A good reminder for me to pick Homer up. I've gotten familiar with The Iliad and The Odyssey during secondary school, but want to explore Homer's work a bit more
+Marieke Mills They're wonderful! I keep meaning to go back and read them in full (the last time I did was probably 15 years ago) but there's just so much other good stuff to read, too!
Oral poetry is still alive in non Anglo ruled/born nations! I'm Aussie but my parents country/culture has a very high regard to it, and we have poets at almost every significant part of life: birth, weddings, and death.
There are some good podcasts with lots more info about, not only Homer, but the whole Epic Cycle and the Greek dramas that go along with it. My favorite is Doug Metzger's Literature and History podcast; I believe Doug is a Prof at UC Davis. Doug's podcast is great and he's been taking us through much of the ancient literature and not just that from ancient Greece. Trojan War: The Podcast with Jeff Wright is also very good, he begins at the beginning and tells about Zeus throwing a wedding party and Eris delivering the apple of discord that begins the whole miserable thing. In each subsequent podcast Wright tells the story of the war in segments with his own commentary at the end of each podcast. The Ancient Greece Podcast is one that I hear good stuff about, though frankly have only found time to listen to one episode because I've been busy. Anyway, I'm happy to have found your TH-cam channel, cause I dig this kinda stuff.
Nice video! I knew the "Homeric question(s)" was a thing, but before I watched this video I was leaning toward thinking he existed and that he basically wrote the Iliad and Odyssey as we know them today. Now I'm leaning toward neither of those being true. Which makes me a little sad, but better to know the truth. :)
+Paul Kennedy I know exactly what you mean! In my heart, I still prefer the story of the blind old man, wandering ancient Greece, singing his songs every night in the city center to a mystified public. The truth is fascinating as well, and I'm glad I read more into it, but it does make me feel, as Coleridge wrote so eloquently, "a sadder and a wiser man".
The Illiad and The Odyssey are such huge books with thousands of lines, all with the same distinctive style so I would guess it may well be one person.
Homer wasn't bind (as some people claim that the name implies). Omiros Όμηρος) means held captive i.e., held as security that a certain treaty will be adhered to, a practice exercised as late as the 1800's between waring parties. Aparently, he was held captive as security in Smyrna (present day Izmir).
Interesting side note: the Doomsday Book lists an ancient name of (England) as ~Troijugunae (sp?) Which translates to "Troy-born" ... Think "tin isles" in Herodotos, etc. Check Otto Jespersen if interested. Just another misc piece of a puzzle which may never be resolved.
There was writing well before the Trojan war - Linear B and Linear A before that. You don'r sudenly develop the jewel that is Homeric Greek. Homer left his rapsodies in the cities he visited, surely written. on paper made from palm leaves (phenix) hence Phenician. Not letters by the Phoenitians whom didn't have vowels, hence no alphabet.
You could read either, as they are very different stories. The Iliad takes place first in the timeline, so it's generally considered to be the first book. But if the Odyssey sound more interesting to you, you certainly could start there without worrying about missing much.
Is it important if Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey ? Are the plays, thought to be by Shakespeare, any less great if they aren't by him ? In my opinion it's irrelevant. The play's (poem's) the thing.
I’m in the pool of thinking that the war was real and happened closer to our time, how many people died in world war 1, seriously the only thing documented more then war in history is what I would like to know. I believe the war was real, the heroes and kings and the only reason is how much information do we have about war and getting better at it vs every thing related to preserving life.
I recently read both these for the first time in the penguin clothbound classics, translated by E.V. Rieu and loved them - easy to read and follow (prose). I also read translations by Robert Fagles, also by penguin (verse) of both and they are a joy also. Would recommend either.
African Griots, who had fantastic memories and were considered to be historians, were not mentioned. There's an Egyptian story about a general that tricked a King. A story that's similar to the Trojan horse but the soldiers were hidden in huge baskets. A fake tribute. The story was obviously changed for dramatic effect.
Illiade & Odissey WAS WRITTEN BY SERBIAN WRITER MOMIR whose name greeks wrongly spelled HOMER. Both books were translated from Old Serbian language to Old Greek language by Greek King PIZISTRAT who payed translators to translate book from Old Serbian to Old Greek language in 5th century b.c. Main translator was ONAMAKRIT who was, as Pizistrat son found out, adding thing that were not in original Serbian text and that is why PIZISTRAT fired ONAMAKRIT, and this incident was written down that is how we know about it today. In early 17 century Vatikan started a political propaganda gow Serbs are not natives and came to balkan in 7th century a.c.(WHICH IS A LIE) and Vatican discumunicated catholic priest Mauro Orbini for writing a truth in a book KINGDOM OF SLAVS where he wrote that in past all Salvs called themselves SERBS and that they are natives on balkan thousand years before ancestora of greeks-semitic-huritic Ahaians & Danaians came to Balkan or GRETIA- the land named after Serbian warrior class Greti/Geti/Goti (named after serbian verb Greti-to go, as warrior class which goes away to war in compariaon to Borci-fighters who stay in their home town and greeks sound B was written as D so Borci became in greek writing Dorci/Dorians, so Spartans were original Borci/Dorians who came to peoponez with leader of second Aryan campagne SERBO MAKERIDOV; Aryans named after Serbian pagan god of hunting Arion/Arey/Jarilo which was copied by Greeks into Ares god of war) so GRETI are Serbian warrior class living in Serbia/Gretia where they were majority as "greeks"/HELLENS only lived in bigger cities. So stories of MOMIR/"HOMER" were stories of SERBIAN FOLKLORE and have nothing to do with muslims, a part of muslim Serbs just accepted islam in time of Ottoman conquest of balkan. But imoprtant thing is that in time of TROYAN WAR "Greeks"/Hellens were not formed yet as ancestors of Hellens-Danaians, Ahaians came to balkan in 1500b.c. and in 900b.c the Hellenic nation was formed out of Danaians+Ahaians+Ethiopians Africans mixing with SERBIAN TRIBES Pelazgi named aftet serbian pagan goddess PELA, Serbian tribe Peloni named after serbian pagan god POLON (hellens copied him into Apolon), Serbian tribe ILLYRIANS named after serbian pagan god ILLIYA, Serbian tribe RASSENI/RASHANI/T-RACHANS named aftet serbian pagan goddess REASSA/RASSA/REA/GEA/GAJA/GAIA and so on... So Homer real name was MOMIR and original language of ILLIADE ODISSEY & ENEIDE was Old SERBIAN LANGUAGE. That is why in archeological dig in TEFTAR, Romania they found The Oldest Writting in OLD SERBIAN LANGUAGE dated to 5700b.c. with inscription:" Grandfather, son of your aon wants a country." Writtwn in Ild Serbian language in VINČA ALPHABET and finding close by Tartaria Tablets dated to 5200b.c. in Tartar, Romania in Vinča signs. Today a Serbian migration of 7th century is proven wrong but some are still repeating it just like wikipedia where alomost everything is wrong. But with Momir's Illyade and Odyssey we know when iy was translated into greek but some people say we dont know from which language it was translated, which is idiotic, we know it was OLD SERBIAN LANGUAGE the inly language spoken in balkan before anceators of greeks came to balkan in 1500b.c.
As per the Oracle of Delphi - the most authoritative information center of the ancient Greek world: "Ἕδος δ' Ἰθακησίος ἐστίν, Τηλέμαχος δὲ πατὴρ καὶ Νεστορέη Ἐπικάστη μήτηρ, ἥ μιν ἔτικτε βροτῶν πολὺ πάνσοφον ἄνδρα. Οὗτος ἐγεννήθη φάος τ' ἐς ἀνθρώπους ἤγειρε." Meaning: “He is from Ithaca, Telemachus is his father and Epikaste (Polykaste in the Odyssey) is his mother, of all the mortals they bore the most wise man. He was born enlightened and will bring knowledge to mortals." Telemachus: The son of Odysseus Epikaste: The youngest daughter of Nestor There are at least 15 to 20 mentions by Greek and Roman authors that tell a different story. If you can read the book at the provided link you will know all these references: www.stipsi.gr/alphabet/pdf/ana-tziropulu.pdf
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A good reminder for me to pick Homer up. I've gotten familiar with The Iliad and The Odyssey during secondary school, but want to explore Homer's work a bit more
+Marieke Mills They're wonderful! I keep meaning to go back and read them in full (the last time I did was probably 15 years ago) but there's just so much other good stuff to read, too!
@@BookwormHistory It means you're in your 30s ........
I feel kind of ashamed to admit that I've never wondered if Troy was a real thing or not! Interesting! Great vid! looking forward to the next one!
I think it’s real and Homer based on it to write illiad
Oral poetry is still alive in non Anglo ruled/born nations! I'm Aussie but my parents country/culture has a very high regard to it, and we have poets at almost every significant part of life: birth, weddings, and death.
Fascinating episode, love the podcast style of these videos. Looking forward to watching some of the others.
+Knowledge Lost Thanks so much! I like what you're doing over on your channel as well! Welcome!
Thanks, look forward to checking out some of your older videos
Knowing that Troy could be fictional is the same trauma I got from the inexistent of tooth fairy. *cries
There are some good podcasts with lots more info about, not only Homer, but the whole Epic Cycle and the Greek dramas that go along with it.
My favorite is Doug Metzger's Literature and History podcast; I believe Doug is a Prof at UC Davis. Doug's podcast is great and he's been taking us through much of the ancient literature and not just that from ancient Greece.
Trojan War: The Podcast with Jeff Wright is also very good, he begins at the beginning and tells about Zeus throwing a wedding party and Eris delivering the apple of discord that begins the whole miserable thing. In each subsequent podcast Wright tells the story of the war in segments with his own commentary at the end of each podcast.
The Ancient Greece Podcast is one that I hear good stuff about, though frankly have only found time to listen to one episode because I've been busy.
Anyway, I'm happy to have found your TH-cam channel, cause I dig this kinda stuff.
Nice video! I knew the "Homeric question(s)" was a thing, but before I watched this video I was leaning toward thinking he existed and that he basically wrote the Iliad and Odyssey as we know them today. Now I'm leaning toward neither of those being true. Which makes me a little sad, but better to know the truth. :)
+Paul Kennedy I know exactly what you mean! In my heart, I still prefer the story of the blind old man, wandering ancient Greece, singing his songs every night in the city center to a mystified public. The truth is fascinating as well, and I'm glad I read more into it, but it does make me feel, as Coleridge wrote so eloquently, "a sadder and a wiser man".
The Illiad and The Odyssey are such huge books with thousands of lines, all with the same distinctive style so I would guess it may well be one person.
Very well done, informative and helpful!
Homer wasn't bind (as some people claim that the name implies). Omiros Όμηρος) means held captive i.e., held as security that a certain treaty will be adhered to, a practice exercised as late as the 1800's between waring parties. Aparently, he was held captive as security in Smyrna (present day Izmir).
Does reading these books help build my vocabulary??
Yes my friend,
Read read read!
Interesting side note: the Doomsday Book lists an ancient name of (England)
as ~Troijugunae (sp?)
Which translates to "Troy-born"
... Think "tin isles" in Herodotos, etc.
Check Otto Jespersen if interested.
Just another misc piece of a puzzle which may never be resolved.
Fascinating stuff! I may have to do an episode on the Doomsday Book!
I am currently through half of this exact book/translation. I'm liking it so far, though it is a joke compared to the illiad.
Thank you so much for this!
Wasn't the entity known as "Shakespeare" much like this?
There was writing well before the Trojan war - Linear B and Linear A before that. You don'r sudenly develop the jewel that is Homeric Greek. Homer left his rapsodies in the cities he visited, surely written. on paper made from palm leaves (phenix) hence Phenician. Not letters by the Phoenitians whom didn't have vowels, hence no alphabet.
Very helpful
So which book should I read first
You could read either, as they are very different stories. The Iliad takes place first in the timeline, so it's generally considered to be the first book. But if the Odyssey sound more interesting to you, you certainly could start there without worrying about missing much.
BookwormHistory ok thank you
Do I have to have a dictionary when reading these books have??
Probably yes
or you could use a translated version
NICE!
Is it important if Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey ? Are the plays, thought to be by Shakespeare, any less great if they aren't by him ? In my opinion it's irrelevant. The play's (poem's) the thing.
I’m in the pool of thinking that the war was real and happened closer to our time, how many people died in world war 1, seriously the only thing documented more then war in history is what I would like to know. I believe the war was real, the heroes and kings and the only reason is how much information do we have about war and getting better at it vs every thing related to preserving life.
Not sure what translation to get.. Do you have any recommendation?
I recently read both these for the first time in the penguin clothbound classics, translated by E.V. Rieu and loved them - easy to read and follow (prose). I also read translations by Robert Fagles, also by penguin (verse) of both and they are a joy also. Would recommend either.
African Griots, who had fantastic memories and were considered to be historians, were not mentioned. There's an Egyptian story about a general that tricked a King. A story that's similar to the Trojan horse but the soldiers were hidden in huge baskets. A fake tribute. The story was obviously changed for dramatic effect.
Id like to think troy was real somthing tells me its gotta b
Illiade & Odissey WAS WRITTEN BY SERBIAN WRITER MOMIR whose name greeks wrongly spelled HOMER.
Both books were translated from Old Serbian language to Old Greek language by Greek King PIZISTRAT who payed translators to translate book from Old Serbian to Old Greek language in 5th century b.c. Main translator was ONAMAKRIT who was, as Pizistrat son found out, adding thing that were not in original Serbian text and that is why PIZISTRAT fired ONAMAKRIT, and this incident was written down that is how we know about it today.
In early 17 century Vatikan started a political propaganda gow Serbs are not natives and came to balkan in 7th century a.c.(WHICH IS A LIE) and Vatican discumunicated catholic priest Mauro Orbini for writing a truth in a book KINGDOM OF SLAVS where he wrote that in past all Salvs called themselves SERBS and that they are natives on balkan thousand years before ancestora of greeks-semitic-huritic Ahaians & Danaians came to Balkan or GRETIA- the land named after Serbian warrior class Greti/Geti/Goti (named after serbian verb Greti-to go, as warrior class which goes away to war in compariaon to Borci-fighters who stay in their home town and greeks sound B was written as D so Borci became in greek writing Dorci/Dorians, so Spartans were original Borci/Dorians who came to peoponez with leader of second Aryan campagne SERBO MAKERIDOV; Aryans named after Serbian pagan god of hunting Arion/Arey/Jarilo which was copied by Greeks into Ares god of war) so GRETI are Serbian warrior class living in Serbia/Gretia where they were majority as "greeks"/HELLENS only lived in bigger cities.
So stories of MOMIR/"HOMER" were stories of SERBIAN FOLKLORE and have nothing to do with muslims, a part of muslim Serbs just accepted islam in time of Ottoman conquest of balkan.
But imoprtant thing is that in time of TROYAN WAR "Greeks"/Hellens were not formed yet as ancestors of Hellens-Danaians, Ahaians came to balkan in 1500b.c. and in 900b.c the Hellenic nation was formed out of Danaians+Ahaians+Ethiopians Africans mixing with SERBIAN TRIBES Pelazgi named aftet serbian pagan goddess PELA, Serbian tribe Peloni named after serbian pagan god POLON (hellens copied him into Apolon), Serbian tribe ILLYRIANS named after serbian pagan god ILLIYA, Serbian tribe RASSENI/RASHANI/T-RACHANS named aftet serbian pagan goddess REASSA/RASSA/REA/GEA/GAJA/GAIA and so on...
So Homer real name was MOMIR and original language of ILLIADE ODISSEY & ENEIDE was Old SERBIAN LANGUAGE.
That is why in archeological dig in TEFTAR, Romania they found The Oldest Writting in OLD SERBIAN LANGUAGE dated to 5700b.c. with inscription:" Grandfather, son of your aon wants a country." Writtwn in Ild Serbian language in VINČA ALPHABET and finding close by Tartaria Tablets dated to 5200b.c. in Tartar, Romania in Vinča signs.
Today a Serbian migration of 7th century is proven wrong but some are still repeating it just like wikipedia where alomost everything is wrong. But with Momir's Illyade and Odyssey we know when iy was translated into greek but some people say we dont know from which language it was translated, which is idiotic, we know it was OLD SERBIAN LANGUAGE the inly language spoken in balkan before anceators of greeks came to balkan in 1500b.c.
Very boring books
Why?
As per the Oracle of Delphi - the most authoritative information center of the ancient Greek world:
"Ἕδος δ' Ἰθακησίος ἐστίν, Τηλέμαχος δὲ πατὴρ καὶ Νεστορέη Ἐπικάστη μήτηρ, ἥ μιν ἔτικτε βροτῶν πολὺ πάνσοφον ἄνδρα. Οὗτος ἐγεννήθη φάος τ' ἐς ἀνθρώπους ἤγειρε." Meaning: “He is from Ithaca, Telemachus is his father and Epikaste (Polykaste in the Odyssey) is his mother, of all the mortals they bore the most wise man. He was born enlightened and will bring knowledge to mortals."
Telemachus: The son of Odysseus
Epikaste: The youngest daughter of Nestor
There are at least 15 to 20 mentions by Greek and Roman authors that tell a different story. If you can read the book at the provided link you will know all these references: www.stipsi.gr/alphabet/pdf/ana-tziropulu.pdf