If P4A was your first fighting game, nothing matches it. Experimenting in training mode is a blast. The flexible jump cancels and simple motion inputs make you feel better than you are. It even has rolling, short hops, and a "back air" attack that feel like Smash games, even if their applications are different.
It feels a bit shakey to call Frametraps a "Low Reward" Option; Provided your opponent does actually mash, you are getting a nasty CH combo, which depending on the button you frametrapped with, could be even more rewarding than most traditional neutral hits. I get that you were looking at it from the angle of "breaking the opponent's defense", but I find it hard to leave the actual reward of doing so out of the equation when talking about the options like that. Good video!
@@R4Z0R98 You're probably talking about Chie DP because she can super cancel and do literally over 9000 damage.....On the PS3 edition. On the current edition (which existed in arcades for 7 years), they made it extremely difficult to even combo after DP. DP super cancel is also a thing but they do mediocre damage as a starter. On block, you need 100 meter or else you're dead. Persona characters are pressuring with huge buttons on top of disjointed persona moves so if they caught for doing DP or mash, they get hit really hard.
It depends on the game In a non anime fighter, say sf6, a frametrap will yield the highest reward often But in contrast, baiken in ggst season 2, got better reward off tk yozansen than she did off of her frametraps
BBTAG also has universal instant DPs, it works out very differently though due to the tag mechanics basically allowing any character to temporarily become a puppet fighter. Just be glad you don't have to build your pressure around +R Baiken's defensive kit. She can literally do special moves while trapped in blockstun.
Bbtag tought one button dps were so strong they made it so that getting hit after dping makes you unable to burst and usually that just kills you since bbtag is just the kind of game where having the right combo starter and a bit of meter means death
Persona's "one more" turn combat is a modification of Shin megami tensei's Press turn combat and is largely easier however both do require strategy. I think that's what they meant by a game for persona fans. The furious action is a strategy element. You need to be aware of it and plan accordingly or else you'll lose your turn and get combo'd yourself. Which actually is alot closer to the press turn system. Hit a weakness gain an action(same with one more) however if you hit something they nullify, block, or miss your attack now you've lost your entire turn(or half your actions depending on game) and your opponent can press their advantage and quite possibly kill you right then and there.
GBVSR free gang here. I'm playing to a point where I'm starting to learn about all the little things to open people up/defense myself during pressure situations like you showcase at the beginning. As I have an appreciation towards motion inputs, I try to input reversals the classic way from time to time regardless of the worthiness of it compares to easy inputs. Quickly learned that not spamming the skill button to make sure I DP between gaps or wake-up is another long-term skill I have to practice on, that is simply mitigated by easy inputs. With Brave Counter also in the game, the exchange will surely developed into a game of itself like the meta you laid down at the end. And as I stumble upon this video, I learn more nuances about this specific skill and its role in fighting game. It got the thinking more than just advantage/disadvantages of simple inputs.
Persona stick layout is very easy. A C B D AC is roll, unless you press down then it's short hop. Oh and it's back-turn in the air. AB is grab. CD is assault (overhead) BD is dp Then you have the 3 button inputs so ABC is One More cancel and BCD is burst. Simple. Easy. Clean
An awesome video. I play mostly 3d fighters and always had a problem "getting" anime fighters and this video does this really nicely. From the outsider's perspective the "infinite pressure" was really the most troubling part as as didn't understand what are my options and with the explanation given in the video I can somewhat understand at least what is my attacker trying to do and what should I be doing when attacking. You also kind of sold me on the Persona 4 arena because the way you explained the system and made it really understandable and also exciting that there are so many layers just because there is an instant DP.
The funny thing is that SNK fixed the DP motion in Fatal Fury 2/Special with Andy. They made QCF+P his DP and QCB+P his Fireball. And they rounded out his specials kit with two charge moves. Andy Bogard is probably one of the more accessible and interesting Shoto variants I've ever played. And I don't think I've run across another character like him since.
Compromise Solution: Make the simplified DP input just virtually input the DP motion and attack button as fast as possible. Puts everyone on the same footing with regards to input speed but keeps decision-making the same as a game with a physical DP input.
Blazblu crosstag litterally gives everyone a universal one button (A+D) instant DP. The downside is though that if it misses/gets baited and you get punished, you can't call in your partner to combo break until said combo is over. I love the game but I've taunted my friend who used crosstag as their gateway fighting game that they're gonna struggle in other games where he no longer has Instant DP as a crutch against pressure.
Great video! I haven't thought about it much until now, but the way pressure works in persona is kinda similar to how it works in Dengeki as well, as both games feature 1-button DPs (sort of-ish in dengeki's case), armored overheads and a larger focus on jump cancels. btw let me know if there are still people in europe who play this game, I know the steam version is kinda dead due to the forced input delay but like, I'd be really happy to play it again
I'd like to point out that even most universal "get off me" buttons, such as GG's dead angle attacks/yellow Roman cancels, also tend to cost meter. Interestingly, P4A also has one of those, called guard cancel attacks, because reasons.
I think you should play Mitsuru if you like frametraps. Her whole gameplan centers around conditioning people to tech throws and hit buttons so you can murder them with 5B. Though overall I agree frame trap pressure isn't as useful as opposed to other games across the cast in Persona.
Hey. Mind if you look at Idol Showdown? It's also a completely DP-less game (you'll only seeing directionals, double down, and quarter circles) but it seems to be working really well despite its lack of DP, a universal Overhead, and a bunch of wacky stuff that flavor the game nicely while also making you think twice about your actions - on offense or defense.
i feel like it would be interesting to hear from some of the developers of the original street fighter the thought process behind how they designed the srk input because it is really brilliant looking in depth at how these kinds of games work
Really interesting to see how everyone having a DP + easy DP at the same time can create such an entirely unique meta for a given game! As i've never played Persona I had no idea this is how people had to structure their pressure. This definitely makes me reconsider some of my opinions on the idea of "easy DPs" too now... Great video as always Bambo 😎
One uneducated guess of mine on why Project L is being cooked for so long because of the combination of simplified control AND tag system AND core combat of an anime fighter with easy chains and double jump and air dashing and all that jazz. Imagine the hell the devs have to go through to give the game some resemblance of a somewhat balance gameplay and not a broken mess where TOD combos are the norm.
stagger pressure is low reward because by itself, it will not stop an opponent from blocking. The attacking player needs to utilize other options effectively in order for stagger pressure to actually counter hit. Aside from that, it is more of a "checking to see what your opponent is doing on defense" tool rather than an actual thing meant to damage your opponent.
phantom breaker came out before p4a, and has auto combos and 1 button specials with no motions including dps. and you can even spot dodge or armor during blockstun. though I'm not sure if the original PB had hard, or quick style or had that. also should watch some daemon bride, arcana heart, nitroplus blasterz for games that don't need instant dps, but require a lot more dynamic block string pressure because of defensive mechanics.
I'm at 18:20 and I remember you mentioned Smash people watch your vids earlier so I'm gonna predict all this 'hitting and then jumping during your pressure' talk is gonna tie in to your FGC vs Smash: Landing a Hit video. Edit: Oh, I guess not.
18:28 “Is it possible” that this isn’t necessarily all that bad? Maybe the uniqueness of these airdashes and air throws during airtight pressure are a boon to the game rather than a detractor? Every other fighting game is traditionally in the ways described so far. Dragon punch DP’s, frame traps, etc. I don’t want every game to have 1 frame instant DP’s of course but I believe games can be designed around it and stand proud among the dozens of other wonderful fighting games. BBTag is probably my second favorite FG after DBZF and BBCF (the goat). If bbtag didn’t have 1 button DP’s it would be nearly impossible to escape the near instant left right side swapping multi character mixups. A game can have its 1 frame DP’s and it’s pressure too.
Great video, super interesting stuff, and it got me even more interested in Persona fighting. A question about the Persona DPs: Couldn't they just make sure the insta DPs always had 3 frames startup before invulnerability, so even if the input is instant, the move still allows for frame traps?
Glad you enjoyed the video! As for your question... Maybe that could help the issue of DPs during pressure, but that would also mean no invulnerable DPs on wakeup, which is crazy. You can still try and solve it further, but who knows what will come up!
You know, I'd love to see another video like this if a game ever comes out and makes frame data obvious with visual cues. Like, if a game made different hit sparks based on minus or plus block strings, how would that affect the fighting game? Would frame traps become MORE powerful based on baiting hits sparks? Would the info move too fast for a player to register it? Would the game be more reaction heavy or neutral heavy or both? Just an interesting thought.
Most people just develop knowledge from experience and looking for the moves that are unsafe. The hitsparks would help, but I think at high level, it wouldn't be as useful, because it'd turn into players keeping an eye out for the moves that are unsafe rather than looking for the sparks.
In addition to flash kick reversals, I think it's severely underappreciated how much of a difference it makes that sf6 Ken has an invincible lvl1 on qcb, while ryu's is on qcf. That alone probably moves Ken up a tier, as all the time during an opponent's blockstring you can be buffering lvl1 for a guaranteed 2000 damage and reset to neutral if your opponent ever tries a frame trap during their pressure. Ryu has an invincible lvl2 on qcb, but that is of course twice as expensive
12:37 This is a bit inaccurate, many characters have DP safe pressure techniques that forces opponents to hold it. Most characters get safejumps, some get massively disjointed and safe persona pressure (Velvet sisters, Yukiko) and some characters like Aigis at a top level can do completely DP safe 50/50s during entire pressure sequences. DPs are super strong in persona, but there are tons of option selects every character has to easily cover them while maintaining pressure.
I'd like to make a point regarding BBCF. There is no universal instant DP. There is, though, overdrive and overdrive raid. If you get OD'd through an option with long recovery you may potentially just eat a lot of unburstable damage. And it doesn't stop options that are OD vulnerable from being good. Same with GBVS. Having a DP or other kind of reversal makes you play a very different game thanks to easy input DP, but it doesn't stop options that lose to DP from being good... Unless your pressure gets very predictable and never respects reversals. I also feel like calling frametraps sidelined is very exaggerated, a good example in P4U would be Mitsuru relying on strike throw with the threat of 5B frametrap. Once again, sure, your opponent could be mashing DP during the whole blockstring, but it's not like the first hole you leave would be a frametrap or jump cancel. Some frametrap points also have the option of you just doing nothing and beating dp. Games like UNI have CS (1f invulnerable screenfreeze with no recovery) which is arguably a much worse threat to pressure gaps than instant DPs are, and they still are very good pressure options there. Good video regardless, I just feel like it's a bit oversimplifying the issue.
I dont see how instant dp's will throw many people off... its like "ok sure... if the gameplay is good ill deal with it".. i doubt many people are quitting GGST because of wild assault and if they are then there are prob combinations of other things that cause it. Even then we wouldnt know how bad or good it would be to make the game easier for an audience who prob has no experience. Even in bbtag where every single character has a dp... i have yet to see people complain about it much
as someone that has a friend that basically only plays KOF and MK, u would be surprised how mad he gets when he has to adapt and learn to new rules because "thats not how FGs are supposed to be"
@@meatpuppyvt for whatever reason, I've seen 100x as much of this attitude in the FGC as in any other gaming community I've been a part of. The whole "my specific tastes are the objective standard that every game in the genre must conform to, and any change from that is failure" thing. It's weird.
I think this design philosophy comes from examining high level play, because high level players never miss the input. So the devs think they're only making it hard for new players and figure they just take the input out all together.
I'm a keyboard player. And as I know playing practically on a leverless controller I have an advantage with DP motion. It's easy motion on a keyboard or a hitbox.
I have the opposite problem with DP motions as opposed to accidentally dropping them, where I accidentally input DP instead of a quarter circle because I forget to buffer after a forward motion during pressure like an idiot :P
i think frame traps can be pretty high reward depending on the game because i play sol badguy in guilty gear strive and i get a TOD off of pretty much any successful frame trap on him
Based on the years I played Smash Ultimate, Smash players have a totally different definition for what a frame trap is. Makes sense why, and that's fine.
My experience with fighting games is smash, umvc3 (I'm never touching that again), and casually playing a few other games here and there at a friend's house. I love persona for it's simplicity and I've been practicing it these past few months, i hate the damn Z motion so much because it hurts my thumb and the game never reads it. So I'm grateful for p4au. But soon i think I'm gonna go into undernight inbirth since i have it installed
From what I can see, the problem seems to be that instant DPs give invulneravility too soon? The balance with a Z motion is that you need at least 3 frames and up to 5 or maybe 6 if your input isn't the cleanest. Let's say a new game tries to implement single button DPs, but these DPs are invincible only between frames 6 and 12 for example. Would that be a reasonable middle ground between accessibility and utility?
Also one more thing, because I'm not good enough to be a blockstring enjoyer. Why is it so bad to be hit by a DP? Intuitively, they seem to be "the tool against pressure", they give the defending player something to do besides blocking. I know I may be missing something important, please do tell, I want to learn.
@@AofCastle Depends, but generally it’s bad because the pressuring player goes from being in an advantageous situation to neutral. Depending on the characters, hp, time, meter, etc this neutral can be anything from a “ok I’m still winning” to something very scary. Sometimes you get a combo off the DP, and sometimes that combo can kill you too. In all cases though, I think people get annoyed that they won neutral but dont get to press buttons as much as they thought they would.
@@noviedeos Let me be devil's advocate today. Why is it wrong to go back to neutral skipping all frame traps? For example, let's say we're in Guilty Gear, you're defending against Zato. In this case my hypothesis is that the Zato player would rather be hitting the attacks rather than being blocked while the defending player would love to escape the pressure; both players would want less of this blockstring. An instant DP would then force both players back to neutral, just because of the instant DP's existence. Like in the P4AU example, this is a butterfly effect, but I think it's a positive change rather than a bad/neutral change. Am I wrong here? If I am please let me know because I want to see how much other people's opinion differ from mine's on this topic.
@@AofCastle People get mad by people who are very eager to use them. Especially if they're easy to use. Especially online where it can be difficult to perfectly time offense to account for them. Even with rollback, if a rollback does happens you're attacking and then you suddenly got hit by a DP out of nowhere.
@@fortunes_youtube I can understand that. But I'd argue that missing a DP input can be as annoying. Though it is true that it's more frustrating to miss something because of something out of your control like the rollback than because of skill issue.
I don’t understand why nobody seems to have tried making DPs a quarter circle motion (to my knowledge, tell me if they have I want to play it). Even as a player who still struggles substantially with dp inputs I find quarter circles and even half circles to be trivial. Despite being easy and probably faster in practice, qc inputs are still a minimum of 3 frames. Idk why games always go from one of the hardest traditional inputs straight to one button instant invincibility. Half circle inputs are even 6 frame minimum. Another idea is to give the one button dps lowered invincibility specifically out of block.
DBFZ. Though, half circles for reversal, you can count the first 2 frames not mattering since 2>1 is still blocking. Most games today also accept 426 as a half circe so lowkey it's even easier to do half circle than quarter circle potentially.
I guess is not good for playing competitive, but hey it's funny to play with friends, I have heard that persona fans played this with their "not persona fans" friends and they have real fun, and also y have a friend that didn't even know any persona game but he buy this game because it was low price and he had a lot of fun
A shame that some games dont show character names in multiplayer I wanna know who the big sword dude is! Combos are also mostly filler and most players are fine with that so ...
i see two things with the video 1 it first shows it as a problem but then P4A player found a solution to it being jump canceling so i suposse its not a problem anymore 2 i just disagree on the charge input topic (respecfully) i play kagura and i fuck up the charge timing also it loses to other dps couse if they clash i cant trowh it again and you cant just use it on reaction couse of the 2 second charge so you are vulnerable to unblockeables or other top tier character crap by the way the input is opissite to the overhead charge input so you cant prepare the two at the same time all of this applys to the antiair too
Don't tell anyone, but I originally had a clip of debilitate/randomizer actually countering someone. The clip got replaced though - don't want anyone getting optimistic about Liz's defense!
I really don't get the idea that a DP HAS to take "three frames" to execute? The input itself is done on the player's end, it can be as fast or slow as they want as long as it's quick enough to register as a complete motion. I could just hold dash, hit 2->3, and that's a full DP motion. I know the time to hit two or three buttons isn't technically 'instant', but for all intents and purposes it's BASICALLY instantanious. You're not going to be able to read whether or not Ryu is going to do a Shoryuken because one frame of hitting forward just isn't enough information to react to. And anyone who's decent at the game isn't going to fumble the input or spend extra time or effort trying to remember how to do it. It feels like this would still just come down to the same basic fundamentals as always. You predict what your opponent's going to do and if you bait out a failed reaction then you're rewarded for it. The only real practical differences here is that it's more accessible to new players, and that it can auto-correct a cross-up based on the input. I mean, that's not nothing? Having an answer to cross-ups could matter. But I mean, just like everything else, it's a read check. You have to be prepared to feel out when your opponent is going to DP. You don't get to keep pressuring all match, the other player has a way to read YOUR moves and counter if you get careless. That's all ANY of this is. Just understanding the mechanics and baiting/predicting moves. So what's actually even the problem with any of this?
@@aaym2224 You keep saying "it's not fun" with just no proof or arguments around it at all. If we're talking about the difference between someone DP'ing you out of a string with an input and DP'ing you out of a string with something a new player can do. If we want to talk about what's 'fun' for new players then let's talk about getting pressured with a jump-in as you're stuck turtling in the corner because you're too new at Fighting Games to do DP's reliably to anti-air them. How is that supposed to be fun for them? I've never once heard someone 'love' being bullied by pressure when they don't feel like they have the tools to counter it. Which is why there's been an active push in modern fighting games to give tools to push attackers to neutral and reset positions so you can go from being bullied in the corner to actually playing the game on equal footing again. If someone, say, does a bad burst, then it's basically the same as whiffing a DP, just with WAY more utility since you can do it on hit. But I doubt you'd ever say we should remove Bursts from fighting games even though that instant easy command can also interrupt pressure strings and reset you to neutral. At the end of the day, all instant DPs really do is add accessibility to the game. And that genuinely does mean a lot to the countless new players that can't do Z motions reliably. Again, where is that actively a BAD thing here??? Why do you want to gatekeep new players so much instead of just letting them have the same tools everyone else does, whether they can use them successfully or not? You shouldn't be losing because you still suck at inputs, you should be losing because you mishandled fundamentals and made bad reads and poor decisions in the match, itself.
@@aaym2224 Why is "Weird pressure structures" even a bad thing? This is something neither you NOR the video can explain, it just boils down to "it's goofy". Okay. So fucking what? Is the scenario where someone jumps back to escape pressure just to get air-grabbed not also something that'd look goofy if they whiffed in the opening example??? It's such a weak argument. You keep saying "This wouldn't be fun" or "This isn't good", but you can't back up or actually explain ANY of these claims! If you're getting DP'd then that just means you're doing unsafe pressure and you should be mixing things up. It's such an easy fix that adds more diversity to the defending player's options as well as adding new decisions to the attacking player. That's why DPs as a concept being invincible on start-up is even really a thing in the first place? Why should new players not get that type of reversal, and why should it even matter if experienced players have to hit a basic command or not? It seems pretty hard to argue that giving these tools to people more accessibly just makes the game more accessible and interesting by giving a risk/reward tool to the opposite side during pressure, as well. Like I mentioned, these defensive tools have been added into modern fighting games more increasingly with time, and they've been pretty universally well accepted. This just wouldn't be any different than that. Because, like I also said, NOBODY has fun turtling in the corner waiting for a pressure string to finally end so they can actually play the game again.
@@aaym2224 The problem is the video just completely ignores the defender aspect and the struggle of newer players. Those are both extremely important when anyone decent at the game is going to be able to do this stuff consistently anyways. You keep ignoring that aspect. So many people playing Strive have been complaining about how easily matches snowball literally because of how good pressure is. You NEED reliable defensive options or you're barely even playing the game if you're locked down in pressure.
@@aaym2224 Because the technical barrier absolutely exists and we should take steps to address it. "beginners will struggle in any game regardless of the inputs" Like I've said multiple times now, the struggle shouldn't be because of the input. It should be because of mistakes you make in the actual game. Bad reads, flawed fundamentals, dropped conversions, etc. These are things you should be getting blown up for. If you know what you want to do but your inexperience with THE INPUT means you get blown up, then that just isn't a good scenario. It's never going to be fun for a new player to lose because they did a Heavy when they were trying to DP a jump-in or something. At lower levels, this accessibility makes a huge difference. And at higher levels, it honestly genuinely does not matter. You go in, you do your pressure string, and you just add the possibility of a DP into your calculations. If they get it then you're pushed into a more neutral situation as the defending player's reward for guessing right. If they fail then you, as the attacker, get to punish them for a full combo and you're rewarded for the engagement, instead. That type of risk/reward situation is unironically the basis of all fighting game mechanics.
@@aaym2224 All I'm seeing is someone bitching about 3 frames in a 30 fps genre (60fps at higher ends). I know that's extremely rude to say, but we're literally talking about 1/10 of a second here and you're suggesting that's more important than whether or not a new player can even use the move in the first place.
It sounds like blasphemy, but I do wonder about essentially injecting artificial input delay for a DP (or even any Modern-Controls input) done on "instant" buttons. You press the DP button(s), the game waits for, say, 4 frames, of make-believing you're doing a DP input, then a DP comes out. Maybe put an instant glow on the character to give it a feeling of responsiveness, but at 4 frames it'd be hard to spot anyway. Regardless, this accomplishes the mission to simplify the motions to try and grab players who'd be intimidated by them, but those players still need to have the foresight to know when to use the tool. Not quite the same as adding a startup, since they could "start" the move while knocked down to do a wakeup DP, for instance. But, as it would eat their inputs for a few frames, it also becomes unsafe to use in blockstring, restoring the conventional balance surrounding frame traps. And if somebody hates the feeling of getting artificially input delayed, then opting in for the motion input allows them to put fate in their own hands, as normal.
I don't think motions have much to do with the "Frame Trap Meta" in this game, because the function of the anti-airs would still be the same. Giving everyone access to this mechanic actually shows that the function of those DPs is very game-warping, not that the "fear of dropping DPs sometimes" would do much in the way of changing everyone's playstyle. I'd argue that changing the motions of these DPs would only change gameplay significantly if you gave 'em a Pretzel motion or those 720ºs, where it would then be obnoxious enough that even fewer people would try it. Hypothetically, simplifying a mechanic and then realizing it's ultra game-warping just to add motions to it instead of working on the mechanic itself would be missing the point, since now fewer people would force you to consider those options and that's about it. If anything it would take longer for someone to learn how to deal with those tactics, because it would be inconsistent. That's why so many DPs became fully invincible by spending meter in so many games, I'd say, since it allows everyone access to the same tool but adds an element of resource management that more experienced players will use better, but also not abuse. Also this is more of a personal gripe of mine with how people discuss motion inputs balancing games, but I'll say it anyways since I'm already here: When characters have normals more powerful than some of their special moves, it's not like we should be adding motion inputs to those as well right?
They don't, specifically because in Smash a "Frame Trap" refers to using a move to force an option out of your opponent (usually air dodge) that you can still cover with a different move. Joker's Up Air into Bair is a good example of this. This is a completely different interaction for what 2d Fighters refer to as frame traps, and they're more reliant on frame data than just good timing on the attacker's part. The act of frame trapping in a 2d fighter exists in Smash, but it's just called being safe on shield, not a frame trap.
Long time viewer, but it's my first time commenting here. Love your videos, & I was delighted to see on competitive Storm. Talking about this video, during the end, you mentioned how you sometimes have trouble hitting DPs & while sharing this, you showed the footage of MBTL. Well, I know, French Bread 'preserved' the abomination DP input of the 90s which plagues all Capcom games except for the Street Fighter III series which remedied it. While dabbling in the lab, & from some advice on the internet, I figured out how to hit consistent DPs in French Bread games & all 90s Capcom games. You probably have heard about how old school players hit their DPs. The input was 6323. Normally, if you try to hit DP in UNI & MBTL by going 623, the neutral after 6 shouldn't be more than 3 frames, otherwise you'll get a low attack. Even in UNI's training mode, they tell you to throw a fireball motion after a forward to get your DP. But 6323 is the real deal. In fact, it even negates the twitchy 3 frames & lesser neutral rule. You can hold 6 for infinity & then go 323 without ever going to neutral & you'll get your DP! Every. Single. Time. I was glad to figure this out but I hate that twitchy input. Thank God I'm not interested in those old games which use them. I hope this helps. Keep up the good work! Thanks!
2 good examples, at least to me, of a DP without a DP motion are in Guilty Gear Strive, both belonging to Anji Mito. One of these is "Kou" which is a forward fireball motion (QCFS/236S) that can be held to execute the character's gimmick (that being the ability to parry attacks), delay when the attack comes out, or be tapped to simply execute the move. Against an opponent on the ground, it does no damage, simply causing you to float upwards and towards the opponent. If the opponent is in the air, however, they're hit twice (guardcrushing them if they block the hits), opening them up for combos. The other DP is "Midare", which is a reverse fireball motion (QCBP/214P) that can only be executed out of your parry animation. The attack has full invulnerability, is +11 on block, guardcrushes on block, causes hard knockdown on hit (allowing you to set up Okizeme with Shitsu).
so you actually think frame traps are low reward? idk this look kinda threatening in arcsys game to me. this subject lowkey needs a video on it's own 😅
You’re wrap up at the end left out that anti-air is unblockable. It’s a combination of simplifying too many mechanics that lead here. I don’t think simplifying DP inputs alone makes SF feel like Persona.
I don’t like the DP in Persona 4. On the bright side itself chips so spamming will just kill you faster. But still it’s annoying And it feels like some DPs are better than others particularly Kenji, Yosuke and Mitsuru. But the shit I don’t like I am a Yukari main why is my DP such ass !? Random ass Sho player standing jabbing the air. Yukari DP I will clash into Sho 1 to 3 times and again I chip. It feels like a stupid 50-50 what is my solution? a mash DP and hope I win the exchange And if I lose that’s fatal damage !
Designing a game around the players miss inputting is bad game design. Since it’s harder for your opponent to mess up the input you could just try blocking the DP instead of doing a frame trap and punish it.
as i alwasy say, u cant balance a FG the same way as every other one if u change inputs to be more reliable each game is different, has it's own quirks and im here for it
also flash kicks aren't instant DPs, you still have to call out the gap with the up input, you can't just mash up and a button mid blockstun too because you'll either get hit for holding up, or you'll lose charge and thus lose the flash kick
good video but honestly i disagree with that base ruleset for anime fighters that states "use an overhead if they're not mashing, use a throw if they're waiting for overhead." In my opinion, pressure is more like: Frametrap to beat mashing, Mash to beat resets/grab, Reset/Grab to beat blocking, Block to beat frametraps. I don't see how whether a move has to be blocked high or low matters much in regards to pressure besides maybe being hard to react to.
No, what the author of this video said was pretty much right. Overheads in anime fighting games generally take the role of "shimmy" in strike/throw RPS. Many anime games use air dash as shimmy, thus they hit overhead.
when I first played this game like 12 years ago the manual air turnaround mechanic was what sold me. Best mechanic ever. imo. wish other fighters world adopt it. i was so fun.
If P4A was your first fighting game, nothing matches it. Experimenting in training mode is a blast. The flexible jump cancels and simple motion inputs make you feel better than you are. It even has rolling, short hops, and a "back air" attack that feel like Smash games, even if their applications are different.
Actually, I think Idol Showdown is kind of similar - at least in terms of simple inputs and everything being jump cancellable
It feels a bit shakey to call Frametraps a "Low Reward" Option; Provided your opponent does actually mash, you are getting a nasty CH combo, which depending on the button you frametrapped with, could be even more rewarding than most traditional neutral hits. I get that you were looking at it from the angle of "breaking the opponent's defense", but I find it hard to leave the actual reward of doing so out of the equation when talking about the options like that. Good video!
frametraps in persona are low reward compared to the damage attached to DP's in that specific game.
@@R4Z0R98 Sure, but that statement was made in the context of anime fighters in general, not Persona.
@@R4Z0R98 You're probably talking about Chie DP because she can super cancel and do literally over 9000 damage.....On the PS3 edition.
On the current edition (which existed in arcades for 7 years), they made it extremely difficult to even combo after DP.
DP super cancel is also a thing but they do mediocre damage as a starter. On block, you need 100 meter or else you're dead.
Persona characters are pressuring with huge buttons on top of disjointed persona moves so if they caught for doing DP or mash, they get hit really hard.
Fair point! I was worried about using it for those exact reasons. I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say anyway, but you're pretty right!
It depends on the game
In a non anime fighter, say sf6, a frametrap will yield the highest reward often
But in contrast, baiken in ggst season 2, got better reward off tk yozansen than she did off of her frametraps
BBTAG also has universal instant DPs, it works out very differently though due to the tag mechanics basically allowing any character to temporarily become a puppet fighter. Just be glad you don't have to build your pressure around +R Baiken's defensive kit. She can literally do special moves while trapped in blockstun.
Bbtag tought one button dps were so strong they made it so that getting hit after dping makes you unable to burst and usually that just kills you since bbtag is just the kind of game where having the right combo starter and a bit of meter means death
+R baiken is bullshit
Sincerely, a jam main who had her entire kit blocked by baiken
@@V2ULTRAKill +r baiken main here quiet hattin and get gud
@@D00ML0RD1 cant get good when my buttons dont exist
@@V2ULTRAKill they still exist they just have unexpected consequences for being used XD.
Persona's "one more" turn combat is a modification of Shin megami tensei's Press turn combat and is largely easier however both do require strategy.
I think that's what they meant by a game for persona fans. The furious action is a strategy element. You need to be aware of it and plan accordingly or else you'll lose your turn and get combo'd yourself. Which actually is alot closer to the press turn system. Hit a weakness gain an action(same with one more) however if you hit something they nullify, block, or miss your attack now you've lost your entire turn(or half your actions depending on game) and your opponent can press their advantage and quite possibly kill you right then and there.
Honestly I really like this analysis
Persona Arena Ultimax is such a weird game that I adore. It’s a controlled chaos that is unlike any anime fighter I’ve seen.
GBVSR free gang here. I'm playing to a point where I'm starting to learn about all the little things to open people up/defense myself during pressure situations like you showcase at the beginning. As I have an appreciation towards motion inputs, I try to input reversals the classic way from time to time regardless of the worthiness of it compares to easy inputs. Quickly learned that not spamming the skill button to make sure I DP between gaps or wake-up is another long-term skill I have to practice on, that is simply mitigated by easy inputs. With Brave Counter also in the game, the exchange will surely developed into a game of itself like the meta you laid down at the end.
And as I stumble upon this video, I learn more nuances about this specific skill and its role in fighting game. It got the thinking more than just advantage/disadvantages of simple inputs.
Persona stick layout is very easy.
A C
B D
AC is roll, unless you press down then it's short hop. Oh and it's back-turn in the air.
AB is grab.
CD is assault (overhead)
BD is dp
Then you have the 3 button inputs so ABC is One More cancel and BCD is burst.
Simple. Easy. Clean
I like to use
A B C
D
so it becomes kinda gross to use without setting shortcuts.
@@GS_CCCI have big hands so the normal inputs hurt my hands over time. However not as much as it would hurt my brain if I used that set up 😂
An awesome video. I play mostly 3d fighters and always had a problem "getting" anime fighters and this video does this really nicely.
From the outsider's perspective the "infinite pressure" was really the most troubling part as as didn't understand what are my options and with the explanation given in the video I can somewhat understand at least what is my attacker trying to do and what should I be doing when attacking.
You also kind of sold me on the Persona 4 arena because the way you explained the system and made it really understandable and also exciting that there are so many layers just because there is an instant DP.
As a smash player..... This is too complex my brain crashed 5 mins in
they basically put up b out of shield in a 2D fighting game
Great video. I feel like my understanding of pressure has improved significantly
Fantastic video! As a gamedev plotting to make a fighting game, this kind of gameplay analysis is pure gold.
The funny thing is that SNK fixed the DP motion in Fatal Fury 2/Special with Andy. They made QCF+P his DP and QCB+P his Fireball. And they rounded out his specials kit with two charge moves.
Andy Bogard is probably one of the more accessible and interesting Shoto variants I've ever played. And I don't think I've run across another character like him since.
Compromise Solution: Make the simplified DP input just virtually input the DP motion and attack button as fast as possible. Puts everyone on the same footing with regards to input speed but keeps decision-making the same as a game with a physical DP input.
Would still be faster. 3 frames of "macro lag" is basically nothing
Been looking forward to this since you mentioned you were making it. Turned out great, my man! Keep up the fantastic work!
Thanks so much, man
Blazblu crosstag litterally gives everyone a universal one button (A+D) instant DP. The downside is though that if it misses/gets baited and you get punished, you can't call in your partner to combo break until said combo is over. I love the game but I've taunted my friend who used crosstag as their gateway fighting game that they're gonna struggle in other games where he no longer has Instant DP as a crutch against pressure.
The flash to granblue versus got a smile out of me despite being a fan nice one LMAO
Great video! I haven't thought about it much until now, but the way pressure works in persona is kinda similar to how it works in Dengeki as well, as both games feature 1-button DPs (sort of-ish in dengeki's case), armored overheads and a larger focus on jump cancels.
btw let me know if there are still people in europe who play this game, I know the steam version is kinda dead due to the forced input delay but like, I'd be really happy to play it again
I'd like to point out that even most universal "get off me" buttons, such as GG's dead angle attacks/yellow Roman cancels, also tend to cost meter. Interestingly, P4A also has one of those, called guard cancel attacks, because reasons.
big fan of the questions to my answers. keep it up.
I think you should play Mitsuru if you like frametraps. Her whole gameplan centers around conditioning people to tech throws and hit buttons so you can murder them with 5B. Though overall I agree frame trap pressure isn't as useful as opposed to other games across the cast in Persona.
Hey. Mind if you look at Idol Showdown? It's also a completely DP-less game (you'll only seeing directionals, double down, and quarter circles) but it seems to be working really well despite its lack of DP, a universal Overhead, and a bunch of wacky stuff that flavor the game nicely while also making you think twice about your actions - on offense or defense.
9:32 did he just shoot himself
Yes. Technically.
That's the main way to use your power in persona 3
i feel like it would be interesting to hear from some of the developers of the original street fighter the thought process behind how they designed the srk input because it is really brilliant looking in depth at how these kinds of games work
I don't know how youtube algortihm allowed me to see this video, but i just have to say I love your vids and great script & voice. Keep it up.
Wonderful, fantastic, insightful, unshakeable, great. I'll be jump grabbing in no time. Thanks for the video!
I am now convinced that P4A was a masterpiece.
Really interesting to see how everyone having a DP + easy DP at the same time can create such an entirely unique meta for a given game! As i've never played Persona I had no idea this is how people had to structure their pressure.
This definitely makes me reconsider some of my opinions on the idea of "easy DPs" too now...
Great video as always Bambo 😎
One uneducated guess of mine on why Project L is being cooked for so long because of the combination of simplified control AND tag system AND core combat of an anime fighter with easy chains and double jump and air dashing and all that jazz. Imagine the hell the devs have to go through to give the game some resemblance of a somewhat balance gameplay and not a broken mess where TOD combos are the norm.
Oh hey I'm in the video lmao. Very well made btw good job
How the fuck is pressure low reward. Depending on the character, your opponent can lose a shit ton of their HP bar if they make the wrong prediction.
stagger pressure is low reward because by itself, it will not stop an opponent from blocking. The attacking player needs to utilize other options effectively in order for stagger pressure to actually counter hit. Aside from that, it is more of a "checking to see what your opponent is doing on defense" tool rather than an actual thing meant to damage your opponent.
phantom breaker came out before p4a, and has auto combos and 1 button specials with no motions including dps. and you can even spot dodge or armor during blockstun. though I'm not sure if the original PB had hard, or quick style or had that.
also should watch some daemon bride, arcana heart, nitroplus blasterz for games that don't need instant dps, but require a lot more dynamic block string pressure because of defensive mechanics.
The DP motion is such a clever design in so many ways kinda sad some want it gone
I'm at 18:20 and I remember you mentioned Smash people watch your vids earlier so I'm gonna predict all this 'hitting and then jumping during your pressure' talk is gonna tie in to your FGC vs Smash: Landing a Hit video.
Edit: Oh, I guess not.
So in Persona 4 a DP doesn't use the DP motion, and doesn't act as an anti air, and has neither dragons nor punches in it. Got it.
18:28
“Is it possible” that this isn’t necessarily all that bad? Maybe the uniqueness of these airdashes and air throws during airtight pressure are a boon to the game rather than a detractor?
Every other fighting game is traditionally in the ways described so far. Dragon punch DP’s, frame traps, etc.
I don’t want every game to have 1 frame instant DP’s of course but I believe games can be designed around it and stand proud among the dozens of other wonderful fighting games.
BBTag is probably my second favorite FG after DBZF and BBCF (the goat).
If bbtag didn’t have 1 button DP’s it would be nearly impossible to escape the near instant left right side swapping multi character mixups.
A game can have its 1 frame DP’s and it’s pressure too.
Great video, super interesting stuff, and it got me even more interested in Persona fighting.
A question about the Persona DPs: Couldn't they just make sure the insta DPs always had 3 frames startup before invulnerability, so even if the input is instant, the move still allows for frame traps?
Glad you enjoyed the video! As for your question...
Maybe that could help the issue of DPs during pressure, but that would also mean no invulnerable DPs on wakeup, which is crazy. You can still try and solve it further, but who knows what will come up!
This is almost exactly how rolls work. Instant projectile invul, frame 3 strike invul, but uses movement to disengage instead
3:48 OKay... but as someone not in the know of what a DP is, like what it STANDS for... I still feel kind of clueless...
You know, I'd love to see another video like this if a game ever comes out and makes frame data obvious with visual cues. Like, if a game made different hit sparks based on minus or plus block strings, how would that affect the fighting game? Would frame traps become MORE powerful based on baiting hits sparks? Would the info move too fast for a player to register it? Would the game be more reaction heavy or neutral heavy or both? Just an interesting thought.
Most people just develop knowledge from experience and looking for the moves that are unsafe. The hitsparks would help, but I think at high level, it wouldn't be as useful, because it'd turn into players keeping an eye out for the moves that are unsafe rather than looking for the sparks.
The reason all-out attacks have superarmor is because it was the originator of drive impacts as well as autocombos.
In addition to flash kick reversals, I think it's severely underappreciated how much of a difference it makes that sf6 Ken has an invincible lvl1 on qcb, while ryu's is on qcf. That alone probably moves Ken up a tier, as all the time during an opponent's blockstring you can be buffering lvl1 for a guaranteed 2000 damage and reset to neutral if your opponent ever tries a frame trap during their pressure. Ryu has an invincible lvl2 on qcb, but that is of course twice as expensive
i normally learn as i go, but this makes me feel like i don’t want to be stupid anymore. Thanks!
12:37 This is a bit inaccurate, many characters have DP safe pressure techniques that forces opponents to hold it. Most characters get safejumps, some get massively disjointed and safe persona pressure (Velvet sisters, Yukiko) and some characters like Aigis at a top level can do completely DP safe 50/50s during entire pressure sequences. DPs are super strong in persona, but there are tons of option selects every character has to easily cover them while maintaining pressure.
I'd like to make a point regarding BBCF. There is no universal instant DP. There is, though, overdrive and overdrive raid. If you get OD'd through an option with long recovery you may potentially just eat a lot of unburstable damage. And it doesn't stop options that are OD vulnerable from being good. Same with GBVS. Having a DP or other kind of reversal makes you play a very different game thanks to easy input DP, but it doesn't stop options that lose to DP from being good... Unless your pressure gets very predictable and never respects reversals.
I also feel like calling frametraps sidelined is very exaggerated, a good example in P4U would be Mitsuru relying on strike throw with the threat of 5B frametrap. Once again, sure, your opponent could be mashing DP during the whole blockstring, but it's not like the first hole you leave would be a frametrap or jump cancel. Some frametrap points also have the option of you just doing nothing and beating dp. Games like UNI have CS (1f invulnerable screenfreeze with no recovery) which is arguably a much worse threat to pressure gaps than instant DPs are, and they still are very good pressure options there.
Good video regardless, I just feel like it's a bit oversimplifying the issue.
I dont see how instant dp's will throw many people off... its like "ok sure... if the gameplay is good ill deal with it".. i doubt many people are quitting GGST because of wild assault and if they are then there are prob combinations of other things that cause it.
Even then we wouldnt know how bad or good it would be to make the game easier for an audience who prob has no experience. Even in bbtag where every single character has a dp... i have yet to see people complain about it much
as someone that has a friend that basically only plays KOF and MK, u would be surprised how mad he gets when he has to adapt and learn to new rules because "thats not how FGs are supposed to be"
@@meatpuppyvt for whatever reason, I've seen 100x as much of this attitude in the FGC as in any other gaming community I've been a part of. The whole "my specific tastes are the objective standard that every game in the genre must conform to, and any change from that is failure" thing. It's weird.
Meanwhile fighterz removing charge inputs and super motions
I think this design philosophy comes from examining high level play, because high level players never miss the input. So the devs think they're only making it hard for new players and figure they just take the input out all together.
You're so wrong about all of this, it's cute.
The eddie clip had 3 overheads, any of those would have killed chip, that pressure is very much meant to catch him out
I'm a keyboard player.
And as I know playing practically on a leverless controller I have an advantage with DP motion. It's easy motion on a keyboard or a hitbox.
The biggest reason why the fuzzy jump airthrow OS exists in persona is that airthrows have such little recovery compared to other games.
I have the opposite problem with DP motions as opposed to accidentally dropping them, where I accidentally input DP instead of a quarter circle because I forget to buffer after a forward motion during pressure like an idiot :P
What's the song that played during the Kohaku segment tho
i think frame traps can be pretty high reward depending on the game because i play sol badguy in guilty gear strive and i get a TOD off of pretty much any successful frame trap on him
Love red sprouted memories, my comfort song ❤
do people in the wider fgc think smash players don't know what a frame trap is?
Based on the years I played Smash Ultimate, Smash players have a totally different definition for what a frame trap is. Makes sense why, and that's fine.
My experience with fighting games is smash, umvc3 (I'm never touching that again), and casually playing a few other games here and there at a friend's house. I love persona for it's simplicity and I've been practicing it these past few months, i hate the damn Z motion so much because it hurts my thumb and the game never reads it. So I'm grateful for p4au. But soon i think I'm gonna go into undernight inbirth since i have it installed
2:23 it’s called a punish in smash bros Ultimate
no, a frame trap LEADS to a punish or counter hit. A punish is the result, not the tech leading to the result
From what I can see, the problem seems to be that instant DPs give invulneravility too soon?
The balance with a Z motion is that you need at least 3 frames and up to 5 or maybe 6 if your input isn't the cleanest.
Let's say a new game tries to implement single button DPs, but these DPs are invincible only between frames 6 and 12 for example.
Would that be a reasonable middle ground between accessibility and utility?
Also one more thing, because I'm not good enough to be a blockstring enjoyer. Why is it so bad to be hit by a DP?
Intuitively, they seem to be "the tool against pressure", they give the defending player something to do besides blocking.
I know I may be missing something important, please do tell, I want to learn.
@@AofCastle
Depends, but generally it’s bad because the pressuring player goes from being in an advantageous situation to neutral. Depending on the characters, hp, time, meter, etc this neutral can be anything from a “ok I’m still winning” to something very scary. Sometimes you get a combo off the DP, and sometimes that combo can kill you too.
In all cases though, I think people
get annoyed that they won neutral but dont get to press buttons as much as they thought they would.
@@noviedeos Let me be devil's advocate today.
Why is it wrong to go back to neutral skipping all frame traps?
For example, let's say we're in Guilty Gear, you're defending against Zato. In this case my hypothesis is that the Zato player would rather be hitting the attacks rather than being blocked while the defending player would love to escape the pressure; both players would want less of this blockstring. An instant DP would then force both players back to neutral, just because of the instant DP's existence. Like in the P4AU example, this is a butterfly effect, but I think it's a positive change rather than a bad/neutral change.
Am I wrong here? If I am please let me know because I want to see how much other people's opinion differ from mine's on this topic.
@@AofCastle People get mad by people who are very eager to use them. Especially if they're easy to use. Especially online where it can be difficult to perfectly time offense to account for them.
Even with rollback, if a rollback does happens you're attacking and then you suddenly got hit by a DP out of nowhere.
@@fortunes_youtube I can understand that. But I'd argue that missing a DP input can be as annoying. Though it is true that it's more frustrating to miss something because of something out of your control like the rollback than because of skill issue.
Amazing video !!! Keep em comin !!
Interesting, in the context provided by this video, that Guilty Gear Strive lets grab beat DPs
yea, cos GG DPs are the strongest in any game since you can RC out of them and mix the offender. Strive especially.
@@Bruh-bi6yi definitely yeah, the grab vulnerability is a necessary one
I don’t understand why nobody seems to have tried making DPs a quarter circle motion (to my knowledge, tell me if they have I want to play it). Even as a player who still struggles substantially with dp inputs I find quarter circles and even half circles to be trivial. Despite being easy and probably faster in practice, qc inputs are still a minimum of 3 frames. Idk why games always go from one of the hardest traditional inputs straight to one button instant invincibility. Half circle inputs are even 6 frame minimum. Another idea is to give the one button dps lowered invincibility specifically out of block.
DBFZ.
Though, half circles for reversal, you can count the first 2 frames not mattering since 2>1 is still blocking. Most games today also accept 426 as a half circe so lowkey it's even easier to do half circle than quarter circle potentially.
I never have problem with 263 but I hate when they also include 236236 move on the same character...
You can't screw up a DP if you play a character without DP!
I guess is not good for playing competitive, but hey it's funny to play with friends, I have heard that persona fans played this with their "not persona fans" friends and they have real fun, and also y have a friend that didn't even know any persona game but he buy this game because it was low price and he had a lot of fun
I got this vid as a notification and I'm not even subbed, first time I hear of you, weird but good vid anyways keep it up
A shame that some games dont show character names in multiplayer I wanna know who the big sword dude is! Combos are also mostly filler and most players are fine with that so ...
I never liked Z motion.
i see two things with the video
1 it first shows it as a problem but then P4A player found a solution to it being jump canceling so i suposse its not a problem anymore
2 i just disagree on the charge input topic (respecfully) i play kagura and i fuck up the charge timing also it loses to other dps couse if they clash i cant trowh it again and you cant just use it on reaction couse of the 2 second charge so you are vulnerable to unblockeables or other top tier character crap by the way the input is opissite to the overhead charge input so you cant prepare the two at the same time all of this applys to the antiair too
Another video to remind me of Liz's phenomenal defenisve options, but hey at least we have Ghastly Wail am I right ?
Don't tell anyone, but I originally had a clip of debilitate/randomizer actually countering someone. The clip got replaced though - don't want anyone getting optimistic about Liz's defense!
9:41 granblue stray 😢
I really don't get the idea that a DP HAS to take "three frames" to execute? The input itself is done on the player's end, it can be as fast or slow as they want as long as it's quick enough to register as a complete motion. I could just hold dash, hit 2->3, and that's a full DP motion. I know the time to hit two or three buttons isn't technically 'instant', but for all intents and purposes it's BASICALLY instantanious. You're not going to be able to read whether or not Ryu is going to do a Shoryuken because one frame of hitting forward just isn't enough information to react to. And anyone who's decent at the game isn't going to fumble the input or spend extra time or effort trying to remember how to do it.
It feels like this would still just come down to the same basic fundamentals as always. You predict what your opponent's going to do and if you bait out a failed reaction then you're rewarded for it. The only real practical differences here is that it's more accessible to new players, and that it can auto-correct a cross-up based on the input.
I mean, that's not nothing? Having an answer to cross-ups could matter. But I mean, just like everything else, it's a read check. You have to be prepared to feel out when your opponent is going to DP. You don't get to keep pressuring all match, the other player has a way to read YOUR moves and counter if you get careless.
That's all ANY of this is. Just understanding the mechanics and baiting/predicting moves. So what's actually even the problem with any of this?
@@aaym2224 You keep saying "it's not fun" with just no proof or arguments around it at all. If we're talking about the difference between someone DP'ing you out of a string with an input and DP'ing you out of a string with something a new player can do.
If we want to talk about what's 'fun' for new players then let's talk about getting pressured with a jump-in as you're stuck turtling in the corner because you're too new at Fighting Games to do DP's reliably to anti-air them. How is that supposed to be fun for them? I've never once heard someone 'love' being bullied by pressure when they don't feel like they have the tools to counter it. Which is why there's been an active push in modern fighting games to give tools to push attackers to neutral and reset positions so you can go from being bullied in the corner to actually playing the game on equal footing again.
If someone, say, does a bad burst, then it's basically the same as whiffing a DP, just with WAY more utility since you can do it on hit. But I doubt you'd ever say we should remove Bursts from fighting games even though that instant easy command can also interrupt pressure strings and reset you to neutral.
At the end of the day, all instant DPs really do is add accessibility to the game. And that genuinely does mean a lot to the countless new players that can't do Z motions reliably.
Again, where is that actively a BAD thing here??? Why do you want to gatekeep new players so much instead of just letting them have the same tools everyone else does, whether they can use them successfully or not? You shouldn't be losing because you still suck at inputs, you should be losing because you mishandled fundamentals and made bad reads and poor decisions in the match, itself.
@@aaym2224 Why is "Weird pressure structures" even a bad thing? This is something neither you NOR the video can explain, it just boils down to "it's goofy".
Okay. So fucking what? Is the scenario where someone jumps back to escape pressure just to get air-grabbed not also something that'd look goofy if they whiffed in the opening example??? It's such a weak argument.
You keep saying "This wouldn't be fun" or "This isn't good", but you can't back up or actually explain ANY of these claims!
If you're getting DP'd then that just means you're doing unsafe pressure and you should be mixing things up. It's such an easy fix that adds more diversity to the defending player's options as well as adding new decisions to the attacking player. That's why DPs as a concept being invincible on start-up is even really a thing in the first place?
Why should new players not get that type of reversal, and why should it even matter if experienced players have to hit a basic command or not? It seems pretty hard to argue that giving these tools to people more accessibly just makes the game more accessible and interesting by giving a risk/reward tool to the opposite side during pressure, as well.
Like I mentioned, these defensive tools have been added into modern fighting games more increasingly with time, and they've been pretty universally well accepted. This just wouldn't be any different than that. Because, like I also said, NOBODY has fun turtling in the corner waiting for a pressure string to finally end so they can actually play the game again.
@@aaym2224 The problem is the video just completely ignores the defender aspect and the struggle of newer players. Those are both extremely important when anyone decent at the game is going to be able to do this stuff consistently anyways.
You keep ignoring that aspect. So many people playing Strive have been complaining about how easily matches snowball literally because of how good pressure is. You NEED reliable defensive options or you're barely even playing the game if you're locked down in pressure.
@@aaym2224 Because the technical barrier absolutely exists and we should take steps to address it.
"beginners will struggle in any game regardless of the inputs"
Like I've said multiple times now, the struggle shouldn't be because of the input. It should be because of mistakes you make in the actual game. Bad reads, flawed fundamentals, dropped conversions, etc. These are things you should be getting blown up for. If you know what you want to do but your inexperience with THE INPUT means you get blown up, then that just isn't a good scenario. It's never going to be fun for a new player to lose because they did a Heavy when they were trying to DP a jump-in or something.
At lower levels, this accessibility makes a huge difference. And at higher levels, it honestly genuinely does not matter. You go in, you do your pressure string, and you just add the possibility of a DP into your calculations. If they get it then you're pushed into a more neutral situation as the defending player's reward for guessing right. If they fail then you, as the attacker, get to punish them for a full combo and you're rewarded for the engagement, instead.
That type of risk/reward situation is unironically the basis of all fighting game mechanics.
@@aaym2224 All I'm seeing is someone bitching about 3 frames in a 30 fps genre (60fps at higher ends).
I know that's extremely rude to say, but we're literally talking about 1/10 of a second here and you're suggesting that's more important than whether or not a new player can even use the move in the first place.
TLDR: Malding because you cant run gorilla pressure for free
It sounds like blasphemy, but I do wonder about essentially injecting artificial input delay for a DP (or even any Modern-Controls input) done on "instant" buttons. You press the DP button(s), the game waits for, say, 4 frames, of make-believing you're doing a DP input, then a DP comes out. Maybe put an instant glow on the character to give it a feeling of responsiveness, but at 4 frames it'd be hard to spot anyway. Regardless, this accomplishes the mission to simplify the motions to try and grab players who'd be intimidated by them, but those players still need to have the foresight to know when to use the tool.
Not quite the same as adding a startup, since they could "start" the move while knocked down to do a wakeup DP, for instance. But, as it would eat their inputs for a few frames, it also becomes unsafe to use in blockstring, restoring the conventional balance surrounding frame traps.
And if somebody hates the feeling of getting artificially input delayed, then opting in for the motion input allows them to put fate in their own hands, as normal.
Frame traps vs thirst trap 😂
"Down,Down motion is easy"... Say this to sf6 Chun-li players ans se how well it goes.
as a liz main, i don't have a dp
I don't think motions have much to do with the "Frame Trap Meta" in this game, because the function of the anti-airs would still be the same. Giving everyone access to this mechanic actually shows that the function of those DPs is very game-warping, not that the "fear of dropping DPs sometimes" would do much in the way of changing everyone's playstyle. I'd argue that changing the motions of these DPs would only change gameplay significantly if you gave 'em a Pretzel motion or those 720ºs, where it would then be obnoxious enough that even fewer people would try it.
Hypothetically, simplifying a mechanic and then realizing it's ultra game-warping just to add motions to it instead of working on the mechanic itself would be missing the point, since now fewer people would force you to consider those options and that's about it. If anything it would take longer for someone to learn how to deal with those tactics, because it would be inconsistent. That's why so many DPs became fully invincible by spending meter in so many games, I'd say, since it allows everyone access to the same tool but adds an element of resource management that more experienced players will use better, but also not abuse.
Also this is more of a personal gripe of mine with how people discuss motion inputs balancing games, but I'll say it anyways since I'm already here: When characters have normals more powerful than some of their special moves, it's not like we should be adding motion inputs to those as well right?
my fix to this issue is remove dps entirely
Might jump back into P4AU
Definitely check out the "Persona Fight Club" Discord if you do!
Saying smash players don’t know about frame traps in 2023 is wild.
They don't, specifically because in Smash a "Frame Trap" refers to using a move to force an option out of your opponent (usually air dodge) that you can still cover with a different move. Joker's Up Air into Bair is a good example of this. This is a completely different interaction for what 2d Fighters refer to as frame traps, and they're more reliant on frame data than just good timing on the attacker's part. The act of frame trapping in a 2d fighter exists in Smash, but it's just called being safe on shield, not a frame trap.
I'd like to assure you smash players know what a frame trap is, but there are a lot of casual players in smash.
Long time viewer, but it's my first time commenting here. Love your videos, & I was delighted to see on competitive Storm. Talking about this video, during the end, you mentioned how you sometimes have trouble hitting DPs & while sharing this, you showed the footage of MBTL. Well, I know, French Bread 'preserved' the abomination DP input of the 90s which plagues all Capcom games except for the Street Fighter III series which remedied it.
While dabbling in the lab, & from some advice on the internet, I figured out how to hit consistent DPs in French Bread games & all 90s Capcom games. You probably have heard about how old school players hit their DPs. The input was 6323. Normally, if you try to hit DP in UNI & MBTL by going 623, the neutral after 6 shouldn't be more than 3 frames, otherwise you'll get a low attack. Even in UNI's training mode, they tell you to throw a fireball motion after a forward to get your DP. But 6323 is the real deal. In fact, it even negates the twitchy 3 frames & lesser neutral rule. You can hold 6 for infinity & then go 323 without ever going to neutral & you'll get your DP! Every. Single. Time. I was glad to figure this out but I hate that twitchy input. Thank God I'm not interested in those old games which use them. I hope this helps. Keep up the good work! Thanks!
2 good examples, at least to me, of a DP without a DP motion are in Guilty Gear Strive, both belonging to Anji Mito. One of these is "Kou" which is a forward fireball motion (QCFS/236S) that can be held to execute the character's gimmick (that being the ability to parry attacks), delay when the attack comes out, or be tapped to simply execute the move. Against an opponent on the ground, it does no damage, simply causing you to float upwards and towards the opponent. If the opponent is in the air, however, they're hit twice (guardcrushing them if they block the hits), opening them up for combos. The other DP is "Midare", which is a reverse fireball motion (QCBP/214P) that can only be executed out of your parry animation. The attack has full invulnerability, is +11 on block, guardcrushes on block, causes hard knockdown on hit (allowing you to set up Okizeme with Shitsu).
so you actually think frame traps are low reward? idk this look kinda threatening in arcsys game to me. this subject lowkey needs a video on it's own 😅
Bro I. Can't
How many other youtubers go by my name
You’re wrap up at the end left out that anti-air is unblockable. It’s a combination of simplifying too many mechanics that lead here. I don’t think simplifying DP inputs alone makes SF feel like Persona.
I don’t like the DP in Persona 4. On the bright side itself chips so spamming will just kill you faster. But still it’s annoying And it feels like some DPs are better than others particularly Kenji, Yosuke and Mitsuru. But the shit I don’t like I am a Yukari main why is my DP such ass !? Random ass Sho player standing jabbing the air. Yukari DP I will clash into Sho 1 to 3 times and again I chip. It feels like a stupid 50-50 what is my solution? a mash DP and hope I win the exchange And if I lose that’s fatal damage !
dragon punch
you have the voice of an anime character
Sooo... Whats dp again?
frame 1 invulnerable move, punishable on block
Designing a game around the players miss inputting is bad game design. Since it’s harder for your opponent to mess up the input you could just try blocking the DP instead of doing a frame trap and punish it.
And bbtag lol, bbtag doesn't have motion dps
Cool video 😎
kinda love how fucked up the game is, no other game like it and still plenty of peoples favorite game
as i alwasy say, u cant balance a FG the same way as every other one if u change inputs to be more reliable
each game is different, has it's own quirks and im here for it
dude thats crazy, universal mechanics change how the game plays compared to other games with different universal mechanics?????? who would have known!
also flash kicks aren't instant DPs, you still have to call out the gap with the up input, you can't just mash up and a button mid blockstun too because you'll either get hit for holding up, or you'll lose charge and thus lose the flash kick
@@derpybreads2212you can. On both pad and hitbox, you can hold down while mashing up and button to keep the down charge while blocking
good video but honestly i disagree with that base ruleset for anime fighters that states "use an overhead if they're not mashing, use a throw if they're waiting for overhead." In my opinion, pressure is more like:
Frametrap to beat mashing, Mash to beat resets/grab, Reset/Grab to beat blocking, Block to beat frametraps.
I don't see how whether a move has to be blocked high or low matters much in regards to pressure besides maybe being hard to react to.
No, what the author of this video said was pretty much right. Overheads in anime fighting games generally take the role of "shimmy" in strike/throw RPS. Many anime games use air dash as shimmy, thus they hit overhead.
when I first played this game like 12 years ago the manual air turnaround mechanic was what sold me. Best mechanic ever. imo. wish other fighters world adopt it. i was so fun.
God I hate 22 since mbaacc
they’re still dps dude you bait them out and kill them
DP motions sucks. It's literally a dated motion that works only 1 time out of 3 and often results in using a super instead of a DP.
found the scrub