You're getting plenty of oven spring on most of your loaves. The phenomenon you're calling "oven spring" is usually referred to as an ear. For most sourdoughs the only case in which the heat can be too high is if you don't have adequate steam (and the excess heat sets the crust before the loaf has time to fully spring). Adding an ice cube to the inside of your dutch oven or just using sufficiently high hydration dough such that it releases enough steam naturally. If you want to consistently get ears you need to develop enough gas and strength in the dough during bulk fermentation. You also need to make sure that you generate enough tension in the final shape such that the dough still spreads in the way you want, even as it runs out of gas while baking. Finally when scoring it's important not to completely relieve all the tension in the dough by cutting too deeply. This is hard to describe but basically the phenomenon of the dough pushing against the score as it opens plays a huge role in the development of an ear. You can score an underproofed dough more deeply and an overproofed dough should be scored much less. Your loaves are fairly small as well so I'm not sure how much steam they're generating inside the challenger pan. Great looking bread regardless!
Wow! I have been watching videos for a couple of weeks now here and on Bake With Jack as I’m learning how to make sourdough. I’m keeping a journal of recipes and techniques, as well as helpful info I’ve gleaned. I dedicated a whole page just to your comment. Thanks so much! I’m going to try again tomorrow with this in mind. You put all the info I’ve seen over the last two weeks quite succinctly and it makes perfect sense now. 🎉
I went through a similar troubleshooting process. For years, my bread had fantastic oven spring, and I was able to develop a great ear. Then suddenly, with a different starter, and a change to the flour that I was using, I was getting awful oven spring, and no ear. I tried increasing hydration, decreasing hydration, increasing and decreasing salt, changing my bulk fermentation and final proofing times. All to no avail. Then I started playing with temperature. Previously I had baked covered at 500f for 30 minutes, then uncovered at 450. The magic bullet was preheating the dutch oven to 500 for an hour (and checking it with an IR thermometer), adding the dough to the dutch oven and immediately turning the oven down to 425. Bake covered for 30 minutes. Uncover, and bake at 425f for another 30 minutes. Turn off the heat, crack the door, and leave for another 30 minutes while the temperature coasts down. Suddenly I was getting amazing oven spring, a great ear, AND it solved my longstanding problem of overly moist and chewy crumb! Another benefit is that the bottom of the loaf is now thinner, and doesn't need a saw to cut through. That has been my standard technique for a year now, and it has never failed. I was simply cooking too hot.
Ill have to give it a try. Makes sense. If you bake the crust too quickly the inside will cook slower. Basic baking. Lower temps cook the inside even with the outside and vice versa.
I went to a sour dough bread making class and the instructor put her dough in the bread over night and straight away into the hot oven and had good results
I bake at 425F for the first 35min. Then I open the cast iron pot, reduce temperature to 400F and keep baking for another 20 min. I love my bread and am very happy with it. I have a very good spring but I don't really care about having a great ear. I don't spritz the dough before baking. I will in my next test. Thank you very much for all your tutorials and advice. I love to watch them.
I’ve been fighting this since moving a couple months ago. The temperature, elevation, and a new gas oven vs. old electric, where all present in this move. Before the move I got good oven spring and a good ear. Since the move, Been one failure after another! This video unlocked the secret for me! My new oven is running about 30 degrees hot! I used a thermometer in the oven, adjusted the temperature to 450 inside , and boom! Oven Spring and the ear is back! ❤. Thank you so much!
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! Trying the lower temp + introducing water into the dutch oven for more spring has been a revelation - it's like an entirely new bread. Never thought I could get this much oven spring or such a gorgeous ear as a beginner bakey. Seriously this video has been a breakthrough for me.
So excited! Yesterday I followed everything you shared in this video, as well as dough strengthening, fermentation and proofing times. I wrote notes like crazy about times, temperature, etc. and this morning I finally had success all the way through the process!! Huge oven spring! Great crumb, taste, and moisture inside. And the whole trick that made the difference is your discovery that if you preheat and bake at 230c instead of a hotter oven, the crust doesn’t bake hard so quickly and the oven spring can keep expanding. Thank you so much 💗 for all you teach us , excellent videos and truly caring about your followers and wonderful sourdough bread.
Although you are a remarkable "bread teacher," you teach a lot more than bread. I love your persistence and placing a high value on failure. A true learner and a an excellent teacher.
I discovered this secret quite accidentally the other day. I forgot that I normally preheat my oven to about 475 F and set it to 450F instead. I usually use a lidded clay pot instead of a dutch oven. I normally soak this in water and then heat it up in the oven while preheating but just decided to see what would happen if I just soaked it in water and not preheat it. I put my dough in this cold damp pot and I discovered the best oven spring I've ever gotten. My dough basically doubled in size. The bread ended up with a nice brown crust as usual too.
I bake in an clay baker too. Was always wanting to try that but was afraid of cracking the baker. used to soak the lid only but didnt make a difference. Now I spray my loaves after i put them in.
I recently tried baking my no knead bread without heating up the dutch oven and it worked amazing but I generally get pretty good oven spring. Since then I've quit preheating the dutch oven. I might try preheating again and see if I find a difference. Thanks for your great helpful videos!
My first ever loaf was done by putting my final shaped bread in the dutch oven in the fridge overnight to ferment before baking in the morning and it was my best one. As soon as i started trying to shape it and transfer to the dutch oven its been a long 3 weeks. In 8 hours I test out this theory.
My Dutch oven has walls so it is hard to drop the loaf in gently when it is hot. I lose some of my crumb just from the handling. Now I set the loaf on a parchment paper which allows me to score and then lower it gently into the hot Dutch oven without disturbing the loaf.
Im actually happy to see that even a good dough baker has issues with sourdough sometimes. Im pretty new and am getting frustrated thinking Ill never figure this stuff out
@ Jess Rabbit when I saw your comment I thought take heart you will get there trust me😊 then I noticed your post was 9 months ago and I am sure by now you will have cracked it! I am completely self taught or rather TH-cam taught; started October 2020 and although not much made sense to me initially now all good and my bread is quite popular with family and friends. Home made really is the best!
You can read about this in detail in my free book called “The Sourdough Framework”. You can read it here: breadco.de/book. If you like it, a small donation is appreciated - but absolutely no knead.
Great video. I've been going through the same frustration. It has led me to drink more. Lol. So then I fed my starter 1:1:1 unfiltered wheat beer with fluor. It luv it. Very active and better spring. I know, evey starter is different. Guessing mine is an alcoholic. Lol
So - lesson learned, too hot is not necessarily better. Interesting future experiments: 1) Ice cube to lower the temperature and create steam, 2) Preheat only the bottom part of the dutch oven? May the gluten be with all of you.
what about this experiment trying to make a loaf of sourdough using shredded wheat instead of flour, even if you can make the starter from shredded wheat. Also I wonder how lower or higher oven rack would effect your loaf. Except my oven is different than yours. I don't have any shredded wheat I am just curious if it could make a loaf
@@Phlya1 will not give you enough steam. A dutch oven or the brovn he is using, which is basically the same, is always the preferred method for at home I'd say for enough steam. Otherwise a small tray with vulcano stones or many stainless steel balls works for others like the ploetzblog guy for example.
I was wondering as to your spritzing your doughs with water prior to baking. Have you seen a notable improvement in oven spring with adding this as well?
Hi. I only preheat the Dutch oven NOT the lid. And bake at 230°c for the first 15 mins. Then lower the temp to 200°c for another 10. Then finish off with lid off for 10. Good spring and always a good ear. Love your videos.
I heat my Dutch Oven for a half hour at 450°F. But that is not for sourdough. Just an amateur who has been baking bread for 50 years just occasionally. Thanks for the science lesson. Sometimes I toss hot water in oven as I add a loaf. It helps with crusty bread.
After pre-heating the oven for 1 hour I bake at 260 C (500F) . After I put the bread oven, I turn down to 233C (450F). After 20 minutes off with the lid. I'm pretty happy with that but your advice is excellent. Don't trust your oven thermometter.
Try NOT preheating your dutch oven. The King Arthur no knead sourdough recipe they instruct you to fully preheat the oven, and place dough in the room temperature dutch oven and bake for 45 minutes before removing the lid, and another 15 minute without the lid. I swear I get much better oven spring out of any loaf. I think this prolongs the 'life' of the yeast while it's in the oven and encourages more oven spring vs. killing it all quickly...
Exactly how I do it. Preheat the oven and have the formed loaf sit in the dutch oven on the counter until oven is properly heated. I get great oven spring and fully formed ears most of the time. I may experiment with the ice cube trick to see what results I get.
Interesting. I’m going to try this. I always get a nice crust, but the centre always needs more cooking. I think it’s because the outside cooks too fast. This might be the answer 🤞
Your comment is from 2 yrs ago, but I’m hoping you will see this. Can you please tell me what temperature you set the oven? Thanks. I really want try your way 😀
@@Lilione111 , I just started using a cold Dutch oven and a cold kitchen oven and I get really good bread. I use parchment paper under the dough. Put the lid on the Dutch oven then into the kitchen oven. Turn on the oven to 450 degrees (F) and bake for 50 minutes. Remove the lid and bake for 8-12 more minutes. Cool the bread on a wire rack.
I make baguettes from a high-hydration dough. I bake them at 200c for about 20 minutes or so, in a preheated oven with a pan of boiling water on the bottom. I make sure there is plenty of steam in the oven when the dough goes in, and I spray the dough with water as well. This also works really well on other rustic type of dough.
I found the same results a while ago. I started using a Breadware pan I got for my birthday and lost all my oven spring and ears. I used a kitchenaid dutch oven before this and always had great ears. So i dropped my temperature to 450 for 20min but I added 2 icecubes. WOW! The difference was out of this world! Even if i overproof I always get an ear and some oven spring. I wish i could post pics :( I've learned so much from you and a few others on youtube over the pandemic and now I feel like a pro whenever I make bread 😁 Thank you for all your guidance!
I bought a KitchenAid Dutch oven last year but haven't tried it yet. Did yours have the rubber/silicone thing in the handle? I'm wondering if I have the same one. Mine is oval, quite large and slightly thinner iron than my 60 year old Wagner Ware D/O I'm wondering if the thinner iron contributed to a crispier crust?!
You should have continued this experiment with different lower temperatures. For example, at a temperature of 220-200 celcius. The actual temperature of the ovens in many people's homes may not reach 230 degrees. I started making bread by baking in midi ovens and the temperature of my pizza stone could reach a maximum of 210 degrees. However, when I could provide enough steam, I was able to make breads with the perfect crumb and outer texture. Your posts and the passion you have about it are inspiring. It highlights the channel of scientific approaches and sincerity in a field with thousands of parameters. Hope you continue this way, thank you.
Just at tip to calibrate your oven : use phase transition. Sucrose (usual sugar available in our kitchen) melts at 186°C. So just put a sample in a alumium sheet and check what is the temperature on the dial of your oven when the phase transition happens.
@@jelly.1899 Yeah I was hoping that with a Tylenol and the aluminum sheets you could get super pure blue meth like Walter did...Oh and check your oven temp at the same time....
That kind of reminds me of what potters do. They put cones in the kiln that melt at different temperatures and check through the peep hole if the cone has melted, and that way know that the type of clay they are using has vitrified enough. Really smart, actually :)
Thank you! I’ve always wondered why I get no ear and my bread is flat!!! And I’ve been searching for the reason. I can’t believe it’s so simple. Thank you!
Your experiment blowed my mind. What on earth i always thought that dutch oven would make "ear" to all the bread. That's why i would like to buy DO. But your video showed that the temp was so much important. Last time i baked a bread with my casserole pot. I reduced the temp to 230°C for the first 20 minutes. Wow. It turned great! There was a ovenspring. Thanks!
I have found you get better "ears" by working some flour into the surface of the dough during shaping. It produces a thin layer of low hydration dough on the surface that is stronger so it "pulls" up better as the high hydration dough expands inside.
So long story short , I have been using 250 with cast iron Dutch oven. During current lockdown I am baking a lot of bread, I will try 230 tomorrow . Excellent video
I had the same problem. My small oven intensifies the interior heat of the dutch oven. So if it's as hot as it can be--which a lot of recipes tell you is the best way to bake the bread--the bread gets a crust too fast. This traps the expanding dough and, you end up with"flying saucer" shaped loaves. The minute I turned down the heat--to pretty much the same temp as you--the crust didn't form so fast, and the dough was free to expand. In short, I got good oven spring. You absolutely need to know your oven and how it's generating heat. Smaller, older ovens tend to do what mine did--create too much heat in side the dutch oven.
i just started using a pizza stone and steaming my oven with my last two loaves, watching this video was so eye-opening as i was discovering the reasons behind such a better oven spring than i ever had with my dutch oven! thanks so much :)
I'm new at sourdough but I learned this quick. I keep oven temp around 425 and covered the whole time. (I like softer crust.) Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and the "bread of life".
Awesome! Hello from Jersey City NYC. You are helping me understand sourdough bread. You saved my beautiful starter from the brink of death by explaining that it needs whole grain flour. I
I was one of the people who answered your poll. I bake at 500° F for 20 mins lid on - 450° F for 20 mins lid off (260° C - 230° C) and always got just ok ears and oven spring compared to yours . I always put it down to the widely available bread flour here in the US being only 12.7% protein and my general laziness when it comes to scoring the dough. Next bake I will try your temps and see if I get any different results.
this video really helps, i once heard to set the oven as high as possible for baking french bread such as baguette or mini rolls, then i set it to 260°C，and i never get a beautiful ear on my bread. Today, i set may oven to 230°C， Holy molly， they are so stunning！thank u so much，Bread Code
Very true about the variability of the oven temperature- as home ovens aren't calibrated routinely (as you would with a critical lab equipment). We do need to learn and adjust the settings based on previous results (in manufacturing, we call this validation process) until you find the perfect parameters! Thankyou for sharing this video.
As a German when I heard this guy is also German I knew I was in the right place 😂 cold hearted efficiency in every way. I don’t know if anybody else enjoys the fact that bread gives you the time to work an entire day in between
I'm a newbie at home-baking, and love watching your videos and your enthusiasm for bread-baking. Thank you for sharing your knowledge which you have gleaned from your experiments. So refreshing to watch you. I downloaded your free book, and am hoping to use it to improve my skills.
I've been making bread using a poolish but didn't get the nice ear on the loaf :( your method of lowering the temperature slightly worked wonders and now it does! :D thanks for sharing!!!
I changed a few things a couple of weeks ago and my last loaf had no spring or ear. One element was heating the over and cookie sheet to 470 and then turning down to 450 once the bread goes in. The other was messing with the bulk fermentation times. This helps a ton. Thank you so much
Just getting into making bread and one trick I found is heat your oven and as you put your sourdough inside the oven turn the oven off for 20 to 25 minutes while it’s cooking covered. You will get the maximum spring.
ThankYou so much for sharing your experience, failures and possible options to correct. I think my oven and Dutch oven may be too hot now too. My bottom crust is always too dark and difficult to cut through. I use a pizza stone on lower rack and bake in middle; believing that the stone would keep the bottom from getting over done. 😕 hmmm, time to experiment again without the stone and lower the temperature. Bless you much😊
This video offers a helpful perspective. A few days ago I baked two loaves back-to-back and the second one had much better oven spring. It makes me think the temp was too high for the first loaf, and that the dutch oven cooled a bit by the time I baked the second loaf. I will try lowering my oven temperature from the get go next time and see what happens.
Wow..so my comments. When I preheat my Dutch oven (DO) I preheat both the lid and the bottom, but I leave the lid mostly off of the top. That way the interior of the oven can get hot as well. I pre heat it at 500 degrees Fahrenheit on convection. When I put the bread in the DO I spritz it just a bit just before I put the lid on, (something I learned from you) once in the oven I turn the Oven down to 450 Fahrenheit and cook for around 20 mins. Take the lid off and then switch the oven to regular bake (no convection/fan) and cook for about 20 min more. I usually get a good oven spring and an ear. Love all your experimenting!
Lol, I feel your pain in the pursuit of perfection with dough. I have been making wood/coal fired brick oven neapolitan pizza for many years now. And although all who have tried my pizzas have fell in love with them, I still strive for perfection in every detail. I have another batch of dough ready in my fridge slow fermenting as I type. I currently use 00 flour, 67-70% hydration, poolish starter for my pizza dough. My next experiment will be using a biga starter to see how it affects the overall crust. Great work, keep on baking & never settle for "just ok", raise the bar with every loaf lol. 😎👍
Some little thing to improve the crust even more: have the oven door open some centimetres for the last 5 minutes of baking. This can do wonders to that crust.
Vid suggestion: Results from different washes & glazes. I just learned brushing your bread heavily w water gives a different result (beautiful blisters) then spraying (smooth, shiny). Very curious about all this. And building strength. OMG, so important for great rise. I'm still practicing building tension on my ovals and long breads. FYI, I've practiced my "ears" on no knead breads to save time, effort and see results in a few hours. Got my first effect was on a Challah boule. I'll use that technique on my next Soursdough.😉
My first thought is too much spraying. I just spritz two or 3 times and I get a great ear every time. Another way to get the dutch oven hot quickly is to heat it on the stove top for 5 to 10 min then sticking it in oven for 10 mins for the heat to distribute. This shortens the preheat time a little.
I have to ask, have you tried spraying less water? this comes from the concept that the dough is already hydrated and the water inside the loaf will evaporate into the dutch oven while it bakes, creating the moist environment. I see you spraying so much water that makes me think the dutch oven takes a hit to temperature before going back to the oven. I try to spray as little as i can, just to wet the dough a little. I also use non adherent food paper to minimize contact with iron, which makes the bread hot but not burn on the bottom. i use less hydration but the loaves come out beautiful. 48 hours of fermentation.
I never spray with water and my bread comes out beautiful. I always bake at 450 F . 30 min with lid 15 min without. I use bread challenger baker now . And 48 h it takes to produce my bread also 😂
What temp do you ferment? I'm guessing a little while at room temp while you do your stretch and folds and then into the fridge for the rest of the time? That's how I've been experimenting and am getting good sourness but my oven spring has gotten worse
@@toddb813 after 3 or 4 stretch and fold in ambient temperature I bulk ferment till double or triple in ambient temperature too. Then I shape gently and put in the fridge for at leat12 hours. I bake straight from the fridge. If the sourdough bread has sweet inclusion I tend to bake at maybe 430 f to 450 . Savory inclusions 450 f to 465 . Lately I started including dry milk in the dough. I noticed amazing improvement in quality of flavor and crust . Good luck !!! One more thing . Last weekend it took me 12 hours to bulk ferment my prosciutto bread . Then I shaped it and put on the fridge for 12 h . It was delicious !!!!!
I’m new to sourdough making, my oven has a steam setting using water placed in the bottom of the oven then heating to 190C, baked for 50 mins worked perfect. My problem is consistency in fermentation but failure is the best teacher.
Very interesting, I've never made a sour dough bread ever. Though I learnt a Turkish bread which is super easy and can be used as either a German brochen or a French baguette. The procedure involves dropping the bread before baking in boiling water for a minute, it's an amazing technique that makes crusty bread making so much easier.
450 degrees or 230 c is plenty hot. I am a technical trained baker and the only reason you need hotter than this is to minimize oven spring by caramelizing the crust quicker. Alternatively if you want oven spring lower the temp for the first 5 minutes baking say to 425 then increase to 450 for the balance of the bake cycle. This is standard practice in the industrial baking world.
Well, this has been a fun video. I love to see young ppl enjoying the art, mechanics and science of cooking. Precious. I've seen you spray water onto the dough ball. I've read about adding an icecube. My mother said to put a bowl of boiling water into the oven and to rest the top of the lid on forks to give abt a 1/2 crack for humidity to circulate. She sprayed oil atop her loaves or butter spray. Warned me not to cut too deeply. 500f I think. Its been yrs since I've baked bc we can't have bread anymore. Enjoy your bread and 'break an egg!' Cooking is more than art. Enjoying cooking is love of life.
Thank you so much for this inspiring lesson. I'm just about to bake my first bread this weekend... first ever! It won't be sourdough - but I'll give that a try in a few weeks. Cheers from Barrie, Canada.
Donald, I don't think you should 'start with Hendrick' as a beginner. He is fantastic and I enjoy watching his videos. For a beginner who is just starting to bake bread, however, he is too scientific and therefore too complicated for me. Regards from Germany.
@@panibodoAs an experienced home baker, I concur. Do a bunch of basic recipes first and enjoy your delicious bread before trying to do this stuff. He is using more advanced techniques like scoring at a particular angle with a lamé (a specialized scoring instrument) in order to optimize the ear formation. Just focus on making yummy bread first, then add more techniques gradually. Start with easy yeast recipes to maximize your baking fun.
awesome idea with testing the real temperature of the oven...I have long suspected, that my oven's temperature and the setting does not equal...I will certainly do that!
I discovered this fact also a couple of days ago. 6 days left in the 30 day trial and i finally feel close to getting consistent results. Also I feel like everyone's oven is also different in its ability to retain/reheat after opening to start the bake. So preheating hotter or cooler depending to start may factor in. Definitely something everyone has to play a little with
Yes I feel the same, I heat the oven to 245 and turn it down to 230 when I put in the bread, but I’ve noticed the heat keeps dropping until it gets down to about 215
I will give you some tips. I also have a convection oven, in the manual they suggest you don’t bake with anything in the oven except the racks and the food. Never place any type of pan etc on the bottom floor oven the oven as it prevents the true heat of the oven ( it blocks the heat that radiates from the bottom heating element. In my manual they don’t suggest using a pan of water for steam either as it may over time ruin the fan.
Watching the top cuts to the bread prior to baking it is noticeable that as soon as the cuts are made the relief to the dough lets it start to open and expand immediately. Of note is that some of the doughs were more active in their expansion, thus raising the question if the doughs were actually handled exactly the same prior to cooking.
Hello! I'm using a mixed protocol for cooking my loaves. I proof my dough overnight in the fridge at 4C. And then, I preheat the oven, cook for the first 20 minutes at 420F (215C), 15 last minutes at 475F (245C) and then I leave the loaf in the oven turned off for 30 minutes.
Huh. For once, my underpowered gas stove seems to be a boon! I'm never able to hold my oven above 450F, so that's what I bake at. I very easily get decent oven spring and this was true even for my first few sourdough loaves. Seems like it saved me a lot of headaches in figuring out oven spring. 👍
Thanks for testing that temperature parameter. I have a combi steam oven that only goes to 225 C. So, I always thought I was shut out of good spring because I couldn’t get to those upper end finishing temperatures. Now, I will try to play with other recipes.
Thanks, interesting video. Jan Hedh, a Swedish master baker of the old school tells in his recipes for wheat sourdough loaves to start with 250 degrees Celsius, with plenty of steam, and after five minutes lower the temperature to 200. Then, after 20 minutes open the oven briefly to get rid of any remaining steam. ("Sura degar, söta bröd: Bakhantverk med Jan Hedh", Stockholm 2012) Nowadays I don't use a Dutch oven but an old cast iron skillet - from my great-grandparents - and preheat it first, and have a little saucepan with boiling water on the bottom of the oven in the beginning.
Here’s the funny thing. I actually recently raised my starting temperature to 550 degrees Fahrenheit and have gotten better oven spring. You have to remember that after 10 minutes whether 450 or 550 all the yeast has been killed. So I still believe that shaping and handling is the difference. Unfortunately you really can’t test this. But I keep trying and know that the bread will taste just as good even with a little less or more oven spring. I have also noticed I get better oven spring if I score more towards the top of the batard.
Hi, I make a lot of sourdough and I’m seeing a few problems 1. Doesn’t look like you cut deep enough. 2 . And 10 mins before you take the bread out of oven just take the lid off and spray water in the oven 10 big mist squirts not directly on bread and shut the door quick .3. Don’t spray the wet dough with water do as I suggested and you’ll get fabulous crust Good 🍀🍀🍀
The stone "steals" a lot of the heat so it takes more time heating everything. I normally take it out if I use dutch oven. And I normally bake at 250ºC, but now I'm gonna try 230, just to see what happens. Will share results soon :) Thanks for sharing your findings!
I really love this tip as I feel like my ear development is the weakest part of my sourdough. Even when I have a nicely shaped dough it seems that the ear never truly develops. I did try placing the "base" of the Dutch Oven on top of the "top" when preheating, which makes the base hotter than the top. This did help but I'm still baking at gas mark 9 (245c) and reducing to 230 after uncovering. But Gas ovens are unreliable! I check the temp of the DO with an IR thermometer and it usually goes up to anything from 250 to 270! I'll try a lower temp bake and see how it comes out, thanks!
My thought as well! I stopped spraying my bread a while back. I found I didn't get any less of an oven-spring (I'm not that experienced so I might be wrong though). Plus, I found they came out nicer looking when using rice flower :)
@@RaabNicklas ......I've had decent bread. Very tasty bread. But I've never seen a single blister yet. I'm going to try preheating only to 230⁰C ......actually measured with my thermometer 230⁰C. Makes a loaf of sense😁
I get an excellent oven spring by starting with a cold oven. The extra time getting up to temperature gives the dough time to rise befor the heat shuts down the rising. Perfect everytime. I bake with a temperature probe and pull out the loaf at 190 deg. F.
That is what I do with regular bread dough start with a cold oven and let preheat no problem, it works but with sourdough bread same thing but still learning how to get that right with the formula.
I wonder why you even decided to up the temperature since your bread last year (which is when I watched a lot of your channel) was always on point already. Also thank you so much for now always sharing the protein content of your flower. It took me ages to figure out why my bread never looked as the ones I saw on TH-cam. Until I asked about the flour underneath a video once. And that was quite the game changer. Well I haven't baked in ages due to it being so time consuming but I really want to get back into it. So I'm gonna try out your easy overnight recipe.
Very interesting experiment, if been baking for 1 year now and still not getting a nice ear. I use a deck oven without Dutch oven. The heating of only the lower part of the Dutch oven would be interesting to try. Thanks a lot for all the video's. 👍👍👍
Thank you very much for the pointers! I bake both bread and pizza so I leave the pizza stone and steel in my oven. I guess I'll be taking them both out to bake bread! Wish me luck!
@@the_bread_code ooo knoedl🥰. we know it too in Slovenia. i am just starting my sourdough journey and your channel is really helpful. thanks for all the info/experiments you share with us.
You are trying to make a living thing perfect. I understand your video, I've watched you for years but a PERFECT bread? All of your breads look perfectly edible !😊❤
So many comments after an hour of posting. Also kudos for the reason for posting, Natasha in the original post. Your a nice guy which is pretty good at making bread.
Not tried this yet but, a lower temperature being used for baking say a farmhouse loaf was done at 200c, would this work for sourdough giving it spring then increase the temperature to get the crust? 🤔 My oven max is 230c fan, I dont think it ever gets up to that. Great work 👏 👍 nice bread
have you ever thought about experimenting with a steam oven? i've been using a steam oven with my breads for the last half year or so and have been really happy with the results. I've gotten really good rise out of all of my loaves even though i know my shaping isn't always the best.
@@pieterjdw I have the Cuisinart steam oven. I normally preheat my bread pan for 45 mins at 450 then put the dough on some parchment paper and bake it for 20 mins at on bread function for 20 mins. Then I bake for 17 mins at 425
@@the_bread_code I would be really interested in this. I have a Wolf Steam oven and I cannot seem to get an ear out of it. Most of my loaves look very similar to your 'failures' in this video. I wonder if it is possible to still get that awesome ear in a steam oven. You know any examples of this with a steam oven?
Great video! First time making sourdough! I'm making my sourdough culture right now (2 days old) and i named him Jerry. Jerry and I are going to be making so many beautiful breads together for many years to come :)
My sourdough is much simpler, and I have been making it for almost 20 years. I bake at 425 and use a pan of water on the bottom shelf or ice. For 10 minutes I mist the loaves every two minutes with water in a spray bottle. After 10 minutes I turn the oven down to 375 for the balance of the cooking. I get plenty of oven spring. I like using the egg wash, it makes the loaves look nice.
I am a little confused. What was the mistake? First, I thought, it was the oven temperature that was too high, but then again, in the beginning of the video, you bake a bread at 230°C that did not turn out as you wished for. Maybe I missed something in this flood of information and you can point me in the right direction...thank you, and greetings from Vienna!
Very helpful vdo, and all of your breads look delicious! Your experimenting shows me that I will need to take the journey with my own oven and try a lower temp for the first phase of baking. Thanks and gutes snack!
Great experimentation! I love seeing that other home bakers need to figure things out 😄. I do regular and gluten free for my son and that brings out tons of 😫! These two doughs work so differently so I have to remember very different procedures haha 😄. Thanks for the fun and may the gluten be with you haha😆.
I’d love to hear of your gf recipe and how you make your starter. I would be so happy to make my daughter a gf loaf. Please do share. Or email it my email in in my about page on my channel. Thank you
All the loaves you baked looked very yummy to me. I agree that the big ear is rather appealing. I have had good success with a cloche, which is like an upside down Dutch oven. The recipe I use gives a loaf with a lot less air bubbles, but still gives a good ear(s)...I give a bunch of cuts with the lame...But I am just starting out so I enjoy the excellent tips you shared with us....and every loaf I bake is a chance to get better and better at it....
Hey there, really loved the video. I’m extremely new to bread baking so these videos are great! I just have one question. Is the dough coming straight from refrigeration or is it room temperature?
Regarding Oven Temperatures: 1) Most (if not all) Domestic Ovens in North America (NA) do not have an UPPER Heater Element option as ovens do in Europe. NA Ovens typically have a single BROILER Element that remains on all the time when chosen.... It's not designed to maintain the oven temperature.... its purpose is for rapid Pre-Heating & Broiling. 2) Many Electronic / Digital Thermostats on ovens in here in NA have a "Safety" Algorithm can affect how the ovens PreHeat / Heat if you place a Pizza Stone in initially. This large mass will fool the Thermostat into thinking its up to temperature and prematurely stop the heating, resulting in lower than desired temperatures and can also alter how often it recovers & cycles. Check your Instruction Manual that came with the oven. Mine recommended Preheating the oven first with NO Pizza Stone or large heat absorbing material in it first.. wait for several heating cycles, then place the Pizza Stone inside the already Hot oven. A good quality wired remote Temperature probe placed close to the center of the cavity, away from the elements will give you a good idea if your oven is behaving properly... Check this temp over time... not just once as you will likely be surprised as to the temperature swings you see. And if you place your Dutch oven on a sheet pan or tray in the oven, be sure to allow for as much OPEN area ALL around the perimeter for the heat to circulate from the oven element at the bottom.
@@SimonWoodburyForget Of course your answer makes sense, however I can only tell you that what I documented above is factual as I had repeated failures over time in maintaining and reaching the oven temperatures set. Calls to the manufacturer confirmed the issue was placing a Pizza Stone in while attempting to Pre-Heat... and it is clearly documented in the Ovens instruction manual, which I initially failed to read as it made no sense why the oven had this failure every time. In there quest for safety, the designers made life very difficult for users. Of course not every Digital controller has this quirk, but if you own a Whirlpool, KitchenAid, Maytag, Amana, Jenn-Air, and Consul Oven that utilized this Controller from the 2010's + then you might encounter the issue.
All ovens are different so I would say you need to experiment a little, the colour of the crust should tell you so your bread journey will be much like narrators..
Hi Hendrick, Just restarted my sourdough journey again. I have been watching many TH-cam videos to update and refresh my experience. I've got gut health issues and am diabetic, but can't leave bread out of my diet (I'm likely to shrivel up and die). So, I've been buying sourdough breads for the last 3-4 years, but that has become expensive these days and I'm not confident that the store bought breads are just flour, water and salt. Hence my renewed interest. My biggest attraction to your channel is the information about minimizing starter dough maintenance and your science based bent. I can't abide the waste and time it takes to keep a sour dough starter maintained. I guess, when I get back into a routine, I will be baking once or twice a week. But my big question is about the difference a sour dough starter to gut health versus instant yeast versus (longer) overnight proofing. My current thoughts are that whether you use instant yeast or a sour dough starter, the real work is done breaking down the sugars over a slow proofing (overnight fridge)! I expect the same gut health results are likely in either scenario and the only real difference is probably taste. I was hoping you might have some science based explanation between instant yeast/sourdough starter and there real health/gut benefits. Right now I infuse my starter with the whey from my Chobani yoghurt and a pinch of instant yeast. My logic being that controlled bacteria is probably better than the the wild strains, because in the home we can't control the negative/harmful strains. Kindest Regards Paul P.S. Keep up the great work, I love it!
Thanks Hendrick! Very interesting. I was wondering what that mistake could be, but wasn't expecting it to be the oven temperature. I'll try to bake my next loaves at 230 then 210. Usually I've always kept it at 250/230, or even 250 all along. What is even more confusing is that, in bakeries, they usually bake even higher, according to the kind of bread. But it's surely a different kind of oven... Professional edition! 🤣 And by the way, kudos for the clickbatish title 🤣🤣🤣. Works wonders I'm sure 😉
You're getting plenty of oven spring on most of your loaves. The phenomenon you're calling "oven spring" is usually referred to as an ear. For most sourdoughs the only case in which the heat can be too high is if you don't have adequate steam (and the excess heat sets the crust before the loaf has time to fully spring). Adding an ice cube to the inside of your dutch oven or just using sufficiently high hydration dough such that it releases enough steam naturally. If you want to consistently get ears you need to develop enough gas and strength in the dough during bulk fermentation. You also need to make sure that you generate enough tension in the final shape such that the dough still spreads in the way you want, even as it runs out of gas while baking. Finally when scoring it's important not to completely relieve all the tension in the dough by cutting too deeply. This is hard to describe but basically the phenomenon of the dough pushing against the score as it opens plays a huge role in the development of an ear. You can score an underproofed dough more deeply and an overproofed dough should be scored much less. Your loaves are fairly small as well so I'm not sure how much steam they're generating inside the challenger pan. Great looking bread regardless!
Underrated comment
Absolutely nailed it
Thanks for this. I always thought I wasn’t getting oven spring since I wasn’t getting the “ear”.
Extremely informative. Honestly more than this video. Thank you so much!
Wow! I have been watching videos for a couple of weeks now here and on Bake With Jack as I’m learning how to make sourdough. I’m keeping a journal of recipes and techniques, as well as helpful info I’ve gleaned. I dedicated a whole page just to your comment. Thanks so much! I’m going to try again tomorrow with this in mind. You put all the info I’ve seen over the last two weeks quite succinctly and it makes perfect sense now. 🎉
I went through a similar troubleshooting process. For years, my bread had fantastic oven spring, and I was able to develop a great ear. Then suddenly, with a different starter, and a change to the flour that I was using, I was getting awful oven spring, and no ear. I tried increasing hydration, decreasing hydration, increasing and decreasing salt, changing my bulk fermentation and final proofing times. All to no avail. Then I started playing with temperature. Previously I had baked covered at 500f for 30 minutes, then uncovered at 450. The magic bullet was preheating the dutch oven to 500 for an hour (and checking it with an IR thermometer), adding the dough to the dutch oven and immediately turning the oven down to 425. Bake covered for 30 minutes. Uncover, and bake at 425f for another 30 minutes. Turn off the heat, crack the door, and leave for another 30 minutes while the temperature coasts down. Suddenly I was getting amazing oven spring, a great ear, AND it solved my longstanding problem of overly moist and chewy crumb! Another benefit is that the bottom of the loaf is now thinner, and doesn't need a saw to cut through. That has been my standard technique for a year now, and it has never failed. I was simply cooking too hot.
Ill have to give it a try. Makes sense. If you bake the crust too quickly the inside will cook slower. Basic baking. Lower temps cook the inside even with the outside and vice versa.
I went to a sour dough bread making class and the instructor put her dough in the bread over night and straight away into the hot oven and had good results
Can
No folding?
Would this work with einkorn flour? What kind of flour do you use?
I bake at 425F for the first 35min. Then I open the cast iron pot, reduce temperature to 400F and keep baking for another 20 min. I love my bread and am very happy with it. I have a very good spring but I don't really care about having a great ear. I don't spritz the dough before baking. I will in my next test. Thank you very much for all your tutorials and advice. I love to watch them.
Even the "failed" bread would be a succes for me.
For real, the loaves that made him sad would have me jumping for joy.
🤣sorryyyyy. You will get there Sven!
The Failure is way better what i drag out of the Oven every Week :D
agree
Ho ho ho. My first loaves of bread could be used as weapons of self defence. 😂
I’ve been fighting this since moving a couple months ago. The temperature, elevation, and a new gas oven vs. old electric, where all present in this move. Before the move I got good oven spring and a good ear. Since the move, Been one failure after another! This video unlocked the secret for me! My new oven is running about 30 degrees hot! I used a thermometer in the oven, adjusted the temperature to 450 inside , and boom! Oven Spring and the ear is back! ❤. Thank you so much!
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! Trying the lower temp + introducing water into the dutch oven for more spring has been a revelation - it's like an entirely new bread. Never thought I could get this much oven spring or such a gorgeous ear as a beginner bakey. Seriously this video has been a breakthrough for me.
I really apreciate that You show us failures, not only sucseses 👍
My pleasure!
@@the_bread_code I was first on your newest post on Instagram 😄
So excited! Yesterday I followed everything you shared in this video, as well as dough strengthening, fermentation and proofing times. I wrote notes like crazy about times, temperature, etc. and this morning I finally had success all the way through the process!! Huge oven spring! Great crumb, taste, and moisture inside. And the whole trick that made the difference is your discovery that if you preheat and bake at 230c instead of a hotter oven, the crust doesn’t bake hard so quickly and the oven spring can keep expanding. Thank you so much 💗 for all you teach us , excellent videos and truly caring about your followers and wonderful sourdough bread.
Although you are a remarkable "bread teacher," you teach a lot more than bread. I love your persistence and placing a high value on failure. A true learner and a an excellent teacher.
I’m an avid baker myself and I know baking is a science, but you took it to another level 😂
I discovered this secret quite accidentally the other day. I forgot that I normally preheat my oven to about 475 F and set it to 450F instead. I usually use a lidded clay pot instead of a dutch oven. I normally soak this in water and then heat it up in the oven while preheating but just decided to see what would happen if I just soaked it in water and not preheat it. I put my dough in this cold damp pot and I discovered the best oven spring I've ever gotten. My dough basically doubled in size. The bread ended up with a nice brown crust as usual too.
I bake in an clay baker too.
Was always wanting to try that but was afraid of cracking the baker. used to soak the lid only but didnt make a difference.
Now I spray my loaves after i put them in.
At what point do you take the lid off? Or do you bake until the end with lid. Do you keep the temp at 450 throughout?
I recently tried baking my no knead bread without heating up the dutch oven and it worked amazing but I generally get pretty good oven spring. Since then I've quit preheating the dutch oven. I might try preheating again and see if I find a difference. Thanks for your great helpful videos!
My first ever loaf was done by putting my final shaped bread in the dutch oven in the fridge overnight to ferment before baking in the morning and it was my best one. As soon as i started trying to shape it and transfer to the dutch oven its been a long 3 weeks. In 8 hours I test out this theory.
My Dutch oven has walls so it is hard to drop the loaf in gently when it is hot. I lose some of my crumb just from the handling. Now I set the loaf on a parchment paper which allows me to score and then lower it gently into the hot Dutch oven without disturbing the loaf.
Im actually happy to see that even a good dough baker has issues with sourdough sometimes. Im pretty new and am getting frustrated thinking Ill never figure this stuff out
Happens all the time. But this streak of no oven spring has been the longest for me haha. I really thought I had it figured out. Wrong 🤣
@ Jess Rabbit when I saw your comment I thought take heart you will get there trust me😊 then I noticed your post was 9 months ago and I am sure by now you will have cracked it! I am completely self taught or rather TH-cam taught; started October 2020 and although not much made sense to me initially now all good and my bread is quite popular with family and friends. Home made really is the best!
You can read about this in detail in my free book called “The Sourdough Framework”. You can read it here: breadco.de/book. If you like it, a small donation is appreciated - but absolutely no knead.
What a generous person you are! I love your videos and appreciate having the book so much. Baking in Canada, one loaf at a time.
Great video. I've been going through the same frustration. It has led me to drink more. Lol. So then I fed my starter 1:1:1 unfiltered wheat beer with fluor. It luv it. Very active and better spring. I know, evey starter is different. Guessing mine is an alcoholic. Lol
This is by far the best advice anyone can give…just tried it now and wowwww what a difference it made…thank you
So - lesson learned, too hot is not necessarily better. Interesting future experiments: 1) Ice cube to lower the temperature and create steam, 2) Preheat only the bottom part of the dutch oven? May the gluten be with all of you.
How about baking on the stone with steam from a tray on the bottom?
what about this experiment trying to make a loaf of sourdough using shredded wheat instead of flour, even if you can make the starter from shredded wheat. Also I wonder how lower or higher oven rack would effect your loaf. Except my oven is different than yours. I don't have any shredded wheat I am just curious if it could make a loaf
Chilling the dough down briefly in the freezer before baking?
@@Phlya1 will not give you enough steam. A dutch oven or the brovn he is using, which is basically the same, is always the preferred method for at home I'd say for enough steam. Otherwise a small tray with vulcano stones or many stainless steel balls works for others like the ploetzblog guy for example.
I was wondering as to your spritzing your doughs with water prior to baking. Have you seen a notable improvement in oven spring with adding this as well?
Hi. I only preheat the Dutch oven NOT the lid. And bake at 230°c for the first 15 mins. Then lower the temp to 200°c for another 10. Then finish off with lid off for 10. Good spring and always a good ear. Love your videos.
I admire your perseverance and tenacity. There's so much work behind producing this wonderfully informative video. Thank you.
I heat my Dutch Oven for a half hour at 450°F.
But that is not for sourdough.
Just an amateur who has been baking bread for 50 years just occasionally.
Thanks for the science lesson.
Sometimes I toss hot water in oven as I add a loaf. It helps with crusty bread.
After pre-heating the oven for 1 hour I bake at 260 C (500F) . After I put the bread oven, I turn down to 233C (450F). After 20 minutes off with the lid. I'm pretty happy with that but your advice is excellent. Don't trust your oven thermometter.
Try NOT preheating your dutch oven. The King Arthur no knead sourdough recipe they instruct you to fully preheat the oven, and place dough in the room temperature dutch oven and bake for 45 minutes before removing the lid, and another 15 minute without the lid. I swear I get much better oven spring out of any loaf. I think this prolongs the 'life' of the yeast while it's in the oven and encourages more oven spring vs. killing it all quickly...
Exactly how I do it. Preheat the oven and have the formed loaf sit in the dutch oven on the counter until oven is properly heated. I get great oven spring and fully formed ears most of the time. I may experiment with the ice cube trick to see what results I get.
Interesting. I’m going to try this. I always get a nice crust, but the centre always needs more cooking. I think it’s because the outside cooks too fast. This might be the answer 🤞
Your comment is from 2 yrs ago, but I’m hoping you will see this. Can you please tell me what temperature you set the oven? Thanks. I really want try your way 😀
@@Lilione111 , I just started using a cold Dutch oven and a cold kitchen oven and I get really good bread. I use parchment paper under the dough. Put the lid on the Dutch oven then into the kitchen oven. Turn on the oven to 450 degrees (F) and bake for 50 minutes. Remove the lid and bake for 8-12 more minutes. Cool the bread on a wire rack.
@@Lilione111 The KAF recipe is preheat to 500f for an hour then turn down to 450f as soon as you put the dutch oven in.
I make baguettes from a high-hydration dough. I bake them at 200c for about 20 minutes or so, in a preheated oven with a pan of boiling water on the bottom. I make sure there is plenty of steam in the oven when the dough goes in, and I spray the dough with water as well. This also works really well on other rustic type of dough.
Sounds good! Matches with what I observed 200C is better than too hot.
I found the same results a while ago. I started using a Breadware pan I got for my birthday and lost all my oven spring and ears. I used a kitchenaid dutch oven before this and always had great ears. So i dropped my temperature to 450 for 20min but I added 2 icecubes. WOW! The difference was out of this world! Even if i overproof I always get an ear and some oven spring. I wish i could post pics :(
I've learned so much from you and a few others on youtube over the pandemic and now I feel like a pro whenever I make bread 😁
Thank you for all your guidance!
Awesome. Glad to hear that!
I bought a KitchenAid Dutch oven last year but haven't tried it yet. Did yours have the rubber/silicone thing in the handle? I'm wondering if I have the same one. Mine is oval, quite large and slightly thinner iron than my 60 year old Wagner Ware D/O
I'm wondering if the thinner iron contributed to a crispier crust?!
You should have continued this experiment with different lower temperatures. For example, at a temperature of 220-200 celcius. The actual temperature of the ovens in many people's homes may not reach 230 degrees. I started making bread by baking in midi ovens and the temperature of my pizza stone could reach a maximum of 210 degrees. However, when I could provide enough steam, I was able to make breads with the perfect crumb and outer texture. Your posts and the passion you have about it are inspiring. It highlights the channel of scientific approaches and sincerity in a field with thousands of parameters. Hope you continue this way, thank you.
Just at tip to calibrate your oven : use phase transition.
Sucrose (usual sugar available in our kitchen) melts at 186°C. So just put a sample in a alumium sheet and check what is the temperature on the dial of your oven when the phase transition happens.
Why aluminium sheets?
@@jelly.1899 Disposable aluminium foil: toss it when done rather than cleaning burnt sugar off something reusable.
@@AndrewHelgeCox ah, sure. It was just so specific that I thought the aluminium did something important in this reaction.
@@jelly.1899 Yeah I was hoping that with a Tylenol and the aluminum sheets you could get super pure blue meth like Walter did...Oh and check your oven temp at the same time....
That kind of reminds me of what potters do. They put cones in the kiln that melt at different temperatures and check through the peep hole if the cone has melted, and that way know that the type of clay they are using has vitrified enough. Really smart, actually :)
This is the most German video about bread in existence. Beautiful.
A complement 👍
Thank you! I’ve always wondered why I get no ear and my bread is flat!!! And I’ve been searching for the reason. I can’t believe it’s so simple. Thank you!
You couldn’t loose your mojo even if you wanted to. You’re the sweetest baker TH-cam can provide 🤗
Aww 😍, thank you!
Agreed. You won't lose the mojo
Your experiment blowed my mind. What on earth i always thought that dutch oven would make "ear" to all the bread. That's why i would like to buy DO. But your video showed that the temp was so much important. Last time i baked a bread with my casserole pot. I reduced the temp to 230°C for the first 20 minutes. Wow. It turned great! There was a ovenspring. Thanks!
I have found you get better "ears" by working some flour into the surface of the dough during shaping. It produces a thin layer of low hydration dough on the surface that is stronger so it "pulls" up better as the high hydration dough expands inside.
So long story short , I have been using 250 with cast iron Dutch oven. During current lockdown I am baking a lot of bread, I will try 230 tomorrow . Excellent video
Give it a shot. 230°C seems to work way better for me.
I had the same problem. My small oven intensifies the interior heat of the dutch oven. So if it's as hot as it can be--which a lot of recipes tell you is the best way to bake the bread--the bread gets a crust too fast. This traps the expanding dough and, you end up with"flying saucer" shaped loaves. The minute I turned down the heat--to pretty much the same temp as you--the crust didn't form so fast, and the dough was free to expand. In short, I got good oven spring. You absolutely need to know your oven and how it's generating heat. Smaller, older ovens tend to do what mine did--create too much heat in side the dutch oven.
i just started using a pizza stone and steaming my oven with my last two loaves, watching this video was so eye-opening as i was discovering the reasons behind such a better oven spring than i ever had with my dutch oven! thanks so much :)
I'm new at sourdough but I learned this quick. I keep oven temp around 425 and covered the whole time. (I like softer crust.) Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and the "bread of life".
Awesome! Hello from Jersey City NYC. You are helping me understand sourdough bread. You saved my beautiful starter from the brink of death by explaining that it needs whole grain flour. I
I was one of the people who answered your poll. I bake at 500° F for 20 mins lid on - 450° F for 20 mins lid off (260° C - 230° C) and always got just ok ears and oven spring compared to yours . I always put it down to the widely available bread flour here in the US being only 12.7% protein and my general laziness when it comes to scoring the dough. Next bake I will try your temps and see if I get any different results.
I do the same but get great oven spring. I use central milling OO flour.
How did it go?
this video really helps, i once heard to set the oven as high as possible for baking french bread such as baguette or mini rolls, then i set it to 260°C，and i never get a beautiful ear on my bread. Today, i set may oven to 230°C， Holy molly， they are so stunning！thank u so much，Bread Code
Very true about the variability of the oven temperature- as home ovens aren't calibrated routinely (as you would with a critical lab equipment). We do need to learn and adjust the settings based on previous results (in manufacturing, we call this validation process) until you find the perfect parameters! Thankyou for sharing this video.
Oh dip. This just reminded me that I think my oven actually has a calibration process.
As a German when I heard this guy is also German I knew I was in the right place 😂 cold hearted efficiency in every way. I don’t know if anybody else enjoys the fact that bread gives you the time to work an entire day in between
I'm a newbie at home-baking, and love watching your videos and your enthusiasm for bread-baking. Thank you for sharing your knowledge which you have gleaned from your experiments. So refreshing to watch you. I downloaded your free book, and am hoping to use it to improve my skills.
I've been making bread using a poolish but didn't get the nice ear on the loaf :( your method of lowering the temperature slightly worked wonders and now it does! :D thanks for sharing!!!
I changed a few things a couple of weeks ago and my last loaf had no spring or ear. One element was heating the over and cookie sheet to 470 and then turning down to 450 once the bread goes in. The other was messing with the bulk fermentation times. This helps a ton. Thank you so much
Just getting into making bread and one trick I found is heat your oven and as you put your sourdough inside the oven turn the oven off for 20 to 25 minutes while it’s cooking covered. You will get the maximum spring.
What temperature? Do you then turn the oven back on to finish cooking while uncovered?
ThankYou so much for sharing your experience, failures and possible options to correct.
I think my oven and Dutch oven may be too hot now too. My bottom crust is always too dark and difficult to cut through. I use a pizza stone on lower rack and bake in middle; believing that the stone would keep the bottom from getting over done. 😕 hmmm, time to experiment again without the stone and lower the temperature. Bless you much😊
This video offers a helpful perspective. A few days ago I baked two loaves back-to-back and the second one had much better oven spring. It makes me think the temp was too high for the first loaf, and that the dutch oven cooled a bit by the time I baked the second loaf. I will try lowering my oven temperature from the get go next time and see what happens.
Wow..so my comments. When I preheat my Dutch oven (DO) I preheat both the lid and the bottom, but I leave the lid mostly off of the top. That way the interior of the oven can get hot as well. I pre heat it at 500 degrees Fahrenheit on convection. When I put the bread in the DO I spritz it just a bit just before I put the lid on, (something I learned from you) once in the oven I turn the Oven down to 450 Fahrenheit and cook for around 20 mins. Take the lid off and then switch the oven to regular bake (no convection/fan) and cook for about 20 min more. I usually get a good oven spring and an ear. Love all your experimenting!
Lol, I feel your pain in the pursuit of perfection with dough. I have been making wood/coal fired brick oven neapolitan pizza for many years now. And although all who have tried my pizzas have fell in love with them, I still strive for perfection in every detail. I have another batch of dough ready in my fridge slow fermenting as I type. I currently use 00 flour, 67-70% hydration, poolish starter for my pizza dough. My next experiment will be using a biga starter to see how it affects the overall crust.
Great work, keep on baking & never settle for "just ok", raise the bar with every loaf lol. 😎👍
Some little thing to improve the crust even more: have the oven door open some centimetres for the last 5 minutes of baking. This can do wonders to that crust.
in the intro, they both looked amazing! YOU ARE HEADS AND SHOULDERS ABOVE MY LEVEL
Sorry 😅. You will get there 🙏🏻
Vid suggestion: Results from different washes & glazes. I just learned brushing your bread heavily w water gives a different result (beautiful blisters) then spraying (smooth, shiny). Very curious about all this. And building strength. OMG, so important for great rise. I'm still practicing building tension on my ovals and long breads.
FYI, I've practiced my "ears" on no knead breads to save time, effort and see results in a few hours. Got my first effect was on a Challah boule. I'll use that technique on my next Soursdough.😉
You're crazy, both of those loaves have amazing spring and look fantastic.
I know, he might as well be comparing golf balls.
Do not forget he is German (me too) we like it PERFECT😉
Nein. He wan'ts excellent bread. He's looking for a simple technical excellence. That's ok.
@lll lll True! But I'll take any slice lol😋👌🏽
@@ankevonjanuszkiewicz8458 yes. The final, perfect solution.
My first thought is too much spraying. I just spritz two or 3 times and I get a great ear every time. Another way to get the dutch oven hot quickly is to heat it on the stove top for 5 to 10 min then sticking it in oven for 10 mins for the heat to distribute. This shortens the preheat time a little.
I have to ask, have you tried spraying less water? this comes from the concept that the dough is already hydrated and the water inside the loaf will evaporate into the dutch oven while it bakes, creating the moist environment. I see you spraying so much water that makes me think the dutch oven takes a hit to temperature before going back to the oven. I try to spray as little as i can, just to wet the dough a little. I also use non adherent food paper to minimize contact with iron, which makes the bread hot but not burn on the bottom. i use less hydration but the loaves come out beautiful. 48 hours of fermentation.
Very interesting idea. Thanks! This is another variable that should be investigated.
I never spray with water and my bread comes out beautiful. I always bake at 450 F . 30 min with lid 15 min without. I use bread challenger baker now . And 48 h it takes to produce my bread also 😂
What temp do you ferment? I'm guessing a little while at room temp while you do your stretch and folds and then into the fridge for the rest of the time? That's how I've been experimenting and am getting good sourness but my oven spring has gotten worse
@@toddb813 after 3 or 4 stretch and fold in ambient temperature I bulk ferment till double or triple in ambient temperature too. Then I shape gently and put in the fridge for at leat12 hours. I bake straight from the fridge. If the sourdough bread has sweet inclusion I tend to bake at maybe 430 f to 450 . Savory inclusions 450 f to 465 . Lately I started including dry milk in the dough. I noticed amazing improvement in quality of flavor and crust . Good luck !!! One more thing . Last weekend it took me 12 hours to bulk ferment my prosciutto bread . Then I shaped it and put on the fridge for 12 h . It was delicious !!!!!
I spray when I want blisters.
I’m new to sourdough making, my oven has a steam setting using water placed in the bottom of the oven then heating to 190C, baked for 50 mins worked perfect. My problem is consistency in fermentation but failure is the best teacher.
Very interesting, I've never made a sour dough bread ever. Though I learnt a Turkish bread which is super easy and can be used as either a German brochen or a French baguette. The procedure involves dropping the bread before baking in boiling water for a minute, it's an amazing technique that makes crusty bread making so much easier.
That is similar to the techniques used with making bagels. There is a lot of science there but it makes a great crust.
Turn off the oven for the first 20 minutes, then open the Dutch oven, turn the oven back on at 425° and bake for 25 minutes.
450 degrees or 230 c is plenty hot. I am a technical trained baker and the only reason you need hotter than this is to minimize oven spring by caramelizing the crust quicker.
Alternatively if you want oven spring lower the temp for the first 5 minutes baking say to 425 then increase to 450 for the balance of the bake cycle. This is standard practice in the industrial baking world.
In my mind, if you can eat it, it's a success 😂
The pronto posting is very muchly appreciated! My new normal is now 450deg F.
“Please, try to eat some bread” he yells desperately as his neighbors try to leave his house
🤣🤣
Well, this has been a fun video. I love to see young ppl enjoying the art, mechanics and science of cooking. Precious. I've seen you spray water onto the dough ball. I've read about adding an icecube. My mother said to put a bowl of boiling water into the oven and to rest the top of the lid on forks to give abt a 1/2 crack for humidity to circulate. She sprayed oil atop her loaves or butter spray. Warned me not to cut too deeply. 500f I think. Its been yrs since I've baked bc we can't have bread anymore. Enjoy your bread and 'break an egg!' Cooking is more than art. Enjoying cooking is love of life.
Thank you so much for this inspiring lesson. I'm just about to bake my first bread this weekend... first ever! It won't be sourdough - but I'll give that a try in a few weeks. Cheers from Barrie, Canada.
Donald, I don't think you should 'start with Hendrick' as a beginner. He is fantastic and I enjoy watching his videos. For a beginner who is just starting to bake bread, however, he is too scientific and therefore too complicated for me. Regards from Germany.
@@panibodoAs an experienced home baker, I concur. Do a bunch of basic recipes first and enjoy your delicious bread before trying to do this stuff. He is using more advanced techniques like scoring at a particular angle with a lamé (a specialized scoring instrument) in order to optimize the ear formation.
Just focus on making yummy bread first, then add more techniques gradually. Start with easy yeast recipes to maximize your baking fun.
awesome idea with testing the real temperature of the oven...I have long suspected, that my oven's temperature and the setting does not equal...I will certainly do that!
I discovered this fact also a couple of days ago. 6 days left in the 30 day trial and i finally feel close to getting consistent results.
Also I feel like everyone's oven is also different in its ability to retain/reheat after opening to start the bake. So preheating hotter or cooler depending to start may factor in. Definitely something everyone has to play a little with
Yes I feel the same, I heat the oven to 245 and turn it down to 230 when I put in the bread, but I’ve noticed the heat keeps dropping until it gets down to about 215
I will give you some tips. I also have a convection oven, in the manual they suggest you don’t bake with anything in the oven except the racks and the food. Never place any type of pan etc on the bottom floor oven the oven as it prevents the true heat of the oven ( it blocks the heat that radiates from the bottom heating element. In my manual they don’t suggest using a pan of water for steam either as it may over time ruin the fan.
Watching the top cuts to the bread prior to baking it is noticeable that as soon as the cuts are made the relief to the dough lets it start to open and expand immediately. Of note is that some of the doughs were more active in their expansion, thus raising the question if the doughs were actually handled exactly the same prior to cooking.
Hello! I'm using a mixed protocol for cooking my loaves. I proof my dough overnight in the fridge at 4C. And then, I preheat the oven, cook for the first 20 minutes at 420F (215C), 15 last minutes at 475F (245C) and then I leave the loaf in the oven turned off for 30 minutes.
Huh. For once, my underpowered gas stove seems to be a boon! I'm never able to hold my oven above 450F, so that's what I bake at. I very easily get decent oven spring and this was true even for my first few sourdough loaves. Seems like it saved me a lot of headaches in figuring out oven spring. 👍
Great presentation. Thank you for inviting us into your trials and errors. Your bread is beautiful!
Thanks for testing that temperature parameter. I have a combi steam oven that only goes to 225 C. So, I always thought I was shut out of good spring because I couldn’t get to those upper end finishing temperatures. Now, I will try to play with other recipes.
Thanks, interesting video. Jan Hedh, a Swedish master baker of the old school tells in his recipes for wheat sourdough loaves to start with 250 degrees Celsius, with plenty of steam, and after five minutes lower the temperature to 200. Then, after 20 minutes open the oven briefly to get rid of any remaining steam. ("Sura degar, söta bröd: Bakhantverk med Jan Hedh", Stockholm 2012) Nowadays I don't use a Dutch oven but an old cast iron skillet - from my great-grandparents - and preheat it first, and have a little saucepan with boiling water on the bottom of the oven in the beginning.
Here’s the funny thing. I actually recently raised my starting temperature to 550 degrees Fahrenheit and have gotten better oven spring. You have to remember that after 10 minutes whether 450 or 550 all the yeast has been killed. So I still believe that shaping and handling is the difference. Unfortunately you really can’t test this. But I keep trying and know that the bread will taste just as good even with a little less or more oven spring. I have also noticed I get better oven spring if I score more towards the top of the batard.
Hi, I make a lot of sourdough and I’m seeing a few problems 1. Doesn’t look like you cut deep enough. 2 . And 10 mins before you take the bread out of oven just take the lid off and spray water in the oven 10 big mist squirts not directly on bread and shut the door quick .3. Don’t spray the wet dough with water do as I suggested and you’ll get fabulous crust Good 🍀🍀🍀
The stone "steals" a lot of the heat so it takes more time heating everything. I normally take it out if I use dutch oven. And I normally bake at 250ºC, but now I'm gonna try 230, just to see what happens. Will share results soon :)
Thanks for sharing your findings!
Yep. I learned the hard way to pay more attention to the baking temperature. Please do share them. Thanks!
What were your results?
I really love this tip as I feel like my ear development is the weakest part of my sourdough. Even when I have a nicely shaped dough it seems that the ear never truly develops. I did try placing the "base" of the Dutch Oven on top of the "top" when preheating, which makes the base hotter than the top. This did help but I'm still baking at gas mark 9 (245c) and reducing to 230 after uncovering. But Gas ovens are unreliable! I check the temp of the DO with an IR thermometer and it usually goes up to anything from 250 to 270! I'll try a lower temp bake and see how it comes out, thanks!
Next experiment- water spraying like mad vs no spraying. What are the outcomes of all this spraying?
Good idea.
My thought as well! I stopped spraying my bread a while back. I found I didn't get any less of an oven-spring (I'm not that experienced so I might be wrong though). Plus, I found they came out nicer looking when using rice flower :)
@@RaabNicklas ......I've had decent bread. Very tasty bread. But I've never seen a single blister yet. I'm going to try preheating only to 230⁰C ......actually measured with my thermometer 230⁰C. Makes a loaf of sense😁
Spraying gives you a completely different result than brushing with water very heavily. See this vid. th-cam.com/video/KeEcgmGGbBs/w-d-xo.html
Spraying vs brushing give a very diff result. Brushing off the flour does also:
th-cam.com/video/KeEcgmGGbBs/w-d-xo.html
I get an excellent oven spring by starting with a cold oven. The extra time getting up to temperature gives the dough time to rise befor the heat shuts down the rising. Perfect everytime. I bake with a temperature probe and pull out the loaf at 190 deg. F.
That is what I do with regular bread dough start with a cold oven and let preheat no problem, it works but with sourdough bread same thing but still learning how to get that right with the formula.
I wonder why you even decided to up the temperature since your bread last year (which is when I watched a lot of your channel) was always on point already. Also thank you so much for now always sharing the protein content of your flower. It took me ages to figure out why my bread never looked as the ones I saw on TH-cam. Until I asked about the flour underneath a video once. And that was quite the game changer. Well I haven't baked in ages due to it being so time consuming but I really want to get back into it. So I'm gonna try out your easy overnight recipe.
My pleasure. The full overnight recipe will be out soon 🙏🏻👍
Very interesting experiment, if been baking for 1 year now and still not getting a nice ear. I use a deck oven without Dutch oven. The heating of only the lower part of the Dutch oven would be interesting to try. Thanks a lot for all the video's. 👍👍👍
Sourdough truly is as much science as art. It's been a fun challenge.
Thank you very much for the pointers! I bake both bread and pizza so I leave the pizza stone and steel in my oven. I guess I'll be taking them both out to bake bread! Wish me luck!
thank you for this informative video. i'm just wondering who ate all the “failed” bread😀
🤣my neighbours and - the extra 5kg I gained. But - failed bread is perfect for making German style "Knödel". Very good!
@@the_bread_code ooo knoedl🥰. we know it too in Slovenia. i am just starting my sourdough journey and your channel is really helpful. thanks for all the info/experiments you share with us.
surprising he doesn't weigh 500 lbs.
@@the_bread_code well all the failed attempts were delicious and no one can feel bad about that
You are trying to make a living thing perfect. I understand your video, I've watched you for years but a PERFECT bread? All of your breads look perfectly edible !😊❤
So many comments after an hour of posting. Also kudos for the reason for posting, Natasha in the original post. Your a nice guy which is pretty good at making bread.
Thanks!
Not tried this yet but, a lower temperature being used for baking say a farmhouse loaf was done at 200c, would this work for sourdough giving it spring then increase the temperature to get the crust? 🤔
My oven max is 230c fan, I dont think it ever gets up to that. Great work 👏 👍 nice bread
Yep. That should work. With the fan it could be that you might have to use a dutch oven.
have you ever thought about experimenting with a steam oven? i've been using a steam oven with my breads for the last half year or so and have been really happy with the results. I've gotten really good rise out of all of my loaves even though i know my shaping isn't always the best.
Great idea for another experiment. My mom has one and I could hijack it for some tests.
Could you share your best practice with steam oven
@@pieterjdw I have the Cuisinart steam oven. I normally preheat my bread pan for 45 mins at 450 then put the dough on some parchment paper and bake it for 20 mins at on bread function for 20 mins. Then I bake for 17 mins at 425
@@the_bread_code I would be really interested in this. I have a Wolf Steam oven and I cannot seem to get an ear out of it. Most of my loaves look very similar to your 'failures' in this video. I wonder if it is possible to still get that awesome ear in a steam oven. You know any examples of this with a steam oven?
Just moved to Germany and all the bakeries are crappy industrial chain bakeries. Had to restart my baking hobby, thanks for this channel.
Great video!
First time making sourdough!
I'm making my sourdough culture right now (2 days old) and i named him Jerry.
Jerry and I are going to be making so many beautiful breads together for many years to come :)
My sourdough is much simpler, and I have been making it for almost 20 years. I bake at 425 and use a pan of water on the bottom shelf or ice. For 10 minutes I mist the loaves every two minutes with water in a spray bottle. After 10 minutes I turn the oven down to 375 for the balance of the cooking. I get plenty of oven spring. I like using the egg wash, it makes the loaves look nice.
Me, a german, listening to a german explaining bread in english. Hah, globalisation!
I love it too!!!
He's so articulate. I love his diction.
I’m an American and I seem to keep following German bakers haha
Haha me too 😅
@@SpencerJ289 Bread is the one food-item germans are good and maybe even best at a
Oven spring has been my bane for years. I'm glad u finally nailed it because with a frustrated German baker, that might have led to WWIII!
I am a little confused. What was the mistake? First, I thought, it was the oven temperature that was too high, but then again, in the beginning of the video, you bake a bread at 230°C that did not turn out as you wished for. Maybe I missed something in this flood of information and you can point me in the right direction...thank you, and greetings from Vienna!
Thank you! So it's the too high temperature. Go for 230°C, that will do the trick.
Very helpful vdo, and all of your breads look delicious! Your experimenting shows me that I will need to take the journey with my own oven and try a lower temp for the first phase of baking. Thanks and gutes snack!
Great experimentation! I love seeing that other home bakers need to figure things out 😄. I do regular and gluten free for my son and that brings out tons of 😫! These two doughs work so differently so I have to remember very different procedures haha 😄. Thanks for the fun and may the gluten be with you haha😆.
I’d love to hear of your gf recipe and how you make your starter. I would be so happy to make my daughter a gf loaf. Please do share. Or email it my email in in my about page on my channel. Thank you
All the loaves you baked looked very yummy to me. I agree that the big ear is rather appealing. I have had good success with a cloche, which is like an upside down Dutch oven. The recipe I use gives a loaf with a lot less air bubbles, but still gives a good ear(s)...I give a bunch of cuts with the lame...But I am just starting out so I enjoy the excellent tips you shared with us....and every loaf I bake is a chance to get better and better at it....
Hey there, really loved the video. I’m extremely new to bread baking so these videos are great! I just have one question. Is the dough coming straight from refrigeration or is it room temperature?
Thank you! Directly from the fridge into the oven.
Regarding Oven Temperatures: 1) Most (if not all) Domestic Ovens in North America (NA) do not have an UPPER Heater Element option as ovens do in Europe. NA Ovens typically have a single BROILER Element that remains on all the time when chosen.... It's not designed to maintain the oven temperature.... its purpose is for rapid Pre-Heating & Broiling. 2) Many Electronic / Digital Thermostats on ovens in here in NA have a "Safety" Algorithm can affect how the ovens PreHeat / Heat if you place a Pizza Stone in initially. This large mass will fool the Thermostat into thinking its up to temperature and prematurely stop the heating, resulting in lower than desired temperatures and can also alter how often it recovers & cycles. Check your Instruction Manual that came with the oven. Mine recommended Preheating the oven first with NO Pizza Stone or large heat absorbing material in it first.. wait for several heating cycles, then place the Pizza Stone inside the already Hot oven. A good quality wired remote Temperature probe placed close to the center of the cavity, away from the elements will give you a good idea if your oven is behaving properly... Check this temp over time... not just once as you will likely be surprised as to the temperature swings you see. And if you place your Dutch oven on a sheet pan or tray in the oven, be sure to allow for as much OPEN area ALL around the perimeter for the heat to circulate from the oven element at the bottom.
@@SimonWoodburyForget Of course your answer makes sense, however I can only tell you that what I documented above is factual as I had repeated failures over time in maintaining and reaching the oven temperatures set. Calls to the manufacturer confirmed the issue was placing a Pizza Stone in while attempting to Pre-Heat... and it is clearly documented in the Ovens instruction manual, which I initially failed to read as it made no sense why the oven had this failure every time. In there quest for safety, the designers made life very difficult for users. Of course not every Digital controller has this quirk, but if you own a Whirlpool, KitchenAid, Maytag, Amana, Jenn-Air, and Consul Oven that utilized this Controller from the 2010's + then you might encounter the issue.
230 degrees for the first 25 minutes, then what temp? Thank you for the help, can't wait to bake in the morning.
All ovens are different so I would say you need to experiment a little, the colour of the crust should tell you so your bread journey will be much like narrators..
Hi Hendrick, Just restarted my sourdough journey again. I have been watching many TH-cam videos to update and refresh my experience. I've got gut health issues and am diabetic, but can't leave bread out of my diet (I'm likely to shrivel up and die). So, I've been buying sourdough breads for the last 3-4 years, but that has become expensive these days and I'm not confident that the store bought breads are just flour, water and salt. Hence my renewed interest. My biggest attraction to your channel is the information about minimizing starter dough maintenance and your science based bent. I can't abide the waste and time it takes to keep a sour dough starter maintained. I guess, when I get back into a routine, I will be baking once or twice a week. But my big question is about the difference a sour dough starter to gut health versus instant yeast versus (longer) overnight proofing. My current thoughts are that whether you use instant yeast or a sour dough starter, the real work is done breaking down the sugars over a slow proofing (overnight fridge)! I expect the same gut health results are likely in either scenario and the only real difference is probably taste. I was hoping you might have some science based explanation between instant yeast/sourdough starter and there real health/gut benefits. Right now I infuse my starter with the whey from my Chobani yoghurt and a pinch of instant yeast. My logic being that controlled bacteria is probably better than the the wild strains, because in the home we can't control the negative/harmful strains. Kindest Regards Paul P.S. Keep up the great work, I love it!
Thanks Hendrick! Very interesting. I was wondering what that mistake could be, but wasn't expecting it to be the oven temperature.
I'll try to bake my next loaves at 230 then 210.
Usually I've always kept it at 250/230, or even 250 all along.
What is even more confusing is that, in bakeries, they usually bake even higher, according to the kind of bread. But it's surely a different kind of oven... Professional edition! 🤣
And by the way, kudos for the clickbatish title 🤣🤣🤣. Works wonders I'm sure 😉
they have steam injection.