EPIC: The Musical - The Thunder Saga (FULL ALBUM) | Reaction!
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Watch What It Do Dave React To EPIC: The Thunder Saga
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So because of your Google, you know that Scylla has 6 heads. When Odysseus said "But Scylla has a cost" and had Eurylochus light up 6 torches, what was happening there was the cost. It's possible to make it through Scylla's lair mostly safely, because Scylla accepts sacrifices. The ONLY way to get past Scylla effectively is to basically sacrifice six people so each head is occupied. That's why Odysseus had Eurylochus light six torches; he was giving Scylla easy targets so the rest of them would be safe. Also, fun fact, though I'm not 100% sure about this, but I believe Eurylochus was meant to be one of those sacrifices, but he either dropped it or passed it on to someone else.
Eurylochus was the only one who could figure out Odysseus was sacrificing the men, so he probably tried to give him a torch for that reason
@@Blossom319-fx7tgno, it was because he was trying save other men and didn’t realize how Scylla was picking who to eat till he’d already accidentally killed another man
holy crap! Thank you!! I didnt realize he sacrificed 6 of his crew! DAMN!! That hits harder than it did the first time i listened to it!
Depends on if you're talking about the book or the musical. The musical doesn't have any hints as to if he was meant to or not. Seeing as Ody tries to spare Eurylochus later I'm reluctant to believe he was trying to kill him. In the book, the six men who die, die randomly. Ody had intended on fighting Scylla but what is the man to do against a giant sea lady. The mutiny in the book follows because Ody knew 6 of his men would die if he went to Scylla/Charybdis, as did the crew.
I don't recall a mutiny in the book. After the underworld trip he goes back to Circle who gives him this route and she says to go towards Scylla because lossing 6 is better than his entire crew. Odyseusses didn't tell his crew because he thought he could run the middle line but in the end had to move towards Scylla to save the ship allowing her to snatched 6 of the crew.
The piano tune at the end of “Thunder Bringer” is the tune from the song “My Goodbye”. It’s the tune when Athena tells Odysseus “one day you might understand”, because it’s in this moment he understands what Athena was saying to him. 😭
@@MarinaXLovely It was driving me nuts because my brain recognized that it was a motif/phrase from another song, but literally stuttered trying to think of which! Thanks so much, it was bugging me!
The fact that you can hear the 6 men getting eaten as Scylla is singing. Some are more muted than others, but you can hear all six screams 😭😭😭
Love this and the detail of the “cap-tain!” In ruthless during the final ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves chant 🤩
After the livestream, Jay revealed what the first four lines the chorus at the end of "No Longer You" were saying. "Siren song, Scylla throat, mutiny, lightning bolt"
@@disableddragonborn omg this is insane !
@@alessakagamine5747 I went back to the song, and now it sounds so clear. "How did I hear "mutiny" as "you could be"? It's clearly mutiny!" 😂
Explanation from the original story of the Odyssey
Odysseus had to sail between a fine line, between Chabrydis and Scylla. Chabrydis would be certain death. Scylla was more manageable. In the original story, Scylla takes 6 men off of Odysseus' boat and he attempts to fight her which sends them to the island of the sun God.
Homer and Jorge are telling different stories. And this isn't a bad thing. Homer was wanting to tell an exciting story
Jorge has explained that he is trying to send a different message. Which is that you can not protect the things you love without a balance of ruthlessness and mercy. At the start, Odysseus was too merciful. He has now become too ruthless. In this version, Odysseus sets up 6 torches with a man holding each as a peace offering to Scylla to bid them passage. Doing what it took to survive. Odysseus knew full well what he was doing
Yes! The balance with E-man and Polities was what kept Odysseus in that balance. Odysseus listen to both men and found a balance. As soon as polities was gone, Odysseus went way too far the “open arms” way out of grief for his friend. Now out of fear and grief for his other men, Odysseus has gone the other direction. In case of Circe, being kind was a good thing. If he had been ruthless with her, she wouldn’t have turned his men back from pigs nor helped him get to the Underworld. And technically being kind to the cyclops wasn’t the issue. It was his stupid Pride and Hubris. But in case of the infant, as horrible as that is, being ruthless was really the only choice to save everyone he loves. I feel like with Scylla, he could have used dummies or something. Odysseus really has just gone off the deep end of ruthlessness.
@@TheBre1491 1) They did not have material to make dolls 2) I doubt it would have worked
I think the best option would be to do as Odysseus did in the original, explain to his companions and try to fight Scylla and defend himself, even if all 6 men end up dying, at least They would not have been sacrifices that Odysseus openly gave
3)The correct option with the cyclops was to be ruthless, Firstly, because the mercy that Odysseus gave him was not real mercy, he left him blind and in a cave to die of hunger, being humiliated. In ancient Greece, being disabled was worse than death.
And secondly, there are versions of the odyssey where he does not tell him his name and the Cyclops still guesses it through a prophecy, he must have killed him as Athena told him.
Athena may not be the most empathetic goddess but she is the goddess of wisdom IN WAR, if you are in a battle and she tells you to kill, listen to her.
The Cyclops was a son of Poseidon, it would not be difficult for him to know who left him like this, the correct option was to kill him.
There has to be a balance, analyze things well, Odysseus did not forgive the Cyclops out of pity or for being intelligent, he did it out of revenge and pride, (which in the original odyssey, by yelling at him, he lose More men Because the cyclops throws rocks at him and destroys more ships)
The only problem is that the Cyclops blunder had nothing to do with being too merciful: he was too prideful, and dumb, revealing his name and country. Had he left as "nobody", his wits would have let him be merciful at no personal cost.
@@TheBre1491 He could've used the sirens as bait too, I don't think Scylla would've been picky about eating them, he was too blinded by his past experience with the Cyclops to realize the obvious strategy at hand
@@TheBre1491 Yea he could have used the sirens tied up and without their tails and tongues instead as well.
"Don't tell me this is the last song, I need more" is the exact sentiment I had first listening! Crazy how it sucks you in. Also yes! The pride Zeus is refering to is Ody's.
Oh both Ody and himself. Because Zeus knew that it was not Ody who killed the cow and yet he gives it the worst weight.
I didn't understand the pride part, can you elaborate?
@syedshakaibanwar2698 Jay's mentioned before that in writing the lyrics for "Thunder Bringer" He wanted to establish Zeus's character and mindset and to do that part of what he did was use the "Pride is a Damsel in Distress" metaphor specifically targeting Ody's hubris and in reference to Zeus being an overwhelming force that can and will humble anyone. "Only I can undress her" = "Only I can break your pride" type vibes. It's especially ...uncomfortable with the metaphor since Zeus is known for being forceful and arrogant himself, particularly in choosing his lovers.
@@emilyb5307 That part I understand, but how exactly was Ody prideful in this moment? Or was Ody thinking he could outrun Zeus which can be seen as his hubris?
@syedshakaibanwar2698 I think probably a lil bit of the latter, but likely also Ody's general concept of "I can weasel my way out of this and do things MY way, not the God's way". He tried it with Zeus and the infant ("I could raise him as my own-") he tried it with the cyclops (tricking him, also blatantly ignoring Athena's advice afterwards), then when the consequence for that was Poseidon he blatantly tried to weasel out of an apology and then also literally escaped him. Not necessarily that trickery or skill are bad, just that perhaps in Zeus's mind it's His way or the Highway and he knows Ody will try to work out a 3rd option.
Potentially also (just my thoughts here) his boasting about getting his crew home for so long "I brought 600 men to war, not one of them died there!" , "I'll be a monster to everyone but us" , etc. And Zeus like "mmm....you sure about that? We all know what you really mean is everyone but YOU and I'll prove it."
also a sad fact is, Odysseus told Eurylochus to light up six torches, because Scylla could only attack the men with torches, and eurylouchus was holding a torch, in the animation in the live stream, he realizes this and tries to help the last man with a torch but he’s too late. So Odysseus was sacrificing 6 men. And possibly trying to get rid of Eurylochus
Edit: Luke Holt is Zeus btw!
@@dlanieymp Honestly, can't say I really blame Odysseus for trying to get rid of him. I would too if he told me he was the reason they didn't make it home lol
@@valkines same JDJDKS
@@valkines But it wouldn’t be wise because he basically command the men and they’ve always trusted him more.
@@DarkestNova556 That's also true
I think another reason he told eurylochus to light torches as a way of trying to absolve himself of the guilt of choosing who would die. He knew the deaths would happen, but by making eurylochus light and hand out the torches, it would be 6 people that eurylochus chose that died, or 5 people and eurylochus himself if he chose to keep one.
Odysseus: Cut their tails off.
Crew member: Yay, seafood dinner!
WAIT UNTIL YOU SEE THE ANIMATION. IT HITS YOU 10X HARDER
@@WarriorTProductionsYT Which animation? Can I please have the link to it?
@@kindracorbridge6118 the animatics were on the livestream, they are going to be released soon on Jorge’s channel. I believe one already has.
@@heavenlypillarThere are also reuploads of the animatics from the livestream on other channels if someone wants to see it earlier😊
@@kindracorbridge6118 for me the new one from neil illistator hits fuckin hard
People think odysseus was in the wrong but i think they don't realize all 37 men left alive in that moment committed treason against the king of Ithaca
@brianmog I mean, yeah, if you look at the laws, but I'd argue that morally: Ody was still not in the right.
We all know the crew had a fair reason for the Mutiny.
Arguably, they were not in the right eighter, but they did have an understandable one--
@@brianmog And Eurylochus has honestly been antagonistic from the start. Always questioning & doubting Ody, wanting to leave behind his men to Circe, opening the wind bag, and he has the temerity to blame Odysseus for HIS suffering.
@@garretthildebrandt428 He’s been concerned for Odysseus cause of his stupid mistakes, he even called Ody his brother/friend before and after the fight. The dude doxxed himself for no reason, which was the real reason most of the fleets died. Poseidon was coming for Ody anyway, it was either at sea or in Ithaca. Dumb mistake sure, but Ody making Eury mark 6 friends for death was borderline malicious. He wanted to leave the men at Puppeteer because he was trying to save the lives they had left, and he was right cause Ody would have died if Hermes didn’t come out of nowhere
My guy would you follow a captain that secretly sacrificed 6 of your friends at random seemingly without remorse? They aren’t dogs lol there’s no reason to keep being loyal in that scenario
They did that after he killed six men. They were worried that they might be next.
I'm not sure if you noticed but E man (love that you call him that), Ody's right-hand-man, confessed to Odysseus that he was the one who opened the bag of wind in "keep your friends close", that's the betrayal that Scylla is talking about. (The betrayal could also mean Odysseus betraying his crew by lighting the torches and "feeding" six of his men to Scylla to pass her, double meaning I guess)
In greek mythology (or my understanding of it), Scylla is a nymph who was turned into a monster (by Circe!) with six heads. She eats with all the heads at the same time so she snaches 6 men every time a ship passes her. If the ship is too slow, she may come in for seconds and snach another 6. That's what Ody meant by "a price to pay", that price being 6-12 lives of his crew.
There is other version, that Scylla was a monstrous daughter of Hecate/Ceto and Phorcys and has always been a sea beast.
I noticed that too
But with No Longer You
Like song of past romance referring to the siren
Sacrifice of man
@@Unchanted_ I was thinking past romance could be the sirens, but it also could be a song that we haven’t gotten to yet, sacrifice of man is probably Scylla, just because that was an active sacrifice of six men but it could also be referring to his decision at the end of thunder bringer, portrayals of betrayal is probably mutiny, but it could also be something else we haven’t reached, but a brother’s final stand is definitely referring to mutiny
E man is Ody's brother-in-law by marriage to Ody's younger sister.
Zeus's/Luke Holt's THUNDER BRINGER is grade-A Zeus. Drawing similarities between Pride and women is so in character for him. As King of The Gods, Zeus knows everything there is to know about Pride. Also his lecherous/lustful nature throughout Greek Mythological History just leaking through the song with Pride being a damsel hiding in a corner where he can undress her is just SSS-class lyricism on Jorgie's part.
@@deadeye4047 yeah, he cant talk about any topic without thinking of women and pleasure seeking... It is such perfection, the pride, how he gets off on his powertrip but at the same time has to tell everyone how grest he is, the cat and mouse game... He takes pleasure from putting odysseus in this position ans still manages to frame himself as fair ans glorious
“No more of us deceased now cause he won’t take no suffering from you.” Followed by him sacrificing 6 men and then sacrificing his entire crew HURTS
@@selahleffew9645 the sacrifices are different in tone, based on the reception:
The sacrifice of the 6 is seen as a necessity since Poseidon still has it out for Odysseus. He doesn’t want to risk running into the sea god again or running into the other island that is near Scylla’s which would, basically, be giving his crew straight to Poseidon to do with as he pleases, and lose everyone. The math is simple there: 6 men vs everyone who is left.
Meanwhile the sacrifice of the crew is seen as something that could have been avoided:
1. If Eury had listened to Odysseus in the first place and not killed the cows of the Sun God. They could have avoided running into Zeus.
2. If Eury had not opened the bag earlier, it is possible they could have used it to breeze past Scylla, bypassing the sacrifice altogether.
3. If Eury had not staged a mutiny over the one time Odysseus made a sacrifice when he, the entire time, had been telling Odysseus to make a sacrifice.
Zeus essentially forces Odysseus to accept two facts:
1. If Eurylochus continues alive or with him, he will continue to be a problem and a detriment.
2. Eurylochus cannot be allowed to become a detriment.
@@niceguyofgames9490 Not to mention that if Eurylochus hadn't gone behind Odysseus' back to open the wind bag they would have arrived in Ithaca with 593 men and never interacting with Poseidon. I constantly see people Blame Odysseus for everything in EPIC but they always seem to forget that the crew was literally within eyesight of their home when Eurylochus decided, "Huh, after Odysseus spoke to the god of the wind the storm suddenly disappeared and now he's saying the winds are in that bag and it would be very dangerous to open. But... What if the king and the man I call my brother is secretly hiding some treasure?" It really gives a whole new meaning to the line "I need you to always be devout and comply with this or we'll all die in this."
@@jlablue3401 Making it home would have doomed all of Ithica then, not just the crew. One can’t just piss off Poseidon while living on a costal, Island kingdom, and not suffer the consequences. Keep in might Poseidon isn’t just the god of the sea/water and horses, he’s also the god of earthquakes for a reason
@@jlablue3401Yeah I mean Odysseus made a lot of mistakes for sure but it’s only cuz of him that any of them are still alive.
@@selahleffew9645 I may be reading too far into this but one thing i haven’t seen people picking up on is originally they’re singing “WE are the men made monsters, WE are the ones who conquer” etc. But after he gives the order to kill the sirens it switches to “HE is”. I’m thinking this is the crew trying to separate themselves from Odysseus because instead of just being as ruthless as needed, he’s becoming sadistic. Necessarily ruthless would be killing the sirens even though they’re begging for their lives, because as long as they live they pose a threat to him and anyone that comes across that part of the sea(as he mentions). But Odysseus chose to put in extra work to make sure their deaths were long and painful. Instead of just shooting/stabbing them he has the crew cut their tails off and throw them in the water to drown. The crew gets uncomfortable, and maybe even afraid of Odysseus at that point and start separating themselves from him. Basically a “Don’t blame us, we’re just following orders”.
also the amount of callbacks/motif in this saga is crazy, everytime I listen to it i get a new one everytime lol
Okay, so I was relistening to Scylla and Mutiny on Spotify, and something that barely even registered but now looking back on it is amazing because the last time they manage their “Full Speed Ahead” motif cohesively was before Odysseus sacrificed six of his men, but after they start trying to row away from the island after killing the cow It's like the men are trying to perform the "Full Speed Ahead" motif, but unlike before when they were all together, now it's completely disorganized and frantic, especially with Odysseus yelling "FASTER" really sounding like he was just screaming at them instead of giving orders in the background. Gives me the vibe of them no longer obeying him from respect, but pure panic, hence while they're all disorganized and everything feels incredibly off rhythm.
I also like the detail that Eurylocus has always been backed up by the crew, but even now in Mutiny when he led the crew to overthrow Odysseus, sure they stabbed him and knocked him out, but the second the stakes were raised, they immediately fell into line desperately trying to follow Odysseus with Eurylocus not even fighting because even after they rose their Mutiny, he was still their “Captain” not Eurylocus!
I was amazed how at the end, when Ody is having to choose, Eurylocus defaulted back to calling him "Captain" despite the mutiny. Just imagining that he might be the last person to call Odysseus that, ever...SHIVERS!
Some fun facts to help people better picture what is happening in some scenes!!
1. Sirens often lived on small islands in Greek mythology, singing from the safety of the land to sailors passing by, urging them to jump off their ships and swim to the land, where they were then eaten. In this, Odysseus would have been chained to his ship like in the original story in order to restrain him from jumping off the ship and following the voices, though it sounds like they all clogged their ears as a sort of safety net, so imagine what you want with that!
2. In Greek mythology, sirens had human heads and the body of a bird, but it sounds like Jorge gave them fishtails like a mermaid, so I guess just imagine the sirens from Pirates of the Caribbean. I dunno, lol.
3. Scylla was (as was researched in the video) a creature with razor sharp teeth and mutiple heads connected to their body by elongated necks (think of a snake lady with multiple heads and a shark mouth). She lived on a strait with her sister Charybdis. Charybdis was an underwater monster with a mouth so large that she created whirlpools that would swallow every boat and every living passenger. The strait was so narrow, that ships always had to choose one side or another, and Scylla was the lesser of two evils. Scylla would claim victims by lunging for them like a viper from her cliffside with her six heads, yanking them from the ship and into the cliffside where she would devour them.
4. (I don't recall if this was ever actually part of the myths, but...) Anyone notice that Odysseus ordered for six torches to be lit? And then 6 men were sacrificed? Six men for six heads. Pretty dang savage man.
Point 4. It was never brought up in the myths. The 6 men die randomly but Ody wanted to fight through Scylla. He didn't mark anyone for death though.
@@yaboyospoons7570 Thank you! I definitely couldn't recall if there was a particular reason in the myth. I like the way Jorge went with that idea regardless!
For point 1, I'm pretty sure Odysseus left his ears unblocked because he wanted to hear their song - but he got his men to chain him down so he wouldn't die.
@@AxelSpinnet He explains in the song that they blocked their ears and read their lips, which is very different than what happened in the book. For all intents and purposes, it can be assumed that Odysseus is unchained but wearing the beeswax because of his lines. In the book, Odysseus wanted to hear their song but not steer his ship into an island like Sirens in Greek Mythology prefer to do, since they're more birdlike than the supposed half woman half fish of EPIC. They actually have no meaningful contact in the book. Ody learns about Scylla and the Sirens from Circe when he returns from the Underworld and is given the beeswax as a gift. This part of the musical probably has the most differences, at least the most I've noticed.
I like to think that during thunder bringer when he hears penelope, its zeus as a form of manipulation/to apply pressure since his crew is also speaking to him.
Also, idk if u caught this but in the lair, Oddy told Eurlochus to "light up 6 torches". He knew that Syclla would go for whoever is holding the torches but he didnt tell his crew. In the animatic clip that was played in the livestream, you could see eurylochus trying to save his fellow crew mates but was always too late 😢
God, i love this saga it might be my new favorite! I cant wait till full animatics come out!
Great reaction!
I can't decide if Penelope's 'take the suffering from you' lines represent Ody considering his own death in conflict with the 'when does a man become a monster' lines which could represent him considering his crew's death. The former is from the sirens essentially trying to trick Ody into killing himself while the latter seems to play when someone around Ody is dead/dying, like the infant or his fleet when attacked by Poseidon. Not sure if that makes sense.
That, or he feels like all his suffering will end when he has Penelope again, including the guilt of the sacrifice?
@@Galdethriel I would take it as the second description, but in the original animatic the vision of Penelope comes from the sky as if it were something kind, so I think that Zeus probably used it to Manipulate
Your faces when listening to Scylla’s song were priceless! Haha
When the crew sings « When does a man become a monster? », they are kind of asking « Are you a monster for real? Are you going to do this irreversible bad thing? »
Mutiny has so many reprisals man, Thunder Bringer has some too, but they did a lot in Mutiny.
Also, someone else pointed out that in The Horse and the Infant, Odysseus says "deep down I'd trade the world to see my son and wife". The main ideal with Scylla was 'deep down', and then of course in Thunder Bringer he sacrifices the rest of his men.
Deep down, he traded the world to see his son and wife again.
I highly suggest watching the clip from the livestream thats on TH-cam already too, it's just the Thunder Saga, but the animatics that Jorge had community people make for it help visualize a lot of what's going on, especially with Mutiny and Thunder Bringer. It's posted by someone named 4W Element Ender.
I only just actually caught the "We are the same, you and I." Scylla is a monster, but didn't start that way. I've never read Odyssey but I saw in the comments that Circe had turned the Nymph Scylla was into the monster they are now. I'll probably look this up afterwards to make sure this is right just to be sure. But if that is the case, Scylla is calling themselves and Ody people who have become monsters or just outright is calling him a monster. I was too caught up in the music when first listening to Thunder Saga fully so that detail had slipped past before.
After doing some research, this is indeed true. Circe poisoned the spring Scylla would bathe in outta jealousy because she loved Glaucus but Glaucus loved Scylla from the looks of it. This turned Scylla into the monster she is now.
@Adahy_bullet Yes, so true! I didn't even think about that ( for I, too, was listening to the music). I read Circie my Madeline Miller, and, turns out, Circie couldn't change her back. Scylla would always be there, killing innocent men, all because of Circie's jealousy.
I believe that Scylla also doesn't want to eat sailors, but she's forced to stave off/prevent starvation. She is a monster forced by necessity to do terrible things against her will, just like Odysseus. They both just want to survive.
17:22 tbh thats basically just what the the fates are. The common idea in the time the odyssey was written was that they wove your entire life as a thread in their tapestry and there was nothing you could do to avoid the future they had set for you. Usually trying to avoid it just made it worse
so fun fact about Scylla; her being the way she is is all Circe's fault
see, Circe was in love with this one guy (whose name I can never remember and honestly I cant be asked to look it up), but he only had eyes for this one nymph. so Circe, powerful sorcereress that she is, concocted a potion and poured it into the spring where she knew the nymph took her baths. the nymph was transformed into a monster, and placed on top of a cliff next to Charybdis, to antagonize sailors for all eternity.
that is Scylla
(which is why the line "die in the blood where you bathe" is such an interesting line to me, considering her own transformation. does she know, somehow?)
when it says "about 12 years" It was supposed to be 10 years. in the song he said 12 in circe saga and it was a funny nod at that lol
Actually, it should be around 12 years by now. The journey of Odysseus going to war and back was around 2 decades. The Trojan war alone lasted 10 years. In the next saga he’ll be sent to Ogygia, where Odysseus will spend 7 years trapped.
@@LunaTsukiko8547 yeah 10 years of war, 2 years at sea trying to reach Ithica, 7 years with *spoiler* and about another year spent lost trying to reach Ithica.
@@LunaTsukiko8547 oh fair
you can hear ody telling eury to give 6 torches to the men and he mentions a price for going past scylla in Suffering which probably implies he knew he needed to sacrifice a man to each of scylla heads to make it through scylla's strait
So, time for a Greek Mythology dump to help provide context to all of this since not everyone has read The Odyssey or studied Greek Mythology.
Suffering/Different Beast: Ody isn't (at least in the book) wearing any of the wax because he wanted to hear the siren song. To survive he had his crew tie him to the mast and he was struggling so immensely that the rope tore into his skin. I believe in Epic he is wearing the wax though since the explanation and him holding onto his sanity via not jumping in makes me believe this is another difference from the book, which I like. Sirens here also very likely aren't the ones usually featured in Greek Mythology. The ones here, I imagine, are essentially evil mermaids we most commonly think of today. In Greek Mythology, Sirens share more in common with Harpies and they do similar things (singing people to their doom). I do prefer this too, simply because it lessens the overlap of the two creatures and generally is more interesting to me personally. He also doesn't learn about Scylla here in the books, he learns about it after returning from the underworld to Circe.
Scylla: So, yes Scylla is super messed up. She was once a beautiful nymph until Circe got jealous and turned Scylla into how we know her today. She has a few mildly different depictions, the most common being my personal favorite. A woman with 6 snake like necks protruding from her lower body with dog heads on the ends with three rows of shark-like teeth in each of them. She is also adorned with 12 legs. The lighting of 6 torches is essentially Odysseus marking 6 of his men for death. Since Scylla only has 6 heads, and said heads can only eat one person, he marked them with torches to make them easy targets. In the book, Ody does intend to fight Scylla but loses 6 men anyways because it's a giant sea-monster-lady.
Mutiny/Thunder God: There isn't much to talk about with these 2 because aside from minor details, most of it is accurate. E-man and the crew are done with Ody, so they stage a mutiny and end up on Helios' island. The cows E-man kills here aren't actually cows, they're golden oxen in the book, but this is so minor I don't think anyone cares. But this is all really accurate, Zeus then comes down and destroys the ship, killing all of the Crew aside from Ody.
Here, Odesseus says that he was reading her lips so it's to be assumed that he actually couldn't hear the siren in Suffering.
Luke Holt is Zeus in epic the musical
And he is sooo amazing at it
Its rare to see such insightful and genuine commentary from a reaction channel. Subscribed.
@@thecomentingcat6280 That's one of many reasons I love watching Dave.
When the siren told Odysseus they'd need to go through the Lair of Scylla, he said "No...but Scylla has a cost" - then in the beginning of Scylla he told Eurolychus to light up six torches and hand them out. It was a deliberate sacrifice of one Man per Head so the rest of them could get through unscathed. If you remember the Prophet's song from Underworld Saga: "I see a song of past romance (Suffering), I see the sacrifice of man (Scylla), I see portrayals of betrayal and a brother's final scand (Mutiny). I see you on the brink of death (Thunderbringer), I see you draw your final breath (in the very end of Thunderbringer when the music changes, he's also sinking into the water along with the rest of the crew he just sacrificed). I see a man who gets to make it home alive, but it's no longer you (He's a 'Differen't Beast' now)" Cool, huh? Also, horribly tragic, but still awesome. And Zeus is Luke Holt. He's insanely good. Check Jorge's channel for snippets of animatics to put everything in better context. He's started releasing them slowly.
Listening to the Thunder Saga during the livestream with all the sagas playing before it was such an impactful experience. Even after listening to the saga beforehand, everything coming together was ridiculously good.
Glad you enjoyed the Saga Dave! Can’t wait to see more of your reactions.
Always love your insight and reactions!! This is honestly my favourite saga so far! As for Scylla, Odysseus sacrificed six men, for the six heads. 1 man for each head. It was either that, or all 43 dead. In the animatic during the livestream, it was shown that Eurylochus was also holding a torch, as Odysseus intended to sacrifice him after Eurylochus revealed he was the one to open the wind bag.
Also, Odysseus’s men stabbed him, but also bandaged him up. And during Thunder Bringer, Odysseus doesn’t verbally voice his choice, but he does point at them in an animatic.
And the animations Jorge commissioned are amazing! They really enhanced the experience. Can’t wait for you to see them once he releases them! Gigi’s animatic for Mutiny during the livestream was insane!
I have been following this whole saga since the Troy saga and fell in love with it. This whole saga is absolutely beautiful and devastating and I love it so much. It’s awesome to see anyone get into the Epic musical!!
@@thegaaraqueen3489 this was definitely the most gut wrenching saga so far for me and I didn’t think anything would top the Underworld Saga but this one made me cry and got me emotional
Shoutout to Luke Holt for the amazing vocals as Zeus!!
Fun Fact about the song “Scylla”, if you listen closely when she starts singing aggressively, you can hear the 6 men screaming in terror and agony one by one as they are taken by the 6 heads. I figured it out and now can’t stop hearing it. I even counted to make sure and I was right, 6 screams, one at a time
The line structure in mutiny is the Zues part of The Horse And The Infant. From "where are we" to "hunger is so heavy" is "what was that" to "i dont think your ready"
Love your reactions! Hoping to see more of them!
22:33 don't worry man, he did this to ALL OF US 😭
And by the way, Zeus' singer's name is Luke Holt!
@lukegsgacha2073 Luke Holt? More like Lightning Bolt, am I right?
@@samuelshirley369oh! Hahahaha that's a good one 😂
I was waiting for your reaction! You're so calm and relaxed but deliver such great, insightful commentary, it's always a fun time on here
Could not have said this better myself. I feel like Dave is someone I could very easily vibe with :)
Loved your Epic reactions from finding your Polyphemus reaction, thunder saga is insane
You have the best reactions to Epic. Going into the content and not the technical aspects of the music like the others. It makes the reactions so much more relatable when listening to such thought provoking material.
The fact that he harmonized with Cylla in do what it takes to survive, that is a lovely bit of metaphor for how much he has changed
My husband told me an Odyssey joke when I told him about this saga:
Odysseus: hey guys wanna go with me on an Odyssey?
Crew: what’s an Odyssey?
Odysseus: oh it’s an adventure named after the sole survivor of the journey…
Crew: WHAT DO YOU MEAN SOLE SURVIVOR?!?!!!!
Dave's face during the beginning of Thunder Bringer is a mood
Luke "The thunderbolt" Holt is Zeus's singer. He also was Elpenor (R.I.P., gone and forgotten) in "Luck Runs Out". Perimedes said "Open the bag!" Elpenor was the one to say "Let's see what you got!"
In Homer's _The Odyssey,_ Elpenor was the youngest man on Odysseus's crew, and he got shitfaced drunk on wine at Circe's palace and fell off the roof and died from a broken neck. They were just about to be on their way to the Underworld when he died, so they had to leave him there, but Odysseus eventually returned to give him a proper burial. He actually had a verse in "The Underworld", but Jorge scrapped it because it was too funny for the song. Elpenor's whole thing in _The Odyssey_ is that he's basically forgotten, so it's quite fitting that he was basically forgotten in Epic, only remembered as one of the "558 men who died under your command."
Zeus is voiced by Luke Holt! :)
More like Luke BOLT am I right? 😅😂
@@whatitdodave He should definitely change his name to that haha!!
Thunder Bringer is my new favourite song from Epic, I can't deny it. Not only is the sound incredible, but the lyrics, the word choices, the dual meanings, the allegories. Just "sublime you for your act of crime" alone is so good it pains my little linguist heart:
sublime (verb):
1. chemistry - change from a solid state directly to vapour
2. archaic - elevate to a higher decree of moral or spiritual purity
Zeus is here to cleanse you of your sins by REDUCING YOU TO VAPOUR
I WAS ABOUTTA GO TO BED!!!!
YOU JAMMONG OUT WAS A TOTAL VIBE I CAN SLEEP PEACEFULLY NOW LOL!!!
E man really brought a lot upon himself, he avoided the cost for his own deeds from the start all the way until thunder bringer. He ultimately was the one who caused the death of the fleet by opening the wind bag, then lead his men into the witch's home, and angered the sun god by his own actions. Odysseus angered Poseidon, but that confrontation was avoidable if not for E's actions.
Eurylochus open bag is his mistake but he not inten to hurt any one but Odysseus decide to sacrificing 6 men to Scylla with his own intention of course the crew choose to joine Eurylochus
Man said king pin of mount olympus 😂 thats such a great name
It's a callback (maybe unintentional) to a (much) older reaction in the ERB Zeus vs Thor Zeus calls himself the "Kingpin of mount Olympus" 🙂
It’s not an inaccurate description considering how much of a monster can be and how he runs a family of jerks and psychos.
I have mixed feelings about Odysseus sacrificing members of his crew. This was after he’d had this entire epiphany about how he has to be ruthless to foes and how his actions of mercy have cost more lives than they’ve saved. And it was his crew that disobeyed him and opened the bag of winds leading them right to Poseidon and Circe. And yes, he knew what he was doing in the lair of Scylla when he had his men light up six torches, but what would they rather have him do? Poseidon had just killed his entire fleet. He needed to avoid him at all cost. And back on Circe’s island Eurylochus was willing to sacrifice the men Circe had in order to escape. And his crew committing mutiny and killing the sun gods cow, sealed the deal. They had become Odysseus’s foes. So he had to be ruthless to them.
I want to help you pronounce some names if you’ll let me:
Eurylochus- "Eur" from Europe "yl" as in ill "o" just the letter o, "chus" as in "cuss"
Polyphemus- "Poly" from polygon "phem" as in the beginning of the word femur (the bone) and "us" refering to "me and you"
Scylla: "Scyl" as in a windowsill and "la" a note to follow so
I hope this helps and you don’t take this like I'm trying to make fun of you or something, I just noticed you having trouble with names and wanted to help ❤
Thank you!
Fun fact: sirens often get confused with mermaids! But in Greek myths, they’re actually bird creatures with the heads of beautiful women with even more beautiful pipes.
People seem to forget that they'd be already be home if Eurylochus hadn't opened the bag. Him opening the bag lead them straight to Poseidon, costing them 500 men, which lead them to also down the path where Odysseus had to sacrifice 6 men so the rest would survive. And then they betrayed him, and Odysseus sacrificed them too. Eurylochus has been disloyal the entire time. He kept questioning Odysseus in front of the men and never privately voiced his concern, that alone was treason by arguing with his king. Then he immediately disobeys him and opens the bag. Then at Circe's he attempted to confess to his crime, but Odysseus probably already knew but was in denial, so he ignored it, and then Eurylochus was more than willing to leave behind at least 6 people on the island. Then he has the nerve to be mad at Ody for sacrificing 6 vs all 42 remaining men. Eurylochus has arguably gotten more of them killed. And they expected him to sacrifice himself when they betrayed him, and constantly disobeyed his command.
I love the line "He is the man-made monster" because of "Monster" at the end of the last act. Idk it is just something about that line, the fact that this whole time he was trying to grip onto his humanity while fighting a war, while trying to get home, and while trying to stay alive. He was so desperate to keep his sense of humanity intact that he ended up sacrificing lives unintentionally when he didn't finish off his enemies. Seeing him finally lose it and make a conscious decision to not only kill, but slowly kill and punish the sirens with his men singing this in the background is honestly chilling. This is especially chilling when you take into consideration the line, "What does a man become a monster?" We thought we saw it before when he killed the baby, and innocent soul who was destined to destroy everything he loved but really, he didn't truly become a "Monster" until he let go of everything that made him human.
The reason Odysseus lit six torches is so the six heads would attack them. That’s why Eurylochus was so mad.
This was such an amazing saga! I loved every second of this. I even loved the new versions of Troy and Cyclops Saga he put out! Infinitely better over the originals! ❤
Scylla recognizing Odysseus as a monster like her and happily accepting his sacrifice to pass safely was a nice way to see his change from mercy to ruthlessness.
Love your headcanons! And so in keeping with the way these stories used to be performed thousands of years ago. And the story changed over time. Keep reacting and I'll keep watching. Your shock when you got to the last song was so awesome.
Just a recommendation, For future reference, when the next saga comes out. Watch his live stream for the song. He usually adds short animatics and lyrics, so it's definitely the recommended course of action before full animatics have time to come out 😊
I get why he killed the sirens but my heart couldn't take hearing it happen i have struggled relistenin to this whole saga😭
Despite knowing the mythology and Odyssey already, I still LOVED your speculations, they'd make for amazing myths!!
Your realization when you re-read mutiny is priceless 😭😂😂😂 !
Also, tyrisias foretold all of it. Paat romance-Ody and Pen (in the books its also Circe and Ody and someone else i wont name and ody)
Portrayals of betrayals-ody sacrificed his men, the men tried to mutiny him, ody delivering the ultimate betrayal by choosing to kill his crew., (book ody betraying pen)
A brothers final stand- E man starting the mutiny and standing his gound in killing the cows against odys advice
This saga hit me fr
🙏😭real tho
😢frfr
Spoiler warning ‼️:
“I have to see her….”
“But we’ll die”
“I know”
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
@@MusicalsOnMyMind Those lines killed me 😭
Thats such an amazing build between the relationships of Odysseus and Eurylochus. Eurylochus starting the story willing to run from Circe and learning from Odysseus to stick up for his men. And then betrayal (The sacrifice of man from the Prophecy) shattering the trust Eurylochus built for him. The way the guilt builds before Scylla, confessing that he betrayed his friend, not knowing Odysseus had already made the choice to sacrifice his men, its so heartbreaking ;-;. Eurylochus taking up his sword against Odysseus (A brother's final stand), and the crew stabbing Odysseus, no longer able to hide their doubt. The final moment with Eurylochus killing the cow, hunger clouding his mind and willing to overlook the crime, and then immediate regret when he realizes what hes done. I think its a beautifully crafted moment and plotline throughout the entire epic.
Should definitely rewatch this with the animatics in the live stream because the animatic make it sound & feel so much better
All the sagas are really good at describing what’s going on but I feel like the Thunder Saga will be so much better with the animatics along with it compared to past sagas
You dont fight Scylla... you SURVIVE Scylla...
Ody making Eurylochus light 6 torches, unknowingly marking 6 friends for death is insane- especially after confessing his guilt over the wind bag (the deaths were also still Ody’s fault for doxxing himself for no reason tho). Definitely a good reason for mutiny, and even after all that they spared him and he still considered him a friend. He just totally gave up by the end and didn’t wanna starve which is sad
Bro, you've got me talking to my screen like you could hear me lol! Your reactions give a very good interactive vibe, and I love it. You've got a new sub 🤘
Yo! I just realized something I haven’t seen in comments yet!
Ody is stabbed in the back by one of his men, remember all the way back to the Horse and the Infant, Ody has a vision of being stabbed in the back and what is said next?? Zeus comes in and says “A vision, OF WHAT IS TO COME. Cannot be outrun.” And before that when he was stabbed and he asks “who was that?” Because he never saw who it was, meaning he didn’t know he would be betrayed! Even all the way back to the very first song we were told about this happening!!!
I agree the voice actors are amazing especially the one playing Zeus. His voice just fits so well. The sad thing is, Odysseus has been with these men for 10 years and calls them his brothers. They were also his family. Especially the ones on the same ship. I get at this point Odysseus feels betrayed by them…but they feel betrayed by Odysseus, multiple times.
No matter what Poseidon may have figured out who Odysseus was. But Poseidon may have not if Odysseus didn’t literally give his name away. Odysseus is desperate to see his wife and child, but his crew had families too. E-man, is his brother in law, married to Odysseus’s sister. And unlike with the cyclops, it doesn’t feel like Odysseus planned much for Scylla. Feels more like he just wanted to punish E-man. And the sirens were just cruel. He literally made them have a very slow and painful death. In reality, they could have just sailed through the sirens once they had the information needed. Or maybe, they would have helped him more if he spared them. 🤷♀️ being kind work with Circe. Or he could have at least tried the kind way and then get ruthless if that didn’t work on the sirens. At the very least he could have just made the siren’s death quick and painless.
There is just this bitterness to him now. He isn’t shutting off his emotions, his just avoiding them and turning them into anger. I totally get that Athena’s “shut off your heart” requirement was insane. Odysseus is a human with human emotions. Maybe Athena should have taught him how to work through the emotions in a he’s way so that they don’t distract him from a battle. I realize the gods in Greek mythology aren’t great about humans, or their feelings in general.
I personally call the "hunger is so heavy" melody the "I don't think you're ready" theme" because it appears before someone makes a choice that will heavily influence the plot. First it's in Zeus's part of "The Horse and the Infant" and after that Odysseus kills the infant and is haunted til the rest of the story so far, then it's in "Survive" after which he makes a choice to let the cyclops live and also reeval himself, and now it's here, and there's two whole choices, first the choice to kill the cow, then Ody makes a choice to sacrifice his crew. This melody is basically a huge tell that the plot is about to be influenced hugely by some choice of (usually) Odysseus'
Your reactions are awesome and I love them! I’ve been watching you for a while (did not notice I was not subscribe so I did that today!!) Honestly, I felt practically the exact same way with this saga, especially with the cliffhanger in Thunder Bringer!
I can’t wait for when the rest of EPIC comes out- also, it’d be cool if you reacted to more musicals! Some I’d highly recommend is Nerdy Prudes Must Die by StarKid, which are all free on TH-cam. (Sorry if this is too long or confusing, I’m not a native speaker of english)
The SECOND I heard Penelope's voice during the livestream I think I typed in the chat "OH GODS NO, IT'S A SIREN!" 😆
Was waiting for this!!! Thanks for the reaction!
Thunder Bringer, is Epic, Digusting and Ominous at the same time hahaha.
I'm no expert in Myhtology but for what I know, Zeus talking about "Pride" as a a methaphorical "She", "Undressing her" and in general the Lyrics meaning are so fitting.
"Different Beast" and "Thunder Bringer" are my favourites from the album.
Love how Hamilton like Thunder Bringer was, the callbacks fit so well together
I just realized that, in the ending lines of mutiny, Eurylochus is saying "Ody" and it hurted.
He's only ever called him captain, being professional for the other men, but now he's so truly tired of fighting. He just wants to get through to his best friend, past all the trauma and jaded-ness from their time away from home, one last attempt to get his friend back.
Don't mind me, I'll just be in my little corner sobbing over these fictional characters from millenia ago
Man you have become my favorite reaction channel here can’t wait to get your take on the next saga :)
As bad as the choices seem, It was everyone ELSE'S fault Zeus showed up. I dont blame Ody for a second for making that choice there
Your reaction towards the end of Mutiny into the beginning of Thunder Bringer was similar to mine, but your expressions got me chuckling to myself cause honestly? It's a mood.
MY MAN I DIDNT KNOW U WERE THIS GOOD, I recall watching u in some hip hop specific songs but also EPIC? damn u won me
Fun little thing about Scylla: of all the creatures and monsters in Greek mythology, she’s one of the few that GENUINELY scares the hell out of the Gods!!! The only person who had the tiniest chance against her was Hercules.
And Hercules by Greek standards was almost like a Mutant for a Demigod not considered Normal.
So yeah, She is genuinely horrifying in Greek mythology.
The expression: “Between a Rock and a Hard Place.” Comes from the narrow crossing between Scylla and Charybdis.
It was so much fun watching this! I didn't know that you were reacting to Epic. I loved the Home Free videos, so I'm glad this came up in my feed too. You seemed as excited about this saga as I was! I can't wait for the next one
Helios is the sun god, and he's the cousin of Zeus; their fathers are brothers. He's one of the Titans that took Zeus' side during the Titanomachy (the war between the gods of Olympus and the Titans), so they were pretty close. I don't think Jorge included it in his Circe saga, but she WARNED him not to touch Helios' cattle if they ever came across his island or he would stop them from returning home. She warned him that if they touched the cattle, all of Odysseus' men would die, his ships would be destroyed, and even if he survives he would be the only one to do so. So (in Homer's telling of the Odyssey) when Odysseus' men eat the cattle, Helios basically tells Zeus to dispose of Odysseus' men or he'll leave the regular world (like, above ground) and go to Underworld and shine there. Hades/The Underworld is the only place where Helios' light cannot reach; dying meant no longer seeing the sunlight as they believed that being alive was to live under it. So Helios' descent to the Underworld would destabilize the balance between the dead and the living. So Zeus basically said "I'll deal with it" and killed everyone but Odysseus.
I forgot, but Teiresias also warned him not to touch the cattle. I like both Jorge's version and the original version Homer tells; I like Jorge's version a bit better because Eurylochus isn't really a villain in it, not much of one at least lol. In the original, Ody doesn't really wake up after a mutiny. He tells them beforehand of the warnings Circe and Teiresias gave him, and they all agree not to eat the cattle. To their credit, they're there for like a month without eating them, but the storms are too bad to go home. Then at some point he goes off to pray, falls asleep, and Eurylochus convinces the men to kill the cattle. Basically he says 'heyyy let's eat his prized cattle and we'll just build him a temple in Ithaca if we ever get home - and if that doesn't appease him it's better to die by their hand than to starve to death'. Which...I mean, that's true, but still definitely insulting to the Titan. So Helios was like 'no I don't want your damn temple, I want my cattle' who DIDN'T EVEN DIE since they were immortal. They went on eating the cattle for six more days and then when they were ready to leave Zeus destroyed the ship and killed everyone but Ody.
Seeing your facial reaction to the second half of scylla was my exact reach when i heard it for the first time its gruesome
So excited to see youve already posted your thunderbringer reactions ❤️ thanks for feeding us with new content so quickly 💞
Something I always think about when I listen to Thunder Bringer is when we hear the “I can take the suffering from you” melody again. I always took that as Odysseus thinking about the sirens. I’m not sure if it’s supposed to be the real Penelope (I’ve seen an animatic where that line is portrayed as Zeus showing him Penelope saying that line as a final nail in the coffin to his affirmation that his answer is to spare his own life so he can see her again, which I also love and totally fits). Personally though, the way I took that the first time I heard it and the way I still look at it is as he was thinking about the sirens as a “maybe I should have let the sirens kill me”. Then, he wouldn’t have to be in that position to make the choice to kill the rest of his friends. And that just always makes me sad because we know he doesn’t want to make that choice, so for a split second the fact that he wishes he was dead instead of making it home to Penelope and his son says a lot. It really speaks to how much he really does care for E-man (love that nickname for him btw lol) and the rest of the crew despite what happened and what his decision ends up being
While Odysseus did screw up when he doxxed himself, the wind bag being opened directly led to every horrible thing that happened.
From Poseiden, to Circe, to Scylla(which was necessary. Sacrifice 6 or the whole crew).
All they had to do was get home, becaise in the origonal story, Poseiden only pushed the crew to danger when they were on boats(I believe).
13:34 I don't know if some one pointed this out already, but in the second song, "Scylla" if you count, you can hear the six screams of the six men at different times in the song, it's super chilling
So, to help out with anyone not understanding the parts that were adapted into the Thunder Saga -
Suffering and Different Beast - This is the part in the original Odyssey when Odysseus and crew pass through the waters inhabited by Sirens. In the OG, Odysseus has his men plug their ears with beeswax and then tie him to a mast super tight so that he could hear the Siren's Song. Frankly, it's a pretty meh portion of the story that Jorge improved, in my opinion.
Scylla - This is adapting the part of Scylla and Charybdis. In the OG myth, Odysseus and crew sailed near the cliffside to avoid the whirlpool created by the sea monster Charybdis, which led to the six head monster Scylla killing six of Odysseus's men. Obviously, Charybdis is omitted in the play, and instead the six men are treated like a sacrifice.
Mutiny and Thunder Bringer - This is adapting the, obviously, mutiny, slaughtering of Helios's cattle, and Zeus punishing the crew. In the OG, the mutiny occurred because Odysseus didn't want his starving men to kill the cattle - since they had been warned by the prophet against doing so - but Eurylochus decided he was far too hungry to care. This action led to him and the rest of his crew being killed. Changes in Epic, obviously, are the mutiny being over Scylla, them not knowing about the cattle, and Zeus forcing Odysseus to choose between himself and his men.
just found your channel and I gotta say, i love the vibes!! also love your note about the sound design - jorge keeps improving and improving on the sound design for epic, and it really helps sell what's happening without visual references (though also - have you seen the animatics he's got commissioned for this???? they are INSANELY good, especially the scylla one!!) keep it up dude :D
By the way with the release of the Thunder saga, he made some changes to the Troy and Cyclops saga. They aren't big changes but are powerful, so I recommend listening to them in your free time.
i didnt expect scylla to be my favorite song this album/saga, but the way she goes from soft to hella aggressive back to soft is so good
All of this could have been avoided if Eury and the men did not betray Ody by opening the bag of winds. Odyseus told them not to let the treausre rumour fly, but they didn't listen!
All the men are guilty. Eury consciousness was getting to him and he man'd up and confessed. Too bad it was last minute and at the most inopportune time,
yet in the end all the soldiers betrayel costed them their lives in the end.
But, yeah, I can't blame them because they gave in too hunger and that damned while Odysseus was holding on to love to guide his way.
But, it's true, the duality between heroes amd monsters are two sides of the same coin.
Thunder Bringer, Mutiny and Scylla....my gosh those songs are amazing. The emotions, the vocals the music....perfection!
I hope we get another Saga. Ody's story is not done yet.
Im late but is nobody else's shocked at the fact the Eurylochus opened the wind bag? I mean i suspected but hearing it make me cryy😪
This saga is so incredible, and I loved your commentary and reactions ❤️
Learning the original version of the Odyssey was likely performed by multiple bards over centuries in poetic song form that Homer likely just compiled kind of makes Epic even more Epic. Like this is going back to the roots in so many ways. It honestly makes sense how a blind bard could compose The Iliad and the Odyssey despite their length. You can't memorize a book easily. You can memorize lord knows how many songs pretty easily. And then scribes just really liked his version. Epic truly is gonna be Epic when its completed.
At this point I understand why Odysseus would sacrifice his crew because they:
>Killed the herd of a cyclops (Honest mistake)
>Opened the bag of storms despite the warning
>Refused to listen to his brother who tried to keep them safe
>Killed the cattle of the Sun God despite the warning
At this point I would be like "#### these dead weight I want to see my wife again and I am not bringing y'all with me."
The amount of different motifs they use in Mutiny is beautiful. There are motifs of luck runs out & just a man. The luck runs out is specifically when eurylochus sings first about trusting him " how can we trust you now " and then again when he sings about suffering from hunger. Before he kills a cow he says " im just a man ". Jeorge incorperates different songs from the previous sagas beautifully.