the presentation of the working hypothesis when the project started, on TH-cam: v=8IodxP45yWA, alas, it's in Greek, so I don't know if it is of much use to you. Demetrios E. Lekkas was the one that started it (he's the one making the presentation in the video), and there may be some information about the theory in English posted by him. Reply if you need help with accessing the information (I speak Greek), if you are interested.
aantony2001 Can you provide the actual URL to the video or other site with information? Thanks
@@choreologychannel th-cam.com/video/8IodxP45yWA/w-d-xo.html
But it's in Greek.
49:47 for an example of Asia Minor Ionic.
52:03 for an example of South Peloponnesian Doric.
52:48 for an example of Cretan and South Italian Doric.
55:08 for an example of Rural (lower-class) Attic.
Yes! quite fascinating. The Erasmian pronunciation was a good stepping stone, but the fact that it is still so common in the 21st century is shocking. The more variety the better, I say!
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
"..."a" is not a sound in many varieties of Modern English."!! I think you will find that this vowel sound is nothing short of ubiquitous in Northern England and Scotland. I couldn't speak English without it.
Don't forget: Ancient Greek is not *just* Attic - that's only one of the dialects that existed back then. There were more Greek tribes than the Ionians of Attica.
Also, there are still several dialects of modern Greek where ντ is pronounced "nd", μπ is pronounced "mb", γκ is pronounced "ng", et cetera. Just saying. Make sure you update your spreadsheet.
Is it possible to update your spreadsheet sometime so that it will include other varieties of ancient Greek, but also Proto-Greek, Mycenaean, and more?
Right! Thanks
Very true! I am not terribly concerned with the μβ etc. since my focus is on the pre-Modern, but you're right. As for other Ancient dialects, that is in the works!
We would like to add more dialects and whatnot yes, potentially going all the way back to PIE though it might need to be a separate tab since of course Attic does not descend directly from Mycenaean
The dialects are alive in the modern greek dialects. An easy example: in North we say the worm zesta-in dorian (ζέστα) but in Athens and south zesti -in ionian( ζέστη). Nobody is studying ancient dialects...i only found K.Hatzigiannakis. I don't agree as indigenous...to restore archaic pronunciation using some sources but forgetting others which are saying that the pronunciation hadn't change and was as today's even before classical era. The proposals as Erasmus are hypothesis and more an exercise. Why to separate the present greek population from scholars that using such a barbaric type of pronunciation? Is itt elitism?
Wonderful video. Id like to know how the digamma letter survived and died. I know it was very ancient. For example : woinos, wine....
Interesting. Getting hot about it might not be so helpful, as most of us, I suspect, just use the pronunciation we were taught (it is very difficult not to, as you end up looking like an idiot in class if you don’t). Still, I, right from the beginning of my classes naturally wanted to know what the Greek I was reading really sounded like, so am delighted to find your chart, thank you. One question: how contentious is it? Do the majority of historical linguists agree with it? Or are there widely varying schools of thought?
My Lucian Pronunciation video answers most of your questions
In the Eastern European Universities, we learn a very weird version of Biblical Greek that is more similar to the Byzantine/Modern Greek pronunciation (which is so annoying) so we learn how to read the texts from the first century A.D. with all the various diphthong pronunciation rules from later times. For example, "οι" and "ει" is pronounced like English "e"; "ευ", "αυ" is pronounced like "ev", "av"; "υ" is pronounced like a flat (English) "e" etc. So, I may be wrong, but when I hear Westerners speak Biblical Greek it always sound so different from what we have learned. That's why I came to the conclusion that we're applying the Byzantine pronunciation to it. That's as anachronistic as it gets.
Kind sir, I would like to take your wonderful spreadsheet and translate the English text into Croatian.
Is that permissable/possible?
I see that the link you provide has the cells in view only mode.
Bok! 😊 Govorim malo hrvatski, so if you provide me with the translated words, I'll make a Croatian version of the spreadsheet.
@@polyMATHY_Luke, I will gladly do so.
I don't have much time before the end of the summer, but when I do get it done I will contact you.
So, what would be the best way to contact you then to provide the Croatian version?
Correction:
"... to provide the Croatian TEXT?"
@@Serginjo5 FYI Sergej you should be able to create a copy of the document if you have google drive, which you can then edit. If you then send that copy to Luke he can add probably it to the 'official' version.
Is that a version of "Kiss the Girl" at the end of your video? That was a surprise.
Yes! That's my version: th-cam.com/video/okGVEdoLMo8/w-d-xo.html
Quid significant litterae C et V apud diphthongum ει? Ante consonantem et ante vocalem?
Rēctissimē! :D
I find your approach great and quite interesting actually. I do have a question though about your opinion for Plato's Cratylus (418c) "αἱ γυναῖκες, αἵπερ μάλιστα τὴν ἀρχαίαν φωνὴν σῴζουσι. νῦν δὲ ἀντὶ μὲν τοῦ ἰῶτα ἢ εἶ ἢ ἦτα μεταστρέφουσιν, ἀντὶ δὲ τοῦ δέλτα ζῆτα, ὡς δὴ μεγαλοπρεπέστερα ὄντα"
Yes that’s very interesting. It sounds a lot like Aeolic and Boeotian dialects, even Ionian to a degree, which had undergone some of the changes that would occur much later in common Greek.
The fact that Plato says that his Athenian does *not* do these things demonstrates the veracity of the reconstructed pronunciation for historical purposes
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks for your reply, to me who actually because of my age i was taught "καθαρεύουσα" in primary and high school, while at the same time i was speaking the "δημοτική" in everyday conversations, it reminds me the debates we used to have, in which one we should choose and the differences between the 2 forms and that makes me think that there used to be a formal and an informal pronunciation back then (he says " νῦν") and also says later in that text that we used to write "ιμέρα" in ;older times, some were writing "εμέρα" but now we write "ημέρα", which also reminds me the debates about spelling the words.
As a conclusion i believe that it would be better as you also said at some point in your video, to use the modern pronunciation when reading the ancient texts because even though maybe we wouldn't totally understand Plato, but i' m sure that he would completely understand us.
Since I've been learning old Hebrew pronunciation, I want to see what happens if I try to pronounce the Greek alphabet the way I would Hebrew. Would I sound like a second-language Greek speaker from antiquity?
What is the evidence that Χ was ever an aspirated stop and not a fricative? The term the ancient Grammarians use to describe it is δασύ which means "thick," a designation which applies perfectly to a fricative. The whole obsession which aspirated stops comes from comparing Greek to Sanskrit. But once you take that out of the picture, there is NO reason not to pronounce the ancient consonants as they are currently today. As for the vowels, here's an interesting anecdote:
In Life of Aesop, who lived in the 7th and 6th centuries BC, there’s an episode where Aesop’s master Xanthus tells Aesop that he has invited guests over for a banquet, and that he wants him to stand behind the entrance and only let in the wise. Aesop does as he’s told, and every time someone knocks on the door, he asks, τί σείει ὁ κύων (what does the dog move?), which all the guests except one misunderstand for τίς σὺ εἶ ὧ κύων (who are you, you dog?) and, insulted, leave. The one wise guest who understands the question answers correctly, “the tail and the ears,” and is let in. The only way this episode could have taken place is if υ and ει were homophones, or close to it.
The comparison with other Indo European languages (not just Sanskrit, as most other IE languages have stop sounds corresponding to the modern greek fricatives - English "brother", Latvian "
brālis", Irish "bráthair", Tocharian "pracar", etc. vs Greek "φρᾱ́τηρ" ) is just one piece of evidence. Contrary to your claim, there is plenty of additional evidence.
1) Armenian had both an aspirated velar stop [kʰ] and a velar fricative [x]. The former was used instead of the latter in transcribing Greek χ until the 9th century CE, at which point they switched. This is damning evidence that the fricative pronunciation is really only about 1500-1000 years old.
2) In preclassical Latin, Greek θ φ χ were consistently written with . In the case of θ and χ this would make some sense even if the greek sounds were fricatives, but in the case of φ it makes zero sense whatsoever - Latin had the letter which represented the sound /f/, and they didn't use it at all to represent Greek φ, instead choosing to represent it with . Later on in the classical period, they even invented a digraph to represent the sound, because to them it sounded like a combination of P + H. Once again, this is damning evidence for an aspirated stop instead of a fricative.
There is plenty of other evidence as well, but suffice it to say, the sound shift of aspirated stops to fricatives is incredibly common cross linguistically, and there is pretty much zero evidence to suggest that this isn't what happened in Greek. For instance, in modern Hindi it's happening right now - there is a phoneme [kʰ], but increasingly some people are pronouncing it as [x]. This is also pretty much precisely what happened to the Germanic languages through Grimm's law.
As for the pronunciation of υ, well, the sounds [y] and [i] *are* near homophones - the only difference between the two is rounding, so Aesop's fable still makes perfect sense. That said, it is impossible that υ lost its rounding for most speakers until the 10th century or so CE - etymologically it comes from [u], and this is verified both by how it was realized in other ancient Greek dialects and its correspondence to other Indo European languages. For instance, compare συ to the "tu" you have in pretty much every other branch of Indo European, as well as several ancient Greek dialects. Additionally, modern Tsakonian has [u] corresponding to demotic υ, though it also exhibits palatalization before this sound, indicating that the ancestor of Tsakonian (a heavily attic influenced form of Doric) had developed the [y] sound, but instead of unrounding it they backed it to [u]. This would never have happened if it was already pronounced as an unrounded [i].
As for dating the shift to only a thousand years ago, this paper provides extremely good evidence: www.academia.edu/21806563/Michael_the_Grammarias_irony_about_hypsilon_a_step_towards_reconstructing_byzantine_pronunciation
And this paper in Greek argues that it was still pronounced as a rounded vowel in Athens in the 19th century!
www.researchgate.net/publication/305489928_To_palaioathenaiko_idioma_Peges_martyries_charakteristika_The_Modern_Greek_variety_of_old_Athens
There is also Aristophanes mocking the Doric dialect of a Spartan (Laconic) messenger in Lysistrata - lines 1080, 1096 and 1105. From there the expression «ναὶ ταὼ σιὼ», which in Attic would be «νὴ τὼ θεὼ» (which is dual and means "by both Gods", I think) is written with a "σ" which normally marks a sibilant /s/ sound. There is a theory that this indicates an approximation of a fricative /θ/ sound, implying that the pronunciation had been already changed by Dorian speakers, albeit the letter "Θ" had yet centuries to go before being ascribed to the fricative sound as today.
@@myt-mat-mil-mit-met-com-trol Here's another explanation: Athenians pronounced θ as a fricative /θ/ and the Spartans pronounced it like a sibilant /s/. In fact, in modern Tsakonian, Ancient θ often yields σ. Aristophanes is just exaggerating a regional feature to make fun of it, like how Americans say "aboot" exaggerating the Canadian pronunciation of "about."
@@Philoglossos I apologize for the length, but I wanted to be thorough:
Look at the corresponding consonant sounds in the PIE "daughter" languages:
webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/indoeuropean.html
You will notice that of ALL of them, Sanskrit is the only one (if we put aside Greek for a moment) with anything like aspirated stops. All the reflexes in the remaining languages can be seen as alternations between the δασέα (/f, θ, x/), μέσα (/b/β, d/δ, g/γ/), and ψιλά (/p, t, k/). SANSKRIT is the exception. So what is it if not bias that makes us give such a priority to Sanskrit here instead of viewing IT as the innovator? After all, we know it was heavily influenced by the Dravidic languages (e.g. retroflexes), so why can't aspiration be another case of this? In fact, modern Hindi speakers have trouble pronouncing fricatives like f and actually pronounce this as pʰ. A similar process could have happened in antiquity.
PIE linguistics is completely useless as far as Greek is concerned. Let me explain why. According to the logic of the current establishment, it's invalid to pronounce Ancient Greek according to the Modern fashion. According to the most recent studies, Ancient Greek phonology is believed to have completely changed between the 3rd century BC and the 3rd century AD, with over half of the alleged sound changes from Ancient to Modern Greek occurring during these 6 centuries. The establishment wants us to believe this, and yet at the same time it holds that to figure out the phonology of Ancient Greek, we must refer to PIE, which allegedly existed 20 centuries before that!! You don't have to be a genius to see the blatant inconsistency.
The orthography of Φ, Θ, Χ as PH, TH, KH belongs to the pre-Euclidean orthography. Before that time, Greek speakers did not have the letters to write the sounds /φ, θ, x/ so they approximated them with the above digraphs by adding H. This was the system the Romans learned and in their conservatism they kept it. Once the letters Φ, Θ, Χ were introduced, though, the older orthography was progressively abandoned. After all, you wouldn't argue that English TH is an aspirated stop because we write it as two letters?
Here's some more evidence: Aristotle and many late Attic and Koine writers use the forms οὐθέν and μηθέν instead of οὐδέν and μηδέν. This variation is highly obscure is we suppose /ouden/ > /outʰen/ but highly regular if we view θ and δ as fricatives, the only difference being voicing. Furthermore, the digamma F often becomes β in Doric, for example, αFέλιος > αβἐλιος (i.e. ἤλιος, the sun). Again, this is very obscure if β was a stop (why would /awelios/ become /abelios/??) but very logical if β = /v/. And if β has no problem being a fricative, then so could φ.
As for the υ. Yes, from what we can tell it was pronounced more closely than the ι but this was not a universal feature. It varied greatly depending on the regions.
Look at some very ancient loans to Latin: φρύγω becomes frigo, σῦκον becomes ficus, and στῦλος becomes stilus.
The famous κύριε ἐλέησον was pronounced universally in Europe as kirie eleison.
In the Ionic dialect, κοινός was written ξυνός, showing that υ and οι were homophones. And how was οι pronounced? Well, if we listen to Thucydides, λοιμός and λιμός were confused, so that proves that οι was pronounced as ι.
Let's look at corroborating evidence from Latin now: Archaic Greek Fοῖνον becomes vinum and Fοῖκος becomes vicus. OI also becomes I in the declensions: nominative plural -οι corresponds to -i in Latin, and dative plural -oις corresponds to Latin -is (in Archaic Latin, however, the traditional spelling oi was kept).
Finally, some evidence from the papyri. Geoffrey Horrocks in his book _Greek: a History of the Language and its Speakers_ (2010, 2nd edition), p. 118 writes that the interchange of spelling between ἡμεῖς and ὑμεῖς is "not an uncommon error in the papyri of the period" (viz. the second century BC!).
Given all this, we can say that the borders between υ, ι, and οι were highly fluid.
The cases of υ becoming ου in Aeolic, Latin, and Modern Greek was always recognized as a barbarism by the Grammarians. It's not that these dialects preserved the "original" pronunciation of υ as ου; rather, it's a coarse, rustic approximation of the sound (compare how the French u is often pronounced by non-French speakers).
@@evangelosnikitopoulos Your made a long comment because it is unfocused and you provide weak and inaccurate arguments for whatever you are trying to say. My own point was very specific for one letter (Θ) of which we have indication of a fricative pronunciation by a particular group of Greek speakers of the past. No less, no more, and very careful in my expression. You are not even clear in what exactly are you arguing for!
The topic is about the Greek pronunciation of the past, so Sanskrit pronunciation or PIE linguistics do not bring any relevance to the topic. You just want to "poison the well" because you are against experts calling them "establishment" as if they have a political agenda! Another conspiracy theory is not needed to this topic.
Claiming that in a span of 600 years between 3rd century BC and 3rd century AD, Greek phonology changed "completely" you are putting words to mouths. It is a period long enough for substantial changes in the language, of course, but "complete" changes just makes no sense.
"Euclidean orthography" refers to a specific spelling reform of the Athenian writing in ca. 400 BC, not of all Greek scripts as you claim. Besides, there is no reason why TH cannot be a digraph of an aspirant, but only of a fricative.
Although you are the one calling the words οὐδέν - οὐθέν as spelling variations, you demand from others to treat one of them as a spelling mistake, because it fits with your idea of fricatives. Let me guess, you have been there and know to tell apart variations from errors.
Vinus is a vulgar word for vinum which is not a loan from Greek. Early Romans got a lot more from Etruscans, you know. Claiming that Latin consisting exclusively of Greek loanwords is not only inaccurate, it is a show of arrogant oppression.
Don't you think you have to be a little careful with your arguments? I am not intending to participate in a quarrel of toxic philology.
Nice video! A comment however: As a modern greed speaker I do this "error" of anachronism all the time. But it is the only way I can visualize the language in my head, and the only way I can read fluently. When Italians read middieval Italian or latin texts they use their pronounciation. It is wrong, yes, but it is their dialect. After all since modern greek exists, I see it as a dialect of the language and not an erroneous usage of teh language.I am sure americans that read Shakespeare use their american (modern) accent rather the original. Same thing goes for modern english "high-speach". Maybe a way to look at it, is that dialects can strech though time not only space.
Μπράβο ρε φίλε. Εξαιρετικό βίντεο.
Ευχαριστώ πολύ! ☺️
I never bought this argument about Xi being K sound. If Xi had a hard K sound what did Kappa do? Seems to me Xi was/is basically the equivalent of the modern english H sound.
It would be great to have such a tool for the Latin language as well, but I guess it would be an enormous mess to compile such a spreadsheet. For one thing, there is no modern Latin in the same sense of a modern Greek language - though I could throw in a bit of patriotism and declare Italian the legitimate modern Latin. However, I think that up to the point where the Romance languages really started to linguistically (and politically) take the scene, there must have been some sort of "learned Latin pronunciation" different than the various Italianate, French, German, English… pronunciations. Am I completely off the tracks here?
Okay, now where's the legend for understanding all those jargon symbols in your pronunciation chart?
Oh. My. Jupiter. That spreadsheet.
I'm glad you like it! 😃 New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
@@polyMATHY_Luke , seen and liked it already. You're an incredible person.
@@Leoptxr E você, amigo! 😃
Haha. Now that you've explained it, it would drive me insane too.
I made a recent realisation, the truth of which is not attested to any source as I'm not an expert. Ancient Greek had a unique character for /st/, called "stigma". With that in mind I don't find it surprising that it also had a character for /zd/, which is the voiced counterpart of /st/, and if I recall correctly should be analysed as /sd/ turned to /zd/ through sandhi, since Ancient Greek did not recognise /z/ as a phoneme, but only as an allophone of /s/. Through /sd/, /zd/ and then /z:/ we end up with the creation of a phonemic distinction between /z/ and /s/ in Koine, though /st/ did not likewise reduce to /s:/, which baffles me.
Luke, do you have any insight on this?
The main problem of us, native modern greek speakers, with non-native ancient greek speakers is not the different pronunciation of the letters, but the way they stress the syllables of the words, which usually are common or similar in both ancient and modern greek. A wrong syllable stress is quite annoying for native speakers.
Also, you should know that there are hints of the ancient greek pronunciation of letters in certain dialects of modern greek or even spoken standard modern greek. For example, the pronunciation of letter Y (ypsilon) and diphthong ΟΙ in modern "Old Athenian dialect" which became extinct quite recently was like the ancient pronunciation (/y/). Or words containing letters Δ or Β (like ΑΝΔΡΑ or ΓΑΜΒΡΟΣ) are often pronounced as /d/ or /b/ in spoken standard modern greek.
Hi Luke I’m Italian and I’ve always pronounced the letter ζ with the Italian pronunciation of the letter Z. Is that correct? please let me know! Have a beautiful day
Correct. In Greek alphabet Zita:
ζ and the capital Z are the same
@@hvar-pharosisland2268 thanks 🙏 🔝
@@tancredi7106
Whereas in Italian double Z is pronounced ZZ as -ts .
Right?
Greek zeta is pronounced like in Italian "zero", not like "piazza".
@@urielamauri7633 thanks! So I pronounced it right ;) thanks again!
your pronunciation is gorgeous
Thank you! 😃
I agree, but didn't anachronisms like this start with Erasmus?
They did, and we have progressed a gread deal in 500 years.
New video has been posted! th-cam.com/video/yCv5dK1DOgw/w-d-xo.html
Do you think that ancient, koinè, medieval and modern Greek are different languages or simply different stages of the same, unique language?
1) Koine is Ancient Greek. Ancient Greek includes Epic, Attic, and Koine. It’s all in antiquity, hence Ancient, and it’s all the same language
2) Modern Demotic Greek is very clearly a different language from Ancient Greek, more different than Italian from Latin.
Mediaeval Greek is transitional in a variety of very complex respects
@@polyMATHY_Luke You lump Epic and Koine together? but not Koine and Modern? That's a hot take for sure.
Of course there is no objective measure for what a different language is. Serbian and Croatian are different languages, after all. They say a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.
I used to say /dz/ for zeta. I feel like I should confess this and be absolved. Is this the right place for such help?
It is th-cam.com/play/PLQQL5IeNgck38fprhBTEJUstVp5Gjmk7K.html
Sampi and qoppi were borrowed from phoenician alphabet, isn't it?