Character Analysis: Kreia Explained (KOTOR 2)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2016
- A character analysis on my favorite character ever. Please note Kreia's motivations are very complex, and it is likely I will not have covered every leaf possible.
Kotor 2 is one of my favorite games, you can get it for $9.99 on Steam. Make sure to also download the TSL RCM and M478 mods.
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nerdslayerg
Shout outs to suicune2001 on youtube for the Female Lightside Exile clips. Please see his/her channel for a compilation of Kreia quotes in game. - เกม
This is definitely a video of mine I want to redo, once I get a proper editor and find the time. Because I dislike the quality of it, and know I can do it much better!
+I. Th.
well the force does have an influence over the people of the star wars universe, the whole "it's not luck, it's the will of the force" thing that they say in the movies, it's not a believer thing, it's probably the truth, a lot of shit happens because of the force always trying to strike a balance between the dark side and the light side. Free will might exists but it's still hindered by the influence of the Force, and Kreia really despises that. And her plan to "deafen" the Galaxy to the Force, would've probably worked if she had been able to kill the Exile in their fight at Malachor, that way everyone that would be able to survive such an event (since we know that, especially among force users, there are many that would be unable to live without relying on the force, like in the case of the Jedi masters that Kreia cut-off from the Force) would finally be free from the grip of the Force.
While Kriea is an interesting character to watch, the delivery by Sarah Kestleman is masterful, I do believe everyone has overhyped what is clearly a broken hag. To me she comes off as someone who is bitter by being betrayed and kicked out of every group she joined because of her opinions not meshing with the collective. (insert obvious reference and or analogy here) Based on how she behaves, one could interpret it all as a grand quest to desperately show her Jedi peers that she was right, despite the fact that most of her students have been failures. In fact, one could argue that everything wrong with the setting in Kotor 2 is her fault- whether directly or indirectly- mostly indirectly but still, the fact remains that her influence has caused the galaxy's current plight in some capacity.
To me the most important moment in Kotor 2 is the confrontation on Dantooine. The player either gets "answers" from the council or walks to find an empty chamber. Regardless of the outcome, Kriea is ultimately dissapointed. In lightside players because at the end of it all, the player simply cut themselves off due to being afraid- sorta like the revealation of it being "Oh, it was really this simple, after all this time, it was just something as simple as fear," Again, Sara's Delivery is masterful, in a brief moment could could almost get the sense Kriea was about to chuckle over the whole thing. Another point about her disappointment, when the Jedi refuse to change their mind and shower the exile with accolades and praise, she realizes she is never going to get their approval or in her eyes "Make them see" and thus, salavages the situation by one-shotting the council with the ability to cut them off from the force.
(As an aside, i think this plot element was stupid considering that this technique could have solved a great many problems in setting but hey, the moment was excecuted so well the people often forget about details
Now, the Darkside version Kriea is also disappointed, because once again she was robbed of her sense of satisfaction. She wanted to see the Jedi proven wrong, she wanted to be in the right, but ultimately she looks upon yet another failed student standing in the center of the empty council chambers. With a faint desperation in her voice, she asks the player character, "I must know if by killing these jedi have you found a measure of peace." When the player ultimately says no, Kriea snaps, declaring the player to be a failure.
Something interesting to note, the exhange between Kriea and her obvious paralell in Atris is aguably the most poigniant to her character. (Kriea being a compulsive liar aside, I think she had a degree of self awareness when she told Atris "Unlike you and I, there is a chance that one may be saved, the one you cast out" "It is such a quiet thing, to fall, but far more terrible is to admit it."
At the end of the game, it becomes clear to me that she has a death wish. In my mind, she is far more concerned with having the player be everything she wants them to be, even if it means breaking them into a blank slate. I always did find it wierd how this Woman who endeavoured to destroy the force doesn't seem to care after being defeated. Instead, she seems proud, happy I daresay. If the player says they want to save her, Kriea responds with, "Save me? You already have! By killing me here, you've rewarded me more than you can possibly know."
I do believe she says this line no matter what alignment, but the fact still remains that Kriea's motive was more silencing the ghosts of her own past rather than some philisophical task. As a Dark side player, you learn to not be the gaping hole in the galaxy that Nihilus was, nor become the mindless shell that Sion became. Moreover, in traditional sith fashion (despite her protests that she isn't Sith, yet keeps to many of their traditions anyway) you ultiamtely succeed the broken hag and silence the last ghost of your past. As a light side player, you become a Jedi as Kriea wanted them to be. Even though she constantly chastises you for charity and selflessness, you ultimately remain true to yourself no matter what. (If you want you could really see Kriea as that university professor who wanted a student that wasn't a herd animal despite most the population clearly being herd animals.)
I could have done a youtube video myself on this subject, but I don't really have the enthusiasm I used to. I did want to post this because I do feel that Kriea keeps being made into more of thing than she really is. This also goes to say that Chris Avellone might not have been entirely self aware when writing her ether. It is also fair to say that, like Gandalf in Lord of the rings, she treats the setting like her personal Doll house in that there is no philisophical counterbalance to her nor keep her in check in any capacity.
As much as it pains me to say this, but, If Jolee bindu was brought back for the sequel, Kotor 2 may have very well fallen apart. Anywho, hope all of you have a nice day, hope you've enjoyed my rambling.
nerdSlayer apart from you talking way too fast it's not bad.
Kreia isn't an existentialist, because to her the question of existentialism is solve, it is dialectic. Wich is the next step. Go read Hegel.
I doubt that kreia philosophy ignore determinism.... Like all existentialist often do....
One of the most complex and well-written characters on every game.
Basically, her character was downplayed because not everyone wants to think. lol
Her character was downplayed because the over all video game.....was plagued by bugs and a rushed ending.
Her character is downplayed because her philosophy is not new and she constantly nags you about it. Killing her at the end of the game was satisfying, because I disproved her gay philosophy by becoming more powerful than her.
@@comicsans1689 To have fallen so far and learned nothing...
FACTS
"For someone who hates something so much, she spends a lot of time obsessing about it." Isn't that the very essence of hatred? the fact that you are obsessed with something. Otherwise, it wouldn't be hatred, it would be dislike or even indifference.
She is one of my favorite characters too. I think alot of the success of Kreia can also be attributed to her VA Sara Kestelman. She did a good job making her sound Cryptic yet wise too.
That's a good point, Kestelman did an amazing job. One of the more iconic voices.
Kotor & Kotor 2 voice acting is today still one the best of the entire history of video game.
Both of your videos on KOTOR 2, have lead to me replaying the game. I just wanted to thank you, as with all of the amazing mods available for it, I was able to rediscover why I loved it.
Awesome, that's probably the best compliment I could get.
Kreia is space Nietzsche
David Witmer this
I don’t think Nietzche would approve of turning away from power.
@@kettlemagic spider
This is the whole story of KOTOR based on deduction.
Kreia realised the threat of the True Sith was out there(beyond the OutterRim,the Sith Empire she talks about).So she needed to do something as she thinked:
1) the Jedi couldn't stop them because the 'True Sith' were too strong in the dark side and mercy with all stuffs of ligth side are useless against them
2) the Sith couldn't stop them because the Sith would be driven by the Force to serve the True Sith.So eventually join and becoming a new True Sith.Remember when she choked Visass (Rigth before the trial of Exile,only in some videos appears).Vissas:"But that is not the way of the Sith,rigth?"."You,from all of us know nothing of what it means to be Sith".
So she trained Revan.Gave him a clear purpose and a clear goal, to defy the Dark Side while using its' strength and create a strong, powerful galaxy that could fight them. So far so good. That went away when Malak - who had recieved none of Kreia's self-determination classes - betrayed Revan, but by the end of things, at least Revan had been salvaged. Remembering his purpose, off he goes to uncover this threat of the True Sith.(He went to OuterRim,search for TrueSiths).
The second part of Kreia's plan - to use Malachor V as a training ground to create those who could 'drain' the Force, the Sith Assassins you meet who become strong when fighting those strong in the Force. These are the 'secret weapon' against the True Sith.
But she is unseated when Darth Nihilus (who is either a man who completely mastered this technique or a spectre who is the embodiment of it)drained her of her power and her apprentice, Darth Sion - who had totally flunked Kreia's self-determination courses - cast her out. The Sith Assassins are turned towards destroying Jedi and Kreia's plans are in tatters.
So she becomes nothing ,knowing that the end is coming but unable to really do anything about it or regain her position, until she meets the Exile.Linked to him, she regains her power as he does, and she tries to train him to be able to defeat Nihilus, allowing her to retake Trayus Academy and get her plans back on track.But eventually, she overhears what the Council have figured out, and what she never actually realised - that the Exile is not just a Jedi, but could be the death of the Force. More, HE is proof that without the Force, the galaxy can survive.
Bingo... all her teachings, all her beliefs and all her plans are suddenly changed by this. If she can break the Exile to her will, she will then have a weapon that can destroy the Force forever - allowing the galaxy to find its' own destiny, and ending the threat of the True Sith - for without the Force, what kind of a threat can they be?
ABOUT COUNCIL AND JEDI:It's suggested somewhere that all Kreia did was show the Jedi, directly, the pain and horror the Exile carries with him, the full pain and horror of Malachor - and because the Jedi Masters are unable to seperate themselves from the Force like the Exile did - because they're too 'light-side' and too dependent on the Force, they die. In my own opinion - the Jedi Masters are dead not because Kreia has drained them, but because they've been exposed to the wound in the force that is Malachor. Perhaps Kreia was the conduit, yes. But I don't think she took their powers. She's not like Nihilus and the Exile, she has no 'hunger' inside her to feed.This proves, to her, that they are weaker than the Exile in that respect.Kreia to Council:"She brings truth,and you ignore it?What arrogance! ".
WHY KREIA BETRAYED THE EXILE?Kreia stopped coddling the Exile the moment she became powerful enough to stand on her own against Darth Sion. That, I feel, tells me that she was clinging to him for as long as she needed him to survive, to allow her to regain her power through him - and once she's powerful enough, she can begin to try to test him to destruction and see if he really is the one she needs.
ABOUT NIHILUS: Nihilus drains the life and the force from those he consumes. He feeds the wound directly because he IS the wound, in the same way as the Exile is the wound. Kreia only acts as the conduit to the wound (through her force blind with the Exile) - leaving the Jedi Masters lifeless, but gaining nothing herself except the satisfaction of having proved her point.And yes, Nihilus could be used, but he is out of control - and Kreia cannot bring him to heel.
ABOUT ATRIS: I'm sure, Kreia just wanted to make sure she knew where Atris was and could go back to her if it was needed. Atris was her 'bait' to get the Exile to Telos and defend it against Nihilus - as she'd already managed to 'arrange' it that Telos is where Nihilus would be. She knows there's a history between Atris and the Exile, and she's prepared to use that.
However, when everything changes and she realises what the Exile is capable of, then Atris becomes more than a motivation to get to Telos, she becomes a test - Kreia uses the history between Atris and the Exile to turn Atris to the dark side., or at least reveal that was the way she was going all along. From here, one of two things can happen:
1) The Exile will win, Atris will tell him/her where to find Kreia. Another part of the Exile's past is resolved, allowing him or her to look to the future without the distractions of the past - and the fact that the Exile can defeat Atris is more proof that the Exile is the weapon she needs. With luck, the Exile will defeat Nihilus next.
2) Atris will win, and will either spare the Exile or kill him. Either way, it doesn't matter. If Atris could beat the Exile then he wasn't the tool she needed after all - she'll have to figure out a new way to defeat Nihilus, clearly. And Atris will come to Malachor V, which will give Kreia a new apprentice to work with in an attempt to create a new 'Revan'.
And, if he truly proves strong enough to defeat her, then he has come so far that even she cannot subdue him - which makes him not just a weapon in her hands, but a free man who could yet turn things around. In this case, Kreia will just have to have faith - not in the Force, but in the Exile himself. I believe she wished to find a way to survive without the Force, a way to depend on herself as a person, and the strength in that. She saw that in the Exile, and wanted to understand it and possess it. And she loved it.
To sum up::I believe Kreia is tryig to unite Sith and Jedi under a new Code,one Code that would TRULY represent the Force;she wanted to be a pioneer,and a Galaxy saver by negating what Malachor 5 brought..chaos and extinction of all Jedis
Amazing summation!
Thanks man ! Cant belive some people are still excited about KOTOR after all those years ^^
Tufisi Radu I'm not excited about KOTOR, I'm excited about Kreia :))
bine boss :))
amazingly and coherently put together, thank you very much indeed!:) ..she was quite someone, wasn't she? Playing god, nearly, or something like that. I always viewed her desire to destroy or at least somehow alter the Force as an attepmt to break fate itself, the limits we must blindly follow and respect..and despite loathing it, somehow still, illogically, love and embrace it. I have seen characters that spoke to me directly, but I've never had anyone show me what, well, I can potencially become (if I allow myself to philosophise). If this isn't the height of art, I just have no idea what is. And that's why people still care about Kotor, and Kreia; much like they care about let's say Shakespeare. It's just...true. And transfixing.
I think what Kreia/Avellone wanted is precisely what she told. To prove that her teachings are right, to win over Exiles/players heart and imprint her understanding of the force on it. Exile is a wound in the force which allows her to defy it and player is unaffected by in-game fate/force so he can do what he wants. Exiles greatest strength is her abilities to form bonds with others. I think Kreia hoped that Exile would become what she and Revan couldn't. Not only a teacher or a great leader, but both. Her unique combination of traits would make her a perfect candidate to form a new order, the one that would be based on Kreias ideals and her philosophy. The one that would abolish the tyranny of the force/fate, liberate the galaxy and everyone in it.
So if you as a player though at some moment "damn, shes kinda right" - shes already won.
Kreia is a very "read between the lines" character. She had a lot of hidden motives and did a lot of contradictory things.
She pushed Atris to the dark side to show the Exile how the mightiest can fall. But she was also trying to prevent Atris from creating a new Jedi order using teachings corrupted by the Sith holocrons.
She kills the other Jedi masters when they try to take the Force away from the Exile again but if you play the dark side path and kill the Jedi masters yourself, Kreia will be angry at you and tell you that she didn't want to kill the masters, she wanted to defeat them by proving that her teachings were right.
She says she hates the Force at the end, but at certain points in the game, she talks about wanting to create something better than the Jedi order. And she tries to teach the Exile about the Force and the Jedi seemingly so the Exile could create his/her own order.
KingOfMadCows If you play with the restored content Mod. it was Kreia that pushed for the exile to be exiled. She told Atris to push for her/his exile. I played it for the first time I was like wtf....and my mind was blown.
CuteGallifreyian
what else that mod had?
Sesshounamaru the cut HK factory. A Kreia and Visas lightsaber sparing lesson, Crew being knocked out during Visas entry fight, Red Eclipse scene extended on Nar Shadda. An Atton and Sion fight at Treyus academy winning or losing changes the plot some. Your friends being captured and imprisoned on Malachor V. A Jedi padawan on Dantooine stealing. HK helping out Bao Dur remote with the reactivation of the mass shadow generator and confrontation with Go-TO. I think there are some other things as well.
I like extended Enclave Mod which adds more dialog with Jedi Masters and your companions. Additional dialog with Kreia with DS. Also downloaded a reconstructed M7-48 planet, there are mixed reviews on it but it's not bad.
CuteGallifreyian damn i must get KOTOR for pc now... thanks
Don't forget they also cut out an idea of Atris becoming darth traya. She was already designed in a Darth Traya costume but of course that was sadly cut. Also if anyone is interested I highly recommend you check out the new remake of KOTOR being worked on by Apeiron! It's being done in unreal engine 4 and looks gorgeous. The company does streams quite often and it looks to be amazing. If it does well perhaps we can expect a KOTOR 2 remake to be done after! You should check it out!
I do enjoy the bit of honesty at the of how Kreia shaped your own worldview. No matter if she’s from a video game, it attests to the power of fiction and how it can direct a reader or player of viewer to a new philosophy. Off topic but for a lot of people in high school and middle school (which is the case for me), I think that’s why games like Deus Ex will hold sway: because it gave us truths and views we certainly needed to be exposed to and that are rarely unpacked in games.
Anyway, well done, Nerdslayer.
Excellent video on one of my favorite characters in all of SWs. Kriea is one of the primary reasons why I enjoy KOTOR2 so much.
YES!!! SOMEBODY FINALLY DID THIS VIDEO!
Kreia is the best character in the SW universe.
Unfortunately, the suits at Disney don't agree.
Some of them do actually. Notice how they try to bring back as many things the The Old Republic era into Rebels for instance
She's cool, but Chewie, Zalbaar, and Hanharr are the best.
An amazing insight into this character! She's always been one of my favourite characters because she seems so complex. Also she's so quotable haha great video!
Kreia is... Bae-ia? She would likely kill me for that.
Also god, yes, she's amazing. Sara Kestelman was such a boss. Best Star Wars character, ever.
"Apathy is death" might not be something Kreia would agree with, as odd as that may sound. Papito Quinn has a good video on it, basically the vision of Kreia in the tomb might be the tomb speaking, not Kreia.
Regarding the "apathy is death" statement: remember that was part of the illusions from the Sith temple, so we cannot confirm if that statement is truly part of Kreia's character
She says it again at Malachor. So not true. She says apathy is worse then death, because at least it feeds the worms and ground.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss Is that additional statement supposed to be what she said at Malachor? Because she actually said that directly after "apathy is death" and I've beaten the game multiple times and have never heard her say it at Malachor.
Kreia in many ways reminds me of Jolee Bindo, only with a less optimistic view on the current state of existence.
Basically. Jolee Bindo is more of a "neutral good" character, who does good but off on his own away from the Jedi Order. Meanwhile Kreia would be more "Neutral Evil", where she doesn't mind using force if she believes it teaches you the right lesson.
I prefer how Jolee always posed those rhetorical questions and let me think about it for myself.
I entirely agree with you on... pretty much everything. Like you, her philosophy helped me to have a more distant look on concepts of morality in my teenage years, to look at things from a different perspective. I still hold a very different view from her, but I would have likely come to understand and establish my personal understanding a lot slower if not for her. She's brilliantly written, greatly voiced. I always really loved her. I always found the star wars universe too... stupid. Too segregated into black and white to be relatable to our reality, but she broke that mold, she emphasized the grey areas, and pointed out the flaws in such extremism in both ways.
However, she is also a deeply flawed character. She realizes this, and tries to overcome her flaws through the player character, to make them be something better than she could be.
Nice video. But I don't think it's as much a contradiction as t is nuanced. She doesn't hate the force itself, just how it seems deterministic. But the use of the force as a tool is in itself good. Her view on the force is nuanced like morality.
So glad you made a video on her! I love your other videos too!
Glad to see the best Star Wars character ever created getting the attention and analysis she deserves. Seriously good stuff, man
She's a great character, she should be cannon
They wouldn't allow it in today's PC World because it's so bad nowadays to have a woman go insane like Kreia or even be a good villain, just be an idiot like Phasma.
Such an amazing breakdown of her!! She is definitely a powerful persona
Dude, this was great! Always felt the same way about kreia but am not smart enough to figure out how to articulate these thoughts. this is just too great, you explained existentialism for the laymen and gave amazing arguments on how she represents it and her thought process just in general. you also explained her flaws in the best way as possible. you're fucking brilliant :)
I really, really hope the story of Kreia will continue to be told in future installments of the Star Wars franchise, whether that be through a movie, comic book or another game. She is such a brilliantly well written character, and my favourite in the SW universe.
well at the end Kreia, wasn't able to move past the jedi / sith archetypes . She gave in and became Sith . She reverted to Darth Traya . She might of hated the force but she wasn't strong enough to let go of the force . this really echoed the plight of alot of the chr's that Reven let behind. He moved on and they where stuck without a catalyst with out a guiding pathfinder to show them the way .
I really believe that if Reven took Kreia with him that she would of never would of sought to escape the force. That Keria loved one thing more than anything else , Power. Power was every thing to her ; power meant choice , and Reven was the living embodiment of power . He was able to choose while brimming with force energy .
While the exile was the embodiment of freedom .The exile was her second choice and she used him to destroy all the force bonds that she established over the course of her story . That how ever much she hated her former Sith apprentices , she was still connected to them . In the end she became Darth Traya so that the exile would kill her and separate her from the force forever . Which is especially ironic because the sith apprentice killing the master cycle . She never escaped the cycle , she used the exile to do it for her .
Her story is not one of existentialism but of her trying to gain freedom from the force . She's trying to understanding the Exile to gain his kind of freedom . Her talk of chooses isn't because her believes in existentialism , she don't really care about other people freedom to choose . In fact she takes away alot of people's choices . She only cares about one person's choices the Exiles , but only so she can gain the freedom from the force .
As the exile you could typically choose between light and dark, or the 3rd choice to say nothing and silence enrages Kreia , because she can't under your choices , she is trying to escape the bonds of the force to go beyond it to where she never could of gone. She constantly mistakes walking away with apathy . The ironic thing is that walking away from those light and dark false choices is all it took for the Exile to be free from the force.
Keria 's is ultimately the victim of the lies of freedom that both the jedi and the sith told . And the Exile couldn't save her from her self .
I really enjoyed this video. Makes me want to play the game again.
Thank you. I watched some of your videos too, and I really am struggling with whether I should get a camera for recording or a PS4 Pro for christmas (I don't have a console)...decisions.
Hey awesome video! I always hated her character because I didn't understand her. I love her now!
That's a good thing, she's a great character. I still don't truly understand her, but I think that's why I love her.
Your beliefs on morality.. is it moral nihilism or some kind of existentialism??
Existentialism. I don't believe things really have an inherent meaning, I think people assign meaning. As such I am not really religious. As I personally don't find utility in it.
Nerdslayer May I ask how you would define inherent meaning? You definitely sound like you've read you're fair share of philosophy.
I've only read Sartre's book nausea when it comes to existentialism.
Inherent would be, let's say people believe "charity" to have an inherent goodness to it. But I think that some could choose to see it as harmful, and assign a negative connotation to it. This would go against the "inherent" nature of it. Same as religion. People see religion as "inherently" right, or just. I don't.
Really enjoyed this mate, but I'm a sucker for KOTOR analysis, it's such a broad and well told game everybody comes out with different opinions and it's always a good listen.
Your editing was on point to keep me interested and your voice worked. Well done.
Thanks. I thought injecting some live quotes would be helpful to keep people interested.
10/10 video for a 10/10 game. Although kreia’s character rubbed me the wrong way when I was a kid, I now see how well written & amazingly complex she is
Very well done. Thanks for the video.
This is exactly what I needed!
We're in the same boat when it comes to Kreia. I was 9 years old when I first played Kotor 2, and her philosophy has been stuck in my head ever since. Perhaps her natural curiosity and philosophical tendencies rubbed off on tiny me.
Great video, at any rate! Love finding small youtube channels and doing my bit to help them grow!
Thanks, hopefully you like my other content I am coming out with too. Whether you disagree or not :D
Oh, will definitely be taking a look. I myself have the desire to do some content like the kind I've seen from you - alas, time has kept me from going more in-depth in most of the games I play through. Except for a few World of Warcraft videos, of course! *shamelessly plugs his stuff* :D :D
On a serious note, looking forward to more content, and will be taking a look at the older stuff in the oncoming days, so you can look forward to more comments, more self-advertisement (joking) and just general fun! :D
Awesome video sir
Interesting video, Kreia has alway been somewhat of a weird mystery for me since I first played this game as a kid
Wouldn't Kreia be a moral relativist rather than a moral nihilist?
Kreia didn't actually say that apathy is death, the hallucination generated by the temple did. Furthermore Kreia's by far the most apathetic character within the story literally ignoring or brushing of everyone and examining people on the basis of their utility to her and her ends.
Great video!
I've wanted to see a KOTOR series on either HBO or Netflix for such a long time. I would Love to see them start the show with Revan being trained by Kreia.
Great video. Do you have a full spoiler video on the story behind the Mandalorian Wars, etc.?
A+ analysis.
I really think you should do a video about fable 2, Theresa shares a great deal of similarities with Kreia an is also a far more in depth character then you would think at first glance. Anyway love the Vids man, Keep it up
It's interesting Kreia feels that people should help themselves but supports Revan's choice to do the greater good and save the republic not the republic saving itself.
I guess shes looking at Revan's point of view and I mean she didn't say never to help or do charity but be selective with it so I guess in this case letting the republic fall would have lead to True sith returning and taking over galaxy so maybe she wasn't being inconsistent. I'm not sure?
Always thought after hearing about Kae that Kreia was her and that she became the new general since Exile went back to Jedi for judgement.
I think Kreia was a bit bias, she wanted Revan to be great because of her affection for him. But that's a good point. But yeah, I don't think she wanted the true sith to take over. She might have been a bit neutral at times, but I think she leaned more good than evil neutral. I think if Kae/Kreia's story align, then Kae was the one exiled and didn't really get to follow Revan to war (she had her force powers stripped remember?)
Well the handmaiden said her father went off to fight with her mother. He returned after Malachor. Where did Kreia go? I'm sure Brianna said they arrived just after the generator went off. So my theory is Exile left which meant there was no one to lead the Jedi and army when they confronted Emperor other than Saul karath.
Like Revan all the Jedi who were Kreia's apprentices went to war. Therefore she would be the perfect person to command there respect.
Also ever notice Malak wasn't brain controlled when he went to the star map on dantooine with Revan. So the idea that he and Revan were still under Emperors influence I think is false when they were searching for star maps.
Who is the one person strong enough with Telepathy to break the Emperors hold?
Also Revan personally killed Brianna's father. Although other reasons have been suggested did Kreia agree to run academy on Malachor if Revan accepted Yusanis challenge to get revenge for what she saw as a betrayal to leave her and go back to Echan? "Who has been betrayed in ones heart and will betray in turn".
Also does anyone know how she got the Ebon Hawk?
I loved video by the way she is my favourite character also as she is just very challenging which is rare.
great vid
Really good video.
Thank you!
I don't think Kreia is an enlightenment philosopher at all. The enlightenment philosophers are far too optimistic. The existentialists realises the problems of living in a godless and meaningless universe.
I didn't say she was, I said her "movement" was much like the "age of enlightenment"
I'm just going through a very anti-enlightenment period right now.
Birger Halvorsen still going through an anti-enlightenment period?
We humans invented meanings but the universe is meaningless. Eventualy you can find it has rules but nothing more. I hope one day people will stop seeking meanings outside themselves and realise that each individual can make his own. At that moment true freedom will be attained.
THat would basically mean telling yourself lies. That would be like saying something tastes good when it has no taste. If there is no meaning there is no meaning. You can't fabricate meaning. If you make it up, it's FAKE.
Either you have true objective meaning or you have NO meaning. Relativism is a philosophy of self-deceit. If you make up your own definition of meaning, then you are lying to yourself.
I am but a mirror whose only purpose is to show you that what your own eyes cannot see
Technically Kreia doesn't say "apathy is death", that scene happens in a vision
My favourite character too, who also helped develop my opinions on morality
except...she shouldn't have... because say she was willing to teach you...whatever choice you make, she will point out how and why you were wrong to have done so.
Kreia isn’t as complex as you think. If you aligned your choices around killing the force, you’ll find her on your side every time. Though it took many years of playing for me to realize this, it’s actually been in your face the entire game.
Kreia can still be considered a Sith. I get from her perspective she isn't but from another perspective she is. She thinks that making yourself stronger is the best thing you can do but people that believe in an objective good and evil will consider that evil because you are only focusing on yourself and power.
She loved the Force. That's why she studied it so deeply, why she obsessed about it so. And then she felt betrayed by it when she realised the extent of its influence. So she turned from love to hatred. Obsession remained.
She is one of my favourite charakters she seems to be dark, insane or a sith but she always was wise and just wanted the best for the Galaxy she seeked the meaning of strength and wanted Revenge too but always she wanted to safe the galaxy
The irony of the “force”, is that the real life developers of sed universe are essentially the force putting things into motion as they see fit. She was right to question it.
What I find interesting is that supposedly Star Wars was not one of Chris Avellone's top choices when wanting to work on a Sc-fi project because he said he wasn't a fan of the force or thought Star Wars to be cheesy. I didn't believe this at first, but then seeing how Darth Traya was written out to be a character who despises the force for killing over thousands of lives just to achieve balance actually makes sense.
I'm glad he agreed to write a story for Star Wars though because imagine where it would be without Kotor 2?!
Ahh I love this.
The editing is poor, but I adored what you had to say, how you tied it to real world philosophies, used in-game quotes to reinforce your ideas,, and your voice is also pretty good, even if you speak a bit too fast at times!
Yes. It deeply hurts me how terrible my editing/quality of this video is, since it's one of my favorite stories/videos to make. But at some point I will come back (when I have the right editor/editing skills) and redo these sort of videos.
I'd be glad to see it, if it comes! The content was the important part - and it was solid!
There is a small editing issue where you cut some lines too early, but otherwise this is a great video and analysis!
Thanks. And yes, they tilt me every-time I listen to it. I will be more cognizant next time I do the editing.
Kreia is such a good character!
T3 saying apathy is death is hilarious xD
she has taught me as well. her students will be the kings of this planet. stay true to her teachings
Kotor 2 is a masterpiece, the characters and themes are the most complex Star Wars has ever gotten.
Best Video Game character in history
I would follow lord traya into the abyss. she was an amazing teacher
3 Alcoholics (Vrook Lamar, Kavar, Zez-Kai Ell) VS One Walking History Book (Kreia)
If you play with the restored content mod, it's implied that her supposed goal of "killing the force" was bullshit, and just a way to force the Exile to confront her and finish their training. All Kreia really wanted to do was to rebuild the Jedi Order without the baggage and flaws of the past, and saw the Exile as the perfect way to do this. She probably wanted this because she felt that the current Jedi Order was incapable of facing the threat of the True Sith, so, she did the same thing that Revan did to the Republic: destroy the superfluous, but leave the essential infrastructure intact. She is definitely an existentialist, but not to the extent that her supposed motivations may make her seem.
I don't really agree. The restored content enforces her vision of the force being aberrant more in my opinion. I don't think Kreia wanted to rebuild the "jedi order" as we knew it, but her vision of the jedi order. That's why she had to have Atris eradicated, because she was using the sith holocrons to teach the newer age of "jedi" (meanwhile being surrounded by non-force sensitives).
I don't think Kreia necessarily needed to rebuild the Jedi Order in her image, only that the mistakes of the past be done away with. If the teachings she imparts to the Exile are taken onboard and passed on to the Lost Jedi, that's great, but all she needs is a Jedi Order capable of fighting the True Sith.
Kreia wants rid of Atris because she is the epitome of the old Jedi Order and all it's flaws.
Good attempt at analysing Kreia, however you fall short by using Existentialism to analyse Kreia rather than Nietzschean philosophy to examine why Kreia despises the Force.
You realize Nietzsche was considered one of the grandfathers of Existentialism right?
+nerdSlayer
Yes but you were using the broad strokes of existentialism on free will to talk about Kreia rather than her main motivation of fighting against institution of morality (the Jedi and Sith philosophy) and how the dependency on the Force itself is just another of Eternal Recurrence with actual application within the universe of Star Wars.
Those are Nietzschean principles, which does fall under Existentialism, sure, but does not convey or explore her philosophy.
For example, you point out that Kreia (4:35) doesn't accept that the Force has a will, and you conclude that she hates it because it means that no one has free will.
This isn't her problem. Her problem is that the Force has a will that creates endless series of balances, which results in countless deaths. You brush it off with ''oh she likes being in control'' and you completely mischaracterize the Force as not letting anyone have free will which is entirely inaccurate. Everyone has their own free will, it just conveniently balances itself out in a way that seems deterministic. Kreia says that there are no true coincidences with the Force and even in Kotor 1, no one is really surprised to find out that HK-47 belonged to Revan and just happened to be bought by him.
This is a direct view of the entirety of the Star Wars canon and the Prequel movies themselves. Anakin was prophesied to bring balance to the Force. And how did the Force achieve this? By getting the entire galaxy to fight in a pointless war controlled on both sides by the Sith, get the entire Jedi order annihilated, wait 20 years of Sith oppression, have the son of prophesied chosen one to defeat him in a duel and THEN bring balance to the Force after he sees his son being tortured.
Countless death, for balance. THAT is what Kreia found abhorrent.
Your analysis, as said, is a good attempt, but falls short because you went in with the analysis of Kreia by wanting to talk about free will which has nothing to do with Kreia.
I will eventually do my own analysis on Kreia in the future addressing these points.
I also wonder where you got the idea that she helped Nihilus to destroy all life in the galaxy because she wanted to teach him how to remove The Force in the galaxy.
I don't recall anywhere mentioning this point in the game.
Kreia mentioned that eating life along with the Force is an old Sith technique, but nothing shows that she taught Nihilus so that he could remove the Force out of life. She even says that there is no victory in seeing everything die.
It is said in the game guide/comic. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_Campaign_Guide . And also inferred in the actual game because Darth Nihilus was a pupil of Kreia who knew how to also feast on the force (like she did on Dantooine).
nerdSlayer
Kreia learned such a technique from the Exile, and it's obvious that Nihilus learned such a technique from her as well. But I don't see where you found that she purposefully tough him that with the intended purpose of removing the Force.
Sure, she wanted to remove the Force and hated it because it has a will, but that's looking for your own answers without evidence.
Also, could you tell me where it is said in that guide? I'll torrent it and see where it is as the link you provided tells me nothing. Seeing as the guide was written by someone outside of Avellone and not by someone who worked at Obsidian, and is unlikely to source such information, I am unsure about its credibility.
I would kill to be able to somehow listen in on a conversation between Kreia and the Force Priestesses on the Force Planet, or the Ones of Mortis. It will obviously never happen but I can dream, can't I?
Its funny in the end Krien, who hated the Force ends up submitting to it as she dies
Definitely, but I wonder if she had any solace in the end.
0_0 major news about episode 8 has brought me back to this and the consept of the Wills entities beyond that of the phisical galaxy that were the force itself. Something it's not stated what but something Luke and Ben discovered about the ancient Jedi shattered everything they believed that it turned Ben to the Darkside and Luke whent into exile looking for answers I think it was research done by a figure similar to Kreia into the Wills and that they exist and that the wills planed destiny is for the galaxy to be in an endless cycle of war between darkness and light to maintain a balence between the two. Snoke is a rouge Will who wants to destroy this balence and bring peace for good through an eternal darkness and because somewhere along the way the jedi agreed to keep this cycle going is what drove Ben to become Kylo Ren mean while Luke searches for the jedi's origin to truly understand the jedi's goals and the nature of the force. I think with this in mind episode 8 maybe much darker than episode 5 and shatter the very core ideas we had about the jedi and it all deals with the fact that when I read the report Luke and Ben discovered something that could change the history of the jedi as we know them. All I kept hearing echoing in my head is Kreia saying you were afraid 0_0
She trains you how to live, I learned valuable lessons from her that I use in life, she also trains you to awaken dormant psychic powers. to read people. and all her lessons work in the real life, love her to death.
When I was a kid, and got this for Christmas, I was so disappointed with this game, as was most.
But I ended up torrenting the game in college in order to mod it and try it out again. I had a new capability of understanding the game's story much more.
I'll be honest, I think Kotor II is a much better game in regards to story, and had they actually been given the time to complete it, it could have been popularly thought of as such.
Awesome channel. Treya is up there as a fave of mine too.
Just want to clarify a point: there were two enlightenments. The first began in the late 13th century and it was focused in and around Florence, Italy. The Second Renaissance or Second Enlightenment occurred in the period you cited, and was mostly centered around the North Western European states of England, Scotland, Holland, and the other Scandanavian states.
These are both separate and distinct from the American Enlightenment, which occurred in the US at the time of its inception, roughly parallel to the European Second Renaissance.
Kreia is what character make them unique there own opinion even in a game
I want to say that I really appreciate you doing this whole character analysis on Kreia, because she is one of my favorite female game characters of all time, and she was one of the big reasons why I played through all of KOTOR 2 (at that time botched by a rushed release date, but now I have KOTOR 2 on steam with all the restoration mods), and I'm glad that this underrated female character finally got the recognition that she deserves, especially with all of her complex gray views on philosophy and life, in general. :)
She was underrated only by simpletons and morons
Have you considered doing a character analysis on Revan?
In D&D the True Neutral alignment is hard a concept to grasp and roleplay properly. Kreia is probably the best practical example of a True Neutral character.
To be honest, I think she's more neutral evil....she is more prone to using force to "teach" people.
She is my favorite Star Wars character
Hey Nerdslayer can you do commentaries/analysies on Fallout 1 and or 2, or possibly Dragon Age Origins?
also have you played Jade Empire?
I have played Jade Empire (not in some time). And I am not the biggest Fallout fan...but I would do a video on Dragon Age Origins, just might be more focused on the characters (as I think the story isn't too spectacular).
Nerdslayer That's cool, have you considered doing more character analysises on kotor characters?
Hmm... I might do a character comparison on KOTOR characters, but frankly when I think KOTOR I think Kreia.
Nerdslayer Do you agree or disagree with Kreia's ideas about the force?
I don't agree with her pessimism of it, how she thinks it's "bad" for the world. The force is in everything, and I don't think that is a bad thing. I do agree however that getting caught up on Jedi/Sith ideologies is pointless though.
aside from some choppy editing, good video.
one thing though, saying she isn't a jedi or sith isn't entirely true, she willingly holds the title of darth, and i believe her ideology is the extreme progression of sith teachings, as she sees it. she, like all sith, search for true victory, for absolute power, and she could never achieve this, because Kreia sees the force itself as the great orcastrator, that she is a pawn in its plan. in refusing to allow the force to have mastery over herself and others, she wants to kill it, to remove the greatest power over everyone's heads. i don't disagree on your ideas of Kreia's existential ideology, just disagree in ignoring her sith leanings and thinking.
of course kreia was obessed. hate is love.
Right and wrong are very clear. It is due to one own moral failings that you can't tell the difference. That being said, Kreia is a compelling character.
Seems to me that both Revan and Kreia had vastly more complete understandings of life and the force and the greater good than either of the orders. All through Revan's trials on whichever side of the force he was fighting for, you have this unseen spectre out there that he slowly worked his way towards: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion. To me, Tenebrae is easily the definition of evil. He makes Sidious look like a choir boy. Sidious just wanted to dominate. Yea, Sidious wouldnt hesitate to kill whatever stood in his path but Tenebrae didnt care about any life other than his own. He wanted godhood through complete annihilation of all life. He was far better at manipulation and lasted thousands of years across many host bodies and minds.
And so Revan who was mentored by Kreia could have been the only one to at the very least inhibit Tenebrae from attaining the ultimate goal of being a god.
Damn....the old republic is so much more interesting than all these polished turds from Disney.
Actually Kreia wanted to teach the exail to be human first not simply a Jedi or Sith The core of Jedi belief is altruism, self destruction Sacrificing your self for the greater good where as Sith is more egoism basically Nietzsche that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger, its the embodiment of master morality vs slave morality.
I wonder how many script writers for "The Last Jedi" played KOTOR2, and were thus inspired to weave a bit of Kreia's character and motivations into Luke's latest incarnation... Just sayin'...
THIS SO MUCH! I have been trying to explain to haters of the Last Jedi, particularly the ones who see it as somehow a betrayal of what has come before in Star Wars, how the movie weaves in so many concepts from the KOTOR games into the movie. Somehow, it's almost totally absent from the discussion of the movie, both by fans of the movie and those who didn't like it so much.
Also, in addition to the negative "F*ck it! It's all f*cked up anyway" side of things, it also reminds me of the positive Buddhist approach of "The Middle Path", such as when Siddhārtha Gautama was first an ultra rich and affluent yet sheltered and clueless prince, and then an ultra poor and wretched ascetic hermit, and then finally, once he figured out that either extreme was bad and unbalanced, the enlightened Buddha.
I see the slight similarities such as Luke doubting the Jedi and the Force. But, I feel like he intended to give up on the Force entirely because he felt ashamed that he unintentionally "created" Kylo Ren. Luke blamed himself for every single death at the hands of Kylo Ren. He blamed himself for the destruction of everything he had built. In essence, Luke felt like he had no more purpose to live anymore. And when he came to the realization that the Force is just an ongoing cycle of trying to balance itself ("Darkness rises, Light comes to meet it"), then he probably thought what's the damn point of fighting anymore. History will just repeat itself again and again and again. Why waste your time trying to fix a problem that will only be reversed later?
By the way, I wasn't and still not a fan of seeing Luke Skywalker depicted with a cynical, pessimistic, and hopeless attitude because it was very jarring from the last time you saw his idealism, optimism, and hopefulness.
I wish that like John Wright said above me, Luke emulated the enlightened Buddha who worshipped neither the Jedi or Sith philosophies, but still had hope that a "truce" or understanding can come between the two sides so that no more wars can occur. I always wondered if Luke could've been able to create a new order by taking aspects from both Sith and Jedi philosophies without feeling biased to either.
FYI: Rian Johnson (the one and only writer) did play KOTOR because he confirmed that he wouldn't want to make any films about it since he's already played the game. I'm not sure if he played the second one though.
As far as that Buddhist angle, it's also worth mentioning that it's also very much like the oldschool Henson/Oz classic, The Dark Crystal, where during the final climax of the story, the malevolent "Skeksis" are recombined with the benevolent "Mystics" in order to become the perfected and whole "urSkeks".
When I first saw that scene as a child, it blew my little mind at the time, as up til' that point, I had always assumed that pure goodness was pure perfection, and evil only contaminated that perfection. But this was a Yin/Yang duality that I hadn't even thought about before, where good was the equal but opposite of evil, and one was imperfect and incomplete without the other, and that perfection was the completeness of the whole.
It should also be of note that Frank Oz, the co creator of The Dark Crystal, also used to "play" and voice Yoda...
Yeah I thought that too but the answer is no.
KOTOR II does they greyness of things elegantly and beautifully.
The Last Jedi plays with the idea but fails miserably.
Kreia IS doing something to stop Nihilus and Sion, while Luke is just sitting around letting Snoke and Kylo Ren do whatever the fuck they want. You can't possibly believe everything is gray while letting the dark dominate everything. Apathy is death.
And let's not even tackle the glaring plotholes.
And no there weren't multiple screen writers, it was round head Rian Johnson alone surrounded by yes men. Perhaps if he had those people to help him make these ideas more convincing we wouldn't be where we are now.
I feel like Kreia wouldve loved Zakuul since they are more gray than anything and also only use the force as a tool instead of a ideal or religion
I suppose it's catchier to say 'Apathy is death' and not 'Apathy is worse then death' even though she invalidated 'Apathy is death' by stating that your failure can at least be of a benefit to others whereas apathy helps no-one and accomplishes nothing.
Greya
if done right in the next movie Luke could very well be the mirror of what Kreia was. Luke sees a need for getting rid of the idea of jedi and sith ideology break away form the cycle of the force into something new with his own will but perhaps on much lighter scale as while kriea hated both sith and jedi she was still very much more on the darker thoughts of things. in essence Luke is a grey Jedi. Kreia is a grey Sith.
What would be an even better villian than Kreia? Kreia mounted on Grigori.
I know its maybe stupid to compare characters, but guys... imagine how you felt when you saw for the first time characters like Ray, Kylo, Finn, etc. Is that even close to what Kraia represents? Or Meetra Surik? These KOTOR characters have an emotional bound to us, simply great writing.
I liked the game but never finished it because I read it was cut short. How does the game stand on its own two legs without the mod to add all the missing content in? Or is getting the mod worth it?
Definitely get the mod, it helps clear up a lot of the ending portion of the game.
I should point out that the line "Apathy is death" isn't her speaking but an illusion of her saying that. Isn't it? Which would mean it might not actually apply to her?
She actually says it at the end, when she summons the 3 lighstabers on Malachor V.
Ah, didn't realize that, but it does lead me to the question of why not use that clip but, I guess it's alright.
Though I should also point out that the Malachor we see in Rebels is probably not related to the Kreia we know from this game, or even connected to Revan. Maybe heavily inspired by them but it's still a mystery
stAaaAteemEent: AaaApaathYyYY iIIiiis DEEEaaath
I question more if she was good or bad and still don’t know
Kreia is also possibly my favorite character, and has been for a year or two. I played the game again, though, recently, and I'm not really sure how her actions at the end of the game make sense. She seeks to create another wound -- a greater wound. Creating it in Malachor kinda makes sense... sorta... a wound is already there, but because it's a dead spot in the force, it can't be any *more* dead, right? But the part that really confuses me is what her goal actually is. Atris says she plans to murder herself in the core to create that greater wound (let's just assume that it *would* create a galaxy-deafening wound). So... why didn't she just do that? She was connected to the Exile so the Exile would die too, thus still accomplishing the same goal. That's the whole reason the Exile is forced to go, for fear of death due to her suicide. So the Exile goes... and fights her... she says that by killing her there you reward her more than you can possibly know, and that's great and all, but ultimately proven to be completely untrue, because it doesn't seem to create a greater wound in the force at all. By killing her, your character should've died as well -- that was one of the central ideas of the game, was that your bond with her would result in death, which is why she did all that she did at the end. So... in the end you pretty much prove that her assumption was false, and leave? Seems kinda anti-climactic, to be honest.
TL:DR - at the end of Kotor 2, SOMEONE dies, either you or her, and based on the bond, BOTH of you should then die, and thus create the wound she intends to create. Why does this not happen?
She wanted to open the wound even wider so that it would actually KILL the force.
A thing you must understand...Kreia is a dishonest narrator...we cannot believe her stated intentions or plans. She lies to the characters and the player throughout the game...even to the end.
Right, but it DIDN'T
True... and also, she may have simply been wrong
idnewton
I am actually pretty sure that Kreia was spot on and generally right about everything.
my entire world philosophy is exactly the same as kreia's except i replace the force with emotions and im also a pacifist so theres that too
Why she and Exile fought to death in the end?
What about Scion? Nihilus is rather obvious, but scion still seems odd...
Could you do more character analysis from the Kotor Franchise as well?
Sion, but I think Sion is a bit more obvious to be honest. He was taken by Kreia and molded to try and reflect what she thought of the force, but she quickly released pain and force were all he really knew. He didn't have the same thirst for knowledge or power through the force as Nihilus or the Exile did. He was already like that when Kreia met him (since he's been alive since Sith Hyperspace War). His character as far as I know, just wants to see the death of the Jedi. And lives in a constant state of pain, which fuels his rage and gives him the power to "not die". But like Kreia said, he's rather blind when it comes to the deeper meanings of the force. What other character should I analyze?
Atton Rand would be a nice alternative from the Force sensitives...but is there a lot to analyze?
Good point, that would be my fear too. He's a great character, but he's very similar to Han Solo...his differentiating key is his past, and his force sensitivity. A good character for sure, but the video wouldn't be too long.