Your Zero Is Off And You Don't Even Know It
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
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For hunting, cold bore zero is what matters. Shoot one shot every day and record its position. Compile about 10 and use that as your zero. Light profile barrels shift a lot and with very few shots in my experience.
I agree. It’s also valuable to know, whether your cold bore shot is different than the rest. Assume it is, unless you know otherwise.
I have a carbon barrel and I would never buy one again. It’s hard to get any kind of really good accuracy grouping unless you’re prepared to sit there all day. And forget about taking a shooting course because the amount of shots you need to take as specified time is infeasible with that type of barrel.
I’ve got a Savage ultralight with a carbon fiber barrel and it’s shooting 1/2” or better (on a 3 shot group).
I also have an Eric Cortina tuner brake on it, maybe that’s the difference?
I dont shoot hunting rifles much so Im assuming it may be more of an issue with the thinner barrels and such. On good heave match barrels I dont see cold bore shift. There is clean bore shift of course. Personally, after a good cleaning I will shoot 10 rounds or so to foul it up and leave it alone until accuracy starts to degrade. Rinse, repeat.. There was a time when i thought cold bore shift was happening and what i found out (for me) was that it was actually cold shooter. To test this i took another rifle with me each day and did my first 20 or so shots from that other rifle. Then i shot the rifle i had a recorded cold bore on. Amazingly enough, no shift. That made me realize i needed a lot more work on my body position mechanics. Others may have different experiences.
@@HazardousRob some are better than others for sure.
You're trying to mix hunting where cold bore groups only matter and shooting for groups. That is a fail there.
Facts!
I shoot PRS and when I have a zeroed rifle in Indiana and go to Northern Michigan or Southern Indiana or even 2 hours west in Illinois the following day, I have to re-zero because sometimes it's still off even if your equipment is not loose. Temperature, barometric pressure, density altitude, all kinds of stuff can affect your zero from one day to the next.
Have you tried the 4dof zero range function? I've been meaning to see if that works. I didn't realize what it was til recently.
What scope are you running?
@cijetovina You are correct! I had to look at my 4dof. Apparently, my memory sucks.
@patrioticguy1791 A rifle is never zeroed. Also the change of light will affect your pint of impact.
For sure it depends on what your goals are on hitting a target.
Spot on about temperature, barometric pressure and altitude!!!
thirty years ago I had purchased a rem model seven, it shot 1 in groups when new, sent it off to have the barrel action refinished with dull finish, was very shinny bluing. the gunsmith refinished the rings and mount also. put rifle back together and it still shot good for about 2 years deer hunting, less than ten shots total and four deer in the freezer, then every thing went to crap, 3-4 inch groups. glass bed the stock, no changed, it sat in the gun safe for twenty five years. recently I pulled the old classic rifle out of the safe and did a completed relook, come to find that a tally base was loose, I knew right away that was the culprit. lock tight the bases on and the rifle now shoots just under 1 inch groups. life is good again !
Right away...25 years later😂
Whats a tally base ?
@@jayblemsin4226 Talley is a company that makes quality scope rings and bases. Highly recommend.
@@jayblemsin4226Talley makes scope rings and mounts. 😊
I couldn’t imagine shooting my rifle less than ten times in over a two year span.
One point not mentioned is if you wear glasses. This can impact your parallaxes without realizing.
I never realized cold bore issues with my Model 70 or my Blazer. This usually is a thing with extremely thin barrels e.g. Kimber from my experience or can be caused by a barrel with improper stress relief due to incorrect heat treatment which should very very rare.
I like the turret stickers.
you, as well as others in the comments hit the nail on the head, that a cold bore shot is the most important to care about if you’re hunting. I’ll add to that thought. Here in maine, it’s common for guys to go zero a rifle in the middle of august when it’s 90 degrees and humid. they say, “yup we’re good.” throw it in the corner until November. then they get up in a treestand when it’s 15 degrees and dry. even if it was a “cold bore” zero back in august, that’s a 75-80 degree difference even on the first shot, not to mention how much the humidity difference has on a traditional wood frame. a lot of us are familiar with finished wood doors not closing correctly in the summer when it’s hot and humid, but working correctly most other days. combine that with an 80 degree colder barrel on the first shot, you definitely could be off. I tested this theory with my 1968 .270 win model 70. Zeroed it from a rest on a hot humid day. went out the next similar weather day and put 2 rounds through it to simulate cold bore. both shots were within 1 Moa at about 75 yards. 5 more shots, barrel was warm, not a whole ton of change. went up to about 1.5moa which could have been shooter error or temp change. but in those 7 shots across a 10 minute interval, the barrel temp increased only 40 degrees. few months later, picked a 13 degree frosty morning, let the rifle sit in the cold truck all night. first 3 shots, all closely grouped, about 1 moa, but were all off about 3-4” from the point of aim at 75 yards. after 6 shots, the barrel was up to 70-80 degrees and we’re back within an inch of the point of aim. So that resting temp change, a 200 yard first shot on a deer, would have been off 7-10” compared to a 90 degree humid day.
Cold bore is very real. The velocity on that first shot is different than the subsequent shots. You can let the rifle cool completely and shoot again... only to find that even though the bore/barrel is stone cold, there is no shift in impact. Go out the next day or next weekend, and the cold bore shift is back. This leads me to believe that the cold bore phenomenon has more to do with chemical changes in the fouling in the bore. We know that carbon fouling in the bore acts as a lubricant, that's why a clean bore shot has lower velocity due to higher friction, but what is happening to that carbon in relation to copper and other chemical deposits over 24 hours that doesn't happen in 1 or 2 hours? Maybe I'm smoking crack, but you decide whether or not this sounds plausible to you.
I think cold bore “shifts” come predominantly from people cleaning their barrel between range sessions or between zero’ing their gun. You scrub that barrel and you will absolutely have POI change for a shot or so.
You commonly hear cold bore shift discussions with fairly inexperienced shooters or casual shooters. I don’t ever hear precision shooters have issues with cold bore POI problems.
What about scope cant ?….I shoot out at a buddies property, but the ground isn’t always level where we shoot. I’m running Holland levels on all my scoped long guns now. You hit the light conditions point very well. I used to get frustrated sighting in, I’d shoot on a weekend, & get the gun dialled in during mid day. Then I sometimes ran out to the shooting range after work when the sun was going down, and my point of impact would change, not a lot, but enough to frustrate me. I soon started sighting in later in the evenings when the sun wasn’t hitting my scope at different angles and noticed my point of impact was never far off week to week.
this was the exact problem i had ,missed an ibex about 9,10inches down, at 350 meters, i rechecked everything at last it was the suppressor that was lil bit loose, i thought i cant be the problem so went to the range to check , you know what happened,
Umm…. That last one you demonstrated is parallax, and it’s why we have adjustable objectives. The higher the magnification, or the lower the f ratio on the main objective, the more pronounced the effect. Scopes that lack an adjustable objective usually have the parallax set to 100 yards.
That must be why California makes it a felony to possess a hearing protection device. They're really looking out for us!
Seriously??? 😐
@@HookLineSinger Seriously. It's also a felony to possess a "sniper scope," which is any optic with night vision or thermal capabilities. Just think how dangerous it would be if people could correctly identify targets in low-light conditions. California law makers are truly special.
@@newscoulomb3705 makes me thankful to be in Alabama!
You mean a suppressor? Cuz a hearing protection device could be headphones 💀
@@Zer0Edits00 I said what I said. 😉
I totally agree with you in that everyone wants to focus on group size, but none of that matters especially in a hunting rifle if it can't consistently hold zero.
Also. Lifting your head off the rifle and changing your cheek weld will cause accuracy issues. If your action and magazines are working properly, there is no reason to lift your head. Watch competitive shooters, they only lift their head when changing targets and distances.
Every time he shot it was the first shot...
Absolutely. Especially if your scope is a fix parallax scope, and your shooting a distance that's different from the factory setting. Most deer rifle fix parallax scopes are set at 100yds. But some shotgun, muzzleloader, or rim fire scopes may be 50, 60, 75 yards set. They all work ok for most deer hunting ranges in the southeast, but my paper punching, or coyote guns, all get adjustable parallax scopes.
@@Gunrunner223 I've had friends that could put their face and eye in the same exact place every time, I'm not that guy.
@@RealSB me neither
The cold bore shot from the Winchester was a dead ringer.. why would you fuck with that? All you’re doing at the point is heating up the barrel.. Obviously the POI is gonna open up significantly.
Man... thank you. It so easy to forget to tighten everything down. Had my rifle out to the range two weeks ago and it was perfect, went out yesterday and couldn't hit a thing. Just now checked it after watching this, my rear scope mount was loose, bipod was loose, and my suppressor was backed off about 1/8th of a turn!
I'd hate to see the condition of your car/truck. And the rest of us hage to share the road with you.
@@jasonshults368 My tahoe is immaculate. The problem is that I have to drive highway 4 to and from work. Look it up, it's in south Texas. One of the worst highways in the Untied States.
1. The more shots you take the more possible shooter error you include in your zero.
2. Your shot on your deer WILL BE cold bore, are you giving yourself enough time for the barrel and chamber to cool after each shot, probably 10 ish minutes? That’s pretty hard to do on a 10 plus shot Group isn’t it?
3. Unless you are hand loading or using extremely high cost ammo there is going to be some spread in your shots even if you have no shooter error at all, a ten shot group isn’t going to be drastically better at predicting the true zero than a five shot group, the round you fire on the deer might be exactly a perfect match for any one of those 3,5,,10,or 20 rounds that you zeroed with or not.
4. Having lived in Utah and shot (A LOT), in the west desert I noticed an issue on your video that you didn’t address. WIND! You are using paper targets with a cardboard backing, on the video you can see the target moving, it doesn’t have to move much to change the impact by a half an moa or more you pull the trigger one time and the wind is is pushing it away, the next two times it’s not your can get a lot of spread that is due to the wind not the scope/rifle.
If you put all these issues together you are going to have issues with your zero.
Like you and appreciate your knowledge, but sometimes all I hear inane babble
And describing something in words, that we just saw on video is superfluous. This is not radio. Too much yakking...
Unless they are top-tier rings, I line the bottom of half of my scope rings with glued-in 600 grit sand paper.
Please don't ever show yourself beating a scope up like that again. How about fell out of my chair! 😂
Thanks for the good info!
Everything starts with the shooter. If your shooting form is consistent then you go looking at equipment and other potential issues. We all must pay attention to pressure, humidity, wind, lighting, thermals, etc. At the end of the day the best rule to follow is that if you're not sure of where your shot impact will be, don't take the shot. There's nothing wrong with an ALL STOP if things are wrong. In fact, that's the safest thing to do. Great video. Thanks for all the work you and the crew (family and friends) have done to provide these videos and information for us so we can all learn.
Do you ever lap your rings??
No, he doesn't. Nor does the teacher read the comments. One-way info flow, from expert to novice, you know...
Jim, great video. One thing that I would love to see addressed is the condition of the bore during the cold bore shot. I would love to see your advice on storing a gun (clean barrel, dirty barrel, or an oiled barrel and pushing a few clean patches through.. etc). This might be an explanation to why the shots after the first shot seem to be more consistent (oil is gone and barrel is fouled). Competition shooters could just foul the barrel with a few shots before competing, but for hunters this often is not an option and certainly it isn't ideal. Would be an interesting topic to address, and maybe combine it with a barrel cleaning video (should you clean a bore to bare metal, should you keep it consistently 'fouled-clean' or maybe shoot x amount of shots and then clean and foul the barrel and never touch the barrel until accuracy drops off again). Lots of things to think about :)
Mostly clean but don't clean it so hard with ammonia that it reveals eliminates the copper filling up those pores
That’s also what I’ve heard with regard to not cleaning out the copper fouling. What I’ve heard reported is the muzzle velocities will actually go up a little bit with the initial deposition of copper.
Worth noting on Jim’s last point with shooter position is the angle of the gun with respect to vertical, which if not eliminated will throw your shots around a bit.
Easy solution: don't clean your barrel...ever
Plus shooter error !
My thoughts are if a hunting rifle only, clean the bore every 20-40 shots. This could take a few seasons; so a patch of light RemOil down the bore after hunting and put her away. Remove the stock if it got wet and address that issue. Rifle should be gone over just like you would a vehicle before a long trip. Check that everything is tight. Then hit the range and check zero. Then don’t clean it until again 20-40 shots. Many rifles can be a little different. Most rifles shoot a little better once a bit fouled. However, your rifle will be cold when you shoot at your deer/elk, so knowing how your rifle shoots cold and fouled is a good thing.
Hahaha lost it when you started hammering that scope
My thoughts were I wonder if Leopold warranty will cover it. 😂
I always wonder as a white tail hunter isn't the first cold bore shot the most important as usually the first shot after hitting your stand is the most important
A lot of this has to do with subpar scopes and mounting methods. People don’t realize how many >1k scopes lose zero on an 8 inch drop (Leupold, vortex, etc) Buy quality and research beforehand.
Could you please reccomend me a quality brand except for Swarovski
Bro at 12:22 in the Video you can see Jesus over your shoulder. I love that Christus statue. That warms my heart. ❤🤍💙
solid informational video as usual! Ordered some turret tags - what a great idea...that I wish I would have thought of. LOL
Great video, I may have missed it but I didn't see anything on a fouled barrel vs clean bore, this can cause the first shot fliers.
please do a segment on why/how the direction of the light source changes POI. It makes o sense to me.
With open sights I can see how light direction shifts the apparent zero, but not with a scope.
Its common knowledge that pencil barrels are less accurate and shift after heating up. Heavy barrels are more accurate and have little to no shift after heating up. Three shot group adjust the scope then check and adjust another Day. Patience is a virtue
All things being equal, sure, a pencil barrel will have a higher chance of being less accurate (or precise) than a heavy barrel, but not inherently so. Same with heat, a pencil barrel will have a larger chance of heat opening up the group, but a high quality barrel that is properly stress relieved shouldn’t have a POI shift.
So yeah, in common practice you’re correct, but a lot has to do with barrel quality.
@@jimyeats this company says their Sporter barrels are expected to produce 1.5" three shot groups at 100 yds. I'm getting 1" cold bore and about 2.5" warm. So as a cold bore it is good enough for me but since it opens up so much when it heats up then it's no good for target only hunting. Makes sense!
Traditional pencil barrels are absolutely notorious for shifting zero. I have a stress relieved pencil barrel from criterion that doesn’t. When it gets warm, the group sizes open, but the center doesn’t move. It doesn’t take very many rounds for that to happen either.
Pencils barrels are fine if you have a good barrel like a tikka. Most just aren’t sighting in with a large enough sample size and getting their guns true cone of fire for a true zero. Stop shooting 3 shot groups!
The second point is really fascinating. It’s call the Law of Large numbers in stats. You’ll know when you’ve shot enough rounds to zero when the center of the groups no longer moves a significant distance. Great video!
I have zero interest in knowing the answer to this question for a big game hunting rifle. The first shot is by far the most important, and maybe up to two after that matters much less. Some rifles wander a lot after getting hot, some don’t.
@@phild9813this assumes the human doesn't overestimate their skill and has a rock solid platform.
@@phild9813 Basing your accuracy on one shot will not tell you anything about the accuracy of your first shot. If you need your first shot to be on the money, you should base it on an even larger group. You can do this while allowing your rifle to cool off. It’s about probability not luck.
Really appreciate your contribution. Smacked my forehead and…..of course. Also remembered that data should not be anally extracted !! Otherwise it’s simply so much B.S.
Hornady podcast #50 on group size is very interesting. Basically, you should shoot a 10-20 round group and use the center of the group as the center of your zero. and that group should be what you consider your rifle actually capable of.
10-20 shots? Maybe for Fudds. I use a 750 shot zero.
I free floated the barrel of my Ruger m77 and bedded the action in the stock because it was shooting wild. Tried all kinds of different torque on the stock screws to no avail.
Finally realized it was just a piece of wood and sanded the forend away from the barrel and bedded the action.
It really helped the rifle a lot.
The variability from shooting from a bipod vs resting on a bag is much less than it was.
Will find out next month if i drew an elk tag this year or not. Deer tag for sure.
Ive done the same with my 1995 model, Ruger m77 mark II 270. Even with handloads, about 2" inch was as good as it would do. Bedded the stock, floated the barrel, lightened the trigger to 2.2 lbs, played with different torques on the stock screws, and only got it down to 1.25" inch. My theory is, before the Ruger American, savage axis type budget rifles, that shoot deadly accurate, most rifle manufacturers didn't put a lot into accuracy. And rightfully so. Us hunters didn't either. I knew a lot of guys that 3 shots hitting a pie plate at 100, was good to go! Now that budget guns shoot 1/2 moa out the box, those higher end guns have to shoot well also. I've got a new savage 110 timberline in 243win, that with handloads shoots 3/8" all day. And a Heinz 57 AR-15 with a larue tactical 20" barrel in 223 whylde, that shoots better than any bolt gun I've ever even seen shot ! Cold bore will be 3/8" from the next 5, that are all in one hole. Like a 0.2 group. Times are good for accurate rifles.
@@Gunrunner223Have a question if ya don’t mind, So I’m wanting to put a 223 wylde barrel on mine as well, just curious, Did you keep same bolt carrier? Or did you match the barrel with a new bolt? and did you change out your buffer spring, and use a certain weight? Thanks for any info.
@@brandonbelchersr9496 you don't have to change anything. A 223 Wylde, 5.56, or 223 rem, are the same bolt face. I swapped alot of stuff, but to function, the barrel is all you have to change. I highly recommend larue tactical barrels. They have amazing reviews. And I've never seen accuracy like I'm getting. Even bulk brass fmj shoots 1.5 inch groups. Quality factory ammo, shoots 3/4 or better. Every handloads I've tried, from 50gr vmax, 52 eldm, 55 vmax, 55 blitz king, 62 sierra HP, 69 sierra match king, have all shot under 1/2" inch, and most shot 3/8" or better. Never seen anything like it. I did swap my trigger out to a timney $99 single stage 3 lb . My barrel is floated. Hope you find one you like.
@@Gunrunner223 thanks a lot, very well rundown. At least I know now I’m good on everything but my barrel, which will be a larue barrel.👌🏼 Thanks again and have good one..
@@brandonbelchersr9496 absolutely.
🇺🇸
Suppressor or brake are just acting as a barrel tuner. Barrel harmonics.
Yes. When a muzzle device is loose, the harmonics are disrupted and variable.
What did I learn today? Don’t buy Winchester
I mean :P, you have a point 😅
Hey Jim,
When culling deer, after 2-3 shots we check the mod. Although, it happens you drop 4-8 in one salvo but try to not rush and if possible to keep in mind the heat is building and mod could shift.
I am lucky in that my mod never moves when culling.
You must use a heat shield/cover on your moderator, or you might regret grabbing it after 4-8 rapid shots.😮🔥
@@williamgaines9784 it's just wrapped in nice camo tape. It really doesn't happen often. The spigot mods seem worse for it
If you're leaving your gun barrel exposed to the sun it WILL heat up. That steel will absorb a bunch of heat from the sun EVEN on a cool day. Keep the rifle in the shade always. I've been out on a 50 degree day with zero wind and set my rifle out in the sun. In no time the barrel is VERY hot from the sun shining on it directly. You zeroed your rifle in direct sunlight in the middle of the day without shade, but then you take that shot of a lifetime and miss because you're hunting at first light or at sunset while it's still legal to shoot.
The zero isn't "moving". All of that was within the cone of dispersion for that rifle and ammunition combination. Hard to watch
Looks to me like he doesn't know how to shoot off a bench. If I have shots 5 inches apart on my 100 yard target, something serious is wrong. Even the bargain rifles shoot far better than that.
Cold Bore is 100% real.... BUTTTT not what most people think anymore. It was a huge and very real problem for hunting rifles and pencil profile barrels in the 60's and 70's. By the 80's the cold bore shrunk down to less than 2" shift after X number of shots. Thats the second bit of it. Cold Bore refers to the first set of shots before the stresses in the steel change the harmonics and muzzle point to their warm state. On my Marine Corps Issued M16 I knew I had about 15 rounds of rapid fire before it started pulling a little right (2009 manufacture FN upper). This however was less of a pull than the accuracy from round to round.
Modern stress relieving of barrels cause less than an moa of shift from cold to warm state and good barrels don't even have that much. When measuring out a batch of match grade sub moa barrels a few years ago I measured the mechanical cold bore (shooter removed, locked in vice, scope set with vibration damping glue, etc) at about 1.5 cm at 100 yards. Most short action had a thermal shot capacity of about 5 rounds and intermediate cartridges had about 10+.
It only really matters when hunting vs rapid fire, life or death vs plinking.
... a HUNTING RIFLE is predicated on 1st shot accuracy in hitting and humanely dispatching live game animal targets ... a RANGE RIFLE is predicated on shooting as small as possible multiple shot groups on paper targets ... two different tools for two different purposes
I had the same issue with the suppressor not tightened all the way. So now I have witness marks to prevent that.
Just use a good mount system?
@@mrs.vasquezz I'm using Yhm phantom qd it works great when tight all the way.
Let the rifle cool for an hour and then take another single shot. If its anywhere close to your first hole, that is what you zero too. The first shot in hunting is likely the only one that matters. Don't care about the 3rd or 15th. If the 2nd round is way off, there is another issue with the gun, scope, or shooter that needs addressed first. Just my opinion on it
I think that a accuracy test using the same rifle, with different price point rings, would be really interesting.
Great video I always learn stuff when I watch your content
RE: loose suppressor I had that happen with a new XPR I was zeroing. Thought I had a great start at 50yds moved back to 100 and it was off the page. Frustrated I gave up because of time. As I was putting the gun up I saw the suppressor was loose.
Next trip I started at 100 and it was zeroed. GREAT SUCCESS!!
People may be confusing clean bore vs cold bore. I have had many different rifles and especially mussel loaders that shoot horrible when they are clean. So maybe what some would consider a fouling shot is being blamed on cold bore
2:00 Last time at the range, I had this exact thing happen. I was shooting a new barrel and getting decent groups. Then I started noticing my point of impact shift. At first I thought it was just the barrel settling in. Then I was letting the barrel and suppressor cool down between shot strings. I reached up to feel how hot the suppressor was and noticed a tiny bit of play. I re tightened it (maybe a 1/10 of a turn) and then magically my original POI came back to the original spot. I learn this lesson first hand that day. Now I check the suppressor for snugness often
I tried using a wet wash cloth to help cool the barrel down " between " shots. And.... the first two shots are off compared to the other following shots. Because the cloth keeps the barrel nearly the same " warm " temp. Im really not sure why more shooters dont use a wet towel to cool the barrel ????? The barrel never gets warm to the touch.....even after 12 shots
What about barrel whip because of the weight of the suppressor?
A cold bore shot from a gun is like a Lupus diagnosis from a Dr. It's the result of years of testing and ruling out everything else, or someone trying to shortcut the troubleshooting process. I almost don't believe in true cold bore accuracy variation. I hold the possibility could happen, but I've found that it's always something else. The biggest two suspects are too much carbon in the barrel and incorrectly torques action screws. In a semi like an AR, it's not the action screws but something impinging on the barrel's free float. Then I look at the shooter and their stability from shot to shot. I know some very high end competition shooters that will tell you the cold bore shots are outright myth. Second, suppressors don't come loose if they have a properly made adapter. Direct thread cans come loose. Their mounting face is almost perpendicular to the angle of the threads and so clip during expansion and contraction. As soon as you put an angular mounting face from the adapter to the angular face on the suppressor, it can't expand and contract loose unless just plain left loose. The angular pressure against the threads prevents them fro slipping, think of it as a wedge effect. Afraid the can is going to come loose? Use a can with an adapter.
Shoter position is crucial in point of impact. In 100-200yds hunting situation is irelevant. BUT on long range or high stakes.....like Olympic shooting is HUGE..... alot of drills and exercises are focusing on repeatability of postion
love your channel, canadian subsciber. im 55m, a gun nut, as far as canada goes. i have a 7 mm rem mag. i customized in 1990ish.
i ts a remington 700 bdl., 7mm rem mag. i traded out wood stock for a fiberglass/ plastic stock. idk. took off the front sights, didnt like the screw holes, so cut off two inches. had it recrowned, trigger and bolt work done. also nickel plated it.
so i lost 100' fps per inch , turning it into a 280, but shot reloads, getting back my velocity. also i glass bedded the action mysrelf, when i was 20ish. reloaded fire formed 160 nosler partitions and put 3 shots in a quarter off a tailgate with minimul support, probably a rolled up coat. maybe its the shooter. dont understand why your challenge was so hard. all id need to do would be adjust my zero from 1" high to zero high.
anyways .....love your channel
Lap you rings!
There is no perfect solution. What works for me is a 5 round grouping at distance X, followed by a confirmation 5 round grouping at distance Y (for example X could be 100m and Y could be 200m). In terms of scope mounting, with your Sig Cross (or anything with a pic rail) - I avoid stand alone rings and just use high quality cantilever mounts. Moreover, any scope I mount is levelled and screws/nuts tightened to manufacturers spec. Also, I have a DOPE notebook which is invaluable. This recipe works well for me.
Lets solve this, there are many factors involved, proper barrel break in is a must, you must foul the bore after cleaning ( depends on barrel # of rds ) weather cold vs hot, sun vs no sun, humidity you get the idea. Considering most moa rifles have composite stocks, excellent scope mounts, and excellent scopes, what could go wrong VELOCITY + WIND. If you zero your rifle at 60 degree,s and hunt at - 20 degrees there is going to be a velocity change due to change in powder temp. I have 1 long range moa rifle thats always moa it weights 18 lbs, strait contour 36" barrel, single shot, 1oz trigger in 26 nozler pushing a 140 grn nosler accubond at 3481 fps vel. I hunt in 20 to - 30 degree temps at a constant 1600 elevation and I keep my ammo in my shirt pocket next to me. Do I carry that dammed thing hunting hell no, i carry a pre 64 win model 70 30/06 with a at best 2.5 moa group kills them dead at hunting range all the time in any weather at any temp, there you go.
Absolutely COLD barrel zero if HUNTING and I mean cold wherever you hunting at. It might take days to accomplish. But I’ve never had a really expensive barrel.
Highjacking your comment...back fire boss:for your tiktok challenge i pick who the ...whom that can shoot.1/2 M.O.A w/ the cheapest rifles and factory ammunition in the market!
I would say ammo if you're using ANY factory ammo. The light thing I definitely agree with, experienced it myself. Cold bore for me depended on how I cleaned my barrel. My cold bore shots are spot on now. BTW, I'm shooting a gas gun in 600yd F-TR and do pretty well with it.
Really benefit from your great vids……thank you!
Please allow me to ask an ancillary question: what power of a spotting scope is required to determine shot placement at 200 & 300 yards?
Thanks again.
So I just bought a new boydstock last year to put on my Thompson center venture 7mm 08 and there was so much play in the barrel lug area that you definitely had to glass bed it! Even though I was getting good groups still in the glass better too much play too much play in the holes for the auction screws, so I finally got that done now as of today, May 10th or whatever it is. Mother's Day 2024 and this week at some point I will get it out and recite it in, and I'll go from there which I went to a different load for that gun. Also with Barnes ttsx bullets 140 grain. I put a new scope on it last year which is the Leupold 3 to 15x44 Leopold brings and bases and, I cleaned all the copper out with copper solvent. Which I was getting 3/4 in and then 1/2-in groups but I thought I could do better with that bullet and with the new powder I was using CFE 223.
Check mounts and trigger pressure too high, pulling some shots. I zeroed my Savage model 12 with custom heavy barrel and many mods to 1/2 inch five group, then drove 3 hours to a deer hunt. The mounts (rings) fitted by the gunsmith moved by the time we got there. When i got home, i found he had not bedded the pic rail and didn't torque the mounts. I use a case too! Cold bore is bullshit. I've been an f class shooter for years and its best warm with heavy barrel. Cold bore only affects thin barrels. Biggest issue people forget is custom trigger, trigger weight (1.11-1.15) and plenty of dry fire practice.
Haha! The Monstrum Tactical rings are most likely problem on your Sig Sauer. I have been experiencing same issue with my Zastava 300 win mag. I have been scratching my head for the last two months and wondering what the problem is, tried three different scopes using two different sets of Monstrum Tactical rings. Ordering Warne rings right now.
Question? Could the same shots be made just as accurate without the suppressed barrel, why add the liability and chance of shooting low. Is the suppressed barrel that beneficial in a hunting situation where your shooting 300 - 600yards. Asking because I've never used a suppressed barrel.
Honest question?
Find 0, send 10 to15 more to validate check it once if i can without spooking any game .... note hunting AR's (Air Rifles) don't have a cold bore shift just elemental effects
Your rifle's zero will always wander...I'm quite surprised you don’t know this.
Theres so much which affects your zero - Light, temperature, time of the day, shooting position ext. Thats why when we shoot a match, we always zero beforehand, even on our home range where the rifle is sighted in. Sometimes you are lucky and the zero hasn’t changed, but most of the time there is a click or two adjustment to make.
I would very much like to see a distribution graph of the 5 days worth of shooters group size and zero error. Seems like everyone thinks they are 1 MOA all day long shooters, but judging by the video most people are 4 MOA all day shooters with a 3" zero error.
As for the cold bore shot, Erik Cortina and Speedy were talking on a podcast. I think it was Cortina that said he sent a puff of graphite spray down the barrel after cleaning and it resulted in his first shot grouping with the rest a.k.a no cold bore POI change. If this is repeatable, perhaps it's really CLEAN bore shift.
You seriously can't show the tightening/loosening of a can, but you can show the actual can?
Is that just a you thing, or every firearm channel?
(I ask because I've seen people thread on cans many times on YT vids. Some with millions of followers...)
Can anybody provide some physical (i.e. physics) explanation regarding the supposed need to account for refraction that depends on the sun's position relative to you and the target? This sounds false, but I'd like to hear an explanation. The light coming from the target follows a very straight line through the bore axis of the scope's aperture (normal to the lens surface) into your eye. What is ambient light coming from the side going to do to that? It sounds like you should also believe you need to throw the frisbee at picnics at slightly different angles depending on the position of the sun.
Hi, when you talk about a gun, please state the calibre of the gun as well. Not just the make of the gun.
You should call Cortina, Who tee who, Speedy, Jack Neary. F class John and Gavin. And have them chime in on cold bore. I will give you the day to day shooting in ST. George ,Texas and Utah or anywhere one shoot from day to day with limited temp variations. Now sight that same rifle in on your 80 degree day and head to the hills of Utah for a nice 10 degree day and shoot the same group. Cold bore is everything in a hunting rifle. Was your ammo 100 deg. in the truck or 10 in the mag. on top of some remote mountain?
But have you ever had a cheap PSA AR and a cheap crossfire scope stay sub moa as your farm truck gun? All this geeking out and could be this and could be that, but I know every time I pull it out from the back seat, it’s going to hit where I aim. Could I put all 5 rounds into the circle every time? Probably not but it’ll still be a sub moa group at least touching the circle and that’s what most of us in the real world care about. Never has a coyote or badger gotten up and walked off because of a 5 shot zero that may have been a tick off of perfect. Would I trust it past 300-350, absolutely not but that leads back to his video about real world ethical hunting distances. Yes I have a prs gun that is a 1500m gun and I am very proficient with but I’d never be comfortable shooting anything past 400 yards just because of the variables and what all can happen and affect a clean shot and kill at longer distances
I have just tried to purchase some of those Turret Stickers but it doesn't look like you ship to New Zealand. Could you somehow change the shipping so that I can buy some?
Thanks in advance.
Leighton
Scopes are a pain in the ×××! I hunted with open all my younger years and considering my deer kills were 50-120yds im taking an open sight along with my scoper this year. How many of you guys can get the 8 in. circle at 200yds with open sights. Its handy to able to.
Not sure if it applies to centerfire but if i remember right there was a couple people that proved the "cold bore" shift in 22lr was moisture related. They could do a breath of air through a straw into the chamber and down the barrel and the shift was gone. I think Josh on pursuit of accuracy had a video on it. I think some of the center fire shift is cold shooter and positioning of youre face and eye behind the scope
I was shooting my Santa Barbara 98 in 270 win . . The first shot Cold Bore hit the X in the ten ring. The following shots were all over the center. What the hay! I discovered that the mounting screw had loosen . I put these mount on with lock rite in 1986. So for 37 years the lock rite held up . I have since placed a rail on the action applied lock rite. Will it last another 37 years? I won't know .
Something I might have found on cold bore shift. One thing I do is take out the bolt and let the stock face the wind to take out the smoke before it cools down.
With the bolt closed it can create a fine layer of carbon from the smoke coming back from the suppressor which might cause cold bore shift.
It would be good if you could test it that way. Will look forward to seeing if it works.
Greetings from Ireland Dave.
Got an aac sdn6 and some of the 51t flashinders don't provide perfect lockup. A wobbling suppressor will really trash your accuracy as you have shown.
The first thing I'd do is get off that RICKETY PORTABLE TABLE !!!!
And a target stand that doesn't sway in the wind.
Never heard about sunlight changing your zero. So, would a sunshade eliminate that possibility?
Also, I now lap my rings after frustration with scopes moving after mounting and first firing. Radially rotated and mostly likely from incorrect ring alignment. That is another potential zero problem
Ambient temperature and powder temp tend to cause a shift in both velocity and point of impact.
I'm a mechanical engineer, so I overanalyze physics. When I watch shooting videos, it's obvious that the shoulder contact to the stock is below the center of the barrel, so there must be a tendancy to lift the end of the barrel. If I designed a rifle, I'd raise the stock, and therefore the scope so the recoil doesn't affect the aim. That would also put the scope closer to following the bullet drop (assuming you added a tiny shim under the bottom ring). I think when I was a kid (Leopold? Redfield?) made a scope mount that would let you look below the scope to use the iron sights for close shots. Might even allow adding a mini-Red Dot under the scope. Thoughts?
I'll have you know that my zero is perfect. I just checked it.
Unfortunately, some idiot at the target factory printed the square in the wrong place. I know, I couldn't believe it either... what are the chances?
I generally agree with cold bore being cold shooter. Also, zeros shifting due to variability in shooting technique is pretty frequent as well. If guns have a “cold bore” shot, I usually just assume it is a bad barrel. Not worth messing with and swap it.
your last point I think is 90% the problem. Parralax, grip and canting the rifle will throw any zero off. Especially when you take a gun out one day come back a couple weeks later and it's off, well it's usually the shooter, I know I do this lots .
I have a Ruger M77 Mark II .30-06 and I have only had to re-zero my scope on this rifle once in 30 years of hunting. And I have hunted with it every year for 30 years. I even have a fairly cheap scope on it. It is a Bushnell Trophy 3-9X40mm. The reason I had to re-zero is because I lost a screw gromet my sling and the rifle fell off my shoulder and the end of the barrel hit the gravel road!! OUCH!!
Hi, just a curiosity question from an Australian subscriber after watching the first few minutes. Was there any noted velocity change between a firmed up moderator vs the slightly loosened moderator ? Kind regards Trevor
So a barrel is a tuning fork that vibrates and changes POI with Heating unless its a heavy stress relieved Match barrel ... So multiple shots IMO isn't really giving you much information on a sporter barrel after 3 shots
I totally agree with checking the tightness of your suppressor often . However 15 or 20 shot groups for hunting rifles ? If that is ( good ? ) why not 30 , 40 or 50 shot groups ??? The only shot that is important in a hunting rifle is the first shot from a cold bore , the 15 or 20th shot from a hot fouled bore tells you nothing about the first shot from a cold bore . Try 2 shot groups from a cold bore then let it ( completely cool ) then 2 more adjusting as necessary to get the impact point where you want it then your rifle is zeroed for hunting !
Respectfully I noticed that you lift your head between every shot. The cheek position often comes down in a different position with different pressure and subsequently different aim point. If one starts fiddling around with the rifle to try and 'fix' things, it's a nightmare. A consistent frozen cheek position with good disciplined trigger control will pull the groups and zero right in. Not the fault of the gun. Operator error.
I had an issue one time with altitude change. I was zeroed at 6000’ and traveled for a hunt and was at 2600. I normally hunt above 9000. So my scope wasn’t off a little it was way off. After that I learned that if you travel for a hunt you have to hit the range when you get there.
Your target is moving 1/2 MOA haha. Only recently found your channel but I love it.
If the shots were actual time on tip 2 you overheated the crap out of the barrel ? The first shot is most important if it’s consistent on cold bore shots each time you shoot.
Also cold bore shot is real on my .243 using 90 gr Speer hot core. If zeroed on cold bore first shot is dead on. The rest of the group moves 1-1/4” to the left after cold bore shot. I switched to 100 gr Sierra Pro hunters. This doesn’t happen. Have retried the hot core several times always repeats the problem.
Great video but I think there’s always going to be a big question mark at the end of it all. Without a properly tuned load your always going to see shifts in poi barometric pressure and temp mess with harmonics. Why else would benrest guys glue there actions in and reload on the line. Your videos hopefully make folks aware of knowing there limits and more practice will help them be more successful. Thanks
5:32; there's a huge difference between "not tiny little groups", and having a target that looks like you were using a shotgun
I wonder if what people call cold bore is not because the bore is cold, but because the bore is well lubricated and clean? I have often fouled the bore with one shot before going out hunting, just to eliminate this factor. But then I always worried about getting a rusty bore by the end of the season!
Do people even understand how to find the group center? That is, taking the average location of all the shots in the x direction, and taking the average location of all the shots in the y direction? Do people use a level when mounting their targets on the target backer, AND use a level on their gun, just to ensure the elevation turret does not make any windage changes, and the windage turret does not make any elevation changes?
Zeroing on flat land (low altitude) and then hunting on a mountain will do some pretty significant shifts. Basically every factor you can enter in a ballistics program, can affect the zero. And what about the temperature of your ammunition?
I used a spreadsheet to make a ballistics program using Art Pejsa's equations. I used two columns, the first being the environment where I zeroed the rifle, and the second being the environment where I was hunting. It's handy to know how your zero is going to change when you go up a mountain or the barometric pressure changes. I even threw in the Coriolis effect although it is too small an effect to get excited about.
Your zero, statistically speaking, will not shift that much from the 10th to the 15th shot, not possible. Your zero is established at 10th shot, and even much earlier. You are most likely looking at heat or wind change issues at that point.
What do you think about a “clean bore” impact shift. In other words, have you noticed a different impact point with a clean barrel as opposed to after fouling shots?
Thanks and love all of your content!
It’s mostly shooter input that makes groups open or zeros to appear to wander on a great rifle. Also atmospheric pressure, wind, temperature and humidity will affect the zero. Ammo is also not perfect. It is impossible for a human to put the exact amount of pressure on the cheek weld, same pressure on your shoulder, or your grip, much less trigger pressure. You can have a 1 lb trigger and crack it at 1 lb or 4 lbs. Then as he said your eye can be a touch off of center up, down, left or right. Most people don’t shoot nearly enough of conscientious practice to be remotely good enough to wring out a great rifle’s accuracy.
Very interesting. I’m guessing the same would hold true with a muzzle break. Video idea! Ha