Ron Spomer Saved My Favorite Gun!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2024
- Thanks To Sightmark For Sponsoring This Video!
TH-cam CHAPTERS
0:00 Intro
1:54 Pre-Cleaning Groups
2:25 First Shots Recap
2:41 Cleaning The Gun
4:58 Sightmark Ad
5:52 Post-Cleaning Groups
6:53 Post-Cleaning Recap
8:16 Talking To Ron Spomer
12:57 Video Recap/Thank You Ron!
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Ron Spomer is a national treasure for sure. He's one of the last remaining "outdoorsmen" that learned his knowledge the old fashioned way. He's a lot like my dad when it comes to rifles and hunting distances. And his method is tried and true. He's not a big fan of the new improved rifle rounds with high BC bullets. His point of aim 3" inch high/ 3" inch low, works great with the old style shot flat out to 300 yards guns. It's the most simple way, and very ethical too. Most of us can't guarantee perfect kill shots past 300 or 400. Love you show, and his too.
It's the mixing of the goals and mindsets of two worlds, honestly: long range target (includes military application) vs. modest range hunting. The product marketing is probably the biggest culprit, not necessary lying to anyone but moreso pushing the sniper ideas, pushing the low-drag benefits to the exclusion of most everything else, and in the processes, losing a generation of entry-level people to the noise who should have been hearing the information before low-drag was so marketed. To prove my point, I think, you show anyone under the age of 45 today a handful of "old style" projectiles and the cartridges they are often loaded in, and the firearms that are often chambered for them, and there is a VERY emotional reaction.
What's your goal?! Hunting? Or something else? Because for many lifetimes of firearms and munition technologies before this crop of younger people came along, technology was VERY figured out for hunting and VERY effective.
What cannot be bought is hunting talent (the part that has nothing to do with firearms and munitions). People would rather throw down thousands and pop critters at "long distance" than invest in themselves as individuals to develop hunting skills not related to equipment capability. Hunting takes time, people spend far more time shopping equipment behind a computer.
Ron is always a good go to!
I was a machinist for years and learned that when we went from machining one we needed to start with fresh inserts or we could have issues with finishes and/or tolerances.
This is SUPER helpful. This wasn’t specifically mentioned in the video but… think of all the people who are just trying monolithic copper for the first time. They were shooting lead before, try copper, and think… “well, that wasn’t much better.” But now knowing that we need to clean to raw steel… what a difference! Thank you Jim and Ron! So grateful for all the knowledge you are imparting to all of us.
Im a sporting lead-free ambassador and have been shooting non-lead for over 10 years. Monolithic copper doesn't deform the same as lead with a copper jacket. As Ron said, the jacket is a different alloy its not pure copper it has a different friction and hardness. Always clean entirely when you switch.
SO- YOU ARE AN "AMBASSADOR" FOR ANTI- LEAD BULLET FASCISM BASED ON "FALSE SCIENCE"??
I’ve also heard the same thing when switching powders when handloading. If you load one powder, you should clean before testing another powder.
Do you not recommend breaking in/speeding up new barrels with none copper ammo? Gets expensive to break them in with just copper ammo
@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595I wouldn’t do that, I like testing bullets and powderers on one range trip, even if it takes me 6-8 hours
@@ArpexOfficial just clean whenever you change
That was awesome. Can you imagine calling Ron Spomer in person? That man is a legend.
ron is the goat
100% Ron is the goat! 🐐
I have goats, that might not be a compliment.
Ron and Jim, good sources of information.
Very interesting, thanks for the experiment! Mister Ron is a legend! The young guy isn't bad at shooting! 👍
Ron definitely had the fix for you. I like to stick to the same load I develop for each of my guns and clean as needed. I'm not a mono metal bullet guy but they can definitely shoot and perform on game. They are just very different from lead bullets in the way they obdurate after engraving the rifling as well as differing greatly in their expansion and penetration. It's great to have knowledgeable resources like Ron who is so willing to help others. Big thumbs up for Ron Spomer and to you as well for posting this video - it will definitely help many who watch it.
What I like most about Ron Spomer is that if he doesn't know, he says so right up front - And then, if he has an opinion, he'll provide it while making it clear hat it's what he thinks, but does not know.
Cannot beat that level of genuineness.
Thanks for reaching out to Mr Spomer, and sharing your findings - I was thinking that the wider groups from my 280AI copper loads were [just] me, and would never have considered that the Nosler and Swift projectiles that went through before the CXs could be fouling me up.
As an HVAC/R guy, Copper gets really sticky under extreme temperatures, that's probably metallurgically happening. Even Brass isn't as sticky as pure Copper
Ron's laughter at the end of the explanation was just the best. That's a real mates response right there. Salute from Australia.
There's much wisdom to gain from men like Ron, who have been in the game as long as he has. Glad you shared this experience as I have heard this before, but I had never tested to prove or disprove the theory. Thanks again!
I am glad to see you shooting copper. They create their own set of issues regarding barrel cleaning. What happened to you, i have seen many times. I have actually hunted with uncle ron many times. In about 2002, he used my 6.5-06 with a 120 grain lost river ballistic copper bullet to shoot a big canada moose. He's a great shooter and hunter. The 6.5-06 shoots a 120 to 130 grain copper at 3150 to 3250 fps and was devastating on bears, moose, elk, etc. The same rifle with a 120 grain ballistic tip was only adequate for deer, antelope, coyote.
I always clean my gun to bare metal when switching from copper to lead core. The dirtier the barrel, the more critical it is. Even when switching from a hornady to a nosler or a berger, expect a potential bullet impact shift from the 1st round to the next ones. Even changing powder from like h1000 to n565 can cause the first bullet to have a slightly different impact point. Most shooters dont keep their barrel condition consistent and it's a big cause of accuracy issues.
As long as your muzzle device, stock, scope rings/base are tight, it's 100 percent either the bore condition or a scope issue. Usually it's the barrel needing a through cleaning.
If you want peak accuracy from copper bullet loads i almost never shoot more than 20 to 50 rounds before cleaning. I have an old pre 64 model 70 in 375 that copper fouls in under 20 rounds. Some guns will go to 40 or 50. Also i have never had a gun with a good barrel, shoot worse after cleaning than when its dirty. If this is the case, the barrel was not cleaned completely and still has a partial carbon ring or uneven copper fouling. I also recommend using a borescope to check for fouling and carbon rings.
That is what I wondered if copper looses accuracy the more shots shot through it sooner than lead core. You just confirmed what I thought
This is super valuable information. I think that there are a ton of very popular gun channels that need to know this
This is awesome . I was headed to the range to switch from copper to lead and I was lucky enough to see this before I went , time to clean
I am so thankful for seeing this. I just built a 35 Whelen and loaded up 100rds of testers for a desert shoot. I loaded Hdy, Speer and Barnes. Would have been bummed if it shot all over the place because I was mixing the two bullet types.
I came to this conclusion earlier this year. I had the rifle in a Chassis that I used for plinking with target bullets. Hunting season came around, went to monolithic copper LRXs and it didn't group worth a darn. Went through the rifle checking all the screws. So I used a different rifle with lead core Berger Hunting rounds. I cleaned the rifle thoroughly and tried the LRXs again. Rifle shot sub MOA again. I also cleaned the rifle when switching different Powders in my hand loads before. This just validated what I came across. I didn't know why. I just knew it worked. Keep up the great work Backfire
Yep had this same issue doing load development last summer. Was shooting ELD-X and Copper CX bullets and had some very crazy stuff happening. I now make sure to clean thoroughly between them. And make sure to do some fouling shots before I run the test. Also had the same issue going between Nosler Partitions and Barnes LRX in another rifle.
I have a browning x bolt chambered in 300 RUM and I was consistently getting 2.5 inch groups with every type of ammo I tried. After watching this video, I gave my gun a very thorough cleaning and then went to the range and grouped the Barnes lrx bullets 0.625” at 100 yards. Really helped me out. Thanks.
Thanks Jim and Ron. I was a big fan of Col. Craig Boddington back in the day. I even got to meet him at a SHOT Show in New Orleans a while back. Ron has picked up the torch and is doing a marathon. Great info. My .308 will be appreciative. I would at least bed the recoil lug if not the whole action.
I like watching Ron's video's. there's always gold in the knowledge of this man.
From my experiance, I have encountered that at times when doing load development or shooting different ammo and the bullet changes, the group will change until the barrel settles with the new bullet being shot. Example going from an accubond to a barnes. Both shot very good, but it took several shots for the barrel to settle. But I have to take my hat off to Erik Cortina, Because I learned the hard way. Especially with new barrels. You can make it change but its hard to bring back older barrels. But his Barrel cleaning regiment right out of the gate, makes a world of difference if you stick with it, everytime you finish shooting. After I learned his method several years ago, it has been a blessing. YOU have to CLEAN the BARREL.
Man, you find some really great information that can save us time and trouble!
Had same problem in model 7 .308 when I switched to copper. Was at my wits end with the rifle. Went into a hole in wall gun shop with an old timer at counter and was told to use sweets 7.62 and clean bore until patches were clean. Worked like a charm
Ron is a Legend, nice Jim, best regards from Brazil 🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷
This video is brilliant. Makes sense. I had same results with my Tikka. Driving me crazy. Can’t wait to get back to the range. Already cleaned the rifle.
Also very glad I saw this show. I was getting ready to try several new loads for accuracy and didn’t know why I had trouble the last time I shot this rifle.
What a great video! Definitely something to be aware of.
Thanks Jim I am switching to cooper bullets so it's in to the gun and start cleaning.
we push jags with boretech eliminator until clean to bare metal after every trip....re-fouling before use. Like Cortina says...you can keep it consistently clean...but not consistently dirty.
Boretech is the shit!! Cleans out all copper
Jim, Ron Spomer tip is "spot-on". I just went through a similar situation with my Tikka T3X. The rifle shoots sub-MOA when I do my part with Hornady SST for target shooting. I shot some barnes bullets then back to the SSTs and 1.5-2" groups. I saw your video; cleaned the rifle down to steel and reshot today. My groups were .82 and .662. It worked. Thanks to you and Ron
Love Ron and I love see 2 different channels support each other
This is great to know…I’ve been slowly switching over to copper on my hunting rifles but couldn’t get some of them to group correctly…Now I’m gonna clean them and retry to see if the groups are tighter
I had this same experience when I first tried Barnes X bullets. The Barnes Reloading Manual recommended this ,so I did it! It definitely makes a difference!🤔
how nice those cold hammered barrels are on the inside. pure quality
Those different coppers stick to each other. I run some hotrods, and I've learned that the hard way! Anytime I switch bullet types, I scrub the barrel down. Ron is the man!
Good for Ron!!
Thanks for sharing this information. I have been using 130 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips in my 270 Win for a couple decades, but my youngest brother developed a load with 130 grain Hornady CXs for a heartier option for out west or possibly on black bears 🐻.
It’s good to know this before I were to get frustrated trying to group more with the copper once we load more.
Greetings from south central BC. Another friend of Ron's, writer John Barsness, shared a tip with me regarding monometal bullets when I was having a bit of a tough time getting one brand to shoot in a particular rifle. He said he found the monometal bullets often shoot better if they're seated further off the lands than a conventional bullet, that they like to "jump" further. Sure enough, that's been the case with that rifle and a couple others since. Something to try anyways, so hope that helps someone out there.
One observation as well, it did not need fowling shots in the groups got larger as it got dirtier.
I was contemplating copper, and now I know what to do if I make the switch. As a sidenote, I currently use Sako Super Hammerhead ammo, which are bonded soft points. I had to make a close-range finishing shot (less than 20yds) with a .30-06. Not one speck of shock bruising beyond the impact flesh! I was able to trim the impact edges and use the meat without trimming any shock loss! In states the Super Hammerhead ammo is legal, I HIGHLY recommend it! It's hard to find these days and hopefully Sako will send some more to us so anyone interested in trying it can do so. I have enough for myself. I also hope they produce more calibers in that product. My 30-06 shoots 1/2" groups @100yds with it and it's very efficient.
Thanks for the vid!
Just watched you video, I discovered the same thing about two years ago. When I made the switch to copper I had issues with accuracy in 4 different rifles, did the deep cleaning trick and they all started shooting well under MOA. I did find that I needed to clean more often when using Barns bullets.
David Tubb's Final Finish will help smooth machine marks, burrs left in a barrel, helping with fouling and cleaning. Ask any machinist that does barrels about the machine marks no matter the grade or cost. Shilen, Krieger, Douglas....etc.
Comming from Air Gun Competition (don´t lough 😅) I can just say, when we changed "ammo" for testing it always was worth to clean barrels first and run some shots throug bevor grouping. Even different lead composits made a difference on friction at the rifling or left overs. Not that much with the new smooth twists or polygons. Should be true for powder burners too - more pressure, more velocity, way more effect. So for me its a just regular rule of discipline to clean bevor change, never did any else.
Great channels Ron and Jim. Love your stuff. 👋from Europe
I tried Barnes copper in my Bergara Ridge after maybe a hundred rounds of cup and core ammo. It didn’t group well at all. Maybe this is my solution. I’ve heard this before but I guess it didn’t click with me till watching real proof in this video. Nice work. I enjoy watching your content as well as Ron’s. He shares a lot of good info from between the ears for us shooters.
I can attest to this for 300blk out of an AR. I was shooting fmj target ammo and got in some some ammo loaded with Makers 125gr solid coppers, for deer hunting. My groups were trash. I figured it was just a dirty gun and needed to clean it. Cleaned it up really good and the groups tightened up. When I saw Ron mention this, I figured that must have been the issue.
I told the rifle guys that do the cleanings at Sportsman's warehouse about this in Ogden, Utah. They'd never heard it before and weren't really "buying" this concept.
But, If Ron S. says it, its "golden" to me. I've run with it since he first said it on one of his earlier programs a few months ago.
Of course the Sportsman's guys don't know.... Lol. I actually just dealt with this with my Steyr. Went from 1/2" to 6" groups by playing with a medley of ammo.
fun project.
I had the exact same problem with a Carl Gustav 1900 rifle.
It stopped shooting good groups.
I had a lot of so-called carbon deposits and copper in the barrel that I couldn't see with the naked eye.
There was hardly any TH-cam then, it was in 2006, I think.
The copper solvent I used was not effective enough Hoppe's No. 9.
The burnt-in from the gunpowder can be more stubborn to remove than the copper.
I contacted someone who competes in bench shooting who shoots a lot.
He had good stuff and showed me really well.
Of course I didn't like the solvent he used then Swets that smells.
As well as Shoter's Choise he used.
That fixed the problem with my rifle and I got around 30 millimeters again at 100 yards.
Now I have a borescope, I check with it, it is always most forward at the mouth, so if there is clean, the whole barrel is clean.
But I can't get hold of the best copper solver anymore that facilitated KG12.
Gosh, how efficient is it compared to everything else.
I remove burnt slag with either JB Borepaste or Iosso paste.
Solvent right now I'm running on Proshot copper IV.
It is decent, requires a little more arm strength and work.
It smells a little but not dangerous.
It also prevents rust so you can leave it in the barrel for a long time when you pause to do something else and then put it back on.
Hoppes works well for shotguns to dissolve powder residue and some plastic.
Too bad I can't get KG12 here in this country.
I got such a bottle from an acquaintance who lives in the USA.
Now it's my ex-girlfriend's best friend, so asking about something there doesn't work anymore.
I no longer use sweets and others with ammonia in them.
KG12 was much better than any so-called copper solvent I have tested.
Boretech I think we have here or Brownells maybe have it?
I have heard that many people are satisfied with it.
Then something good to dissolve gunpowder residue with.
Ballistol, there are too many here.
Easy to get hold of, but it smells like foot sweat in work shoes in the summer.
I will try a little with Brunox Turbo Spray again against the gunpowder.
I wasn't happy with it the last time I tried it.
Brunox Lub & Cor, on the other hand, is very good, provides good sliding, protects against rust very well and for a long time.
It doesn't smell anything either and is reasonably priced.
If you can get hold of it in the US, I recommend it.
Brunox Turbo Spray works well on loose dirt.
Hard sat a little less well than hoped and Turbo doesn't solve copper.
Carpenter’s trick: if two circles are the same size, measuring between both left edges gives you an on-center measurement. If you’re eyeballing with calipers, the better way is edge to edge. Better yet, the shot analysis feature on the Hornady app will calculate group size (or mean radius) from a photo but you need to pencil in reference marks 1” apart.
Measure the two farthest outside points of the group and deduct the caliber of the bullet.
Tip of the month, thanks Ron 😎😎👍
Great info! I had no idea.
Love Uncle Ron!
This is a vigh value video. Thank you!
I remember watching vhs tapes of ron before going hunting. Goat!!!!!! 🐐
I personally haven’t witnessed this. I have flipped back and forth on my 300 prc between 178 eldx and 175 lrx and didn’t notice a change no cleaning between these two, they were shot on the same day. Cleaning after though). I recently ditched it for a 225 eldm, then the 230 cutting edge lazer, then the 245 eol(no cleaning between these 3). I didn’t really see any accuracy dufferences. All except the 245 were hand loads. It’s just cool to see. Thanks for the video Jim!
I think it’s more of an issue of just copper fouling. I’ve had barrels that would build up copper very quickly but the type of bullet didn’t matter. I have switched back and forth from Barnes to cup and core without a problem
Just because it’s still shooting to your expectations doesn’t mean it wouldn’t shoot better if you did strip it. My 7rem mag will still shoot adequately for hunting doing a mix match of bullet types so I haven’t bothered to strip it, but it certainly doesn’t shoot the coppers as good as the lead cores. I will have to try it eventually but I’ve got hundreds of rounds of lead core of various types and I don’t like cleaning so its going to wait till I’ve ran out of the lead then I’ll strip it and do a test before I restock lol
Thanks for this info.
Scary reality! Good to know before hunting season
It’s not just Ron saying it, all the manufacturers of the monolithic coppers say exactly this so it shouldn’t be a surprise.
Great video, thanks man.
Thanks for sharing ! Cortina cleans his barrels down to bare metal and talks about it frequently ! He was using CLR But, was getting a lot of blow back from people ? Maybe could ruin some barrels , IDK Anyway , Thanks , something for all of us to keep in mind
CLR works, but Eric is using it only on stainless barrels. One would have to exercise caution on a blued barrel like you would with an ammonia based copper remover such as Sweets.
Thank you!!!
This has been a known phenomena since mono copper bullets came out. I would encourage you to become a member of Long Range Hunting forum and this information is readily available to you. Plus there are thousands of nuggets of info on there. It should be obvious that when accuracy goes south clean your gun.
Great to know, learned something new. I haven't tried that but I have two rifles I shoot solid coppers in and have switched around but if I ever do. Now I know.
My first thought was carbon ring. Great video!
Excellent video!
I use coppers and have done this for 20yrs after I shoot lead thru the same gun. Lead and copper react together at a different heat rate and creates instability thru inconstant transfer between metal of the barrel…I think. 🤓🍻
Maybe he can fix that other favorite rifle, the mossberg patriot 🤔
😂
Nah
Thanks to you both as this may have just solved the problem I have been having
Good to see you and Ron are mates. Love both of you guys
I experienced this years ago with my savage 110 shotting Noslers BT then using Cutting Edge bullets and when i went back to BT's it went from clover leafs to 3-4 inch groups. Only after i srubbed the barrel did i get my groups back.
This is good news. In Norway, we have to pass a shooting test every year before we go hunting. I use the Powerhead in the Tikka, but it's expensive ammo, so before the test I shot some fmj's just to check my sights were on target. So glad I now have something other than nerves and bad trigger pulls to blame for the spread.
Way to go Ron!
I recommend using the Gunwerks cleaning method to get ride of copper fouling using the KG products. From what I seen in this video you’re only cleaning the carbon fouling with patches.
Spomer is an encyclopedia of the shooting world.
Good info got to clean a gun and see if some Barnes tighten up!
Barnes has said this for years about cleaning between cup and core bullets and their bullets. The gilding metal is harder than the copper used in most all copper bullets. It was in their reloading manuals.
I experienced the exact same issue. Lead after copper.....no problem, but I need to clean the barrel real good before shooting Lead core bullets again.
Gotten to the point I clean my barrels with an electronic bore cleaner annually. Started doing that when I was messing with milsurp mosin rifles.
You don’t know what clean is until you use an electric bore cleaner.
I'm glad that mire creators are diving into accuracy and precision. Because not that long ago people were actually fighting about never cleaning their barrels and that is their tribe/Hill to die on. But the more people shoot and are obsessed with keeping their favorite rifle shooting how its "suppose" to, cleaning the barrel is a necessity and its actually possible to know exactly when it needs to be cleaned. Not such a taboo topic any longer. Clean them barrels and god bless Ron
I’m not an expert or anything, however I use to be on the never clean your barrel train until I started shooting a lot looking for .5 moa or better accuracy.
I’ve found cleaning my barrels every 100 rounds to bare metal and checking with a bore scope is the way. Then chasing it with a graphite lubricant such as lock ease. To get rid of having to shoot fouler shots.
I learn all of this from watching Eric Cortina. It hasn’t failed me the past 2 years.
This is great information to know as a handloader. I typically develop loads with multiple projectile types, and would hate to dismiss a load due to this weird phenomenon.
Changes in barrel harmonics due to the friction differences in the metals.
One of the better backfire videos I have seen
This is what happened to my savage 111 30-06 last year, have it shooting lights out again, almost gave up on it, next step was to trade it on a Bergara, lol. Thanks for the video
That is very interesting. Thank you.
This sounds like marketing for two barrels for each of our guns. Lol
Thanks for sharing.
I’ve been wanting to test this theory. I’m glad somebody did.
That’s good information to have.
Great tip!
I have experience this situation, and did not realize it.
Tip on measuring group size: measure to the extents of the two widest impacts, subtract 1 caliber size. There's your measured "centers".
This is probably why I’ve always heard copper doesn’t shoot well. I have some safe queens I was going to start accuracy testing with different loads. Now I will try some all copper loads and test them first.
Ron and Jim thanks. I’m a bit OCD with my testing so this info probably saved me a trip to the psyche ward. 😊
Great video just found you so I will watch more lol
Great information 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻🇺🇸
3:57 was not expecting that! Haha
I’ve learned this from Wilson Combat.
They absolutely recommended this in my 300ham’r hunting rifle if switching to their copper ME bullets
It makes sense in that the copper loads would have likely been developed in a fresh or new barrel rather than just using one test barrel for all rounds in a caliber, that this is only seen in the field. I wouldn’t be surprised to see manufacturers start recommending this on packaging.
I am having the same problem, Copper to lead back to copper accuracy issues. Winchester M70, thanks for great tip.
Make sure you clean right down to steel the whole length of the barrel.