Conversation: Ancient Greek vs. Modern Greek [SUB ESP]
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- A conversation with my Greek friend Ioanna about the differences between ancient and modern Greek.
I narrate and illustrate the full Ancient Greek text we read here: • Plato's Cave Allegory ...
And you can explore it independently here: www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/t...
Learn about Ancient Greek accents here: • Learn Ancient Greek: I...
--- TIMESTAMPS ---
00:00 Intro: Who is Ioanna?
01:10 Learning Ancient Greek in Greece
02:00 Is it Normal to Learn Ancient Greek in Greece?
03:02 Remarks on Ancient Greek and Modern Greek
03:45 Reading Ancient Greek With Erasmian Pronunciation
05:52 Reading Ancient Greek With Modern Greek Pronunciation
07:22 Discussion of the Differences Between Both Pronunciations
08:00 Discussion: The Erasmian Pronunciation
12:38 Phonetical Differences Between Ancient and Modern Greek
18:34 Ioanna's Tips for Learners of Greek
20:15 Wrap Up
![Greece Special: 200 Years of Independence + Ancient Greek [SUB ESP]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mIYXzzX1aps/mqdefault.jpg)
![Greece Special: 200 Years of Independence + Ancient Greek [SUB ESP]](/img/tr.png)
![Ancient Greek vs. Modern Greek Again! (30K SPECIAL) [SUB ESP]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-_dg8rChWZM/mqdefault.jpg)
![เปิดบ้าน เปิด Supercar อั๋นโอกิ เคยเอา rolls Royce เเลกพระ องค์ละ 100 ล้าน l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FeGwJwXauZ0/mqdefault.jpg)
Do you like this content? You can now support my channel buying me a coffee!!!
www.buymeacoffee.com/ChihonTeaches
I sent you my little support. Keep up the good work
@@RetrokidBeatmaker Thank you so much!!!
@@ChihonTeacheslistening to you reading with this totally erroneous erasmian pronunciation was a painful experience.
@@user-vw1vf5cw7d I'm sorry this caused you pain. As you can get from the discussion, the Erasmian is not necessarily the most accurate rendering of Ancient Greek (certainly not for all the periods this language encompasses), but it's the one that is taught and mostly used in universities around the globe. Hence it's importance, because it allows you to communicate your research in Ancient Greek making sure others will understand you, regardless of their nationality and local accent.
Είμαι από την Αργεντινή και έμαθα τα Νέαελληνικά γιατί μ'αρέσει πολύ αυτή η γλώσσα. I know little about Ancient Greek and am used so much to the modern pronunciation that it is difficult for me to read with Erasmian pronunciation. I encourage everyone to learn Modern Greek, it's a great language!
I'm on it as well!
Γεια σου Αργεντινή ποδοσφαιρομάνα! Keep it going! The language will unveil in time! Χαιρετίσματα από Κρήτη!
Saludos de un griego argento hermano vamoo
You are better off. Erasmian pronunciation was pretty much a pedantic approach as to how Ancient Greek was pronounced to satisfy largely the phonetic esthetics of a germanic audience.
Ωραίος bro...το βασικό είναι να μάθεις νέα ελληνικά...τα οποία είναι μια απλούστευση των αρχαίων ελληνικών...λιγότερες λέξεις, λιγότερες φωνές, κάποιες διάφορες στις καταλήξεις, την γραμματική κτλ... Επίσης πιο απλό λεξιλόγιο... Αλλά εάν καταφέρεις να μάθεις καλά τα νέα ελληνικά τότε θα καταλαβαίνεις κ Αι αρχαία και θα μπορείς να τα διαβάσεις απ το αρχικό κείμενο...αυτά
Very enjoyable. This has been my experience as well. 😃
Ecce, Dominus Lucus est!
Eiiiii Salve Lucī!
ΧΑΊΡΕΤΕ
Γειά σας! Είμαι από την Ινδονησία και έμαθα την νεοελληνική γλώσσα στη Θεσσαλονίκη (AUTH)
Πότε ξα;
@@apollontv1078 τι εννοείς ; δεν κατάλαβα, πότε έμαθα την γλώσσα ;
As someone who speaks Greek at the level of learning it in a Greek home in Canada, I thank you for not sounding too "Scandinavian" as has been my experience of listening to ancient Greek 🤣
Hahaha, thank you! It would be nice for me to know what you mean with "too Scandinavian". This is the first time I get a comment like this on my way of pronouncing ancient Greek.
Που στον Καναδά μένεις;
Έχεις δίκιο! Είμαι Τουρκάλα και λέω ακούγεται σαν τα Σουηδικά 🤭
@@sevincylmaz2608 yasou sevinc. You written Greek is very good. You know Greek? It seem you do. Very good. Long time ago. 20-30 years ago the Turkish Gov instructed their Turkish tourist guides who took tourist around the ruin to say all these ancient monuments were done by people called pre Turks. When people would ask them what about the inscription written in Greek they were to denie that call them another race of people.
The Turkish tourist guides knew nothing of the Greek language or Greece
@@ChihonTeaches It is crazy to see that you a assumingly a spanish native speaker however I must also say that you indeed have swedish sounding aspects in your accent imo at least. I think most of it is because you make some pauses or let some sounds become a bit more stretched than normal, it is hard to explain.
I really liked the video btw! As a Greek native living in Germany and learning Spanish and being interested in ancient Greek this was very enjoyable to watch :D Hope some more collaborations will come in the future :)
Hello , I am a native Greek speaker. For someone that has a deep knowledge of modern greek it would be more easy and convenient for him to find the old classical frames and books and try to read them. It is very useful because you learn the philosophy behind the order of the words in a phrase , you get the real idea of words that have been changed in modern Greek , etc. A good start for this , is the few quotes of Heraclitus. Poets like Tileklos are a very trustworthy source for that. The upper level , I think that is all the magnificent works of Plato , Aristotle, Protagoras , Epikourous and of course , Thoukidedes. Unfortunately , I discovered that a bit too late..
The last two being Epicurus and Thucydides in English?
Αδερφέ, που μπορώ να βρω τα πρωτότυπα κείμενα με νεοελληνική μετάφραση; Όλα τα βιβλία που βρίσκω, ο καθένας γράφει το μακρύ και το κοντό του, γράφουνε ιστορίες άσχετες και διάφορες με την έννοια του κειμένου, παραθέτοντας τις απόψεις τους. Κανείς δεν τους το ζήτησε. Έχεις να προτείνεις κάτι;
in Italy you study ancient greek in the “classical” highschool, (as well as latin) and so you end up being able to translate Homerus from the original text
I would also recommend people to learn Modern Greek and after that Ancient Greek (if they wish) because it would be “easier“ to pronounce and write and understand the Ancient Greek. Students in high school that choose theoretical studies have to study very hard to get to a satisfactory level of Ancient Greek.
Not really.
I'm an Ancient Greek student who just this morning was pleasantly surprised to find Greek Wikipedia relatively easy to read. Great video highlighting the similarities and differences with Ancient and Modern Greek.
Thanks for your words! I'll make more videos about Ancient Greek in the future, so stay tuned.
You’re an Ancient Greek? Χαίρε, ω Πρόγονε φίλτατε! However did you manage to live this long?!
@@dorianphilotheates3769 I'm a student OF Ancient Greek!
ianianianian - Oh, so sorry! - my bad. 🙂
@@dorianphilotheates3769 When I am speaking modern greek, will I able to understand and read ancient greek ?
This was a very fun video to watch even as a Greek. You guys have a good chemistry on camera
Ιωάννα was very fun, such a sweet person. Reminds me of my own friends in a weird way, her pronunciation just feels like home
Είμαστε οι μόνοι σε όλη την Ευρώπη που έχουμε το προνόμιο
να λέμε τον ουρανό ”ουρανό” και τη θάλασσα ”θάλασσα”,
όπως την έλεγαν ο Όμηρος και ο Πλάτωνας πριν 2.500 χρόνια.
Δεν είναι λίγο αυτό. ΟΔΥΣΣΕΑΣ ΕΛΥΤΗΣ. We are the only tribe in europe that we call sea and sky using the same words as Homer and Plato 2500 ago. Ulysses Elytis
Συμφωνώ μαζί σου, απλά για την ιστορία σε μερικές Αρχαίες Ελληνικές διαλέκτους το "σσ" γίνεται "ττ". Ο Πλούταρχος αναφέρει περί της ότι κατά την εκστρατεία του Κύρου στην επιστροφή τους οι Έλληνες στρατιώτες μόλις είδαν την Μαύρη Θάλασσα φώναξαν "θάλαττα θάλαττα". Όπως και το "γ" γίνεται "δ", για παράδειγμα στο: Γη/Γαν+ Μήτρα -> Δη/Δαν+ Μήτρα -> Δήμητρα, και πολλά άλλα!
@@emiliosnic όχι εγώ Οδυσσέας Ελύτης.και το η στα δωρικά δεν υπάρχει είναι α Σπάρτα όχι Σπάρτη Τσάκωνας = Λακωναςο Αλέξανδρος στον Νεαρχο ( Κρητικός) μιλα παλαιοδωρικα η γλώσσα είναι ζωντανή αλλάζει μένει ίδια τι αυτούς που φεύγουν χωρίζουν από τον τόπο και την παίρνουν μαζί τους
Γενικά περίεργο γιατί καμιά απ'τις λέξεις αυτές δεν είναι ελληνικές
Ξεχωρίζει αρκετά από άλλες Ινδοευρωπαϊκές γλώσσες αυτό
@@axelexiscus8660 go back to grammar school one day you might end up reaching the truth. All composites are ancient Greek. Then you do not even think more than 500greek words even after taken up loans from sorts of Langs. Then you wish to be "european" by using words and derivatives as elevator (in french), paint ( in Persian) or even glamourous=( instead of) stupidity as an actual fitting word in the greek context applied due to the participants status of mind. As an idiotis you might need to lean that the cook in modern greek ( for instance, mageiros ) is a Macedonian word of Archelaos attempt to unify all Greeks even in Lang under the koini greek dialect ( Isocrates- Philip - Cimon- Homer sharing the idea ). ( Taught by prof SC). You need schooling up to 20 years just to finish Grammar
@@nezperce2767 Έλληνας είμαι βρε σούργελο, την ξέρω μια χαρά την γλώσσα μου
Το Θάλασσα/ Θάλαττα και Ουρανός/Ωρανός είναι λέξεις που οι πρώτοι ομιλητές των ελληνικών δανείστηκαν από τους πληθυσμούς που ζούσαν στον Ελλαδικό χώρο πριν από εμάς, κάπου το 2100 π.Χ
Ψαξτο αν θες, «προελληνικές ρίζες», θα βρεις και το «άνθρωπος» εκεί
This is very interesting. I understand that Shakespeare as it is pronounced today is unrecognizable to how it was spoken in Elizabethan times. Some of the jokes and rhymes only make sense when you use the original pronunciation.
Yes, this is also true in Spanish (my native language). Transitions are normal, so it's not surprising that after so many years they look like two different languages, despite having the same name.
@@ChihonTeaches My grandmother studied Old English as a foreign language and it certainly is. It is closer to modern Icelandic than to modern English. Here's a sample.
Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
The first line of Beowulf.
@@andrew_owens7680 Ufff, yes, I remember having taken a glance at Beowulf and feeling immediately helpless, hahaha. For practical reasons, I stayed with present-day English, of course.
It's going a bit far to say that the English of Shakespeare's time would be unrecognizable to us today; it's perfectly comprehensible (there are many resources for hearing the plays and sonnets with their original pronunciation), it just sounds different. It's as intelligible to contemporary English speakers as the text is comprehensible.
@@andrew_owens7680 I’ve heard Hwæt translated as “So,” like just to introduce speech. Could you explain further your take?
Great video! Thank you for respecting us on this subject and having a Greek there representing us. To all of you out there who learn Ancient Greek, i want you to know, that our facial expresions which scream "noooo, please, i beg you, what have i done to you?😭😭😭😭😭" when listening to your Erasmian pronunciation doesnt mean that we dont appreciate deeply that you choose to learn our language. It's just that we can't withhold the natural internal outburst that we experience at that moment😅
This couldn't be more precise!!!
That's actually my experience with Greek people. I've been fortunate enough to be surrounded by them, and they always struggle with the Erasmian pronunciation. They simply can't understand what I say. However, they are still among my best friends in this world. Never confuse passion with hatred!
It's the same Language
Qué entretenido verte en tu faceta de youtuber Chihon! :D Lo poco de griego que sé lo aprendí a través de amigos y guías en internet sobre cómo leer el griego moderno. Al principio obviamente tenía la interferencia del español que me hacía leer las palabras más como mostraste tú al principio (auto como en español), pero cuando me familiaricé más con el griego al verte pronunciar así esas palabras tuve reacciones como las de Ioanna jajajajja ahora mi mente dice automáticamente "afto"
Jajajaja, qué bueno saber que entiendes mi sufrimiento (y el de los griegos). Yo llevo ya muchos años trabajando el griego antiguo con esa pronunciación, así que las bromas en mi contra no las pude evitar. Al menos ahora mi griego moderno ha mejorado un poco y ya puedo adaptarme si es que hay otros griegos conmigo.
Me pasa lo mismo. Al tener la influencia de mi idioma me lío un montón. Aunque con tiempo y dedicación ya me voy adaptando. ¿Te llevó mucho tiempo aprender? Yo pronto haré un año pero aún soy principiante.
Amazing and super informative video! Well done! :) :) Πολύ μου άρεσε, καλή χρονιά!
Σ'ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ! Καλή χρονιά!!!
''The man'' in Ancient Greek (declension) ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἄνθρωπε, τὸν ἄνθρωπον, τοῦ ἀνθρώπου τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ. ''The man'' in Modern Greek : ο άνθρωπος, , άνθρωπε, τον άνθρωπο, του ανθρώπου. So, many things disappeared, but what remained is just incredible. I know no other language that kept so much ancient stuff and diclensions, conjugations, etc.
What I'm saying all day..thank mate
Great video. Thanks for it.
I am not an expert in any way, I am not even a classics student, but I am Greek, and I think that some changes at least between the classical pronunciation that Erasmus recreated and the modern Greek phonetics, happened as far back as the hellenistic ages and probably definitely during the roman and byzantine times, which spans approx1400 years. So for instance, the readers of the new testament would be probably not very far from reading the koine greek like we moderns do.
Hi there, Chihon.
I hope you'll be very well. Also, very interesting video. I wanted say you that once I had the opportunity finding someone who actually was learning modern greek. She is a Dutchwoman that I met in a epistemology class. It was very interesting because I remembered that she was reading a letter from a greek friend she get, and she let me read some part of it. I could decode many words that i knew it because of my ancient greek classes. She was impressed, I remembered. There was a lot of words relating to philosophy that I already knew it. But, actually she does not tell me anything about the pronunciation. After a while, I realized that the pronunciation is totally different. Notwithstanding, I think knowing ancient greek is very useful if you want to learn modern greek, I would say from my point of view.
I hope seeing many other videos like this one.
Regards from Chile, Chihon!
Usually the modern language is simplified over the more ancient version, probably because languages simplify as they travel.
This is a complex topic which has been exhaustively treated in the scholarly literature. Still, there is no absolute consensus on exactly how the different forms of Ancient Greek were actually pronounced. What most people mean by “Ancient Greek” is Attic Greek: the formal, literary form of the language which was used in Athens during the High Classical Period - its “Golden Age” - the time of Socrates and Plato. But in reality, when we talk of Ancient Greek, we must bear in mind that we are in fact referring to an exceedingly complex language with many different forms and dialects which developed (and kept evolving) over a period of at least a full millennium-and-half before Plato, and for another thousand years after. What follows is an oversimplification, but these are my thoughts on the matter: Ancient Greek of the Classical Period (Attic) was certainly NOT pronounced in the same way as either Modern Greek or the Erasmic convention. Briefly, the broad scholarly view currently is that Modern Greek pronounces some things more correctly, while the Erasmic canon remains a useful tool for reconstructing the metrics and stresses of Ancient Greek, as well as for helping to approximate some of the phonetic values of the ancient language, particularly the vowels and diphthongs. Another way to look at it: our best guess on how an Athenian would have spoken his native language twenty five centuries ago, is that it would likely have resembled a strange phonetic hybrid between Modern Greek and Erasmic pronunciation. A fifth century BCE Greek would probably instantly recognize both pronunciations as some bizarre species of Greek, but he would certainly not have accepted any as the proper way of pronouncing his own native tongue. That said, it is important to note that the Erasmic canon is an artificial construct - a sort of “reverse engineering” for Ancient Greek - while the Greek of today is an organic evolution of the ancient Hellenic language. After the conquests of Alexander the Great (356-323 BCE), Greek gradually became the ‘lingua franca’ of the whole Mediterranean and the Near Eastern world. During the Hellenistic Age, beginning in the late fourth century (just a few generations after Socrates and Plato), a new “internationalized” form of Attic Greek, the Koine (Κοινή), which later became the language of the Gospels, came into use. Almost overnight Greek went from being a national language, spoken almost exclusively by native speakers, to an international language of culture, administration, and commerce spoken by dozens of different ethnicities spanning three continents. The whole process, and the particular mechanisms of precisely how this transformation occurred over such a relatively short span of time, is not fully understood, but it did. What is understood, is that this international “Hellenistic” form of Greek was a natural progression of Attic Greek; but during the course of its development and rapid dissemination the language somehow underwent a dramatic shift that altered its pronunciation; this, moreover, happened over the course of only about a century or two. We don’t precisely know what forces were at work when this linguistic shift happened, but as Greek expanded into regions far beyond the Classical Greek world, the form of the language (its grammar, syntax, morphology, phonology) gradually became more simplified; to use an anachronistically modern turn of phrase, it became more “user friendly” (perhaps partly as a means of accommodating the native phonology of non-native speakers). In fact, by the 1st century CE its pronunciation had already begun to resemble what we today would recognize as that of standard “Modern” Greek. When I teach Ancient Greek, I prefer to use the Erasmic pronunciation (for several reasons) but I always tell students that this is definitely not the way the ancients pronounced it; however, it is a more convenient way to learn the language if you’re not a native Greek speaker. At the same time, I advise my Greek compatriots to also learn the conventional Erasmic pronunciation because it does a brilliant job at explaining away many of the anomalies and irregularities of Ancient Greek grammar which often stump Greek students. To me, Greek is Greek is Greek: there is no “Ancient”, “Medieval” or “Modern”...it’s all Greek to me...such chronological delineations are just convenient historical constructs: the self-same language at different stages of life - just as a person is in a sense the same individual whether in infancy, youth, or old age. BUT I think it a good idea for native speakers of Greek to learn the language as they would a foreign one - ‘ab initio’ with the Erasmic pronunciation. Ancient Greek is a superb and intellectually rewarding language, but it is also fiendishly difficult to learn well. I was once of a different mind on this issue, but as a Greek and as a teacher of Greek, my current position is in defence of the Erasmic convention over the Modern Greek pronunciation. The reason is mainly this: I think Greek is hard enough; don’t complicate things further by squabbling over the authenticity of its pronunciation. Learn it the way the whole Western tradition has been doing it (with stellar results) for well-nigh six centuries; you can debate the finer points of phonetic authenticity later. I hope this helps clear up things a bit, at least the main points. If you’re planning on learning Ancient Greek, I congratulate you in advance: kudos! - you’re a hero! I also wish you the best of luck: you’ll need it...
Do you know that the Greeks have borrowed words from the Serbs?
Verica Cvetkovic - Perhaps. Examples?
I rather prefer to die than to use erasmian pronuncattion. Everyone, no matter who or why, who uses erasmian is regarded as hostile.
@@dorianphilotheates3769 Verica is trolling you. Greek is the mother of European languages.
I like your explanation here. Because Greek is a living, ever evolving, language, the best we can hope to do is examine it as through little incremental windows of time like "snapshots'. To make dogmatic statements about how it was pronounced over a broad spectrum is like an attempt to store fluid in a cardboard box.
A new version of this video has just been published!!!
Check it out here: th-cam.com/video/-_dg8rChWZM/w-d-xo.html
Before a voiceless consonant (i.e. where the vocal cords don't vibrate) you get af/ef, before vowels and voiced consonants (vocal cords vibrating) you get av/ev.
Thank you! Really enjoyed a lot!!
Thanks to you for watching!!!
I have a tip to share . Any word that is used to describe or contains liquid element and has a i (e) sound usually is written with ύψιλον υ (ypsilon) . For example υδορ (water) υδραυλικός (plumber) πλύση (washing ) κύπελλο(cup) ψυχή(soul) etc . As a matter of facts Υ,υ shape is creating a cavity that could hold water in it . We firstly get introduced with Y letter in Minoan times as an ideogram that describes liquid rain and so forth . According to Pythagorean philosophy the two horns of Y are symbolising two different paths . The one is virtue and the other one is wickedness. My English are kind of rusty also but i hope you got the greater picture
Beautiful, bring more studies.
Thank you!
I'm currently working on the next videos. I hope to upload them soon!
Lovely session, thanks from EGYPT
Plato's cave story. I got some parts of it from Chihon's read but Ioanna's read was much easier to comprehend.
That been said Chihon's accent is closer to the right ancient greek pronunciation while Ioanna's is like a modernized ancient greek pronunciation.
Ελ σισι? Σαλαμ αλεικουμ
Your such an idiot...his pronunciation was totally false...he knew that..ioanna corrected him and very politely cause he made a lot mistakes.......he can't even spell the ΕΙ or ΑΥ or ΕΥ or ΟΙ...but at least he tries..your an absolute ignorant expressing opinion for something he can't understand....cause ancient Greek is a foreign language for you mate but not for us...it's our mother language part of the language we still speak nowadays same words nouns verbs ext and please stop spreading bs
I recognisd it eventually because I knew the word "spileos" from modern greek. So that made me feel very clever.
Ancient Greek Language comprises more dialects, so the accurate way to say is "Attic Dialect", which is the one taught and studied in the universities and faculties. Along with the Hellenistic Greek, aka Koiné (κοινή = common, public).
χαῖρε. Me gustó el vídeo por la temática en sí, muy interesante. Te has ganado un suscriptor. Estaré al pendiente de tus otros vídeos. ἔρρωσο.
¡Muchas gracias!
Estaré subiendo videos en la medida en que tenga tiempo sobre griego y otros temas de interés filosófico. Te agradezco mucho tu apoyo.
Something strange happens when you study two related modern languages, you learn words and phonems that point to the ancient common language and you don't realize it until you pick up a text from the old language and you read it again after a few years. My native language is spanish and as I read passages from El Cantar del Mío Cid I had a smoother experience understanding it than I did when I was in highschool. for instance the word "Ainda" (Still) is commonly used in modern portuguese, while it was replaced by "todavía" in modern spanish. I know this because I studied a little portuguese in college. I often wonder if the same phenomenon happened to greeks.
Hi!
Thanks for your comment. That indeed happens a lot. If you study Latin, for instance, after reaching certain proficiency in it you start noticing that Spanish is FULL of expressions and roots that come from it. Many times some prefixes are lost, for example in "oscuro", where the prefix "ob-" from Latin dropped the "b" not many decades ago. Greeks have this same feeling when they engage in the study of Ancient Greek. You see many roots of very common words already working in the ancient version. However, although it is compulsory for them to study Ancient Greek, in my experience not many of them remember much of what they studied. But sometimes you are lucky to find an amazing and knowledgeable friend like Ioanna.
Y bueno, mi lengua nativa también es el español, así que te agradezco muchísimo por el comentario y el apoyo. ¡Que estés muy bien!
I have been through that process. I lived in Greece for 10 years and learned to speak and read it fluently.
I think one of the reasons why Greek pronunciation did not change much over the last twenty centuries is than the original texts of the New and Old Testament are being read in the Greek Orthodox Churches and Monasteries almost every day since then and we know how "conservative" are the priests and monks in changing orthography and phonology. Mind you, the Old Testament Greek is even older since it was translated from Hebrew to Greek in Alexandria and Jerousalem in 285 B. C. for the Jews of the then Diaspora.
The monks carried the pronunciation that they learned from the Greek communities they came froṃ They didn't learn Greek from 5th century Greekṣ
@@hmldjr which one is closer?.... 100AD or 1500AD? the monks have spoken greek with 'modern' pronunciation way before erasmus invented his own pronunciation using latin as a base
@@georgefournarakis9002 1500 AḌ 100 AD they weren't pronouncing it like they do today eitheṛ Whatś the optative tense how do you use participles in an ancient greek text what is the dative case. Ask the monks thaṭ. They don't know and neither do you because you don't speak ancient Greek and you don't pronounce it the same way eitheṛ
Well done guys! It is indeed a very hot debate, for all of us Greeks living abroad « suffering » every time we hear someone pronouncing Greek words (because they think we read modern Greek the same way) :)
well... if you live abroad, surely you aren't greek anymore...?
@@kurade1096 So, if someone, say, goes to study in another country, you think they stop being their nationality and just become whichever nationality they go to? Like, if say I go to the UK to study for a few years, then go to Germany to work for another two and then back to my home country, should I have an existential crisis? My,, God....Who am I???
@@kurade1096 ?
@@stephen5808 if i live in korea, my people back home won't call me slovenian no more
@@kurade1096 that's a strange idea. it's not like you travelled back in time to be born in a different country, you still are from the country you were born. if you were born in slovenia it doesn't matter if you go to korea or spain or whatever, you don't stop being slovenian, you don't become korean or spanish.
This is a super cool video!
I'm an American of Greek ancestry and studied modern Greek before any form of ancient and thus when I go to koinē (kini) or ancient I use the modern pronunciation
This makes absolute sense, since this version of Ancient Greek is closer to Modern Greek than Classical Greek (that of Plato, for instance).
@Chihon Teaches Well, koinē is close to both classical and modern Greek, it just tends to drop the obscure and complex parts of Attic
Bro, the Hellenic language has different conjugation of verbs then 19 century invention of new Greece or “ modern Greece” so be carefull with your advice !
Although i’m a native modern greek once you two laughed about “σπήλαιον" I IMMEDIATELY knew what excerpt it was from Plato’s Republic 😅
The text is from Plato, η αλληγορία του σπηλαίου το διάβαζα στις πανελλήνιες αυτό και πάντα ήταν το αγαπημένο μου γιατί συγκριτικά με τα υπόλοιπα κείμενα και ειδικά του Αριστοτέλη ήταν πιο εύκολο στην μετάφραση. 🙂💙🤍
This video it's great. It's interesting for me to notice that he pronounces English with British pronunciation, while her pronunciation is American. She reads Greek with modern pronunciation, while he uses the Erasmian pronuntiation. Amazing exchange of pronunciations!
I realize aswell that her pronunciation sounds as if she were speaking Spanish from Spain, with kind of retroflex sounds and a similar musicality. I'm a Spanish native speaker by the way. From Mexico. I teach Christian Greek in a seminary. Greetings!
¡Pero qué gusto leer esto! Sí, es verdad lo que dices, este video es un zoológico de acentos. Como comentario adicional, al ser también nativo de español (de Chile), mi manera de leer con pronunciación erasmiana es mucho más latinoamericana que la pronunciación erasmiana de los británicos. Al final del día uno trata de seguir el estándar, pero la lengua materna es siempre muy fuerte.
¡Un abrazo!
I totally agree. I am Spanish learning Greek and every time I go to Greece people think I am Greek. No matter how many times I say " δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί είναι από την Ισπανία " They still speak to me so so fast expecting me understand!!! It is so lovely. Gradually I am getting there
It's because greek and spanish languages share some sounds that other languages don't use. I am a native greek speaker by the way, and when I went to London with some friends the English people thought we were Spanish...
What was the deal with "Katharevousa". How different was that from Modern/Ancient Greek?
I am just starting to learn Modern Greek. I am learning things like egg is αυγό and is pronounced ov-go. What would I here talking with someone on the streets of Greece? Would I hear something more like ow-go? Or a mix of both? What would best be suggested to look out for in travel?
Thanks for your message! From the two pronunciations you saw in this video, Ioanna's is the one you will find in Greece nowadays. Mine is a reconstructed pronunciation of Ancient Greek applicable to the V century BC.
As for the word "egg", the pronunciation I've heard the most is "avgó" or "afgó" (the letter "a" pronounced as in "cat"). Sometimes it's hard to tell them apart since both consonants are formed in a similar way, by biting your lower lip.
8:56 Just to say that ancient Greeks did not use accent marks at all at the beginning (neither any other diacritics or even lowercase letters)... Accent marks started getting introduced after 200 BC in Alexandria and were intended for non-native Greek speakers/learners... By the way, people who use this "Erasmian" pronunciation(s) often fail to abide by stressing marks, when the stressing mark is on diphthongs. For example in 5:38 in the word Θαυματοποιοίς the stressing sounded as if it was on the last /ο/ instead of the last /ι/...
Exactly bro
Hello!
I address this point you are mentioning here: th-cam.com/video/z8gTz051euU/w-d-xo.html
Let me know what you think about it!
And diacritics where very much different optional enhancements to writing after that. They wouldn't become standardised and mandatory until the medieval period, by which point they had already lost their usefulness as far as I know
Very informative video! You're right that this topic is polemic, which is kind of unfortunate since it can discourage people from learning the language overall.
Also, I have a question regarding Greek. If I were to learn Koine Greek (specifically Biblical Greek) would I be able to read texts in Classical Greek? Or is the grammar/syntax entirely different and not possible?
Hello!!!
Thanks for your comments. Indeed, I agree that this polemic often discourages people from learning, since from the outside this lack of uniformity in the opinions looks like a mess.
About your question, I think the other way around is far easier. The grammatical differences between Classical and Koine are not significant (it's basically the same language), but I find Classical Greek far more complex in vocabulary and literary resources, whereas Biblical Greek is written in simple terms, which probably contributed to the spread of the contents within it. So, if you have Classical Greek training (that's my case), then reading Koine makes you feel really good because you understand almost everything effortlessly. However, I doubt that one would have the same experience the other way around.
Hello Chihon!
I got to admit now, Im deeply confused! :D
How did ancient Greek sounded? The way the native Greek girl is pronouncing them? Or the way that you are pronouncing them?
Thanks!
Hello!!!
Your confusion is completely justified. The answer to your question is tricky, because it's most likely neither! The way I pronounce and teach is a reconstructed version inspired mostly by Erasmus, and it is the standard way to teach Ancient Greek at academic and university level. We pronounce in this way as a consensus because we care more about the contents of what we read rather than how it sounds.
On the other hand, Ioanna's pronunciation is modern (and Athenian), which we know from many sources is different from that of ancient past. Now, to answer your question one must choose a specific date to analyse Ancient Greek. My pronunciation is closer to the Classical period (circa V-IV century BC), but we know that already in the Hellenistic period some changes in pronunciation started to occur. Already by the time of Koiné Greek we have something closer to Modern Greek, and this is even more the case for the Byzantine period. So the "correct" pronunciation that many in the comments desire depends greatly on the material you engage with. Which one do you prefer?
We speak English and Spanish in Gibraltar. From Spanish we understand WRITTEN Portuguese fairly easily, but SPOKEN Portuguese we find quite difficult to understand. What you say about ancient and modern Greek makes a lot of sense to me. I am trying to learn classical Greek. As. A rough rule of thumb it seems to me that if I try to pronounce the words with a ‘Spanish accent’ it works better. An English accent is dire, as it is in most Romance languages! Of course, there is then the fine tuning you speak about: breathing’s, accents, etc. What a very interesting conversation you have posted! Thank you.
Thank you so much for your comment!!!
I completely understand what you say here, since I'm a Spanish native speaker as well, hahaha. I also don't have any problems reading Portuguese content, but speaking is always something really different.
As for what you say about Classical Greek, yes, from Spanish the pronunciation is easier than from English, with the exceptions you mentioned.
Te deseo mucha suerte en tu aventura por el griego antiguo. ¡Que estés muy bien!
So I'm not clear what her answer was at the end, when you asked her if it would make our lives better for those of us who want to learn ancient Greek whether to learn the modern Greek pronunciation first, or just to read the made-up make believe pronunciation of Erasmus. I'm wanting to teach myself Koiné Greek, but am struggling with the idea of learning a make believe pronunciation for a language that I wouldn't then be able to go to Greece and speak with the people there. But then I'm also concerned that if I try to learn Modern Greek pronunciation, then I won't understand the lessons as I get deeper into trying to learn Koiné.
Any advice, please, would be welcome.
Hello!
There are lots of things that belong to personal preference here, I think. In this channel I teach Classical Greek, mostly, and although koiné is closer to Modern Greek than its Classical counterpart, there are still some pronunciation differences between the two.
I'm currently also learning Modern Greek, so I understand your struggle. Our brains want to think about them as the same language, but when the pronunciation issues appear, you notice the huge distance between both systems. What I do is forgetting that they are related. I learn Modern Greek as if I knew nothing about Ancient Greek, and I welcome the similarities as a pleasant surprise. When I keep telling myself that they are different systems (and they are), my brain takes new inputs in a less chaotic way.
Let me know if this helps. We can keep discussing the topic. Good luck with your language adventures!
@@ChihonTeaches Thank you. So as far as I can make out, I think maybe it might be better for me to study the Koiné learning it using the Eramus pronunciation because I have a feeling I might not be able to understand words or concepts as the professor gets deeper into the language. While it seems odd to me that we have to use some kind of a made up pronunciation instead of simply how Greek is pronounced today, I'm afraid that I might have to do twice the work just to keep from getting lost.
Does that sound reasonable? Or am I misunderstanding about the differences between the two (modern and Koiné)?
@@workinprogress9613 There's no misunderstanding, that is what I'm recommending. Actually, one of the main reasons why I teach the Erasmus pronunciation in my channel is because that's the way that most people use in academia internationally. Accurate or not, it has become the main currency when communicating ancient texts between scholars.
However, I assure you it won't be twice the work, as you say. At some point the similarities will kick in and you'll be able to place them in their respective pronunciations as needed.
@@ChihonTeaches Thank you.
Very enjoyable video. You make a good duo. I have a question particularly the ancient greek pronunciation. Can we be sure for that or is it only assumptions.
P.S. Ιωάννα είσαι κούκλα.
As you can see from the comments, it's a very heated topic. For sure when we are tracing things that happened more than two millennia ago, we must bear some inaccuracy in our estimations. However, I wouldn't say it's just assumptions, but rather a reasonable estimation. The thing is that in academia, the way I'm reading Ancient Greek in this video is actually the one employed by almost all scholars in ancient philosophy (accents aside, which come from our native languages).
There are good grounds to think that this pronunciation is correct, and I will address these arguments in future videos.
Happy 50k views!!!🎉🎊🎉🎊❤️❤️❤️
Woohoo!!!
I do not get the hunch. What do you mean by ancient Greek ? Classical Greek or
Koine Or both ?
Hello!
For this video, by Ancient Greek I mean Classical Greek. That's why we read Plato, which is IV century BC. The pronunciation I use is the standard one taught in academia internationally, and my Greek friend tackles the same text as a native.
Koiné is a later development in this language and is not one that I'm teaching in my channel yet.
Did the language change any from say, the time of the Trojan War, to the Hellenistic and then Clasical periods, or was it all just ancient greek?
Thanks for your question!
Greek changed massively over the years, and for this language all the eras that you mentioned had different features. Even within the same period you would have regional differences.
I'd say the main periods to understand the evolution of Greek are Homeric Greek (that of the Trojan War, as you say), Classical Greek, Hellenistic Greek, Koine Greek, Byzantine Greek, and then Modern Greek.
Thank you for your reply. That is really fascinating. So that means that Greeks from these different historical periods would have some difficulties understanding each other.
@@Mr.56Goldtop Yes, that's a likely outcome. The language didn't only change in its form, but also in its pronunciation. Still, there's a great number of words that have been excellently preserved since ancient times, which makes Greek especially fascinating.
I love Greek language. I read classical works in the translation in modern Greek.
So, let's say that we ignore all the sound evolution of English and we start to read English texts exactly as they are written ( or maybe according the Latin value of each letter)....can you imagine how English would sound? The same difference exists between modern and ancient Greek...When we Greeks hear the Erasmian pronunciation, it is like pronouncing English as it is written.... ignoring the great vowel shift of the 15./16. century of English...how would an Englishman pronounce a text of Shakespeare today? I think they would read it according the modern English phonetic rules... that's what Greeks do with ancient Greek texts....
In my latest video about diphthongs and breathings I address this issue of the pronunciation again. Do check it out: th-cam.com/video/95C-7iCCbRo/w-d-xo.html&t
I am 60 years and we did ancient greek for 6 years in highschool back in the late 70s We never used Erasmus pronunciation but the Modern Greek pronunciation !!! Nowdays Αβγό is acceptale as well !! Before 1977 the official language of the state was Katharevousa ( a kind of modernized koine ) and this was what they tought us in highschool !! . Then we changed officially to Demotiki ( the widely spoken way of Greeks ) !!
Don't bother about Erasmus pronunciation, it's not accurate. But neither modern Greek is 100% accurate.
Hello!
Thanks very much for this insight, it's always good to have these testimonies. In my experience in academia doing ancient philosophy, only Greek scholars sometimes tend to pronounce ancient texts with the Modern Greek pronunciation, but they normally manage to pronounce it in the Erasmian way. When in the video I said it is the standard way of pronouncing Ancient Greek, I meant that it is the way that scholars all over the world read the language. The only differences in pronunciation come from the accent each person has depending on their own native language.
Is β pronounced between a "b" and a "v" in Modern Greek similar to how it is pronounced it Spanish?
I would also recommend Lucian pronunciation for ancient Greek pronunciation as another commenter mentioned. Erasmian seems quite off. Specifically I have heard that ει was never pronounced as a diphtong but always as one sound.
I think this guy's pronunciation is probably less egregious to Greeks because he seems to be a native Spanish speaker.
In modern Greek the beta is pronounced like the "v" in French, which is a language that respects more the differences between "b" and "v". In Spanish, which is my native language, as you well spotted, we don't make much of a difference between the two consonants, but we recognise they are different letters. Sound-wise, it is the "v" in which you bite your lower lip.
Yeah, I also think Lucian/Koine is the best way to go when it comes to Ancient Greek pronunciation.
No, Spanish is still in the transition/lenition that took place over a millenium ago in Greek, with a few exceptions (below). Modern Greeks hear the difference strongly, to the extent they change the spelling of words pronounced the ancient way. So ancient κόμβος is Now spelled κόμπος to account for the unchanged pronunciation!
It's still egregious because Erasmian is incredibly outdated as an approximation of ancient Greek pronunciation. Reconstructed Attic already exists; use that instead of bringing pain to our ears with this meterless abomination that is Erasmian. I mean, if you don't find it to be an abomination from an aesthetic standpoint... sure, tastes are subjective. But it seems to me that the person who made this video is actually claiming that Greeks actually used to speak like Erasmus suggested, which is a historical _falsehood._
@@karlpoppins To be fair very few people can master a reconstructed pronunciation and mix features from different time periods. Honestly for the vast majority of people they should just go with modern pronunciation as it is way more available and less guess work.
Very enjoyable presentation. Thanks ! Btw., I am learning Modern Greek with no knowledge of ancient Greek, and I can say that is not easy with 5 different types of 'i' all sounding the same way. You just need to learn the way the words are written. I do not see another way (my own experience). Keep up the good work ! God bless you all !
Thank you for your comments!!!
I agree, the many iota sounds in Modern Greek are very difficult to understand, especially at the beginning.
In my case, I learnt Ancient Greek first and I have tried to learn Modern Greek from my Greek friends. Very often I need to ask them to spell a word so I can understand the Ancient Greek origin and only then I can incorporate that word into my vocabulary. So, who knows?, maybe some Ancient Greek may help you get through your Modern Greek adventures.
I agree with you. It is quite hard getting used to the fact of these combination of vowel plus all the unfamiliar sounds. Σιγά σιγά μαθαίνουμε
@@ChihonTeachescan you write what you read in Ancient Greek with Latin letters so we will know what you read and we can then conclude it it similar to modern Greek or any other languages?!
Curious: does anyone know how a Greek Orthodox priest, who was born & raised in Greece, pronounces the koine Greek when he is reading Scripture aloud?
They will almost always use the Modern Greek pronunciation. In fact, I doubt there is a single Greek priest who would switch to reconstructed koine pronunciation.
Good point, @@E45F678 .
Plato Politia from the Book The Cave of Plato (The Matrix Movie was based there)
As a Greek who is very interested in linguistics, the one thing I have to say to everyone learning the language is that the modern Greek have almost the same pronunciation as Spanish and the ancient Greek sound more like a northern language like Danish. I am sure you too have noticed that.
This is quite true. As a Spanish speaking native, I can confirm.
@@ChihonTeaches ¡Gracias por el corazón!
Un placer.
It is absolutely not true that Ancient Greek was sounding like a Scandinavian. The reason it sounds like Scandinavian is because of the Erasmian method that was clearly looking for a way to "describe" the language in a way that Germanic language speaking people could understand. Simply put, have you heard how a Greek person speaks English? If yes would you expect that is the way English is spoken? Obviously not.
@@polytrelaras1 Εγώ πάλι πιστεύω ότι βγάζει απόλυτο νόημα ότι π.χ. το όμικρον προφερόταν "ο" αλλά το ωμέγα "οο", όπως άλλωστε καταλαβαίνουμε απ'τα ονόματα των γραμμάτων. Ή ότι το ύψιλον προφερόταν όπως το γαλλικό "ου" στη λέξη "vu".
The general rule for pronouncing υ in αυ / ευ as [v] or [f] is: use the voiced sound [v] if the following letter is voiced (including vowels, nasals and λ, ρ), otherwise use [f]
In modern Greek, that is.
Ioanna is lovely. Hope to see her back again....If you do a round two of this (with her or someone else), could you talk a little more systematically about grammatical/syntactical differences, e.g., the way modern Greek forms the future tense, or the infinitive, in contrast to classical Greek? Also the loss of some cases endings. Of particular interest to me is to what degree a modern speaker of Greece can understand classical Greek word order. I believe modern Greek's word order has (like English) lost some of its flexibility.
I'll let her know! It would be great to do a follow-up video together.
Modern Greek word order is sometimes different than the ancient word order, but it doesn't sound too strange when you use the ancient one cause it still makes sense and CAN be used today too, it just sounds more formal in a way, if you get what i mean.
@@Kwstas_Vagias Thanks!
At first read my first comment..it's a little big..but whatever..and secondary..you MUST learn modern(meaning simplified greek) first and then go to ancient...like you first ride a bicycle and then a motorcycle...you don't even know to ride a bicycle and try to explain the way a motorcycle engine works and which components are better or easier to dismantle...guys..mean and ioanna could understand how I'm.telling that...:::ΈΛΕΟΣ mercy
@@apollontv1078 Hi. I've been studying Greek for quite a few years, starting in grad school. I began with Koine, which is simpler than classical Attic, but then moved on to the latter. I study it as a written, literary language primarily, not spoken, so it's different. I would like to learn to speak Modern Greek at some point. Thank you.
Interesting experiment. It would have been endlessly more helpful if you had provided a reference to the ancient source ab initio, together with a screen visual of the Greek text as each of you read: that way those of your viewers who can read Greek could follow your different pronunciations.
Thanks a lot for the suggestion. With time I'll learn how to add the Greek texts in a more aesthetic way. For now, you can still check the Greek text we are reading in the description below the video.
Chihon Teaches - So sorry; I completely missed the ‘perseus’ Greek text in your description. Cheers!
@@dorianphilotheates3769 No worries, it was not obvious, hahaha.
8:30 you are referring to the language dispute in Greece. Katharevousa (pure Greek) Greek v Demotic Greek (the Greek of the simple people). Accents were abolished in the 80s because they were mostly cosmetic with the way modern Greek pronunciation developed. Kavafis’ language was Demotic, with strong Katahrevousa inputs, which is why he was critiqued by poets (idiot modernists) from Greece eg. Palamas. I believe in poetry, the creator has the liberty of writing as modern/archaic as they want. Why judge?
in german "Y" sounds exactly like ancient greek. many english speakers maybe tempted to pronounce "System" as they would do in english but that would be an error. y is not like spanish/italian "i" but sound more like an "uei" (üi)
Just like y does in all of scandinavia
So whose pronunciation is closer to the way Plato spoke? Which way is right?
To the best of our knowledge, mine should be closer than Ioanna's. However, many Greek natives would disagree. The main difficulty we have with this topic is the lack of reliable sources to get to these sounds. We can just say this is the best we have, but for practical purposes it is best to stick to one way of pronouncing and dive into the Greek texts. In the end, we study Ancient Greek in order to read ancient texts.
@@ChihonTeaches Thanks, a very interesting video, cheers
Ιoanna s...and we have saved many songs with ancient Greek routes...their called hymns and also the VYZANTINE music which is the continuation of the Greek rap-sodies...
Erasmian is closer in some regards, whereas Modern Greek in others. Modern Greek pronunciation goes back at least one millennium and, with few changes, all the way till Hellenistic times (which is still quite different from what Plato spoke, even though they were separated by half a millennium). Erasmian is closer overall, since it recognises iotacism and some consonant features, but it is not our currently best estimate for Ancient Greek, and it is lacking a lot of crucial phonemic features, most notably Ancient Greek's pitch accent (you might be familiar with that if you speak or know about Japanese). You can find examples of the current standard reconstruction in the YT channel Podium-Arts. In a lot of ways this best estimate is more understandable for a modern Greek speaker, like myself, because its vowel qualities are not as exaggerated as in Erasmian (which pandered to Germanic language speakers) while also being more truthful to our current evidence.
Greeks are not eager to accept that our language sounded vastly different in Classical times because they essentially feel that our culture is being appropriated by Westerners. A large portion of my compatriots suffer from a sever superiority complex (which really stems from an insecurity due to our country's low status in the Western world), so they propagate historical falsehoods that seek to present modern Greece as nearly the same thing as ancient Greece (not that we aren't related to these ancient people, but we have changed a lot, too), as a means to create an identity for themselves.
That all being said, as Chihon correctly spotted, we do lack resources so even this current non-Erasmian reconstruction is not as secure as, say, Classical Latin pronunciation, which is incredibly well-documented.
TL;DR: Both are wrong. Erasmian is closer, but nothing close to it was ever spoken historically.
For Plato, the Erasmian is closer (Although not correct) for Plutarch, the Modern is far closer. Choose for yourself which one is right.
Μπράβο Ιωάννα καλά τα είπες..απλά πρέπει να καταλάβουν ότι πρώτα πρέπει να πάνε φροντιστήριο 4 με 5 χρόνια για να μάθουν νέα ελληνικά κ μετά από κει αν έχεις μεράκι τα αρχαία σε 3, 4 χρόνια δεν είναι κάτι δύσκολο..για τα βασικά τουλάχιστον..αυτά...συνεχίστε έτσι...!
Which are the 3 accents that Joanna is referring to ?
I think you're talking about the Ancient Greek accents. Here's an introductory video I made on the subject a while ago: th-cam.com/video/z8gTz051euU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=OcTzk9zuxk99dkju
If you're already familiar with that, here's a more advanced set of features about these accents: th-cam.com/video/vWtsmkykm7E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=-Gq3xgsmA9r4CdWo
@@ChihonTeaches Ah okay, I got what you mean.
What is the proper was to pronounce the Greek goddess Artemis' name? Modern way, traditional way, and ancient way?
[ˈaɾ.te̞.mis̠]
Pronunciation haven’t changed
Hello!
Thanks a lot for your comment. Your question is particularly interesting because it assumes that there is a "proper" way of pronouncing Greek. If you were to pronounce in the Erasmian way I use, the word would be Ἄρτεμις, which in sound is not easy to differentiate from its modern counterpart Άρτεμις. We could safely say that the word hasn't changed too much and its pronunciation is about the same.
However, that doesn't mean that one way of pronouncing is better than the other. In the case of Artemis, there's little to no change. But in other words the change of pronunciation is drastically different. Even across different periods of Antiquity the pronunciation was constantly changing. Therefore, which one would you say was the proper one? In my view, that depends on the period you are choosing and on the specific goals you have when learning any of the variations of Greek.
Can you pronounce ευοιωνος in the erasmian way?
I think, it must be εἰοίωνος /ei-oi-ōnos/
Μπράβο συνέχισε και κατανοώντας την ελληνική γλώσσα καταλαβαίνεις το δώρο των προγόνων μας. Ευχαριστούμε για την αγάπη και τον σεβασμό στην χώρα μου.
Σ'ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ!!!
I am Greek and I found the video so enjoyable! You are both very charismatic and eloquent. Btw, I totally empathised with Ioanna. It's exactly as she described. What a weird, uncomfortable feeling we get with the Erasmian pronunciation...
Thanks for your comments!
For sure, the Erasmian pronunciation is very polemic in many aspects, especially if you are a native Greek speaker. For better or worse, the Erasmian has been the way in which Ancient Greek has been taught internationally and it is therefore a useful reference when working in ancient philosophy or classical studies. Depending on our goal with the language we all have different perspectives about it.
9:50. I speak Turkish and studied a little Osmanlica (Ottoman language.) there is a good book about the “simplification called The Catastrophic Success
As a Greek I do understand the pronunciation issue in learning ancient, but what always annoyed me relatively indipendent of that was that we learn all the diacritics of the polytonic system without actually using them. We are never even taught what they do. So then what's even the point?
Charming!
Very interesting I had not idea ancient Greek was taught in secondary school nowadays.
One comparison for those who might know French also, is that the writing didn’t follow the phonetic evolution for etymological reasons. That’s why you have in French like in Modern Greek, many words for which when you just hear them with the modern pronunciation, you can’t spell them unless you already know the word. Such was not the case with ancient languages which had a spelling closer to their original pronunciation. In French, you have É, AI, AY or ET with the same pronunciation. In older times we all know it was pronounced differently and the spelling kept record of this. In Spanish and in Italian, people favoured another approach: they let the spelling evolve too, in order to catch up with the pronunciation. And that’s why among Latin-based languages, Spanish and Italian are easier to spell when being heard, while French fails on that point. To be honest, even in English, many words are spelled for reasons that were relevant during Middle English era, but are pronounced differently today.
One small point about the ‘upsilon’. In Attic and Ionic Greek, when Υ follows another vowel like Ε, it doesn’t really keep its [y] sound but rather takes a more ancient [w] sound - probably because the letter evolved from a Phoenician letter which was pronounced like this. The word 「ἐλευθερία」 would then be rather pronounced [eleʷtʰería]. But of course, the digraph ΟΥ has its special [u] sound.
I get the idea but technically speaking ancient Greek orthography was only fossilised in the Alexandrian times when the grammarians of the time (especially in Alexandria) opted for the Attic orthography ... but then Attic itself had a different orthography up to the times of the Peloponnese War when Athenians opted for the Ionian orthography. And even if Attic was a sub-dialect of the Ionian dialectic group it still had differences. Not to mention that most Greeks up to Alexandrian times spoke Dorian-related dialects including first and foremost Macedonian (note this), not Ionian. And you had also the Aeolian and Arcadian ones, completely different as well. To be noted today after lots of findings of the Macedonian dialect we know for sure that the development of Koini Greek came out of a mix of oral Macedonian with written Attic - it is not an accident that one of the easiest texts to translate from the 5th century BC for modern Greeks is Pella Katadesmos, a text written by a Macedonian woman, and rather a mid-lower class one it seems, during the last phase of the Peloponnesian war.
So that makes the idea that "ancient Greek orthography" was "historical" completely erroneous. We find very different orthographies between e.g. pottery annotations and classical texts of the very same period, precisely because while medieval Greek grammarians (often those nerdy orthodox monks! in love with their Classical Greek heritage!) tended to copy the ancient Greek texts correcting the orthography with the official one as it was established in the times of Hellenistic period, as said, in the cultural centers of Alexandria, Pergamon, Antioch, Seleucia, Athens, etc. This held true even for "Holy Texts" such as the Iliad and Odyssey. While medieval Greeks tended to copy these with their original language (capital sin to change a single comma!) still that was one altered during the 6tth century, 2 centuries after Homer wrote the Iliad by the Athenians who wanted "an official version" of it, and then again during Hellenistic times - words were not changed but the orthography of them yes.
The story of the Greek alphabet itself is very obscured by fossilised ideas about its alleged origins from the Phoenician alphabet. It is a nice theory and explains some questions but yet all is not clear since it was never verified archaeologically with Greek findings being both more ancient than the oldest Phoenician findings as well as coming from middle to lower-class backgrounds rather than the case of Phoenicians (oldest findings are in high-class items) and then earliest findings of Greek alphabet are simultaneously found all over the Greek world from Greece (oldest attest in Attica, the Dipylon vase, 2nd oldest, the Pieria cups, in Macedonia - please! LOL!) to South Italy (Nestor's cup). The very existence of multiple variants since day 1 rather points out to at least 2-3 centuries of development which gets us back to the 1000s BC a time when Phoenicians show no usage of the Phoenician writing (e.g. in Cyprus they brought no writing system and adopted the local Arcado-Cypriot syllabary, an earlier Greek Bronze age system)
La secillez y alegría de Ioana son encantadoras, y además tiene razón, cómo alguien no griego va a saber más griego que los griegos (y que disculpe Erasmo o los erasmianos), pero el griego antiguo debería leerse con las convenciones del griego actual. Por ejemplo, los tres acentos del griego antiguo son una dificultad agregada al estudio del griego que en los monosílabos equivalen a que en español se acentuaran siempre este tipo de palabras, ¿y cuál es la diferencia si no llevaran acento?
¡Hola!
Bueno, ahí la diferencia es tonal. En la práctica, cuando uno trabaja con griego antiguo en general se pasan por alto estos tonos. Sin embargo, en muchas palabras uno encuentra casos donde el significado cambia radicalmente si el acento cambia. Sacar los acentos sería aumentar la dificultad que per se ya tiene esta lengua.
Ahora bien, es interesante notar que la introducción de los acentos en el griego antiguo ocurrió siglos después del Período Clásico. Tocaré este tema en futuros videos, no te preocupes.
Fabulous conversation. As a Bible scholar, in seminary I learned Koine Greek using the Erasmus system of pronunciation, which makes a great deal of sense to me as a theoretical way that ancient Greeks might have pronounced the language, but historically we also learned that by the Hellenic period, the ancient Attic pronunciation was already beginning to evolve into the iota craze that exists today. I learned to pronounce it both ways in the end, because I was torn between the logic of both sides of the argument. In my opinion, Erasmian pronunciation has a much richer and fuller spectrum of sounds, and is generally more "pleasing" to the ear, but the problem with that is the fact that very few Erasmian Greek scholars can speak it or read it effectively enough to make it sound like a genuine language when they pronounce it. If you want to hear someone speaking Greek and also have it make sense to your ear AS A LANGUAGE rather than as a code for English (or whatever the scholars native language might be) then you almost always have to find a Greek person to read it, and then of course when you do that, they invariable pronounce it with the modern Greek scheme. So its a bit of a mixed bag really. The first problem I noticed about that, however is that it plays havoc with spelling, as you pointed out. If everything sounds like EE no matter how it is spelt, it really kills the point of having so many letters at one's disposal, not to mention, that Erasmus' scheme is SO phonetic, that even when one doesn't know the meaning of the vocabulary, he or she can still pronounce it correctly. No so with modern Greek. If you don't know the word, there is also a much lesser chance that you will pronounce it to the satisfaction of your Greek listener. But I digress, anyway, very interesting topic and so glad that you posted it here. Obviously I could talk about this subject for hours, but luckily for you, I will restrain myself :)
As a Greek the Erasmus system of pronunciation sounds EXACTLY like someone is talking in code and doesn't sound phonetically pleasing at all.
@@Kwstas_Vagias In my experience, I have found that very few people can do it properly. I have no doubt that to the native ear it sounds terrible. Much the same cringe that I feel when I hear a foreigner speaking English. I have known scholars (mostly native speakers of English) who have tremendous utility of the ancient Greek in terms of reading comprehension, but when they speak it, it sounds ridiculous. But I have little doubt that these same people would slaughter the sounds of modern Greek as well. If I put myself in your place, I can not blame you at all for feeling that way. If a native speaker of Greek for instance, were to approach me with a theory of what middle English sounded like, and started rattling off a Chaucer text with a thick Greek accent mixed in with an attempt to speak an "authentic" middle English accent, it would seem just as absurd to me, so I totally understand your objection. It would be interesting to know what Erasmus himself sounded like when he spoke it. Probably like a Dutchman trying to speak Greek. lol
@@TheMinisterofDefence Actually it sounds something like Finnish and really terrible in our ears.
@@TheMinisterofDefence Here is a Greek Speaker with the Erasmian pronunciation, you can visit his channel th-cam.com/video/MOvVWiDsPWQ/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Podium-Arts
@@thrakiamaria thanks for the link. I havnt watched all of it yet, but just in the first few lines i noticed what i would call "Scandanavian sounds" in his reading. It doesnt sound Greek to me either. It sounds like the native child of a Greek and a Norseman. I wouldn't call it really terrible, as you say, but if I were a Greek person, I would see your point. It does make me think that capturing ancient Greek pronunciation is a somewhat futile endeavor. Although to be fair, as long as the attempt is internally consistent , I really dont feel like any pronunciation system is a bad thing. But regarding Modern Greeks and their feelings toward this idea: Yeah I see very little point of using any pronunciation other than Modern Greek.
Gut, Mann. Gute Arbeit. Sehr hübsches Mädchen! I am also studying philosophy, nice to see you‘re trying to engage people and clarify so imp things. Viel Erfolg euch!
Every "i" version in modern Greek has not the same "i" pronunciation, but modern Greeks as native speakers do not realize that, thus adding in to the confusion by (and they falsely agree with) the non-greek speakers opinion. "I,ι" is high pitched, "Η,η" is more baritone (δασύ), and "Υ,υ" is more deep and round, somewhat the same as in ancient Greek but, but then we have to talk... about the Greek politics as well and then the whole story will be too long to tell here.
Very interesting. Made me think of the many parallels with ancient vs modern Hebrew (which I'm more familiar with). 1. Kids learn it in school as an almost-foreign language. 2. Schools, radio and high-brow institutions fight to conserve classic grammar and pronunciation (just like the Katharevousa experiment except we haven't thrown the towel in yet). 3. Israelis write without the diacritical signs and if asked to do so, will do it quite inaccurately. 4. But unlike Greek, there's no big difference between the pronunciation of foreign scholars and that of Israelis. (Allowing, of course, for national accents.)
Thank you so much for sharing this! Yes, I agree that your first 3 points apply a lot to Greek nowadays. The point of the national accents is also interesting, because in academia you find that everyone agrees on using the Erasmian pronunciation, but a French scholar will pronounce everything very differently from an English one.
I am trying to learn both Modern Greek and Koine Greek. It is my impression that Koine is in transition from Classical Greek to modern especially the vocab. As for instance the word for wine.
Indeed!!! Whenever I read Koiné, I always feel it much closer to Modern Greek than Classical (which is the one I read the most), but it is still a form of Ancient Greek. In Koiné, many words and pronunciations are closer to the Modern version, but to understand it it's still more useful to know Ancient Greek.
ευγε! ασμενος μοι ακουσαι υμων και δη και φωνω τω Ερασμιαν διαλεκτω. επιμενετε ποιειν κινηματογραφιας ωσπερ αυται. γελων θεωρω υμας.
διατι η μη την ερασμιαν διαλέξωλογιαν φερουσα ειπείν νομίζειν ότι ευκρινως επιτασσει ερμηνείαν...ενώ τοσουτως επροσπαθησεν απέτυχεν καθότι ού δύναται αντιλαβουσιν τοις βαρβάροις την χιλιετηρίδων συνέχειαν του Έλληνος έθνους και κατ ' επέκτασιν της αρίστης δωροθεούσης γλώσσης των
For what it is worth, I have been learning Ancient Greek as an anglophone, and have never learned the Erasmian system. Most of the books I have been reading teach the restored classical pronunciation and one teaches one particular restored koine pronunciation, but none of them teach Erasmian. It is no longer the default assumption (which is good, since it does not reflect the way it was ever spoken at any point in history).
In my latest video about diphthongs and breathings I address this issue of the pronunciation again. Do check it out: th-cam.com/video/95C-7iCCbRo/w-d-xo.html&t
I think the main distinction is that a Greek person is able to understand the context of every word, so they now when to accelerate their speech at the right moment, For me the way you read it sounds like you are isolating every word and removing tonality and expression out of the language. This is very common. when you compare how Italian or Spanish people read Greek, they read it more naturally because their languages have similar cadence. In pretty much every language accents are more and indication than a rule, because accentuation is very dependent on the context and Emotion and their use is more for the people that are learning the language for the first time. As example most Spanish people don't really use the tilde when they write, because it is already natural for them to localize the accent on the right spot, similar to Italians, we use it for writing formally thou, I think accents in ancient Greece were treated in a similar way.
Thanks for your comments!
Yes, I think you are right when you spot that my reading lacks a bit of emotion, since I'm trying to read correctly in the way I was taught Ancient Greek. My friend Ioanna, on the other hand, just approaches the words naturally and with the emotion you mention.
However, the comparison between Ancient Greek and Spanish, Italian, and even Modern Greek is not quite the same in terms of accents. Accents in Spanish (the tildes), for example, mark the stress in a word, but they can also be used as diacritics, to tell words apart that sound exactly the same, like "como" and "cómo", or "tú" and "tu". Those are four different words and we tell them apart in Spanish with tildes.
Accents in Ancient Greek, though, unlike its modern counterpart, are not accents of stress, but of pitch. I devote a video to this topic here: th-cam.com/video/z8gTz051euU/w-d-xo.html
Thank you very much for watching and commenting!
4:53 LMAO He sounds like Castellano! ahahaha 5:33
6:24 She says sorry and the guy is like a "that's ok boy you'are doing well move on" 🤣
Here some examples of their differences by an italian guy who study ancient greek at school:
1: the letter ēta (Ηη, īta, in modern greek) was pronounced as a long ē sound, not as an i sound
2: the letter gamma (Γγ) was always a hard g sound, it wasn’t an aspirated h sound as it’s today
3: the diphtongs “ει” and “οι” were pronounced as they were written, not as “i”, as it’s in modern greek
Edit: oh yeah, another thing.
4: the letter ypsilon (Υυ) was a frech u sound, or a german ü sound, it was like a y, but not quite, while today is just an i sound; also, this letter never had the “f” sound.
Then, the letter beta (Ββ) was a b sound, not a v sound
That's bs. I agree with u up to a certain point, but ei was simply not pronounced as written there is countless evidence and the y also was not a German Ü. Erasmus's pronunciation was simply aiming to make it easier for Germans to pronounce, I'm not saying it's completely wrong, in fact it's mostly wright. I would recommend watching a video of polymathy about ει, he explains it perfectly. much love to u GR❤IT
2 is just wrong
Καλῶς λέγεις, καὶ ἡ δασεῖα (ἡ ) ἐξεφωνεῖτο ‹ h ›.
Speaking as a native, that the only touch with ancient texts I had was those compulsory years of middle and high school, I never would've imagined that there's such a big difference between the two schools of learning them. During the first reading I simply thought that I had completely forgot whatever I was taught in school, hence I couldn't understand but a few words here and there. It really shows a difference in pronounciation philosophy. Very illuminating.
If you want to have a further shock, check the Greek text I left in the description below the video and try to follow the way we pronounce it. You'll have fun, for sure!
Just a reminder: the itacism was already present in the ancient koine version of the language (so already before Christ!). Proven by the many spelling "mistakes" in texts and presentation of Greek words in Latin. So from a historical point of view that is not really a difference. So yes, there is probably a difference (we have no audio recordings, only spelling mistakes), and no, it is was present for a long time. It depends on the period of time. So I understand why they pronounce ancient Greek in the modern way (actually Greek just pronounce it that way, because it is counterintuitive otherwise ?), but some things in ancient Greek just do not feel right when you pronounce it the modern way. Like the word βῆκος in a story of Herodotos that would be pronounced as "viekos" instead of "bèèkos": a child has been raised by sheep, and one morning he starts saying βῆκος, the sound of sheep. "viekos" would sound like a crazy sheep ;-)
They shouldn't have a choice. It's part of their history and who they are. Kudos to the government for making it compulsory.
I'm not sure, but did you pay attention to vowel lengths and pitch accent? Curious that you read theta, phi and chi as fricatives rather than aspirated plosives.
UPDATE Given I'd have written spelaion with an epsilon but she said spileon, I guess at least that vowel quantity wasn't exactly right :).
Hi! Since this was more a conversation than a lecture, I tried to plough through those details for the sake of conversational fluency. However, I'll touch the topic of vowel length in a future video. Stay tuned!
Dabgerously simplified approach.... Even in modern Greek we have diffrent pronounce for diffrent written i but most of Greeks don't realise it because they speak without thinking of it. If you are a native speaker and try to concentrate you will realise that diffrent i sounds diffrent with slight but distingtive diffrences.
This is very interesting. In what regions of Greece do you notice these differences the most?
@@ChihonTeaches It is part of the official spoken languadges and more distinct in local dialects. Basicly even if a foreigner speaks perfect Greek you can still know he is a foreigner because all th ι and ε sound the same....
As a follow up to my previous comment, you might find this interesting:
th-cam.com/video/-BvKpk7SUrQ/w-d-xo.html
Archaeology of the last century has uncovered many papyrus written by soldiers to their families. These typically have spelling mistakes confirming which vowel sounds had converged at that time. This convergence was largely due to the nation building (dialect merging) of Alexander the Great. The conclusion is that Erasmus would be unintelligible in New Testament times. And with the exception of the Koine Greek for you (plural), a modern Greek speaker would do much better for understanding sounds of words, though there are some issues to do with grammar, false friends and some changes in vocabulary.
Your accent is flawless in English. Unfortunately I cannot comment on the ancient Greek hahaha
It is amazing how people base their pronunciation not by what they hear but by what they read.
She said that her name is Dzho-ah-nah, but you continue to call her Yo-ah-nah. That is because in your language "j" is pronounced as "y". And you cannot help but pronounce not how you hear her say it to you, but how you remember seeing it written.
In some cases, people may base their pronunciation on what they read, but in this case, something different happen. We Greeks when we speak english, often "translate" our names to the closest english "equivalent". So when Ιωάννα (Yo-ah-nah) introduced herself, she said Joanna, which is more or less the equivalent english name. But obviously Chihon knows that her name in greek is Ιωάννα, (plus he kind of speaks greek), so he called her Ιωάννα (Yo-ah-nah) not because of what he read, but because a Greek friend (or a a friend learning greek) would call her like that. Going back to your initial suggestion (how people base their pronunciation not by what they hear but by what they read), makes me think of how the Erasmian pronunciation makes a foreigner who listens ancient greek, be able to write them down, even if he/she doesn't know the words in the first place. I guess that this somehow facilitates learning to read and write at the same time. A German guy may find this to be efficient. I wonder though, if by applying the same principle to foreigners learning english, if they would pick up a Midlands' accent instead of Oxford's.... :-) me smiling at this crazy idea!
An aspect rarely talked is the musicality of the sentence. A great deal of the gramatical realtion between the words is made explicit when the locutor varies the tone and speed of his voice. This is natural for modern Greeks but not at all for foreign speakers. To greek hears the herasmean pronunciation sounds very monotone and monochord. The greek lisners feels a huge lack of information and tries to repeat the sentence in his head adding musucality in order to decypher the grammar.
The "erasmian way" was not lost in Greece, never existed actually.
It was as you said a convention that makes sense to germanic and romance speakers. Even the Greek words that survived through Latin does not agree with this pronunciation, I'm not saying modern Greek is right but I bet you it's closer than the erasmian
Greek Ross and Rachel over here 🙌
When we modern Greeks read ancient Greek, we do it using modern Greek pronunciation (just like Ioanna does), which is of course anachronistic. We don't sound like the ancient Greeks did. And of course the ancient Greek pronunciation has undergone many changes throughout the centuries, so a certain word would sound different in different eras.
A modern Greek does not need to learn an “Ancient Greek alphabet” because it has been the same alphabet throughout time.
The Greek of Hellenistic times was pronounced the way modern Greek is pronounced. We know this because the accents were introduced in 240 BC by Aristophanes of Byzantium to emulate the way Homeric and Classical Greek may have sounded before the aspirations disappeared and the diphthongs became iotacized.
So, by Alexander the Great’s time, Greek was pronounced the way it is spoken today.
We know this because the less educated Greeks of 2000 years ago wrote many diphthongs phonetically with iota or epsilon, as many surviving parchments attest.
Modern Greek is a direct continuum of the ancient form with all the natural changes sustained by a living language. Actually, it is the only living classical language in Europe, unlike Latin, which is dead to Italian, although Italian and the Romance languages evolved from Latin.
Good presentation, kids!
If the accent had changed, then why would the diacrìtics even be used? It really doesn't make sense to me. Also, I don't know about inscriptions, most likely ⲉⲓ ⲁⲓ̀ and the like had already changed, however we do know from several sources, mostly transfers of words into other languages, that some futures had not evolved yet. Think for instance of greek names in Latin, during the Roman rule such as Aenias, Cepheas, whereas with modern pronunciation it would be Enias and Kifeas. So to say that Alexander pronounced greek the exact same way as Nikos from Thesaloniki is quite a stretch, at least from the knowledge that I, currently have
@@user-bv7zo6vd4m We have ample of evidence from Hellenistic times when many speakers of Greek, whether Greek or foreign, use single vowels in place of diphthongs , like Nilus instead of Neilus (Greek Νείλος) by the Latins, etc.
This attest to a closer association between modern Greek and Hellenistic koine than with the perceived pronunciation of classical times.