By George, I think you've got it! There is only one regular solid with more faces than the Dodecahedron, and the faces of the Icosahedron are triangles which would not give nearly as stable support for the discs. Also, the on similar looking Icosahedral artifact that I've seen pictures of gives credence to the notion that they were harder to manufacture as precisely. in addition, each face would only give you 3 positions to rotate your cipher disc through. Only the Dodecahedron gives you 5 nodules on each face. I think your account covers the other facts about the artifacts quite convincingly. I noticed that one of your cipher discs had letters on both sides, and that leads me to suggest that the simplicity of the system could be maintained while doubling the number of discs available to use in the comm net. If the dowel for each disc passes all the way through it, then you could, e.g., impress an inked dot in the center of one end of the dowel but not the other. If the dot is up you impress the wax with a nodule at the top of the circle, but if not then you impress it with a nodule at the bottom of the circle. The pentagon can't have an angle at both the top and the bottom of the circle.
Thanks for your really interesting reply, Craig. You have grasped the significance of everything I was trying to say. Your idea of the double sided discs is excellent ! I didn't intend this, as I was just experimenting with a 26 letter wheel on the other side that very obviously didn't work ! Your idea of simply identifying which side of the disc to use is perfect, and would of course double the potential code wheel count to 24. Nice Work ! Cheers Matt
The issue here is that no coding wheels have ever been found with a dodecahedron as far as I know. Also, they would have made the coding wheels from a durable material such as metal r they would deteriorate very quickly, especially if taken with them.
thanks for your comments @MrBsteers, but that is whole point ! All the wheels needed to be made from something that could be destroyed easily and quickly in the ( unlikely) event of a camp or fort being overrun. As I mentioned in the video, maybe in a small fire or brazier kept outside the coding office or tent for that very purpose. The only thing really required was the Dodecahedron. The Plaintext wheel could easily be remade a code maker in about 30 minutes from the right wood. New code wheels to a previously captured station would have to be re-issued with replacements or new ones, depending on the risk to security in a similar way to how the Enigma Machine, Day Code Book was issued each month for example. If the risk was assessed as 'too high' , then new wheels would have to be distributed to the communication network; wheels that had not been compromised could be continued to be used. Cheers
It's a clever suggestion but it doesn't explain the dodecahedral shape. All you would need is a single pentagon. Furthermore if you had 2 wooden disks you wouldn't need a weird object to line them up, and you wouldn't need to be constrained to a Caesar cipher modulo 5.
Yes. Especially worth bearing in mind that these dodecahedrons would be quite complex to make so there must be some reason for the effort (albeit that they may be decorative or proof-of-skill pieces).
Thanks for your feedback @lubumbashi6666 and I understand your reply, which could work. I just wondered if you have seen my Part 3 (th-cam.com/video/mILHAi8z1ec/w-d-xo.html ) using the Dodecahedron, it indicates to the encoder which of his coding / decoding wheels to use. (he could have as many as 12 wooden disks each bearing a different Random Caesar Cipher that he could use to communicate with other parts of his organisation) The benefit of just keeping it simply to modulo 5 is that the sender and receiver don't have to agree on a modulo setting in advance.
Brilliant. I think you found the answer. I have been pondering this for years. I think they would have rotated the wheel after each letter, not each word to avoid the double character problem. Did they ever find any matching pairs of dodecahedrons?
Thanks toki ! Yes - they could have changed the rotor position after every letter. I must admit that I would really like to know if a matching pair has been found. Cheers
Interesting. I was wondering what these dodecahedrons were for. I ask however what the larger versions were for as they seem too large to use on small short messages, i.e. the wax seal would be very large. This solution however seems very elegant and quite possibly true. My initial thought was that they might be a tool to help trade and measure things. Grading olive sizes came to mind. I have a resin printer so I am looking for an STL file to make one.
thanks for your reply @grumblewoof4721 - yes the wax seal would have been larger - taking a measurement from my set up, its about 40mm (approx 1.6 inches ) across the widest dimension. The largest Roman Dodecahedron found is about 110mm tall I believe (4.3 inches) so as a rough estimation, the wax seal would have been about 75mm (3 inches) across. Maybe grading olives could be done by a simple metal ruler with different size holes in it, which would have been much cheaper and easier to produce ? I'm sure an STL file must exist on line somewhere. Regards Matt
Due to these vids I just bought a replica! Last one at the store. $100. Too bad there were not more. This is fun stuff to make and send to others. I will do that.
Clearly a plumbing device. It would hang somewhere below aqueducts to admit pressurized water (pressurized by gravity) through the main, bigger hole. The smaller holes lead to pipes of different sizes according to the need or function of the receiving facility. The channels around the holes are for better action of the glueing agent (alquitran?). The balls on the corners would probably help the ensamble of the piece and give it structure. It would probably also help sustain a piece of fabric, also embeded in alquitran, that would give water tightness and protection against elements. As said, just a plumbing piece. They should check for remnants of pipes and/or channels around. Or maybe aqueducts.
@@limmoblack Thank you. And no, I am not joking. I am not an archaeologist either, only an enthusiast about history. I they should consider my hypothesis seriously. In 2000 years a kid may unground a Rubik’s cube with a shovel and they might marvel and speculate about its origin and meaning… It’s only a puzzle! That will puzzle them… Simple thinking is the way
@@Suinsap I'm sorry, but your explanation of the function doesn't seem nearly as plausible as Matt's. I don't think it would stand up to the kind of application you suggest, and it would surely show more sign of wear. Neither does it explain the distribution, or the absence of reference in the voluminous literature of the time. In short, your account won't wash: it's full of holes, and it won't hold water. (Sorry, I couldn't resist those puns.)
@@craigmooring2091 thank you, you pour clear water through the holes of inconsistency . I am still a “pipeist” “water-distribution ist.. Did anyone think about how the water distribution was allowed after the aqueducts? I don’t think they made a row with buckets below the last arch. They could have developed devices to distibute water to the palaces, baths, villas, maybe some houses… etc. Maybe those devices were made of materials that didn’t persist. I will humble accept your point, but I’ll remain pipeist. Otherwise, the ancient enigma / codifier theory seems pretty credible and fits very well. If they didn’t burn Alexandria…
I don't buy this explanation at all. Why the shape? Why the differing hole sizes? I think this object is some sort of game for entertainment purposes, or, some sort of yarn-weaving device.
Not for yarn weaving, but I agree that it certainly isn't for coding either. They have been found in different sizes which means that this idea just wouldn't work, and some don't even have holes. Also, after studying many units there is no real consistency between the concentric circles either. The only consistency I have found between all units that I have seen is the numbers 5, 12, and 20, so I feel it has something to do with counting.
Not that I need to defend this theory but there would be different sizes and styles. A different army or area or religeous or political leader would have used their own set. Objects with a purpose are often redesigned and altered. Some of the objects without holes çould have been for a wheel set without holes where a different system of matching was used. Or they could have been ornamental copies used as a decorative item for commemorative or other purposes.
Thanks for your reply - I was just trying to show how the system could have worked using a common language that most of us can understand, but using the Classical Latin Alphabet of the time.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 68 | คู่เอก "พระจันทร์ฉาย vs โจนาธาน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/F3IM3w-XchI/mqdefault.jpg)
By George, I think you've got it! There is only one regular solid with more faces than the Dodecahedron, and the faces of the Icosahedron are triangles which would not give nearly as stable support for the discs. Also, the on similar looking Icosahedral artifact that I've seen pictures of gives credence to the notion that they were harder to manufacture as precisely. in addition, each face would only give you 3 positions to rotate your cipher disc through. Only the Dodecahedron gives you 5 nodules on each face.
I think your account covers the other facts about the artifacts quite convincingly.
I noticed that one of your cipher discs had letters on both sides, and that leads me to suggest that the simplicity of the system could be maintained while doubling the number of discs available to use in the comm net. If the dowel for each disc passes all the way through it, then you could, e.g., impress an inked dot in the center of one end of the dowel but not the other. If the dot is up you impress the wax with a nodule at the top of the circle, but if not then you impress it with a nodule at the bottom of the circle. The pentagon can't have an angle at both the top and the bottom of the circle.
Thanks for your really interesting reply, Craig. You have grasped the significance of everything I was trying to say.
Your idea of the double sided discs is excellent !
I didn't intend this, as I was just experimenting with a 26 letter wheel on the other side that very obviously didn't work !
Your idea of simply identifying which side of the disc to use is perfect, and would of course double the potential code wheel count to 24.
Nice Work !
Cheers
Matt
You just have to like British eccentrics. They're indefigable 😂
Thanks Frank ! much appreciated
The issue here is that no coding wheels have ever been found with a dodecahedron as far as I know. Also, they would have made the coding wheels from a durable material such as metal r they would deteriorate very quickly, especially if taken with them.
thanks for your comments @MrBsteers, but that is whole point !
All the wheels needed to be made from something that could be destroyed easily and quickly in the ( unlikely) event of a camp or fort being overrun.
As I mentioned in the video, maybe in a small fire or brazier kept outside the coding office or tent for that very purpose.
The only thing really required was the Dodecahedron.
The Plaintext wheel could easily be remade a code maker in about 30 minutes from the right wood.
New code wheels to a previously captured station would have to be re-issued with replacements or new ones, depending on the risk to security in a similar way to how the Enigma Machine, Day Code Book was issued each month for example.
If the risk was assessed as 'too high' , then new wheels would have to be distributed to the communication network; wheels that had not been compromised could be continued to be used.
Cheers
It's a clever suggestion but it doesn't explain the dodecahedral shape. All you would need is a single pentagon. Furthermore if you had 2 wooden disks you wouldn't need a weird object to line them up, and you wouldn't need to be constrained to a Caesar cipher modulo 5.
Yes. Especially worth bearing in mind that these dodecahedrons would be quite complex to make so there must be some reason for the effort (albeit that they may be decorative or proof-of-skill pieces).
Thanks for your feedback @lubumbashi6666 and I understand your reply, which could work. I just wondered if you have seen my Part 3 (th-cam.com/video/mILHAi8z1ec/w-d-xo.html ) using the Dodecahedron, it indicates to the encoder which of his coding / decoding wheels to use. (he could have as many as 12 wooden disks each bearing a different Random Caesar Cipher that he could use to communicate with other parts of his organisation) The benefit of just keeping it simply to modulo 5 is that the sender and receiver don't have to agree on a modulo setting in advance.
Thanks @chaos.corner
Very clever.
Thank you Tana
Brilliant. I think you found the answer. I have been pondering this for years. I think they would have rotated the wheel after each letter, not each word to avoid the double character problem. Did they ever find any matching pairs of dodecahedrons?
Thanks toki ! Yes - they could have changed the rotor position after every letter. I must admit that I would really like to know if a matching pair has been found.
Cheers
LOL!
Are you for freaking real?
Interesting. I was wondering what these dodecahedrons were for. I ask however what the larger versions were for as they seem too large to use on small short messages, i.e. the wax seal would be very large. This solution however seems very elegant and quite possibly true. My initial thought was that they might be a tool to help trade and measure things. Grading olive sizes came to mind. I have a resin printer so I am looking for an STL file to make one.
thanks for your reply @grumblewoof4721 - yes the wax seal would have been larger - taking a measurement from my set up, its about 40mm (approx 1.6 inches ) across the widest dimension. The largest Roman Dodecahedron found is about 110mm tall I believe (4.3 inches) so as a rough estimation, the wax seal would have been about 75mm
(3 inches) across. Maybe grading olives could be done by a simple metal ruler with different size holes in it, which would have been much cheaper and easier to produce ? I'm sure an STL file must exist on line somewhere.
Regards
Matt
plumbing olives?
@@limmoblack not sure when plumbing olives were invented or by who.
@@grumblewoof4721 Perhaps someone from Pimlico...in Londinium
It was easier to imagine I'm Roman...
Well, that's an excellent starting place panther !
...tic?
Brilliant. Your code-breaking explanation is the standard that all others must overcome.
many thanks @fmostoller - I'm glad you enjoyed it, I just tried to follow the evidence.
???
What?
Due to these vids I just bought a replica! Last one at the store. $100. Too bad there were not more. This is fun stuff to make and send to others. I will do that.
many thanks for your views @fixitlater ! The replicas are great fun
best regards !
Clearly a plumbing device. It would hang somewhere below aqueducts to admit pressurized water (pressurized by gravity) through the main, bigger hole. The smaller holes lead to pipes of different sizes according to the need or function of the receiving facility. The channels around the holes are for better action of the glueing agent (alquitran?). The balls on the corners would probably help the ensamble of the piece and give it structure. It would probably also help sustain a piece of fabric, also embeded in alquitran, that would give water tightness and protection against elements.
As said, just a plumbing piece. They should check for remnants of pipes and/or channels around. Or maybe aqueducts.
I thought you were joking at first, but...
@@limmoblack Thank you. And no, I am not joking. I am not an archaeologist either, only an enthusiast about history. I they should consider my hypothesis seriously.
In 2000 years a kid may unground a Rubik’s cube with a shovel and they might marvel and speculate about its origin and meaning… It’s only a puzzle! That will puzzle them… Simple thinking is the way
@@Suinsap I'm sorry, but your explanation of the function doesn't seem nearly as plausible as Matt's. I don't think it would stand up to the kind of application you suggest, and it would surely show more sign of wear. Neither does it explain the distribution, or the absence of reference in the voluminous literature of the time. In short, your account won't wash: it's full of holes, and it won't hold water. (Sorry, I couldn't resist those puns.)
@@craigmooring2091 thank you, you pour clear water through the holes of inconsistency . I am still a “pipeist” “water-distribution ist..
Did anyone think about how the water distribution was allowed after the aqueducts? I don’t think they made a row with buckets below the last arch. They could have developed devices to distibute water to the palaces, baths, villas, maybe some houses… etc. Maybe those devices were made of materials that didn’t persist.
I will humble accept your point, but I’ll remain pipeist.
Otherwise, the ancient enigma / codifier theory seems pretty credible and fits very well.
If they didn’t burn Alexandria…
Can I have my 11 minutes back?
sorry Michael ! not even the esoterical powers of the Dodechedron can turn back time.............!
Cheers
Matt
I don't buy this explanation at all. Why the shape? Why the differing hole sizes? I think this object is some sort of game for entertainment purposes, or, some sort of yarn-weaving device.
Not for yarn weaving, but I agree that it certainly isn't for coding either. They have been found in different sizes which means that this idea just wouldn't work, and some don't even have holes. Also, after studying many units there is no real consistency between the concentric circles either. The only consistency I have found between all units that I have seen is the numbers 5, 12, and 20, so I feel it has something to do with counting.
Thanks for your reply @dobythedog !
Doby, get your owner to explain it to you. Woof!
Not that I need to defend this theory but there would be different sizes and styles. A different army or area or religeous or political leader would have used their own set. Objects with a purpose are often redesigned and altered. Some of the objects without holes çould have been for a wheel set without holes where a different system of matching was used. Or they could have been ornamental copies used as a decorative item for commemorative or other purposes.
@@radio-ged4626 no military in their right mind would make ornamental versions of their code system.
Replace the w with a v but write the whole message in English 😂
Thanks for your reply - I was just trying to show how the system could have worked using a common language that most of us can understand, but using the Classical Latin Alphabet of the time.
It's a pagan "finger rosary". My wife has an almost identical one, but bidimendional.
Yeah I prefer that solution. Dodecahedrons were considered magical by some ancients, notably Pythagoreans
thanks @davidlosadasoler
Complete and utter nonsense.
Thanks @Kyrelel
@Kyrelel Think you're right, it's for measuring spaghetti.
Indeed!