Lucian Pronunciation has been updated! See the Variants of Lucian Pronunciation video from 2023: th-cam.com/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/w-d-xo.html While this first video from 2020 on Lucian Pronunciation still contains much useful information, particularly on one of the variants (Samosatene Lucian), the entire system has been updated to include a total of six variants, meaning six conventions for different states of the Greek language in the Koine Period; watch the new video here: th-cam.com/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/w-d-xo.html Learn all SIX VARIANTS of LUCIAN PRONUNCIATION with my audiobook of Lucian's JUDGEMENT OF THE GODDESSES: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/lucians-judgement-of-the-goddesses-in-6-ancient-greek-pronunciations 🍎It includes a detailed pronunciation guide that resolves the questions raised by this video. Download the free Ancient Greek Pronunciation Chart here: expert-experimenter-2558.ck.page/abae340f49 Get my trilingual audiobook The Gospel of John recited in Ancient Greek in Lucian Pronunciation, as well as in Latin and English: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/gospel-of-john-english-latin-greek-trilingual-audiobook-text
There are elements of ancient pronunciation in the greek of some modern speakers, but it is not documented. I remember illiterate villagers in the 70s using έι for η, with a duration longer than ε but shorter than εε, λλ as two separated λ of equal duration, υ pronounced between ι and ου, κ pronnounced between κ and τσ, and so on, and even everyday words used in the ancient sense and not the modern one. Schools eliminated these differences.
My favorite Lucian story; two members of the Roman Empire were conversing. Said one, I performed a function for the Emperor so well that in appreciation he made me a Roman! His friend quipped, if he really wanted to reward you, he would have made you a Greek!
As a native Greek speaker, I am thrilled by this convention and believe it will help me learn ancient Greek and answer many doubts I have had for a long time about our modern Greek.
As a native Greek speaker I have learned to pronounce ancient greek using modern greek accent, yet I really appreciate your research on phonological history. I think your work is exceptional. Keep going.
Σε ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ! 🇬🇷 Θα ήθελα να ρωτήσω τη γνώμη σας επειδή είστε Έλληνες: τι πιστεύετε εάν αυτό το ηχητικό βιβλίο έχω ηχογραφήσει. Ακούγεται αρκετά κοντά σε μια ελληνική φωνή, παρόλο που είναι μια αρχαία προφορά; drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GFjDEJtpRUCZsoPitPfcaAvPtsrG1ilP
@@polyMATHY_Luke Ναι. Ακούγεται πάρα πολύ καλά. Ειδικά το σίγμα που συνήθως δυσκολεύει τους ξένους ομιλητές ακούγεται στο 95% των περιπτώσεων πολύ σωστό.
@@polyMATHY_Luke It is very pleasing to my modern greek ears, although the pronnounciation of the ou,ei,oi obviously sounds alien. I had to make an effort to understand the words that included these dipthongs.
This sounds very good to my native Greek ears . In my opinion this is the best approach to the real ancient pronunciation. Excellent work! It would be great if you also made a video about ancient Greek metrics in poetry.
Σε ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ! 😃 Είμαι πολύ χαρούμενος που σου αρέσει. 🇬🇷 Yes, I will definitely be making ones about Ancient Greek poetic meters in the future! Have you seen my videos on Latin meters? They are the same as the Greek meters (they learned from the Greeks, of course!)
@@JasonKatsanis we learn ancient greek by adapting the modern greek pronunciation to it. It is not perfect but it is better than erasmian for sure. I think that is the best for us Greek people, because modern greek is the evolution of ancient Greek so it would be extremely difficult to use another pronunciation for educational purpose. However I believe that this "cuts" the most important functional characteristic of the ancient language: prosody. (I'm sorry for my bad English, I hope it is understandable what I say)
I'm definitely saving this video. Your system makes the sound changes appear natural, and explains the evolution into modern Greek really well, not as implausible as some other systems. It brings a whole new dimension of understanding to my learning of modern Greek to the table. Thank you for broadening my understanding of the sound evolution of this beautiful language.
Thank you so much! 😃 Look for videos on my other channel ScorpioMartianus where I demonstrate Lucian Pronunciation. I’m not perfectly consistent at it yet in these recordings, but you may find them useful: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GFjDEJtpRUCZsoPitPfcaAvPtsrG1ilP www.patreon.com/posts/athenaze-audio-36186862 www.patreon.com/posts/41402787
TH-cam algorithm has led me to this video for some reason... I’m Korean and I’ve never had anything to do with Greek, but I must say that Im thoroughly enjoying this content
Wow, this is great and you guys are awesome! 22:53 I remember watching a video of an Anglo professor disdainfully referring to Modern Greeks who butcher "classical" pronunciation, and recommended students who had their pronunciation criticized by Greeks to simply say that they use the "Erasmian" pronunciation. "Interesting,!", I thought. I really wanted to learn this restored Classical pronunciation... until I heard him speak. The thickest Gringo accent you could think of! You couldn't even make a parody of that. OF COURSE Italians and Greeks would stare in horror and politely tell them no thanks. I can't understand the nerve and lack of self-awareness required to condescend native Greeks AND present yourself as a model of correct pronunciation while sounding like Slavoj Zizek speaking English. I won't link to the video, but I'm sure we've all encountered such people. In the end I decided to learn Modern Greek to the highest possible level: trying to absorb their prosody, rhythm, intonation, body language... (not that alien to me as a native Spanish speaker) and then move chronologically back, making incremental adjustments (Maybe even using materials intended for native Greek speakers?). I really like the pronunciation proposed in this video as it is basically Modern Greek, with a few tweaks to the vowels plus the addition of bilabial fricatives.
"...while sounding like Slavoj Zizek speaking English..." You killed me with that!!! LOLOLOLOLOL. Yes, I absolutely agree with what you said! As a native Greek, I am infuriated with the condescension and total lack of self-awareness by these people.
Σας συγχαίρω κύριοι που διδάσκετε γνώσεις τις οποίες ακόμα και πολύ νέοι Έλληνες, δυστυχώς, δεν διδαχτήκαμε. Thank you so much for your work, things make a little bit more sense now.
As a person who regularly pronounces Koine Greek words for people, I appreciate the attention to detail here. I think I will be altering how I pronounce them, since I'm aiming for 1st century CE, and this transitional Lucian form hits that note perfectly. I don't actually know what form of Koine pronunciation I originally learned, since I worked hard at mimicking the sounds from my professor, rather than looking it up in IPA or inquiring further. Now you've got me curious!
Πολύ καλή προσέγγιση, μπράβο σας ! Όσο για την ερασμιακή προφορά, έχετε δίκαιο, είναι ότι πιο ξένο στο γλωσσικό ένστικτο του φυσικού ομιλητή των ελληνικών.
user-wobry7uk8n Why the Deuce do modern Greeks chan ge the pronunciation of BRAVO into μπράβο ??? ??? Brigitte Bardot into μπριγιτ μπάρδω ? This is hilarious ! And we should pronounce classic greek following modern greek degeneration ?
As a classicist with a passing interest in linguistics, thank you for explaining all of the pronunciations and tongue positions. You truly make it really easy to replicate/understand for this English speaker. Being able to read or understand IPA is one thing, but in practice replicating it is much harder...
I am amazed! I have recently discovered your channel. I ve studied archaeology and I am teaching ancient Greek and Latin in public greek schools. It's really interesting how the lucian pronounciation just makes sense for native speakers of modern greek.
I studied under Dr. Buth in Jerusalem in 2017 (9 month Hebrew immersion intensive). He is without a doubt the most brilliant man I have ever met, he speaks ~15 languages (including Koine Greek) and seemed to know everything about everything. That being said, I find this discussion of different methods of pronunciation of ancient Greek absolutely fascinating. I don't know NEARLY enough Greek to be able to make an informed decision of which system I think is best, but on a purely subjective level I think your system sounds nicer on the ears. I think I will make the switch!
Hi Nathan! Thanks for the kind compliment! I *love* Dr. Buth's work (he is also an excellent speaker), and I regret proposing an alternate Koine pronunciation since his scheme was very thoroughly thought out. It's probable that both Buth's and our systems were synchronic, and diatopic in nature. If people like Buth's Late Koine Pronunciation, they should use it! If they were to make a couple historical modifications to it, I would include the palatalization of γ χ κ before front vowels, and geminated consonants (as in Cypriot Greek). And if you add in the long/short vowel distinctions, you get access to all the poetry and music in the same pronunciation. If you did that, I would still call it a highly evolved variant of Lucian Pronunciation. Personally, I love the sound of the οι /y/and αι /ε/ per Buth's system.
polýMATHY I hope you get to meet Dr Buth some day if you haven’t already. I think you would get on like a house on fire. He has been fighting for teaching classical languages as living languages (and against the tyranny of the grammar-translation method) for decades.
Ὦ βέλτιστε ῥῆτορ! 😊Ἡμᾶς γὰρ ἀξίους οὐκ οἰόμεθα τοῦ ἐπαίνου σου, σοὶ δὲ χάριν πολὺν ἔχομεν. I regret we did not mention your work specifically in the video. My apologies! We hope that the link we provided to your channel in the description will at least help to bring more people (especially Ἕλληνες! 🇬🇷) to the idea of native Greeks exploring historical pronunciations. Podium-Arts is vital to our work outside of Greece. Πάλιν, ὦ ἄριστε Ἰωάννη, χάριτάς σοι ἴσμεν.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Good start. I commented already on your other video.. I forgot to mention that there isn't just a connection with french, but also with German. There are many words such as υπέρ (über), γάρ (gar) and so on that can help you getting closer. Another hint I could give you would be ήτα pronounced high like in the first syllabus of German verbs such as: lesen, gehen, sehen etc. Maybe it sounds a bit far-fetched in the start but all those sounds create a special vibration when pronounced that affects the human energetic field (aura).. Modern Greek doesn't have those ancient sounds anymore, just french and German is still carrying this kind of cultivation. Those sounds are blocking the animal side of human nature hence people tend to become more intellectual...
Thank you for this video, it was quite informative! As my primary interest in Ancient Greek is studying comparative Indo-European linguistics, I feel like the archaic variant is best suited for my uses. I appreciate that you created different models for different time periods and use cases.
Thank you SO MUCH for this! I love studying Koine Greek, but I simply could never, EVER abide with Erasmian pronunciation (i.e. "haw law-gaws" for ὁ λόγος just always stuck in my throat). Instead, I studied modern Greek pronunciation and superimposed that system onto my Koine Greek. I really like having this soundly researched, transitional system that you have presented here, as well as your encouragement to acknowledge modern Greek as a guide--it's a great middle-of-the-road approach. I'm planning to adopt it fully for Koine Greek.
@@hansmahr8627 the question then is, how are you pronouncing the letter o in ho logos. Is it a long o sound as in no or a short o sound as in hot. Erasmian pronunciation distinguished between omicron and omega by having omicron sound like a short English o sound... which is why "ho logos" sounds like Hah lah-gahs (as closely as I can write it).
@@TroyLFullerton Well it's difficult to use English vowels to describe the vowels of other languages because English vowels are actually often diphthongs or glides and not pure monophthongs. The o in no for example is not a pure o. It's also not the o in hot. The o in logos is a short [o], a close-mid back rounded vowel like in Italian como or German oder that (at least as far as I know) isn't used in British or American English.
Amazing video, I was searching after a good video about ancient greek pronunciation for a long time and I think I couldn't have found a better one. Keep up the good work, by far the best channel on TH-cam about latin and ancient greek to me!
I can respect the desire to use a more evolved pronunciation to receive ancient texts. It has the facility of continuity. As a Chinese person I know that in every context outside of linguistics, modern Chinese is used to receive ancient texts even if they sound nothing similar like what we understand Old or Middle Chinese sounded like. Old Chinese reflects a phonetic system that existed from roughly the same period as Mycenaean to Roman Koine
Thank you so much for this, I've been struggling to find an appropriate Koine pronunciation since all of my textbooks use completely different standards!
Hahaha. Yeah, and like I said, use Erasmian if you want! No problem there. As long as people don't confuse it with an "historical" pronunciation anymore than Modern Greek pronunciation applied to Ancient Greek. Nothing wrong with it.
I love this pronunciation system. I started learning Ancient Greek using the Modern Greek pronunciation, but later on I changed the vowel phones η, υ, and οι to /e:/, /y/, and /øy/ and kept the Modern Greek qualities of all the other vowels, diphthongs and digraphs.
I like this pronunciation system. It doesn't feeling like I'm hitting myself in the back of the head with a cane (not too much anyway). I hadn't really thought about the way σ is pronounced in modern Greek, either; I've done it automatically. And the transaction from the archaic φ/θ/χ to the modern makes much more sense now! I must have read it in Horrocks' book and not understood it.
Carla Hurt here, a Latin teacher from Australia. I love your pronunciation and from about a year ago I chose to undergo the slow but very rewarding process of changing my Greek pronunciation from academic Erasmian to an Archaic Variant of Lucian Pronunciation (I went with aspirated consonants because... I like the archaic sound). I'm still partway through this journey, making my first draft of an audiobook project, pronouncing all of the book of Matthew in AD50 Learned Koine. I've changed a lot about my pronunciation in this time, sometimes misreading the IPA and not realising I had been learning the wrong phoneme until months later, ahaha. But it has been very worth it and I have very much enjoyed the aesthetic exercise of paying close attention to things like phonemic vowel length and adding in a pitch accent. Recently I'd been meaning to find your unlisted video on pitch accents again, so I could practice and fix some of my vices that seem to creep in gradually like weeds if I'm not checking myself with good spoken examples. It seems to have disappeared from Google searches - which feels such a loss. Even if we might not have arrived at a perfect grasp of pitch accent, that video was the most convincing and practical audio example of pitch accent I have ever found on the internet. I'd be tempted to make my own imperfect version of a "tips for saying pitch accents" video even just so that something like it exists again, though I do not claim authority in this area, just an interest in the practical application.
Perhaps you would be interested to know that in modern cypriot there's a remnant of περισπωμένη. For example: ἐδῶ (from ancient ὧδε) has a very distinct intonation, today! However, ἐγώ may be similarly intoned in this dilect. Even though such word originally had ὀξεῖα, instead...
Late to the party but a very interesting approach! From a Greek perspective, I like how it acts like a bridge between Classical and before and modern pronunciation (which it really was come to think of it) with science to back up the choices. Will probably make my Portokalos compatriots as well as Erasmian diehards livid which is a big plus! Reminds me though of my husband's complaints when he tried to learn modern Greek and particularly the one about turning honest to goodness vowels in "αυ/ευ" into consonants (though with his native language being English I'd say "the nerve"). He also posited, when I tried to explain how the word Αχαιοί probably sounded through the ages, that no, that was never a true name for people. It's just that someone inevitably would try to say the actual name but after "A" someone starting choking them.
I like your system a lot. There is one thing that might be relevant about the treatment of βήτα (and perhaps δέλτα) after a pause or after a nasal. Just as you recommend that spiritus asper be sounded only sentence initially or after a pause, it might be appropriate to pronounce βήτα as a stop in the same phonological environments. It is believed that βήτα became a fricative first between vowels and later in other environments. So βήτα can be a voiced bilabial fricative [β] everywhere except after a pause or after [m] where it should be pronounced as a voiced bilabial stop [b], much as the letters b/v are pronounced [b] after a pause and [β] between vowels in Spanish. You are probably aware that in modern Greek, β,δ are often still pronounced as stops after [m], [n] (you have already addressed that γάμμα is a stop after [ŋ]) Consider for example the modern Greek words κουμπί and άντρας which continue the Ancient Greek words κομβίον and ἄνδρα and are pronounced with a stop after each nasal. So perhaps βιβλίον could be pronounced [biβlion] after a pause and συμβέβληκας could be [symbeβleːkas]. What do you think?
Hi there! I'm Raph from the video haha. So first, yes, after a nasal stops should be retained as in MG, I guess we just neglected to mention this lol. Secondly, this is a really good point, and we considered prescribing it as you say, where basically it works exactly as in modern Spanish. However, the voiced stops start becoming fricatives significantly earlier than the voiceless aspirates, so we think that by this period a full transition to fricatives is not implausible, and since part of our goal is to prescribe something with the highest likelihood of pleasing the Greeks, we chose to ignore potential allophony. Plus, unless you're a Spanish speaker or a speaker of another language with this sort of allophonic lenition, it's a bit more work to learn than just using fricatives all the time. That said, we don't expect people to adopt this system without some modifications, and the one you propose is perfectly valid for those who prefer it! :-)
Yup! Raph and I decided to cut out the mention of -ν + β- = /mb/ (for example) for the sake of keeping the video a bit shorter, since this is consistent with Greek of all periods. And just as Raph said, we do think that the Spanish approach to the voiced stops (instead of fricatives) is a prefectly reasonable pronunciation! He and I are both Spanish speakers so we find this appealing aesthetically too. But we also love Modern Greek and enoy the full-fricative version. If you like the Spanish-style, go for it!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Hi, I have a few questions In coptic words loaned into greek, a coptic omega often becomes υ, like in the months Ϩαθωρ, Τωβι, Παωνι which become Ἁθύρ, Τυβί, Παϋνί. How is that explained? (a sound change from /o/ to /y/ seems quite far) My other question is summed up here: www.reddit.com/r/Koine/comments/h9yx43/vowel_mergers_in_koine_transcriptions/ (I notice I shouldn't have used "koine era" for all since part of these transcriptions happened in byzantine era.)
Cantonese share some sound inventory with Ancient Greek. But it is also very different. A cantonese person who also speaks Japanese, Italian or Spanish will be better equipped. Better yet if they can also speak other European languages like Latvian and Finnish, due to the pitch accent in the former and the vowel/consonant length distinctions in both.
maybe not many people watch it but plz dont be sicouraged your hard word is super cool. i dont watch all of your videos but i find super intresting the ones i watch and am bad at expressing thoughts in english so just take awat that your awesome :) .
@@polyMATHY_Luke greek :) and i find more easy to pronounce slavic languages than saying οι as ωι and αι ας ααι.. xd. But im from epirus and just like my grandma i pronounce some words heavier i think
@@johnnyroyal6404 On the positive, us greek nerds here love a strong greek accent, so your best attempt is english at least sounds beautiful, unlike a greek which learns a perfect english accent :-)
Defintely a nice proposal, since it is a balance between the Classical and Modern -old and new-. By the way, I've read your PDF document (which is fascinating, since you're basically telling us the phonological history of Greek) and I think you should have added on page 14 "QUANTITY & QUALITY" that consonant gemination is still a feature of today's Cypriot Greek dialect (in order to encourage its use).
20:07 Aspirate /h/ As Thais, it's easy for us to distinguish. Your pronunciation is on point. Similar to Thai letter ข, ถ, ผ, respectively. The thing I've had to do with Greek is watching a documentary about Greek in many areas from philosophy to architecture but not language - in particular. Anyway, I really enjoy your vids till the end.
While learning Ancient Greek I tended to try to keep the normal d and g sounds and also ph and th. The biggest problem for me is when they are followed by a consonant, it's very hard to make the aspiration easy to hear and to pronounce. Examples: aphlektos, anthropon, or even aphthonos. So that's why in the end now I think that a more modernized pronunciation is more "manageable".
I've been shopping around Ancient Greek pronunciation systems before diving in to learning Greek and glad I came across your system. How I wish it was as simple as the two choices commonly used with Latin! I really want to use a spoken, living language approach to learning and at first planned on trying to imitate Ioannis Stratakis' Attic pronunciation; however you've raised some excellent points that have me reconsidering. Could you compare this system to those used by the Polis Institute as well as Accademia Vivarium Novum? I'm particularly curious how those systems handle vowel length and how mutually intelligible they are. Thank you Luke and Raphael for all your work on this!!
Thanks so much for your comment! I think you’ll really like Lucian Pronunciation. I recommend you read this essay of mine where I go into detail about all of this expert-experimenter-2558.ck.page/abae340f49 Polis and Vivarium Novum just use Erasmian pronunciation, and don’t include phonemic vowel length, the most essential feature - Erasmian does not represent an historical reconstruction, but masquerades as being one. Enjoy reading! Let me know if you have further questions.
According to Polis Institutes book "Speaking Greek as a living language" page IV "We [Polis] followed the pronunciation that belonged to the cultural elite at the beginning of the koine period. . .Why? The decisive factor was pedagogical. In the first century Greek pronunciation had become far removed from the spelling, a phonetic evolution that adds complexity to a language already reputed to be challenging to learn." Polis refers to this pronunciation as "early high koine".
As far as I know africate consonants, namely pφ, tθ and maybe kχ exist in some Dodecanesean dialects (especially Rhodes, Karpathos and Kasos). And they co-exist with bilabial f and v sounds. Also these people use all longs by positions in their speech (I mean geminated consonants and they generally have the tendency to pause in double consonants like ξ, ψ, and even Ζ or in the ones that are formed between different words and also in consonantal clusters). Probably, in the Docanese, the most conservative version of Greek phonology is used (especially by the older people). My plan is to learn to speak Ancient Greek (not just translate) and I find their speech helpful input towards that goal :)
Well that settles it, your recommended pronunciation guide is right for me. I am choosing to expand from Latin to ancient Greek to develop a better affinity for all Proto Indo European languages.
Ah so you are the ScorpioMartianus guy! Fantastic! Great job guys! I will be most likely using the more into archaic verchion of lucian pronounciation and this is great you have developed such flexible, facts and great analysis based system!
7:00 I'm a native Cypriot Greek speaker and I think double stops (ττ, ππ, κκ ) are pronounce as aspirates ( /tʰ/ /pʰ/ /kʰ/) in Cypriot Greek . Or at least that's how I perceive them .
It's true that in Cypriot they are both aspirated and Geminated. This prooobably wasn't already the case in Koine (i.e. they were probably just geminated).
@@andreasi8741 This is the one I've read, but you might be able to find more comprehensive ones: web.archive.org/web/20160123141552/www.kent.ac.uk/secl/ell/staff/amalia-arvaniti/docs/ArvanitiCY.pdf
Oh great! Definitely read my essay too secureservercdn.net/166.62.114.250/h13.ace.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/ancient_greek_pronunciation_guide_ranieri_2021.pdf
@@polyMATHY_Luke Ok. Btw, whatever you're doing with Latin that's great man for all the Latin learners. I'm learning French and Sanskrit (seriously) and dabbling in Latin. 😄😄
This looks familiar to a koine Greek student. Can you provide a translation? I can translate some parts, but some seem to not make sense. Here's my attempt: Many are unwise... The true pronunciation differs a little to him who really reads the things of old (or should ὄντως be placed here?) Indeed it is, for we do not ought to pay attention how to pronounce, when discussing with other men/people, but [to pay attention] for the reason why [the pronunciation is such]. Where did I go wrong? Anyone else who can offer some help, is much appreciated!
Fascinating. I'm here because of a deep frustration with the typical modern British English pronunciation of Greek names and words, but also because I'm trying to understand the sound changes in the development of Celtic languages - such as the reasons for the P / Q split. I think the sound changes in ancient Greek give some valuable insight into this. Aside from figuring out how τέτταρες becomes pedwar in Welsh and quatre in French, my big question is - why?
The PIE sound was [kʷ], which Latin retaind as “quattuor,” “quantus” and Greek makes this /t/ or /p/ τέτταρες, πόσος. Welsh did a similar thing. Changing the velar sound into /p/ also occurs in Romanian: opt < octō
@@polyMATHY_Luke yes indeed, although I can't help feeling we shouldn't use realis mood when talking about proto languages. Palatization and velarization are much easier to understand than this radical shift in place of articulation, which can be found in diatopical neighbours such as Welsh / Irish and Umbrian / Latin
I think the answer I'm looking for is to do with phonotactics. Initial consonant mutation is a feature of Celtic languages - one theory is that it may be caused by participles in older forms, which have since been dropped. There may also be issues of perceived cacophony avoidance or simply "doing things differently" in order to differentiate one language from its neighbours - like Brazilian Portuguese consistently using the plural form of the 2nd person and European Portuguese consistently using the singular. I don't know if we will ever have a definitive answer :D
A friend just asked me about how we know what pronunciation was used in “Ancient Greek”. I started having PTSD over the months (!) that I spent trying to get the “right” pronunciation. I set him on to Lucian pronunciation to get him studying Ancient Greek rather than chasing the Wil ‘o the Wisp that several teachers are trying to nail down as the exact historically correct AG pronunciation. But for the love of all that’s holy, whatever your pronunciation, SPEAK WITH A GREEK ACCENT!!!
I had seven (!) years of Latin and two years of Greek in secondary school, and I remember very little of it. Little did I know that I ended up becoming a descriptive linguist working on Ryukyuan languages. I discovered your channel a month ago, and you've convinced me to start relearning Latin and Greek. I managed to obtain Orbergs book for Latin, but I was wondering if there's any textbook you can recommend for Greek. The books by Polis look promising, but so does Athenaze... Can you recommend any of those? Keep up the good work, Luke! You're eloquence is inspiring!
@@dorianphilotheates3769 Κάλλιστα! Ἥδομαι γάρ σε γιγνώσκειν, ὦ φίλε Δωριᾱνέ. Ἆρα ἀληθῶς ἡ ἐμή Λουκιᾱνὴ ὀνομαζομένη Προφορᾱ́ σοι ἀρέσκει; 😃 Χάριν παραδίγματος, ἰδοῦ τοῦτο τὸ βιβλίον ὃ τῇ φωγνῇ μου ἀνέγνων· drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GFjDEJtpRUCZsoPitPfcaAvPtsrG1ilP In my experience, few Greeks tolerate recitations of Ancient Greek in any voice other than those from Greece itself. Yet I am hopeful to make Lucian Pronunciation appealing to the Greek ear. I will be very grateful to have your opinion on my work so far. 😊 Χάριν σοι οἶδα! 🇬🇷
Θα ήθελα να σας ευχαριστήσω γι'αυτό το βίντεο γιατί με βοήθησε πολύ να συνεχίσω τις αρχαιοελληνικές σπουδές μου. Αποφάσισα πέρυσι να μαθαίνω αρχαία ελληνικά γιατί μου φαίνονταν πολύ ενδιαφέροντα, αλλά μόνο ήξερα την αττική προφορά που μου φαινόταν πάντα πολύ παράξενη, ειδικά η προφορά των φωνηέντων «η» και «ω», που πάντα ήθελα να προφέρω σαν [eː] και [oː]. Σκεφτόμουν όμως ότι πρέπει να μάθω απόλυτα σωστή αττική προφορά για να μιλάω αρχαία ελληνικά. Ήταν ανόητη ιδέα, αλλά ήταν λόγω αυτής που δεν έμαθα πολύ, και την πρώτη φορά που βρήκα το βίντεο σας, δεν ήθελα να δοκιμάσω τη Λουκιανή προφορά. Αργότερα παρέλαβα μια ευκαιρία από το πανεπιστήμιό μου να σπουδάσω αρχαίο ελληνικό πολιτισμό και νέα ελληνικά στην Ελλάδα για την άνοιξη, οπότε άρχισα να μαθαίνω νέα ελληνικά αντί για τα αρχαία πριν ταξιδέψω. Τώρα ήθελα να συνεχίσω να μαθαίνω αρχαία ελληνικά, αλλά έγινε πολύ δύσκολο να επιστρέψω στην αττική προφορά μετά από πέρασα 3 μήνες χρησιμοποιώντας νέα ελληνική προφορά. Βρήκα πάλι αυτό το βίντεο και τώρα μου φαίνεται υπέροχο. Τις περασμένες εβδομάδες δοκίμασα την προφορά σε τυχαία μέρη που βρίσκω αρχαία ελληνικά κείμενα και είναι πολύ εύκολο να προφέρω. Το μονάδικο παράξενο πράγμα αυτής της προφοράς είναι η προφορά της λέξης «και» σαν [cae̯], γιατί το μυαλό μου θέλει να την προφέρω σαν [ce] (νέα) ή [kai] (αττική), αλλά είναι ακόμα καλό για μένα. Αποφάσισα να χρησιμοποιώ αυτήν την προφορά στις σπουδές μου αρχαίων ελληνικών, και κάνω όρεξη να μαθαίνω πάλι. Σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ! Καλή συνέχεια! -από έναν φιλόγλωσσο από την Αμερική
Thank you for making this accessible. I find your work very interesting. Any thoughts on insights that might be gleaned from Romeyka (Pontic Greek) pronunciation in relation to your Lucian Pronunciation?
Hi Karl. Pontic is really fascinating! It’s mostly derived from Byzantine Greek so it represents many aspects of Greek about a millennium after where I put Lucian Pronunciation
OK- as someone who’s finally pulled out the ancient greek textbooks I bought two years ago at a used bookstore (thanks, quarantine!), I really really appreciate your videos on greek so far and they’ve helped answer one or two questions I’ve had diving into the first couple pages even. Especially with the distinctions between different eras of X pronunciation- while not fluent I’ve got a long history with russian so I was very guilty of wondering if, and assuming, it was close to that russian in-between pronunciation based off the explanation given in my text, so I’m very grateful for that to be settled. I know your channel is mostly Latin, but would you consider doing a video going through the sounds of Classical Greek as a whole? I originally found your channel looking for just that and instead found all the Discourse about era pronunciations- which is fine!!! It’s been really fascinating! 😂 Or do you have any classical greek pronunciation videos here on yt you feel are great and would recommend? Because that’s really feeling like a huge roadblock right now. If not either way that’s 110% fine. 😁 Thanks again for all the work and thought you’ve put into these videos. You’ve managed to do something extremely difficult- make complex ideas much simpler to understand. And that’s awesome.
I am going to make videos just like you ask, Phoenix! 😃All part of the plan. And I have quite a few on my Latin/Ancient Greek channel ScorpioMartianus: th-cam.com/video/kaQt4Ormzbs/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/play/PLU1WuLg45SixrxviQiHOlkdkT-XPvyrgv.html
polýMATHY In a world where I just found out I’ll continue to be stuck in corona lockdown until freaking June, your reply makes me so happy. Thanks man, and I’ll def check out the links!!
I don't know much about any Greek, so I was surprised to hear that Greek has these same consonants as Irish! Broad and slender for "g" and "c" and "ch" are exactly like Irish. However it is strange to me that any language can have these but still they don't have two different "L" sounds.
What a beautiful convention, plus an excellent illustration of how to pronounce words not only how to transcribe them. Similar conventions often lack a spoken illustration. Kudos to both of you! A question: What about using a labiodental approximant [ʋ] in the two false diphthongs αυ, ευ instead of a bilabial rounded fricative [βʷ ~ ɸʷ]? In other words, what about αυ [aʋ] and ευ [e̞ʋ]. The sound [ʋ] (often an allophone of /v/) and the change [w] > [ʋ] (> [v]) are well attested cross-linguistically. The sound [βʷ ~ ɸʷ] is probably closer to [w], while [ʋ] (which is basically [v̞]) is probably closer to [v ~ f]. Using [ʋ] would have a funny effect of introducing another IPA symbol looking very like a Greek letter. It seems to me that the sound [βʷ ~ ɸʷ] goes along well with more conservative pronunciations of affricates [kx, tθ, pɸ] and is in the same category of sound that may be difficult more to be produced and/or understood by speakers of (Western) European languages. The sound [ʋ] goes better with a more progressive change to [x, θ, ɸ] and may be easier to be produced by speakers of (Western) European. It is attested as a allophone of /r/ in some variates of English, a phoneme or an allophone of /v/ in other Germanic languages (Dutch, Norwegian, Danish, and Southern German) and allophone of /v/ in Slavic languages (Slovak, Slovene, Ukrainian). Happy to hear your opinion!
Oh sick. In learning (hardly) the arabic abjad I had the intuition that the letters are almost cartoon shapes of how to pronounce the sound. This subsequently has helped me symbolically remember and sound through a problem. The aspirated occulusives also follow the similar pattern and then sound of the arabic letters that sound so foreign to the west
As French, i have mostly all the phonems. But it is still difficult to have the correct accentuation on words and long vowels. I have the same problems with latin. 😅 Exception for the consonants, they are very strange.
😂 I'm laughing because both A) I'm self-aware enough to think "who the hell is this for?" and B) I actually needed this and have had so many of these concerns. My wife is rolling her eyes at my excitement.
Why would anyone want to ignore the importance of phonemic vowel length and geminated consonants? That wouldn’t get you anywhere in certain _modern_ languages… namely Japanese. It’s the difference between a tourist mangling a phrasebook and a competent speaker.
It’s interesting that υ has survived with this pronunciation in some villages in Attica. My grandma pronounces it that way but only in some words such as «σκύλος» (dog) when she is speaking in the accent of her village and my uncle was always joking that it was just her village being weird. Somehow it didn’t occur to me earlier that they have kept the ancient pronunciation. Also you did a great job and it sounds completely normal to a native speaker, unlike Erasmian that sounds disgusting.
Yes!!! I have had issues with the υ sound and have been trying for years to find a surviving example from accents all over Greece and beyondto provide some insight, and it was right there at my home in Attica. Family origins were from outside Attica but I have heard that υ so many times and never registered (στον ουρανό το γύρευα στη γη το βρήκα!) Unbelievable! I just commented how a linguistic study of native accents and dialects should be undertaken to find surviving remnants of ancient sounds and get native speakers to perform the reconstructions. My dad is from the region of Olympia in Peloponnesus and when we were kids he used to answer the phone with ναι that he pronounced similar to ney or nay. Thanks for the observation!
What do you think about Philemon Zachariou's theory and his book "Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek: Historical Pronunciation versus Erasmian"? Do you know him? Have you read it?
7:05 WOOOOOO Cypriot Greek mentioned Although, if you wanna say it in Cypriot Greek, the double sounds are way harsher Imagine mushing together as many t's or as p's as you can And put some spit to it, much like the English t or p Makes me thing that you are talking about two very different geminated consonants, because ours today are way harsher, like the English t, instead of what I think you were going for which was just holding the sound with a pause Also this is VERY INTERESTING I never realised we replaced our own sounds of β and φ (the Main Prescribed Version), and I've been sitting here for a while trying the sounds and it is true but it always comes naturally to say the older sounds, but it's still interesting to see how the Greek sounds have changed, and they became more cut-out and clear and those weird middle sounds getting removed an becoming more extreme in pronounciation
When working where Greek was commonly spoken, I definitely heard pitch, which was slightly different from that found in the Jugoslav group. (Pitch and Length)
Thank you so much for this very informative video! I am a modern Greek speaker and this pronounciation does sound very friendly, but in a way also feels correct (while the modern does not- after all, if we have 5 different ways to write the same i sound, there must be a reason!) I am by no means a specialist, but there is a word that keeps me confused as to the lasting of the pronunciation of δασεία. Namely, the word αρέσω (to like) which used to have an aspiration, was borrowed into Bulgarian as "haresvam". Yet, I know no other greek words that carried their δασεία into the slavic languages. Bulgarians came in contact to Greek speakers somewhere in the late 7th century, if I am not mistaken. So what was happening with the δασεία?
What is your opinion on the Reuchlinian pronunciation of Ancient Greek? I think this one is based on how Greek was pronounced by the end of Byzantine empire.
@@polyMATHY_Luke i mean by the end of the byzantine empire greek was probably pronounced much like modern greek bar a few things (mb nd ng rather than b d g)
Συγχαρητήρια!!!! Excellent work!!! I wachted most of your videos. Υπάρχουν αρκετοί Έλληνες που δεν γνωρίζουν ότι η αρχαία ελληνική γλώσσα είχε άλλη προφορά απο την μοντέρνα ελληνική. Bravo Bravo for your work!!! Maybe you could make also a video reading some of sofokles or euripides or aisxilos tragedies. It would be very very very interesting having also some details about ancient Greece theater and the way it used to be played.
Luke, it would be interesting to hear you address the relationship between Latin and Greek. We know that Greek lit. was much beloved by Roman people of letters, but it begs the question - are these all loan words from Greek, or did many of these words descend from proto Latin...centuries and centuries of enriching ones language by trolling Greek texts...but to this extent? and there is VERY little coherent writing on the subject. For the most part, it is mostly treated by paleo linguists comparing their relationships to IE. All i know is that as a modern Greek speaker with some exposure to ancient Greek, it really seems like every fifth word is familiar to me! It truly would make a great segment...and thank you again for giving space to the successor spoken languages of Greek and Latin!
Great work! As a greek though I'd like to point out one thing. That ph thing that sounds like p+h i think it is not correct. You see in angient greek for a very long time the letter H was used to signal a lower in voice that coincides many times with a brief exhalation that produces the H sound. If you pay close attention, p already has that ability let's say in "παίδες". That usage is cofirmed in words written that way such as "ΗΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ". In addition in attic greek there was one f that was used so apparently they didn't have the need for two f. So what must be happening with ph is this. If you say "φυτό" that f is higher and if you say "φόβος" the f sounds lower (something between an f and the sound you make blowing a candle). Moreover in greece in general people depending on the alphabet they were using (which you know was different from area to area) instead of writting f they wrote ph. That was because they were borrowing the older h usage, and since p v f were in the same category with the loudest being p and most quiet being f they wrote it as p+h. Besides how could you write a letter without having already one to represent the sound you try to discribe in your alphabet and without inventing a new one? So maybe the romans knowing that in greek both f and ph were used depending on the area, thay might have copied it letter by letter to distinguish the lighter f from the lower ph depending on the word that Φ was used.
a lot of italic languages that borrowed the greek alphabet used not Φ, but 8 (a special letter) or FH to note the sound /f/. letters inspired by Ф didn't start being used for f until pretty late down the line (starting with gothic and later cyrillic, but notably not coptic, georgian or armenian, which were created earlier. coptic even had its own letter for /f/ and used Φ for /p/). Φ is also systematically used for hebrew or phoenician or aramaic Pe, even in positions where it wasn't becoming /f/ also I'm not sure how you are classifying sounds by 'loudness'? especially as in terms of volume, /f/ is louder than /p/ given the later is a plosive
@@wordart_guian I'm not sure how it is called in English so I'm translating from greek to English directly. In grammar we learn that there are 3 types of consonants. Psila means those that sound louder and sharper for example P, and dasea are those that sound deeper and less than the others for example f. There are also the mesa literally meaning "in the middle" that sound louder that the dasea and deeper that psila for example V. Now f depending on the following letter can sound deferently. For example if you say "filo" (leaf) that f sounds sharper than "fotia" (fire). That distinction between those f where made in roman times as far as i understand it and as people who study ancient greek phonology have told me that they believe. Phobos and phoenix where written with ph because that f was deeper than filos (friend) for example. The use of ph instead of f was copied from the ancients greek alphabets that didn't use the letter f but instead used ph to describe the sound. The way of thinking behind that combination is that you are using p to show that that sound is plosive and you pick p because it's the loudest (psilo). Then you complement it with the letter H having its original use (that of showing where your Voice should deepen). So to sum up, from p you know the sound is plosive, p is psilo so you add the H to make it dasi. And that's how you make f. My English is not the best I'm trying to.explain something as best as i can without knowing the proper terms. If i confuse you I'm really sorry 😁
@@panagiotispagonis6856 don't worry about your english, you're doing great. phonetic descriptions in antiquity were shoddy at best though, psilo and dasea (terms first used in antiquity) can be interpreted however you want. modern terminology (untainted by language change) would be: voiceless plosives: π τ κ at all times voiced plosives: romance b/d/g, reconstructed classical greek β δ γ aspirated plosives: icelandic/pinyin p t k, reconstructed classical/koine greek φ θ χ (if the 3 series were grouped in antiquity, it's because they were all stops, they're described as not being able to be pronounced without a supporting vowel, which describes stops)) voiceless affricates: reconstructed koine greek φ θ χ = modern greek πφ τθ κχ, as well as τσ. voiceless fricatives: modern φ θ χ σ voiced fricatives: koine & modern β δ γ ζ the difference between filo and fotia as you describe it, is called palatalization (affection of a consonant by a front vowel) [f] is not a plosive at all, it is a fricative. in english plosives include p t k b d g. fricatives include f th s sh h v z. affricates include ch and j. side note: on the other hand, θ was always transcribed as th in latin, always written as θ in greek, and always used to transcribe normal t from semitic languages (with τ being only used for emphatic t, including empathic fricative t as in arabic transcriptions. this fricative being modern arabic zza, it sounds closer to a modern greek δ but was always transcribed with τ)
(Help) Someone knows if the palatalization of "κ" before front vowels is optional in the main prescribed version? Because in the series Ancient Greek in Action and even in this video sometimes they pronounced "κ" with the /k/ sound.
Not quite. Getting an ear for the IPA symbol /c/ takes time. Depending on your experience level, you may hear it as /kj/ or /k/. But I assure you, it’s /c/
just wanted to add in cypriot greek, doubled consonants like pp, kk, tt are aspirated, like in these words άππαρος (apparos) = άλογος (alogos) = horse κύκκος (jykkos) = κύκκος (kykos) = kykkos, a monastery in pafos * γκάττος (gattos) = γάτος (gatos) = cat * sometimes i also hear γάττος, but that is not important this is what i know from limassol. maybe its different in lefkosia or pafos
Thank you guys so much for your work! I still use much if not all of your convention for my own interaction with Koine. Have you considered doing anything similar with Classical Greek? Also, I can't seem to find any guide like this for Latin on either of your channels; is there one that you would recommend? Keep up the good work! Valete!
4:00 - If σ and ζ are retracted, does the same apply to ξ and ψ? Are they pronounced as k + retracted s and p + retracted s, or just ks and ps in English? Also, Greek: An Intensive Course by Hardy Hansen and Gerald M. Quinn presents υι and ηυ as diphthongs that each sound like "we" and "e + u". Are they treated as diphthongs in the Lucian Pronunciation as well? If so, how are they pronounced? The guide on your websites says that υι is pronounced like long-υ, but how about ηυ? + Thank you for this video, I've recently began learning Ancient Greek and your channel has been really helpful.
Thanks for watching! Yes, any time /s/ appears it should be retracted, including ξ ψ, which sound identical in Modern Greek. Hardy and Quinn, like most other grammars, don’t take any serious interest in Ancient phonology, so those are just conventional approximations. See the Greek Pronunciation Chronology spreadsheet towards the bottom of the main page on LukeRanieri.com for how these sounds changed
Well when I started studying ancient Greek, the first thing I wanted was to be able to distinguish spelling by sound. But in class everyone pronounces, for example, ει and η the same, which makes difficulties for me. I accept that certain different spellings might have sounded the same at certain times, just as they do in English. But it seems likely that at some time they were distinguished. The pronunciation at that point is the one to which I would like a standard to approximate.
Great video!! I don't think erasmian is organically sound too. The use of n in Aeolian looks to go before θ and after γ,"hitting in the first and resounding in the second. I saw this in old norse a bit. Also Υ and U must be like Ü and u. I wonder about υπογεγραμμένη.
Thanks for the tips Luke and Rafael, excellent video, thanks for indicating the works of the Roman grammarian Luciano, both for Greek and Latin, one thing I confirmed with you, both vulgar Greek (Koine) and vulgar Latin (latinorio) are diastrical variants and diachronic with the ancient and classic standard, the mistake of many and taking the modern and vulgar standard as the right measure of a language, the beauty of the video of you 2 refutes that if there is modern speech and before it vulgar speech, and because both derive from the common basis of classical and ancient, evil and following ideologies and personal preferences. And to be honest brothers and friends I never saw Koine and Latin as a rule to Greek and Latin in their proper contexts. That always rang false in my perception. Medieval and modern Europe changed and greatly worsened our perception of Latin and Greek and in the classic and archaic authors we will discover the soul of these languages that are still relevant today for science, art and philosophy and even for the religion of many.
In Lucian Pronunciation, should the rules for the aspirate be applied to the rough breathing mark with smooth breathing marks being ignored, or should both smooth and rough breathing marks both be treated the same?
Hi there! I have a ton of audio where you can hear what I do at LukeRanieri.com/audio. In short, I treat the /h/ as I do in Latin: pronounced distinctly except in rapid speech between words. So, in short, pronounce it as /h/
In base a quali fonti storico-linguistiche avete scelto questo tipo di pronuncia (che è solo ipotetica rispetto a quella erasmiana, ugualmente ipotetica, in uso nelle scuole italiane)?
Thanks for sharing your research and putting this all together. You mention Ben Kantor as someone using Buth's pronunciation scheme, which is true but only part of the picture. To do justice to Ben, he's done a lot of his own work on a koine pronunciation and does adhere to, for example, a palatalized gamma before front vowels.
I deeply admire my friend and colleague in these matters, the great Ben Kantor! He and I speak with some regularity on these topics and his research is quite amazing. He does indeed palatalize γ, which is the prescribed Buth Koine pronunciation. The issue I have with Buth Koine is this palatalization is not generalized to χ and κ, which is necessary linguistically speaking. Just one of the three palatalizing doesn’t make sense. The only reason for Buth not prescribing this appears to be because palatalization isn’t easily understood to the English ear without some practice. If gamma sounds like English y then it’s easy enough. However, this is actually the very thing Buth rails against in the beginning of his wonderfully written paper which sets the groundwork for all this: he laments that Erasmian is much less historically motivated, than it is influenced by what is easier for the Western European language speaker to utter. And then he stops short of actually employing a truly historically extant phonetic system. Dr. Buth and I spoke about this at length in a public forum online. www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5159
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks for your reply; I see now you're plenty familiar with Ben's work, so thanks for humoring me. I've been grateful to begin with Buth's pronunciation scheme since I began studying greek a few years ago, but I have tweaked my pronunciation according to Ben's work as I've gone along. The reason I mentioned Ben palatalizing γ was that when I first started it wasn't clear to me from Buth's pronunciation paper or (more importantly) from the first BLC greek video course that any palatalization was occurring. Some other's describing the restored system mentioned it for gamma, but not universally, and it was quite confusing for me at the time. You may be interested to know that as I've continued to try to speak with fluency, I've found that palatalization seems to naturally occur for me for χ (I haven't yet been able to figure out what a palatal κ is). For example I would struggle to maintain the guttural nature (wrong label?) of χ in the phrase ἐκχεῖ ὕδωρ ἐκ τοῦ ποτηρίου. I did read with interest your discussion with Dr. Buth some time ago, and appreciated the opportunity for you both to debate some of the distinctions between your systems when (compared to e.g. Erasmian) there is so much in common. The first time I watched your video it struck me that I've developed close to your 'evolved' pronunciation scheme, which was a bit of fun. I've greatly benefited from the work you've made available, so please keep up the good work!
Oliver Crosato thanks! As for palatalization of kappa, I recommend listening to lots of Modern Greek. It’ll become very clear what the sound is after a short time.
![ทุกครั้งที่หลับตา (Lucid Dream) - AYLA's [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4i1OBAQyv58/mqdefault.jpg)
Lucian Pronunciation has been updated! See the Variants of Lucian Pronunciation video from 2023: th-cam.com/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/w-d-xo.html
While this first video from 2020 on Lucian Pronunciation still contains much useful information, particularly on one of the variants (Samosatene Lucian), the entire system has been updated to include a total of six variants, meaning six conventions for different states of the Greek language in the Koine Period; watch the new video here: th-cam.com/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/w-d-xo.html
Learn all SIX VARIANTS of LUCIAN PRONUNCIATION with my audiobook of Lucian's JUDGEMENT OF THE GODDESSES: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/lucians-judgement-of-the-goddesses-in-6-ancient-greek-pronunciations 🍎It includes a detailed pronunciation guide that resolves the questions raised by this video.
Download the free Ancient Greek Pronunciation Chart here: expert-experimenter-2558.ck.page/abae340f49
Get my trilingual audiobook The Gospel of John recited in Ancient Greek in Lucian Pronunciation, as well as in Latin and English: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/gospel-of-john-english-latin-greek-trilingual-audiobook-text
in which book of Lucian you found this knowledge?
There are elements of ancient pronunciation in the greek of some modern speakers, but it is not documented. I remember illiterate villagers in the 70s using έι for η, with a duration longer than ε but shorter than εε, λλ as two separated λ of equal duration, υ pronounced between ι and ου, κ pronnounced between κ and τσ, and so on, and even everyday words used in the ancient sense and not the modern one. Schools eliminated these differences.
My favorite Lucian story; two members of the Roman Empire were conversing.
Said one, I performed a function for the Emperor so well that in appreciation he made me a Roman!
His friend quipped, if he really wanted to reward you, he would have made you a Greek!
As a native Greek speaker, I am thrilled by this convention and believe it will help me learn ancient Greek and answer many doubts I have had for a long time about our modern Greek.
Θαυμαστό!
As a native Greek speaker I have learned to pronounce ancient greek using modern greek accent, yet I really appreciate your research on phonological history. I think your work is exceptional. Keep going.
Σε ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ! 🇬🇷 Θα ήθελα να ρωτήσω τη γνώμη σας επειδή είστε Έλληνες: τι πιστεύετε εάν αυτό το ηχητικό βιβλίο έχω ηχογραφήσει. Ακούγεται αρκετά κοντά σε μια ελληνική φωνή, παρόλο που είναι μια αρχαία προφορά; drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GFjDEJtpRUCZsoPitPfcaAvPtsrG1ilP
@@polyMATHY_Luke Ναι. Ακούγεται πάρα πολύ καλά. Ειδικά το σίγμα που συνήθως δυσκολεύει τους ξένους ομιλητές ακούγεται στο 95% των περιπτώσεων πολύ σωστό.
@@ΣτυλιανόςΛαγουρός ευχαριστώ πολύ! 😃
@@polyMATHY_Luke It is very pleasing to my modern greek ears, although the pronnounciation of the ou,ei,oi obviously sounds alien. I had to make an effort to understand the words that included these dipthongs.
@@polyMATHY_Luke ναι, το γ και το σ ειδικά, που συχνά δυσκολεύουν τους ξένους, ακούγονται εξαιρετικά.
This sounds very good to my native Greek ears . In my opinion this is the best approach to the real ancient pronunciation. Excellent work! It would be great if you also made a video about ancient Greek metrics in poetry.
Σε ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ! 😃 Είμαι πολύ χαρούμενος που σου αρέσει. 🇬🇷
Yes, I will definitely be making ones about Ancient Greek poetic meters in the future! Have you seen my videos on Latin meters? They are the same as the Greek meters (they learned from the Greeks, of course!)
@@polyMATHY_Luke Ευχαριστώ!
What pronunciation is normally taught in Greek schools? Here in the US, they usually teach the Erasmian pronunciation, and I hate it. :-(
@@JasonKatsanis we learn ancient greek by adapting the modern greek pronunciation to it. It is not perfect but it is better than erasmian for sure. I think that is the best for us Greek people, because modern greek is the evolution of ancient Greek so it would be extremely difficult to use another pronunciation for educational purpose. However I believe that this "cuts" the most important functional characteristic of the ancient language: prosody.
(I'm sorry for my bad English, I hope it is understandable what I say)
I concur. Besides, I'm all for any system that can eradicate the abomination that is Erasmian pronunciation.
I'm definitely saving this video. Your system makes the sound changes appear natural, and explains the evolution into modern Greek really well, not as implausible as some other systems. It brings a whole new dimension of understanding to my learning of modern Greek to the table. Thank you for broadening my understanding of the sound evolution of this beautiful language.
Thank you so much! 😃 Look for videos on my other channel ScorpioMartianus where I demonstrate Lucian Pronunciation. I’m not perfectly consistent at it yet in these recordings, but you may find them useful:
drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GFjDEJtpRUCZsoPitPfcaAvPtsrG1ilP
www.patreon.com/posts/athenaze-audio-36186862
www.patreon.com/posts/41402787
TH-cam algorithm has led me to this video for some reason...
I’m Korean and I’ve never had anything to do with Greek, but I must say that Im thoroughly enjoying this content
He is a genius and he is adored for his talent subscribe and see for yourself.
I'm Thais. Couldn't agree more. :)
Wow, this is great and you guys are awesome!
22:53 I remember watching a video of an Anglo professor disdainfully referring to Modern Greeks who butcher "classical" pronunciation, and recommended students who had their pronunciation criticized by Greeks to simply say that they use the "Erasmian" pronunciation. "Interesting,!", I thought. I really wanted to learn this restored Classical pronunciation... until I heard him speak. The thickest Gringo accent you could think of! You couldn't even make a parody of that. OF COURSE Italians and Greeks would stare in horror and politely tell them no thanks. I can't understand the nerve and lack of self-awareness required to condescend native Greeks AND present yourself as a model of correct pronunciation while sounding like Slavoj Zizek speaking English. I won't link to the video, but I'm sure we've all encountered such people.
In the end I decided to learn Modern Greek to the highest possible level: trying to absorb their prosody, rhythm, intonation, body language... (not that alien to me as a native Spanish speaker) and then move chronologically back, making incremental adjustments (Maybe even using materials intended for native Greek speakers?). I really like the pronunciation proposed in this video as it is basically Modern Greek, with a few tweaks to the vowels plus the addition of bilabial fricatives.
"...while sounding like Slavoj Zizek speaking English..." You killed me with that!!! LOLOLOLOLOL. Yes, I absolutely agree with what you said! As a native Greek, I am infuriated with the condescension and total lack of self-awareness by these people.
You sir, are a madman. Good luck in your journey.
Ironically, "gringo" derives from "griego"... that is... "Greek".
What can I say? We Americans are terrible at pronouncing foreign languages, including even British English!
Σας συγχαίρω κύριοι που διδάσκετε γνώσεις τις οποίες ακόμα και πολύ νέοι Έλληνες, δυστυχώς, δεν διδαχτήκαμε. Thank you so much for your work, things make a little bit more sense now.
As a person who regularly pronounces Koine Greek words for people, I appreciate the attention to detail here. I think I will be altering how I pronounce them, since I'm aiming for 1st century CE, and this transitional Lucian form hits that note perfectly. I don't actually know what form of Koine pronunciation I originally learned, since I worked hard at mimicking the sounds from my professor, rather than looking it up in IPA or inquiring further. Now you've got me curious!
Πολύ καλή προσέγγιση, μπράβο σας !
Όσο για την ερασμιακή προφορά, έχετε δίκαιο, είναι ότι πιο ξένο στο γλωσσικό ένστικτο του φυσικού ομιλητή των ελληνικών.
Εὐχαριστῶ, ῶ φίλε! Συμφωνῶ.
user-wobry7uk8n
Why the Deuce do modern Greeks chan ge the pronunciation of BRAVO into
μπράβο ??? ???
Brigitte Bardot into μπριγιτ μπάρδω ? This is hilarious ! And we should pronounce classic greek following modern greek degeneration ?
Is there any difference between Erasmian and the reconstructed pronunciation of Greek?
Erasmian accent sounds like a foreign language to greeks@@WhizzKid2012
As a classicist with a passing interest in linguistics, thank you for explaining all of the pronunciations and tongue positions. You truly make it really easy to replicate/understand for this English speaker. Being able to read or understand IPA is one thing, but in practice replicating it is much harder...
I am amazed! I have recently discovered your channel. I ve studied archaeology and I am teaching ancient Greek and Latin in public greek schools. It's really interesting how the lucian pronounciation just makes sense for native speakers of modern greek.
I studied under Dr. Buth in Jerusalem in 2017 (9 month Hebrew immersion intensive). He is without a doubt the most brilliant man I have ever met, he speaks ~15 languages (including Koine Greek) and seemed to know everything about everything. That being said, I find this discussion of different methods of pronunciation of ancient Greek absolutely fascinating. I don't know NEARLY enough Greek to be able to make an informed decision of which system I think is best, but on a purely subjective level I think your system sounds nicer on the ears. I think I will make the switch!
Nine month Hebrew immersion intensive sounds like 9 months of pain, that you would look back to in joy later in life 😂
Hi Nathan! Thanks for the kind compliment! I *love* Dr. Buth's work (he is also an excellent speaker), and I regret proposing an alternate Koine pronunciation since his scheme was very thoroughly thought out. It's probable that both Buth's and our systems were synchronic, and diatopic in nature.
If people like Buth's Late Koine Pronunciation, they should use it! If they were to make a couple historical modifications to it, I would include the palatalization of γ χ κ before front vowels, and geminated consonants (as in Cypriot Greek).
And if you add in the long/short vowel distinctions, you get access to all the poetry and music in the same pronunciation. If you did that, I would still call it a highly evolved variant of Lucian Pronunciation. Personally, I love the sound of the οι /y/and αι /ε/ per Buth's system.
polýMATHY I hope you get to meet Dr Buth some day if you haven’t already. I think you would get on like a house on fire. He has been fighting for teaching classical languages as living languages (and against the tyranny of the grammar-translation method) for decades.
@@lostdude5625 whaaaaaat? Hebrew is one of the most awesome languages ever...
You're doing great work :-)
Ὦ βέλτιστε ῥῆτορ! 😊Ἡμᾶς γὰρ ἀξίους οὐκ οἰόμεθα τοῦ ἐπαίνου σου, σοὶ δὲ χάριν πολὺν ἔχομεν. I regret we did not mention your work specifically in the video. My apologies! We hope that the link we provided to your channel in the description will at least help to bring more people (especially Ἕλληνες! 🇬🇷) to the idea of native Greeks exploring historical pronunciations. Podium-Arts is vital to our work outside of Greece. Πάλιν, ὦ ἄριστε Ἰωάννη, χάριτάς σοι ἴσμεν.
@@polyMATHY_Luke
Good start.
I commented already on your other video..
I forgot to mention that there isn't just a connection with french, but also with German.
There are many words such as υπέρ (über), γάρ (gar) and so on that can help you getting closer.
Another hint I could give you would be ήτα pronounced high like in the first syllabus of German verbs such as: lesen, gehen, sehen etc.
Maybe it sounds a bit far-fetched in the start but all those sounds create a special vibration when pronounced that affects the human energetic field (aura)..
Modern Greek doesn't have those ancient sounds anymore, just french and German is still carrying this kind of cultivation.
Those sounds are blocking the animal side of human nature hence people tend to become more intellectual...
Thank you for this video, it was quite informative! As my primary interest in Ancient Greek is studying comparative Indo-European linguistics, I feel like the archaic variant is best suited for my uses. I appreciate that you created different models for different time periods and use cases.
I’m glad you liked the video! There will soon be an update, so look out for that. Also see this: th-cam.com/video/fiSGxDV3JIQ/w-d-xo.html
Thank you SO MUCH for this! I love studying Koine Greek, but I simply could never, EVER abide with Erasmian pronunciation (i.e. "haw law-gaws" for ὁ λόγος just always stuck in my throat). Instead, I studied modern Greek pronunciation and superimposed that system onto my Koine Greek.
I really like having this soundly researched, transitional system that you have presented here, as well as your encouragement to acknowledge modern Greek as a guide--it's a great middle-of-the-road approach. I'm planning to adopt it fully for Koine Greek.
I'm so glad you like it! 😃 Let me know how it goes! Hopefully you find it useful.
Haw lawgaws? That's not Erasmian, that's just a bad American accent. It's ho logos.
@@hansmahr8627 the question then is, how are you pronouncing the letter o in ho logos. Is it a long o sound as in no or a short o sound as in hot. Erasmian pronunciation distinguished between omicron and omega by having omicron sound like a short English o sound... which is why "ho logos" sounds like Hah lah-gahs (as closely as I can write it).
@@TroyLFullerton Well it's difficult to use English vowels to describe the vowels of other languages because English vowels are actually often diphthongs or glides and not pure monophthongs. The o in no for example is not a pure o. It's also not the o in hot. The o in logos is a short [o], a close-mid back rounded vowel like in Italian como or German oder that (at least as far as I know) isn't used in British or American English.
@@hansmahr8627 is it close-mid though? possibly true-mid
wow! as a greek congratulations for your work!!! amazing
Amazing video, I was searching after a good video about ancient greek pronunciation for a long time and I think I couldn't have found a better one. Keep up the good work, by far the best channel on TH-cam about latin and ancient greek to me!
Please more videos with both of you guys. You guys are so incredible !!! It helped me so much
Thanks!
I've only given it a superficial glance so far, but I think that spreadsheet is going to blow my mind!
I can respect the desire to use a more evolved pronunciation to receive ancient texts. It has the facility of continuity. As a Chinese person I know that in every context outside of linguistics, modern Chinese is used to receive ancient texts even if they sound nothing similar like what we understand Old or Middle Chinese sounded like. Old Chinese reflects a phonetic system that existed from roughly the same period as Mycenaean to Roman Koine
Great pronunciation to the beautiful Greek language!
Thank you so much for this, I've been struggling to find an appropriate Koine pronunciation since all of my textbooks use completely different standards!
This is very gratifying to hear, Sam! Thank very much. Check back in later, and let me know if it has helped! 😊
I love your use of the IPA for pedagogical purposes.
I’m glad! Thanks
Συγχαρητήρια για τη δουλειά σας. Σας παρακολουθούμε πάντα με ενδιαφέρον και χαρά από Ελλάδα!
14:12 "not historically valid... namely Erasmian" *grins at the camera*
OOF! That shade! XD
Hahaha. Yeah, and like I said, use Erasmian if you want! No problem there. As long as people don't confuse it with an "historical" pronunciation anymore than Modern Greek pronunciation applied to Ancient Greek. Nothing wrong with it.
Fantastic resource for students! thank you Luke, keep up the amazing work.
Thanks so much! 😃
I love this pronunciation system. I started learning Ancient Greek using the Modern Greek pronunciation, but later on I changed the vowel phones η, υ, and οι to /e:/, /y/, and /øy/ and kept the Modern Greek qualities of all the other vowels, diphthongs and digraphs.
Cool! Yeah, I support pretty much any pronunciation convention.
I like this pronunciation system. It doesn't feeling like I'm hitting myself in the back of the head with a cane (not too much anyway). I hadn't really thought about the way σ is pronounced in modern Greek, either; I've done it automatically. And the transaction from the archaic φ/θ/χ to the modern makes much more sense now! I must have read it in Horrocks' book and not understood it.
Carla Hurt here, a Latin teacher from Australia. I love your pronunciation and from about a year ago I chose to undergo the slow but very rewarding process of changing my Greek pronunciation from academic Erasmian to an Archaic Variant of Lucian Pronunciation (I went with aspirated consonants because... I like the archaic sound). I'm still partway through this journey, making my first draft of an audiobook project, pronouncing all of the book of Matthew in AD50 Learned Koine. I've changed a lot about my pronunciation in this time, sometimes misreading the IPA and not realising I had been learning the wrong phoneme until months later, ahaha. But it has been very worth it and I have very much enjoyed the aesthetic exercise of paying close attention to things like phonemic vowel length and adding in a pitch accent.
Recently I'd been meaning to find your unlisted video on pitch accents again, so I could practice and fix some of my vices that seem to creep in gradually like weeds if I'm not checking myself with good spoken examples. It seems to have disappeared from Google searches - which feels such a loss. Even if we might not have arrived at a perfect grasp of pitch accent, that video was the most convincing and practical audio example of pitch accent I have ever found on the internet. I'd be tempted to make my own imperfect version of a "tips for saying pitch accents" video even just so that something like it exists again, though I do not claim authority in this area, just an interest in the practical application.
Hi! The link for the video is here: lukeranieri.com/audio/
@@polyMATHY_Luke Eυχαριστώ!
Amazing video. I will definitely continue to watch. Thank you very much.
Perhaps you would be interested to know that in modern cypriot there's a remnant of περισπωμένη. For example: ἐδῶ (from ancient ὧδε) has a very distinct intonation, today! However, ἐγώ may be similarly intoned in this dilect. Even though such word originally had ὀξεῖα, instead...
Κάλλιστα! Μάλιστά γε ἀρέσκει μοι τοῦτο εἰδέναι. Ἆρα ἔχεις παραδείγμα τι;
An example of cypriot dialect? Ἰδού, ἐν τῷ ποιήματι:
th-cam.com/video/kMMqvRvCFZY/w-d-xo.html
Excellent approach at last a non rigidly academic approach in a continues evolution of a living language.
Ευχαριστώ πολύ! 😊
Brilliant work to the two of you!
Thanks!
Late to the party but a very interesting approach! From a Greek perspective, I like how it acts like a bridge between Classical and before and modern pronunciation (which it really was come to think of it) with science to back up the choices. Will probably make my Portokalos compatriots as well as Erasmian diehards livid which is a big plus!
Reminds me though of my husband's complaints when he tried to learn modern Greek and particularly the one about turning honest to goodness vowels in "αυ/ευ" into consonants (though with his native language being English I'd say "the nerve"). He also posited, when I tried to explain how the word Αχαιοί probably sounded through the ages, that no, that was never a true name for people. It's just that someone inevitably would try to say the actual name but after "A" someone starting choking them.
Ευχαριστώ για τη σχόλια, Ειρήνη!
Would love a video on pitch accent. Keep up the great work, this content is unbelievably useful. Cheers
I like your system a lot. There is one thing that might be relevant about the treatment of βήτα (and perhaps δέλτα) after a pause or after a nasal. Just as you recommend that spiritus asper be sounded only sentence initially or after a pause, it might be appropriate to pronounce βήτα as a stop in the same phonological environments. It is believed that βήτα became a fricative first between vowels and later in other environments. So βήτα can be a voiced bilabial fricative [β] everywhere except after a pause or after [m] where it should be pronounced as a voiced bilabial stop [b], much as the letters b/v are pronounced [b] after a pause and [β] between vowels in Spanish.
You are probably aware that in modern Greek, β,δ are often still pronounced as stops after [m], [n] (you have already addressed that γάμμα is a stop after [ŋ]) Consider for example the modern Greek words κουμπί and άντρας which continue the Ancient Greek words κομβίον and ἄνδρα and are pronounced with a stop after each nasal. So perhaps βιβλίον could be pronounced [biβlion] after a pause and συμβέβληκας could be [symbeβleːkas]. What do you think?
Hi there! I'm Raph from the video haha. So first, yes, after a nasal stops should be retained as in MG, I guess we just neglected to mention this lol. Secondly, this is a really good point, and we considered prescribing it as you say, where basically it works exactly as in modern Spanish. However, the voiced stops start becoming fricatives significantly earlier than the voiceless aspirates, so we think that by this period a full transition to fricatives is not implausible, and since part of our goal is to prescribe something with the highest likelihood of pleasing the Greeks, we chose to ignore potential allophony. Plus, unless you're a Spanish speaker or a speaker of another language with this sort of allophonic lenition, it's a bit more work to learn than just using fricatives all the time. That said, we don't expect people to adopt this system without some modifications, and the one you propose is perfectly valid for those who prefer it! :-)
Yup! Raph and I decided to cut out the mention of -ν + β- = /mb/ (for example) for the sake of keeping the video a bit shorter, since this is consistent with Greek of all periods.
And just as Raph said, we do think that the Spanish approach to the voiced stops (instead of fricatives) is a prefectly reasonable pronunciation! He and I are both Spanish speakers so we find this appealing aesthetically too. But we also love Modern Greek and enoy the full-fricative version. If you like the Spanish-style, go for it!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Hi, I have a few questions
In coptic words loaned into greek, a coptic omega often becomes υ, like in the months Ϩαθωρ, Τωβι, Παωνι which become Ἁθύρ, Τυβί, Παϋνί. How is that explained? (a sound change from /o/ to /y/ seems quite far)
My other question is summed up here:
www.reddit.com/r/Koine/comments/h9yx43/vowel_mergers_in_koine_transcriptions/
(I notice I shouldn't have used "koine era" for all since part of these transcriptions happened in byzantine era.)
For native speakers of Cantonese, the more archaic end of the pronunciation spectrum will be easier to learn, I think.
Cantonese share some sound inventory with Ancient Greek. But it is also very different. A cantonese person who also speaks Japanese, Italian or Spanish will be better equipped. Better yet if they can also speak other European languages like Latvian and Finnish, due to the pitch accent in the former and the vowel/consonant length distinctions in both.
maybe not many people watch it but plz dont be sicouraged your hard word is super cool. i dont watch all of your videos but i find super intresting the ones i watch and am bad at expressing thoughts in english so just take awat that your awesome :) .
Thanks so much! What's your native language?
@@polyMATHY_Luke greek :) and i find more easy to pronounce slavic languages than saying οι as ωι and αι ας ααι.. xd. But im from epirus and just like my grandma i pronounce some words heavier i think
@@johnnyroyal6404 On the positive, us greek nerds here love a strong greek accent, so your best attempt is english at least sounds beautiful, unlike a greek which learns a perfect english accent :-)
Defintely a nice proposal, since it is a balance between the Classical and Modern -old and new-. By the way, I've read your PDF document (which is fascinating, since you're basically telling us the phonological history of Greek) and I think you should have added on page 14 "QUANTITY & QUALITY" that consonant gemination is still a feature of today's Cypriot Greek dialect (in order to encourage its use).
20:07 Aspirate /h/
As Thais, it's easy for us to distinguish. Your pronunciation is on point. Similar to Thai letter ข, ถ, ผ, respectively.
The thing I've had to do with Greek is watching a documentary about Greek in many areas from philosophy to architecture but not language - in particular. Anyway, I really enjoy your vids till the end.
While learning Ancient Greek I tended to try to keep the normal d and g sounds and also ph and th. The biggest problem for me is when they are followed by a consonant, it's very hard to make the aspiration easy to hear and to pronounce. Examples: aphlektos, anthropon, or even aphthonos. So that's why in the end now I think that a more modernized pronunciation is more "manageable".
I've been shopping around Ancient Greek pronunciation systems before diving in to learning Greek and glad I came across your system. How I wish it was as simple as the two choices commonly used with Latin! I really want to use a spoken, living language approach to learning and at first planned on trying to imitate Ioannis Stratakis' Attic pronunciation; however you've raised some excellent points that have me reconsidering. Could you compare this system to those used by the Polis Institute as well as Accademia Vivarium Novum? I'm particularly curious how those systems handle vowel length and how mutually intelligible they are. Thank you Luke and Raphael for all your work on this!!
Thanks so much for your comment! I think you’ll really like Lucian Pronunciation. I recommend you read this essay of mine where I go into detail about all of this expert-experimenter-2558.ck.page/abae340f49
Polis and Vivarium Novum just use Erasmian pronunciation, and don’t include phonemic vowel length, the most essential feature - Erasmian does not represent an historical reconstruction, but masquerades as being one. Enjoy reading! Let me know if you have further questions.
According to Polis Institutes book "Speaking Greek as a living language" page IV "We [Polis] followed the pronunciation that belonged to the cultural elite at the beginning of the koine period. . .Why? The decisive factor was pedagogical. In the first century Greek pronunciation had become far removed from the spelling, a phonetic evolution that adds complexity to a language already reputed to be challenging to learn." Polis refers to this pronunciation as "early high koine".
As far as I know africate consonants, namely pφ, tθ and maybe kχ exist in some Dodecanesean dialects (especially Rhodes, Karpathos and Kasos). And they co-exist with bilabial f and v sounds. Also these people use all longs by positions in their speech (I mean geminated consonants and they generally have the tendency to pause in double consonants like ξ, ψ, and even Ζ or in the ones that are formed between different words and also in consonantal clusters). Probably, in the Docanese, the most conservative version of Greek phonology is used (especially by the older people). My plan is to learn to speak Ancient Greek (not just translate) and I find their speech helpful input towards that goal :)
Very cool. Let me know how it goes.
Well that settles it, your recommended pronunciation guide is right for me. I am choosing to expand from Latin to ancient Greek to develop a better affinity for all Proto Indo European languages.
Great! Have a good time. Post questions when you have them
Ah so you are the ScorpioMartianus guy! Fantastic! Great job guys! I will be most likely using the more into archaic verchion of lucian pronounciation and this is great you have developed such flexible, facts and great analysis based system!
Enjoy!
7:00 I'm a native Cypriot Greek speaker and I think double stops (ττ, ππ, κκ ) are pronounce as aspirates ( /tʰ/ /pʰ/ /kʰ/) in Cypriot Greek . Or at least that's how I perceive them .
It's true that in Cypriot they are both aspirated and Geminated. This prooobably wasn't already the case in Koine (i.e. they were probably just geminated).
@@Philoglossos I agree. Do you know any sources that talk about Cypriot Greek phonology ?
@@andreasi8741 This is the one I've read, but you might be able to find more comprehensive ones: web.archive.org/web/20160123141552/www.kent.ac.uk/secl/ell/staff/amalia-arvaniti/docs/ArvanitiCY.pdf
As a Cypriot I agree. νν μμ λλ σσ are pronounced as proper double consonants, but κκ ττ ππ are as you said.
As a greek, bravo
Ευχαριστώ πολύ!
Thanks. I was searching for the Ancient Greek pronunciation and I just found you. 👍👍👍
Oh great! Definitely read my essay too
secureservercdn.net/166.62.114.250/h13.ace.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/ancient_greek_pronunciation_guide_ranieri_2021.pdf
@@polyMATHY_Luke Ok. Btw, whatever you're doing with Latin that's great man for all the Latin learners.
I'm learning French and Sanskrit (seriously) and dabbling in Latin. 😄😄
Wonderful! I have a video on learning French I’m working on. You’ll enjoy it!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks man. 👍👍👍
Ok, this may be harded that I though. I really accustomed to the Late Koine pronuntiation, but I'll try to use it.
Looking forward to your discussion of the pitch accent.
ἀσύνετοι οἱ πολλοί... τινὶ τὰ τῶν πάλαι ὄντως ἀναγιγνώσκοντι ὀλίγον διαφέρει ἡ γνησία προφορά, εἴπερ ἐστί, διαλεγομένους γὰρ ἄλλοις ἀνθρώποις οὐ δεῖ ἡμᾶς προσέχειν τῷ τρόπῳ τοῦ προφέρειν, ἀλλὰ τῷ κατ' αὐτὸν λόγῳ .
Ταὐτὸ γοὖν καὶ τοῖς νεοέλλησι λεκτέον, ὧνπερ οὐκ ὀλίγοι λυπηρῶς πολλάκις τοὺς σλαβοφώνους/ξενοφώνους(!) νεοελληνίζοντας χλευάζουσι. Τῶν ἀλλοτρίων τὰ ἐγχειρήματα οὐκ ἐκτιμῶσι.
This looks familiar to a koine Greek student. Can you provide a translation?
I can translate some parts, but some seem to not make sense.
Here's my attempt:
Many are unwise... The true pronunciation differs a little to him who really reads the things of old (or should ὄντως be placed here?)
Indeed it is, for we do not ought to pay attention how to pronounce, when discussing with other men/people, but [to pay attention] for the reason why [the pronunciation is such].
Where did I go wrong? Anyone else who can offer some help, is much appreciated!
Fascinating. I'm here because of a deep frustration with the typical modern British English pronunciation of Greek names and words, but also because I'm trying to understand the sound changes in the development of Celtic languages - such as the reasons for the P / Q split. I think the sound changes in ancient Greek give some valuable insight into this. Aside from figuring out how τέτταρες becomes pedwar in Welsh and quatre in French, my big question is - why?
The PIE sound was [kʷ], which Latin retaind as “quattuor,” “quantus” and Greek makes this /t/ or /p/ τέτταρες, πόσος. Welsh did a similar thing. Changing the velar sound into /p/ also occurs in Romanian: opt < octō
@@polyMATHY_Luke yes indeed, although I can't help feeling we shouldn't use realis mood when talking about proto languages. Palatization and velarization are much easier to understand than this radical shift in place of articulation, which can be found in diatopical neighbours such as Welsh / Irish and Umbrian / Latin
I think the answer I'm looking for is to do with phonotactics. Initial consonant mutation is a feature of Celtic languages - one theory is that it may be caused by participles in older forms, which have since been dropped. There may also be issues of perceived cacophony avoidance or simply "doing things differently" in order to differentiate one language from its neighbours - like Brazilian Portuguese consistently using the plural form of the 2nd person and European Portuguese consistently using the singular. I don't know if we will ever have a definitive answer :D
A friend just asked me about how we know what pronunciation was used in “Ancient Greek”. I started having PTSD over the months (!) that I spent trying to get the “right” pronunciation. I set him on to Lucian pronunciation to get him studying Ancient Greek rather than chasing the Wil ‘o the Wisp that several teachers are trying to nail down as the exact historically correct AG pronunciation. But for the love of all that’s holy, whatever your pronunciation, SPEAK WITH A GREEK ACCENT!!!
I had seven (!) years of Latin and two years of Greek in secondary school, and I remember very little of it. Little did I know that I ended up becoming a descriptive linguist working on Ryukyuan languages. I discovered your channel a month ago, and you've convinced me to start relearning Latin and Greek. I managed to obtain Orbergs book for Latin, but I was wondering if there's any textbook you can recommend for Greek. The books by Polis look promising, but so does Athenaze... Can you recommend any of those?
Keep up the good work, Luke! You're eloquence is inspiring!
Just stumbled onto your excellent channel - immediately subscribed. Έξοχον!
Εὐχαριστῶ σοι! Ἆρα σὺ Ἔλλην εἶ;
polýMATHY - Παρακαλώ, φίλτατε. Ita vero: ego non enim solum Graecus, sed Graecus Graecorum - Graecus sum apud Romanos.
@@dorianphilotheates3769 Κάλλιστα! Ἥδομαι γάρ σε γιγνώσκειν, ὦ φίλε Δωριᾱνέ. Ἆρα ἀληθῶς ἡ ἐμή Λουκιᾱνὴ ὀνομαζομένη Προφορᾱ́ σοι ἀρέσκει; 😃 Χάριν παραδίγματος, ἰδοῦ τοῦτο τὸ βιβλίον ὃ τῇ φωγνῇ μου ἀνέγνων· drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GFjDEJtpRUCZsoPitPfcaAvPtsrG1ilP
In my experience, few Greeks tolerate recitations of Ancient Greek in any voice other than those from Greece itself. Yet I am hopeful to make Lucian Pronunciation appealing to the Greek ear. I will be very grateful to have your opinion on my work so far. 😊 Χάριν σοι οἶδα! 🇬🇷
Θα ήθελα να σας ευχαριστήσω γι'αυτό το βίντεο γιατί με βοήθησε πολύ να συνεχίσω τις αρχαιοελληνικές σπουδές μου.
Αποφάσισα πέρυσι να μαθαίνω αρχαία ελληνικά γιατί μου φαίνονταν πολύ ενδιαφέροντα, αλλά μόνο ήξερα την αττική προφορά που μου φαινόταν πάντα πολύ παράξενη, ειδικά η προφορά των φωνηέντων «η» και «ω», που πάντα ήθελα να προφέρω σαν [eː] και [oː]. Σκεφτόμουν όμως ότι πρέπει να μάθω απόλυτα σωστή αττική προφορά για να μιλάω αρχαία ελληνικά. Ήταν ανόητη ιδέα, αλλά ήταν λόγω αυτής που δεν έμαθα πολύ, και την πρώτη φορά που βρήκα το βίντεο σας, δεν ήθελα να δοκιμάσω τη Λουκιανή προφορά. Αργότερα παρέλαβα μια ευκαιρία από το πανεπιστήμιό μου να σπουδάσω αρχαίο ελληνικό πολιτισμό και νέα ελληνικά στην Ελλάδα για την άνοιξη, οπότε άρχισα να μαθαίνω νέα ελληνικά αντί για τα αρχαία πριν ταξιδέψω.
Τώρα ήθελα να συνεχίσω να μαθαίνω αρχαία ελληνικά, αλλά έγινε πολύ δύσκολο να επιστρέψω στην αττική προφορά μετά από πέρασα 3 μήνες χρησιμοποιώντας νέα ελληνική προφορά. Βρήκα πάλι αυτό το βίντεο και τώρα μου φαίνεται υπέροχο. Τις περασμένες εβδομάδες δοκίμασα την προφορά σε τυχαία μέρη που βρίσκω αρχαία ελληνικά κείμενα και είναι πολύ εύκολο να προφέρω. Το μονάδικο παράξενο πράγμα αυτής της προφοράς είναι η προφορά της λέξης «και» σαν [cae̯], γιατί το μυαλό μου θέλει να την προφέρω σαν [ce] (νέα) ή [kai] (αττική), αλλά είναι ακόμα καλό για μένα. Αποφάσισα να χρησιμοποιώ αυτήν την προφορά στις σπουδές μου αρχαίων ελληνικών, και κάνω όρεξη να μαθαίνω πάλι. Σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ! Καλή συνέχεια!
-από έναν φιλόγλωσσο από την Αμερική
Some of these pronunciations look like quantum field theory equations haha
Haha
I dream to understand all refs in chuunibyou op physics parody legit tho
That's hilarious! 😂😂😂😂
I love it! Bravo!
Love the way this is edited.
Thank you for making this accessible. I find your work very interesting. Any thoughts on insights that might be gleaned from Romeyka (Pontic Greek) pronunciation in relation to your Lucian Pronunciation?
Hi Karl. Pontic is really fascinating! It’s mostly derived from Byzantine Greek so it represents many aspects of Greek about a millennium after where I put Lucian Pronunciation
Enhorabuena por el vídeo.
OK- as someone who’s finally pulled out the ancient greek textbooks I bought two years ago at a used bookstore (thanks, quarantine!), I really really appreciate your videos on greek so far and they’ve helped answer one or two questions I’ve had diving into the first couple pages even. Especially with the distinctions between different eras of X pronunciation- while not fluent I’ve got a long history with russian so I was very guilty of wondering if, and assuming, it was close to that russian in-between pronunciation based off the explanation given in my text, so I’m very grateful for that to be settled.
I know your channel is mostly Latin, but would you consider doing a video going through the sounds of Classical Greek as a whole? I originally found your channel looking for just that and instead found all the Discourse about era pronunciations- which is fine!!! It’s been really fascinating! 😂 Or do you have any classical greek pronunciation videos here on yt you feel are great and would recommend? Because that’s really feeling like a huge roadblock right now. If not either way that’s 110% fine. 😁
Thanks again for all the work and thought you’ve put into these videos. You’ve managed to do something extremely difficult- make complex ideas much simpler to understand. And that’s awesome.
I am going to make videos just like you ask, Phoenix! 😃All part of the plan. And I have quite a few on my Latin/Ancient Greek channel ScorpioMartianus:
th-cam.com/video/kaQt4Ormzbs/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/play/PLU1WuLg45SixrxviQiHOlkdkT-XPvyrgv.html
polýMATHY In a world where I just found out I’ll continue to be stuck in corona lockdown until freaking June, your reply makes me so happy. Thanks man, and I’ll def check out the links!!
Have you seen Podium arts? He is Greek but does the reconstructed Attic pronunciation beautifully.
This system is as close to perfect as I can imagine! I only wish that the song at the end was sung by someone who was more acceptant of it :/
Thanks! Haha yes, I have not yet publicizem my own recording of the same song. I will soon!
I don't know much about any Greek, so I was surprised to hear that Greek has these same consonants as Irish! Broad and slender for "g" and "c" and "ch" are exactly like Irish. However it is strange to me that any language can have these but still they don't have two different "L" sounds.
What a beautiful convention, plus an excellent illustration of how to pronounce words not only how to transcribe them. Similar conventions often lack a spoken illustration. Kudos to both of you! A question: What about using a labiodental approximant [ʋ] in the two false diphthongs αυ, ευ instead of a bilabial rounded fricative [βʷ ~ ɸʷ]? In other words, what about αυ [aʋ] and ευ [e̞ʋ]. The sound [ʋ] (often an allophone of /v/) and the change [w] > [ʋ] (> [v]) are well attested cross-linguistically. The sound [βʷ ~ ɸʷ] is probably closer to [w], while [ʋ] (which is basically [v̞]) is probably closer to [v ~ f]. Using [ʋ] would have a funny effect of introducing another IPA symbol looking very like a Greek letter. It seems to me that the sound [βʷ ~ ɸʷ] goes along well with more conservative pronunciations of affricates [kx, tθ, pɸ] and is in the same category of sound that may be difficult more to be produced and/or understood by speakers of (Western) European languages. The sound [ʋ] goes better with a more progressive change to [x, θ, ɸ] and may be easier to be produced by speakers of (Western) European. It is attested as a allophone of /r/ in some variates of English, a phoneme or an allophone of /v/ in other Germanic languages (Dutch, Norwegian, Danish, and Southern German) and allophone of /v/ in Slavic languages (Slovak, Slovene, Ukrainian). Happy to hear your opinion!
Wicked velar fric explanation transferable to the Semitic sounds that I've been struggling
Oh sick. In learning (hardly) the arabic abjad I had the intuition that the letters are almost cartoon shapes of how to pronounce the sound. This subsequently has helped me symbolically remember and sound through a problem. The aspirated occulusives also follow the similar pattern and then sound of the arabic letters that sound so foreign to the west
As French, i have mostly all the phonems. But it is still difficult to have the correct accentuation on words and long vowels. I have the same problems with latin. 😅 Exception for the consonants, they are very strange.
Finally someone explains it. Great video guys, informative even for native modern greek speakers such as myself.
😂 I'm laughing because both A) I'm self-aware enough to think "who the hell is this for?" and B) I actually needed this and have had so many of these concerns.
My wife is rolling her eyes at my excitement.
Why would anyone want to ignore the importance of phonemic vowel length and geminated consonants? That wouldn’t get you anywhere in certain _modern_ languages… namely Japanese. It’s the difference between a tourist mangling a phrasebook and a competent speaker.
lol exactly! Thank you.
It’s interesting that υ has survived with this pronunciation in some villages in Attica. My grandma pronounces it that way but only in some words such as «σκύλος» (dog) when she is speaking in the accent of her village and my uncle was always joking that it was just her village being weird. Somehow it didn’t occur to me earlier that they have kept the ancient pronunciation.
Also you did a great job and it sounds completely normal to a native speaker, unlike Erasmian that sounds disgusting.
Yes!!! I have had issues with the υ sound and have been trying for years to find a surviving example from accents all over Greece and beyondto provide some insight, and it was right there at my home in Attica. Family origins were from outside Attica but I have heard that υ so many times and never registered (στον ουρανό το γύρευα στη γη το βρήκα!) Unbelievable!
I just commented how a linguistic study of native accents and dialects should be undertaken to find surviving remnants of ancient sounds and get native speakers to perform the reconstructions.
My dad is from the region of Olympia in Peloponnesus and when we were kids he used to answer the phone with ναι that he pronounced similar to ney or nay.
Thanks for the observation!
What do you think about Philemon Zachariou's theory and his book "Reading and Pronouncing Biblical Greek: Historical Pronunciation versus Erasmian"? Do you know him? Have you read it?
I’ll let you know once I get the chance to review it. Look for that on the secondary channel
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you very much. I will do it!
Great Job!
For the purposes of deciding how to pronounce a gamma, why are diphthongs that begin with back vowels considered front vowels?
The exact same thing happens in Icelandic, actually.
7:05 WOOOOOO Cypriot Greek mentioned
Although, if you wanna say it in Cypriot Greek, the double sounds are way harsher
Imagine mushing together as many t's or as p's as you can
And put some spit to it, much like the English t or p
Makes me thing that you are talking about two very different geminated consonants, because ours today are way harsher, like the English t, instead of what I think you were going for which was just holding the sound with a pause
Also this is VERY INTERESTING
I never realised we replaced our own sounds of β and φ (the Main Prescribed Version), and I've been sitting here for a while trying the sounds and it is true
but it always comes naturally to say the older sounds, but it's still interesting to see how the Greek sounds have changed, and they became more cut-out and clear and those weird middle sounds getting removed an becoming more extreme in pronounciation
When working where Greek was commonly spoken, I definitely heard pitch, which was slightly different from that found in the Jugoslav group. (Pitch and Length)
This is so interesting!
Grazie!
Thank you !
THANK YOU.
Thank you so much for this very informative video! I am a modern Greek speaker and this pronounciation does sound very friendly, but in a way also feels correct (while the modern does not- after all, if we have 5 different ways to write the same i sound, there must be a reason!) I am by no means a specialist, but there is a word that keeps me confused as to the lasting of the pronunciation of δασεία. Namely, the word αρέσω (to like) which used to have an aspiration, was borrowed into Bulgarian as "haresvam". Yet, I know no other greek words that carried their δασεία into the slavic languages. Bulgarians came in contact to Greek speakers somewhere in the late 7th century, if I am not mistaken. So what was happening with the δασεία?
What is your opinion on the Reuchlinian pronunciation of Ancient Greek? I think this one is based on how Greek was pronounced by the end of Byzantine empire.
It’s not; it’s the pronunciation of Modern Greek. I recommend Lucian Pronunciation for the reasons explained
@@polyMATHY_Luke i mean by the end of the byzantine empire greek was probably pronounced much like modern greek bar a few things (mb nd ng rather than b d g)
Συγχαρητήρια!!!! Excellent work!!! I wachted most of your videos. Υπάρχουν αρκετοί Έλληνες που δεν γνωρίζουν ότι η αρχαία ελληνική γλώσσα είχε άλλη προφορά απο την μοντέρνα ελληνική. Bravo Bravo for your work!!! Maybe you could make also a video reading some of sofokles or euripides or aisxilos tragedies.
It would be very very very interesting having also some details about ancient Greece theater and the way it used to be played.
I idia einai Elisavet, aplws eimaste komplexikoi epeidi to lene oi xenoi tis vlakeies tous
Luke, it would be interesting to hear you address the relationship between Latin and Greek. We know that Greek lit. was much beloved by Roman people of letters, but it begs the question - are these all loan words from Greek, or did many of these words descend from proto Latin...centuries and centuries of enriching ones language by trolling Greek texts...but to this extent? and there is VERY little coherent writing on the subject. For the most part, it is mostly treated by paleo linguists comparing their relationships to IE. All i know is that as a modern Greek speaker with some exposure to ancient Greek, it really seems like every fifth word is familiar to me! It truly would make a great segment...and thank you again for giving space to the successor spoken languages of Greek and Latin!
Great work! As a greek though I'd like to point out one thing. That ph thing that sounds like p+h i think it is not correct. You see in angient greek for a very long time the letter H was used to signal a lower in voice that coincides many times with a brief exhalation that produces the H sound. If you pay close attention, p already has that ability let's say in "παίδες". That usage is cofirmed in words written that way such as "ΗΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ". In addition in attic greek there was one f that was used so apparently they didn't have the need for two f. So what must be happening with ph is this. If you say "φυτό" that f is higher and if you say "φόβος" the f sounds lower (something between an f and the sound you make blowing a candle). Moreover in greece in general people depending on the alphabet they were using (which you know was different from area to area) instead of writting f they wrote ph. That was because they were borrowing the older h usage, and since p v f were in the same category with the loudest being p and most quiet being f they wrote it as p+h. Besides how could you write a letter without having already one to represent the sound you try to discribe in your alphabet and without inventing a new one? So maybe the romans knowing that in greek both f and ph were used depending on the area, thay might have copied it letter by letter to distinguish the lighter f from the lower ph depending on the word that Φ was used.
a lot of italic languages that borrowed the greek alphabet used not Φ, but 8 (a special letter) or FH to note the sound /f/. letters inspired by Ф didn't start being used for f until pretty late down the line (starting with gothic and later cyrillic, but notably not coptic, georgian or armenian, which were created earlier. coptic even had its own letter for /f/ and used Φ for /p/). Φ is also systematically used for hebrew or phoenician or aramaic Pe, even in positions where it wasn't becoming /f/
also I'm not sure how you are classifying sounds by 'loudness'? especially as in terms of volume, /f/ is louder than /p/ given the later is a plosive
@@wordart_guian I'm not sure how it is called in English so I'm translating from greek to English directly. In grammar we learn that there are 3 types of consonants. Psila means those that sound louder and sharper for example P, and dasea are those that sound deeper and less than the others for example f. There are also the mesa literally meaning "in the middle" that sound louder that the dasea and deeper that psila for example V. Now f depending on the following letter can sound deferently. For example if you say "filo" (leaf) that f sounds sharper than "fotia" (fire). That distinction between those f where made in roman times as far as i understand it and as people who study ancient greek phonology have told me that they believe. Phobos and phoenix where written with ph because that f was deeper than filos (friend) for example. The use of ph instead of f was copied from the ancients greek alphabets that didn't use the letter f but instead used ph to describe the sound. The way of thinking behind that combination is that you are using p to show that that sound is plosive and you pick p because it's the loudest (psilo). Then you complement it with the letter H having its original use (that of showing where your Voice should deepen). So to sum up, from p you know the sound is plosive, p is psilo so you add the H to make it dasi. And that's how you make f. My English is not the best I'm trying to.explain something as best as i can without knowing the proper terms. If i confuse you I'm really sorry 😁
@@panagiotispagonis6856 don't worry about your english, you're doing great.
phonetic descriptions in antiquity were shoddy at best though, psilo and dasea (terms first used in antiquity) can be interpreted however you want. modern terminology (untainted by language change) would be:
voiceless plosives: π τ κ at all times
voiced plosives: romance b/d/g, reconstructed classical greek β δ γ
aspirated plosives: icelandic/pinyin p t k, reconstructed classical/koine greek φ θ χ
(if the 3 series were grouped in antiquity, it's because they were all stops, they're described as not being able to be pronounced without a supporting vowel, which describes stops))
voiceless affricates: reconstructed koine greek φ θ χ = modern greek πφ τθ κχ, as well as τσ.
voiceless fricatives: modern φ θ χ σ
voiced fricatives: koine & modern β δ γ ζ
the difference between filo and fotia as you describe it, is called palatalization (affection of a consonant by a front vowel)
[f] is not a plosive at all, it is a fricative.
in english plosives include p t k b d g. fricatives include f th s sh h v z. affricates include ch and j.
side note:
on the other hand, θ was always transcribed as th in latin, always written as θ in greek, and always used to transcribe normal t from semitic languages (with τ being only used for emphatic t, including empathic fricative t as in arabic transcriptions. this fricative being modern arabic zza, it sounds closer to a modern greek δ but was always transcribed with τ)
(Help) Someone knows if the palatalization of "κ" before front vowels is optional in the main prescribed version? Because in the series Ancient Greek in Action and even in this video sometimes they pronounced "κ" with the /k/ sound.
Not quite. Getting an ear for the IPA symbol /c/ takes time. Depending on your experience level, you may hear it as /kj/ or /k/. But I assure you, it’s /c/
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks! :D
just wanted to add in cypriot greek, doubled consonants like pp, kk, tt are aspirated, like in these words
άππαρος (apparos) = άλογος (alogos) = horse
κύκκος (jykkos) = κύκκος (kykos) = kykkos, a monastery in pafos
* γκάττος (gattos) = γάτος (gatos) = cat
* sometimes i also hear γάττος, but that is not important
this is what i know from limassol. maybe its different in lefkosia or pafos
This is true, though not true in Italiot Greek which also retains geminates.
Thank you guys so much for your work! I still use much if not all of your convention for my own interaction with Koine. Have you considered doing anything similar with Classical Greek? Also, I can't seem to find any guide like this for Latin on either of your channels; is there one that you would recommend? Keep up the good work! Valete!
4:00 - If σ and ζ are retracted, does the same apply to ξ and ψ? Are they pronounced as k + retracted s and p + retracted s, or just ks and ps in English?
Also, Greek: An Intensive Course by Hardy Hansen and Gerald M. Quinn presents υι and ηυ as diphthongs that each sound like "we" and "e + u". Are they treated as diphthongs in the Lucian Pronunciation as well? If so, how are they pronounced? The guide on your websites says that υι is pronounced like long-υ, but how about ηυ?
+ Thank you for this video, I've recently began learning Ancient Greek and your channel has been really helpful.
Thanks for watching! Yes, any time /s/ appears it should be retracted, including ξ ψ, which sound identical in Modern Greek.
Hardy and Quinn, like most other grammars, don’t take any serious interest in Ancient phonology, so those are just conventional approximations. See the Greek Pronunciation Chronology spreadsheet towards the bottom of the main page on LukeRanieri.com for how these sounds changed
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you!
Hi Luke! Do you have a video pronouncing the names of Greek and Roman Mythology? :D
@relendil
THIS is THE GOOD IDEA comming out of all those discussions
CAESAR > sisoo..
POMPEIUS pompy
CICERO sisiroeu
RAMSES ramEses....
Great video and content. Wondering if there are any updates to this pronunciation, being that this is 2 years old.
All the best,
Well when I started studying ancient Greek, the first thing I wanted was to be able to distinguish spelling by sound. But in class everyone pronounces, for example, ει and η the same, which makes difficulties for me. I accept that certain different spellings might have sounded the same at certain times, just as they do in English. But it seems likely that at some time they were distinguished. The pronunciation at that point is the one to which I would like a standard to approximate.
Yeah I feel the same way. Lucian pronunciation is for you! 😊
Great video!! I don't think erasmian is organically sound too. The use of n in Aeolian looks to go before θ and after γ,"hitting in the first and resounding in the second. I saw this in old norse a bit. Also Υ and U must be like Ü and u. I wonder about υπογεγραμμένη.
ναι! Είναι αλήθεια
Omg, and I thought you were talking of Lucian, the Syrian writer, of Samosata.
And I'd assumed it was named after Luke himself!
Thanks for the tips Luke and Rafael, excellent video, thanks for indicating the works of the Roman grammarian Luciano, both for Greek and Latin, one thing I confirmed with you, both vulgar Greek (Koine) and vulgar Latin (latinorio) are diastrical variants and diachronic with the ancient and classic standard, the mistake of many and taking the modern and vulgar standard as the right measure of a language, the beauty of the video of you 2 refutes that if there is modern speech and before it vulgar speech, and because both derive from the common basis of classical and ancient, evil and following ideologies and personal preferences.
And to be honest brothers and friends I never saw Koine and Latin as a rule to Greek and Latin in their proper contexts.
That always rang false in my perception.
Medieval and modern Europe changed and greatly worsened our perception of Latin and Greek and in the classic and archaic authors we will discover the soul of these languages that are still relevant today for science, art and philosophy and even for the religion of many.
In Lucian Pronunciation, should the rules for the aspirate be applied to the rough breathing mark with smooth breathing marks being ignored, or should both smooth and rough breathing marks both be treated the same?
Hi there! I have a ton of audio where you can hear what I do at LukeRanieri.com/audio. In short, I treat the /h/ as I do in Latin: pronounced distinctly except in rapid speech between words. So, in short, pronounce it as /h/
In base a quali fonti storico-linguistiche avete scelto questo tipo di pronuncia (che è solo ipotetica rispetto a quella erasmiana, ugualmente ipotetica, in uso nelle scuole italiane)?
Awesome 👏🏼 thanks
Εὐχαριστῶ σοι ὅτι εἶδες τὴν ταινίᾱν ἡμῶν. 😃
Was there a follow-up video on pitch accent?
Soon!
Can you do a video on iambic trimeter scansion and recitation?
Thanks for sharing your research and putting this all together.
You mention Ben Kantor as someone using Buth's pronunciation scheme, which is true but only part of the picture. To do justice to Ben, he's done a lot of his own work on a koine pronunciation and does adhere to, for example, a palatalized gamma before front vowels.
I deeply admire my friend and colleague in these matters, the great Ben Kantor! He and I speak with some regularity on these topics and his research is quite amazing.
He does indeed palatalize γ, which is the prescribed Buth Koine pronunciation. The issue I have with Buth Koine is this palatalization is not generalized to χ and κ, which is necessary linguistically speaking. Just one of the three palatalizing doesn’t make sense.
The only reason for Buth not prescribing this appears to be because palatalization isn’t easily understood to the English ear without some practice. If gamma sounds like English y then it’s easy enough.
However, this is actually the very thing Buth rails against in the beginning of his wonderfully written paper which sets the groundwork for all this: he laments that Erasmian is much less historically motivated, than it is influenced by what is easier for the Western European language speaker to utter. And then he stops short of actually employing a truly historically extant phonetic system.
Dr. Buth and I spoke about this at length in a public forum online. www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5159
@@polyMATHY_Luke
Thanks for your reply; I see now you're plenty familiar with Ben's work, so thanks for humoring me.
I've been grateful to begin with Buth's pronunciation scheme since I began studying greek a few years ago, but I have tweaked my pronunciation according to Ben's work as I've gone along.
The reason I mentioned Ben palatalizing γ was that when I first started it wasn't clear to me from Buth's pronunciation paper or (more importantly) from the first BLC greek video course that any palatalization was occurring. Some other's describing the restored system mentioned it for gamma, but not universally, and it was quite confusing for me at the time.
You may be interested to know that as I've continued to try to speak with fluency, I've found that palatalization seems to naturally occur for me for χ (I haven't yet been able to figure out what a palatal κ is). For example I would struggle to maintain the guttural nature (wrong label?) of χ in the phrase ἐκχεῖ ὕδωρ ἐκ τοῦ ποτηρίου.
I did read with interest your discussion with Dr. Buth some time ago, and appreciated the opportunity for you both to debate some of the distinctions between your systems when (compared to e.g. Erasmian) there is so much in common.
The first time I watched your video it struck me that I've developed close to your 'evolved' pronunciation scheme, which was a bit of fun. I've greatly benefited from the work you've made available, so please keep up the good work!
Oliver Crosato thanks! As for palatalization of kappa, I recommend listening to lots of Modern Greek. It’ll become very clear what the sound is after a short time.