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As an italian, i feel personally attacked by the accurate imitation at the very beginning of this video. So i'm going to express my disappointment by subscribing to this interesting channel
And even more clearly Quintilian tells us here: "c littera, *quae ad omnis vocalis vim suam perferat.* " "the letter c *which maintains its strength when followed with all the vowels.* " (In this context he's talking about why K is a useless letter, because C always makes the same sound regardless of what vowel follows)
Hi Paleogloss, I just would like to make a clarification on this passage from Quintilian. If we analyze the text, Quintilian does not say that the letter C maintains the "same" strength in front of all vowels (this would have been an unequivocal affirmation in favor of the sound always as "K"), but simply says that the letter C maintains "its" strength in front of all vowels: but what strength? Its strength, i.e. diction, in front of the vowels I and E could be different from its strength, i.e. diction, in front of A, O and U. So in my opinion, this passage is not conclusive. Since the letter K was used only in front of the letter A, Quintilian is telling us that he considers useless to use it, since there is a C, which in front of the A has the same sound as the K (but in front of the A, therefore it is not saying nothing about the sound of the C in front of the vowels E and I)
@@danieled1135 How could its strength before I and E be different from its strength before other vowels if, as Quintilian says, it preserves its strength before *all* vowels? Of course K was used only before A in Latin, but if Quintilian meant to tell us that K is useless because C has the same sound before A as before O and U specifically, he absolutely would not have said 'C retains its force before all vowels'. No, it's quite clear that what Quintilian is saying is that the sound that K makes before A is the same sound that C makes before all other vowels. Of course, if this were the only piece of evidence nobody would claim to be as certain as we are, but the following facts confirm Quintilian's statement: -Latin CI and CE is always transcribed in Greek as κι κε (e.g. Cicero -> Κικέρων). Compare this to Italian words borrowed into Greek where CI and CE are borrowed as τσι τσε, e.g. 'circo' -> 'τσιρκο'. You will also hear this when any Greek speaks Italian - the Italian ci/ce sound is interpreted by Greeks as τσ, and they regularly fail to distinguish ci/ce from zi/ze. -Morphophonological alternations in Romance prove that a process of palatalization has occurred, e.g. 'conosco/conosci', 'amico/amici' - these sorts of alternations *always* come about through a secondary process of phonological shift. The question then is not whether /k/ became /t͡ʃ/, but when. The fact that Sardinian lacks this palatalization completely, and Dalmatian only had it before /i/ but not before /e/, allows us to be pretty much certain that it is a postclassical development -When palatalization of /tj/ to /ts/ occurs, the grammarians notice and are prescribing it by the 4th century. The notion that they wouldn't have noticed such a drastic palatalization as [k] -> [t͡ʃ] is pretty much impossible, especially in light of what Quintilian tells us. No speaker of Italian, even if they are never educated about historical phonology, would think that the letter C 'preserves its force before all vowels'. Italians are intimately aware of the alternations in words like 'amico', which is precisely why it feels so strange to them that Latin should lack these alternations.
@J Boss "You're the only person in the world who will ever read someone say "it maintains same strength" and interpret it as "well, its strength could vary" " --> Quintilian does not write that C letter maintains the same strength, but that it maintains its strength. Try to read more carefully and especially not to insult for free
@J Boss "C" soft sound (as in english word "child" or in italian "cibo") has its "strength". "C" hard sound (as in english word "cat" or in italian "cane") has its "strength", so the sound of "C" keeps its strength (palatal in one case, velar in the other) in all cases. The "C" sound in "cat" is not stronger than the "C" sound in "child", they are simply 2 different articulation points in the phonological apparatus, that keep their intrinsic diction. That is my interpretation of the Quintilianus passage
Mihi quoque! Cognoscere volo quare in Gallicanum romanum "caballum" est "cheval"; "caelum" est "ciel", sed "consilio" est "conseil" etiam "canem" est "chien" et "carnem" est "chair", deinde "caputem" est "chef", tandem "cannam" est "canne" et "captivum" est "captif". Sunt insani, iste Gallici!
@@PACotnoir1 probably because of the following vowel the pronunciation of /ae/ or separated n(vowel) ... e/i determines the vowel before. /a/ becomes /e/ or /i/. That's why *a* plus *a* didn't affect the consonant before /a/.
A linguistic and historical lesson. It’s amazing when you stop and think about it. All the languages that have been spoken over time and how annunciation and pronunciation are so very important.
Ecce litera 🤣🤣🤣 just love everything about this video! Your vivid explanations, your further videos for almost every topic, the look inside Pantheon and your armchair alter ego. Brill🤓iant 👏👏👏😘
Finally! I was really looking forward to see a video on this topic! Also Sardinian is such an interesting language, I’m glad you talked about it, also Albanian borrowed word, I remember having come across the word peshk/pishk, fish, and thought about how it retained the k, and doing research found there was a ton of Albanian words from Latin with the "hard c" and "hard g" sounds retained. One other thing that came to mind are cognates in Greek or Latin words borrowed from Greek (and some words in Greek borrowed from Latin at the time) like how we have ωκεανός or κέντρον with both the "hard c" sound in Greek (why would they have become k sounds in Latin), or how some evolutions retained the old k sound, like in French vaincre (to defeat) or Dalmatian kenur (to dine), lukierna (lamp), pask (fish), radaika (root), kanaisa (ash), gheluat (cold), fakir (to do) and others. Also in Celtic languages and in Basque there are many loan words that retained the k and g sound where it became the "soft c" sounds in Romance languages.
Absolutely! Other fastantic pieces of evidence. There is just so much to go on, that it's silly to think the Italian pronunciation of Latin was part of deep antiquity. Thanks for the comment!
@@polyMATHY_Luke No problem! Also little correction; I meant “also Albanian borrowed words *are interesting*”, you already did mention Albanian borrowed words in your video 😂
Also In logudorese/nuorese Sardinian dialects: kenare (lat. cenare, ital. cenare); kena (lat. cenam, ital. cena); luke/lughe (lat. lucem, ital. luce); piske (lat. piscem, ital. pesce); raike/raighe (lat. radicem, ital. radice); fakere/faghere (lat. facere, ital. fare); dulke (lat. dulcem, ital. dolce); kera (lat. ceram, ital. cera); piakere/piaghere (lat. placere, ital. piacere); naskere (lat. nasci, ital. nascere); deke/deghe (lat. decem, ital. dieci); kentu (lat. centum, ital. cento); iskire (lat. scire, ital. sapere); connoskere (lat. cognoscere, ital. conoscere); pake/paghe (lat. pacem, ital. pace); bokkire ma anche okkire (lat. occidere, ital. uccidere); boke/boghe ma anche oke/oghe (lat. vocem, ital. voce); kiterra/ghiterra (lat. cithara, da cui ital. chitarra, cetra); kito (lat. cito, ital. presto); kelu (lat. celum, ital. cielo); aghedu (lat. acetum, ital. aceto); iskidare (lat. excitare, ital. svegliare) and many others ....
@@tomasinaaddis6559 emmo bi sunt tantos faeddos in sardu cun sa retentzione de sonos sincheros latinos chi non esistant pius in sas atteras limbas romanigas
LOL those impressions were amazing. Also really fascinating video as always. Though, one can not help but ask, is that third episode of Barbarians' Latin still in the works, or has it been cancelled? I think you told me on Patreon that it was likely to come out by the end of March :D
Thanks! Yes, I have had a lot of projects lately, sorry for the long, long delay. The Ancient Greek in Action series has been a major focus since it's important for my private students. But I *will* do every episode of Barbarians. How could I not? 😃 Thanks so much for being a fan.
I'm almost sure the palatalization of Ce and Ci in portuguese (probably occured in the same way to spanish) - from latin /ke/ to modern /se/ - went through a middle stage /tse/, similar to italian /tʃe/, what makes me think that this change happened in vulgar latin... so, same for ge and gi, that would be /dʒe/ and /dʒi/. Not sure, though, but it would explain a lot how soft C happened in western romance languages...
In Croatian we have changes called sibilarization and palatalization where k, g, h change to c (as in tzatziki), z (as in zero), s (as in sun) or č (as in change), ž (as in genre), š (as in sheep) before e and i
In Breton, Latin loans with "c" in the initial keep the "k" sound: cena --> koen / koan (diner) cera --> koer / koar (wax) (The long "e" of Latin was first diphthonged into /we/, which later became /wa/, except in the southwestern third which has retained the diphthong /we/ to this day.) civitate --> keoded cella --> kell circulus --> kelc'h cerasum --> kerez (cherry)
Interestingly, in old translation of the bible to Church Slavonic, ce is pronounced "ke", while Russian eventually succeeded ce as "tse". Even the latin "c" is also named "tse"in Russian.
It is not 'ke' that's cause in old slavic languages had more than 5 vowels(east slavic still have them) but south slavic languages dont. E was ye, I was similar to yi and if you combine Kirilica where i is soft you get Ćirilica or with Ќ in macedonia as Ќ, Ѓ are macedonian versions of ć and đ. Also name of apostole is transcribed as Kýrillos(in honor to him Cyrilic scrip was named) which suggets iotation. So I guess C in Tsar too is from vulgar latin.
It is interesting to me that Arabic represented the Greek Kappa with the ق or /q/ sound in borrowed words. It shows you how different these sounds to the regular k or hard c in English since Arabic could have used that but didn't.
the reason is that kaf was, at the time, aspirated, and more of a fit for greek χ, this is usual in semitic languages. the emphatic consonants were used for the greek unaspirates, the plain semitic consonants were used for the greek aspirates.
Ciao Luke! Could you explain how the world Morbidus became “soft” in Italian? I heard some explanation of Chris from Kangoroo English, but I’d like to know how it happened. Muito obrigado!
That's a truly interesting idea! I think it's because "morbidus" implies weakness, and weak things, like kittens or babies, are soft: www.etimo.it/?term=morbido&find=Cerca
Good stuff as always Luke! When I was a kid learning Latin I was always struck by the odd way that the spelling of 'qui' changes as it declines, going from 'qui' to 'cuius' and 'cui' in the genitive and dative respectively across all genders. Does that signify a different pronunciation? Did 'cui' sound different to 'qui'? Or did speakers just rely on context to know what case they were using?
'cui' is /kuj/, 'qui' is /kʷiː/. If one were to roughly approximate this with English orthography, it would be something like 'cui' ='kooy', 'qui' = 'kwee'.
@@Philoglossos Thanks. That's more or less how I was taught to pronounce them at school and afterwards. It's just interesting to me that Latin uses different letters that make the same sound (q and c) to signify different stresses and sounds. As kids we were taught that Latin spelling and pronunciation were very basic ('just say what you see'), but that turns out not to be completely correct. I mean, when you think about it, those old Romans could have invented an accent system instead of using different spelling to denote this particular difference, 'quí' and 'qúi' perhaps. But they didn't. They used different letters to convey it. Also, in every day speech I wonder how different the two cases really sounded, and how much they relied on their native speaker knowledge to understand what was being said. Interesting! 🙂
@@richardhindley4459 Generally kʷ is actually analyzed as a separate phoneme (sound) from k, so it really is actually one sound per letter in this case - an accent system wouldn't work, because both 'cui' and 'qui' are monosyllabic. Also, the apex (similar to a modern accute accent) was used in inscriptions to mark vowel length
In Portuguese, qu often makes a [k] sound, but sometimes it can make a [kʷ] sound, like on the words "qual", "quase", "quarto", "consequência", "quinquênio".
And it' not an exception, many words (if not the majority) from the first declension with plural in -ci -cae are pronounced in italian -ki -ke. Es. amiche, ciechi, vacche, dischi, circhi, fuochi...
@@gmanga2 Those seem to be descended from the accusative forms in -as and -os. The S first turned into a semivocalic I, resulting in -aj and -oj, which later evolved into -e and -i. Another possibility is the consonant changing back from soft to hard to match the singular form (with a few exceptions like amico/amici). What's the situation in Romanian btw?
@@polyMATHY_Luke yes that would be great because some words in Latin that are not "c" geminated ending in "-cus" plural "-ci" evolved in being pronounced most as soft "-ci" but some as hard "-chi" in italian. Arco-Archi, antico-antichi, bosco-boschi, ceco-cechi, disco-dischi, opaco-opachi A video explantion of the reason, if there is any, would be great
Hey buddy Am I a traitor if i watch others latin tutorial? I found a tutorial that teaches tenses and forms for different types of verbs and such... And he does it in classical latin! : D I think latin is perfect. just Perfect.
I would be interested why the letter "L" is pronounced hard way especially at the beginning of the words and then very often in the middle or elsewhere very soft way like Slovak Ľ ( not L)
@@polyMATHY_Luke I meant like question, why is it so ? For example when you speak word with letter L at the beginning , you say hard L. However then in words in middle , you say softened L.
I think "C" in Classical Latin doesn't shift its pronunciation whether preceded by a vowels "e" or "i". Letter C is pronounced as hard "K". Maybe the word Caelum is pronounced as "Kae-lum", not "Chelum".
It is very unlikely that qu was still a real labiovelar in classical Latin: 1. Ter. Scaurus says " 'Quis' quidem per 'cuis' scribunt, quoniam supervacuam esse q litteram putant." A letter would hardly be considered superflous, if it represented a special kind of sound. 2. qu can make position in poetry (more often in post-classical times, but in some instances already very early, as in Lucretius or even in Plautus). So this sound is treated by the poets as kind of "muta cum liquida". 3. Wulfila did not use the latin q for the gothic [kʷ] sound, but invented an own letter, probably derived from greek digamma. 4. It is well known that qu before u had the simple [k] sound (antiquus = anticus); it doesn't make sense that the labial component should be lost in contact with the labial u vowel, where it should be most stable. Altogether, it can be assumed that latin qu was not different from its modern italian pronunciation [ ku̯ ] , with the exception that the vowel was fronted [ ky̯ ] before e, i and ae.
@@polyMATHY_Luke That qu and gu became p and b in some environments is no proof for labiodentals. In Romanian, the [k] sound became [p] also before alveolars (e.g. factum > fapt). And confer the development of old latin du > b (as in duellum > bellum), where no one would claim that 'du' was a mere "alveolar with lip rounding".
@@investmentgammler4550 None of your arguments make any sense. Firstly, ct ->pt in Romanian is a completely unrelated shift to [kʷ gʷ] -> [p b]. It's not so much a shift of /k/ to /p/ being conditioned by another sound, so much as a cluster shifting to another acoustically similar cluster. The labiovelars however are quite clearly undergoing a shift where they lose their velar component and become labial stops, otherwise we'd expect "limbua" rather than "limba". Secondly, Latin du didn't become b, [dʷ] became b. [dʷ] was written DV, but it certainly wasn't pronounced [du]. This is how we get alternations like duo which is bisyllabic and bis which was always monosyllabic. Now addressing the ones in your first comment: 1. Latin has no phonemic distinction between kʷ and kw, so there's really no reason why it couldn't be spelled CVIS except for the fact that it is later decided that CV represents a syllable where QV represents a single consonant. 2. and [w] can also be made into [u] in poetry, e.g. SILVA is really /silwa/ but it can become /silua/. That AQVA could be thought of as /ak.wa/ doesn't mean that it wasn't prototypically /a.kʷa/, and indeed that is how it's typically treated. 3. Wulfila is from the 4th century, presumably by that time the labiovelars had delabialized. It is around this time that we expect CI to be [ci~c͡çi~t͡ʃi] while QUI has become [ki]. In fact it is precisely this sound shift, the delabialization of the labiovelars, that makes it abundantly clear that this was the value of the sound in the classical period. /w/ on the other hand strengthened into [β~v]. 4. This is completely incoherent. ANTIQUUS was often spelled ANTICUS not because the two had already perfectly merged for all speakers, but because rather there's almost no auditory difference between [kʷu] and [ku]. The labial component is being lost in part because it sounds nearly the same in this context without it, and in part because the [u] vowel necessitates some degree of preemptive rounding in fluid speech no matter what. I mean hell, do I need to make a recording of [antik.wus] vs [antikʷus] vs [antikus] to demonstrate this? It really should be abundantly obvious that this is precisely the kind of environment where a labialization distinction would be neutralized. Your argument is as silly as trying to claim that modern Greek doesn't have palatal stops before front vowels because the distinction between palatal and non palatal stops is neutralized in that position. Like, of COURSE there's no distinction between labialized and non labialized stops before a tightly labialized vowel!!! 5. This is one of the biggest mistakes Sydney Allen makes in his reconstruction. The labiovelars certainly weren't palatalized before /i/ and /e/, because then there's no explanation for why they ended up as non palatalized [ki ke] in most of romance once the velars in that position palatalized. This assumption is mostly based on comparisons to Greek phonology which are problematic because Greek lacked short /u/ and so a Greek speaker would necessarily pronounce κουις as /ku.is/ as opposed to κυις which would seem like a closer approximation to a Greek of Latin /kʷi/.
You can see the same kind of development in some Germanic languages. The German word for basement is Keller, with a hard K (derived from Latin cellarium, same root as cellar). In Danish this is kælder and dutch kelder, both also with a hard K. But in Norwegian (kjeller) and Swedish (källare) the k becomes soft, like an Italian ce sound.
The soft k in Swedish and Norwegian isn't a postalveolar affricate, though (at least in standard varieties), but a palato-alveolar fricative like Japanese sh or Chinese x.
The difference between [kʷ] in Latin and [kw] in English or Italian is interesting. But I think maybe you should have said, at 11:44, that the [kʷ] sound, where [k] and [w] sounds are articulated at the same time, is a "labialized voiceless velar stop." And "labio-velar" is rather for [kw], which is a sequence of [k] (velar stop) and [w] (labio-velar approximant). Source here. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labialization
Right. You’re just asking I add additional specific terms? Given the context, it was unnecessary. I’m well aware of the precise phonology and terminology
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you for your reply! I'm not so familiar with the terminology and was just a bit confused with the slight difference I thought existed between your explanation and the article on Wikipedia. Now I understand [kʷ] is surely a labio-velar sound, thanks to your reply.
While the palatalization of ce/ci and ge/gi is somewhat logical and understandable, the palatalization of the consonantal "y" sound (realized as "j" in Romance) is more puzzling to me.
Actually as a Portuguese speaker (and here the “c” never developed to “tche”) it’s actually very different to speak “gue” and “tche”. I can’t imagine this being a natural evolution.
Polish pronunciation of Latin with 1000IQ: C before a, o, u and at the end of words: /k/ C before i, e, æ/œ (pronounced /e/ here): /ts/ (same as Polish c) We also sometimes turn ti into /tsj/ (j as English y or Latin consonant i/j) and q is always /kv/ To be fair, it ain't that far from Ecclesiastical Latin. G is always hard G though and h is pronounced, and y is Polish y which is similar to i in English word "bit", and a vowel between ee and German ü/Latin-greek y/Japanese u closer to ee Edit: and obviously, we pronounce v as /v/
@@polyMATHY_Luke it is but it also reflects how loanwords from Latin are pronounced. And Polish has A LOT of them, allegedly the most out of slavic languages, as our nobles loved using Latin and it was a bit of an official language in Commonwealth. When Russians governed their part of Poland in 19th century (no independent Poland) they were furious how many latinisms are there in Polish, especially as they were crazy on Panslavic movement. As an example, a sentence from a Polish book about Latin containing mostly Latinisms: "Minister poinformował o sfinalizowaniu paktu o nieagresji w bilateralnych negocjacjach z reprezentantami prezydenta". It is a bit on a too formal side but still is a proper sentence that could appear in an article. Anyways, I really appreciate your channel as someone who is really fond of Latin, at HS level I did a bit more (national competition) but it was never about speaking Latin ("some professors are able to speak it at a conversational level") which isn't particularly bad as it was pretty interesting, however now, after some time, if I have time and motivation I'll try learning by myself. Good grammar book already in possession and I'm interested in the language, even if I only speak Polish, English and a bit of German (need to relearn as after HS didn't use the last one). Once again, you're doing a wonderful job. Salvus sit! (Which is a prefered goodbye for PL Latin users as vale in our pronunciation is a homophone of a word that won't be taken seriously...)
"It is natural for [ke] and [ge] to change into [ce] and [ʝe]." Meanwhile, in the German language, people changing to pronunciation of "Chemie" [çeˈmiː] into [keˈmiː] because they find the [ç]-sound in front of i/e too difficult.
Well, tsar is what I understand the russian version of the word. And up here in Sweden, we say kejsare but this is pronunced with a soft sound, kind of like 'sheisare'. So it went from kaiser to sheisare or from latin? I don't know, but the fact that kaiser is pronunced with hard k does not "prove" anything. I think what he is really saying in the video is that they have picked one dialect of the latin language as the official dialect. Which is fine.
@@Psykorr I think it is a similar shift from /k/ sound to /ts/, /s/ or similar to English *sh* before weak vowels like e or i as in Swedish. The k before kötbullar is also like a sh sound. So I think the Swedish took the word from German and made the a sound in the diphthong unrounded to an e sound which caused sh sound for k. Otherwise I think the Swedes would have loaned it when it was already a ts sound or a tsh sound as in vulgar Latin. Whereas German has it directly from Latin in classic times.
@@christopherellis2663 I recently learned that Venetian traditionally has the same /θ/ as European Spanish, however most modern speakers just use /s/ under influence from Italian.
Although Basque is not a romance language it has many words of latin and romance origin. Depending on when a word was borrowed it may retain the classical pronunciation of Latin. Some examples: bake (
Nessuno ama l'umanità più dei linguisti e con questo intendo l'umanità tutta, passata e presente. E anche nel momento in cui una lingua sia lontana dal gusto personale, la trattate sempre con estremo rispetto. Il linguaggio è qualcosa di vivo, proprio come noi, nelle sue molteplici forme si evolve influenzando e influenzandosi continuamente. Non esiste esclusione, non esiste emarginazione, e se qualcuno mai avanzasse, anche ingenuamente, queste tesi nello studio delle lingue... semplicemente non sarebbe un linguista. So, for you Luke only love and respect.
@@johngurlides9157 Russian "c" is different story. I wrote how do we promounce Latin "c" in variuos words. by the way.... again same thing with name of Russian alphabet (not only Russian actually as originally this alphabet was created for Bolgarians from Greek alphabet) - it called "cyrillic" and we pronounce it as "Kirillic"
As a slavist to me this rings many bells; the centum, satem references and the velar palatalisations that occurred over time through the slavic world. I only managed 1 year of Latin at school - really must revisit. Thanks.
What is weird for us Spanish speakers is how we isolated ourselves so much with c, j, g and x when it used to be very similar if not the same as any other Romance language
Old Latin had an interesting rule where the velar stop was written differently depending on the letter after it. Before O and U it was Q, before E and I it was C, and before everything else it was K. For example, Kalends is written with a K.
I would call Albanian: a ”near-language-isolate”, though; because it is still, technically, an Indo-European language; and thus, it technically has relatives, albeit distant ones; unlike *_”TRUE”_* language isolates, like Korean (if you don’t consider the various dialects, as separate languages), and Purépecha 🇦🇱.
A few remarks about Albanian (from an Albanian language specialist): It is positively surprising that you mention Albanian here! I have been casually watching your old videos in the past few weeks and they are, as always, incredibly informative and amusing. However, some of the examples taken for Albanian are not entirely adequate. The ancestors of modern Albanian speakers have indeed been in contact with Latin starting from about the 2nd century BC -- however, this contact stretched out for many centuries hence, which means that Latin itself changed and local proto-Romance idioms started forming in the Balkans adjacent to and among the areas were Albanian was spoken (e.g. Proto-Romanian, Proto-Dalmatian, etc.) This naturally makes it quite pain-staking to know which idiom is the source of a given word in Albanian, but we have a general idea of what words are significantly older than others. For one, gjeni 'genius' is definitely a modern borrowing from Romance and cannot be grouped with the rest of the words mentioned. On the other hand, qind /cind/ 'hundred' < lat. centum and gjind /ɟind/ < lat. gentem are completely right and most likely belong to the older set of borrowed lexical units. Other words that are certainly older belong to church terminology (as Christianity was brought to the Albanian-speakers through the Roman Empire) and some of them also show this change: kryq /kɾyc/ 'cross' from lat. crux (acc. crucem), engjëll /ˈɛnɟəɫ/ 'angel', ungjill /unˈɟiɫ/ 'gospel' < ēvangelium; some personal names also belong to this group, e.g. Gjergj /ɟɛɾɟ/ < lat. Geōrgius. However, the palatalisation of velar plosives preceding front vowels likely happened within Albanian (and wasn't directly borrowed from Latin) as Albanian most likely did not have a /ɟ/ and /c/ sound at the time the oldest Latin borrowings, so they couldn't have been rendered as such. This is obvious if we look at verbal borrowings such as dërgon /dəɾˈgɔn/ 'he/she sends/ < lat. dīrigere (most likely borrowed from the infinitive or the third person singular dīrigit, both of which have a g + front vowel) whereby the stem dīrig- /ˈdiːriɡ/ (and not /ˈdiːriɟ/!) was fitted within the -on type of the first conjugation in Albanian, and as such remains unpalatalized today (compare Italian dirigere /diˈrid͡ʒere/). On the other hand, verbs like (më) pëlqen /pəlˈcɛn/ 'he/she likes' < lat. placēre, whereby the stem /plak-/ was fitted within the -en type of the first conjugation and, being now in front of /e/, it was ultimately palatalized within Albanian during the next few centuries. Albanian is a wonderful language to study, especially if we want to understand more about how significant the influence of Latin was all over the Roman Empire. If you'd be interested to do something in this direction, let me know! Best, Plator
All Slavic languages had three palatalization, and Kashubian (minority language used in the North of Polnd) had also the fourth one. For example the capital of Ukraine in Kashubian is Czijów (/tʃijof/) ;)
Haha it's still a part of many native speakers' speech, mostly found in the Western US and in Scotland. It's not naturally a part of my speech, but I have voluntarily trained myself to do it, since I deal with archaic pronunciations is many languages. Just like my intervocalic T, I sometimes make it clear, and othe times I do not. When I read about Roman grammarians recommending older more conservative pronunciations 2000 years ago, and then I follow their advice, it seems okay for me to add some archaizing variety to my own speech, no? 😃
@@polyMATHY_Luke Fair enough! It sounded intentional, but I didn't know it was still a natural part of English in some places. I know you already did a video on 'ρ' and its aspiration, but perhaps the similitude between 'ρ' and 'wh' will intrigue some people, should you ever find occasion to mention it.
It's not super common, but it's by no means abnormal - check out Japanese for instance, which has borrowed almost the entire Chinese number system, with the original Japonic numerals being used in only certain contexts.
This reminds me of a story my grandpa used to tell me before he, well... "relinquerit animam", so to speak: imagine being a little kid in early 1930's Sicily, Arethusa's district of Syracuse to be exact. Your education mostly comes from the friars and monks that run the only school in town that your family could afford and you love being there, reading all sorts of literature and scientific texts. The monks heavily hammer on all forms of Greek and Latin, so you can easily read all the texts in the library. One day, they find you reading De Bello Gallico with an Ecclesiastic pronunciation, one of the monks gives you a slap on the back side of your head. "Caesar with the pronounciation of Saint Peter? Do it right, boy, you have to use the Classical in this case!" Sometimes, things never change XD
Not meming I swear, I just had a talk with my 6 year old about why we have the letter "c". Couldn't actually come up with the reason other than "It's from an older system." She's right that the words that use c in English could have a k or an s. I used the example of "Ch" sounds needing c. Anyway this subject is not by any means wonky; children see the the basic logic behind this stuff as inconsistent without an historical lesson they're not given until much later.
I love this channel, I'm an Albanian myself and i am fascinated by Languages and lately by Latin too. Lately i noticed how much Latin words i subconsciously used in my language without really thinking of it. The Albanian language itself is very very old and rich, but many words are forgotten and replaced by Latin ones. Out of 10 words of today's Albanian, 5 or 6 are solid Latin, for example: Ështe from Est= It is Dërgoj from Dirigo= Send Herë from Hora= Time (one more time) Pëllumb from Palumbus= Bird Popull from Populus=People Rrugë from Ruga= Road or path Shigjetar from Sagittarius= Bowman Qiell from Caelum= Sky Shpatull from Spatula= Shoulder Shtrat from Stratum= Bed Paqe from Pax= Peace Peshk from Piscis= Fish E Martë from Dies Martis= Tuesday E Mërkurë from Dies Mercurii= Thursday Etc
Hey Luke, interestingly these sound changes from k to ch and s can also be found in Dravidian languages. Linguists also consider the velar "k" sounds were pronounced in ancient Dravidian languages. Many modern Dravidian languages like Telugu, Tamizh, Malayalam pronounce it as "ch", where Kannada also a Dravidian language pronounced as "k" and "g". And also interestingly many c and s changes have occurred due to front vowels in between them. For example the Dravidian word for hand in all languages is "kai" or "kay", but the Dravidian word for "do" differs with Kannada and other Dravidian languages. In Tamizh it is "cheyi" and in Telugu it is "chēsi". But in Kannada it is "gēydu" with velar g. We can find enormous example like these. In Tamil, the word for red is "sevempu" but in Kannada it is "kempu". In Tamil the word for small or tiny is "Chiru", but in Kannada it is "Kiru". So here Kannada retains the original Dravidian "k" sounds as like sardinian in romance languages.
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Great video by Metatron. But he has some speech defect I can’t quite pin down exactly what it is.
As an italian, i feel personally attacked by the accurate imitation at the very beginning of this video. So i'm going to express my disappointment by subscribing to this interesting channel
Hahah grazie mille, amico mio. Benvenuto!
🇮🇹
lol.
This is highly interesting! Do please continue!
Ma lo puoi mandare il testo in latino
And even more clearly Quintilian tells us here:
"c littera, *quae ad omnis vocalis vim suam perferat.* "
"the letter c *which maintains its strength when followed with all the vowels.* "
(In this context he's talking about why K is a useless letter, because C always makes the same sound regardless of what vowel follows)
Ah there it is! Why were you busy earlier today when I needed you? 😂 Thanks, my man! Great quote.
Hi Paleogloss, I just would like to make a clarification on this passage from Quintilian. If we analyze the text, Quintilian does not say that the letter C maintains the "same" strength in front of all vowels (this would have been an unequivocal affirmation in favor of the sound always as "K"), but simply says that the letter C maintains "its" strength in front of all vowels: but what strength? Its strength, i.e. diction, in front of the vowels I and E could be different from its strength, i.e. diction, in front of A, O and U. So in my opinion, this passage is not conclusive. Since the letter K was used only in front of the letter A, Quintilian is telling us that he considers useless to use it, since there is a C, which in front of the A has the same sound as the K (but in front of the A, therefore it is not saying nothing about the sound of the C in front of the vowels E and I)
@@danieled1135 How could its strength before I and E be different from its strength before other vowels if, as Quintilian says, it preserves its strength before *all* vowels? Of course K was used only before A in Latin, but if Quintilian meant to tell us that K is useless because C has the same sound before A as before O and U specifically, he absolutely would not have said 'C retains its force before all vowels'. No, it's quite clear that what Quintilian is saying is that the sound that K makes before A is the same sound that C makes before all other vowels.
Of course, if this were the only piece of evidence nobody would claim to be as certain as we are, but the following facts confirm Quintilian's statement:
-Latin CI and CE is always transcribed in Greek as κι κε (e.g. Cicero -> Κικέρων). Compare this to Italian words borrowed into Greek where CI and CE are borrowed as τσι τσε, e.g. 'circo' -> 'τσιρκο'. You will also hear this when any Greek speaks Italian - the Italian ci/ce sound is interpreted by Greeks as τσ, and they regularly fail to distinguish ci/ce from zi/ze.
-Morphophonological alternations in Romance prove that a process of palatalization has occurred, e.g. 'conosco/conosci', 'amico/amici' - these sorts of alternations *always* come about through a secondary process of phonological shift. The question then is not whether /k/ became /t͡ʃ/, but when. The fact that Sardinian lacks this palatalization completely, and Dalmatian only had it before /i/ but not before /e/, allows us to be pretty much certain that it is a postclassical development
-When palatalization of /tj/ to /ts/ occurs, the grammarians notice and are prescribing it by the 4th century. The notion that they wouldn't have noticed such a drastic palatalization as [k] -> [t͡ʃ] is pretty much impossible, especially in light of what Quintilian tells us. No speaker of Italian, even if they are never educated about historical phonology, would think that the letter C 'preserves its force before all vowels'. Italians are intimately aware of the alternations in words like 'amico', which is precisely why it feels so strange to them that Latin should lack these alternations.
@J Boss "You're the only person in the world who will ever read someone say "it maintains same strength" and interpret it as "well, its strength could vary" " --> Quintilian does not write that C letter maintains the same strength, but that it maintains its strength. Try to read more carefully and especially not to insult for free
@J Boss "C" soft sound (as in english word "child" or in italian "cibo") has its "strength". "C" hard sound (as in english word "cat" or in italian "cane") has its "strength", so the sound of "C" keeps its strength (palatal in one case, velar in the other) in all cases. The "C" sound in "cat" is not stronger than the "C" sound in "child", they are simply 2 different articulation points in the phonological apparatus, that keep their intrinsic diction. That is my interpretation of the Quintilianus passage
I'd like to see a video about why CE; CI; GE and GI sound the way they do in Portuguese, French and Spanish.
Coming right up, my friend!
Mihi quoque! Cognoscere volo quare in Gallicanum romanum "caballum" est "cheval"; "caelum" est "ciel", sed "consilio" est "conseil" etiam "canem" est "chien" et "carnem" est "chair", deinde "caputem" est "chef", tandem "cannam" est "canne" et "captivum" est "captif". Sunt insani, iste Gallici!
Your wish is an order ... Emperor
@@laurapavone3513 Timeunt usque laborunt!
@@PACotnoir1 probably because of the following vowel the pronunciation of /ae/ or separated n(vowel) ... e/i determines the vowel before. /a/ becomes /e/ or /i/. That's why *a* plus *a* didn't affect the consonant before /a/.
I would have never thought that I'd see my language (Albanian) be mentioned in your videos. I'm teary!
I wish I had more time to study Albanian 😊
@@polyMATHY_Luke studying Albanian in your case is really useful: you learn a new language, and you can make a new GOTCHA video lmao
A linguistic and historical lesson. It’s amazing when you stop and think about it. All the languages that have been spoken over time and how annunciation and pronunciation are so very important.
Indeed! I agree with you very much. It's fascinating.
-"We need to travel to the emerald isle of..."
-*excited Irish noises*
-"...Sardinia"
-*sad Irish noises*
Yey, Luke mentions us! We are a linguistic fossil! Kisses and hugs from Sardinia! ❤️ Candu beni inoghe?
Ciao! Scusa se ti scrivo in italiano. Sono contento se è piaciuto il mio discorso. Non ho capito la frase in sardo.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Candu < quando
Beni < venis
Inoghe < in hoc(ce) = here
Had to look up inoghe, I admit it :).
Damn. That's basically latin. Luke should have understood :)
@@mickgorro Correct! We want you here 😘
@@mickgorro Si dovrebbe dire "cando benis a inoghe" perché in sardo si esprime sempre il moto a /da o stato inluogo
"Ecce littera!" I spit out my vino in laughter!
I wake up late in the morning, just to find a new video waiting for me. Thank you, Luke, you made my day!
*Η καλημέρα από το πρωί φαίνεται* ☀️
His commitment to the ecclesiastical latin disclaimer.
Respect.
Linguriosa is very good, I'm glad you're following her. :-)
She's my favorite.
I watch her for the jokes and her impersonations of RAE guy
In italian and I personally pronounce as [kʷ] and in even contrast [kʷɔ] "e.g. quota" from [kwɔ] "e.ɡ. cuoco"
That is exactly how Classical Latin "qu" was contrasted with "cu".
Ecce litera 🤣🤣🤣 just love everything about this video! Your vivid explanations, your further videos for almost every topic, the look inside Pantheon and your armchair alter ego. Brill🤓iant 👏👏👏😘
Danke schön, amīcissima! 😃
Finally! I was really looking forward to see a video on this topic!
Also Sardinian is such an interesting language, I’m glad you talked about it, also Albanian borrowed word, I remember having come across the word peshk/pishk, fish, and thought about how it retained the k, and doing research found there was a ton of Albanian words from Latin with the "hard c" and "hard g" sounds retained.
One other thing that came to mind are cognates in Greek or Latin words borrowed from Greek (and some words in Greek borrowed from Latin at the time) like how we have ωκεανός or κέντρον with both the "hard c" sound in Greek (why would they have become k sounds in Latin), or how some evolutions retained the old k sound, like in French vaincre (to defeat) or Dalmatian kenur (to dine), lukierna (lamp), pask (fish), radaika (root), kanaisa (ash), gheluat (cold), fakir (to do) and others. Also in Celtic languages and in Basque there are many loan words that retained the k and g sound where it became the "soft c" sounds in Romance languages.
Absolutely! Other fastantic pieces of evidence. There is just so much to go on, that it's silly to think the Italian pronunciation of Latin was part of deep antiquity. Thanks for the comment!
@@polyMATHY_Luke No problem! Also little correction; I meant “also Albanian borrowed words *are interesting*”, you already did mention Albanian borrowed words in your video 😂
Also In logudorese/nuorese Sardinian dialects: kenare (lat. cenare, ital. cenare); kena (lat. cenam, ital. cena); luke/lughe (lat. lucem, ital. luce); piske (lat. piscem, ital. pesce); raike/raighe (lat. radicem, ital. radice); fakere/faghere (lat. facere, ital. fare); dulke (lat. dulcem, ital. dolce); kera (lat. ceram, ital. cera); piakere/piaghere (lat. placere, ital. piacere); naskere (lat. nasci, ital. nascere); deke/deghe (lat. decem, ital. dieci); kentu (lat. centum, ital. cento); iskire (lat. scire, ital. sapere); connoskere (lat. cognoscere, ital. conoscere); pake/paghe (lat. pacem, ital. pace); bokkire ma anche okkire (lat. occidere, ital. uccidere);
boke/boghe ma anche oke/oghe (lat. vocem, ital. voce); kiterra/ghiterra (lat. cithara, da cui ital. chitarra, cetra); kito (lat. cito, ital. presto); kelu (lat. celum, ital. cielo); aghedu (lat. acetum, ital. aceto); iskidare (lat. excitare, ital. svegliare) and many others ....
@@tomasinaaddis6559 emmo bi sunt tantos faeddos in sardu cun sa retentzione de sonos sincheros latinos chi non esistant pius in sas atteras limbas romanigas
@@deoirdanandrei1512 Veru/beru este!
Oh!!! So that's why even in english, after 'Q' is always followed by 'U' and never any other vowels. Like QUeen, QUeue, QUick etc.
Right! It was cw in Old English. The qu convention was adopted from Latin.
The impressions are absolutely killing me 😂😂😂
after more than 10 years finally i know the answer to this. thanks for the very in depth explanation.
My pleasure!
Another excellent video! Of course you should do a video about the sound of these letters in french, spanish, portuguese!
Then I will! Thanks!
The Metatron gave you a shout out on his channel. Your video is great.
Thanks! We love Metatron
LOL those impressions were amazing. Also really fascinating video as always.
Though, one can not help but ask, is that third episode of Barbarians' Latin still in the works, or has it been cancelled? I think you told me on Patreon that it was likely to come out by the end of March :D
Thanks! Yes, I have had a lot of projects lately, sorry for the long, long delay. The Ancient Greek in Action series has been a major focus since it's important for my private students. But I *will* do every episode of Barbarians. How could I not? 😃 Thanks so much for being a fan.
I'm almost sure the palatalization of Ce and Ci in portuguese (probably occured in the same way to spanish) - from latin /ke/ to modern /se/ - went through a middle stage /tse/, similar to italian /tʃe/, what makes me think that this change happened in vulgar latin... so, same for ge and gi, that would be /dʒe/ and /dʒi/. Not sure, though, but it would explain a lot how soft C happened in western romance languages...
You got it!
9:17 like in the arabic qaf ق
Sai imitare un italiano che parla inglese senza sembrare super Mario...
QI200
Thank you
In albanian qytet < lat. cīvitātem, qiqër < lat. cicer. These words must have entered early in proto-albanian considering the phonology.
also peshk from piscis :-)
In Croatian we have changes called sibilarization and palatalization where k, g, h change to c (as in tzatziki), z (as in zero), s (as in sun) or č (as in change), ž (as in genre), š (as in sheep) before e and i
👍👍👍
In Breton, Latin loans with "c" in the initial keep the "k" sound:
cena --> koen / koan (diner)
cera --> koer / koar (wax)
(The long "e" of Latin was first diphthonged into /we/, which later became /wa/, except in the southwestern third which has retained the diphthong /we/ to this day.)
civitate --> keoded
cella --> kell
circulus --> kelc'h
cerasum --> kerez (cherry)
I would love to see a video by you about the origin of Latin and Romans, where did they come from and so on.
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Interestingly, in old translation of the bible to Church Slavonic, ce is pronounced "ke", while Russian eventually succeeded ce as "tse". Even the latin "c" is also named "tse"in Russian.
It is not 'ke' that's cause in old slavic languages had more than 5 vowels(east slavic still have them) but south slavic languages dont. E was ye, I was similar to yi and if you combine Kirilica where i is soft you get Ćirilica or with Ќ in macedonia as Ќ, Ѓ are macedonian versions of ć and đ.
Also name of apostole is transcribed as Kýrillos(in honor to him Cyrilic scrip was named) which suggets iotation. So I guess C in Tsar too is from vulgar latin.
It is interesting to me that Arabic represented the Greek Kappa with the ق or /q/ sound in borrowed words. It shows you how different these sounds to the regular k or hard c in English since Arabic could have used that but didn't.
the reason is that kaf was, at the time, aspirated, and more of a fit for greek χ, this is usual in semitic languages. the emphatic consonants were used for the greek unaspirates, the plain semitic consonants were used for the greek aspirates.
Ciao Luke! Could you explain how the world Morbidus became “soft” in Italian?
I heard some explanation of Chris from Kangoroo English, but I’d like to know how it happened.
Muito obrigado!
That's a truly interesting idea! I think it's because "morbidus" implies weakness, and weak things, like kittens or babies, are soft: www.etimo.it/?term=morbido&find=Cerca
@@polyMATHY_Luke grazie mille!
Show us how amazing it is all languages!
"Original" Latin's 'Caesar' sounds exactly like the German 'Kaiser'. Well, pretty much exactly.
tj and cj next pleaaase :D
Yes! I complicated and fun story.
I'm distracted by Luke's eyebrows
Me too, honestly.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Haha! Love your content Luke! Big Fan😊
I was going to do an imitation like you did in a video about the same subject! lol.
Haha do so!
Good stuff as always Luke! When I was a kid learning Latin I was always struck by the odd way that the spelling of 'qui' changes as it declines, going from 'qui' to 'cuius' and 'cui' in the genitive and dative respectively across all genders. Does that signify a different pronunciation? Did 'cui' sound different to 'qui'? Or did speakers just rely on context to know what case they were using?
'cui' is /kuj/, 'qui' is /kʷiː/. If one were to roughly approximate this with English orthography, it would be something like 'cui' ='kooy', 'qui' = 'kwee'.
@@Philoglossos Thanks. That's more or less how I was taught to pronounce them at school and afterwards. It's just interesting to me that Latin uses different letters that make the same sound (q and c) to signify different stresses and sounds. As kids we were taught that Latin spelling and pronunciation were very basic ('just say what you see'), but that turns out not to be completely correct. I mean, when you think about it, those old Romans could have invented an accent system instead of using different spelling to denote this particular difference, 'quí' and 'qúi' perhaps. But they didn't. They used different letters to convey it. Also, in every day speech I wonder how different the two cases really sounded, and how much they relied on their native speaker knowledge to understand what was being said. Interesting! 🙂
@@richardhindley4459 Generally kʷ is actually analyzed as a separate phoneme (sound) from k, so it really is actually one sound per letter in this case - an accent system wouldn't work, because both 'cui' and 'qui' are monosyllabic. Also, the apex (similar to a modern accute accent) was used in inscriptions to mark vowel length
In Portuguese, qu often makes a [k] sound, but sometimes it can make a [kʷ] sound, like on the words "qual", "quase", "quarto", "consequência", "quinquênio".
True
An example that occurs to me is the word "saccus" "sacci" in Italian we still say Sacchi. Was this sound retained because of c gemination?
That's a fascinating problem! I'll address it some day.
And it' not an exception, many words (if not the majority) from the first declension with plural in -ci -cae are pronounced in italian -ki -ke. Es. amiche, ciechi, vacche, dischi, circhi, fuochi...
@@gmanga2 Those seem to be descended from the accusative forms in -as and -os. The S first turned into a semivocalic I, resulting in -aj and -oj, which later evolved into -e and -i. Another possibility is the consonant changing back from soft to hard to match the singular form (with a few exceptions like amico/amici).
What's the situation in Romanian btw?
@@polyMATHY_Luke yes that would be great because some words in Latin that are not "c" geminated ending in "-cus" plural "-ci" evolved in being pronounced most as soft "-ci" but some as hard "-chi" in italian.
Arco-Archi, antico-antichi, bosco-boschi, ceco-cechi, disco-dischi, opaco-opachi
A video explantion of the reason, if there is any, would be great
This change is found in other languages too.
yaaay, you mentioned Albania
What do you think about the polish pronunciation? Even Polish ecclesiastical Latin differs significantly from the Italian-ecclesiastical one...
This insnt that giant Mediterranean SPACHBUND!!!!!!!!😂😂😂😂
Hey buddy Am I a traitor if i watch others latin tutorial? I found a tutorial that teaches tenses and forms for different types of verbs and such... And he does it in classical latin! : D I think latin is perfect. just Perfect.
C in spanish has two pronunciations, well three like a c in the video, like a k and in the south and america like an s
I would be interested why the letter "L" is pronounced hard way especially at the beginning of the words and then very often in the middle or elsewhere very soft way like Slovak Ľ ( not L)
Nope. A common misconception
@@polyMATHY_Luke I meant like question, why is it so ? For example when you speak word with letter L at the beginning , you say hard L. However then in words in middle , you say softened L.
How, then would "cogito" be pronounced in classical Latin? Something like "CŌ-gee-toh" (with a hard g)?
Correct.
a similar change occurred in Chinese. Peking has become Beijing (Pek-gying > Pei-Jing)
I think "C" in Classical Latin doesn't shift its pronunciation whether preceded by a vowels "e" or "i". Letter C is pronounced as hard "K".
Maybe the word Caelum is pronounced as "Kae-lum", not "Chelum".
It is very unlikely that qu was still a real labiovelar in classical Latin:
1. Ter. Scaurus says " 'Quis' quidem per 'cuis' scribunt, quoniam supervacuam esse q litteram putant." A letter would hardly be considered superflous, if it represented a special kind of sound.
2. qu can make position in poetry (more often in post-classical times, but in some instances already very early, as in Lucretius or even in Plautus). So this sound is treated by the poets as kind of "muta cum liquida".
3. Wulfila did not use the latin q for the gothic [kʷ] sound, but invented an own letter, probably derived from greek digamma.
4. It is well known that qu before u had the simple [k] sound (antiquus = anticus); it doesn't make sense that the labial component should be lost in contact with the labial u vowel, where it should be most stable.
Altogether, it can be assumed that latin qu was not different from its modern italian pronunciation [ ku̯ ] , with the exception that the vowel was fronted [ ky̯ ] before e, i and ae.
It definitely was as I describe. Examine Romanian and Sardinian
@@polyMATHY_Luke That qu and gu became p and b in some environments is no proof for labiodentals. In Romanian, the [k] sound became [p] also before alveolars (e.g. factum > fapt). And confer the development of old latin du > b (as in duellum > bellum), where no one would claim that 'du' was a mere "alveolar with lip rounding".
@@investmentgammler4550 None of your arguments make any sense. Firstly, ct ->pt in Romanian is a completely unrelated shift to [kʷ gʷ] -> [p b]. It's not so much a shift of /k/ to /p/ being conditioned by another sound, so much as a cluster shifting to another acoustically similar cluster. The labiovelars however are quite clearly undergoing a shift where they lose their velar component and become labial stops, otherwise we'd expect "limbua" rather than "limba". Secondly, Latin du didn't become b, [dʷ] became b. [dʷ] was written DV, but it certainly wasn't pronounced [du]. This is how we get alternations like duo which is bisyllabic and bis which was always monosyllabic.
Now addressing the ones in your first comment:
1. Latin has no phonemic distinction between kʷ and kw, so there's really no reason why it couldn't be spelled CVIS except for the fact that it is later decided that CV represents a syllable where QV represents a single consonant.
2. and [w] can also be made into [u] in poetry, e.g. SILVA is really /silwa/ but it can become /silua/. That AQVA could be thought of as /ak.wa/ doesn't mean that it wasn't prototypically /a.kʷa/, and indeed that is how it's typically treated.
3. Wulfila is from the 4th century, presumably by that time the labiovelars had delabialized. It is around this time that we expect CI to be [ci~c͡çi~t͡ʃi] while QUI has become [ki]. In fact it is precisely this sound shift, the delabialization of the labiovelars, that makes it abundantly clear that this was the value of the sound in the classical period. /w/ on the other hand strengthened into [β~v].
4. This is completely incoherent. ANTIQUUS was often spelled ANTICUS not because the two had already perfectly merged for all speakers, but because rather there's almost no auditory difference between [kʷu] and [ku]. The labial component is being lost in part because it sounds nearly the same in this context without it, and in part because the [u] vowel necessitates some degree of preemptive rounding in fluid speech no matter what. I mean hell, do I need to make a recording of [antik.wus] vs [antikʷus] vs [antikus] to demonstrate this? It really should be abundantly obvious that this is precisely the kind of environment where a labialization distinction would be neutralized. Your argument is as silly as trying to claim that modern Greek doesn't have palatal stops before front vowels because the distinction between palatal and non palatal stops is neutralized in that position. Like, of COURSE there's no distinction between labialized and non labialized stops before a tightly labialized vowel!!!
5. This is one of the biggest mistakes Sydney Allen makes in his reconstruction. The labiovelars certainly weren't palatalized before /i/ and /e/, because then there's no explanation for why they ended up as non palatalized [ki ke] in most of romance once the velars in that position palatalized. This assumption is mostly based on comparisons to Greek phonology which are problematic because Greek lacked short /u/ and so a Greek speaker would necessarily pronounce κουις as /ku.is/ as opposed to κυις which would seem like a closer approximation to a Greek of Latin /kʷi/.
Hey, You still make new versions of this Excel with pronunciation? XD
Tenha cara de romano mesmo ❤
You can see the same kind of development in some Germanic languages. The German word for basement is Keller, with a hard K (derived from Latin cellarium, same root as cellar). In Danish this is kælder and dutch kelder, both also with a hard K. But in Norwegian (kjeller) and Swedish (källare) the k becomes soft, like an Italian ce sound.
The soft k in Swedish and Norwegian isn't a postalveolar affricate, though (at least in standard varieties), but a palato-alveolar fricative like Japanese sh or Chinese x.
The difference between [kʷ] in Latin and [kw] in English or Italian is interesting.
But I think maybe you should have said, at 11:44, that the [kʷ] sound, where [k] and [w] sounds are articulated at the same time, is a "labialized voiceless velar stop."
And "labio-velar" is rather for [kw], which is a sequence of [k] (velar stop) and [w] (labio-velar approximant).
Source here. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labialization
Right. You’re just asking I add additional specific terms? Given the context, it was unnecessary. I’m well aware of the precise phonology and terminology
@@polyMATHY_Luke
Thank you for your reply!
I'm not so familiar with the terminology and was just a bit confused with the slight difference I thought existed between your explanation and the article on Wikipedia. Now I understand [kʷ] is surely a labio-velar sound, thanks to your reply.
When you say "ku - ka - ki", it reminds me to Indonesia tongue twister : "Kaki kakak kakekku kaku-kaku"
You must be joking! I thought you are serious! I was wrong!
While the palatalization of ce/ci and ge/gi is somewhat logical and understandable, the palatalization of the consonantal "y" sound (realized as "j" in Romance) is more puzzling to me.
In some varieties of Spanish, initial y ir ll (as in yerba, llama, llueve, hiel etc) is pronounced as a voiced palatal plosive
Mia fidanzata mi picchia perche dico molte volte "rici" invece di "richi" e "amichi" invece di amici :)
Ave! Do you have a similar video for the letters U and V?
nvm found it
K in Latin makes the same sense as in English fight me if you can
Actually as a Portuguese speaker (and here the “c” never developed to “tche”) it’s actually very different to speak “gue” and “tche”. I can’t imagine this being a natural evolution.
it actually did develop to ‘tche’. then it merged with the ‘ts’ sound, which evolved separately from latin ‘ti’, and became ‘tse’.
How do you know how 1st century Latin sounded?
Here is the answer th-cam.com/video/Ft8XUE7honc/w-d-xo.html
@@polyMATHY_Luke Ta.
Polish pronunciation of Latin with 1000IQ:
C before a, o, u and at the end of words: /k/
C before i, e, æ/œ (pronounced /e/ here): /ts/ (same as Polish c)
We also sometimes turn ti into /tsj/ (j as English y or Latin consonant i/j) and q is always /kv/
To be fair, it ain't that far from Ecclesiastical Latin. G is always hard G though and h is pronounced, and y is Polish y which is similar to i in English word "bit", and a vowel between ee and German ü/Latin-greek y/Japanese u closer to ee
Edit: and obviously, we pronounce v as /v/
Yeah the traditional Slavic countries pronunciation is the same as German’s.
@@polyMATHY_Luke it is but it also reflects how loanwords from Latin are pronounced. And Polish has A LOT of them, allegedly the most out of slavic languages, as our nobles loved using Latin and it was a bit of an official language in Commonwealth. When Russians governed their part of Poland in 19th century (no independent Poland) they were furious how many latinisms are there in Polish, especially as they were crazy on Panslavic movement. As an example, a sentence from a Polish book about Latin containing mostly Latinisms: "Minister poinformował o sfinalizowaniu paktu o nieagresji w bilateralnych negocjacjach z reprezentantami prezydenta". It is a bit on a too formal side but still is a proper sentence that could appear in an article.
Anyways, I really appreciate your channel as someone who is really fond of Latin, at HS level I did a bit more (national competition) but it was never about speaking Latin ("some professors are able to speak it at a conversational level") which isn't particularly bad as it was pretty interesting, however now, after some time, if I have time and motivation I'll try learning by myself. Good grammar book already in possession and I'm interested in the language, even if I only speak Polish, English and a bit of German (need to relearn as after HS didn't use the last one). Once again, you're doing a wonderful job. Salvus sit! (Which is a prefered goodbye for PL Latin users as vale in our pronunciation is a homophone of a word that won't be taken seriously...)
"It is natural for [ke] and [ge] to change into [ce] and [ʝe]."
Meanwhile, in the German language, people changing to pronunciation of "Chemie" [çeˈmiː] into [keˈmiː] because they find the [ç]-sound in front of i/e too difficult.
Have a look on German *Kaiser* for Caesar, which is somewhat pronounced like the classical Latin one.
An excellent example!
I had this exact thought
It's interesting how both the word Kaiser and the name Cäsar are different in German
Well, tsar is what I understand the russian version of the word. And up here in Sweden, we say kejsare but this is pronunced with a soft sound, kind of like 'sheisare'. So it went from kaiser to sheisare or from latin? I don't know, but the fact that kaiser is pronunced with hard k does not "prove" anything.
I think what he is really saying in the video is that they have picked one dialect of the latin language as the official dialect. Which is fine.
@@Psykorr I think it is a similar shift from /k/ sound to /ts/, /s/ or similar to English *sh* before weak vowels like e or i as in Swedish. The k before kötbullar is also like a sh sound. So I think the Swedish took the word from German and made the a sound in the diphthong unrounded to an e sound which caused sh sound for k. Otherwise I think the Swedes would have loaned it when it was already a ts sound or a tsh sound as in vulgar Latin. Whereas German has it directly from Latin in classic times.
Ok the impression of an Italian speaking in English has killed me!!
As an Italian myself I can only say: bravo!
Ahaha sono contento e ti è piaciuto. 😅 Mi vergogna un po’, specialmente perché adoro l’Italia e gli italiani.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Hai fatto benissimo! We behave annoyingly every time we stay abroad. Especially on food! A bit of mockery is welcome 😊
I’ve heard stories about C and G, but I had never thought I would see it here. Truly a blessing.
The blessing is having the chance to share it with you and the rest of the viewers!
when will you release your next album? I'm your biggest fan EVER
It would be great if you talk about the " CE; CI; GE and GI pronunciation in Spanish, French and Portuguese :) Saludos!!!
You got it, Renato! 👍
Castilian has two versions of that.
That is interesting to know!
@@christopherellis2663 I recently learned that Venetian traditionally has the same /θ/ as European Spanish, however most modern speakers just use /s/ under influence from Italian.
@@alejandromartinezmontes6700 madridrileño, the rest of the country is happy with |s|
Although Basque is not a romance language it has many words of latin and romance origin. Depending on when a word was borrowed it may retain the classical pronunciation of Latin.
Some examples: bake (
We also say "lege" (lex ACC lege(m)/law), "merke" (merx/merchandise) (in Basque it means cheap), gerezi(a) (
Excellent examples! Yes, Basque has words both from ancient and more recent forms of Latin which is really neat.
Aupa Ander! Oso gustuko dut euskaldun beste bat hemen aurkitzea!
@@luismiguelcasal9162 Mis disculpas y sin ánimo de ofender, pero qué fue lo que escribió? Pura curiosidad nada más
@@Macharius89 Sin problema. "Hola Ander. Es un gran placer encontrarse aquí con otro vascoparlante"
Nessuno ama l'umanità più dei linguisti e con questo intendo l'umanità tutta, passata e presente.
E anche nel momento in cui una lingua sia lontana dal gusto personale, la trattate sempre con estremo rispetto.
Il linguaggio è qualcosa di vivo, proprio come noi, nelle sue molteplici forme si evolve influenzando e influenzandosi continuamente. Non esiste esclusione, non esiste emarginazione, e se qualcuno mai avanzasse, anche ingenuamente, queste tesi nello studio delle lingue... semplicemente non sarebbe un linguista.
So, for you Luke only love and respect.
Luke, your channel is a “whole vibe,” as the kids say these days 😌🤣
Do the kids say that? Thanks so much!
In an inscription from the claustrum of the Basilica di San Paolo fuori le Mura at Rome: "MARQE (...) REQESQ[E] IN PACE" (note C in "pace")
Ah grazie, amico mio! Infatti parlerò proprio di questo in un prossimo video.
C or G or K?
German, Russian, Vietnamese, Greek and some other languages: "Ok, we think we should recommend "kh" or /x/."
The rest: " What?"
Haha.
Actually Russian (and as I know German) use "ts" for "c" when "i", "e" vowels follow.
High German consonant shift: "Why not "kch" or /kx/?"
@@AlexxHO Russian got its C from the mediaeval (Byzantine) Greek sigma. It's always pronounced S.
@@johngurlides9157 Russian "c" is different story. I wrote how do we promounce Latin "c" in variuos words.
by the way.... again same thing with name of Russian alphabet (not only Russian actually as originally this alphabet was created for Bolgarians from Greek alphabet) - it called "cyrillic" and we pronounce it as "Kirillic"
You’ve inspired me to learn Classical Latin, thanks for such a quality channel
Thanks for the kind words! I recommend my LLPSI playlist on my other channel: th-cam.com/play/PLU1WuLg45SiyrXahjvFahDuA060P487pV.html
@@polyMATHY_Luke thanks! Checking it out !
As a slavist to me this rings many bells; the centum, satem references and the velar palatalisations that occurred over time through the slavic world. I only managed 1 year of Latin at school - really must revisit. Thanks.
These sounds also exist in some modern Greek dialects such as my native Cypriot, Cretan and South Italian
What is weird for us Spanish speakers is how we isolated ourselves so much with c, j, g and x when it used to be very similar if not the same as any other Romance language
Old Latin had an interesting rule where the velar stop was written differently depending on the letter after it. Before O and U it was Q, before E and I it was C, and before everything else it was K. For example, Kalends is written with a K.
That's right! I mentioned that in the video. 😊
@@polyMATHY_Luke could there be faliscan in the future or some niche member of other branches? a shoutout is great
Also bakhlos or bactrian is something else entirely tho in its heavenly horse trade instead in my time hearing it or the first exposure to it
I would call Albanian: a ”near-language-isolate”, though; because it is still, technically, an Indo-European language; and thus, it technically has relatives, albeit distant ones; unlike *_”TRUE”_* language isolates, like Korean (if you don’t consider the various dialects, as separate languages), and Purépecha 🇦🇱.
Brawissimo!
Gratie, Rapael! 😃
A few remarks about Albanian (from an Albanian language specialist):
It is positively surprising that you mention Albanian here! I have been casually watching your old videos in the past few weeks and they are, as always, incredibly informative and amusing. However, some of the examples taken for Albanian are not entirely adequate.
The ancestors of modern Albanian speakers have indeed been in contact with Latin starting from about the 2nd century BC -- however, this contact stretched out for many centuries hence, which means that Latin itself changed and local proto-Romance idioms started forming in the Balkans adjacent to and among the areas were Albanian was spoken (e.g. Proto-Romanian, Proto-Dalmatian, etc.) This naturally makes it quite pain-staking to know which idiom is the source of a given word in Albanian, but we have a general idea of what words are significantly older than others.
For one, gjeni 'genius' is definitely a modern borrowing from Romance and cannot be grouped with the rest of the words mentioned. On the other hand, qind /cind/ 'hundred' < lat. centum and gjind /ɟind/ < lat. gentem are completely right and most likely belong to the older set of borrowed lexical units. Other words that are certainly older belong to church terminology (as Christianity was brought to the Albanian-speakers through the Roman Empire) and some of them also show this change: kryq /kɾyc/ 'cross' from lat. crux (acc. crucem), engjëll /ˈɛnɟəɫ/ 'angel', ungjill /unˈɟiɫ/ 'gospel' < ēvangelium; some personal names also belong to this group, e.g. Gjergj /ɟɛɾɟ/ < lat. Geōrgius.
However, the palatalisation of velar plosives preceding front vowels likely happened within Albanian (and wasn't directly borrowed from Latin) as Albanian most likely did not have a /ɟ/ and /c/ sound at the time the oldest Latin borrowings, so they couldn't have been rendered as such. This is obvious if we look at verbal borrowings such as dërgon /dəɾˈgɔn/ 'he/she sends/ < lat. dīrigere (most likely borrowed from the infinitive or the third person singular dīrigit, both of which have a g + front vowel) whereby the stem dīrig- /ˈdiːriɡ/ (and not /ˈdiːriɟ/!) was fitted within the -on type of the first conjugation in Albanian, and as such remains unpalatalized today (compare Italian dirigere /diˈrid͡ʒere/). On the other hand, verbs like (më) pëlqen /pəlˈcɛn/ 'he/she likes' < lat. placēre, whereby the stem /plak-/ was fitted within the -en type of the first conjugation and, being now in front of /e/, it was ultimately palatalized within Albanian during the next few centuries.
Albanian is a wonderful language to study, especially if we want to understand more about how significant the influence of Latin was all over the Roman Empire. If you'd be interested to do something in this direction, let me know!
Best,
Plator
Fascinating! Sure, write to me at ScorpioMartianus @ gmail
Salve!
Virei fan do canal do princípio
@@danielimmortuos666 obrigado!
Latin lactus becomes Spanish leche
Why don't you talk about sonus medius u/i like optumus/optimus?
L'imitazione di un Italiano all'inizio mi ha steso😂😂
Ahahah 🤪😅
All Slavic languages had three palatalization, and Kashubian (minority language used in the North of Polnd) had also the fourth one. For example the capital of Ukraine in Kashubian is Czijów (/tʃijof/) ;)
That’s awesome!
When you aspirate the “w” in words like “what” and “why”, I find it simultaneously aggravating and fascinating. Can you make a video about that?
Haha it's still a part of many native speakers' speech, mostly found in the Western US and in Scotland. It's not naturally a part of my speech, but I have voluntarily trained myself to do it, since I deal with archaic pronunciations is many languages. Just like my intervocalic T, I sometimes make it clear, and othe times I do not.
When I read about Roman grammarians recommending older more conservative pronunciations 2000 years ago, and then I follow their advice, it seems okay for me to add some archaizing variety to my own speech, no? 😃
@@polyMATHY_Luke Fair enough! It sounded intentional, but I didn't know it was still a natural part of English in some places.
I know you already did a video on 'ρ' and its aspiration, but perhaps the similitude between 'ρ' and 'wh' will intrigue some people, should you ever find occasion to mention it.
The wh- aspiration is common in Ireland too.
I also aspirate it, but that's because I grew up in Ireland (for some time, at least).
Outside Avellino your dog might still be la gan’
I'd like to see that Spanish video :)
You got it!
Il video che tutti i latinisti italiani e italòfoni attendevano! Aahahah! Grazie mille, sempre interessantissimi come al solito i tuoi contenuti!
ironically enough, in Romanian ce ci sounds "che chi". but Che chi sounds "ke ki" ... why??? I don't know
Since, c was pronounced like k, ch was pronounced like kh (Greek chi/Cyrillic х) instead of English "ch".
Albanian "qind" is an interesting case. I thought numbers aren't usually borrowed.
It's not super common, but it's by no means abnormal - check out Japanese for instance, which has borrowed almost the entire Chinese number system, with the original Japonic numerals being used in only certain contexts.
Quality content, as usual!
Grazie, Davide!
This reminds me of a story my grandpa used to tell me before he, well... "relinquerit animam", so to speak: imagine being a little kid in early 1930's Sicily, Arethusa's district of Syracuse to be exact. Your education mostly comes from the friars and monks that run the only school in town that your family could afford and you love being there, reading all sorts of literature and scientific texts. The monks heavily hammer on all forms of Greek and Latin, so you can easily read all the texts in the library. One day, they find you reading De Bello Gallico with an Ecclesiastic pronunciation, one of the monks gives you a slap on the back side of your head. "Caesar with the pronounciation of Saint Peter? Do it right, boy, you have to use the Classical in this case!"
Sometimes, things never change XD
Not meming I swear, I just had a talk with my 6 year old about why we have the letter "c". Couldn't actually come up with the reason other than "It's from an older system." She's right that the words that use c in English could have a k or an s. I used the example of "Ch" sounds needing c. Anyway this subject is not by any means wonky; children see the the basic logic behind this stuff as inconsistent without an historical lesson they're not given until much later.
I love this channel, I'm an Albanian myself and i am fascinated by Languages and lately by Latin too. Lately i noticed how much
Latin words i subconsciously used in my language without really thinking of it. The Albanian language itself is very very old and rich, but many words are forgotten and replaced by Latin ones. Out of 10 words of today's Albanian, 5 or 6 are solid Latin, for example:
Ështe from Est= It is
Dërgoj from Dirigo= Send
Herë from Hora= Time (one more time)
Pëllumb from Palumbus= Bird
Popull from Populus=People
Rrugë from Ruga= Road or path
Shigjetar from Sagittarius= Bowman
Qiell from Caelum= Sky
Shpatull from Spatula= Shoulder
Shtrat from Stratum= Bed
Paqe from Pax= Peace
Peshk from Piscis= Fish
E Martë from Dies Martis= Tuesday
E Mërkurë from Dies Mercurii= Thursday
Etc
Thanks! I’m glad you like the channel
@@polyMATHY_Luke Yes it's amazing! Keep up the good work! + 1 more subscriber!
Who are you talking to amico-buddi?
😅
🇮🇹 ♥️ 🇮🇹 ♥️
Hey Luke, interestingly these sound changes from k to ch and s can also be found in Dravidian languages.
Linguists also consider the velar "k" sounds were pronounced in ancient Dravidian languages. Many modern Dravidian languages like Telugu, Tamizh, Malayalam pronounce it as "ch", where Kannada also a Dravidian language pronounced as "k" and "g". And also interestingly many c and s changes have occurred due to front vowels in between them. For example the Dravidian word for hand in all languages is "kai" or "kay", but the Dravidian word for "do" differs with Kannada and other Dravidian languages. In Tamizh it is "cheyi" and in Telugu it is "chēsi". But in Kannada it is "gēydu" with velar g. We can find enormous example like these. In Tamil, the word for red is "sevempu" but in Kannada it is "kempu". In Tamil the word for small or tiny is "Chiru", but in Kannada it is "Kiru". So here Kannada retains the original Dravidian "k" sounds as like sardinian in romance languages.