The humbleness, open mindedness and willingness to recognize when someone has knowledge to share is what makes you one of the best shooters out there. FYI - I love my EC Tuner brake.
I use a tuner on a competition .22LR. Each revolution moves the weight 0.025”. My tune windows are only 4 clicks wide, or 0.1” - 16% of a revolution. Outside of that window, the groups deteriorate. Big tuner adjustments can produce random results.
I know this isn’t the start to this discussion nor the end, thanks for posting it. The science would be nice to narrow down to what the tuner effects and how the heck velocity change might be effected when we really are thinking barrel harmonics amplitude or position. Hope to hear more soon. Keep up the good work Erik.
I got a V2 EC Tuner and it definitely changes the groups. For someone to say that they don't work is hard to believe because it's evident through testing. It's really noticeable on good rifles that already shoot small groups, and not so much on a cheap off the shelf rifle.
I called Hornady out on their last video. I told them to give me 200 30-06 Eldx ammo and I would show them that I can make the gun shoot better. I run EC Tuner brakes to set up all my hunting rifles. They are money. I have had really good results with that $10 limb saver but no brake and it’s ugly. Erik you are the man. I love that you’re speaking Hornady’s language and making them think. It’s all about harmonics. It’s like they want to ignore that part of internal ballistics. I’ll be ordering a couple more tuner brakes pretty soon. Thanks for all you do.
I love that our technology has gotten to the point where we can *affordably* start to deeply analyze things like tuners to discover what effects are going on in the very small time slices associated with a round traveling around 3000fps in the confines of a rifle barrel. I could float some hypothesis as to what's going on, as could Erik, Jayden, and others at that level of intelligence and understanding. But I'm much happier to continue investigating and see where the the data leads us!
He,He A bit of Scotch tape and weight in dif places arround the Muzzle to see if it works on your gun and pourpose. Then get a machined tuner. Don't shoot me for my humble opinion🤣🤣I take EriK very seriously but for my shooting, don't need a tunner. Handloading squeezes groups for me. Some guns quite finniky
@@WillyK51 it's more than the end result though. Understanding the physics at work delivers better results across the board for everyone. Mostly. Ok, not that one dude. At all.
Don't take me wrong. But I reached my under 1 MOA goal with my old rifle and it's for hunting. If I take Target shooting(Have a 12 pack on the line if I can outshoot my Snipper School Military In law ) Of course will build me a afordable, but with all the goodies semi lightweight hunting rifle in 7mm(Real hard to choose what cartridge, Leaning to 7RM in a 3.8" Action) to pass on to gradson. Next lifetime might take on 1K shooting. @@TheMrMused
I couldn't see my reply on replies. I 'm a Hunter and got my old 30-06 to shoot under 1 MOA by reloading. Next lifetime will target 1K. Still got a 12 pack on the line, that I can outshoot my Snipper School active Military In law.. Have a Project to build a 7mm RM on a Controlled feed 3.8 " action, semi/light weight affordable build, for grandson. This will get a carbon barrel, goodies and stock. Cartridge is still a ?. 7RM most likelly, but 280 AI one of Erik's Faw for LR. Just save $$ and buy a Savage 110 Ultralight in 28 Nosler and Hot Road. Tough making up your mind with so many options. And been reloading since the 1970's 🤣🤣@@TheMrMused
As long as objectivity is present, this is great to bring about the best group. It's when subjectivity enters the picture (usually out of greed and protection of one's product) that the data is manipulated to bring about a certain conclusion. I don't see that here though. BTW, back in the 80's I bought a Mod 70 with a BOSS (tuner) on it and prooved beyond a shadow of a doubt to myself that tuning harmonics to the barrel and load works very well. That said, so did buying quality ammo to group better. So both of them together took my groups from 1.6 MOA to .9 MOA at 1100 yards with 300WM.
It certainly looks like that something favourable for Eric is going on and knowing from what we’ve seen and heard from Jayden he'll chase this down until he can confirm or otherwise with an explanation . I’m intrigued, as I firmly believe that my rubber donut limb savers work in dampening out the barrel vibrations on my various rifles, as I’ve proved similarly, simply through empirical testing. But hey, there’s always the placebo factor to,consider in that if you think it works for you etc, but the 0 setting when compared to the 10 setting was chalk and cheese and further Eric went on to win with that setting, notwithstanding he may have won anyway
I told Erik that the Hornady Podcast is getting very interesting some time ago that it becoming one of the favorite on TH-cam. Thanks like the likes of Sef and Jaden and Jeff they sure gets you hook on all that information on reloading.
You're getting there Erik. Thanks for engaging in dialog. I wish you two would do a test together then we'd know for sure. What happened to the 10th shot on the first "good group"? Did you fail to shoot it or did you decide it was a flier and remove it? If you removed the worst shot from the bad group it would shrink as well. A few other comments. There's probably too much noise to get reliable data at 1000 yards in a reasonable amount of shots. Testing at closer ranges would reduce both aiming error and wind error. Your second "good setting" group increased by 62% compared to the first. The "bad" group in the second series of 10 is only 42% larger than the good setting. So there's more difference in your first and second good group than the difference between the good and bad. Based on group size alone these groups could be statistically the same but I think we're making steps in the right direction and obviously I'd also choose the smaller average size and go with it. Thanks again for continuing to explore the reality behind tuners.
@@maurygold74 Most guns will have a point of impact shift(typically based on muzzle velocity difference) for at least the first shot and maybe a few when you're starting with a clean barrel. This would make the first group shot larger than expected. Also a lot of people believe that the barrel shoots best after a certain amount of fouling shots on a clean barrel(there's a video on this channel of a bunch of F-CLASS guys firing their guns into the dirt without aiming to foul them). Having a point of impact shift or shooting in a less than ideal barrel condition would make the group larger and therefore impact both precision and accuracy. So not irrelevant at all.
For not just reloaders, also shooters of factory ammunition, this emphasises the point of taking variation out of their setups to try and pinpoint causes for error and shot deviation and realising the difference between a mechanical error/correction and a psychological error/correction. It is a forever learning experience and if you can control something better if you have limited time or funds it is a positive adjustment.
I am a believe the data type person and I will say the data is still yet to be complete. I would love a calibration between you to where you put a few thousand rounds down range and test the hell out of the turners. I am looking forward to seeing what you two come up with. I also watched a pod cast with Brian Litz and his data matched Jayden's but there is still a story that needs to be finished.
I like where Jayden was heading with drag and next steps but in my mind, it might be hard to separate how one influences the other -- i think that if you change the tuner setting, the angle of attack gets changed and of course the drag characteristic because of it gets improved in favor of accuracy so ES/SD is lower as a proof! Given all of this, occam's-razor wise, tuners do work without trying to explain how and why it works!😄 If you guys figure it out, I sure would like to know still but you would have a long road ahead!!! You guys are the best!!!
Great discussion with live fire results! Now we all can see the effect of a tuner. After running numerous barrel vibration simulations and validating with live fire tests, I suggest there may be a logical explanation to the tuner mystery. The barrel vibrations (muzzle movement) are very complex and determined by temperature, barrel profile, length, type of steel and cartridge loading. Added barrel weights of 4-6 Oz can affect the vibrations substantially (good or bad) by changing the exit time of the bullet. In addition, the temperature changes of the barrel cause it to lengthen & shorten, thus affecting exit time also. I suspect that adding a "barrel tuner" really gives the shooter the added weight and an adjustment that can attempt to compensate for the exit time shifts.
Excellent discussion. I use a cheap plastic deresonator and saw my groups shrink from 1 moa to 0.5 moa as I moved it along the barrel in 0.1inch steps. But I still doubt it was the tuner effect but maybe that I was settling down and shooting better. Anyway... It has stayed on the barrel since then... BUT.... I'd like to see a blind trial, where the shooter doesn't know what the tuner setting is or whether the setting has even been changed between strings of shots... Please 🙏🙏😂
I don't question the fact that tuners do change the grouping. I just wonder what the comparison would be with the tuner set to it's "best" setting vs the tuner removed completely. It is just getting it back to the barrels pure performance level?.... or is it actually improving upon it? I have the EC Tuner Brake btw but have not done this test, nor do I have a rifle system (or the skill level) to qualify any results. I would trust either of these guys to do it but one might be biased here. lol. I think 3 neutral shooters using the same system would be good for data.
I heard something in one of the Hornady podcasts that having a muzzle device can influence drag variability so you may have to change the form factor on your 4DOF file depending on your drop characteristics at distance.
Is it true that tunner works if your group is vertical? Let's say the group is horizontal and tuner won't work ? In my understanding this theory has a point but wanna hear experts. Eric you are interesting person. I wanna have yours willing to learn.
I have a Model 70 Winchester 30/06 with the old Boss system muzzle brake - tuner and its amazing what that tuner does to that rifle even with the pencil barrel
First of all, I appreciate the civility of this discussion. We need more of that. Erik, you said at about the (9:40) mark you're "okay with magic as long as it works in my favor . . ." I thought there was a guy who taught you how tuners work. You've referenced him before in a podcast and said that he swore you to secrecy. I say that to say that it's not magic if you know how it works. And, respectfully, not having the real chrono data on these two groups is beginning to sound a little like "the dog ate my homework." It's awfully convenient that someone deleted the strings when the data from the target chronos seems to explain away the trend in the group sizes. It seems like it would have been simple enough to have put up numbers in a format similar to way Litz showed the data in his test. And to be clear, I own one of your v2 tuners and have it on my rimfire setup. I haven't personally been able to quantify an improvement, but there's always the possibility I'm doing something wrong.
@@ErikCortina I know the comment was meant in jest. But at some point, we have to ask if tuners "work" if a person believes they work, aka, the placebo effect. Quinlan and Litz are engineers. They are putting these things through fairly rigorous testing, and they put their data out there for people to see and scrutinize. At some point, it just seems like you'd put your own numerical data out there to counter the narrative.
As you may know, I’m not an engineer. I don’t know how to put together data like they do. I’m a shooter, and I know that turning the tuner gets me smaller groups and more championships. Why should I care if they agree with me?
@@ErikCortina you ran a huge construction business. You're a smart guy. It doesn't even pass the smell test to say that you don't know how to put together data like they do. It's measuring groups (I know you know how to do that) and running the average of a series of groups with a tuner (and at different tuner settings) vs. without a tuner.
Let me tell you this, but I doubt it will be enough. I have been using tuners for over a decade and based on my experience, they work. Because they work, I will keep using them. People saw me use them with success and they wanted them, so I started selling them so they too could shoot smaller groups and better scores. This went on for over a decade. Now I have engineers tell me they don’t work and I’m expected to defend it. Why? I dealt with engineers all the time when I was a contractor, and you would be amazed at how often they were wrong. 😂
I’d love to see a collaboration where you go shoot in Nebraska on their radar with your equipment and ability but with statistically significant group sizes. If the tuner is doing something the data won’t lie.
I won SWN and South Africa Nationals with that tune. It was about 400 rounds that beat the best shooters in the World. Those are significant enough group sizes for me. 😜
I understand but I think it would be cool to see velocities and drag variations collected with dispersion results. If there was a properly performed experiment that showed a tuner would shrink groups I would buy one tomorrow.
When I heard the Hornady podcast I knew their testing was "biased". Not in the usual sense, but they were testing factory ammo and shooting ~1 MOA groups. I think their tests were informative and valid in demonstrating that a tuner will not help much with that kind of setup. But that is a large part of their customer base...people who shoot factory ammo or who make very average handloads. Compare that to Erik's testing where he's fine tuning a gun that already shoots well. He's testing with custom actions, match grade chambers/barrels, and the very best handloads. His results are also informative and valid.
I’d do that test again too. Did you do T0 and T10 in that order both times? If so I’d do T0 and T10 and reverse for second test. You said it yourself the next ten isn’t going to get better. But I’m guessing the barrel vibration could alter muzzle velocity as a bullet would have more trouble traversing a barrel with more vibration???
Great video. Hopefully, good collaboration to come. I have 3 of your tuners and have good results. I wonder what level of precision is needed to get a credible signal above the noise. As you have said, a tuner won’t make a bad load shoot significantly better. It can make a good load change to desired results. Keep up the good work, Erik.
Try it on 0, then 10. Then 10, then 0. Reverse the procedure to see if barrel heat really had any effect. That powder sitting a hot chamber could effect the speed.
As I recall Hornady determined in the podcast that it worked if you believe it worked and that they saw no effect. Therefore, stick a rabbits foot in your pocket or don your lucky cap and believe! I think I’m going with the National Champion ! Good video Erik👍👍
If you're happy with hornady's components, good. I have a higher expectation for quality & consistency. When compared to Berger, lapua, adg, Alpha Munitions, perterson & I'm sure there are others. There isn't even a comparison in quality. I was forced to use hornady brass this year due to shortages. Inconsistent velocity and pressure signs. Also, inconsistent dimensions when sized and primers pocket dimensions were horrible. Finally, I was able to source Peterson brass, and all of my load development problems went away. If I could buy lapua brass for my cartridge, I would. I could go on about my experience with Hornady factory ammo, mostly in regards to advertised box velocities, but if you own a chronograph, you will find they're propagandists in that regard as well. They have fantastic modern cartridge designs, but I'll run other companies' quality components.
@@WJamesBeoch I use a Barrel Tuner so I can dial those groups in pretty damn good. I do reload but currently I’m using factory ammo. I am a varmint hunter not competition shooter so I can get a way with factory ammo.
Great job. Interesting topic, hope youse guys can get together and help the shooting sports figure this out. All verbals matter. Like tuning an arrow. I take my archery understanding and apply it to the gun world. Along with information gathered from people like both of you and F Class John. All information combined is like cheating and speeds up my quest to be the best i can be. Keep the sport alive!!
A good test on the shot marker would be to shoot it at close range, say 100 yards. Send all the rounds though same small hole. If marker shows a ES of single digits or even like a 1-2 ES and your chrono says otherwise, you know its giving velocity errors just because of distance from microphones, In other words, asigning a lower velocity for a projectile falling low on target or more to the left or right of the target from center.
Hard to imagine that velocity at muzzle is varied by the brake, which implies that IF the velocity at target is more consistent then somehow exterior ballistics are changing. Very hard to determine the cause vs the the result of the effect here. Could be that something completely unexpected or un monitored is happening and we aren't even considering.
Great conversation! I follow both your channels and thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I've learned so much from your constant sharing. Erik, I missed the name of the company you're reaching out to (~9:15 minute mark). ..."system" 83? Thank you! And congratulations on another victory!
I am not an expert at all, but what makes sense to me is barrel harmonics. When I shoot different ammo, I get different groupings. This tells me that if one could alter the harmonics on a dial rather than changing ammo as in load development, which is to much effort for a non- dedicated shooter like me, it would be great.
Here's my question. How much did barrel heat have to do with that? When you tested, was setting 0 with the cold barrel and 10after the first 10 shots? Second test did you reverse the numbers starting setting 10 cold and 0 after shooting 10 rnds?? To be a valid test I think you'd need to rule out heat in the barrel affecting the test, but I'm no ballistician. LOL
Question here Eric, did you shoot the 0-setting group first in both of these cases? Could the warmer action be the reason for more consistent es? A few of the 0-setting shots are cold bore, and as you shoot the next set of 10, the system is more consistently warm? Not too warm, just warm enough to give the cartridges a more even ES for the 10-setting?
Ive been following both sides of this. It sounds to me like if you can load rounds as good as EC, shoot as well as EC, have a load developed in a barrel that is within the range of what the specific weight of the tuner can correct then you can tighten up your groups at 1000 yards. Good luck with that 😂
One of these two gentleman has a very strong financial reason to drive certain narrative. There is no doubt tuners change barrel harmonics and trajectory behaviour of the bullet (point of release from the barrel). In vast majority of the cases, instead of driving the improvement, presence of tuner will drive its owner insane trying to get the magical data point, detracting from the shooting, wind, mirage and a number of other factors critical on the day. Point of diminishing returns. People, you need to understand that you are buying the device that you don't know how to use properly to be effective and those that have this knowledge (Erik, Speedy, Mayers) are not happy to share it, despite being super happy to drive positive tuner narrative and take your money. Be smart.
The instructions are on my website. If you follow those instructions, you won’t drive yourself crazy like you did. Idk whose instructions you followed, but there were not mine. 🤷♂️
Not sure what assumptions you have made from my comment but no, I did not drive myself mad at all, I am talking about the real instructions that you are withholding from your customers, like how to really use them in different ambient temperatures and conditions.
🕵️♂️ Eric, Did You Notice That on Tuner Zero Your Shots Tended To Drift Downward? Your E.S. Was Larger and Since Your Velocity Lower, You Would Expect to Have More Bullet Drop and a Wider Pattern! On Tuner Ten, Your E.S. Was Less, So You Would Expect Tighter Groups (Which You Got)! Also, Your Velocity Was Higher, So You Would Expect Less Bullet Drop! Your "Shot Pattern" Was Not As "Patterned", As It Appears That Your Shots Did Drift Upwards (But With Less "Patterend Consistency"), But in a Less Predictable Pattern Trend Than Tuner Zero Had! But, Since I Don't Know If Your Point of Aim Was The Same (I Would Assume It Was At That Distance?) Or If You Let Your Barrel Cool As Long, It Is Hard To Draw Some Conclusions? 🛑 Is Their Any Device Currently Out Their That Records Your Barrel Temperature At the Time You Pull the Trigger? 🤔 If Not, That May Be An "Invention" Worth Developing? 👨🏫 I Am An Engineer and a Hunter, But Not a Competition Shooter (Yet)! 😜
Is there any way to measure the barrel's harmonic response to the change in muzzle balance before using a tuner. If so, can the the same be said for collecting the data through the the entire range of tuner adjustment?
When pride and ego can get pushed aside for a common goal. I believe great things can happen. Barrel harmonics is a extremely interesting subject. And I for one think there is much to be discovered. Gentlemen, may your s.d. be minimal, and the data that results from testing be clear cut, and concise.
My gut tells me that the tuner is allowing the bullet to leave the barrel with less ‘rotational instability’… I certainly don’t know all the terms, but the second groups seemed to behave in a true random pattern and the first groups seemed to be influenced by the launch system. Like the bullet tips are rotating around the ‘theoretical line of travel’ they are traveling on. Excellent discussion gentleman. Hats off.
I dont know why there is even a debate. Tuners work, there is proof. I have personal experience with the B.O.S.S. system on a browning abolt in 300 win mag. I was able to cut my groups from 5/8" to 3/8". It was one of my best shooting rifles.
verry interesting discussion, should be longer on both sides. Is the adjusting of the tuner relatet to a special distance or once adjusted its good for all distances? ( sorry for my english 🙂)
One issue I noticed with the Hornady (et.al.) testing is that they didn’t define the rifles they used and how precise the rifles are. They also didn’t define whether they were using hand loads or how rigid each load was defined, what bullet, what case, etc. It seems if a tuner does concretely work, it may only be observable within rifle configurations that have such a tight tolerance that they *are able* to be tuned. Off the shelf rifles with off the shelf barrels and not a Brux/Hart/Bartlein/etc may not see that level of tuning potential. I’d like them to take YOUR equipment and perform more rigid tests.
That's right dude,but rather see a commercial rifle but with the almost reloads is more like it for individual's rifle or a custom one of your's choice.
The first 10 shots at sitting 10 was 4 inches. The second 10 shots at tuner setting 10 was 6.xx inches. Setting 0 was 8”. That’s in the realm of dispersion
Imo, the only way to make this testing valid is for someone else to set the tuner setting and you don't know it. That's how clinical drug trials must be done: 'double blinded', even the RESEARCHERS knowing which group is the intervention and which is the placebo can influence the results, let alone the trial participants. Your expectations with regard to the tuner setting's performance could easily and significantly affect the result.
Great discussion. I would say that turners do work, the prove is in the pudding, by looking at the two targets. PS. # hey wrong ammo. lol😂 I seen you on fellow TH-camr Back fire, which was informative and fun to watch.
Do it on 10 different guns shooting 10 different calibers in 5 different environments show the test data for all data points at a set interval that is repeatable and show that not only 1 is repeatably good but that the ones in between are consistently the same. Then take the tuner off put it back on and do it again. Then you need to do the same thing but just do weight. Start bare and then increase weight incrementally across all of those same data points. If you can do all of that and show consistent data that is repeatable in all conditions in all Calibers in all rifles thin, thick, long and short etc then you will have something that is believable and undeniable. I’m not saying it doesn’t work or can’t work. I’m just saying that’s what it would take to actually show you have something. I have a feeling that if you do that you may learn a lot. I think you will learn that tuners do ‘tune’ the barrel in the sense that things change. I do think you will see significant differences in barrel profile and length, and the ratio between those things and tuner weight. I think you will find in certain situations you can very much shrink a group down. But I also think that with most tuners that setting will change every time you take it on and off(better tuners maybe not). And that once you change that environment that tuner setting may not longer work. So yes it tuners work because it makes changes but I don’t think you will find a setting for that tuner and that barrel that will always work. And if you can’t do that it is useless. You’ll walk away with a very caveated conclusion that if you are shooting this style barrel with this tuner weight with this range of calibers then it’ll work but once you have it set you can’t remove it or change your environment without completely retuning. If you can conclude that, which is a big if, it truly is only useful to the benchrest and F Class people and only if they have lots of extra resources and time on their hands to constantly be making changes. I’d also bet that if there is a difference, at the end of the day it won’t be that big and it won’t be worth all of the trouble. Extremely inefficient. Would loved to see the test done and to be proved wrong.
🤔 There May Also Be More Than 1 Approach to "Controlling Barrel Harmonics" and to Provide For More Consistent Shots! I Have Really Never Looked Into It or Given it Any Thought! If The Barrel Was Coated With a Harder Substance (Like Graphene) on the Inside and a Softer Coating on the Outside, Wouldn't That "Normalize" or "Stabilize/Dampen" the "Vibratory Motion", From Shot to Shot? 🤷♂️
The more information the better. Narrows the diagnosis when an issue comes up. Excellent stuff. What a shame that the muzzle velocity information is gone! 😢 Tuner setting affects ES... what the...? Hope Jayden runs his test again with new found knowledge from Erik.😅
The issue is Hornady tests at a much shorter range. Could be some positive compensation happening. Essentially you load for "best load" and NOT positive compensaion. Now your tuner is making positive compensation happen because of the barrel pointing vector on exit. - I still don't know how you have less followers on Instagram than I do, lol.
@@ErikCortina Yep, good ol facebook ruining everything. Most of my followers are from my old business Tactical Keychains. I kept my IG account. Getting back into it again tho. Got the Brother Speedio back up and running this week.
Please stop using ES and group size, as these are statistically very poor parameters. Chrono SD and the radius ( mean and SD) are more powerful and straightforward to show statistical differences with fewer shots that typically thought.
Good stuff. Why they wouldn’t have you do that same test over their big radar beats me. Then you would have the next puzzle piece. Of course, there would go all of this debate content and views. If I sold factory ammo, I would sure be looking under every rock for a tool that made my product work better.
I wonder if somebody could film in super slomo with high fps camera the barrel from 12 and 3 o'clock with different tuner settings and record the vibrations?
I would not know, I never go to the parties ;) anyways, exactly as the folks from AB and Hornady have said, you can run a test that is statistically significant and prove that with 30+ shot groups you can get a variance at different tuner settings, that are “repeatable” test to test. Easy to do. You are putting screenshots of 10 shot groups in front of a guy from Hornady, that spent literally hours during the Hornady podcast explaining why you should not do that, as they are not statistically significant. Any person with a high school level of mathematics and statistics can design this sort of a test. You are a great shooter, and I enjoy watching your shooting content, yet when you start to “prove” that tuners work (including the famous Speedy gitar riff), it is easy to see you have no idea about statistics and mathematical proofs. AB and Hornady will help you to design an objective test from statistical standpoint. What are you afraid of? You go to this parties while being afraid an objective test will hollow your hoax?
Afraid of? Did you see me have a conversation with both Litz and Jayden? All I did was show them what I have, that’s all. If that doesn’t satisfy you, it’s not my problem, it’s yours. 🤷♂️
I did watch both those podcasts. You had no idea what you are talking about in terms of statistics and mathematics. Both interlocutors were kind enough as not to call your „analysis” naive and incopetent. In this video, the person from Hornady is trying to explain to you, that the shape of this 10 shot group is not representative of statisticaly significant one. It should be round and not vertical. If it is not round, is is either not a large enough sample, or there is smth mechanically wrong with the gun, if the group is so skewed and the sample is large enough (30 shots or more). Again, I respect you as a person and a great shooter. You are one because of your hard work and your talent. And not because of some hoax gizmo at the end of your barrel. Talk to the people at AB and Hornady, design a scientific test and not this hocus pocus kindergarten variety you are trying to sell as „science”. I bet you will not do that, as both AB and Hornady did say they have conducted such tests and tuners don’t work. Prove me wrong :)
@@lekominhes a world champ and prints tons of small groups every practice session, every match, tons of rounds, tons of groups so hes proved it plenty lol
Eric is a great shooter, but I've seen him have a similar conversation with Brian Litz. BTW, Brian cane to the same conclusion as Jaden. I'd like to see Eric participate with either party to do a scientific, statistacially significant sample size study on tuners and settle it once and for all.
@erik - have you tried testing without a tuner(bare muzzle), tuner 0, tuner 10? You’re making a huge assumption that the tuner makes it “better”. What if it’s the tuner making it worse?
First you need to set a real baseline. Shoot 10 ten shot striings at the same tuner setting spaced timewise to prevent nonuniform barrel heating. Then proceeded to shoot different tuner settings. Erik's first 10 was from cold to warn, and the next 10 was from warm to warmer. Not balanced.
@@ErikCortina That is a real problem. I guess you need to reopen your construction talent and cut a roofed trench on the ranch. Start a go fund me and I will kick in $100. Let's see here, that would only be 75 end to end 40' containers. You lay the containers on curved ground so you can compensate for the trajectory curve. Likely you will have to use an aiming point at 500 yards because of the restricted height of the containers.
🤠 Horneday is Using the N > 30 Sample Size "Standard Mathematical Practice", But That Number is "Not Set in Stone" As A "Statistical Absolute Minimum" By Any Means! 😃
Tuners work! Period. Anything that affects the harmonics of a rifle barrel effects the shot. If you lay your finger on the barrel it will affect the shot, so why would you believe that a barrel tuner wouldn't work. You can wrap tape very tightly around the end of your barrel and even that will affect the shot. The first barrel tuner I ever used was the old Browning BOSS system and it worked great. I could visibly see the difference it made in the group sizes and position. There were lots of people hating on it because the instructions were complete crap and the starting settings were usually wrong so you had to PUT IN THE WORK to get it dialed in and most shooters just didn't want to shoot 50 shots to get it figured out. I took 100 rounds of 30-06 to the range. 4 hours later and 100 shots I have a perfectly tuned rifle and a VERY sore shoulder, but I put in the work. I don't just know that tuners work I KNOW they work.
You always talk barrell harmonics are a vertical manisfestation of movement. The barrell is circular so the harmonics are radial in nature (360 degrees). Vertical may be true in a flat sheet of steel where horisontal is greater than thichness. But circular harmonics would radiate in a 360 direction down the length of the barrell.
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Outstanding. I'd rather see a conversation than an argument any day.
Kudos for working together for the betterment of our sport even when we may disagree.
Thank you
A humble discussion on both men’s parts. Well done!
Man, I appreciate these two guys!!! I can’t wait to see more data from these guys!!!
No doubt!
The humbleness, open mindedness and willingness to recognize when someone has knowledge to share is what makes you one of the best shooters out there. FYI - I love my EC Tuner brake.
Thank you
More of this! I'd love to see more in depth testing and then Eric Cortina on the resulting Hornady podcast
I use a tuner on a competition .22LR. Each revolution moves the weight 0.025”. My tune windows are only 4 clicks wide, or 0.1” - 16% of a revolution. Outside of that window, the groups deteriorate. Big tuner adjustments can produce random results.
I know this isn’t the start to this discussion nor the end, thanks for posting it. The science would be nice to narrow down to what the tuner effects and how the heck velocity change might be effected when we really are thinking barrel harmonics amplitude or position. Hope to hear more soon. Keep up the good work Erik.
I got a V2 EC Tuner and it definitely changes the groups. For someone to say that they don't work is hard to believe because it's evident through testing. It's really noticeable on good rifles that already shoot small groups, and not so much on a cheap off the shelf rifle.
I called Hornady out on their last video. I told them to give me 200 30-06 Eldx ammo and I would show them that I can make the gun shoot better. I run EC Tuner brakes to set up all my hunting rifles. They are money. I have had really good results with that $10 limb saver but no brake and it’s ugly. Erik you are the man. I love that you’re speaking Hornady’s language and making them think. It’s all about harmonics. It’s like they want to ignore that part of internal ballistics. I’ll be ordering a couple more tuner brakes pretty soon. Thanks for all you do.
Try to be less of an idiot
I love that our technology has gotten to the point where we can *affordably* start to deeply analyze things like tuners to discover what effects are going on in the very small time slices associated with a round traveling around 3000fps in the confines of a rifle barrel.
I could float some hypothesis as to what's going on, as could Erik, Jayden, and others at that level of intelligence and understanding. But I'm much happier to continue investigating and see where the the data leads us!
Same here. Thanks.
He,He A bit of Scotch tape and weight in dif places arround the Muzzle to see if it works on your gun and pourpose. Then get a machined tuner. Don't shoot me for my humble opinion🤣🤣I take EriK very seriously but for my shooting, don't need a tunner. Handloading squeezes groups for me. Some guns quite finniky
@@WillyK51 it's more than the end result though. Understanding the physics at work delivers better results across the board for everyone. Mostly. Ok, not that one dude. At all.
Don't take me wrong. But I reached my under 1 MOA goal with my old rifle and it's for hunting. If I take Target shooting(Have a 12 pack on the line if I can outshoot my Snipper School Military In law ) Of course will build me a afordable, but with all the goodies semi lightweight hunting rifle in 7mm(Real hard to choose what cartridge, Leaning to 7RM in a 3.8" Action) to pass on to gradson. Next lifetime might take on 1K shooting. @@TheMrMused
I couldn't see my reply on replies. I 'm a Hunter and got my old 30-06 to shoot under 1 MOA by reloading. Next lifetime will target 1K. Still got a 12 pack on the line, that I can outshoot my Snipper School active Military In law.. Have a Project to build a 7mm RM on a Controlled feed 3.8 " action, semi/light weight affordable build, for grandson. This will get a carbon barrel, goodies and stock. Cartridge is still a ?. 7RM most likelly, but 280 AI one of Erik's Faw for LR. Just save $$ and buy a Savage 110 Ultralight in 28 Nosler and Hot Road. Tough making up your mind with so many options. And been reloading since the 1970's 🤣🤣@@TheMrMused
As long as objectivity is present, this is great to bring about the best group. It's when subjectivity enters the picture (usually out of greed and protection of one's product) that the data is manipulated to bring about a certain conclusion. I don't see that here though.
BTW, back in the 80's I bought a Mod 70 with a BOSS (tuner) on it and prooved beyond a shadow of a doubt to myself that tuning harmonics to the barrel and load works very well. That said, so did buying quality ammo to group better. So both of them together took my groups from 1.6 MOA to .9 MOA at 1100 yards with 300WM.
🤜🏼 Cool discussion.
I vote for Eric go to Hornady range with their radar and make podcast about it?
It certainly looks like that something favourable for Eric is going on
and knowing from what we’ve seen and heard from Jayden he'll chase this down until he can confirm or otherwise with an explanation . I’m intrigued, as I firmly believe that my rubber donut limb savers work in dampening out the barrel vibrations on my various rifles, as I’ve proved similarly, simply through empirical testing. But hey, there’s always the placebo factor to,consider in that if you think it works for you etc, but the 0 setting when compared to the 10 setting was chalk and cheese and further Eric went on to win with that setting, notwithstanding he may have won anyway
Could never win with setting 10. Group was too big.
Love this! Its funny how we shooters fight over tuner vs non-tuner; but ya'll can still get along and have a fruitful conversation.
I wish this conversation was full length. It was great seeing the conversation.
Hopefully Hornady will invite you to sit in on any future tuner testing.
I told Erik that the Hornady Podcast is getting very interesting some time ago that it becoming one of the favorite on TH-cam.
Thanks like the likes of Sef and Jaden and Jeff they sure gets you hook on all that information on reloading.
You're getting there Erik. Thanks for engaging in dialog. I wish you two would do a test together then we'd know for sure. What happened to the 10th shot on the first "good group"? Did you fail to shoot it or did you decide it was a flier and remove it? If you removed the worst shot from the bad group it would shrink as well. A few other comments. There's probably too much noise to get reliable data at 1000 yards in a reasonable amount of shots. Testing at closer ranges would reduce both aiming error and wind error. Your second "good setting" group increased by 62% compared to the first. The "bad" group in the second series of 10 is only 42% larger than the good setting. So there's more difference in your first and second good group than the difference between the good and bad. Based on group size alone these groups could be statistically the same but I think we're making steps in the right direction and obviously I'd also choose the smaller average size and go with it. Thanks again for continuing to explore the reality behind tuners.
I was one shot short because I used it as a slighter to get groups centered up.
@@ErikCortina Makes sense. Did you take any foulers or warm up shots before shooting the first group?
@@MMBRMthat would irrelevant. It was precision sake not accuracy
@@maurygold74 Most guns will have a point of impact shift(typically based on muzzle velocity difference) for at least the first shot and maybe a few when you're starting with a clean barrel. This would make the first group shot larger than expected. Also a lot of people believe that the barrel shoots best after a certain amount of fouling shots on a clean barrel(there's a video on this channel of a bunch of F-CLASS guys firing their guns into the dirt without aiming to foul them). Having a point of impact shift or shooting in a less than ideal barrel condition would make the group larger and therefore impact both precision and accuracy. So not irrelevant at all.
For not just reloaders, also shooters of factory ammunition, this emphasises the point of taking variation out of their setups to try and pinpoint causes for error and shot deviation and realising the difference between a mechanical error/correction and a psychological error/correction. It is a forever learning experience and if you can control something better if you have limited time or funds it is a positive adjustment.
I am a believe the data type person and I will say the data is still yet to be complete. I would love a calibration between you to where you put a few thousand rounds down range and test the hell out of the turners. I am looking forward to seeing what you two come up with. I also watched a pod cast with Brian Litz and his data matched Jayden's but there is still a story that needs to be finished.
I like where Jayden was heading with drag and next steps but in my mind, it might be hard to separate how one influences the other -- i think that if you change the tuner setting, the angle of attack gets changed and of course the drag characteristic because of it gets improved in favor of accuracy so ES/SD is lower as a proof! Given all of this, occam's-razor wise, tuners do work without trying to explain how and why it works!😄 If you guys figure it out, I sure would like to know still but you would have a long road ahead!!! You guys are the best!!!
Thank you
I have really gotten into this stuff, and I attribute my interest to these two guys and Gavin G. These guys are a treasure ‼️💯😎🤙
Great discussion with live fire results! Now we all can see the effect of a tuner. After running numerous barrel vibration simulations and validating with live fire tests, I suggest there may be a logical explanation to the tuner mystery. The barrel vibrations (muzzle movement) are very complex and determined by temperature, barrel profile, length, type of steel and cartridge loading. Added barrel weights of 4-6 Oz can affect the vibrations substantially (good or bad) by changing the exit time of the bullet. In addition, the temperature changes of the barrel cause it to lengthen & shorten, thus affecting exit time also. I suspect that adding a "barrel tuner" really gives the shooter the added weight and an adjustment that can attempt to compensate for the exit time shifts.
Excellent discussion. I use a cheap plastic deresonator and saw my groups shrink from 1 moa to 0.5 moa as I moved it along the barrel in 0.1inch steps. But I still doubt it was the tuner effect but maybe that I was settling down and shooting better. Anyway... It has stayed on the barrel since then...
BUT.... I'd like to see a blind trial, where the shooter doesn't know what the tuner setting is or whether the setting has even been changed between strings of shots... Please 🙏🙏😂
I don't question the fact that tuners do change the grouping. I just wonder what the comparison would be with the tuner set to it's "best" setting vs the tuner removed completely. It is just getting it back to the barrels pure performance level?.... or is it actually improving upon it? I have the EC Tuner Brake btw but have not done this test, nor do I have a rifle system (or the skill level) to qualify any results. I would trust either of these guys to do it but one might be biased here. lol. I think 3 neutral shooters using the same system would be good for data.
I heard something in one of the Hornady podcasts that having a muzzle device can influence drag variability so you may have to change the form factor on your 4DOF file depending on your drop characteristics at distance.
Is it true that tunner works if your group is vertical? Let's say the group is horizontal and tuner won't work ? In my understanding this theory has a point but wanna hear experts. Eric you are interesting person. I wanna have yours willing to learn.
Much can be learned from these two
I have a Model 70 Winchester 30/06 with the old Boss system muzzle brake - tuner and its amazing what that tuner does to that rifle even with the pencil barrel
Will you guys top talking and start doing more testing! Inquiring minds want to know.
First of all, I appreciate the civility of this discussion. We need more of that. Erik, you said at about the (9:40) mark you're "okay with magic as long as it works in my favor . . ." I thought there was a guy who taught you how tuners work. You've referenced him before in a podcast and said that he swore you to secrecy. I say that to say that it's not magic if you know how it works. And, respectfully, not having the real chrono data on these two groups is beginning to sound a little like "the dog ate my homework." It's awfully convenient that someone deleted the strings when the data from the target chronos seems to explain away the trend in the group sizes. It seems like it would have been simple enough to have put up numbers in a format similar to way Litz showed the data in his test. And to be clear, I own one of your v2 tuners and have it on my rimfire setup. I haven't personally been able to quantify an improvement, but there's always the possibility I'm doing something wrong.
You don’t know what a joke sounds like, do you? 😜
@@ErikCortina I know the comment was meant in jest. But at some point, we have to ask if tuners "work" if a person believes they work, aka, the placebo effect.
Quinlan and Litz are engineers. They are putting these things through fairly rigorous testing, and they put their data out there for people to see and scrutinize. At some point, it just seems like you'd put your own numerical data out there to counter the narrative.
As you may know, I’m not an engineer. I don’t know how to put together data like they do. I’m a shooter, and I know that turning the tuner gets me smaller groups and more championships. Why should I care if they agree with me?
@@ErikCortina you ran a huge construction business. You're a smart guy. It doesn't even pass the smell test to say that you don't know how to put together data like they do. It's measuring groups (I know you know how to do that) and running the average of a series of groups with a tuner (and at different tuner settings) vs. without a tuner.
Let me tell you this, but I doubt it will be enough. I have been using tuners for over a decade and based on my experience, they work. Because they work, I will keep using them. People saw me use them with success and they wanted them, so I started selling them so they too could shoot smaller groups and better scores. This went on for over a decade. Now I have engineers tell me they don’t work and I’m expected to defend it. Why?
I dealt with engineers all the time when I was a contractor, and you would be amazed at how often they were wrong. 😂
I’d love to see a collaboration where you go shoot in Nebraska on their radar with your equipment and ability but with statistically significant group sizes. If the tuner is doing something the data won’t lie.
I won SWN and South Africa Nationals with that tune. It was about 400 rounds that beat the best shooters in the World. Those are significant enough group sizes for me. 😜
Winning a match does not mean tuners actually work. I’m sure lots of dudes that lost blamed it on their tuners. Lol
I understand but I think it would be cool to see velocities and drag variations collected with dispersion results. If there was a properly performed experiment that showed a tuner would shrink groups I would buy one tomorrow.
@ErikCortina what works for you doesn't means that it will work for others?
That's why you test .
Thank you gentlemen
When I heard the Hornady podcast I knew their testing was "biased". Not in the usual sense, but they were testing factory ammo and shooting ~1 MOA groups. I think their tests were informative and valid in demonstrating that a tuner will not help much with that kind of setup. But that is a large part of their customer base...people who shoot factory ammo or who make very average handloads. Compare that to Erik's testing where he's fine tuning a gun that already shoots well. He's testing with custom actions, match grade chambers/barrels, and the very best handloads. His results are also informative and valid.
I’d do that test again too. Did you do T0 and T10 in that order both times? If so I’d do T0 and T10 and reverse for second test. You said it yourself the next ten isn’t going to get better. But I’m guessing the barrel vibration could alter muzzle velocity as a bullet would have more trouble traversing a barrel with more vibration???
By the shot count on the shot marker the second test was done in reverse.
I said the next 10 aren’t going to get better, I was talking about group size of 20 vs 10, not tuner setting.
Great video. Hopefully, good collaboration to come. I have 3 of your tuners and have good results. I wonder what level of precision is needed to get a credible signal above the noise. As you have said, a tuner won’t make a bad load shoot significantly better. It can make a good load change to desired results. Keep up the good work, Erik.
Great job working together. 🙏👏 👏
Thank you 🙌
I think the best science comes from the best minds, despite differing ideas, working to solve the same issue.
Been testing tuning with my .22 it’s crazy how the groups will shrink by half!
What’s missing here is a control group without the tuner installed. The vertical stringing could actually be caused by the tuner.
Yes, the tuner caused it, which is an indication that tuners can affect barrel harmonics.
Try it on 0, then 10. Then 10, then 0. Reverse the procedure to see if barrel heat really had any effect. That powder sitting a hot chamber could effect the speed.
As I recall Hornady determined in the podcast that it worked if you believe it worked and that they saw no effect. Therefore, stick a rabbits foot in your pocket or don your lucky cap and believe! I think I’m going with the National Champion ! Good video Erik👍👍
If someone's using hornady cartridges & bullets in their system, they are relying on luck. 😂
@@WJamesBeochBullshit your clueless,I shoot Hornady factory ammo with excellent results so don’t bash the company
If you're happy with hornady's components, good. I have a higher expectation for quality & consistency. When compared to Berger, lapua, adg, Alpha Munitions, perterson & I'm sure there are others. There isn't even a comparison in quality. I was forced to use hornady brass this year due to shortages. Inconsistent velocity and pressure signs. Also, inconsistent dimensions when sized and primers pocket dimensions were horrible. Finally, I was able to source Peterson brass, and all of my load development problems went away. If I could buy lapua brass for my cartridge, I would. I could go on about my experience with Hornady factory ammo, mostly in regards to advertised box velocities, but if you own a chronograph, you will find they're propagandists in that regard as well. They have fantastic modern cartridge designs, but I'll run other companies' quality components.
@@WJamesBeoch I use a Barrel Tuner so I can dial those groups in pretty damn good. I do reload but currently I’m using factory ammo. I am a varmint hunter not competition shooter so I can get a way with factory ammo.
Great job. Interesting topic, hope youse guys can get together and help the shooting sports figure this out. All verbals matter. Like tuning an arrow. I take my archery understanding and apply it to the gun world. Along with information gathered from people like both of you and F Class John. All information combined is like cheating and speeds up my quest to be the best i can be.
Keep the sport alive!!
Great discussion.
A good test on the shot marker would be to shoot it at close range, say 100 yards. Send all the rounds though same small hole. If marker shows a ES of single digits or even like a 1-2 ES and your chrono says otherwise, you know its giving velocity errors just because of distance from microphones, In other words, asigning a lower velocity for a projectile falling low on target or more to the left or right of the target from center.
Hard to imagine that velocity at muzzle is varied by the brake, which implies that IF the velocity at target is more consistent then somehow exterior ballistics are changing.
Very hard to determine the cause vs the the result of the effect here. Could be that something completely unexpected or un monitored is happening and we aren't even considering.
Correlation does not equal causation
That said - if it helps with you mental game then that’s all you need
Great conversation! I follow both your channels and thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I've learned so much from your constant sharing. Erik, I missed the name of the company you're reaching out to (~9:15 minute mark). ..."system" 83?
Thank you!
And congratulations on another victory!
Oehler chronographs
@@ErikCortina Thanks! Right in my back yard.
I am not an expert at all, but what makes sense to me is barrel harmonics. When I shoot different ammo, I get different groupings. This tells me that if one could alter the harmonics on a dial rather than changing ammo as in load development, which is to much effort for a non- dedicated shooter like me, it would be great.
Does tuner reduce yaw variability?
Here's my question.
How much did barrel heat have to do with that?
When you tested, was setting 0 with the cold barrel and 10after the first 10 shots?
Second test did you reverse the numbers starting setting 10 cold and 0 after shooting 10 rnds??
To be a valid test I think you'd need to rule out heat in the barrel affecting the test, but I'm no ballistician. LOL
what a class act...
Question here Eric, did you shoot the 0-setting group first in both of these cases? Could the warmer action be the reason for more consistent es? A few of the 0-setting shots are cold bore, and as you shoot the next set of 10, the system is more consistently warm? Not too warm, just warm enough to give the cartridges a more even ES for the 10-setting?
Ive been following both sides of this. It sounds to me like if you can load rounds as good as EC, shoot as well as EC, have a load developed in a barrel that is within the range of what the specific weight of the tuner can correct then you can tighten up your groups at 1000 yards. Good luck with that 😂
One of these two gentleman has a very strong financial reason to drive certain narrative. There is no doubt tuners change barrel harmonics and trajectory behaviour of the bullet (point of release from the barrel). In vast majority of the cases, instead of driving the improvement, presence of tuner will drive its owner insane trying to get the magical data point, detracting from the shooting, wind, mirage and a number of other factors critical on the day. Point of diminishing returns. People, you need to understand that you are buying the device that you don't know how to use properly to be effective and those that have this knowledge (Erik, Speedy, Mayers) are not happy to share it, despite being super happy to drive positive tuner narrative and take your money. Be smart.
Have you ever used a tuner?
Yes. Have you considered including the real instructions with your tuners?
The instructions are on my website. If you follow those instructions, you won’t drive yourself crazy like you did. Idk whose instructions you followed, but there were not mine. 🤷♂️
Not sure what assumptions you have made from my comment but no, I did not drive myself mad at all, I am talking about the real instructions that you are withholding from your customers, like how to really use them in different ambient temperatures and conditions.
Those are not my instructions, they belong to John Myers. Mine are on my website and available for anyone to use.
🕵️♂️ Eric, Did You Notice That on Tuner Zero Your Shots Tended To Drift Downward? Your E.S. Was Larger and Since Your Velocity Lower, You Would Expect to Have More Bullet Drop and a Wider Pattern! On Tuner Ten, Your E.S. Was Less, So You Would Expect Tighter Groups (Which You Got)! Also, Your Velocity Was Higher, So You Would Expect Less Bullet Drop! Your "Shot Pattern" Was Not As "Patterned", As It Appears That Your Shots Did Drift Upwards (But With Less "Patterend Consistency"), But in a Less Predictable Pattern Trend Than Tuner Zero Had! But, Since I Don't Know If Your Point of Aim Was The Same (I Would Assume It Was At That Distance?) Or If You Let Your Barrel Cool As Long, It Is Hard To Draw Some Conclusions? 🛑 Is Their Any Device Currently Out Their That Records Your Barrel Temperature At the Time You Pull the Trigger? 🤔 If Not, That May Be An "Invention" Worth Developing? 👨🏫 I Am An Engineer and a Hunter, But Not a Competition Shooter (Yet)! 😜
Is there any way to measure the barrel's harmonic response to the change in muzzle balance before using a tuner. If so, can the the same be said for collecting the data through the the entire range of tuner adjustment?
When pride and ego can get pushed aside for a common goal. I believe great things can happen. Barrel harmonics is a extremely interesting subject. And I for one think there is much to be discovered. Gentlemen, may your s.d. be minimal, and the data that results from testing be clear cut, and concise.
Thank you
My gut tells me that the tuner is allowing the bullet to leave the barrel with less ‘rotational instability’… I certainly don’t know all the terms, but the second groups seemed to behave in a true random pattern and the first groups seemed to be influenced by the launch system. Like the bullet tips are rotating around the ‘theoretical line of travel’ they are traveling on. Excellent discussion gentleman. Hats off.
Been shooting a tuner for 25 years now and Bill Calfee had it all figured out 35 years ago
Always good topic
Love this!
I dont know why there is even a debate. Tuners work, there is proof. I have personal experience with the B.O.S.S. system on a browning abolt in 300 win mag. I was able to cut my groups from 5/8" to 3/8". It was one of my best shooting rifles.
verry interesting discussion, should be longer on both sides. Is the adjusting of the tuner relatet to a special distance or once adjusted its good for all distances? ( sorry for my english 🙂)
Same setting should work for all distances.
One issue I noticed with the Hornady (et.al.) testing is that they didn’t define the rifles they used and how precise the rifles are. They also didn’t define whether they were using hand loads or how rigid each load was defined, what bullet, what case, etc. It seems if a tuner does concretely work, it may only be observable within rifle configurations that have such a tight tolerance that they *are able* to be tuned. Off the shelf rifles with off the shelf barrels and not a Brux/Hart/Bartlein/etc may not see that level of tuning potential. I’d like them to take YOUR equipment and perform more rigid tests.
That's right dude,but rather see a commercial rifle but with the almost reloads is more like it for individual's rifle or a custom one of your's choice.
The first 10 shots at sitting 10 was 4 inches. The second 10 shots at tuner setting 10 was 6.xx inches. Setting 0 was 8”. That’s in the realm of dispersion
Imo, the only way to make this testing valid is for someone else to set the tuner setting and you don't know it. That's how clinical drug trials must be done: 'double blinded', even the RESEARCHERS knowing which group is the intervention and which is the placebo can influence the results, let alone the trial participants. Your expectations with regard to the tuner setting's performance could easily and significantly affect the result.
Any info on the latest chrono by Caldwell?
Great discussion. I would say that turners do work, the prove is in the pudding, by looking at the two targets. PS. # hey wrong ammo. lol😂 I seen you on fellow TH-camr Back fire, which was informative and fun to watch.
Rookie question. Can I use a tuner on a 6 contour barrel?
Yes.
@@ErikCortina thank you. I’ll be looking into your tuners.
Vibration is vibration it dose not matter what rifle barrel you have
@@michaelmoore4378 I’ve seen some that go over the barrel so I didn’t know if mine was too thick or not. I’ve only seen them on .22.
Erik what about a structured barrel
Wonder if this will be half bleeps and all the info covered up.
Do it on 10 different guns shooting 10 different calibers in 5 different environments show the test data for all data points at a set interval that is repeatable and show that not only 1 is repeatably good but that the ones in between are consistently the same. Then take the tuner off put it back on and do it again.
Then you need to do the same thing but just do weight. Start bare and then increase weight incrementally across all of those same data points.
If you can do all of that and show consistent data that is repeatable in all conditions in all Calibers in all rifles thin, thick, long and short etc then you will have something that is believable and undeniable.
I’m not saying it doesn’t work or can’t work. I’m just saying that’s what it would take to actually show you have something. I have a feeling that if you do that you may learn a lot. I think you will learn that tuners do ‘tune’ the barrel in the sense that things change. I do think you will see significant differences in barrel profile and length, and the ratio between those things and tuner weight.
I think you will find in certain situations you can very much shrink a group down. But I also think that with most tuners that setting will change every time you take it on and off(better tuners maybe not). And that once you change that environment that tuner setting may not longer work. So yes it tuners work because it makes changes but I don’t think you will find a setting for that tuner and that barrel that will always work. And if you can’t do that it is useless. You’ll walk away with a very caveated conclusion that if you are shooting this style barrel with this tuner weight with this range of calibers then it’ll work but once you have it set you can’t remove it or change your environment without completely retuning. If you can conclude that, which is a big if, it truly is only useful to the benchrest and F Class people and only if they have lots of extra resources and time on their hands to constantly be making changes. I’d also bet that if there is a difference, at the end of the day it won’t be that big and it won’t be worth all of the trouble. Extremely inefficient. Would loved to see the test done and to be proved wrong.
Erik, what app were you using to record your shot placement, etc? (I’m new to the sport.)
Shot marker
Great stuff. Thanks
Welp the internet is on fire again. In all seriousness, this is great.
It’s all about finding the truth. That’s what winners do. They don’t care if they’re right or wrong.
Very true pure science
Barrel tuner tests should not be done by someone manufacturing barrel tuners. Seems like bias could be a problem.
It IS a problem
🤔 There May Also Be More Than 1 Approach to "Controlling Barrel Harmonics" and to Provide For More Consistent Shots! I Have Really Never Looked Into It or Given it Any Thought! If The Barrel Was Coated With a Harder Substance (Like Graphene) on the Inside and a Softer Coating on the Outside, Wouldn't That "Normalize" or "Stabilize/Dampen" the "Vibratory Motion", From Shot to Shot? 🤷♂️
Very honorable, well done Erik #WrongAmmo
Thank you.
We need colab testing! You and Jayden together!
The more information the better. Narrows the diagnosis when an issue comes up. Excellent stuff.
What a shame that the muzzle velocity information is gone! 😢 Tuner setting affects ES... what the...?
Hope Jayden runs his test again with new found knowledge from Erik.😅
Well done.
The issue is Hornady tests at a much shorter range. Could be some positive compensation happening. Essentially you load for "best load" and NOT positive compensaion. Now your tuner is making positive compensation happen because of the barrel pointing vector on exit. - I still don't know how you have less followers on Instagram than I do, lol.
I’m restricted on IG for a long time. Only my followers see my posts.
@@ErikCortina Yep, good ol facebook ruining everything. Most of my followers are from my old business Tactical Keychains. I kept my IG account. Getting back into it again tho. Got the Brother Speedio back up and running this week.
Please stop using ES and group size, as these are statistically very poor parameters. Chrono SD and the radius ( mean and SD) are more powerful and straightforward to show statistical differences with fewer shots that typically thought.
Group size is how I’m “graded” in competition. 🤷♂️
Fclass scores are very simiular to radius measurements
@@ErikCortina
You teo should collaborate on a test together.
Great information! This vid is gold! Thank you Erik and thank you Jayden Quinlan. Pretty soon I'm going to order a EC Tuner for my 6.5 PRC
Thank you.
What app is that?
Good stuff. Why they wouldn’t have you do that same test over their big radar beats me. Then you would have the next puzzle piece.
Of course, there would go all of this debate content and views.
If I sold factory ammo, I would sure be looking under every rock for a tool that made my product work better.
I wonder if somebody could film in super slomo with high fps camera the barrel from 12 and 3 o'clock with different tuner settings and record the vibrations?
There are some people working on that.
It is sad to see this lack of understanding of basic statistics. This rep from Hornady is a class act, being respectful in the face of shamanism.
I bet you are fun at parties.
I would not know, I never go to the parties ;) anyways, exactly as the folks from AB and Hornady have said, you can run a test that is statistically significant and prove that with 30+ shot groups you can get a variance at different tuner settings, that are “repeatable” test to test. Easy to do. You are putting screenshots of 10 shot groups in front of a guy from Hornady, that spent literally hours during the Hornady podcast explaining why you should not do that, as they are not statistically significant. Any person with a high school level of mathematics and statistics can design this sort of a test. You are a great shooter, and I enjoy watching your shooting content, yet when you start to “prove” that tuners work (including the famous Speedy gitar riff), it is easy to see you have no idea about statistics and mathematical proofs. AB and Hornady will help you to design an objective test from statistical standpoint. What are you afraid of? You go to this parties while being afraid an objective test will hollow your hoax?
Afraid of? Did you see me have a conversation with both Litz and Jayden? All I did was show them what I have, that’s all. If that doesn’t satisfy you, it’s not my problem, it’s yours. 🤷♂️
I did watch both those podcasts. You had no idea what you are talking about in terms of statistics and mathematics. Both interlocutors were kind enough as not to call your „analysis” naive and incopetent. In this video, the person from Hornady is trying to explain to you, that the shape of this 10 shot group is not representative of statisticaly significant one. It should be round and not vertical. If it is not round, is is either not a large enough sample, or there is smth mechanically wrong with the gun, if the group is so skewed and the sample is large enough (30 shots or more). Again, I respect you as a person and a great shooter. You are one because of your hard work and your talent. And not because of some hoax gizmo at the end of your barrel. Talk to the people at AB and Hornady, design a scientific test and not this hocus pocus kindergarten variety you are trying to sell as „science”. I bet you will not do that, as both AB and Hornady did say they have conducted such tests and tuners don’t work. Prove me wrong :)
@@lekominhes a world champ and prints tons of small groups every practice session, every match, tons of rounds, tons of groups so hes proved it plenty lol
Eric is a great shooter, but I've seen him have a similar conversation with Brian Litz. BTW, Brian cane to the same conclusion as Jaden. I'd like to see Eric participate with either party to do a scientific, statistacially significant sample size study on tuners and settle it once and for all.
@erik - have you tried testing without a tuner(bare muzzle), tuner 0, tuner 10?
You’re making a huge assumption that the tuner makes it “better”. What if it’s the tuner making it worse?
Either way, it’s still proof that the tuner works, even if it makes it worse.
First you need to set a real baseline. Shoot 10 ten shot striings at the same tuner setting spaced timewise to prevent nonuniform barrel heating. Then proceeded to shoot different tuner settings. Erik's first 10 was from cold to warn, and the next 10 was from warm to warmer. Not balanced.
How do I get same wind and atmospheric conditions for that many shots?
Next project: 1000 yard indoor range.😁@@ErikCortina
@@ErikCortina That is a real problem. I guess you need to reopen your construction talent and cut a roofed trench on the ranch. Start a go fund me and I will kick in $100. Let's see here, that would only be 75 end to end 40' containers. You lay the containers on curved ground so you can compensate for the trajectory curve. Likely you will have to use an aiming point at 500 yards because of the restricted height of the containers.
@@ErikCortinaget lou murdica to dig his tunnel out to 1000 yards😜🖖👍
🤠 Horneday is Using the N > 30 Sample Size "Standard Mathematical Practice", But That Number is "Not Set in Stone" As A "Statistical Absolute Minimum" By Any Means! 😃
The earth is round and tuners will work if used correctly.
Hi Eric, will I be able to get an EC Tuner in South Africa?
Yes. Check out gunwarrior.
@@ErikCortina Thanks!
Tuners work! Period. Anything that affects the harmonics of a rifle barrel effects the shot. If you lay your finger on the barrel it will affect the shot, so why would you believe that a barrel tuner wouldn't work. You can wrap tape very tightly around the end of your barrel and even that will affect the shot.
The first barrel tuner I ever used was the old Browning BOSS system and it worked great. I could visibly see the difference it made in the group sizes and position. There were lots of people hating on it because the instructions were complete crap and the starting settings were usually wrong so you had to PUT IN THE WORK to get it dialed in and most shooters just didn't want to shoot 50 shots to get it figured out. I took 100 rounds of 30-06 to the range. 4 hours later and 100 shots I have a perfectly tuned rifle and a VERY sore shoulder, but I put in the work. I don't just know that tuners work I KNOW they work.
You always talk barrell harmonics are a vertical manisfestation of movement. The barrell is circular so the harmonics are radial in nature (360 degrees). Vertical may be true in a flat sheet of steel where horisontal is greater than thichness. But circular harmonics would radiate in a 360 direction down the length of the barrell.