Hey Sonny love this episode. Bought the shirt. Now I am looking for your hat because I love that trademark on the front for lack of a better term. If you have a minute I'd appreciate any info. Thanks, love you man.
@@Foodgeek Sune this was a very big eye opener the method that I wanted to know more about the oven need to come to temperature you need to do more videos why not make a bread that needs alot of Hydration with wheat and grains bye 👋 from 🇨🇦 #YSW
Dude! I didn't realize you were only proofing to 25% before putting the dough in the fridge. I just tried that along with this oven off method and I got amazingly tall oven spring. I'm gonna keeping playing with these two techniques. Thank you!
I though the shaping was out of the fridge. he didnt specify how long he is shaping it but I guess in fridge it would take whole night the fermentation.
@@marcygrote3800I find amazing these people that just put a question mark under a comment, expecting people to decipher what kind of question they're asking on their own head.
You just helped me with your comment. I am making a King Arthur Whole Wheat high hydration sourdough bread, and when I prepared it last time, I was confused by their rising schedule. Because of this, I kept it on the counter longer doing stretch and folds, and it did not rise well when baking it. It resembled a UFO. Now I understand because of your comment, so thank you! Along with your help and turning the oven off, maybe I will have better luck.
Because you made two with the oven off, I'm thinking there's something to it. I'm going to try this on breads where huge oven spring won't destroy my design. The other thought I had was that making this video must have taken you hours and hours! Thank you for all the work you put into these experiments.
Nice experiment, Sune. Through trial and error, I've concluded the dutch oven method always works best for me. I've tried turning the oven down to various temps down to as low as 325F after the first 20 minutes, and settled on 425 F as the optimal temp after the first 20 minutes. So for me (YMMV), 500F for the first 20 mins with lid on, 425F for the next 5-10 mins with lid on, 425F for the final 15-20 minutes with lid off. I use parchment paper under my dough in the dutch oven, which eliminates the burnt flour and allows me to drop an ice cube behind the parchment paper on the side to bump up the oven spring. I'm using Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour with good and consistent results. My starter is 1/2 bread flour and 1/2 dark rye. I continue to love your experiment and technique videos.
I'd like to see an experiment where you test temperature and moisture as the two key variables, everything else being equal. For example, if you raise the moisture level in the dutch oven by adding an ice cube or heavily spraying the surface with water before putting the lid on, would temperature have an effect on oven spring and crumb? I would expect the higher the temperature, the more moisture you need to add to keep the surface gelatinized enough to allow for expansion.
it certainly seems to be the simplest technique with a great outcome. I’m not sure I want to deal with changing tempers up and down and adding steam for only a little payback.
Thanks for your comments Keith. For the last few bakes I have dropped ice cubes behind the parchment paper too . Great results indeed. I also lower the temp for the last half bake. This was a great experiment by Sune. I bake two loaves at a time . One goes into a dutch oven, and one on a stone with a repurposed deep cover/hood from an electric frying pan which always gave me the best results. Now both are producing very good consistent results. side note: they say never change your starter feed too quickly. They are right. I radically changed my starter feed to make two starters , one rye and one wheat , and they both stalled. I'm finally getting them back to full strength. Just a caution to anyone who is thinking about changing their starter over.
Hi Keith, I use the Dutch oven method as well, but the bottom of my bread burns. I've used cornmeal, and parchment paper. Any tips? Thank you if advance.
Tried it and I can verify the results from Sune. Works great! Best oven spring I ever had, every time. I find steam left every time I open my dutch oven now, compared to oven on, where I never found steam left. My theory now is, that my oven, even on 'top+bottom' heat (so no fan), still extracts air from the oven, and that way removes my steam from my dutch oven. This is delayed by turning the oven off. I turn it off for 30 min and turn it on for the last 20. Great additional tip, for those who bake a double batch like me: if you put the second bread in the oven directly after removing the first bread, you can turn off the oven for about 50 minutes and have a half-baked bread! I put that in the fridge in a bag to bake off after I finish the first bread from the batch. Oven spring is not as good as the first bread, but hey: free half-bake energy-wise
Dear Sune -- despite watching hundreds of 'how-to' videos on how to make bread, your approach and presentation allowed me to finally become successful. I specifically cherish your 'experiments', mainly because I hate the 'limits' of recipes, pursuing practicality and taste as the end result. Thus, while I try to follow overall 'baker' percentages, my variables constantly change to reach the preferred taste. Here are some of them: 1. adding apple cider vinegar to water 2. autolyzing overnight (water and wh flour) 3. colder temperature (during the whole process) ~65F -- room temperature or colder like in a traditional village. 4. retardation in the fridge, week or longer. 5. milling own flour from wheat and rye berries. 6. water (mineral, filtered, sprinkled with pineapple juice) Congratulations on making this process simple and attainable to all new bakers. Thank you for all you do!
Yesterday I tried this method. My dough, one loaf, was 75% hydration flour (650 g), starter 50/50 Hydration (150g), salt (17 g) water (469g). Bulk proof 6.5 hours at 80 F, in Frig (39 F) for 16 hrs. Oven pre heated at 525 F for one hour with dutch oven with cover. I scored dough with my sciccors 5 cuts horizontal. Placed dough with parchment paper in hot pot placed cover on placed in oven closed door and immediately turned oven off for 27 minutes. Opened oven turned pot 180 degrees for even cooking removed lid. Placed oven on 450 F for 40 minutes. Result the best oven spring I ever achieved with this flour which has a rather low protein content for bread flour. Beautiful open crumb, I think I now have a new way to bake bread. Thanks Sune!!!
@@alfontana6242 a 2 and 1/2 lb loaf is ridiculously large for me. We have 3 people in my home, we barely go through half of that for 3-4 days, before it’s too stale. But that’s almost 3 times the regular bake time! At least for me.
This was fun to watch! In my last loaf after my DO at 500 for 20 mins I took off the lid and knocked down to 450 for the last 25 but I accidently forgot to hit the start so it cooked with oven off. I realized when it wasn't as brown and kicked it up for a few til it browned well. One of the best loaves I ever made!
I didn't try actually turning off my oven as it's a small one that only heats up to 240 degrees, so I'm afraid it would lose too much temperature. But I tried something different also inspired by your experiment and it works super well. First I heat up the oven for an hour with the pizza stone inside, then I change the heat setting for 15 minutes to bottom heat only to let the bread rise and only then I put the heat back to both bottom and top heater. I used to heat on both ends throughout the baking time and I think as the top heater is very close to the bread, the crust was forming too quickly before the sourdough could give the bread a kick. Now it's rising very nicely, though far from your over spring. Thank you again for helping me on my breadmaking journey!
I have a very large dutch oven, and usually place my dough on parchment paper. Before closing the lid, I dump a little less than 1/4 of a cup of ice water into the dutch oven and quickly put on the lid. The dutch oven is so big that the water pretty much turns into steam right away and the lid traps the steam. I get good oven spring....but this new method with the heat "off" is very interesting. I will try it with my next loaf (maybe tonight). I may cook for 3 minutes, than cut off the heat for the next 17 minutes. Your channel is always so interesting! Your are an inspiration to all of us.
Hi Sune, your basic recipe has become my default, with different variations every time I bake. I'm getting great results! Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, from me and from my friends and family who enjoy it. Safra
Love the shirt. I went straight to your merch site hoping you were selling them but no luck. I need to find one of those! Thanks for the wonderful bread experiments. I always learn something.
@@MaryvelFriesen Hi, all ovens differ, I heat up mine to 260degC at least then slide loaves in and turn off completely for 15mins (with water bath at bottom)then i remove water and I turn back on to190C for 26-27mins for final bake then turn off and crack oven door for another 10mins before removing loaves. All trial and error! Remember, there's no right or wrong way. Hope this helps.
My oven goes into preheat mode when I turn it on, no matter what mode setting I choose. This ends up turning the broiler element on to preheat if I were to turn the oven back on with my loaf in and that ends up scorching the top. I would need two ovens to do the heat off heat back on method. Am I missing something here?
@@marky6969 hey if it's a hassle just ignore the on and off bit and just cook as per 'normal', all ovens are sooo different and variable. The sourdough journey is all about just doing and learning thru trial and error. Keep persevering!
Some of my best loaves regarding open crumb were discovered by accident when once I was rushing around doing stuff and put my cold fermented loaf in an unheated Dutch oven and threw it in the ‘almost hot enough’ oven because I didn’t have time to wait. I thought “oh well, I’ll see how it turns out”. I was amazed! Now when I want a very open crumb, that’s what I do. In general, house bread isn’t so open crumb because I use a lot of cracked grains and our bread is mostly for sandwiches and French toast. That’s my experience, but I’d love to see the pro do it. Unfortunately, a lot of my best loaves were accidents and “see how it turns out” that I can’t replicate as well as this one.
I've tried this with my last three loaves in a dutch oven and yes the results are excellent. Really upped my game with some beautiful loaves. This defies every baking instruction I've ever seen. Thanks for the video!
That is an interesting one, I wonder what's the reason. If I had to guess I'd say it's the gradually lowering off the temperature, the dough is initially blasted with 250c which heats up the water in it, starting the baking process, and with the oven turned off the temperature is rapidly dropping, the crust is not setting so this maximizes the oven spring... but, it's just a guess. Thanks for another great video Sune.
Thank you for the tip!!! I tried this for 3 bakes this week, got very nice oven spring, and will continue experimenting to see if I can optimize the process for my oven
I tried this method with my recent sourdough bake, and it turned out amazing! The crumb was soft, with plenty of holes, but not too much. The crust was golden and no burnt parts ( I know it’s ok to have a bit of burnt parts on the crust and bottom, but I don’t like it). I will be using* this method from now on.
@@SimpleSourdough - not me. I’m retired. I’m not tempted to do anything until the alarm on my phone makes me think about what the hell is going on. Then I look for reasons to ignore it…. and go back to TH-cam if I can justify it.
Its nothing new really. In Rofco ovens we bake this way and there is an explanation. When the oven is on the top and bottom element are on and this helps in forming the crust earlier even if steamed. So better turn off the oven or lower the heat for 20 minutes and afyer release steam and increase heat til finished baking.
wow ! Since I am still learning I don't yet have the courage to try this method (I am happy when I get a decent bread)! However as I am finding the quantities and also flours that suit me most things are improving. So as soon as I feel my bread game is up to the standard I want I will definitely try this approach. Thanks again for the interesting videos.
I just tried this with a cloche covering the non-heat portion (& I use a countertop oven that only gets to 450°). This was a yeast bread from leftover baguette dough I had in the fridge overnight and which I dumped into an oval banneton to rise a bit before baking. Despite all the differences to your recipe, I was so pleased with the end result! Thanks, Sune! 😍
After watching this TH-cam, I use this cold oven technique for all of my breads: whole wheat, spelt, ciabatta, sourdough. Oven spring is definitely increased in all. Saves oven time, too. Thank you.
I've used the Dutch oven technique but I prefer the Steam Heat Off. I'm a jam person, so it's just right for me. Thanks for the demo and the intro to the steaming tray. I've just always thrown in lots of ice cubes, but your method is more elegant and steady. Thanks.
That was up there with some of the best experiments I've watched. Thanks for your time. It helps us all out a lot on our lifetime journey of mastering sourdough. In my opinion, you can never stop learning. There's always more to know and learn 😁
Would actually love to see you do this trick and compare it with cold oven baking (no preheating)! It seems to work well with creating oven spring too. But which is better?
Hi Sune, thank you for this interesting video. So how exactly did you bake the bread: what was your preheat temperature? Did you bake your bread longer than usual? Or did you only use the different heating method in the second part (convection)?
Interesting experiment. I like the ear of your control method bread best - and besides the aesthetics, that would come with extra taste and crispiness.
I use my Dutch oven by default -You may have watched The Bread Codes’ video where he looks into the initial oven temperature and concludes that rather than starting at 250c, 230c gets better spring. It’d be interesting to know what temp your oven drops to in those first 20 mins. Also consider using a cold Dutch oven lid so as not to dry out the top before it can fully rise (though I’m sure that wouldn’t work with the challenger pan)
A bit skeptical, but got my best ovenspring using the cold oven technique today. Added a bottle of warm oatmeal stout in place of water. Thanks for all your helpful tips and the experiments you run!
Seems like a variation on the "cold bake" theme. Makes sense - the bread has time to expand to maximum capacity before the crust sets hard. I get similar results baking from a cold start in a lidded baking vessel (usually a romertopf). Says something for not baking at high temperatures - until you want to finish the crust. Pork crckling works in a similar manner!
@@JCPerez-jz5cv I think cold bake here refers dough straight from fridge to hot oven. To help scoring sometimes I even set dougn in freezer for 15 minutes, then score and straight to oven. Note: my oven is a fan only oven (worst thing for 1st stage) and I don't have a challenger nor similar (big pirex roaster) big enough. So I need all the tricks, like baking 2 loafs at same time for extra steam.
@@JCPerez-jz5cv cold oven, cold vessel, cold dough I mist a little water before putting on lid. convection 425F nonfan 450 f 50min then take lid off to brown to way you like it. Works like a charm.
Oh my goodness! I just tried this (Dutch oven, turn oven off) and I’ve gotten the best spring ever, and I’ve been making sourdough for many years! Thank you so much!
@@deezstylz11 yes, that’s what I did. I preheated to 500 with Dutch oven, loaded the bread into it, then turned off the oven, waited 20 minutes, removed the lid, and baked for additional time (turned the oven back on to 450). It came out really nice.
While I’m not a huge fan of an open crumb for everyday baking, I’m definitely going to give this a try as an experiment. There is no doubt that it makes for a very pretty loaf of sourdough!
I use baking paper under my loaf in the DO. I wet the paper and crunch it up before putting the bread on. I also use the oven turn off method. Since I’m doing both methods I’m really happy with my oven spring!
Very interesting. It seems that the steam allows the bread to expand before the hard crust limits it and the hard crust forms in the second bake. I noticed that you steamed for 20 minutes but how long did you bake in the second stage when the oven was turned back on to finish the baking?
9:26 - Normal steam oven's bread was very flat by default, probably you let it flatten in the desk - that's greatly affect the crumb, so that it will not that open. Anyway, I prefer that crumb, making these huge "tunnel" is an error for me.
I tried this without expecting success. However, this is my new best practice. I'd never ever turn the oven off. I thought the oven had to be hot hot hot all the time. Thank you for the wonderful tip.
Very nice all bread, I never get good oven spring, will try these and see what happens, love that baker, already went on their to look around, thanks for this viseo
Wow. Amazing spring and crumb with the oven off and steamed! Very nice! Interesting that you had some tunneling on the Dutch oven with the oven off. I often get tunneling and I haven’t been able to figure out what’s causing it!
after I moved into a new house with a gas oven, my steam oven technique did not work as the oven would vent the steam if it sensed there was any inside. I used to be able to bake 4 loaves extremely fast with that method so now i'm going to try again with this technique of turning off the oven to prevent it from venting the steam. Great idea!
Very interesting!!… I’m a neophyte but getting good results ( most of the time!).. I’ll definitely try the next one turning the oven off! Thank you for experimenting! Greetings from Orlando Florida
Nice experiment. I wonder if the type of baking vessel might also affect oven spring? I just bought a large glass (borosilicate) casserole dish and baked a couple of loaves with the oven left on during the first baking phase and the spring was noticeably better than I normally get with my Le Creuset dutch oven. Could this be because the glass casserole has a tighter fitting lid and therefore the steam remains inside longer than the Le Creuset? Next, I will try baking loaves in the glass dish with the oven turned off as you did in this video. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks.
Informative experimentation is fun and extremely valuable. And it was very interesting to see the final results. Spring was definitely amazing! That said; I prefer to be able to put stuff on the bread (sandwich style). So though many people may prefer the baking success of superior rise, my choice would be #3 as there is much more usable surface to spread the mayo, mustard, cream cheese, peanut butter, butter, etc... It's also much heartier for eating with a chunk of bread in one hand, soup spoon in the other, occasionally dunking the bread into the soup/stew along the way. In short, I think I enjoy the bread part more than the air-filled holes. :-) But again, I always enjoy a fun, interesting experiment.
@@azannah hehe! As I noted; my thinking is, holes are air - not actual bread. So it's really hard to spread butter onto the air between the bread areas. There's plenty of air to breathe everywhere. When I want to eat bread, I would rather have it be mostly the bread part! ;-) Maybe that's just me. (or maybe you too.)
Having tried this on a few occasions since your video - I get really good results (oven spring) when I turn oven off. Recommend this method for extra oven spring if using a dutch oven type vessel to bake your bread in. Works even better if you spray water over the bread before putting in the oven. Tusind tak Sune!
I started sourdough baking in the summer of 2021, so am very much still in thelearning process. Proper bread flour is not readily available here in Norway so I've been experimenting with many alternatives but I recently found som bread flour in a local discount store. I used this trick, turning off the oven for the first 25 minutes, with oven preheated to 230 degrees (cast iron dutch oven). WOW! best results I've had so far, despite my dough being a bit too stiff and, therefor, difficult to work with. Next time I'll increase from 80% to 85% hydration and see if results are even better. Thanks to you and The Bread Code for all you do, the two of you have taught me so much.
There was no card to link to your Danish colleagues' website or channel. Cool experiment. It's hard to believe that the retained heat in the cast iron was affected so much by turning the oven off that it changed the bread. There are so many fine variables in bread baking.
@@Foodgeek I'm on Safari. Usually cards show up. Can you put it in the "Show More" under the video? Where you have links to perch and recipe, etc. Yours is my go-to channel for sourdough. Your master recipe is the easiest and most reliable recipe I've used. I have been doing boules in my Dutch oven, recently started baking batards on a baking stone with a roasting pan inverted over it. Bingo!!
What is your thought about the concept that adding steam actually cools the baking sheet or stone since the temp of steam is lower than the preheated stone temperature?
Putting dough from fridge (say 5C) onto steel/stone, will cool it more than anything else. If anything that immediate steam would keep temp from dropping too much. I don't believe it's any of that. Steam is to keep crust moist and not set too fast. Same as adding dough from fridge gives more time. So, with oven off, you stop adding heat, and thus extend the rise period further.
I will have to try the oven off method this weekend! I this is the first video of your I have seen, nicely done straight forward and concise I like the four way comparison at the end too 👍
I got great oven spring this time by scoring the dough with my lame held more horizontal as I'm scoring. I will try the oven off method as well. I wonder if starting at a higher temp, say 500 F before turning the oven off would result in higher spring. I love your experiments, Sune!
Hi Mike, I tested this theory today. We shape 200 loafs at a time with a quite accurate precision. We did this for 4 loafs. We tried with even higher temp. Results: Too High temperature and the crust would set too fast, if the steam evaporered too early. 250degrees celcius had the best result with the best oven spring on our home oven :-) 280 was too high and 220 was a little too low. Some people also do the ‘5 minute rule’ Bake for 5min and then turn off oven. This is very helpful if you have a wet dough or if dough is a little or much overfermented. Then you want a faster crust :-) Hope this helps!
@@SimpleSourdough For those of us who bake in a preheated dutch oven maybe the same result might be achieved if the dutch oven was not preheated and not turning down the oven temperature. I tried your method last night and my oven spring was disappointing , not sure why it did not work but I will keep trying.
Amazing sharing! Excellent job my dear friend ! Can't wait to watch your next upload! I love the steam normal way better, the bakery looks very tempting and the color is so beautiful!
I love your channel, and have watched MANY of your videos. Thank you kindly for the wonderful content! I think a lot of the issues people have with bread and a lot of the methods people use are to compensate for irregular heating. I'd be interested to see what the result would be if you have a large thermal mass in the oven below the bread to help diffuse the heat. So what I'm suggesting is that you have a rack on the bottom, just above the heating elements, with the steel plate you used, then on the rack above that (with a small air gap) you put the challenger pan (or another steel plate or pizza stone) then proceed as normal. I've seen a bunch of people mention that you should throw some ice in with the loaf in the challenger pan also to get some long-lived steam action. I'm interested to see how that stacks up against your towel with boiling water. Is there such thing as too much steam? Where's the limit? The issue with electric ovens is that they go through huge ranges when cooking where the elements get super hot for a bit, then shut down. That cycling can have enormous effects on the product, and providing a barrier with some thermal mass between the bread and the elements is great, but having a second barrier might help even more! I'm curious to see how the convection setting would affect it.
In hindsight, this makes sense to me. You turn the oven off so there's no additional heat and fan. This in turn would allow the bread to rise but the crust won't harden as quickly, allowing more oven spring to happen. And of course, the steam moistens the outside to help with the oven spring too. From my personal experience, I found that using the steam/spritz/water-in-pan method only work to a certain degree for steaming; it doesn't work as well as a commercial combi oven with a proper steam function. Fortunately, the Dutch oven steams well because the tight seal traps the steam that's evaporating from the bread (the dough has a lot of moisture after all). I've never tried steam heat-off method before so I'm gonna try it next time I make sourdough at home!
I’ve often spritzed the dough after loading in the oven on a pizza stone to increase humidity. It seems to help. But I just ordered a combo cooker/Dutch oven, and am scared to spray the cast iron. I could spray the dough on the peel, but would that hinder the dough sliding off easily? I might need semolina or corn meal instead of rice flour. 🤷🏼♂️I’ll find out in a week or so when it comes in.
Hi Sune, really appreciate all the time, energy and hard work you put into your videos to keep us educated and informed. Perhaps I missed it but I watched the video 3 times but couldn't find out the temperature you used to preheat the oven initially. And after you turned the oven off during the first bake, then at what temperature did you use for the second bake? Would you mind sharing those details...preheat temp, and second bake temp? Also I think you had the oven off for 25 minutes and on for 20 minutes, is that right? Again, thank you for all you do! Really appreciate you. 👍🏆👏❤️
Interesting method. It makes sense that reducing the heat would help with the initial oven spring. That seems to be the idea with baking in a cold dutch oven or clay baker placed into a pre-heated oven.
My thoughts immediately spring to traditional baking in wood fired ovens. As soon as the items being cooked/baked are loaded, the oven temperature drops and continues to lower. I realise there are some exceptions to my statement as people may refuel the oven and there are some old wood fired ovens that allow for continues fuel. It would also depend on the thermal properties of each real mass etc. A few thousand years of humans baking in wood fired ovens says oven spring can happen if you turn off a modern oven. I imagine there is are important relationship between total temperature/rate of change of temperature and hydration of the loafs being baked.
That was great! I'm going to try try turning my oven off for the first part of the bake now. I've learned to turn my temp down, about 465 degrees F when I bake or my bottom burns. Don't have fan option on oven but may try the steam method too! Thanks again for doing and sharing all your experiments and experience with us, Sune! 😃 Bless you.
I had the same issue with the bottom burning, until I was given a tip to put a baking sheet on the lower rack while cooking in the Dutch oven. No more burnt bottom!
Hi Sune! It is a simple physics. Direct heat (from the top heater of any electric oven) causes a higher surface Temperature on the top of the bread loaves which results in a faster baking of the bread crust and thus in a limited growth of a crumb. The open crumb one can get by avoiding the direct heat (lid of Dutch oven or even by a putting a sheet of backing paper on top of the bread loave while baking. Btw. great oven spring gets one also in a wood fired oven where the dome (a heating element) is far away from the bread surface and the baking temperature drops slowly naturally down.
Per Hendrik at The Bread Code, "Ideal temperature in the home oven as far as I can tell is around 230°C (445°F)." I tend to bake at 475 for 20 min's, then 450 for 30 min's in my home oven. Maybe I should start lower and finish the bake at a higher temp. Not sure if this would help oven spring.
Hi Daniel. I tried that, but found that starting at a higher temp with as much moisture as I can get in my dutch oven made for the best oven spring. Using an ice cube or spaying water into the dutch oven is the best way to bump up the spring because it keeps the dough surface gelatinized longer.
So interesting. I’m baking two loaves in the morning. Usually I bake the two loaves at the same time in Dutch ovens. I will bake them separately tomorrow, one with the oven off and see what happens. Thank you for the demonstrations.
Buy the t-shirt: fdgk.net/buy-science-doesnt-care-tshirt :D
Hey Sonny love this episode. Bought the shirt. Now I am looking for your hat because I love that trademark on the front for lack of a better term. If you have a minute I'd appreciate any info. Thanks, love you man.
It's from the channel I talk about. Simple sourdough, but it looks like their shop is closed temporarily 😊
simpelsurdej.dk/
Thanks Sune. Sorry, autocorrect took over. Love the food you make.
@@Foodgeek Sune this was a very big eye opener the method that I wanted to know more about the oven need to come to temperature you need to do more videos why not make a bread that needs alot of Hydration with wheat and grains bye 👋 from 🇨🇦 #YSW
Good one is try put bread in cold oven turn on at normal temp see if it heating as it bakes what does to bread vs normal heated way!
Rarely comment on youtube. But your turning off the oven approach really changed my sourdough baking game after baking for 2 years. Thank you so much.
Dude! I didn't realize you were only proofing to 25% before putting the dough in the fridge. I just tried that along with this oven off method and I got amazingly tall oven spring. I'm gonna keeping playing with these two techniques. Thank you!
?
I though the shaping was out of the fridge. he didnt specify how long he is shaping it but I guess in fridge it would take whole night the fermentation.
@@marcygrote3800I find amazing these people that just put a question mark under a comment, expecting people to decipher what kind of question they're asking on their own head.
@@fabiors10it's like we watched two different videos.
You just helped me with your comment. I am making a King Arthur Whole Wheat high hydration sourdough bread, and when I prepared it last time, I was confused by their rising schedule. Because of this, I kept it on the counter longer doing stretch and folds, and it did not rise well when baking it. It resembled a UFO. Now I understand because of your comment, so thank you! Along with your help and turning the oven off, maybe I will have better luck.
Because you made two with the oven off, I'm thinking there's something to it. I'm going to try this on breads where huge oven spring won't destroy my design. The other thought I had was that making this video must have taken you hours and hours! Thank you for all the work you put into these experiments.
Nice experiment, Sune. Through trial and error, I've concluded the dutch oven method always works best for me. I've tried turning the oven down to various temps down to as low as 325F after the first 20 minutes, and settled on 425 F as the optimal temp after the first 20 minutes. So for me (YMMV), 500F for the first 20 mins with lid on, 425F for the next 5-10 mins with lid on, 425F for the final 15-20 minutes with lid off. I use parchment paper under my dough in the dutch oven, which eliminates the burnt flour and allows me to drop an ice cube behind the parchment paper on the side to bump up the oven spring. I'm using Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour with good and consistent results. My starter is 1/2 bread flour and 1/2 dark rye. I continue to love your experiment and technique videos.
I'd like to see an experiment where you test temperature and moisture as the two key variables, everything else being equal. For example, if you raise the moisture level in the dutch oven by adding an ice cube or heavily spraying the surface with water before putting the lid on, would temperature have an effect on oven spring and crumb? I would expect the higher the temperature, the more moisture you need to add to keep the surface gelatinized enough to allow for expansion.
it certainly seems to be the simplest technique with a great outcome. I’m not sure I want to deal with changing tempers up and down and adding steam for only a little payback.
Thanks for your comments Keith. For the last few bakes I have dropped ice cubes behind the parchment paper too . Great results indeed. I also lower the temp for the last half bake. This was a great experiment by Sune. I bake two loaves at a time . One goes into a dutch oven, and one on a stone with a repurposed deep cover/hood from an electric frying pan which always gave me the best results. Now both are producing very good consistent results. side note: they say never change your starter feed too quickly. They are right. I radically changed my starter feed to make two starters , one rye and one wheat , and they both stalled. I'm finally getting them back to full strength. Just a caution to anyone who is thinking about changing their starter over.
Doing this turning off oven trick made us pretty anxious the first time 🤣 Just do it and leave the house for 20min
Hi Keith, I use the Dutch oven method as well, but the bottom of my bread burns. I've used cornmeal, and parchment paper. Any tips? Thank you if advance.
gave this a shot with my most recent bake. did one turning the oven off and one leaving it on and I'm totally adopting this method now.
I tried this method this morning (I also let my shaped loaves rise overnight in the fridge) and IT TOTALLY WORKS! Thank you Food Geek! 😀
I tried turning it off, and boom! Best oven spring I’ve ever achieved! Great stuff! Thank you. 🙏
Tried it and I can verify the results from Sune. Works great! Best oven spring I ever had, every time. I find steam left every time I open my dutch oven now, compared to oven on, where I never found steam left. My theory now is, that my oven, even on 'top+bottom' heat (so no fan), still extracts air from the oven, and that way removes my steam from my dutch oven. This is delayed by turning the oven off.
I turn it off for 30 min and turn it on for the last 20. Great additional tip, for those who bake a double batch like me: if you put the second bread in the oven directly after removing the first bread, you can turn off the oven for about 50 minutes and have a half-baked bread! I put that in the fridge in a bag to bake off after I finish the first bread from the batch. Oven spring is not as good as the first bread, but hey: free half-bake energy-wise
Dear Sune -- despite watching hundreds of 'how-to' videos on how to make bread, your approach and presentation allowed me to finally become successful. I specifically cherish your 'experiments', mainly because I hate the 'limits' of recipes, pursuing practicality and taste as the end result. Thus, while I try to follow overall 'baker' percentages, my variables constantly change to reach the preferred taste. Here are some of them: 1. adding apple cider vinegar to water 2. autolyzing overnight (water and wh flour) 3. colder temperature (during the whole process) ~65F -- room temperature or colder like in a traditional village. 4. retardation in the fridge, week or longer. 5. milling own flour from wheat and rye berries. 6. water (mineral, filtered, sprinkled with pineapple juice)
Congratulations on making this process simple and attainable to all new bakers. Thank you for all you do!
Yesterday I tried this method. My dough, one loaf, was 75% hydration flour (650 g), starter 50/50 Hydration (150g), salt (17 g) water (469g). Bulk proof 6.5 hours at 80 F, in Frig (39 F) for 16 hrs. Oven pre heated at 525 F for one hour with dutch oven with cover. I scored dough with my sciccors 5 cuts horizontal. Placed dough with parchment paper in hot pot placed cover on placed in oven closed door and immediately turned oven off for 27 minutes. Opened oven turned pot 180 degrees for even cooking removed lid. Placed oven on 450 F for 40 minutes. Result the best oven spring I ever achieved with this flour which has a rather low protein content for bread flour. Beautiful open crumb, I think I now have a new way to bake bread. Thanks Sune!!!
Thanks, I'm going to give your recipe a try today. I often get poor oven spring and I think the flour is part of the problem. It's good to experiment.
That seems like a long cook time, but it is a larger loaf🤷🏼♂️
@@timtyndall4025 When I weigh my cooked loaf its normally 2 lbs 9 ounces give or take an ounce or two. I like my bread a little on the dark side.
@@alfontana6242 a 2 and 1/2 lb loaf is ridiculously large for me. We have 3 people in my home, we barely go through half of that for 3-4 days, before it’s too stale. But that’s almost 3 times the regular bake time! At least for me.
@@timtyndall4025 We have friends that we usually give them half the loaf.
The one you call "sad" still looks pretty good to me! I'm happy when my loaf turns out sad. I guess I need to up my game.
I have to say that this is one of your most useful experiments with regards to my techniques! Thanks Suni!
🙌🙌
I love the shirt!! I vote for steam oven off 👍
This was fun to watch! In my last loaf after my DO at 500 for 20 mins I took off the lid and knocked down to 450 for the last 25 but I accidently forgot to hit the start so it cooked with oven off. I realized when it wasn't as brown and kicked it up for a few til it browned well. One of the best loaves I ever made!
I didn't try actually turning off my oven as it's a small one that only heats up to 240 degrees, so I'm afraid it would lose too much temperature. But I tried something different also inspired by your experiment and it works super well. First I heat up the oven for an hour with the pizza stone inside, then I change the heat setting for 15 minutes to bottom heat only to let the bread rise and only then I put the heat back to both bottom and top heater. I used to heat on both ends throughout the baking time and I think as the top heater is very close to the bread, the crust was forming too quickly before the sourdough could give the bread a kick. Now it's rising very nicely, though far from your over spring. Thank you again for helping me on my breadmaking journey!
I have a very large dutch oven, and usually place my dough on parchment paper. Before closing the lid, I dump a little less than 1/4 of a cup of ice water into the dutch oven and quickly put on the lid. The dutch oven is so big that the water pretty much turns into steam right away and the lid traps the steam. I get good oven spring....but this new method with the heat "off" is very interesting. I will try it with my next loaf (maybe tonight). I may cook for 3 minutes, than cut off the heat for the next 17 minutes. Your channel is always so interesting! Your are an inspiration to all of us.
Hi Sune, your basic recipe has become my default, with different variations every time I bake. I'm getting great results! Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, from me and from my friends and family who enjoy it. Safra
My pleasure 😊
Love the shirt. I went straight to your merch site hoping you were selling them but no luck. I need to find one of those! Thanks for the wonderful bread experiments. I always learn something.
BOOM! Finally got oven spring after two and half years baking sourdough! Worked perfectly first time, thanks Sune, cheers from New Zealand
What temperature do you use?
@@MaryvelFriesen Hi, all ovens differ, I heat up mine to 260degC at least then slide loaves in and turn off completely for 15mins (with water bath at bottom)then i remove water and I turn back on to190C for 26-27mins for final bake then turn off and crack oven door for another 10mins before removing loaves. All trial and error! Remember, there's no right or wrong way. Hope this helps.
My oven goes into preheat mode when I turn it on, no matter what mode setting I choose. This ends up turning the broiler element on to preheat if I were to turn the oven back on with my loaf in and that ends up scorching the top. I would need two ovens to do the heat off heat back on method. Am I missing something here?
@@marky6969 hey if it's a hassle just ignore the on and off bit and just cook as per 'normal', all ovens are sooo different and variable. The sourdough journey is all about just doing and learning thru trial and error. Keep persevering!
@@marky6969 you can use an inverted tray on top to avoid the grill to burn your crust
Can you compare baking the bread in cold dutch oven & hot dutch oven to start?
I could be wrong but I think he has, and if not Bread Code might have
Some of my best loaves regarding open crumb were discovered by accident when once I was rushing around doing stuff and put my cold fermented loaf in an unheated Dutch oven and threw it in the ‘almost hot enough’ oven because I didn’t have time to wait. I thought “oh well, I’ll see how it turns out”. I was amazed! Now when I want a very open crumb, that’s what I do. In general, house bread isn’t so open crumb because I use a lot of cracked grains and our bread is mostly for sandwiches and French toast. That’s my experience, but I’d love to see the pro do it.
Unfortunately, a lot of my best loaves were accidents and “see how it turns out” that I can’t replicate as well as this one.
@@enigmawyoming5201 mine too, which is the reason for continuing learning.
I've tried this with my last three loaves in a dutch oven and yes the results are excellent. Really upped my game with some beautiful loaves. This defies every baking instruction I've ever seen. Thanks for the video!
I did steam one with oven off, it turns out so well...thank you
That is an interesting one, I wonder what's the reason. If I had to guess I'd say it's the gradually lowering off the temperature, the dough is initially blasted with 250c which heats up the water in it, starting the baking process, and with the oven turned off the temperature is rapidly dropping, the crust is not setting so this maximizes the oven spring... but, it's just a guess.
Thanks for another great video Sune.
Thank you for the tip!!! I tried this for 3 bakes this week, got very nice oven spring, and will continue experimenting to see if I can optimize the process for my oven
I tried this method with my recent sourdough bake, and it turned out amazing! The crumb was soft, with plenty of holes, but not too much. The crust was golden and no burnt parts ( I know it’s ok to have a bit of burnt parts on the crust and bottom, but I don’t like it). I will be using* this method from now on.
I'm with you re: the burnt part.
I just want to say that using the towel and water as you do to create steam was a GAME CHANGER for me! Thank you so much!
Cool!
I always turn the upper resistance off in the first part. I'll try turning it all off.
Tks.
I like that you stay with your standard simple recipe for experiments. That makes it very convenient for us.
Thanks ❤️
Very very interesting. I might have to try this in my Dutch oven ...
I can't wait to try this method. You take the anxiety out of experimentation. Thank you!
A lot of my ‘experiments’ are due to mistakes. Some turn out great, but I can’t replicate them nearly as well as I screwed them up in the first place.
Just leave the house for first 20 minutes or you’ll be tempted to turn it back on 🤣
@@SimpleSourdough - not me. I’m retired. I’m not tempted to do anything until the alarm on my phone makes me think about what the hell is going on. Then I look for reasons to ignore it…. and go back to TH-cam if I can justify it.
Its nothing new really. In Rofco ovens we bake this way and there is an explanation. When the oven is on the top and bottom element are on and this helps in forming the crust earlier even if steamed. So better turn off the oven or lower the heat for 20 minutes and afyer release steam and increase heat til finished baking.
wow ! Since I am still learning I don't yet have the courage to try this method (I am happy when I get a decent bread)! However as I am finding the quantities and also flours that suit me most things are improving. So as soon as I feel my bread game is up to the standard I want I will definitely try this approach. Thanks again for the interesting videos.
I just tried this with a cloche covering the non-heat portion (& I use a countertop oven that only gets to 450°). This was a yeast bread from leftover baguette dough I had in the fridge overnight and which I dumped into an oval banneton to rise a bit before baking. Despite all the differences to your recipe, I was so pleased with the end result! Thanks, Sune! 😍
After watching this TH-cam, I use this cold oven technique for all of my breads: whole wheat, spelt, ciabatta, sourdough. Oven spring is definitely increased in all. Saves oven time, too. Thank you.
I've used the Dutch oven technique but I prefer the Steam Heat Off. I'm a jam person, so it's just right for me. Thanks for the demo and the intro to the steaming tray. I've just always thrown in lots of ice cubes, but your method is more elegant and steady. Thanks.
you experiment, so we don't have to !!! THANK YOU ! LOVE YOUR VIDEOS, so HELPFUL and WELL DONE !!!
Great tip. Tried this and in addition to the nice rise and open crumb, the crust is not so hard and easier to cut while remaining crisp.
It works. I have used it for a while, even when baking I my Challenger.
That was up there with some of the best experiments I've watched. Thanks for your time. It helps us all out a lot on our lifetime journey of mastering sourdough. In my opinion, you can never stop learning. There's always more to know and learn 😁
Oven off baking is also used for eclairs to give them more regular shape and volume so it's not surprising to see it work for bread as well.
Yes, more experiments! I love when I get exceptional oven spring and often do not understand why.
Would actually love to see you do this trick and compare it with cold oven baking (no preheating)! It seems to work well with creating oven spring too. But which is better?
I tried it with open bake. It worked very well. I got better oven spring and more open crumb. Thank you Sune!
Hi Sune, thank you for this interesting video. So how exactly did you bake the bread: what was your preheat temperature? Did you bake your bread longer than usual? Or did you only use the different heating method in the second part (convection)?
Thank you!!! Great video to show different effects on SAME dough. Love it!
Interesting experiment. I like the ear of your control method bread best - and besides the aesthetics, that would come with extra taste and crispiness.
Wow that was amazing. I wouldn't have believed you without the experiment
I use my Dutch oven by default -You may have watched The Bread Codes’ video where he looks into the initial oven temperature and concludes that rather than starting at 250c, 230c gets better spring. It’d be interesting to know what temp your oven drops to in those first 20 mins. Also consider using a cold Dutch oven lid so as not to dry out the top before it can fully rise (though I’m sure that wouldn’t work with the challenger pan)
I would assume the cold lid would retard steam production. 🤷🏼♂️ Only one way to find out.
A bit skeptical, but got my best ovenspring using the cold oven technique today. Added a bottle of warm oatmeal stout in place of water. Thanks for all your helpful tips and the experiments you run!
I was skeptical too, but those are the best experiments :)
Seems like a variation on the "cold bake" theme. Makes sense - the bread has time to expand to maximum capacity before the crust sets hard. I get similar results baking from a cold start in a lidded baking vessel (usually a romertopf). Says something for not baking at high temperatures - until you want to finish the crust. Pork crckling works in a similar manner!
Exactly 👌
@andrew, do you start from cold oven, cold vessel? Or preheated oven, cold vessel?
@@JCPerez-jz5cv I think cold bake here refers dough straight from fridge to hot oven.
To help scoring sometimes I even set dougn in freezer for 15 minutes, then score and straight to oven.
Note: my oven is a fan only oven (worst thing for 1st stage) and I don't have a challenger nor similar (big pirex roaster) big enough. So I need all the tricks, like baking 2 loafs at same time for extra steam.
@@JCPerez-jz5cv cold oven, cold vessel, cold dough I mist a little water before putting on lid. convection 425F nonfan 450 f 50min then take lid off to brown to way you like it. Works like a charm.
I will definitely try this technique. I like the idea of using less energy with the oven off method.
Yes, it works great. So does two-stage baking where you steam and brown at the same time when doing multiple loaves :)
Hi Sune! When you showed all four in one shot, which one was the bottom right?
Oh my goodness! I just tried this (Dutch oven, turn oven off) and I’ve gotten the best spring ever, and I’ve been making sourdough for many years! Thank you so much!
So u still preheat the oven with Dutch oven then turn it off once you place loaf in? If so, preheat at 450?
@@deezstylz11 yes, that’s what I did. I preheated to 500 with Dutch oven, loaded the bread into it, then turned off the oven, waited 20 minutes, removed the lid, and baked for additional time (turned the oven back on to 450). It came out really nice.
While I’m not a huge fan of an open crumb for everyday baking, I’m definitely going to give this a try as an experiment.
There is no doubt that it makes for a very pretty loaf of sourdough!
I use baking paper under my loaf in the DO. I wet the paper and crunch it up before putting the bread on. I also use the oven turn off method. Since I’m doing both methods I’m really happy with my oven spring!
Very interesting. It seems that the steam allows the bread to expand before the hard crust limits it and the hard crust forms in the second bake. I noticed that you steamed for 20 minutes but how long did you bake in the second stage when the oven was turned back on to finish the baking?
Love the guitars behind you. I partake myself in both playing and cooking/baking. Thank you for the video/recipe. ✌
9:26 - Normal steam oven's bread was very flat by default, probably you let it flatten in the desk - that's greatly affect the crumb, so that it will not that open.
Anyway, I prefer that crumb, making these huge "tunnel" is an error for me.
I tried this without expecting success. However, this is my new best practice. I'd never ever turn the oven off. I thought the oven had to be hot hot hot all the time. Thank you for the wonderful tip.
I can't believe it works so well, but it does. I tried it this morning. Thanks for all the great tips.
🙌🙌🙌🔥
At what temperature did you preheat your oven?
@@lafayettesmyre1094 230-250C works fine
@@lafayettesmyre1094 500 f then 450 when turning back on.
Very nice all bread, I never get good oven spring, will try these and see what happens, love that baker, already went on their to look around, thanks for this viseo
Wow. Amazing spring and crumb with the oven off and steamed! Very nice! Interesting that you had some tunneling on the Dutch oven with the oven off. I often get tunneling and I haven’t been able to figure out what’s causing it!
I think it may have been trapped air during shaping 😊
after I moved into a new house with a gas oven, my steam oven technique did not work as the oven would vent the steam if it sensed there was any inside. I used to be able to bake 4 loaves extremely fast with that method so now i'm going to try again with this technique of turning off the oven to prevent it from venting the steam. Great idea!
Thank you for this trick.
Does this work for a claypot aswell?
That i wonder. I use the clay pot and going to try thos method some day.
Very interesting!!… I’m a neophyte but getting good results ( most of the time!)..
I’ll definitely try the next one turning the oven off!
Thank you for experimenting!
Greetings from Orlando Florida
Nice experiment. I wonder if the type of baking vessel might also affect oven spring? I just bought a large glass (borosilicate) casserole dish and baked a couple of loaves with the oven left on during the first baking phase and the spring was noticeably better than I normally get with my Le Creuset dutch oven. Could this be because the glass casserole has a tighter fitting lid and therefore the steam remains inside longer than the Le Creuset? Next, I will try baking loaves in the glass dish with the oven turned off as you did in this video. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks.
Tried it and I was happily surprised as I just stared at the beautiful rise I had gotten. Thank you so much for sharing......
Informative experimentation is fun and extremely valuable.
And it was very interesting to see the final results. Spring was definitely amazing!
That said; I prefer to be able to put stuff on the bread (sandwich style). So though many people may prefer the baking success of superior rise, my choice would be #3 as there is much more usable surface to spread the mayo, mustard, cream cheese, peanut butter, butter, etc... It's also much heartier for eating with a chunk of bread in one hand, soup spoon in the other, occasionally dunking the bread into the soup/stew along the way. In short, I think I enjoy the bread part more than the air-filled holes.
:-)
But again, I always enjoy a fun, interesting experiment.
Imagine it as a bun, though, the crust would keep everything contained and it's portable!
Me too. I do not like big holes in my bread. But I have just started making bread so what do I know?
@@azannah
hehe!
As I noted; my thinking is, holes are air - not actual bread. So it's really hard to spread butter onto the air between the bread areas.
There's plenty of air to breathe everywhere. When I want to eat bread, I would rather have it be mostly the bread part! ;-)
Maybe that's just me. (or maybe you too.)
I have had great success with this method of baking. I make sandwich loaf bread with my starter and my loaves are picture-book beautiful! Thank you.
That is pretty amazing - interesting results. I will be trying this out with my IKEA pyrex dutch oven. Tusind tak!
Having tried this on a few occasions since your video - I get really good results (oven spring) when I turn oven off.
Recommend this method for extra oven spring if using a dutch oven type vessel to bake your bread in. Works even better if you spray water over the bread before putting in the oven.
Tusind tak Sune!
Works well for me! And I am using and loving your one handed stretch and shake and fold. BIG stretch! Thanks Sune
I started sourdough baking in the summer of 2021, so am very much still in thelearning process. Proper bread flour is not readily available here in Norway so I've been experimenting with many alternatives but I recently found som bread flour in a local discount store. I used this trick, turning off the oven for the first 25 minutes, with oven preheated to 230 degrees (cast iron dutch oven). WOW! best results I've had so far, despite my dough being a bit too stiff and, therefor, difficult to work with. Next time I'll increase from 80% to 85% hydration and see if results are even better. Thanks to you and The Bread Code for all you do, the two of you have taught me so much.
I like the experiments you did. I love the results of the oven off on both instances
There was no card to link to your Danish colleagues' website or channel. Cool experiment. It's hard to believe that the retained heat in the cast iron was affected so much by turning the oven off that it changed the bread. There are so many fine variables in bread baking.
👋☺️
I checked it. It's there. Maybe cards are not supported on the platform you are watching? :)
@@Foodgeek I'm on Safari. Usually cards show up. Can you put it in the "Show More" under the video? Where you have links to perch and recipe, etc. Yours is my go-to channel for sourdough. Your master recipe is the easiest and most reliable recipe I've used. I have been doing boules in my Dutch oven, recently started baking batards on a baking stone with a roasting pan inverted over it. Bingo!!
@@laurierappl4549 It's in the description now :)
That's cool! I'm going to try it. Thanks for showing us the experiment! I'm learning a lot form your channel! 😊🍞👍
What is your thought about the concept that adding steam actually cools the baking sheet or stone since the temp of steam is lower than the preheated stone temperature?
Water turns to steam at 100C but the steam gets heated up to the 230 C of the oven very quickly.
Putting dough from fridge (say 5C) onto steel/stone, will cool it more than anything else. If anything that immediate steam would keep temp from dropping too much.
I don't believe it's any of that. Steam is to keep crust moist and not set too fast.
Same as adding dough from fridge gives more time.
So, with oven off, you stop adding heat, and thus extend the rise period further.
I will have to try the oven off method this weekend!
I this is the first video of your I have seen, nicely done straight forward and concise I like the four way comparison at the end too 👍
I got great oven spring this time by scoring the dough with my lame held more horizontal as I'm scoring. I will try the oven off method as well. I wonder if starting at a higher temp, say 500 F before turning the oven off would result in higher spring. I love your experiments, Sune!
Hi Mike, I tested this theory today. We shape 200 loafs at a time with a quite accurate precision. We did this for 4 loafs. We tried with even higher temp.
Results: Too High temperature and the crust would set too fast, if the steam evaporered too early.
250degrees celcius had the best result with the best oven spring on our home oven :-) 280 was too high and 220 was a little too low.
Some people also do the ‘5 minute rule’
Bake for 5min and then turn off oven. This is very helpful if you have a wet dough or if dough is a little or much overfermented. Then you want a faster crust :-)
Hope this helps!
@@SimpleSourdough thank you! That's very helpful. I'll give it a try next time.
Thanks Sune. I had almost given up on sourdough... But have inspired me start my sourdough journey once again.
@@SimpleSourdough For those of us who bake in a preheated dutch oven maybe the same result might be achieved if the dutch oven was not preheated and not turning down the oven temperature. I tried your method last night and my oven spring was disappointing , not sure why it did not work but I will keep trying.
Amazing sharing! Excellent job my dear friend ! Can't wait to watch your next upload! I love the steam normal way better, the bakery looks very tempting and the color is so beautiful!
I love your channel, and have watched MANY of your videos. Thank you kindly for the wonderful content!
I think a lot of the issues people have with bread and a lot of the methods people use are to compensate for irregular heating. I'd be interested to see what the result would be if you have a large thermal mass in the oven below the bread to help diffuse the heat. So what I'm suggesting is that you have a rack on the bottom, just above the heating elements, with the steel plate you used, then on the rack above that (with a small air gap) you put the challenger pan (or another steel plate or pizza stone) then proceed as normal.
I've seen a bunch of people mention that you should throw some ice in with the loaf in the challenger pan also to get some long-lived steam action. I'm interested to see how that stacks up against your towel with boiling water. Is there such thing as too much steam? Where's the limit?
The issue with electric ovens is that they go through huge ranges when cooking where the elements get super hot for a bit, then shut down. That cycling can have enormous effects on the product, and providing a barrier with some thermal mass between the bread and the elements is great, but having a second barrier might help even more! I'm curious to see how the convection setting would affect it.
Thank you for sharing this experiement. I found it informative.
In hindsight, this makes sense to me. You turn the oven off so there's no additional heat and fan. This in turn would allow the bread to rise but the crust won't harden as quickly, allowing more oven spring to happen. And of course, the steam moistens the outside to help with the oven spring too. From my personal experience, I found that using the steam/spritz/water-in-pan method only work to a certain degree for steaming; it doesn't work as well as a commercial combi oven with a proper steam function. Fortunately, the Dutch oven steams well because the tight seal traps the steam that's evaporating from the bread (the dough has a lot of moisture after all). I've never tried steam heat-off method before so I'm gonna try it next time I make sourdough at home!
Spot on👌 It’s a cool method
I’ve often spritzed the dough after loading in the oven on a pizza stone to increase humidity. It seems to help. But I just ordered a combo cooker/Dutch oven, and am scared to spray the cast iron. I could spray the dough on the peel, but would that hinder the dough sliding off easily? I might need semolina or corn meal instead of rice flour. 🤷🏼♂️I’ll find out in a week or so when it comes in.
fascinating!!! I will try the oven-off method
Hi Sune, really appreciate all the time, energy and hard work you put into your videos to keep us educated and informed. Perhaps I missed it but I watched the video 3 times but couldn't find out the temperature you used to preheat the oven initially. And after you turned the oven off during the first bake, then at what temperature did you use for the second bake? Would you mind sharing those details...preheat temp, and second bake temp? Also I think you had the oven off for 25 minutes and on for 20 minutes, is that right? Again, thank you for all you do! Really appreciate you. 👍🏆👏❤️
260C/500F preheat. 230C/450F brown temp. 20 minutes steam. 25 minutes brown.
@@Foodgeek thank you so much for your quick reply. So appreciate you. 👍
@@Foodgeek Unfortunately my oven only goes to 230 fan. Would that be enough for the preheat do you think?
As a bread person like me, all of them just look amazing.
Congrats on the experiment.
Greetings from Brazil.
I'm predicting it helps cold bread rise because it has more time at lower temperature to percolate
proofing 🤷♂️
His has made a very noticeable difference to the rise of my bread. Thanks so much for the tip.
Interesting method. It makes sense that reducing the heat would help with the initial oven spring. That seems to be the idea with baking in a cold dutch oven or clay baker placed into a pre-heated oven.
Its not only that. When the oven is on the 2 elements are on and that makes the crust forming earlier even if steamed.
Very interesting. I give it a try. Thanks for experimenting and showing us how to improve our bread.
My thoughts immediately spring to traditional baking in wood fired ovens. As soon as the items being cooked/baked are loaded, the oven temperature drops and continues to lower. I realise there are some exceptions to my statement as people may refuel the oven and there are some old wood fired ovens that allow for continues fuel. It would also depend on the thermal properties of each real mass etc.
A few thousand years of humans baking in wood fired ovens says oven spring can happen if you turn off a modern oven. I imagine there is are important relationship between total temperature/rate of change of temperature and hydration of the loafs being baked.
Nice correlation :-)
That’s true .
Also a higher hydration will require faster and higher heat to get a good bread with a nice rise. 😊
I have wondered myself for quite a while whether or not it might be a good idea to have the oven off at the start. Now I know. Thanks!
That was great! I'm going to try try turning my oven off for the first part of the bake now. I've learned to turn my temp down, about 465 degrees F when I bake or my bottom burns. Don't have fan option on oven but may try the steam method too! Thanks again for doing and sharing all your experiments and experience with us, Sune! 😃 Bless you.
The ovens without fans are the best! 👏🔥
I had the same issue with the bottom burning, until I was given a tip to put a baking sheet on the lower rack while cooking in the Dutch oven. No more burnt bottom!
What is your initial oven temperature before you put in the dough and turn it off ?
Great experiment! Will try it now, wish me luck, that my oven and pizza steel retrain the heat as good as yours.
Pizza steel 6mm retains heat very well
@@SimpleSourdough can you please recommend a couple of pizza steel suppliers? Thank you
I wish I could add a picture to this comment. I got the best looking loaf of my life this morning using this method. Thank you so much, Sune!
Hi Sune! It is a simple physics.
Direct heat (from the top heater of any electric oven) causes a higher surface Temperature on the top of the bread loaves which results in a faster baking of the bread crust and thus in a limited growth of a crumb. The open crumb one can get by avoiding the direct heat (lid of Dutch oven or even by a putting a sheet of backing paper on top of the bread loave while baking. Btw. great oven spring gets one also in a wood fired oven where the dome (a heating element) is far away from the bread surface and the baking temperature drops slowly naturally down.
Very interesting experiment, will definitely give that oven off steam method a go.
Per Hendrik at The Bread Code, "Ideal temperature in the home oven as far as I can tell is around 230°C (445°F)." I tend to bake at 475 for 20 min's, then 450 for 30 min's in my home oven. Maybe I should start lower and finish the bake at a higher temp. Not sure if this would help oven spring.
Hi Daniel. I tried that, but found that starting at a higher temp with as much moisture as I can get in my dutch oven made for the best oven spring. Using an ice cube or spaying water into the dutch oven is the best way to bump up the spring because it keeps the dough surface gelatinized longer.
Higher hydration usually requires a bit more heat to spring properly :-) but besides that your theory is correct!
Interesting experiment! I saw the video Peter mentioned about off the oven for 20 minutes for great oven spring! This is something to ponder😍
So interesting. I’m baking two loaves in the morning. Usually I bake the two loaves at the same time in Dutch ovens. I will bake them separately tomorrow, one with the oven off and see what happens. Thank you for the demonstrations.
How did it go?:-)