0:38 Deathrite Shaman is actually legal in Historic, it's just not any good there. 😅 47:17 Deathrite Shaman's land-eating ability indeed is not a mana ability, because it targets. The Gatherer rulings even call this out specifically. That's probably part of why the more recent Armored Scrapgorger ended up with the weird wording it has.
@@CanadianOreoable Yup. I've had a bunch of Explorer opponents try to play it against me in midrange decks (generally the same people playing Seige Rhino...), but it just doesn't do anything without fetch lands.
I don't think 120 cards with Power 9 is a good idea. That just leans the format even more towards do-everything FIRE designs and the 1 mana card selection cantrips. 120 cards hampers any sort of synergy, aggro or combo deck. We have a hard enough time running a synergy deck with one set blocks in Standard. My prediction is that that format would almost immediately become midrange money piles and all the recent design mistakes slamming into each other. I'm way more interested in putting fetches and Brainstorm into a format where the payoffs aren't Vintage power level, because we haven't seen that before. It might still turn out to be midrange value glop but at least there's a potential for something more interesting.
I watched that first match on the bus. Sure I fell asleep at like 42nd Street and didn't wake up until the match was ending and i was back on Staten Island, but I did get through the whole thing!
Slow playing a control deck should be against the rules. Thank goodness for timers, but what a colossal waste of time. If I play a control deck, I'll jam stuff with a flow chart as much as possible, even if it causes me to make mistakes. I really just can't stand consistent slow play.
Depends how the format will shape up but at the moment it feels like its all about ragavan, bowmasters and darcy so stern scolding seems to me that it might be the best counter in format.
i’m super into timeless. great to see a fully degenerate format on arena. would love to see a redux of your rakdos tendrils deck that you played for no ban historic. i had a lot of fun with that one. can’t jam 4 demonic tutors but i think the combo is slick enough that it doesn’t need the tutor effect to work
I wouldn't mind an increased deck size limit, I think it would also be interesting to play around with the 4-of-card rule as well. 120 cards with up to 5 each of non restricted cards could allow more powerful cards to be in and restricted. Restricted might also be something other than 1, possibly different per card (up to 2 demonic tutors but only 1 recall). I do think there's an inherent issue with the power 9 that they skew the match to just drawing them as fast as possible; it's overly-degenerate in a degen format.
Reminds me of when I was a new player. I only really started playing ranked around when historic first became a thing. So I was like sliver/gold playing bo3 in historic. I would repeatedly win games to slow play. No idea what any of those people were thinking
I want to play a pile like this but I was wondering about pretty much only 1 card. Should we be running some amount of get lost in place of swords? Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel like a few get lost would help a ton against the okos, leylines, minsc, etc. I know it doesn't feel great to answer them after resolution, but the modality is very attractive
It's not crazy, I saw BoshNRoll playing Get Lost in Legacy the other day. But I wouldn't be thrilled to give Timeless opponents Map tokens in the current meta where everyone is playing Bowmasters and a bunch of other creatures.
17:00 I think it would be cool if you could only run a certain number of restricted cards. In the yugioh mobile game for example, you can run only 1 card that is restricted to 1, only up to 2 cards that are restricted to 2, and only up to 3 cards that are restricted to 3. So they can add the power nine and other cards like that, but then there’s a real choice of “would I rather have time walk or demonic tutor?” …it would probably be black lotus centralized though. Still a cool idea I think
In response to your question about the format, make one like Australian Highlander. 60 cards, singleton format, powerful cards are pointed, so you can't have lotus, recall, and all mox. You get game variance and interesting choices, while still retaining good deck building and identity options.
Mulligan 120 card Timeless. Maybe another format for 100 card singleton, but 120 cards with basically unbound power sounds like it would be miserably swingy. If "the game comes down to who draws power" is a bad thing, making the format 120 cards will only worsen that feelbad because now _everything_ is super high-variance. If Timeless is supposed to be a paper magic analogue, you should be able to build towards consistency like in Legacy or Modern.
53:15 I feel this type of mechanic can be overlooked if you have not played it in paper. The physical act of shuffling your cards cues you into interactions that go unnoticed when MTGA shuffles instantly.
I love how that person asked whether there are any Alchemy cards powerful enough to see play here. My two best decks so far in the format are a Bant control list similar to this one (Uro + Oko + Teferi + Beanstalk/Binding and Brainstorm/Counterspell/fetch lands is just gross), and a Dimir control based on Rusko, Clockmaker. That card is absolutely degenerate, even in Timeless. Here's the Rusko list: 1 Castle Locthwain 1 Castle Vantress 4 Consider 4 Counterspell 4 Dark Ritual 2 Drown in the Loch 3 Drowned Catacomb 4 Fatal Push 1 Field of the Dead 1 Island 4 Orcish Bowmasters 1 Otawara, Soaring City 4 Polluted Delta 4 Rusko, Clockmaker 3 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse 2 Sheoldred's Edict 2 Shipwreck Marsh 2 Snow-Covered Island 2 Snow-Covered Swamp 1 Swamp 1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire 2 The One Ring 3 Thoughtseize 4 Watery Grave
umm, this is the point of Timeless, no?.I fucking love this format.. good "midrange" Matchups, that's all i've been playing.. Bloodmoon is fun VS this deck.
Lmao dont worry about the editing jim. The commentary just makes it breeze through. You're right about nexus players. If youre playing nexus you cant play slow or else banned! Edit: ill say stick with timeless. New format seems like a lot of potential for different stuff. Theres nexus, tainted pact, blood moon, underworld breach, sneak attack, natural order, winota, etc. Just so much potential. I love it.
Players in real life shuffle faster than opponents on arena can hit space bar after a fetch. Science. I couldn't watch the first match even with the basic editing you did.
As someone who plays a bit of Gladiator on arena, increasing the deck size for Timeless would definitely be welcome to me. I think powerful formats get really stale with the consistency of 4-ofs in a 60-card deck. The only downside I see is making the deck size too big means that Yorion starts to become almost free. 60->80 is significant but doable, 100-120 is barely noticeable, and everyone getting a free companion detracts from the upside of reducing consistency, especially since every other companion that might be competing for the slot gets harder to make work as the deck size increases.
I don't want power 9 on Arena, even with larger decks. It would just cause games to be WAY swingier, which isn't an aspect of Magic that I like. I like well balanced grindy games, not ones where someone got lucky with a massive advantage from the very start of the game. It would be fun to have an event where you can use them, or something like that, but I don't think they should be part of a format.
i like the concept of this list, but RUG splash black for bowmasters, virulent plague, unmoored ego, etc has been paying dividends. also why no counterspells in the main?
I have been playing the hell out of Stern Scolding. The best efficient way of preventing that bowmaster is to stop it from hitting the field. On the draw, most other counterspells cost too much to cast and are useless. Stern scolding also does not get worse as the game goes on and opponents hold up mana for taxes. The biggest problem is Arenas drawing algo, I put four in a deck and never pulled it for about 10 games and then pulled all four in my first hand on the next. Statistically, near impossible.
Mulligan on the 120 cards. First of all, Yorion. Second of all, increasing the deck size would increase the issue because of Fetchlands: you already can splash anything and there are Just enough Staples that you actually need to make some choices, if you increase the deck cap, the format devolves into Yorion 5c piles vs Lurrus 5c piles, Staples only. I think they should add MORE of the powerful Legacy cards to increase variety beyond every deck being Staples.Pile
21:30 You can see about using tools that help automate cutting dead air. It might not be perfect for how your videos since they come from streams where you might be filling that space with commentary, but Caleb Gannon for example has mentioned created a tool that cuts out dead air that seems to work well, Im not sure if hes shared that tool but it could be something to look into.
The problem with increasing the deck size by anything like a significant margin is that it would affect the viability of a lot of cards and strategies. Especially aggressive decks that rely on efficient threats. Every new card you'd include in a larger deck is going to be worse than the ones you were already playing, leading to a much lower average efficiency of your threats. In contrast, decks which already plan on playing lots of card draw suffer much less. Yes, you're playing less efficient card draw options, but those cards are going to help you get to your "good" cards in a way that drawing an inefficient one drop doesn't. Of course, Timeless might not have many aggressive decks to begin with, but it might have some with 60 cards while I doubt it could have many with 80+. Even legacy has a decent burn deck.
There's tutors too to skew it even more. Plus, 120 cards probably means the spread in quality of cards is probably much increased, making draws much more random.
the title of your video is the reason they have historic and made timeless so there is a format where everything is legal and a format where its close but banned and changed to make it more of an even playing field
Would love more timeless content!!! It’s just so different from everything on arena in terms of power level. Would love to see more when your back from Dreamhack! (GL btw!)
Jim i know your very busy right now. Cant freaking wait for C4C! But I would love more timless content. Especially before a solid meta forms. Good luck at the event!
Man now I want to play Ocarina of Time again. Also yea, more Timeless content please. It's nice to see this wild stuff. And actually that first game was hilarious (even if boring)
I definitely want more Timeless stuff. It seems so... I don't know if fun is the word, but it's definitely a lot of _something._
a lot of something
0:38 Deathrite Shaman is actually legal in Historic, it's just not any good there. 😅
47:17 Deathrite Shaman's land-eating ability indeed is not a mana ability, because it targets. The Gatherer rulings even call this out specifically. That's probably part of why the more recent Armored Scrapgorger ended up with the weird wording it has.
Shows the impact of Fetchlands.
It's legal in Pioneer too, right?
@@CanadianOreoable Yup. I've had a bunch of Explorer opponents try to play it against me in midrange decks (generally the same people playing Seige Rhino...), but it just doesn't do anything without fetch lands.
That match 1 was so painfully long. Thank goodness for fast forward on TH-cam.
It was a banger though
I have no opinions about Timeless, yet. I think I'll start by watching a Jim video, and seeing how I feel.
More timeless would be great. Excited to see the format develop
We should do some blood moon gaming in timeless.
I don't think 120 cards with Power 9 is a good idea. That just leans the format even more towards do-everything FIRE designs and the 1 mana card selection cantrips. 120 cards hampers any sort of synergy, aggro or combo deck. We have a hard enough time running a synergy deck with one set blocks in Standard. My prediction is that that format would almost immediately become midrange money piles and all the recent design mistakes slamming into each other.
I'm way more interested in putting fetches and Brainstorm into a format where the payoffs aren't Vintage power level, because we haven't seen that before. It might still turn out to be midrange value glop but at least there's a potential for something more interesting.
Oh Hey, Jim posted! Ooh and its a Timless vid! I don't really have time to watch the whole thing, but should have time for match one!
... *oh* .
Gotcha!
Gotta love the title, as if not every deck in Timeless is a Moneypile
Especially given the stupid rarity upshifts like Lightning Bolt and Counterspell
@@rekenner ...Brainstorm.
Force of will and maybe daze are needed in this format
Leaving a comment every time opponent disappears into the ether
I watched that first match on the bus. Sure I fell asleep at like 42nd Street and didn't wake up until the match was ending and i was back on Staten Island, but I did get through the whole thing!
Slow playing a control deck should be against the rules. Thank goodness for timers, but what a colossal waste of time. If I play a control deck, I'll jam stuff with a flow chart as much as possible, even if it causes me to make mistakes. I really just can't stand consistent slow play.
Depends how the format will shape up but at the moment it feels like its all about ragavan, bowmasters and darcy so stern scolding seems to me that it might be the best counter in format.
Agreed, but going first matters far more than anything in Timeless it would seem
@@OwnedByTheState like in any other high Power format
@@jii-ro7083 but in those formats you have potential turn 0 answers unlike Timeless.
i’m super into timeless. great to see a fully degenerate format on arena. would love to see a redux of your rakdos tendrils deck that you played for no ban historic. i had a lot of fun with that one. can’t jam 4 demonic tutors but i think the combo is slick enough that it doesn’t need the tutor effect to work
I wouldn't mind an increased deck size limit, I think it would also be interesting to play around with the 4-of-card rule as well. 120 cards with up to 5 each of non restricted cards could allow more powerful cards to be in and restricted. Restricted might also be something other than 1, possibly different per card (up to 2 demonic tutors but only 1 recall).
I do think there's an inherent issue with the power 9 that they skew the match to just drawing them as fast as possible; it's overly-degenerate in a degen format.
I watched 1st match on 2x. omg
Throw in Force of Will and Im totally on board for the format!
Yep give me force of will so I can play beanstalk control
I liked to pay for the editor
Nexus player really not putting the Nexus-players-are-asshats accusations to bed
Reminds me of when I was a new player. I only really started playing ranked around when historic first became a thing. So I was like sliver/gold playing bo3 in historic. I would repeatedly win games to slow play. No idea what any of those people were thinking
Literally my favorite win con; I run an oversized deck and though it gets smashed by most aggro other decks end up timing out 😂😂😂
love the content, not a big fan of the sound effects though.
I want to play a pile like this but I was wondering about pretty much only 1 card. Should we be running some amount of get lost in place of swords? Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel like a few get lost would help a ton against the okos, leylines, minsc, etc. I know it doesn't feel great to answer them after resolution, but the modality is very attractive
Oh I guess maybe it's not necessary with our own leylines bi dings.... Idk. It still seems great
It's not crazy, I saw BoshNRoll playing Get Lost in Legacy the other day. But I wouldn't be thrilled to give Timeless opponents Map tokens in the current meta where everyone is playing Bowmasters and a bunch of other creatures.
17:00
I think it would be cool if you could only run a certain number of restricted cards. In the yugioh mobile game for example, you can run only 1 card that is restricted to 1, only up to 2 cards that are restricted to 2, and only up to 3 cards that are restricted to 3. So they can add the power nine and other cards like that, but then there’s a real choice of “would I rather have time walk or demonic tutor?”
…it would probably be black lotus centralized though. Still a cool idea I think
That actually seems great. Blue would be indisputably overpowered though, either way, with the power9 being 6 artifacts and 3 blue cards.
In response to your question about the format, make one like Australian Highlander.
60 cards, singleton format, powerful cards are pointed, so you can't have lotus, recall, and all mox.
You get game variance and interesting choices, while still retaining good deck building and identity options.
First one was one of the games of all time lol
More timeless content please. You're one of the best deckbuilders I know of and using your stuff for reference has always always helped!
Like button smashed for Jim's dream of having an editor.
i was here for some of this stream watching m1g1 and my god it took FOREVER
nearly left the stream had it not ended sooner
Mulligan 120 card Timeless. Maybe another format for 100 card singleton, but 120 cards with basically unbound power sounds like it would be miserably swingy. If "the game comes down to who draws power" is a bad thing, making the format 120 cards will only worsen that feelbad because now _everything_ is super high-variance. If Timeless is supposed to be a paper magic analogue, you should be able to build towards consistency like in Legacy or Modern.
The timeless play queue is fun, I’m running angels with mana tithe and winning way more than I should
53:15 I feel this type of mechanic can be overlooked if you have not played it in paper. The physical act of shuffling your cards cues you into interactions that go unnoticed when MTGA shuffles instantly.
Def want to see more timeless games as in the format and not opponents who are learning to read and play magic at the same time
radkos sneak is 41-18 so far in bo1 turn 3 atraxa and brandy is pretty gross
I love how that person asked whether there are any Alchemy cards powerful enough to see play here. My two best decks so far in the format are a Bant control list similar to this one (Uro + Oko + Teferi + Beanstalk/Binding and Brainstorm/Counterspell/fetch lands is just gross), and a Dimir control based on Rusko, Clockmaker. That card is absolutely degenerate, even in Timeless.
Here's the Rusko list:
1 Castle Locthwain
1 Castle Vantress
4 Consider
4 Counterspell
4 Dark Ritual
2 Drown in the Loch
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fatal Push
1 Field of the Dead
1 Island
4 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Otawara, Soaring City
4 Polluted Delta
4 Rusko, Clockmaker
3 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
2 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Shipwreck Marsh
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Swamp
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
2 The One Ring
3 Thoughtseize
4 Watery Grave
umm, this is the point of Timeless, no?.I fucking love this format.. good "midrange" Matchups, that's all i've been playing.. Bloodmoon is fun VS this deck.
Let me guess, the 3rd card that got restricted is spreading seas.
Tibalt's Trickery
Lmao dont worry about the editing jim. The commentary just makes it breeze through.
You're right about nexus players. If youre playing nexus you cant play slow or else banned!
Edit: ill say stick with timeless. New format seems like a lot of potential for different stuff. Theres nexus, tainted pact, blood moon, underworld breach, sneak attack, natural order, winota, etc. Just so much potential. I love it.
Players in real life shuffle faster than opponents on arena can hit space bar after a fetch. Science. I couldn't watch the first match even with the basic editing you did.
As someone who plays a bit of Gladiator on arena, increasing the deck size for Timeless would definitely be welcome to me. I think powerful formats get really stale with the consistency of 4-ofs in a 60-card deck. The only downside I see is making the deck size too big means that Yorion starts to become almost free. 60->80 is significant but doable, 100-120 is barely noticeable, and everyone getting a free companion detracts from the upside of reducing consistency, especially since every other companion that might be competing for the slot gets harder to make work as the deck size increases.
Seems like this deck wants Esper Triome too, given how badly it wants to cast Binding
I don't want power 9 on Arena, even with larger decks. It would just cause games to be WAY swingier, which isn't an aspect of Magic that I like. I like well balanced grindy games, not ones where someone got lucky with a massive advantage from the very start of the game.
It would be fun to have an event where you can use them, or something like that, but I don't think they should be part of a format.
i like the concept of this list, but RUG splash black for bowmasters, virulent plague, unmoored ego, etc has been paying dividends. also why no counterspells in the main?
Instead of timeless, they should have just made a gladiator queue. 100 card Singleton with no companions and no sideboards, just make no bans
Also what a crazy format. Just throwing crazy spells at each other in m2g1 and all of a sudden you're at 36 life.
I have been playing the hell out of Stern Scolding. The best efficient way of preventing that bowmaster is to stop it from hitting the field. On the draw, most other counterspells cost too much to cast and are useless. Stern scolding also does not get worse as the game goes on and opponents hold up mana for taxes. The biggest problem is Arenas drawing algo, I put four in a deck and never pulled it for about 10 games and then pulled all four in my first hand on the next. Statistically, near impossible.
Mulligan on the 120 cards.
First of all, Yorion. Second of all, increasing the deck size would increase the issue because of Fetchlands: you already can splash anything and there are Just enough Staples that you actually need to make some choices, if you increase the deck cap, the format devolves into Yorion 5c piles vs Lurrus 5c piles, Staples only.
I think they should add MORE of the powerful Legacy cards to increase variety beyond every deck being Staples.Pile
With yorion, your deck would need to be 140 cards.
Love the timeless content! Also pro 120 card decks, the more dumb and janky the better xD
25 of your nonland cards are the designers shitting the bed and 12 of your lands are fetches. Disgusting.
I want more.
21:30 You can see about using tools that help automate cutting dead air. It might not be perfect for how your videos since they come from streams where you might be filling that space with commentary, but Caleb Gannon for example has mentioned created a tool that cuts out dead air that seems to work well, Im not sure if hes shared that tool but it could be something to look into.
The problem with increasing the deck size by anything like a significant margin is that it would affect the viability of a lot of cards and strategies. Especially aggressive decks that rely on efficient threats. Every new card you'd include in a larger deck is going to be worse than the ones you were already playing, leading to a much lower average efficiency of your threats. In contrast, decks which already plan on playing lots of card draw suffer much less. Yes, you're playing less efficient card draw options, but those cards are going to help you get to your "good" cards in a way that drawing an inefficient one drop doesn't. Of course, Timeless might not have many aggressive decks to begin with, but it might have some with 60 cards while I doubt it could have many with 80+. Even legacy has a decent burn deck.
There's tutors too to skew it even more. Plus, 120 cards probably means the spread in quality of cards is probably much increased, making draws much more random.
Why don't we restrict cards anymore? Seems like a good place to start instead of outright banning a card.
All these busted cards and you win with double removal . Swing with dorks 😂
In the first match should we be playing fragment reality because it removes reclamation?
Playing guitar and not watching while getting Nexus of Fated was killer 🤣 thx Jim lol.
Everything I've seen about Timeless so far is that this is format Orcist Bowmasters forever.
This is the first time I've ever had to put one of jim's vids on 2x playback speed.
"This is the kind of game I would edit of out my youtube videos "was crazy jim
Singleton would be better than 4 copies of the power 9 in your 120 card deck lol
80-100 cards with P9 on the Restricted List woukd be fun I think
nice gerudo theme, pretty cool youre entertaining us while youre basically on f6
Big mulligan on the 120 cards. Rather stay w/o Power 9
I didn’t mind the long match, I appreciate how you talk with the chat and the fun commentary makes it not feel like forever
the title of your video is the reason they have historic and made timeless so there is a format where everything is legal and a format where its close but banned and changed to make it more of an even playing field
Mulligan. If they are just going to restrict cards make it singleton
"This is the part that I would edit out of my TH-cam videos" ... ... ...
No power nine in Timelless, but if they do, deck size should be bigger
Nah, no 120 card nonsense, no power either. That needs its own corner to exist outside the bounds of reason.
This format is broken… But the cool thing is that there are lot of broken stuff to do and therefore there is diversity in the madness
Odd that they needed to make a whole new format to play 2019/2020 standard.
Would love more timeless content!!! It’s just so different from everything on arena in terms of power level. Would love to see more when your back from Dreamhack! (GL btw!)
I was the game 1 lol, sorry about the slow start my VPN was bugging out.
I'd rather play Alchemy than waste wildcards on a timeless deck
I can't tell if opponents crashed or just forgot to actually fetch.
Glad I have a ton of banned cards. Finally can make use of them again.
isn’t t3 minsc n boo off hafling the nuts against worlderness rec?
best answer to a bowmaster is another bowmaster - we've gone full mental misstep
Match one seems so indicative of what the format and games in the format will feel like.
Honestly, I think timeless just needs wasteland to keep its manabases in check
I ate a steak with creamed spinach pasta and a ginger lime sparkling water during the first match was great time
39:12 Sounded like you were ready to play Poem by Taproot for a second.
End the festivities would be good against bowmaster
No cards should be banned, Restricted is as far as it should go.
Good stuff, Jim! Something of a slug, but good games.
Yes to more timeless!
Teferi, Oko, and Uro, the trio of three drop tyrants
Deathrite is such a good card. It does all the things.
I didn’t know this was a thing and I’m here for it!!
I've been loving this format, would love to see more content for it. Mogg Monday for timeless???
Ooooo that’s seems hard though, cause I don’t think you get anything special
@@dougisacat you can play rakdos goblins for dark ritual, demonic tutor and bolt.
You need an editor let me know.😁
Keep on 120 card formats
Would love more timeless content
How would mono red be in this format
Jim i know your very busy right now. Cant freaking wait for C4C! But I would love more timless content. Especially before a solid meta forms. Good luck at the event!
I feel that the first opponent being a braindead netdecker is going to be indicative of this new format.
A bit like Jim himself forgetting how T3f and Oko's ult work.
I think some sort of Canadian Highlander would be cool. 100 card decks, power 9, a bunch of restricted powerful cards, but still 4 of normal cards
Keep on the power 9 question
That game one was a marathon 😂
Man now I want to play Ocarina of Time again.
Also yea, more Timeless content please. It's nice to see this wild stuff. And actually that first game was hilarious (even if boring)
I’m on keep for the 120 card decks with power 9, assuming they come into the format restricted.