Are you interested in codes and ciphers ? Will you accept the Dodecahedron Challenge? 00:00 Introduction 29:00 Key Answers to Key Questions 39:00 Ending
Congratulations! After a few hundred years, you are the first to figure out the actual use. Your demonstration and answers to the common questions were totally convincing.
It is a theory. One full of holes. None have been found in Rome or even Italy! They are not Roman. Most coding would have been emanating from Rome I would have thought. Lots have been found with coin hoards and nothing to do with military outposts.
@@Pax.Alotin Actually it seems pretty darn compelling to me. I believe he has solved it. EVERYTHING does seem to line up very nicely with every question answered and accounted for.
@@briangoss8062 As I posted earlier --- It's an interesting idea - Trouble is the Gauls of France & Northern Italy - had at least three written languages including Greek - Etruscan & a Romanised Gaulish alphabet. There would be some difficulties in selecting the right translation wheels. As 'coding' tools - used by the Gauls - you'd think the Romans would have captured at least one. Yet despite Caesars wars in Gaul - he never mentions them in any of his writings. Likewise - if the Romans had used them - then there would have been some sort of written reference to their use by the Roman military - merchants - politicians & ambassadors. But so far - archeologists have found nothing.
I've heard many theories about these dodecahedrons and this is by far the most compelling. You seemed to tie up all the possible loose ends and it all makes sense in context of the Roman world of the time. I really appreciate all the hard work you've done to both investigate and present your ideas!
many thanks for your feedback Matthew, your comments are much appreciated. I have just tried to follow the evidence of what we know, and this is what I've concluded. Cheers Matt
Could be that, it does work, but does not explain why you need a dodecahedron ? Two disks doing the same things could be used for the same purpose. The romans had need for secure communications all over the empire not just in the north. I like the glove making device theory too, because it explains the localisation up north . You wear whool gloves where it is cold.
Just like with the knitting theory, the biggest issue is overengineering of the device. A set of pentagon plates is orders of magnitude easier to manufacture and would achieve the same goal without limiting the users to a set of 12 encoding discs. Hexagonal plates are even more straightforward to manufacture and would only make the cipher stronger in case of longer messages.
Riiiight. You do realise that this "explanation" is complete and utter rubbish, right? This gentleman has a very fecund imagination, though, we can give him that!
@@frontenac5083 Actually it makes perfect sense. Not real sure where you think he went off the tracks. You are also rather insulting and condescending. Also love the counter argument of "Nuhhh uuuhh".
Your thesis makes sense to me. Im impressed at your out of the box thinking that put the dodecahedra in context and provide the other, missing parts of the puzzle. It would be possible to double or triple encode messages, or indeed, to advance the wheel after every letter. For this hypothesis to work, each person in a code network would require identical copies of a dodecahedron. As far as I understand matters, no two that have been found are the same.
thanks for your reply - yes you could advance the wheel after every letter to make it more complex. People would need identical dodecahedrons on the same code network. It would be great to find two identical dodecahedrons !
@@Matt.Geevan Which is unlikely due to the practice being secret by design. It would also be advisable by the user of the system to make as few identical dodecahedrons as possible. Note that identical pieces of equipment come from industrial mass production, even then it is rare to find two identical ancient objects. But this item is the antithesis of industrial mass production, hence the chance of finding two identical ones are minimal.
Would the decoder ring really need to be the same size? Without going into the dreaded realm of math to figure it out for myself.... As long as the disk ratios are the same, shouldn't it still work? Also... what about tolerance? Imagine one disk having larger segments to account for the fact it is smaller.... or bigger, again, not doing the math here!
This is my favorite theory. I especially like the wax seal box. That said, some of these objects are said to be as big as a baseball. That seems a bit big for something made of bronze to take to far off battle and then to use as a wax seal? Theyd need to have an equally large cypher wheel to protect. And Rome would need a dodecahedron identical in construction to theirs.
Thanks Christopher for considering my theory - yes all the Dodecahedrons in a communication network would have to be identical. It is possible that a Legate, or Commander of a Legion may have had an additional, separate Dodecahedron with which to communicate with Rome. Cheers Matt
I'm thinking these would Not be used during a battle but during a campaign ....knowing the Romans there would be an officer in charge of this equipment and well practiced in its use
@@Matt.Geevan Yeah, the size could be an indicator off its importance, for instance communications between legion commanders and the emperor could be baseball size, while centurions could use smaller ones in the field to communicate with their leaders, that where easier to carry & conceal & destroy on capture. Legion to legion communication could be middle size etc. A bit like international dialling codes (largest) vs city dialling codes (mediums) vs local (smallest). They could also be a hint as to the origin of the message, for instance if I am the leader of four legions, I would give every legion commander a different size.
If the ancient Romans didn't use their dodecahedrons for ciphering codes, then they certainly should've! Your excellent detective work has utterly convinced me. Well done, and thanks for posting the video.
Not a single one found in Rome or current day Italy, they were unlikely to be Roman. If coding was a big thing then most should have emanated from the source of military power, Rome.
@@TH-camr-k2p It is unlikely a military messenger travelling in Rome or other friendly territory would be intercepted by barbarians, hence no need for ciphers. If you watch the video this was explained.
@@bobcousins4810 Possibly true, but the Romans were famous plotters. More than one Legion commander in the back of nowhere became Emperor! Keeping political shenanigans and business secrets private would be huge business. Remember that the German Enigma machine was originally marketted as a business tool.
My daughter and I were watching another video on ancient curiosities and this object came up. We came up with a few of our own hypothesis about it and then were curious what other people had come up with and stumbled across your video and were absolutely tickled with it- thank you so much for sharing this! You're a very clever gentleman! A question my daughter had about your theory is that we saw a few that were much larger in size- going along with your theory- I suggested that perhaps the larger ones were for the most important people whom had the misfortune of poor eyesight. There were no eyeglasses in those times- a larger one would allow for larger print.
It could be that the dodecahedrons were made in batches. The XII Legion might commission a batch with certain dimensions strictly for internal official use. The IV Legion would do the same. The Governor of a province might have a batch for contacting the legion commanders, contractors supplying the legions, spies, etc. This would explain variations in the devices quite easily. An analysis of the various sizes of units found and their locations could give a hint as to the extent of each of these ancient communications networks. If a unit in Rome is found to be absolutely identical to one in Vindolanda, then we might surmise that a Roman official was in personal contact with someone in the fort. I wonder if these devices show any sign of being mass produced in identical batches?
I think you are right. Bureaucrats, merchants, military, nobility and who knows how many more.. If the were all made the same size a merchant could read a military message and so on.
A very interesting idea - but I think the encryption system could work well enough without the dodecahedron - which is just a very elaborate and expensive way to tell the recipient which decoding wheel to use. The wheels could simply be given numbers (I think the Enigma wheels were identified by Roman numerals!) and the required wheel number could be be stamped on the wax seal. Someone in possession of a set of wheels but without the dodecahedron could easily decode the message by trying each wheel in turn.
Good argument. But in a military context, time is essential and a device to speed up the decoding process could be useful. Also it is easier to break the code if the number of the code wheel was known to the enemy. But measuring the size of the wheel by looking at the seal is much more difficult.
@@ratatoskr1069 Yes - but you only need to decode a few characters to know if you have the right wheel or not - it would not take long to find the correct wheel.
I do not think the dodecahedrons were for coding even though they work in the video. It would be awesome to find a description of their use in an ancient text somewhere, which I think is the only way to settle this mystery.
This was a fantastic video. I have waited for years to find out what the dodecahedron was used for and this to me completely explains the reason there’s no text on it. There’s no references to it and why it is such a clean object found. Thank you for this information. It has been the last piece of puzzle in the picture.
Remarkable! My congratulations on figuring out this mystery and, more to the point, admiration for the amount of time and effort it must have taken you. Your explanation appears to settle all the questions.
Brilliant! Thank you for producing this. I used to use codes in combat during the 1960s but had never heard of this until yesterday, and now of course your very good explanation.
With a small change it can be a lot more secure: using the dot inside the rhombus as space in the clear text so the encoded characters are written one after the other. That requires to also shuffle the rhombus with a dot. When decoding and finding a space the rotation is done for the next word. Repeated characters can be encoded using the encoding for the asterisk.
Enjoyed the detailed explanation. One of the better ones. There are also cubes that exist with more sides. Different sizes. And also equal size holes. Having all the same size holes would change the theory. All we need now is to find a coded message of instructions.
By far the most interesting theory about these objects. You certainly addressed all the observations surrounding these objects. It would be great if wooden cipher wheels or tablets would be found to give further credence to the theory.
From my military time , this makes more sense.with all the facts of location found ,size,shape and other factors makes the most sense of all the other theories. Very logical
Brilliant. But, may I make a suggested modification: 1. the inserted wheel (the rotor) is shrunk to a pentagon the size of each side, perhaps 5 letters per side. 2. rotors are placed simultaneously on each side. This allows reading across the edge from one wheel to another. One may take a letter on the inner wheel, find the same letter on the outer wheel, then cross to a new face and continue the process several times, perhaps rotating wheels as one goes. This becomes a sort of ancient enigma machine with a very strong encryption (5^12 combos!). Even if the rotors are captured and the techniques are well known the rotors initial settings are still needed. If one held the rotor by its knob while shifting from one edge to the other, thus rotating the rotor, the device is absolutely uncrackable without modern computers. I _think_ if you always go until you are back on the original side, you just need to rotate backwards (or switch hands) to get back the original message, but that would require some experimentation. Wax in the center of the dodecahedreon would perhaps be good to keep the rotors from falling out, especially if a lathed notch was cut out in the rotor knob part that sticks into the center. I have to say, in my mind you have absolutely solved the purpose of these devices. There should be the sound of thousands of historians slapping their heads in "why didn't I think of that?" amazement. Congratulations are certainly in order.
@@Matt.Geevan By the way, I see a number of comments about the icosohedron with people wondering how it fits with your theory. The icosohedron can also be use for encryption in exactly the same way. In the this method outlined above, the encryption is also just as strong or a little stronger (3^20 combos instead of 5^12). I will also note the icosohedron is a dual of the dodecahedron. This means that the points of one correspond to the faces of the other. 12 points on an icosohedron, 20 on a dodecahedron.... In fact, if you take 20 appropriately sized equilateral triangles with punctures in their centers and fit them on the knobs of your device it will become an icosoheron. Also 12 pentagons with holes in the middle would fit on the icosohedron to build a dodecahedron. so with just a few small cut pieces of thin wood or card stock they are equivalent.
Absolutely brilliant work! Well done 👏🏻 I was just watching another video on the dodecahedron last night. This is by far the best theory I have heard so far. Good luck with testing it out on the field👍🏻
This is an amazingly compelling theory, love it. Although from a security standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to rotate after every letter instead of word to obscure the spaces between words which could leave context clues in the message. Alternatively rotate after every word and encode the space after the word with it as one of the null characters. In the decoding step you know when to turn when a null/space shows up. Encrypted message would either be one continuous string with two extra characters or have spaces in random intervals that would throw off codebreakers expecting regular rotation cyphers. I also really like the proposed sealing process, this ensures that the message can be easily decrypted only one time during the seal breaking and even if the message gets discovered or captured afterwards with the disk and wheels, its contents are relatively safe. Also the flexibility in establishing private but overlapping communication channels with basically standardized parts is fantastic. A few other commenters mention that the hole distribution is not uniform between finds, but this is more a feature. Identical dodecahedrons will allow full channel communication between these two, but slight variations of the hole orientations allows channel splitting as long as the affected codewheels/diameters are sorted out for communication between the original two.
enjoyed your comments @realMohock, you really grasped what I was trying to convey ! You are of course correct in suggesting that it would be better to rotate after every letter, which would certainly improve the security of the system. I was just trying to keep the process simple, to facilitate 'back-checking' each word after encription and decryption. Really good idea of yours to include the spaces as part of the code also. Thanks Matt
It should be noted that Romans for the most part used SCRIPTIO CONTINUA, so there were no spaces nor interpuncts. Also even modern wheel systems (Enigma, Hagelin, Fialka) don't use spaces as that could affect frequency analysis.
Explain the logic of something supposedly Roman but never found in Rome or Italy. 130 in northern France area and 3 from Britain. One on the Silk Road with no holes on the road to China, it was gold. A 20 sided one without holes. Not necessarily found with military camps, this was overstated in the video, some in graves, many with hoards of coins.
Absolute genius! Spectacular job sir. Being intrigued by these objects for many years and to now understand their purpose is truly a certain kind of bliss. Thank you for what is nothing less than a gift to mankind!
Very clever... very clever... My biggest gripe here is that if this was a military secret, why have we found so many and in such diverse contexts? We've found these things carelessly thrown away with broken pottery. Nor would a military secret be a burial good. You'd give it to the new decoder, or melt it down so that spies couldn't recover it. I think we'd also expect to see it more evenly distributed across the Roman Empire. Surely a encryption system like this would have been very useful on the eastern border with Persia! The fact that we don't have any surviving records of them is not really a mystery that warrants an explanation, imo. Also, this answer seems to lack a explanation for the icosahedron with its many tiny holes. Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. This explanation was wickedly clever, so big props for that. Cheers from the other side of the pond!
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, @Imperiused ! I wasn't offering an explanation for the icosahedron, but I will consider your comments. Cheers Matt
What happens to the thing if its owner dies and he was the only one around who knows what its for? I would think it either gets confiscated by his replacement or else..
The obvious problem with your hypothesis is that there is no standard set of hole sizes in known Roman dodecahedrons (or for that matter in the size of the dodecahedrons). Standard sizes would be needed for the cryptographic scheme you describe to work.
I was looking for a comment that would mention this, and here it is... You are absolutely correct and that's why I don't believe that the hypothesis presented in this video is correct. Saying "all we need to find are two Dodecahedrons that are alike" is all but admitting that this video is nothing more than wishful thinking, albeit quite clever wishful thinking. There are also several other problems with this hypothesis, but others in this comment section have addressed most of them.
@@Matt.Geevan I disagree. I would argue that very varied dodecahedrons are features of the system, not bugs. You would want as few identical ones as possible. Ideally you would want just one pair to be completely sure only your peer can decipher the message. One network should have as few participants as possible. A General would want to use one design of dodecahedron for communication with Rome, and anpother one for communication with other commanders. If the item is too standardized, the system looses reliability. The fact that all found dodecahedrons are completely different in shape supports the proposed theorey of encryption device very well. Even that 20-sided item that was found, with the tiny holes, could just be an even more complex iteration of the theory you put forward. Imagin the other way around: If it was the case, that dodecahedrons were commonly found to be of identical shape, like types of pottery vessels, we might look simply at a decorative object of originally polished bronze. We would be more likely in candle holder land. That the opposite is the case, supports your theory.
Kudos! excellent problem solving approach and delightfully clear explanation which gracefully covered so many details of the object and how it would work so well in your hypothesis - so many of the practical matters of its use for cryptography (resistance to compromise, need for rapid destruction in extremis, simplicity and robustness) fell into place as you proceeded, I found myself gleefully following your explanation by the end. Hope you get credit for “breaking the code” on this (publish a paper if you can, or do the equivalent with your video - and copyright it). Best.
A very ingenious and cohesive explanation, and hits all the points that need explaining. It stands out as a serious theory, as all others I have seen are seriously weak. Eg. if it was a gambling die, then why not found everywhere. One issue I note with other explanation is that bronze was relatively expensive in Roman times, so items made for mundane uses are not likely to be metal. e.g. candle holders could be made out of clay. If the clay breaks just make a new one. Where there was a need for precision and durability, the military could command such an expense. Also appreciate the references to Enigma and Gladiator :)
That's a really good explanation of what these objects were made for (allegedly). It does all seem to fit the scant evidence we have about them. I think I'm convinced. However, in addition to these 'dodecahedrons' there have also been 'icosahedrons' found. Which are very similar, but have 20 sides, and don't appear to have different sized holes in the faces. They only seem to have a set of 4 .5mm-ish holes, with circles around them, arranged in a triangular fashion, with a hole in the centre, place on each of the 20 sides. The sides all seem to be slightly dished inwards as well. All the hole arrangements on all the faces, and all the holes themselves seem to be identical on all the faces (I believe???). If used in the manner you describe for the dodecahedrons, these Icosahedrons would not work as a) there are no through holes and b) all of the holes (blind) are identical in diameter (I believe????). What would your explanation for these be?
I posted this on Paul Whitewick's channel before seeing yours. I agreee with you. For the interested. I gave ChatGPT a description without context. I told it the object was being introduced in a novel i was writing and to guess its use. Based off this and watching your video, my guess would be military use. Possibly ancient encryption and decryption device. This use would explain why there is few of them and no mentions of them in contemporary writing. This would be the case for items used for secret military use in modern times. Below is the top 3 guesses by the GPT. "1. Ancient or Alien Communication Device Reasoning: Bronze is a durable metal often used in historical artifacts. The holes and knobs suggest it could be used to transmit or amplify sound or light. As a communication device, it could have been designed to last and withstand various conditions. 2. Scientific Instrument or Measuring Device Reasoning: Bronze is resistant to corrosion, making it ideal for precision instruments that need to endure environmental factors. The holes of varying sizes could be part of a system for measuring sound frequencies, fluid flow, or light refraction. 3. Puzzle or Locking Mechanism Reasoning: The solid construction of bronze adds to the durability and complexity of a puzzle or locking mechanism. The knobs might need to be turned or pressed in a specific sequence to align the holes correctly, functioning as a key to a larger, more intricate lock or device."
@@frontenac5083 I did not say it reasons, but i do agree with you being flawed. Fortunately, I can reason but also my conclusions are always bound to be flawed. So is yours. The nice thing though, AI is really good and recognizing pattern in our language. So utilizing its very expansive neural network and its ability to more reasonably guess which words most likely come next after the detailed description, me as the reasoning body have a stronger starting position in my logic than without. You should bever let your biases limit you, its ok to explore things that you may think are flawed, as long as you bring your power of reasoning with you. Have a nice day. PS: the vast majority of people reasoned its for knitting.....The number one guess by AI is a communication device. Matt Geevans guess is a form of communication. I also agree its most likely designed for use in communications. So, where does that leave the vast majority of people who were allowed context into their reasoning? What i took from AI, was that the knobs, and holes are intentional and necessary. The choice of material is a huge take away. The complexity and skill required in design. From contextual facts of locations and no mention in writings means it was limited to its users and most likely expensive to make. From here we can begin to reason its use.
I like your analysis and find it compelling. The military usage makes a lot of sense. If the Roman church had used these I would expect some to turn up in Vatican or cathedral archives.
This is the only theory I have ever seen elaborated on and it's very convincing. Well done. It could be regarded as an early fore-runner of an Enigma machine. The only complication I can think of (although I don't think it invalidates your theory), is that there are also examples of similarly constructed icosahedrons, which have triangular sides each of which has a hole in the middle surrounded by a triangular arrangement of three holes. Some of these central holes are very small indeed and don't seem to have any variation in size. Maybe these icosahedrons had a completely different use from the dodecahedrons, but do you think there is any way they could be incorporated into your cryptography theory, or can you think of any other explanation?
thanks @random_person347 your question which is really interesting ! I don't think that the icosahedrons have anything to do with my coding system theory, because of their difficulty in manufacture, they would only offer a 'modulo 3' shift instead of the 'modulo 5' shift that the Dodecahedron offers, and I agree with you that the icosahedrons had a totally different use. Cheers Matt
The main objection to your theory I can think of, as far as I know, is that there might be no uniformity between the examples that have been found in terms of the sizes of holes. Is it possible to check this from information that is publicly available?
Unfortunately, this is information that I've not been able to obtain as the sources of detailed measurements are probably not available to the general public for some reason.
Fascinating and useable! It may not have gone all the way around the Roman Empire depending on when it was developed, and possibly by whom. One set of Roman commanders might have been made familiar with the method with others, further from Rome might have found it “too difficult, I’ll just trust my runners”, or whatever they learned as young commanders. Stodgy happens! Bigger examples might be for the bosses with poorer eyesight!😊
This theory is a very good reason to support the fact that so feew of these have been found. What a GREAT way to get kids to understand very cryproc ciphers. I really desire to make one for my grandbabies... oh, the possibilities are endless
Very plausible, and kudos for the explanation - interestingly, modern war codes (including Enigma) were split into 5-letter groups for ease of dissemination. Now one must find out why this mechanism was not universally used throughout the Roman empire - including Italy too. By geographic location of their findings, perhaps it was a device used against the Romans, not by them...
Well done! This is both logical and practical - the very best solution that I have heard, The demonstration was well done and extremely clear, so many thanks for that! Best regards, and congratulations!
A very convincing theory. It sneaks ahead of the knitting/rope/ intricate jewelry theory. Maybe it was a type of early multi-tool? Who knows? But you go to the top of the list with your theory for sure. Glad that there are some clever people out there giving things like this some serious thought. My theory was that it is the ideal object to throw at somebody's head if they are annoying you, lol! Hopefully archaeological evidence will one day prove you right.
This seems to fit everything. My previous go-to explanation was a religious rite, but that still left the hole of why it wasn't pictured with priests and other notables. If it was an enigma machine, that makes sense.
The explanation was interesting and the intuition that led you to develop this theory was brilliant and ingenious. In Italy they tell us that engineers have little imagination but you are proof that we are not all like that. I have a little difficulty imagining the lost wax pattern used to create the dodecahedron but I know that European craftsmen of the 1st century BC were capable of reproducing wonders in copper alloy
It would appear to be an early version of the Vigenère cipher, which "rotates" the cipher every character, instead of every word. I encourage you to look up the Vigenère cipher, as it is very interesting reading.
A very interesting hypothesis. It covers all the facts that I've heard regarding the dodecahedra. The one stretch is the idea that it was never documented. Since most enciphering systems have been described at one time or another, the conclusion that the secret was kept for this one system seems weak, especially if it was used by multiple organizations.
That's indeed a stretch, but the bigger stretch is that no two are alike, which they would have to be in order for this hypothesis to work. It's a clever idea, but it just doesn't match reality.
37:33 - A very interesting analysis. I'd say the missing element is that the dodecahedrons found were of various sizes and not really standardized - if it is found that dodecahedrons are of specific sizes, and that locations they are found correspond to command and deployment, that might close this hole.
The various sizes would have been issued with appropriate wheel sizes, and perhaps it's more about the circles around the hole on the side that indicates the origin. We could get even more complex with a multi wheel use per message. By far this is the most plausible explanation I have seen. I agree that perhaps different crafters of this device may have intended it for use at specific locations, and because of secrecy there was no " standard size" only a standard code wheel which could be replaced.
@@Dagroovi I disagree, no two match which means that this hypothesis is incorrect unless there are several matching pairs or sets discovered, which seems unlikely.
Whether it's these things, or the Great Pyramid, no matter what mystery it is; there's always going to be some tradie or engineer nobody ever heard of who figured it out.
Bravo! I only recently have read of the dodecahedron device. Yours seems like a very good explanation of what it could have been used for. I particularly find this interesting as I was once a military cryptograph operator. Cheers
Super interesting hypothesis. However it has its problems: - manufacturing would have implied critical dimensions - from the specimens found there is huge variability in hole and knob dimensions - overall sizes themselves vary a lot, recently a huge one was found which totally defeats the purported purpose. - not sure how the icosahedron specimen from Germany could fit - such an excellent and advanced encryption system would have hardly been lost, remember there is continuity of the state up until the XV century... or even up to today if you count the church. - too advanced for the era, military technologies tend to advance together with their counter technology, be it armour vs antiarmour , aircraft vs antiarcraft, comms vs comint, encryption vs cryptanalisis... and such a device would be secure well into WWI. - SUPER important, the dodecahedron (the only physical evidence) would be almost superfluous, just to represent the key, yet the bulkier and most size critical part. That implies too much speculation for too little evidence with a rather capricious connection between the two - no known wooden tablet with such characteristics exists despite thousands being found (admittedly not resistant to time and easily destructible) - two additional characters forced there when the Romans did not use space when writing nor even had a symbol for zero/nulla, it is really an extraneous concept. So, I really don't think it is plausible. Although it is a great attempt that I applaud. And it definitely could work in historical fiction, I wouldn't be surprised if your idea ends up embedded in a book or a movie some day!
The intro with the Gladiator wheat field & Dead can Dance spoils the ending of the film EVERY TIME! If you don't want to know, don't scroll down... First, find a painting called "The Harvesters". It's an oil painting on wood completed by Pieter Bruegel the Elder in 1565. It depicts the harvest time set in a landscape, in the months of July and August or late summer. Notice the wheat? Look how tall it is! It wasn't until the "green revolution" in the 1950's that we developed high yield, much shorter wheat. Shorter wheat meant less damage from wind & rain and the yeild per acre went up too. So Romans ambling through hip height wheat mever happened.
I would say the case for using it as a wax seal is pretty solid at this point. The wax traces combined with the "knobs" to keep it a fixed distance from the surface make for a good case. It would also not be a wax seal for an individual as it is too generic. As such, I would also say it is highly likely to be used an authentication device. The case for your particular usage as encryption is less strong. There have never been any such letter wheels. That would imply that they were either made from flimsy material and have degraded, or they never existed.... If they were made from flimsy material, they wouldn't have stood up for their intended usage over time. Having said that, there is enough information present to use any number of encryption systems that could be used with the information present on only the dodecahedron and would not require the other party to have one of the exact same size and circular patterns. I would envision that if you were going to get a system, you would purchase several (2-?) dodecahedrons at a time. So finding some identical ones would provide some support for that theory. However, one could imagine that a craftsman would make a bunch at the same time, using the same setup (tooling?). Another possible theory is that the Dodecahedron was used as a counting device. Let's say you were to count out a number of coins, you would rotate the dodecahedron for let's say every 10 coins counted. You would then then place the coins in the box, and wax seal it with the final count. The larger packages could then be stored/shipped with the seal intact.
Probably the best explanation thus far. However until the corresponding decoder wheels are found then it is just a theory. Hopefully they were bronze as well.
Its another idea to chuck on the theory pile. I applaud the hands on approach, well done. However, despite the fact it is well thought out, I dont think it is a closed case yet.
Congratulations! Great job! ❤ One of dodecahedrons is found in Serbia in 2006. If dating of these instruments are between 2. and 4. century it make sense that there was no need for them in central and eastern parts of empire, because these regions were extra safe. It was period of Illyrian emperors, military emperors and 18 of them were from now days Serbia territory, something like Prussia was for Germany much later, and for example, most of legions in empire were stationed in Balkans, 10 of them, mostly I think because it's central position. There is only one question, why Romans stopped using dodecahedrons, and what replaced it as decipher tool? Cuz soon after the end 4th and begining of 5th century western Roman Empire starts its declining and final fall.
That idea system inherently works, that's something to admit. So now knowing that very possible solution, the search for additional prove may begin, I'm very curious. If some texts get into focus, that mention encryption tools, or remains of such a wax seal appear - or let some remains of the wheels have survived close to a new finding - whatever, it wouldn't take much to PROVE the theory to a very safe level of confidence. I think it's obviously harder to exclude that use for sure.
A good explaination of this thing but I'm not convinced. Makes sense except that I'm not sure why a difficult to manufacture bulky bronze device with different size holes is needed. You could achieve the same effect with a peg in the larger plain wheel or a smaller, flat peg board and using the same diameter peg & hole combination in the middle for all coded wheels. This way you wouldn't be limited to only 12 cypher wheels, you could have a unique code wheel for each agent with a partner available at one or possibly more authorised communication centres. All that you need to know is who the message comes from or is intended for to identify which wheel to use. Even without the bronze dodecahedron you could decode any message so long as you knew which code wheel had been used to encrypt it and you had a copy to hand.
This is a very elegant and plausible use for the dodecahedrons, given the locations where they have been found. It would be good to find some military training documents confirming this possible use.
thanks for your comment David - As you perhaps saw near the end of my video, I don't think that we will find any military training documents because the whole idea was that it had to remain a secret from enemies and codebreakers, and for as long as possible, hence there is no written documents or drawings of the object.
I think the only possible counter to this theory, is whether the dodecahedrons actually had matching sizes of holes that were decorated similarly. While not necessarily an impediment to your theory, the fact that there are dodecahedrons of differing sizes known to exist would seem to indicate an imcompatibility. To my knowledge, they havent been studied to that sort of exactness. It would require checking to make sure that at least two opposite sides, had an exact match with another dodecahedron in sizes of holes, number and size of rings around those holes, if not relations to the other ten holes. This is definitely an ingenuous and workable theory, but I'm still skeptical.
The Enigma cypher machine was originally marketed in the early 1920s as a means for encrypting commercial messages - the German military didn't take it up till later. Ì'd never heard about this before, so thanks Matt. Cheers 🍻!
many thanks @timeandnourishment1961 ! I did think of using this fact in my video, but I thought it would make my first video even longer ! I may use it in a follow up video along with a picture I took at Bletchley Park of one of the Enigma machines a couple of years back, to reply to some of the comments I have received.
Which is why the Enigma machines, and presumably the dodecahedron, are not particularly rare. The machine is a generic tool, the power of the encryption comes from an ever changing set of code wheels, dictated by a secret code book.
I really like this explanation, as it makes sense given the physical evidence we have. The only issue I can see would be to detail a system of key distribution, which is the perennial problem in all cipher systems.
I can only find pictures of one without holes. Judging by the picture I'd say all the knobs were different sizes, so you could still use a dodecahedron in the way described in the video, but picking the right decoding wheels would be done by the size and location of the knobs not the central hole.
Hey Matt, really liked the video and just wanted to add one or the other idea or thought. First of all your theory requires that all Dodecahedrons involed in the information chain across an entire province/Legion got to be identical in shape and size for it to work and i guess a complete kit do code and decode would consist of twelve wooden wheels. I would also imagine that certain kinds of messages or orders would've required a higher level of authentification to prevent forgery or abuse of the system by subordinates. I could imagine that those kind of coded messages woudld've had added ringseals either on the waxknob or in paint of the coded textletter itself. I have to add that your argument, concerning the quite limited area of the objects being found compared to the size of the roman empire was not convincing to me. I agree that the nature of the landscape in north eastern provinces were particularly challenging and dangerous for messengers, but the same can be said for messengers in the far eastern provinces like Syria where cities like Dura Europos and its roadways were constantly under threat by the Parthians and local bandits. Bastions in those provinces were few and faar between so an encrypted messeging system would've been as useful or neccessary as in Briton or Gaul.
thanks very much for your detailed reply, yallah - yes, a complete set of coded wheels could be given to a station, but only if the leader of the communication group required it. I like your idea of the addition of the ringseal, which is perfectly possible, but this of course would give the information as to who sent the message. Thanks Matt
Congratulations! After a few hundred years, you are the first to figure out the actual use. Your demonstration and answers to the common questions were totally convincing.
It is a theory. One full of holes. None have been found in Rome or even Italy! They are not Roman. Most coding would have been emanating from Rome I would have thought. Lots have been found with coin hoards and nothing to do with military outposts.
Thanks Ken, I just tried to piece together the information that we have
*Kenperry* -- Actual use ? Let's keep our powder dry.
@@Pax.Alotin Actually it seems pretty darn compelling to me. I believe he has solved it. EVERYTHING does seem to line up very nicely with every question answered and accounted for.
@@briangoss8062 As I posted earlier --- It's an interesting idea - Trouble is the Gauls of France & Northern Italy - had at least three written languages including Greek - Etruscan & a Romanised Gaulish alphabet. There would be some difficulties in selecting the right translation wheels. As 'coding' tools - used by the Gauls - you'd think the Romans would have captured at least one. Yet despite Caesars wars in Gaul - he never mentions them in any of his writings. Likewise - if the Romans had used them - then there would have been some sort of written reference to their use by the Roman military - merchants - politicians & ambassadors. But so far - archeologists have found nothing.
I've heard many theories about these dodecahedrons and this is by far the most compelling. You seemed to tie up all the possible loose ends and it all makes sense in context of the Roman world of the time. I really appreciate all the hard work you've done to both investigate and present your ideas!
many thanks for your feedback Matthew, your comments are much appreciated. I have just tried to follow the evidence of what we know, and this is what I've concluded.
Cheers
Matt
Absolutely agree! Best and most comprehensive theory with a full demonstration. Well done!
Could be that, it does work, but does not explain why you need a dodecahedron ?
Two disks doing the same things could be used for the same purpose.
The romans had need for secure communications all over the empire not just in the north.
I like the glove making device theory too, because it explains the localisation up north . You wear whool gloves where it is cold.
Just like with the knitting theory, the biggest issue is overengineering of the device. A set of pentagon plates is orders of magnitude easier to manufacture and would achieve the same goal without limiting the users to a set of 12 encoding discs. Hexagonal plates are even more straightforward to manufacture and would only make the cipher stronger in case of longer messages.
First prize! I think you cracked it, love the down-to-earth approach. Can see no flaws yet.
Thanks very much Billy !
The best and most comprehensive theory with a full demonstration. Well done! Youve put the pieces together that nobody else could!
Thank you for your kind reply !
Riiiight.
You do realise that this "explanation" is complete and utter rubbish, right?
This gentleman has a very fecund imagination, though, we can give him that!
@@frontenac5083 Curious to hear your arguments.
@@frontenac5083 Actually it makes perfect sense. Not real sure where you think he went off the tracks. You are also rather insulting and condescending. Also love the counter argument of "Nuhhh uuuhh".
Makes perfect sense with the military camp pattern of discovery, within harshly contested territories. Absolutely brilliant.
Many thanks for your comments, Wrath !
Your thesis makes sense to me. Im impressed at your out of the box thinking that put the dodecahedra in context and provide the other, missing parts of the puzzle. It would be possible to double or triple encode messages, or indeed, to advance the wheel after every letter. For this hypothesis to work, each person in a code network would require identical copies of a dodecahedron. As far as I understand matters, no two that have been found are the same.
thanks for your reply - yes you could advance the wheel after every letter to make it more complex. People would need identical dodecahedrons on the same code network.
It would be great to find two identical dodecahedrons !
@@Matt.Geevan Which is unlikely due to the practice being secret by design. It would also be advisable by the user of the system to make as few identical dodecahedrons as possible. Note that identical pieces of equipment come from industrial mass production, even then it is rare to find two identical ancient objects. But this item is the antithesis of industrial mass production, hence the chance of finding two identical ones are minimal.
Would the decoder ring really need to be the same size?
Without going into the dreaded realm of math to figure it out for myself....
As long as the disk ratios are the same, shouldn't it still work?
Also... what about tolerance?
Imagine one disk having larger segments to account for the fact it is smaller....
or bigger, again, not doing the math here!
This is my favorite theory. I especially like the wax seal box. That said, some of these objects are said to be as big as a baseball. That seems a bit big for something made of bronze to take to far off battle and then to use as a wax seal? Theyd need to have an equally large cypher wheel to protect. And Rome would need a dodecahedron identical in construction to theirs.
Thanks Christopher for considering my theory - yes all the Dodecahedrons in a communication network would have to be identical. It is possible that a Legate, or Commander of a Legion may have had an additional, separate Dodecahedron with which to communicate with Rome.
Cheers
Matt
I'm thinking these would Not be used during a battle but during a campaign ....knowing the Romans there would be an officer in charge of this equipment and well practiced in its use
@@Matt.Geevan Yeah, the size could be an indicator off its importance, for instance communications between legion commanders and the emperor could be baseball size, while centurions could use smaller ones in the field to communicate with their leaders, that where easier to carry & conceal & destroy on capture. Legion to legion communication could be middle size etc. A bit like international dialling codes (largest) vs city dialling codes (mediums) vs local (smallest). They could also be a hint as to the origin of the message, for instance if I am the leader of four legions, I would give every legion commander a different size.
You would have to ask a Roman slave if it was too big.
If the ancient Romans didn't use their dodecahedrons for ciphering codes, then they certainly should've! Your excellent detective work has utterly convinced me. Well done, and thanks for posting the video.
Thanks Will, much appreciated !
Not a single one found in Rome or current day Italy, they were unlikely to be Roman. If coding was a big thing then most should have emanated from the source of military power, Rome.
@@TH-camr-k2p It is unlikely a military messenger travelling in Rome or other friendly territory would be intercepted by barbarians, hence no need for ciphers. If you watch the video this was explained.
@@bobcousins4810 Possibly true, but the Romans were famous plotters. More than one Legion commander in the back of nowhere became Emperor! Keeping political shenanigans and business secrets private would be huge business. Remember that the German Enigma machine was originally marketted as a business tool.
My daughter and I were watching another video on ancient curiosities and this object came up. We came up with a few of our own hypothesis about it and then were curious what other people had come up with and stumbled across your video and were absolutely tickled with it- thank you so much for sharing this! You're a very clever gentleman!
A question my daughter had about your theory is that we saw a few that were much larger in size- going along with your theory- I suggested that perhaps the larger ones were for the most important people whom had the misfortune of poor eyesight. There were no eyeglasses in those times- a larger one would allow for larger print.
many thanks ! - I'm glad you liked it
It could be that the dodecahedrons were made in batches. The XII Legion might commission a batch with certain dimensions strictly for internal official use. The IV Legion would do the same. The Governor of a province might have a batch for contacting the legion commanders, contractors supplying the legions, spies, etc. This would explain variations in the devices quite easily.
An analysis of the various sizes of units found and their locations could give a hint as to the extent of each of these ancient communications networks. If a unit in Rome is found to be absolutely identical to one in Vindolanda, then we might surmise that a Roman official was in personal contact with someone in the fort. I wonder if these devices show any sign of being mass produced in identical batches?
I think you are right. Bureaucrats, merchants, military, nobility and who knows how many more.. If the were all made the same size a merchant could read a military message and so on.
A very interesting idea - but I think the encryption system could work well enough without the dodecahedron - which is just a very elaborate and expensive way to tell the recipient which decoding wheel to use. The wheels could simply be given numbers (I think the Enigma wheels were identified by Roman numerals!) and the required wheel number could be be stamped on the wax seal. Someone in possession of a set of wheels but without the dodecahedron could easily decode the message by trying each wheel in turn.
Good argument. But in a military context, time is essential and a device to speed up the decoding process could be useful. Also it is easier to break the code if the number of the code wheel was known to the enemy. But measuring the size of the wheel by looking at the seal is much more difficult.
@@ratatoskr1069 Yes - but you only need to decode a few characters to know if you have the right wheel or not - it would not take long to find the correct wheel.
I do not think the dodecahedrons were for coding even though they work in the video. It would be awesome to find a description of their use in an ancient text somewhere, which I think is the only way to settle this mystery.
Yes - that is the most skillful part of the decoding - that's where I think that the rings surrounding the holes help the decoder with this process.
if indeed you owned the correct wheel.
Great video, Matt. This is the best explanation of the purpose for the dodecahedron I've seen. Congratulations on your 1st video!
Many thanks @superstring101 !
The Roman Enigma Machine...
Cheers.
Thanks @zachariaszut - Exactly !
This was a fantastic video. I have waited for years to find out what the dodecahedron was used for and this to me completely explains the reason there’s no text on it. There’s no references to it and why it is such a clean object found. Thank you for this information. It has been the last piece of puzzle in the picture.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The lack of documentation on their use is what messes with me too.....
Remarkable! My congratulations on figuring out this mystery and, more to the point, admiration for the amount of time and effort it must have taken you. Your explanation appears to settle all the questions.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Glad you enjoyed it @GemApps !
Brilliant! Thank you for producing this. I used to use codes in combat during the 1960s but had never heard of this until yesterday, and now of course your very good explanation.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks very much for your insight.
Cheers
With a small change it can be a lot more secure: using the dot inside the rhombus as space in the clear text so the encoded characters are written one after the other. That requires to also shuffle the rhombus with a dot. When decoding and finding a space the rotation is done for the next word. Repeated characters can be encoded using the encoding for the asterisk.
Thanks very much for your observation !
Cheers
Matt
Enjoyed the detailed explanation. One of the better ones. There are also cubes that exist with more sides. Different sizes. And also equal size holes. Having all the same size holes would change the theory. All we need now is to find a coded message of instructions.
Absolutely Dave !
By far the most interesting theory about these objects. You certainly addressed all the observations surrounding these objects. It would be great if wooden cipher wheels or tablets would be found to give further credence to the theory.
Yes - that would be great !
Thanks
From my military time , this makes more sense.with all the facts of location found ,size,shape and other factors makes the most sense of all the other theories. Very logical
Thanks James, I really appreciated your comments !
This totally made my evening!
many thanks !
Brilliant. But, may I make a suggested modification: 1. the inserted wheel (the rotor) is shrunk to a pentagon the size of each side, perhaps 5 letters per side. 2. rotors are placed simultaneously on each side. This allows reading across the edge from one wheel to another. One may take a letter on the inner wheel, find the same letter on the outer wheel, then cross to a new face and continue the process several times, perhaps rotating wheels as one goes. This becomes a sort of ancient enigma machine with a very strong encryption (5^12 combos!). Even if the rotors are captured and the techniques are well known the rotors initial settings are still needed. If one held the rotor by its knob while shifting from one edge to the other, thus rotating the rotor, the device is absolutely uncrackable without modern computers. I _think_ if you always go until you are back on the original side, you just need to rotate backwards (or switch hands) to get back the original message, but that would require some experimentation. Wax in the center of the dodecahedreon would perhaps be good to keep the rotors from falling out, especially if a lathed notch was cut out in the rotor knob part that sticks into the center.
I have to say, in my mind you have absolutely solved the purpose of these devices. There should be the sound of thousands of historians slapping their heads in "why didn't I think of that?" amazement. Congratulations are certainly in order.
Michael, thanks very much for your comments on my theory. Your modification ideas are really interesting !
Much appreciated !
@@Matt.Geevan By the way, I see a number of comments about the icosohedron with people wondering how it fits with your theory. The icosohedron can also be use for encryption in exactly the same way. In the this method outlined above, the encryption is also just as strong or a little stronger (3^20 combos instead of 5^12).
I will also note the icosohedron is a dual of the dodecahedron. This means that the points of one correspond to the faces of the other. 12 points on an icosohedron, 20 on a dodecahedron.... In fact, if you take 20 appropriately sized equilateral triangles with punctures in their centers and fit them on the knobs of your device it will become an icosoheron. Also 12 pentagons with holes in the middle would fit on the icosohedron to build a dodecahedron. so with just a few small cut pieces of thin wood or card stock they are equivalent.
Absolutely brilliant work! Well done 👏🏻 I was just watching another video on the dodecahedron last night. This is by far the best theory I have heard so far. Good luck with testing it out on the field👍🏻
Thank you! Cheers!
Thank you. One off the bucket-list.
Cheers !
Bravo 👏A extremely well thought out hypothesis. If this is not the true purpose of the Dodecahedron then it is a waste
Thanks @PADARM !
Well, colour me impressed! This is such a well thought out solution to the mystery and the most compelling I've seen to date.
your comments are much appreciated !
This is an amazingly compelling theory, love it. Although from a security standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to rotate after every letter instead of word to obscure the spaces between words which could leave context clues in the message. Alternatively rotate after every word and encode the space after the word with it as one of the null characters. In the decoding step you know when to turn when a null/space shows up. Encrypted message would either be one continuous string with two extra characters or have spaces in random intervals that would throw off codebreakers expecting regular rotation cyphers.
I also really like the proposed sealing process, this ensures that the message can be easily decrypted only one time during the seal breaking and even if the message gets discovered or captured afterwards with the disk and wheels, its contents are relatively safe.
Also the flexibility in establishing private but overlapping communication channels with basically standardized parts is fantastic. A few other commenters mention that the hole distribution is not uniform between finds, but this is more a feature. Identical dodecahedrons will allow full channel communication between these two, but slight variations of the hole orientations allows channel splitting as long as the affected codewheels/diameters are sorted out for communication between the original two.
enjoyed your comments @realMohock, you really grasped what I was trying to convey ! You are of course correct in suggesting that it would be better to rotate after every letter, which would certainly improve the security of the system. I was just trying to keep the process simple, to facilitate 'back-checking' each word after encription and decryption. Really good idea of yours to include the spaces as part of the code also.
Thanks
Matt
It should be noted that Romans for the most part used SCRIPTIO CONTINUA, so there were no spaces nor interpuncts. Also even modern wheel systems (Enigma, Hagelin, Fialka) don't use spaces as that could affect frequency analysis.
Great video man and honestly the best and most logical answer I’ve seen to the mystery
Thanks @fatmatt1746 - I've just tried to follow the evidence.
Cheers
Matt
That's the most illogical use I've seen for the word "logical".
Fascinating and logical. Made perfect sense to me . Thanks for the video.
thanks @Valisk131 Glad you liked it!
Explain the logic of something supposedly Roman but never found in Rome or Italy. 130 in northern France area and 3 from Britain. One on the Silk Road with no holes on the road to China, it was gold. A 20 sided one without holes. Not necessarily found with military camps, this was overstated in the video, some in graves, many with hoards of coins.
Absolute genius! Spectacular job sir. Being intrigued by these objects for many years and to now understand their purpose is truly a certain kind of bliss. Thank you for what is nothing less than a gift to mankind!
Glad you enjoyed it Brian !
This is great! I have been curious about these objects for years and this seems to be the most plausible explanation yet!
much appreciated, Dave !
Very clever... very clever...
My biggest gripe here is that if this was a military secret, why have we found so many and in such diverse contexts? We've found these things carelessly thrown away with broken pottery. Nor would a military secret be a burial good. You'd give it to the new decoder, or melt it down so that spies couldn't recover it. I think we'd also expect to see it more evenly distributed across the Roman Empire. Surely a encryption system like this would have been very useful on the eastern border with Persia! The fact that we don't have any surviving records of them is not really a mystery that warrants an explanation, imo.
Also, this answer seems to lack a explanation for the icosahedron with its many tiny holes.
Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. This explanation was wickedly clever, so big props for that. Cheers from the other side of the pond!
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, @Imperiused ! I wasn't offering an explanation for the icosahedron, but I will consider your comments.
Cheers
Matt
What happens to the thing if its owner dies and he was the only one around who knows what its for? I would think it either gets confiscated by his replacement or else..
Maybe the system was abandoned
@@Deppel57 Nobody uses Nokias anymore : )
@@Deppel57 Most likely yes and replaced by another system.
This is by far the best theory I have seen. I can't fault your reasoning, well done👍
much appreciated Trevor !
As those decahedrons also occure here in Bavaria, I always wondered about their meaning.
I like this idea very much!
Respect for figuring that out!
Thank you very much Luckiw !
The obvious problem with your hypothesis is that there is no standard set of hole sizes in known Roman dodecahedrons (or for that matter in the size of the dodecahedrons). Standard sizes would be needed for the cryptographic scheme you describe to work.
You are correct Ernest - all we need to find are two Dodecahedrons that are alike enough to show that this theory could work.
Cheers
Matt
I was looking for a comment that would mention this, and here it is... You are absolutely correct and that's why I don't believe that the hypothesis presented in this video is correct. Saying "all we need to find are two Dodecahedrons that are alike" is all but admitting that this video is nothing more than wishful thinking, albeit quite clever wishful thinking. There are also several other problems with this hypothesis, but others in this comment section have addressed most of them.
@@Matt.Geevan I disagree. I would argue that very varied dodecahedrons are features of the system, not bugs. You would want as few identical ones as possible. Ideally you would want just one pair to be completely sure only your peer can decipher the message. One network should have as few participants as possible. A General would want to use one design of dodecahedron for communication with Rome, and anpother one for communication with other commanders. If the item is too standardized, the system looses reliability. The fact that all found dodecahedrons are completely different in shape supports the proposed theorey of encryption device very well. Even that 20-sided item that was found, with the tiny holes, could just be an even more complex iteration of the theory you put forward.
Imagin the other way around: If it was the case, that dodecahedrons were commonly found to be of identical shape, like types of pottery vessels, we might look simply at a decorative object of originally polished bronze. We would be more likely in candle holder land. That the opposite is the case, supports your theory.
I figured this question out a long time ago, the dodecahedron was used to play Forts & Fauns, the ancient Roman version of Dungeons & Dragons.
Kudos! excellent problem solving approach and delightfully clear explanation which gracefully covered so many details of the object and how it would work so well in your hypothesis - so many of the practical matters of its use for cryptography (resistance to compromise, need for rapid destruction in extremis, simplicity and robustness) fell into place as you proceeded, I found myself gleefully following your explanation by the end. Hope you get credit for “breaking the code” on this (publish a paper if you can, or do the equivalent with your video - and copyright it). Best.
A very ingenious and cohesive explanation, and hits all the points that need explaining. It stands out as a serious theory, as all others I have seen are seriously weak. Eg. if it was a gambling die, then why not found everywhere.
One issue I note with other explanation is that bronze was relatively expensive in Roman times, so items made for mundane uses are not likely to be metal. e.g. candle holders could be made out of clay. If the clay breaks just make a new one. Where there was a need for precision and durability, the military could command such an expense.
Also appreciate the references to Enigma and Gladiator :)
Thanks very much Bob for your comments !
That's a really good explanation of what these objects were made for (allegedly). It does all seem to fit the scant evidence we have about them. I think I'm convinced. However, in addition to these 'dodecahedrons' there have also been 'icosahedrons' found. Which are very similar, but have 20 sides, and don't appear to have different sized holes in the faces. They only seem to have a set of 4 .5mm-ish holes, with circles around them, arranged in a triangular fashion, with a hole in the centre, place on each of the 20 sides. The sides all seem to be slightly dished inwards as well. All the hole arrangements on all the faces, and all the holes themselves seem to be identical on all the faces (I believe???). If used in the manner you describe for the dodecahedrons, these Icosahedrons would not work as a) there are no through holes and b) all of the holes (blind) are identical in diameter (I believe????). What would your explanation for these be?
Thanks Alexander ! I really found your comments interesting. The icosahedron is probably a totally different subject.
Cheers
That's the most convincing explanation I've heard yet. Congratulations.
thanks very much Thomas !
I posted this on Paul Whitewick's channel before seeing yours. I agreee with you.
For the interested. I gave ChatGPT a description without context. I told it the object was being introduced in a novel i was writing and to guess its use.
Based off this and watching your video, my guess would be military use. Possibly ancient encryption and decryption device. This use would explain why there is few of them and no mentions of them in contemporary writing. This would be the case for items used for secret military use in modern times.
Below is the top 3 guesses by the GPT.
"1. Ancient or Alien Communication Device
Reasoning: Bronze is a durable metal often used in historical artifacts. The holes and knobs suggest it could be used to transmit or amplify sound or light. As a communication device, it could have been designed to last and withstand various conditions.
2. Scientific Instrument or Measuring Device
Reasoning: Bronze is resistant to corrosion, making it ideal for precision instruments that need to endure environmental factors. The holes of varying sizes could be part of a system for measuring sound frequencies, fluid flow, or light refraction.
3. Puzzle or Locking Mechanism
Reasoning: The solid construction of bronze adds to the durability and complexity of a puzzle or locking mechanism. The knobs might need to be turned or pressed in a specific sequence to align the holes correctly, functioning as a key to a larger, more intricate lock or device."
Thanks CoffeWorker - a really interesting reply !
An AI programme does not "reason".
Therefore, all these "conclusions" are bound to be flawed to begin with.
@@frontenac5083 I did not say it reasons, but i do agree with you being flawed. Fortunately, I can reason but also my conclusions are always bound to be flawed. So is yours.
The nice thing though, AI is really good and recognizing pattern in our language. So utilizing its very expansive neural network and its ability to more reasonably guess which words most likely come next after the detailed description, me as the reasoning body have a stronger starting position in my logic than without.
You should bever let your biases limit you, its ok to explore things that you may think are flawed, as long as you bring your power of reasoning with you.
Have a nice day.
PS: the vast majority of people reasoned its for knitting.....The number one guess by AI is a communication device. Matt Geevans guess is a form of communication. I also agree its most likely designed for use in communications. So, where does that leave the vast majority of people who were allowed context into their reasoning?
What i took from AI, was that the knobs, and holes are intentional and necessary. The choice of material is a huge take away. The complexity and skill required in design. From contextual facts of locations and no mention in writings means it was limited to its users and most likely expensive to make. From here we can begin to reason its use.
I like your analysis and find it compelling. The military usage makes a lot of sense. If the Roman church had used these I would expect some to turn up in Vatican or cathedral archives.
Thanks very much, William - yes, that's a really interesting point !
By jove I believe you've cracked it/ Well done!
your comments are appreciated @davejob630, I just tried to follow the facts
LOL!
This is the only theory I have ever seen elaborated on and it's very convincing. Well done. It could be regarded as an early fore-runner of an Enigma machine. The only complication I can think of (although I don't think it invalidates your theory), is that there are also examples of similarly constructed icosahedrons, which have triangular sides each of which has a hole in the middle surrounded by a triangular arrangement of three holes. Some of these central holes are very small indeed and don't seem to have any variation in size. Maybe these icosahedrons had a completely different use from the dodecahedrons, but do you think there is any way they could be incorporated into your cryptography theory, or can you think of any other explanation?
thanks @random_person347 your question which is really interesting !
I don't think that the icosahedrons have anything to do with my coding system theory, because of their difficulty in manufacture, they would only offer a 'modulo 3' shift instead of the 'modulo 5' shift that the Dodecahedron offers, and I agree with you that the icosahedrons had a totally different use.
Cheers
Matt
The main objection to your theory I can think of, as far as I know, is that there might be no uniformity between the examples that have been found in terms of the sizes of holes. Is it possible to check this from information that is publicly available?
Unfortunately, this is information that I've not been able to obtain as the sources of detailed measurements are probably not available to the general public for some reason.
Very heterodox use of the word "convincing".
Fascinating and useable! It may not have gone all the way around the Roman Empire depending on when it was developed, and possibly by whom. One set of Roman commanders might have been made familiar with the method with others, further from Rome might have found it “too difficult, I’ll just trust my runners”, or whatever they learned as young commanders. Stodgy happens! Bigger examples might be for the bosses with poorer eyesight!😊
Thanks very much for your reply, Wanda!
This is amazing information. Thank You for your brilliance !
Many thanks for your kind comments, Deborah !
This makes more sense than some of the other theories l have seen.
Thanks for your reply Catherine !
Very convincing. Makes perfect sense. Congratulations on your discovery!
Thanks Ede
This theory is a very good reason to support the fact that so feew of these have been found. What a GREAT way to get kids to understand very cryproc ciphers. I really desire to make one for my grandbabies... oh, the possibilities are endless
Thanks for your reply !
Very plausible, and kudos for the explanation - interestingly, modern war codes (including Enigma) were split into 5-letter groups for ease of dissemination. Now one must find out why this mechanism was not universally used throughout the Roman empire - including Italy too. By geographic location of their findings, perhaps it was a device used against the Romans, not by them...
thanks very much for your comments Steven.
Well done! This is both logical and practical - the very best solution that I have heard, The demonstration was well done and extremely clear, so many thanks for that!
Best regards, and congratulations!
many thanks for your comments !
A very convincing theory. It sneaks ahead of the knitting/rope/ intricate jewelry theory. Maybe it was a type of early multi-tool? Who knows? But you go to the top of the list with your theory for sure. Glad that there are some clever people out there giving things like this some serious thought. My theory was that it is the ideal object to throw at somebody's head if they are annoying you, lol! Hopefully archaeological evidence will one day prove you right.
Thank you, much appreciated, Colin !
This seems to fit everything. My previous go-to explanation was a religious rite, but that still left the hole of why it wasn't pictured with priests and other notables. If it was an enigma machine, that makes sense.
much appreciated !
Absolutely fascinating! Well done Matt!
More to come!
Absolutely marvellous, congratulations on your well researched, amazingly rationalised, astonishing realised discovery . .amazing...Absolutely fantastic.
Congratulations
Many thanks for your kind comments Ernie - I'm glad you enjoyed it !
Cheers
Matt
Discovery?
Did I miss something?
Very Impressive presentation. I am persuaded that this was the use of these objects. Thank You.
Thank you @lynwood7205
The explanation was interesting and the intuition that led you to develop this theory was brilliant and ingenious. In Italy they tell us that engineers have little imagination but you are proof that we are not all like that. I have a little difficulty imagining the lost wax pattern used to create the dodecahedron but I know that European craftsmen of the 1st century BC were capable of reproducing wonders in copper alloy
Your reply is much appreciated @laurencedarabia2000 Thanks !
Definitely the best theory I’ve seen
Many thanks Kevin !
Until now the best proposion what has possibly been used for.
Much appreciated Andy ! Thanks for your comments
It would appear to be an early version of the Vigenère cipher, which "rotates" the cipher every character, instead of every word. I encourage you to look up the Vigenère cipher, as it is very interesting reading.
yes thanks Ron ! You are correct ! I read all about the Vigenere cipher some years ago in Simon Singh's 'The Code Book'
marvellous reading !
Cheers
A very interesting hypothesis. It covers all the facts that I've heard regarding the dodecahedra. The one stretch is the idea that it was never documented. Since most enciphering systems have been described at one time or another, the conclusion that the secret was kept for this one system seems weak, especially if it was used by multiple organizations.
That's indeed a stretch, but the bigger stretch is that no two are alike, which they would have to be in order for this hypothesis to work. It's a clever idea, but it just doesn't match reality.
@@TheJCMorgan I think that if you consider it, the probability of recovering matching pairs is fairly scant. Still, a very good point.
37:33 - A very interesting analysis. I'd say the missing element is that the dodecahedrons found were of various sizes and not really standardized - if it is found that dodecahedrons are of specific sizes, and that locations they are found correspond to command and deployment, that might close this hole.
The various sizes would have been issued with appropriate wheel sizes, and perhaps it's more about the circles around the hole on the side that indicates the origin. We could get even more complex with a multi wheel use per message. By far this is the most plausible explanation I have seen. I agree that perhaps different crafters of this device may have intended it for use at specific locations, and because of secrecy there was no " standard size" only a standard code wheel which could be replaced.
If his decoder theory is correct then only two had to match, the ones issuing orders and the one receiving them
Exactly Dagroovi ! Thank you
you are correct Maggs - we only have to find two which are the same.
@@Dagroovi I disagree, no two match which means that this hypothesis is incorrect unless there are several matching pairs or sets discovered, which seems unlikely.
Amazingly impressive reasoning
Thanks John !
Whether it's these things, or the Great Pyramid, no matter what mystery it is; there's always going to be some tradie or engineer nobody ever heard of who figured it out.
Absolutely great - a very convincing solution to that riddle....
Thank you @MrFrankie180
Ingenious. Congratulations.
Thank you very much!
Absolutely brilliant.Well deciphered.
Much appreciated Ashley !
Brilliant explanation, thank you
Glad you liked it @Hadwyn !
Bravo! I only recently have read of the dodecahedron device. Yours seems like a very good explanation of what it could have been used for. I particularly find this interesting as I was once a military cryptograph operator. Cheers
thanks for you reply Mike - it sounds like you have been in some interesting situations !
Thank You very much for such.an informative video, just subscribed. Keep up the Good Work!
Your comments are appreciated, Paul !
this is a very, very compelling suggestion.
many thanks for your reply !
Super interesting hypothesis. However it has its problems:
- manufacturing would have implied critical dimensions
- from the specimens found there is huge variability in hole and knob dimensions
- overall sizes themselves vary a lot, recently a huge one was found which totally defeats the purported purpose.
- not sure how the icosahedron specimen from Germany could fit
- such an excellent and advanced encryption system would have hardly been lost, remember there is continuity of the state up until the XV century... or even up to today if you count the church.
- too advanced for the era, military technologies tend to advance together with their counter technology, be it armour vs antiarmour , aircraft vs antiarcraft, comms vs comint, encryption vs cryptanalisis... and such a device would be secure well into WWI.
- SUPER important, the dodecahedron (the only physical evidence) would be almost superfluous, just to represent the key, yet the bulkier and most size critical part. That implies too much speculation for too little evidence with a rather capricious connection between the two
- no known wooden tablet with such characteristics exists despite thousands being found (admittedly not resistant to time and easily destructible)
- two additional characters forced there when the Romans did not use space when writing nor even had a symbol for zero/nulla, it is really an extraneous concept.
So, I really don't think it is plausible. Although it is a great attempt that I applaud. And it definitely could work in historical fiction, I wouldn't be surprised if your idea ends up embedded in a book or a movie some day!
Many thanks for your comments - very interesting points !
Impressive ! Thank you !
Cheers !
congratulations you have covered all the bases. At least all that I have ever heard of. You are very convincing indeed. Again congratulations.
Thanks very much for your comments Glenn !
I watched Simon Whistler bang on for ages about how no one knows what these things were.
And I believed him, until now!
Well done sir, well done!
Much appreciated James !
17:55 This device was known as nemorosa orbis (woody disk) , the ancient predecessor of the floppy disk
Looks like some of them took their secrets to grave. Well done.
Thanks ! @capsual2015
Well done mate, brilliant bit of deduction...
Thanks very much Zen !
Well done! Now all you need are the cypher wheels and pegs.
The intro with the Gladiator wheat field & Dead can Dance spoils the ending of the film EVERY TIME!
If you don't want to know, don't scroll down...
First, find a painting called "The Harvesters".
It's an oil painting on wood completed by Pieter Bruegel the Elder in 1565. It depicts the harvest time set in a landscape, in the months of July and August or late summer.
Notice the wheat? Look how tall it is!
It wasn't until the "green revolution" in the 1950's that we developed high yield, much shorter wheat.
Shorter wheat meant less damage from wind & rain and the yeild per acre went up too.
So Romans ambling through hip height wheat mever happened.
I would say the case for using it as a wax seal is pretty solid at this point. The wax traces combined with the "knobs" to keep it a fixed distance from the surface make for a good case. It would also not be a wax seal for an individual as it is too generic. As such, I would also say it is highly likely to be used an authentication device. The case for your particular usage as encryption is less strong. There have never been any such letter wheels. That would imply that they were either made from flimsy material and have degraded, or they never existed.... If they were made from flimsy material, they wouldn't have stood up for their intended usage over time. Having said that, there is enough information present to use any number of encryption systems that could be used with the information present on only the dodecahedron and would not require the other party to have one of the exact same size and circular patterns. I would envision that if you were going to get a system, you would purchase several (2-?) dodecahedrons at a time. So finding some identical ones would provide some support for that theory. However, one could imagine that a craftsman would make a bunch at the same time, using the same setup (tooling?). Another possible theory is that the Dodecahedron was used as a counting device. Let's say you were to count out a number of coins, you would rotate the dodecahedron for let's say every 10 coins counted. You would then then place the coins in the box, and wax seal it with the final count.
The larger packages could then be stored/shipped with the seal intact.
Matt Geevan Veni Vidi Vici. Well done Sir. 👏
Thanks for your feedback John ! Much appreciated
Probably the best explanation thus far. However until the corresponding decoder wheels are found then it is just a theory. Hopefully they were bronze as well.
Its another idea to chuck on the theory pile. I applaud the hands on approach, well done. However, despite the fact it is well thought out, I dont think it is a closed case yet.
Congratulations! Great job! ❤
One of dodecahedrons is found in Serbia in 2006. If dating of these instruments are between 2. and 4. century it make sense that there was no need for them in central and eastern parts of empire, because these regions were extra safe. It was period of
Illyrian emperors, military emperors and 18 of them were from now days Serbia territory, something like Prussia was for Germany much later, and for example, most of legions in empire were stationed in Balkans, 10 of them, mostly I think because it's central position. There is only one question, why Romans stopped using dodecahedrons, and what replaced it as decipher tool?
Cuz soon after the end 4th and begining of 5th century western Roman Empire starts its declining and final fall.
Thanks for the information, which is very useful !
Great theory regarding an interesting question. Very compelling! Thanks for your work and research on this. Hope you get due credit!
Thanks for your kind reply, Steven !
That idea system inherently works, that's something to admit. So now knowing that very possible solution, the search for additional prove may begin, I'm very curious. If some texts get into focus, that mention encryption tools, or remains of such a wax seal appear - or let some remains of the wheels have survived close to a new finding - whatever, it wouldn't take much to PROVE the theory to a very safe level of confidence. I think it's obviously harder to exclude that use for sure.
Thanks very much for your reply, Brian !
Thanks Brian - yes I don't think it would take much if the archaeologists knew what to look for.
A good explaination of this thing but I'm not convinced. Makes sense except that I'm not sure why a difficult to manufacture bulky bronze device with different size holes is needed. You could achieve the same effect with a peg in the larger plain wheel or a smaller, flat peg board and using the same diameter peg & hole combination in the middle for all coded wheels. This way you wouldn't be limited to only 12 cypher wheels, you could have a unique code wheel for each agent with a partner available at one or possibly more authorised communication centres. All that you need to know is who the message comes from or is intended for to identify which wheel to use. Even without the bronze dodecahedron you could decode any message so long as you knew which code wheel had been used to encrypt it and you had a copy to hand.
This is a very elegant and plausible use for the dodecahedrons, given the locations where they have been found. It would be good to find some military training documents confirming this possible use.
thanks for your comment David - As you perhaps saw near the end of my video, I don't think that we will find any military training documents because the whole idea was that it had to remain a secret from enemies and codebreakers, and for as long as possible, hence there is no written documents or drawings of the object.
I'm not sure you're agreeing with most dictionaries as to the definition of the word "plausible".
I think the only possible counter to this theory, is whether the dodecahedrons actually had matching sizes of holes that were decorated similarly.
While not necessarily an impediment to your theory, the fact that there are dodecahedrons of differing sizes known to exist would seem to indicate an imcompatibility.
To my knowledge, they havent been studied to that sort of exactness.
It would require checking to make sure that at least two opposite sides, had an exact match with another dodecahedron in sizes of holes, number and size of rings around those holes, if not relations to the other ten holes.
This is definitely an ingenuous and workable theory, but I'm still skeptical.
yes you are correct frenchfriar, I don't think any work has been done to measure and categorise all the dodecahedrons already found
The Enigma cypher machine was originally marketed in the early 1920s as a means for encrypting commercial messages - the German military didn't take it up till later.
Ì'd never heard about this before, so thanks Matt. Cheers 🍻!
many thanks @timeandnourishment1961 ! I did think of using this fact in my video, but I thought it would make my first video even longer !
I may use it in a follow up video along with a picture I took at
Bletchley Park of one of the Enigma machines a couple of years back, to reply to some of the comments I have received.
Which is why the Enigma machines, and presumably the dodecahedron, are not particularly rare. The machine is a generic tool, the power of the encryption comes from an ever changing set of code wheels, dictated by a secret code book.
Thanks @i0i
Very interesting and plausible.
Glad you enjoyed it
I really like this explanation, as it makes sense given the physical evidence we have. The only issue I can see would be to detail a system of key distribution, which is the perennial problem in all cipher systems.
As you can see from the video, there is no key to distribute !
That is one of the advantages of the system.
Cheers
Matt
what about the ones found without holes in the center of each face?
I can only find pictures of one without holes. Judging by the picture I'd say all the knobs were different sizes, so you could still use a dodecahedron in the way described in the video, but picking the right decoding wheels would be done by the size and location of the knobs not the central hole.
thanks for your reply - I think that the holes were drilled 'as and when' to suit the requirements of the communication system.
@@Matt.Geevan Oh, right!
That clarifies this, then.
One of the better demonstrations I've seen as to what could be the purpose of these objects.
much appreciated !
Now, all we have to do is find an original cipher wheel!
It's possible.. if they were made from the same material. 🤔
Good luck with that....
Fascinating! I was thinking the dodecahedron to be a whorl for a set of 6 tapered drop spindles for drafting threads of different weight!
Thanks for your reply ! I believe that everyone should be entitled to their own opinions on the subject.
The History Channel: It's a star map made by ancient aliens!
Hey Matt, really liked the video and just wanted to add one or the other idea or thought. First of all your theory requires that all Dodecahedrons involed in the information chain across an entire province/Legion got to be identical in shape and size for it to work and i guess a complete kit do code and decode would consist of twelve wooden wheels. I would also imagine that certain kinds of messages or orders would've required a higher level of authentification to prevent forgery or abuse of the system by subordinates. I could imagine that those kind of coded messages woudld've had added ringseals either on the waxknob or in paint of the coded textletter itself. I have to add that your argument, concerning the quite limited area of the objects being found compared to the size of the roman empire was not convincing to me. I agree that the nature of the landscape in north eastern provinces were particularly challenging and dangerous for messengers, but the same can be said for messengers in the far eastern provinces like Syria where cities like Dura Europos and its roadways were constantly under threat by the Parthians and local bandits. Bastions in those provinces were few and faar between so an encrypted messeging system would've been as useful or neccessary as in Briton or Gaul.
thanks very much for your detailed reply, yallah - yes, a complete set of coded wheels could be given to a station, but only if the leader of the communication group required it. I like your idea of the addition of the ringseal, which is perfectly possible, but this of course would give the information as to who sent the message.
Thanks
Matt
Brilliant!
Thanks @robertdevos7
Thanks! Had you written the Da Vinci Code it would have been _really_ interesting!
Thanks for the idea Mats - they always says that there's a good book in everyone !