The Enigma of the Roman Dodecahedron Decoding Part 3
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- Watch the Full Video at :- • The Enigma of the Roma...
Are you interested in codes and ciphers?
Then try the Dodecahedron Challenge
Roman Discoveries
Roman Dodecahedron Mystery Solved
A very ingenious explanation. I like the extra encryption added by turning after each successive word. All you need to prove the hypothesis is any surviving wooden code wheel or even a written message that approximates a coded sentence. Great work. Congrats!
Thanks very much for your reply - here is the codewheel evidence you require :-
th-cam.com/video/w87I-sRGtDY/w-d-xo.html
Cheers
Matt
Absolutely brilliant thank you,for using your brilliant brain.
Glad you liked it!
Makes more sense than thinking it's a knitting device. I'd be interested in seeing corroborating evidence though.
Many thanks for your comments and interest, the evidence is in the full version at around 29 minutes
th-cam.com/video/vBDgmE3d0aw/w-d-xo.html
Best Regards
Does it?
Thanks for your reply - please see :-
th-cam.com/video/w87I-sRGtDY/w-d-xo.html
for the supporting evidence !
Intriguing … I think the platext wheel needs to have the letter sequence scrambled also. Otherwise someone could break the code by guessing the first word is “hail”. They would then have located those 4 letters on the code wheel. (O is really an H)The next word would still have those 4 letters but now they translate into h+5, A+5,i+5,L+5 or the letters m,f,n,q. An o decodes into H in the first word, M in the 2nd word, R in the 3rd word, etc
Thanks Doug, your insight is very clever !
Best theory yet. Way better than a knitting tool.
Thanks Brian !
To me, the spherical edges of the dodecahedron fit more the theory of a knitting tool, since spheres retains a (metallic) thread better. Different-sized bores might be used to regulate the actual diameter of the fabric.
If those edges were just a positioning tool for a crypto machine, they would just pins, not spheres.
Some of found dodecahedrons have really large spheric edges, which would make no sense as a positioning tool.
Caesar's cipher would have much easier to implement with a paper table showing the match between letters and trasposed letters. Paper costs nothing, it's easy to replicate, it's simple to destroy to prevent any enemy from seizing it and you can use it to store unlimited ciphers, not just 12.
An icosahedron was also found, with similar spherical edges, but no holes. That cannot be a fancy kind of dice, as same number of dice-like dots are on all faces (precisely: 4 dots). dots are just to adornate it.
I think that icosahedron is another knitting device, perhaps to build another kind of metallic fabric or a rope.
Romans were obsessed by standardization. If that was a device to make a standard kind of rope or fabric, it would certainly make sense to make it in durable bronze, rather than in cheaper wood.
@@marcobeardo985 Thanks Marco ! Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions on what the dodecahedron was used for. If you watched my part 2 Video, you will see that the Caesar Shift Cipher 'falls down' to a codebreaker using the 'brute force' technique, as he only has to try the 22 different combinations to crack the code.
I'm afraid that I can't really see how the icosahedron was used for knitting.
The dodecahedron would have been a really expensive knitting device, but an icosahedron would have been an astronomically expensive knitting device.
Clearly, it's all about opinions, including mine.
Its cost must have been astronomical, so perhaps you're right that knitting would not justify it. Maybe, something related to the army would have justified the use of durable (and expensive!) bronze. Like a tool for making ropes: that would have been extremely important on battle field or to build large stone buildings.
Caesar's cipher is considered extremely weak nowadays, but imagine that it was used by soldiers and would unlikely be analyzed by some really educated person. So, it was good enough to dispatch fast orders. The only precaution would have been to change frequently the substitution rule for chars. More or less, like German army did with Enigma, by changing regularly the connections between rotors.
A very interesting idea! The "turning" of the wheel at the end of the word would help a lot against trying to decode by assigning each symbol a letter (if you guess that the first word is HAIL you got 4 letters converted and so on...) In fact, your system remidns me of the enigma machine, with several rings and jumping a step after each letter. Good job!
The enigma was the first thing that came into my mind as well. The enigma was based on code books with the code of the day and moving parts, With the idea presented in this video, the code books would be replaced by the Dodecahedrons.
I'm very sure though that if this was their real purpose there would be some reference in some military handbook or other ancient literature...
Thanks @uweinhamburg - Yes, as you can imagine, coding and ciphers were in their infancy, this simple idea requires no day code, key, keyword or password to send and receive messages.
I don't think any drawings or manuals explaining 'how to use' were made of the system because it was a secret messaging system, and had to remain a secret from as many people as possible for as long as possible.
Did you see my video comparing my theory to the Enigma Machine ?
th-cam.com/video/Ds_qb-76-Mk/w-d-xo.html
Cheers
Matt
@uweinhamburg there actually are. I've read phrases that made little sense at the time like "the message used was my personal code". And I wondered what was meant. There are still questions. Some dodecahedrons don't have the knobs. Some are too tiny to be usefully as a code wheel holder. And the baseball sized are overkill.
@@capnbilll2913 perhaps the dodecahedrons existed as rope weaving alternative back up solution when mass produced cheap ropes from Rome were not available. Then someone figured out they can make good enigma machines.
Thanks ! did you see my video comparing my theory to the Enigma Machine?
th-cam.com/video/Ds_qb-76-Mk/w-d-xo.html
have any wax seals like your one ever been found
Hi @drumchapelboy, many thanks for watching my video and commenting. To answer your question, I don't believe that any wax seals have been found from the Roman period. If anyone can correct me on this please reply.
Thanks !
Matt
Obviously not, as they never existed.
The Roman metalworkers would have had no trouble in manufacturing the coding discs from a copper alloy and engraving the letters . Not aware that any have been recovered though. Stiff leather could possibly have been used or even thick paper.cardboard. Your solution is , in my opinion, the right one ,simply because making the thing in the first place is so difficult and expensive that it had to be state funded. Its use had to be for a critical process, Candleholder or knittingdolly is so stupid.
Thanks very much for your comments Jonviol .
Brilliant stuff. This makes so much sense .
Thanks !
You're on mushrooms, right?
@@frontenac5083 No, only on the left ,usually with a dash of virgin olive oil and pre prepped Cajun seasoning from Aldi. Gorgeous taste.
@@frontenac5083 Yes, but prefer left , sorry to disappoint .
I would guess A Roman general would have had many identical dodecahedrons made for use by all his outposts. Otherwise complications arise with the need to create,issue,and track multiple sized code wheels. Are any dodecahedrons found in different outposts identical? (If so,this is another piece of evidence confirming your theory).
Also, though probably not necessary for short messages with inadequate number of letters to break the code, it would be easy to double scramble the letters by flipping the code wheel upside down and repeat the encryption with the letters on the back of the code wheel.
Are dodecahedrons found buried with lots of money a different size than the ones found in military outposts? (Merchants don’t need a standard size dodecahedron as long as their trading partners scribe their own code wheels with the same letters. The bronze decoder looks expensive and therefore used for life with others having their own different sized dodecahedrons).
Really nice idea flipping the code wheel, Doug - well done !
Fascinating stuff!! I t would be so cool to go back in time to see if its true! This is a very clever system!
Thanks - yes, it would be great even for just a short time !
I recently saw a TH-cam video using the dodecahedron to make plaited decorative chains using silver wire. This seems a more likely explanation as a) examples of similar Roman jewellery have been found b) it explains why the opposite holes are slightly different sizes to reduce the diameter of the chain size.
Thanks Derek, that's great ! Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But here is my evidence:-
th-cam.com/video/w87I-sRGtDY/w-d-xo.html
The dodecahedra do not exhibit signs of wear or precious metal deposits, which they would have from being repeatedly scraped by wire, but they often have traces of wax on them - from making the seal, perhaps? I think they are too labour intensive to be candle holders - a ball of clay or a small pot of damp earth or sand would serve the same function.
so cool
Thanks for your comment !
perhaps not have the dog in the room while recording?
thanks @reyalPRON I will remember this for my next video !
@@Matt.Geevan i always thought those had a coding use. I thought they were used to measure length of a string with knots on them. wound around the dodecahedron in a fixed set of patterns. This is a very interesting take. Have any discs been found anywhere?
@@reyalPRON thanks for your reply. I don't think that any discs have been found as yet, but as mentioned in my full version video, the discs were made of wood so that they could easily and quickly be destroyed by burning if necessary, so that the system could be kept secure and secret. As you may be aware, the Vindolanda Tablets found near Hadrian's Wall were almost overlooked as being just piles of charred remains of burnt wood.
Cheers
Matt
I can imagine HQ has all the code wheels and his 3 commanders have the code wheels for their private communication to HQ, and all commands have the code wheel for general distribution to all 3 commanders.
Absolutely Doug ! You nailed it !
Pretty certain , as far as logic holds up that is, no spigots are needed in the code wheels - just discs with the correct centre hold diameter . Once a message is delivered the receiver simply identifies which code wheel to use by placing it over the wax impression and locating the wax spigot into a matching code disc centre hole . This means that the code discs are easy to store flat. Probably made from stiffened pigskin , hot pressed with urine and salt , easy to cut and disposable after use just like the message itself ,Unlikely that a cartridge was used just a folded envelope or sheet with a wax seal on the join. Also most unlikely that any remnants will be found to prove your ideas but its obviously the right one . Romans had vellum and papyrus to write on and wax was used on wooden surfaces to inscribe into . Just my ideas. Jonathan Uk
your comments are much appreciated, Jonathan.
Some people really like to speculate!
many thanks @angelzipp
Have you been able to view my Part 4 which deals with the key answers to the key questions ? ( th-cam.com/video/mILHAi8z1ec/w-d-xo.html )
or the full version ( th-cam.com/video/vBDgmE3d0aw/w-d-xo.html ) at about 29 mins ?
Yes, this makes the most sense. I truly believe this is the answer! Great explanation. Maybe the actual message was on a scroll or folded piece of parchment. but the method stay the same. the advance the wheel after every word is clever, but with this scheme, reasonable to assume. I would think this is done by the lost wax process with two metal patterns. How many dodecahedrons have been found? Since it's coding equipment, likely few. I would think that more would be found if this is NOT such gear
Thanks for your comments and reply @fixitlater. I believe that 33 dodecahedrons or fragments have been found in the UK and about 130 have been found worldwide
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!
So, you don't even know how many of these were found (nor could you be bothered to google the answer), yet you "believe this is the answer".
Right.
As a complete lay person I am intrigued by your contribution to debate about this artefact. And these are just my thoughts in response which are not at all meant to be derogatory.
You have made a plausible demonstration that this artefact can work the way you suggest. However, that is not a proof that this was its actual purpose. To use a simpler example: It can be demonstrated beyond doubt that a stick can be used to make reliable and repeatable measurements. But it is a logical error to conclude from this that sticks exist for measuring. Despite the ingeniousness of your suggestion, this is still a case of fitting the object to the theory. A different object could also make a similar encryption process work. You have tailored your encryption methodology to this object, but that doesn't demonstrate causality.
The location of finds that you present is supportively suggestive, but circumstantial. Correlation is not confirmation as is often said.
The complexity of fit between the artefact and your process makes it worthy of consideration in my view. Experimental archeology is used to throw light on the problem of movement of great stones for example. But an experimental archeologist can't demonstrate a good idea and then wait for others to prove them wrong. There are competing ideas about, and because a modern reconstruction works does not prove that is how the ancients did it.
I think your call for anyone who knows of the existence of the appropriate boards to get in touch is very appropriate. But I suspect you will have to do your own research. That will be a lot of hard work I imagine.
I found your presentation very interesting. Good luck with it all.
Thanks very much for your reply, Lawrie ! There is some excellent advice here for me to consider.
Best Regards
Matt
here is some evidence I have found:-
th-cam.com/video/w87I-sRGtDY/w-d-xo.html
@@Matt.Geevan Thanks for the link. I commented there.
that is realy intersting if its not this its what i use to think it was as long as there has been women there has all ways been a need for point less things that look nice to put on a shelf
Thank you for your reply !
Please look at the FULL VERSION of this video which includes a Challenge !
th-cam.com/video/vBDgmE3d0aw/w-d-xo.html
I have always been fascinated by coding and decoding and the intellect of those who produce it. Excellent job!
Many thanks for your comment !