Experiment Time | How rye affects sourdough bread | Foodgeek Baking
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- In this experiment time episode I will see what increasing amounts of rye does to your sourdough bread. I also have a special guest for the sniff and taste test.
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#sourdoughbread #ryeflour #experimenttime
Hi Sune, in case you want to try something new - here is a german (bavarian) version of rye-bread:
My Wholegrain-Rye-Sourdough is a wet one (1 part flour to 2 parts water at start, then feed with 1:1 ratio) and i use
150g Sourdough (i don't bother with "starter", i just use it as is)
350g Rye-Wholegrain flour
250g Spelt wholegrain flour
10g Caraway seed (if you don't like the taste just don't use it; alternatives are fennel-seeds or anisseed)
2,5g fenugreek (also: just if you want)
15g Salt
400g Water (rye likes it warmer than wheat - aim for 28-35°C warm water)
just mix for about 4-5 Minutes, form a ball like you did with the 80% one, put it into your basket and let it rest for 12-24h. It's ready if you can see some cracks and if the dough springs slowly (but not fully) back if you put a little dent in it. (no stretch+fold, no dance in the moonlight, no virgin-unicorn-blood)
Don't cut it, it will tear in a rustical way on it's own.
Bake it as you always do (if unsure: internal temperature should be around 98°C)
Low Oven-Spring, very dense texture - but full of flavor and great with butter and ham and all hearty toppings
For high rye ones you should use another technology.
For 80% rye bread take 100% rye starter(100 g starter for 100g flour). Hidration of starter - 80%.
Hidration of dough -65%.
Salt-2%
Fermentation takes 30 minutes(28°C), no stretch and folds, proofing (never go in the fridge!) takes 60 minutes at 28-30°C. Do not score it, you can make some perforation with a toothpick. Bake it in preheated oven 240°C with lid on for 15 minutes, then take of the lid, change the temperature to 220°C and bake another 35-40 min. You should wait 24 hours before cutting.
This way you'll get the best results!
I love your scientific approach to baking! I've learned a ton from you over the last year, I started a sourdough bakery during the pandemic because of all the knowledge youtubers like you and Proof Bread have given me, thank you Sune. 🤘
So this is my life now apparently. I have a day off work and I’m spending it watching some strangers in Denmark smell bread. But I love it! Interesting and well made!
Mmmh... Brød!
I wonder if increasing the hydration with the increasing rye percentage would be beneficial (but I don't know by how much). Or maybe do some 80% rye loaves with 80%, 85%, 90% hydration. I liked the double double taste test (raw+toasted, Sune+girlfriend)
We eat a lot of rye bread here in Russia. Dunno if anybody else in the world eats as much, and, unlike white bread, it's always sourdough if you want to bake it at home. However, it's not just a typical sourdough bread with more and more rye added. For 50% and above rye bread, you'd actually need to do it differently to get better taste.
Mix all the water, starter, and rye flour, and leave it at room temperature overnight (10-12 hours is typical, and 2-3 more hours are fine as well). This will result in kind of rather sour rye poolish. Then add the rest of ingredients in the recipe (wheat flour and salt), mix, leave for 1-2 hours at room temperature, shape, give it final rise and bake. Final rise is to be complete, handy criteria being the beginning of appearance of small holes on the surface; these breads don't give significant oven spring. Adding a bit of molasses and/or rye malt to the recipe makes bread taste better as well.
Rye dough is often handled using water rather than flour to avoid sticking, especially at high hydration levels. It's also common technique to smooth the surface with wet hands before baking.
As for higher hydration ideas in the comments, you guys won't be able to bake stand-alone loaf with high hydration high rye dough, it just won't keep shape due to low gluten content, -- you will need to use a loaf pan for such experiments.
Next experiment suggestion- does loaf size affect oven spring 🙏🏼
And does the time of that larger loaf change the effect?
Oh yes...good question
I think the more rye you use, higher should be hydratation. Probably around 100% for 60 and 80% rye. It would be interesting to experiment different hydration levels with high rye content. Thanks, great video.
Agreed. I’m not a rye baker- the reason I am viewing this vid. I bake a Whole Wheat sandwich at 25% WW, and 50% WW. Hydration is increased 63-65 % due to exactly what you propose,.
Usually about 70-80%, but there are a few very wet doughs, like GOST Borodinsky, which is literally spooned into the loaf pan, steam baked 10 min, covered and baked 45-50 min, removed from the pan to be finished about 10 min.
To add, Frisian Black Bread (Fries Swartbrood, Ginsberg's "The Rye Baker" P 134), a 50 pct rye (whole or medium), is an 87.5 pct hydration bread that uses bread flour and is panned like a quickbread. It's an oddball that starts with a 2 stage sponge build with a 200 pct hydration rye first stage.
Kære Suna, jeg har nydt at se dine eksperimenter, mens jeg er startet på at lege med surdej selv.
Jeg kan dog ikke finde din video for dansk rugbrød, selv om du har reklameret med den 😊 er den uploaded?
God fornøjelse med dine ting !
Danish RYE BREAD recipe - 100% sourdough rye bread recipe - Smørrebrød
th-cam.com/video/8EanzisEiMc/w-d-xo.html
That 80% sure looks really good. The kind of bread you can live on for days. I think that the "pain de campagne" that you see in FR has a small % of rye usually. I notice in your basic sourdough recipe you don't go crazy with the final shaping, just fold and roll it. You don't seem to try to roll extra tight, just roll and pop in the banneton. The tip on 25% growth and not try to double is a good one. That finger poke thing is bogus in my opinion. A good way to over proof. Thanks for your videos!
My 40% rye version felt much more sticky than in the experiment...hence really hard to manage.
Light or dark rye?
@@Foodgeek what difference does it make?
@@rooooooby Dark rye is much more absorbant, so it works quite differently at high hydration :)
Hi Sune, I would realy like to see the same experiment with whole oat flour.
I'm using it in my sourdough since few weeks because of very high level of protein.
Rye doesnt have the same gluten content as hard white bread flour. Less gluten less rise and a tighter cell( crumb) structure. Heavy rye bread can be like a door stop but oh so good!
It's a different type of glutin, as well.
Hello, just a little tip. Once you hit the 42% mark of rye, don't try to work it like you would an usual wheat loaf. There's not enough gluten already so there's no "stretch and fold" kind of technique that could help it. It's just not your typical sourdough, even though it ferments very nicely. Still, experimenting with different flours and hydration can yield different results as always. Great video to show how rye affects the final product.
t. Someone who loves rye
I have a Danish whisk. I have 3 actually. And I feel ridiculous, because none of the Danish bakers I watch on TH-cam ever use one.
The term "danish" is probably misleading. But plenty of European bakers use them.
My standard loaf is 20% rye, 40% whole spelt and 40% bread flour made with a rye starter. I spend extra time on gluten development and end up with a nice ear and reasonably open crumb. I love it and it get lots of positive reviews from wife and friends.
I don't have spelt flour, can I go with 20% rye and 80% bread flour? Will the bread texture be different ?
@@anh8318 You should be able to get a great loaf with that combination. I think you will be very happy with the crumb and the taste.
An excellent question that deserves an answer! I've been trying to add increasing amounts of rye, and finding the limit gets hit pretty quickly.
Ok...I followed your basic sour dough recipe...don’t want to brag, but I got an incredible ear...the taste was insane....the oven spring crazy. I thank you for all your efforts and talent. When I took off the Dutch oven lid I was dancing in kitchen...dog thinks I am nuts...all good after babying this sourdough like a Princess for two weeks.
many thanks - I love these experiments Sune! Your gf has a terrific laugh and it was easy to imagine her whole face lights up when she smiles.
Great video, thank you. Loved thr new tasting setup. More Maria.
what about increasing hydration & yeast percentages with rye?
I’ve always wanted to ask . Did you compose the background music?
Please keep releasing on Friday!! It's great, 'cause that's when I'm planning my prep for the weekend, so it gives good info in case your experiments reveal better techniques!
I tried your experiment with 130% hydration dough by turning the oven off at 450F, I started with a cold Dutch oven, 5 qt. and the dough rose to the top. I then baked it to a internal temperature of 200F. Wish I could send you a photo. Tremendous oven spring.
Fun... my starter names ‘Marie’ 😊
Very interesting! I love Rye sourdough. It will be interesting seeing your experiment using light rye flour. Thank you for the experiment!😊
What happens if you treat the rye as inclusion and fold it into already autolyzed dough?? Then you'd already have a gluten network to begin with...
I don't think it would change anything, but it maybe interesting to see. Otherwise maybe a rye tangzhong could be a different way 😊
Great presentation about the affect of percentage of Rye Flour. Your presentations are Great. When do we get to hear you play the guitar? M. Anderson
Thank you :D
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Unbelievable! 80%!? Rye bread has been an issue to me. Particularly in a hot humid climate. It's revealingly how the optimal conditions can be achieved. Congrats!
Love your shirt! I’m inspired to try more scoring
Maybe I missed the videos, but perhaps a combination of flours? I know bakers tend to do this. How would Rye, Wheat, and White together taste?
I am baking in my bread machine no starter just dry east and all three 40% 40% 20% and I am very pleased , it’s soft inside and crunchy outside, I like it the most from all the previous single flour recipes
Few days ago I’ve mix my first sourdough starters using all 3 flours
@@slavek033 Nice. I started to mix as well and enjoy the flavours.
Adding some vital gluten back to the higher percentage rye blends would help with the gluten development.
I liked the look of the 20% Rye, so that's the one I'll be trying next. Thanks Sune for sharing.
Love your sourdough. Easy to make fantastic flavour. Mange tak
Velbekomme ❤️
Have you ever tried adding some vital wheat gluten to compensate for the whole grain? I've done this and it seems to compensate somewhat for the lack of gluten in the coarse rye flour.
I love adding rye to my sourdough , the added sourness and flavour is unbeatable
Rye flour demands a lot more hydration for good gluten development.
How fun! I mixed up a test this morning! 80% hydration, 20% inoculation, 50% rye.
Don't do it, please. You need a different approach when it comes to rye flour. You should make a preferment with at least 25% of flour used (definetely rye in this case). Wheat based sourdough with up to 20% rye can be done with small amount of prefermented flour, but when using more rye, you should upper the preferermented flour %. If not, you'll get bad results.
Thanks for this experiment. I’ve been trying to make same bread as grandma did. I got sourdough mother from same bakery but they didn’t know percentage. I think she used 50/50. And that makes sense to me. Btw. Grandma’s village is at Tvrdošovce Slovakia. Try repeat that 😜
this is interesting. the higher percentages of rye didn't behave at all like i expected they would have. i thought the higher %'s would have proofed faster because rye metabolizes faster, but yours all proofed at the same time. i also expected the higher %'s to spread out more, but yours kept their shape very well. i wonder if the coarseness of the flour has something to do with it. curious to see how the lighter rye flour will behave in your next experiment.
Hi Sune; do you have thoughts on whether a (maybe long) autolyse process with the higher rye-content doughs would have had a noticeable impact on elasticity?
Possibly a long autolyse combined with a slightly higher hydration would make a big difference, since he said the Rye is thirsty.
I wondered about a longer autolyze would have made a difference on the higher rye percentage, too.
Awesome experiment! Where do you get those bannetons?!
Here: fdgk.net/buy-oval-proofing-baskets :)
Yeah. The more rye you use the less you need to do to the dough.
I believe the math you used for Rye flour percent is wrong. You did not include the starter four in the total flour number. If you include the starter flour you get 18%, 36.4%, 54.5% and 72.7% respectively. I love the experiment though.
I would be curious to see result of you increased hydration with rye percentage. Good experiment. Thanks
Very good!!! I love watching these natural fermentation bread videos, but I need subtitles in Portuguese. 😉♥️
Fascinating video. Thanks. For diabetic lovers of crusty white bread what ancient grains and proportions would you recommend for health but retaining that white crusty bread effect?
I’ve just begun experimenting with dark rye flour. I made a 100% rye loaf. Now I want to try a 40 or 60% but I can’t decide if I want to use bread flour or wholewheat or some combination for the remaining percentage. I’m also using a scald of red rye malt.
Hi
What’s your suggestion by adding bicarbonate soda during the final shaping? Should I still refrigerate overnight ?
Ha I last week did a 100 percent rye bread but not with flour only coarse grained flour and it came even more compact tjan your 80 percent and I needed to bake double the time.
It's tasty but very moist and not very fluffy.
I instantly thought it's the rye amunt....
So basically your experiment confirmed that.
@Foodgeek - Awesome video and experiment, thank you. Can you please share what the oven temp was when baking? Thanks!
😂😂😂the 80%has the biggest holes(if you use a microscope)😂😂😂😂
Will a 3.5 quart Dutch oven do? Or do I have to buy a 5 quart Dutch oven for baking. Thank you.
For the start you don‘t really need to buy anything but flour :)
If loaves seem to big for your dutch oven, you can scale the recipes down using sunes bread calculator.
You can even bake without a dutch oven entirely. Just add an oven dish with water to the first half of baking.
@@13Luk6iul Thank you so much. 🌺
Great! Thanks for your work and your special guest: good idea.
Sune, nice you got your girlfriend to taste with you.
LOL! I laugh when I see you trying to cope with the rye! I have given up on rye as it is a nightmare to deal with! But it tastes good though...
Why not add gluten via some Vital Wheat Gluten? There's a good calculator to help you :-)
Now I know why mine doesn’t rise much. I’m looking for oven baking temp?
Toasting German rye bread is a mortal sin and a crime against humanity...
22% dark rye is the highest I've gone but I think I will try a 30-35% next week and see how it comes out. I've never used light rye so would be interesting to see the difference.
German rye bread is the best bread in the history of mankind...
I'd like to be able to make a very high % rye with seeds but without using a loaf pan. Can it be done? I love 20-30% rye much more than wholewheat bread.
You can. Find out the right hydration for your dark rye flour to make a free-standing loaf. For my flour 80% seemed appropriate :)
Oh geez. First Time I used rye (second ever Loaf)..... It was sooo sticky. I hated every second of making it 😂 and oh.... The final result was horrendous
Was it 100% rye? 😊
@@Foodgeek oh god no! It was less than 20% if i remember correctly. Now, I'm just.... Afraid of rye 😂
@@mighty_scrap I can understand. What were the flour(s)? :)
@@Foodgeek it was 500g of all purpose + 100g of rye. 15% innoculation, 75% hydratation & 2% salt. It was before I knew your YT channel. Also, I have to say, as an academics, I really appreciate your bread experiences. Please excuse my english. 🇫🇷🇨🇦🤓
Well, I hope it's going better now. Sourdough has a learning curve, which I am trying hard to flatten 😁
Would like to see an experiment comparing your 20% rye to an 80% but with Vital Wheat Gluten added.
Yes! That was exactly what I was thinking.
i just baked a 50% loaf dark rye with gluten added (tried to bump it up to 10%, but who really knows lol). i have to play around with it, because the gluten developed REALLY fast, like after the 2nd stretch and fold it was at windowpane, so i maybe added too much gluten. flavor is awesome! oven spring wasnt the best (possibly due to too much gluten?)...no ear but still a nice rise. crumb is pretty tight as expected. but its great texture and a nice bread.
@@PbFoot great followup, what quantity of gluten did you add? For my 100% wheat I used 2 TBSP, for others where I was closer to 40% rye I just used 1 TBSP.
@@efusco here are my measurements for that first loaf:
225g rye flour
250g special patent king arthur flour
25g gluten
100g starter (75% hydration, 1:3 rye to wheat)
13g salt
355g water
Why don't you mix and proof in the same container? Fewer dishes to wash! :)
I’ve wondered the same, I use the same bowl. I think it’s easier to assess how much rise there is in the smaller square container though, so I think that’s the reason.
Excellent, highly informative video! Thanks!
Thank you ❤️
What's the protein level of your rye? The stuff I get is 9 1/2%
9.4%
WARNING - NOT FOR NOOBS
Working with dough this wet and sticky is above my pay grade, and I'm not inclined to make the effort to learn. I ended up using it as a sponge and stirred in other 80 grams of flour before I could safely touch it. I'm sure those with adequate skill can make a great loaf, but for now I'm satisfied making a rye flavored brick.
I don't stretch and fold rye dough over 50%. No need, just mix, bulk, shape and bake. It is a denser crumb bread but I love it, especially with some molasses and caraway.
Thank you Sune! Your videos are so helpful!
Thank you
Thank you for this video. You answered my question about using a higher percentage of rye and how it would turn out.
Yesterday I baked a rye bread at 50%.
It looked somewhere between the 40-60%.
I has a nice grain and texture and after the bake, the sliced piece of bread was a little springy to the touch. It’s my fave.
Similar to this vein, you could experiment with white Spelt flour. It is said spelt gluten is weaker than white flour gluten. You could do rye/white/spelt mixes such as 20/80/0 (Control), 20/60/20, 20/40/40 and 20/20/60.
Alternatively, you could also do wholegrain spelt instead with rye/white/wholegrainspelt mixes such as 20/80/0 (control) 0/80/20, 0/60/40, 0/40/60
I've been baking bread randomly since probably 1970. Most of the time it was "Joy of Cooking" recipes, occasionally a recipe from somewhere else and then by 1990 or so just by feel. I've read about how baking bread is science and requires scales and thermometers, but then I see 5085 different recipes everytime I look for one. So, now I'm into sourdough and rye and spelt and grateful for your careful analysis and attention to detail, and STILL have a bowl of dough proofing right now that I will never exactly duplicate, but I bet I'm going to love it! Cheers.
Thanks
You're welcome
I like caraway seeds in my rye.
Hey Sune, loved this experiment. Could you do the same experiment with spelt flour, and could you add some comments after cutting the bread (on the crumb and crust with explanation)? And, could you also do a video, after cutting the bread open, point to the signs of over proofing or under proofing etc? And why those signs appear? Thank you!
MY grandmother used to make a rye/barley bread that was fantastic. She showed me how to make it about 25 years ago and I still make it the same. Sadly she didn't have a recipe specifically so she showed me by how it looks and feels so I've never been able to actually write it down but it's roughly 80/20 rye /barley. A wet dough that needs to sit for quite a while too. Bake it on a lower heat for a longer time and then leave the loaves for at least 24hrs. She would literally hit you with a wooden spoon if she caught you touching the bread before then. The ripening time dramatically improves the flavour.
I bake two 800g loaves every week and I do one with 30% Rye flour (70-75% hydration) and the other one with 30% Spelt flour (60-65% hydration). I already tried to go 40% on the flour but it makes the crumb too compact for my taste and I get a lot less oven spring than what you got.
I noticed that the 60% loaf wasn't completely backed through. There was a sliver of raw looking dough just on the inside of the base.
Great experiment. I have gone from baking 100% Rye to about 20% these days.
Great channel, really enjoying the try your recipes. Question. I wanted to buy your linked melamine bowl, but have not seen any info about the lid you're using. Is the lid the part of the bowl set or do I have to buy separately?
Query fr next experiment : effects of different cold Fermentation temperatures for a overnight bulk. How cold is too cold which almost stops the growth..??
I am relatively new to sourdough bread making but do it way different from you that's for sure. My light rye recipe is called "A Wry Smile" because I made a smiley face in the top and stuck a few little butter pats in the eyes nose and mouth. I have subscribed to your channel your music in the background is tolerable and your experiment interesting.
I use a mixture of 2/4 of weat, 1/4 of full grain weat (freshly ground), 1/4 full grain rye (freshly ground) and overnight cold fermantation. I love this mixture and the bread.
Sune.. you read my mind about Rye... I made your seeded sourdough and I didn't have Spelt so I used Rye. The dough seemed to remain sticky and raggy and I wondered what the difference was. I Googled of course but was hoping you could have an experiment with your Master Recipe or better yet, the Seeded Sourdough with different flours to see the different results. I was thinking pretty basic, whole wheat, rye and spelt, vs. just bread flour. Loved hearing your girlfriend in here too since you talk about her being a regular critic. Love your sharings!
I noticed that you did not perform the Window Pane Test after the third stretch-and-fold. Any reason? It would have been interesting to see, especially for the 40 and 60% doughs.
I've dialed in a high hydration, 70% whole grain seeded rye bread that get a good rise. I use 0.5% salt because I want to reduce my sodium intake and I've been using apple cider vinegar to slow the rise. I do like whole wheat bread, but it has been some time since I've made it because I like the rye bread more.
Sune, it looks like the 40 and 60% had a little bit of a gummy layer just above the bottom crust that the 20 and 80% did not have. Is that an optical illusion?
Hi ! Love your experiments as well as your other videos ! I live in Denmark and have a tough time choosing the flours or understanding all the varieties. Could you tell me the name of the mill you're buying from ? (sorry, my Danish is absolute 0 ) I only baked with white flour and trying to understand the other types out there but until now I wasn't successful. Also your girlfriend has a very charming laugh and it's so nice to see what bread and talk can do :) .
Your videos are fantastic. Great information, experiments, and examples -all with great music.
If you refrigerate your sour dough over night should you bring it back to room temperature before you bake it? I'm doing something wrong but I can't figure it out... It tastes great but I'm sure it should be "springing" more.
I always bake right out of the oven.
Did you watch my video on oven spring?
th-cam.com/video/7rsnmv5FvKE/w-d-xo.html
@@Foodgeek I did watch that video - do you mean bake right out of the refrigerator?
Yes, that's what I meant. D'oh.
I’m a 30% Rye guy with lots of seeds, not to dense and just right for us. Thanks for the experiment.
A partir del 40% creo que falta hidratación, esa es mi opinión. Pero fantástico estudio👋👋😍
"I think that a toasted bread is always better."
You said a mouthful there buddy.
I agree!
Thank you Sunne, very helpful. I recently switched from whole wheat to whole grain rye (known as pumpernickel in the US), settling on 25% after initially trying 30%. I made the switch after I saw that you were using rye in your base recipe. Makes for a very nice taste and sourness. I will tag some pictures to your Instagram.
Toasted bread is much more digestible. I like to think that over time, you body learns that.
Strang colorcorrection on that, dough looks almost orange during mixing
I think its the lighting?
Love your videos and experiments, your sourdough bread for beginners is my go-to recipe for successful sourdough bread. I would love to see some videos from you on sourdough with veggies mixed in, like sweet potatoes, pumpkin... :)
Have you ever tried adding vital wheat gluten to your high-rye-percentage bread doughs?
i found about the same when trying this at home. barely any rise, but still tasting good. though i found it harder to judge doneness of the high rye % bread. even pulled one bread out too early and ended up having a kind of blotchy middle. still good toasted tho.
I love rye bread. Thanks for doing this experiment. 🍀💖
By increasing the amount of rye you have also to adjust the hydration!